The Belief of People

[M H Kahn]

Greetings,

Is that in Islam or in general?

My father is a Protestant and my mother is a Catholic, but due to the rule I mentioned above, I was brought up as a Catholic (i.e. my mother's religion).
I'm an atheist now, though, so that was a waste of time!

Peace

:hiding:
[PIE]Hi Czgibson![/PIE]
1. Could you explain in brief the the religious beliefs and worships of your dad and mom ?
2. Could you also state what has led you to atheism?

[czgibson]

Greetings M H Kahn,

Again, I'm going to have to go off-topic to answer these questions. Apologies to the mods.

1. Could you explain in brief the the religious beliefs and worships of your dad and mom ?

Sure. They're both Christians, although my mother is much more religious than my father. She's a Catholic; he's a Protestant. She goes to church every Sunday; he only goes to church at Christmas time, and maybe at Easter.

2. Could you also state what has led you to atheism?

I could write about this all day, but here's the basic outline: I first began to doubt that god existed at the age of five, when I found my mother's explanations of who or what god is less than convincing. We had just come back from church, and I had assumed that the priest was god, on a special visit to perform the service for us. That I could handle. When she told me that, no, he wasn't god, he was just a priest, I began to think "so who's god?". My mother told me that god is watching us all the time, but we can't see him; we return to him after we die if we're good, and all of that. I thought it was a joke at first, but gradually realised she was serious. From that point onwards I haven't been able to take the idea of god as anything other than a hypothesis based on wishful thinking.

So, from that stage you could say I was an agnostic. I was in doubt, but I wasn't totally sure that god didn't exist. At the age of eighteen I went to university to study English Literature and Philosophy. My studies there, particularly philosophy, convinced me that god was a fiction created by humans for various purposes. There hasn't been a major Western philosopher who has believed in god for about a century, and most modern-day academics are of the same view. Believing in god actually makes it difficult to understand important modern thinkers such as Nietzsche, Sartre and Russell.

Well, that's a very superficial explanation of what led me to atheism. There are deeper reasons, including suspicions raised while talking with religious people, and during my reading of Descartes and Kant, but if I got started on that I'd be here all day!

Peace

[M H Kahn]

[PIE]Hi Czgibson !
You've said about your parents : "They're both Christians, although my mother is much more religious than my father. She's a Catholic; he's a Protestant. She goes to church every Sunday; he only goes to church at Christmas time, and maybe at Easter."[/PIE]

It seems that you have not seriously thought over whether everything of the universe have cropped up by themselves or someone else, the God-- the Creator, has created and sustained the universe and everything in it. If there is one God, as you were told by your mom, He must have one set of law for the whole mankind of a time; and so, there is no scope for your two parents worshipping two gods or one God giving two different sets of law for the two.
Could you kindly take time to answer the following questions?

1. If there is only one God creating everything in the earth and in the heavens, and watching us all the time, then how are your two parents two different types of Christians?

2. Do they believe in two different gods or in one God only?

3. What do the churches and their priests do? Do they claim to be God's (or in case of many, gods') representative on earth?

4. What are the differences in the faith and worship of your two parents?

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Suddenly this thread seems to have become all about me! I feel embarrassed. Maybe these posts could be moved by a helpful mod...? I don't know what the new thread would be called - "the religious views of czgibson's parents" doesn't sound too interesting, does it?

It seems that you have not seriously thought over whether everything of the universe have cropped up by themselves or someone else, the God-- the Creator, has created and sustained the universe and everything in it.

What gives you this impression? You can't get through a philosophy degree without thinking long and hard about these kinds of questions!

Could you kindly take time to answer the following questions?

1. If there is only one God creating everything in the earth and in the heavens, and watching us all the time, then how are your two parents two different types of Christians?

I suppose you'd need to take it up with them! I think it could have something to do with the fact that most Christians don't take their religion very seriously - my father certainly doesn't, and my mother doesn't object to that.

2. Do they believe in two different gods or in one God only?

They believe in the same god, as all Christians do.

3. What do the churches and their priests do? Do they claim to be God's (or in case of many, gods') representative on earth?

Priests are kind of intermediaries to god. For instance, Catholic priests supposedly have the power to absolve you of your sins, if you repent that is. Also, Catholics believe that the Pope is god's representative on Earth. I don't know what Protestants believe - and neither do they half the time.

4. What are the differences in the faith and worship of your two parents?

There are several different types of Protestant - for the purposes of this discussion, when I use 'Protestant', I mean 'Church of England', which is the faith my father (allegedly) belongs to.

To answer this fully I'd need to give you a complete history of Christianity, which I don't have time to do. Basically, Catholics have to go to church once a week - Protestants don't. Catholics believe that when they have Holy Communion with bread and wine during the church service they are actually eating and drinking the body and blood of Jesus. Protestants believe the bread and wine that are used are merely a symbol to suggest this. Catholics tend to be more conservative when interpreting Christian doctrine - Protestants seem to change their minds all the time. This doesn't mean that Catholic doctrine is never changed though - for example, the Vatican decided in 1870 to enforce the view that Mary was born without sin, and continued in this state during her life; just last year they abolished Limbo, which was a sort of half-way house between heaven and hell.

Those are a few of the differences. Here's a webpage that discusses them in more depth:

http://www.geocities.com/aprofaith/

It discusses them from the perspective of "Which is the true church?", eventually settling on the Catholic Church. Of course, being an atheist, I think they're all wrong.

Here's another site that displays the differences using a table:

http://www.whiterobedmonks.org/schem2.html

I hope all that's of some interest to you.

Peace

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[M H Kahn]

Greetings,

Suddenly this thread seems to have become all about me! I feel embarrassed. Maybe these posts could be moved by a helpful mod...? I don't know what the new thread would be called - "the religious views of czgibson's parents" doesn't sound too interesting, does it?
Peace

Mankind was one nation having one religion:
Here is a verse from the Quran:"Mankind was one nation having one religion. Later when people invented other religions, Allah appointed Prophets as bearers of good news and warnings; and revealed to them the Book with the True Guidance to settle the matters of dispute between mankind. But the very people to whom it was given, started disputes after the clear arguments had come to them, because of rivalry between one another. Allah has guided the believers by His will to the truth in those matters in which they had differences. Allah guides whom He pleases towards the Right Way."[2:213]You may think over it.

[songinwind]

Greetings,

Suddenly this thread seems to have become all about me! I feel embarrassed. Maybe these posts could be moved by a helpful mod...? I don't know what the new thread would be called - "the religious views of czgibson's parents" doesn't sound too interesting, does it?



What gives you this impression? You can't get through a philosophy degree without thinking long and hard about these kinds of questions!



I suppose you'd need to take it up with them! I think it could have something to do with the fact that most Christians don't take their religion very seriously - my father certainly doesn't, and my mother doesn't object to that.



They believe in the same god, as all Christians do.



Priests are kind of intermediaries to god. For instance, Catholic priests supposedly have the power to absolve you of your sins, if you repent that is. Also, Catholics believe that the Pope is god's representative on Earth. I don't know what Protestants believe - and neither do they half the time.



There are several different types of Protestant - for the purposes of this discussion, when I use 'Protestant', I mean 'Church of England', which is the faith my father (allegedly) belongs to.

To answer this fully I'd need to give you a complete history of Christianity, which I don't have time to do. Basically, Catholics have to go to church once a week - Protestants don't. Catholics believe that when they have Holy Communion with bread and wine during the church service they are actually eating and drinking the body and blood of Jesus. Protestants believe the bread and wine that are used are merely a symbol to suggest this. Catholics tend to be more conservative when interpreting Christian doctrine - Protestants seem to change their minds all the time. This doesn't mean that Catholic doctrine is never changed though - for example, the Vatican decided in 1870 to enforce the view that Mary was born without sin, and continued in this state during her life; just last year they abolished Limbo, which was a sort of half-way house between heaven and hell.

Those are a few of the differences. Here's a webpage that discusses them in more depth:

http://www.geocities.com/aprofaith/

It discusses them from the perspective of "Which is the true church?", eventually settling on the Catholic Church. Of course, being an atheist, I think they're all wrong.

Here's another site that displays the differences using a table:

http://www.whiterobedmonks.org/schem2.html

I hope all that's of some interest to you.

Peace

For myself I find myself also reading what u are saying....and thinking back to before i reverted!!
Reading all this, I find myself even more grateful...that I am muslimah:)
Thank you for sharing...peace to you...

[M H Kahn]

MH Kahn

Your quote:
1. If there is only one God creating everything in the earth and in the heavens, and watching us all the time, then how are your two parents two different types of Christians?

One can also ask 'if there is only one God why are there Christians and Muslims'?

Obvioulsy neither there was in the past, nor now is, nor in future will be more than one divinely ordained code of life. This code of life has always been called 'Submission to God' and the followers 'Submitters to God'. Since the divine revelations were always made in the languages in which the Messengers spoke, the above phrases might have different sounds for difference of languages, but meaning remaining the same. Look at what God said about this in the Quran :

[PIE]"Mankind was one nation having one religion. Later when people invented other religions, Allah appointed Prophets as bearers of good news and warnings; and revealed to them the Book with the True Guidance to settle the matters of dispute between mankind. But the very people to whom it was given, started disputes after the clear arguments had come to them, because of rivalry between one another. Allah has guided the believers by His will to the truth in those matters in which they had differences. Allah guides whom He pleases towards the Right Way."[2:213]
:hiding: [/PIE]

[M H Kahn]

Hi Czgibson!
Thank you for the toil you have taken in answering my queries.

It seems that two different religious faiths and half-hearted observance of two different rites by your two parents about the same God might have reasonably appeared facetious to you. It also might be ridiculous to look at different peoples believing in so many ‘different gods' with ‘different traits’, and worshipping them in ‘different ways’; and yet, each people taking his religion as the correct one and all the rest as false or corrupted. Maybe in the backdrop of this scenario, you have chosen not to dive deep into a study or thinking to find if there is any real Creator, Who must be One and Only and Who must have prescribed a single code of faith and ritual worships for the entire mankind without the intercession of human beings like priests or such-like any other thing or being. On the contrary, you have chosen to stay unconcerned about it and trod along the easy path of atheism.

The Jews, the Christians and the Muslims have al least one common belief that there is a God the Only, Who created Adam, the first human, from clay and Eve, his wife, from him; and all other humans are their offsprings. If you believe this for a while and endure a little more to think that He will test them if they believe in Him and all His attributes. This we may call the ‘divine code of faith’ which includes that God is One and Only; He is the Creator and Sustainer of everything in the universe; He has angels to abide by His commands; He depends on none, rather everything else depends on Him. He is All-hearing and All-seeing; there is none in the earth or in the heavens having any share in His dominance or even an iota of influence on Him with regards to His administration in this world or in the Hereafter; He neither slumbers nor sleeps nor is He ever fatigued; He is kind and ever ready to forgive the sincere repenters. The Creator and His attributes being unchangeable, ‘the divine code of faith’ must have been the same for all time. If so, you may conclude with at least two alternative findings of which one must be true: (1) all the people living now on earth having so many religious faiths are false corrupted in their faiths; or (2) all the religious faiths are false or corrupted except the divinely ordained one which you do not know yet.

Now when one is able to know what is the only divine code of faith for all humans of all time, it becomes incumbent upon such believers to live his life according to the law given by Him, perform some ritual worships to Him and never assign directly or indirectly any associate or intermediary with Him either in faith or in worship. God may forgive any sins, however big it may be, of a person having untainted belief in the code of faith if he repents or even of His own will. But He will not forgive any sinner who associates any partner with or intermediary between him and Him. The laws relating to leading life in the earth and performing a few ritual worships may be best described in short as ‘the divine code of conduct’ which might have been changed, amended or extended from time to time. After the Day of Destruction, God will resurrect the humans and try them if they had lived this life according to His ordainments.

Now, how did God let the humans know His ordainments? He selected some from among them from time to time to be His best servant and messengers [such as Noah, Abraham, David, Yunuch, Dismal, Noses, Harun and Jesus; peace be upon them all.] They all preached the same message that the humans should worship none but God alone in the way they showed and that God has neither any associate nor any intermediary in worship. The humans including God’s Messengers will worship God directly and none shall not seek any spiritual help from any other than God alone. The Messengers and the messaged will be equally tried in the Hereafter and be rewarded or punished as God alone wishes. Could you let me know if you can think over what delineated above and come to that much belief that there is a One and Only Creator, Who alone should be worshipped directly by His Messengers and the messaged alike and they both be tried equally in the Hereafter under the same divine law ?

[Mohsin]

MH Kahn

Your quote:
1. If there is only one God creating everything in the earth and in the heavens, and watching us all the time, then how are your two parents two different types of Christians?

One can also ask 'if there is only one God why are there Christians and Muslims'?

There is only One God, and so there can only be one way of life.
Now islam is worshipping God without any partners according to the way God wants us to worship him
Someone who practices this is a muslim. So by definition Islam has been around since Man first stepped foot on earth, ie Adam was the first Muslim. similarly Moses PBUH and Jesus PBUh were also muslims sent By God telling of the same message as all other messengers had come with, including Muhammed PBUH. Moses PBUh never claimed to be a Jew, or starter of judaism, and similarly Jesus PBUH never claimed to be starting "Christianity". The early followers of these two messengers were righteous and by definition were muslims, as they were following the rules and laws from god
But generations later people for whatever reason changed the message, from the original, and so it was no longer "Islam" as it wasn't all from God anymoe and the followers gave it names such as Judaism, and Christianity etc
So God hasn't created more than one religion, he has always set "Islam" Submission to God by peace, but people have changed the scriptures and message, but God has said since Muhammed PBUH is the last messenger, the Qur'an won't be corrupted and the message will always be safe

There are many answers as to why God has let other religions be created, but really only God himself knows best
It could be to serve as a test, for people to find the true way from falsehood
Also, since this life is a test, god has allowed people to do evil, as the whole purpose of our life is to be judged for our deeds, if he didn't alloow evil to happen and changing of scriptures, then where would be the test?

In truth, all religions today have come originally from God, and say to worship one God, but somehwre along the way people have distorted the message. Even in Hindusim there are suggestions that it was originally "Islam", since it says worship god without partners, and even prophecises the coming of the last messenger Muhammed PBUH by name

Hope that answers your question

[M H Kahn]

For myself I find myself also reading what u are saying....and thinking back to before i reverted!!
Reading all this, I find myself even more grateful...that I am muslimah:)
Thank you for sharing...peace to you...

:sl:
What you've said is not clear, sister. Could you be a bit elaborative?

[czgibson]

Hello M H Kahn,

Hi Czgibson!
Thank you for the toil you have taken in answering my queries.

No problem. :)

It seems that two different religious faiths and half-hearted observance of two different rites by your two parents about the same God might have reasonably appeared facetious to you.

It wasn't the fact that they were half-hearted - I think you could only fairly say that about my father - my mother's very religious. It was her devotion to something that I saw as being imaginary that baffled me. Similarly, when I went to a Catholic school and was taught by Benedictine monks I was amazed at the dedication these men had made to their religion. I used to love R. E. lessons, because they gave me an opportunity to put forward my doubts and learn how to argue a case.

At no stage during any of this did I believe in god for a split second. It would have made things easier. I was surrounded by a community of believers - not just the monks, but all the other teachers, support staff and my fellow students too. If I had believed in god, then the twice weekly church services and twice daily prayers would not have seemed so meaningless and futile to me.

It also might be ridiculous to look at different peoples believing in so many ‘different gods' with ‘different traits’, and worshipping them in ‘different ways’; and yet, each people taking his religion as the correct one and all the rest as false or corrupted.

Bertrand Russell once said that it is not possible that all religions are true, but it is possible that they are all false.

Maybe in the backdrop of this scenario, you have chosen not to dive deep into a study or thinking to find if there is any real Creator, Who must be One and Only and Who must have prescribed a single code of faith and ritual worships for the entire mankind without the intercession of human beings like priests or such-like any other thing or being. On the contrary, you have chosen to stay unconcerned about it and trod along the easy path of atheism.

If I'd seen evidence to suggest such a being existed you'd be talking to a religious person right now - but there is none.

The Jews, the Christians and the Muslims have al least one common belief that there is a God the Only, Who created Adam, the first human, from clay and Eve, his wife, from him; and all other humans are their offsprings. If you believe this for a while and endure a little more to think that He will test them if they believe in Him and all His attributes.

I'm not suddenly going to believe something at your suggestion! Show me some evidence and I'll consider it.

If so, you may conclude with at least two alternative findings of which one must be true: (1) all the people living now on earth having so many religious faiths are false corrupted in their faiths; or (2) all the religious faiths are false or corrupted except the divinely ordained one which you do not know yet.

This is a false dilemma - a favourite salesperson's technique. Another option would be that all religions are false, full stop.

Could you let me know if you can think over what delineated above and come to that much belief that there is a One and Only Creator, Who alone should be worshipped directly by His Messengers and the messaged alike and they both be tried equally in the Hereafter under the same divine law ?

The rest of your post consists of assertions with no supporting evidence, and I've heard them before. There are so many things you mention there that I simply do not believe in: angels, the Hereafter, the Day of Destruction.

Thank you for the dawah; I can see you've put some effort in there, but it's very unlikely I'll ever become a theist, let alone a Muslim.

Greetings Moss,

Now islam is worshipping God without any partners according to the way God wants us to worship him
Someone who practices this is a muslim. So by definition Islam has been around since Man first stepped foot on earth, ie Adam was the first Muslim.

This is an interesting belief, although surely you would admit that the first Muslim consciously to enter the institution of Islam was not Adam, but actually the first person ever to recite the shahada?

There are many answers as to why God has let other religions be created, but really only God himself knows best

It could be that they were all made up by people of different cultures. Think of the thousands of religious beliefs that have existed throughout history. Think of the thousands of gods that no-one believes in anymore: Zeus, Bacchus, Baal...

Here's a partial list of gods that have been worshipped at one time or another (it includes Allah):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deities

Is it really possible that all of these beliefs are wrong, and yet yours is right? Or is it possible that they are all wrong, as I believe?

In truth, all religions today have come originally from God, and say to worship one God, but somehwre along the way people have distorted the message.

What "one God" are Buddhists taught to worship?

Peace

[shorouk]

just look around u... who created all this??? did it just pop up from out of nowhere??
wen u think with common sense ull see but unfort. common sense is not that common so just look around u see everythign with its complexity and beauty...

[abdul Majid]

"How do you know that the Quran is really from God?"

Answer:

Muslims have something that offers the most clear proof of all - The Holy Quran. There is no other book like it anywhere on earth. It is absolutely perfect in the Arabic language. It has no mistakes in grammar, meanings or context. The scientific evidences are well known around the entire world, even amongst non-Muslim scholars. Predictions in the Quran have come true; and its teachings are clearly for all people, all places and all times. No one has been able to produce a book like it, nor ten chapters like it, nor even one chapter like it. It was memorized by thousands of people during the lifetime of Muhammad, peace be upon him, and then this memorization was passed down from teacher to student for generation after generation, from mouth to ear and from one nation to another. Today every single Muslim has memorized some part of the Quran in the original Arabic language that it was revealed in over 1,400 years ago, even though most of them are not Arabs. There are over nine million (9,000,000) Muslims living on the earth today who have totally memorized the entire Quran, word for word, and can recite the entire Quran, in Arabic just as Muhammad, peacebe upon him, did 14 centuries ago.
All religions originated with Allah and then people began to add or take away from the teachings so as to take control over each other. Man made religions are an abomination before the Lord and will never be accepted. He will only accept true submission, obedience and in purity and peace to His commandments.


"Can you prove there is a God?"

Answer:
Can you prove that you exist? Yes, of course you can. You merely use your senses to determine that you can see, hear, feel, smell, taste and you have emotions as well. All of this is a part of your existence. But this is not how we perceive God in Islam. We can look to the things that He has created and the way that He cares for things and sustains us, to know that there is no doubt of His existence.

Think about this the next time that you are looking up at the moon or the stars on a clear night; could you drop a drinking glass on the sidewalk and expect that it would hit the ground and on impact it would not shatter, but it would divide up into little small drinking glasses, with iced tea in them? Of course not.

And then consider if a tornado came through a junkyard and tore through the old cars; would it leave behind a nice new Mercedes with the engine running and no parts left around? Naturally not.

Can a fast food restaurant operate itself without any people there? That's crazy for anyone to even think about.

After considering all of the above, how could we look to the universe above us through a telescope or observe the molecules in a microscope and then think that all of this came about as a result of a "big bang" or some "accident?"



"If there is only one God, then why are there so many religions?

Answer:
Allah does not force anyone to submit to Him. He has layed out a clear path and then made it known to them the two ways (Heaven or Hell). The person is always free to make his or her own choice. There is not complusion in the way of "Islam." Whoever choses to worship Allah without partners and is devoted to Him and is obeying His commands as much as possible, has grasped the firm handhold that will never break. Whoever denies God and choses some other way to worship or not to believe at all, for them there is an eternal punishment that is most horrible (Hell).

[songinwind]

:sl:
What you've said is not clear, sister. Could you be a bit elaborative?

All I was saying is how intresting that decussion became...and the reason being---is you 2 "decussed". and didn't argur...so it became so intresting to me..
The reason I stated how grateful I am to now be muslimah...is the confussion I read in his words, the very same confussion I felt before I reverted...Which is totally gone now..(all praise to Allah).............and if u 2 did go on and continue this in another forum, I'ed go and read, and learn, inshaAllah:)

[M H Kahn]

The Arabic words 'Islam' and 'Mulsim' mean 'Submission to God' and 'Submitter ot God'. Whoever submits to the will of God is a 'Submitter' or a 'Muslim'. Therefore, God's religion is always one, 'Submission to God'. Had all people knew what God's religion was or had there not been bad people to change God's religion by addition, substraction and modification to it, there would always been only the God's religion followed by all the people of the world.
In this regard, God says in the Quran:

Mankind was one nation having one religion. Later when people invented other religions, Allah appointed Prophets as bearers of good news and warnings; and revealed to them the Book with the True Guidance to settle the matters of dispute between mankind. But the very people to whom it was given, started disputes after the clear arguments had come to them, because of rivalry between one another. Allah has guided the believers by His will to the truth in those matters in which they had differences. Allah guides whom He pleases towards the Right Way.[2:213]

If we look at the people around us we find them divided into various sects or groups. Some call them Jew, some Hindu, some Buddhist, some Pagan, some Christian and some Muslim. But you will rarely find in a town or a village or in any other area that all the people belonging to any of the said group or splinter group have same faith about God's attributes and worship. The faith and conduct of most of the Muslim scholars in many countries are corrupted and varied among themselves. Some have invented different rituals and included them in the worship of God like composition of intention to be read before any act of worship, holding milad (reciting various poems in chorus praising the prophet with so many unauthentic qualifications) going to good people's grave and make supplication etc. Some scholars themselves imply that they are nearer to God and able to exercise God's power to some extent and they are worshipped by people who prostate them and/or lick their toes. So one will find that corruption has entered not only in the past in God's religion. Even large-scale corruption has taken place in Islam and it is still going on even though we have the Quran, the last book of God, remaining unchanged exactly as it was revealed.

So if there is any person willing to submit to God, it is he alone who has to strive to find out the true codes of faith and conduct that lead to the submission to God.There is the Quran for him and then he may study authentic Hadith, because there is allegation of corruption rampantly taken place in Hadiths.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

"How do you know that the Quran is really from God?"

Answer:

Muslims have something that offers the most clear proof of all - The Holy Quran.

Clearly a circular argument. Q: How do you know the Qur'an is from god? A: The Qur'an.

"Can you prove there is a God?"

Answer:
Can you prove that you exist? Yes, of course you can.

Actually, you can't. Your senses are part of you, so you would need to prove they exist before you could use them to begin to prove the rest of you exists. How do you know you're not a brain in a vat, for example?

The "Brain in a Vat" Thought Experiment

Think about this the next time that you are looking up at the moon or the stars on a clear night; could you drop a drinking glass on the sidewalk and expect that it would hit the ground and on impact it would not shatter, but it would divide up into little small drinking glasses, with iced tea in them? Of course not.

It's the argument from design once again.

After considering all of the above, how could we look to the universe above us through a telescope or observe the molecules in a microscope and then think that all of this came about as a result of a "big bang" or some "accident?"

The best evidence we have is that it started due to a Big Bang. If you want to insert god into the equation to cover all the gaps in our knowledge, that's fine, but be aware that there's no evidence to support the idea.

Whoever denies God and choses some other way to worship or not to believe at all, for them there is an eternal punishment that is most horrible (Hell).

Again, there's no evidence to support this idea. Hell seems to me to be an obvious fiction invented by primitive people to scare others into behaving morally.

Peace

[Duhaa]

Its not only the Qur'aan Muslims have but also the sayings of the Prophet which helps us understand the Qur'aan.
We believe that if you study the Qur'aan in depth then you'll come to the conclusion that no man could have invented it.
Hence the conclusion that it really is from God.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Its not only the Qur'aan Muslims have but also the sayings of the Prophet which helps us understand the Qur'aan.
We believe that if you study the Qur'aan in depth then you'll come to the conclusion that no man could have invented it.
Hence the conclusion that it really is from God.

I know. It's still a circular argument though.

Peace

[Duhaa]

I dont see it that way.
You see it as a circular argument and I dont.
I suppose the main difference is that I have faith (as a Muslim) and you dont.
No offence intended.
By faith I mean in God. I hope you understand the fact that because we are Muslims we believe all the things that have been mentioned simply because of our faith. We dont query it and we never doubt it. We just believe it.
Peace to you too bro.

[Snowflake]

Quote:
"Can you prove there is a God?"

Answer:
Can you prove that you exist? Yes, of course you can.


Actually, you can't. Your senses are part of you, so you would need to prove they exist before you could use them to begin to prove the rest of you exists. How do you know you're not a brain in a vat, for example?

Proof that God exists


The Big Bang theory showed that in the beginning all the objects in the universe were of one piece and then were parted. This fact, which was revealed by the Big Bang theory was stated in the Qur'an 14 centuries ago, when people had a very limited knowledge about the universe: "Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before We clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" [Al-Anbiyaa 21:30]

It is only in the 20th century that scientists discovered that the universe is expanding.

The expansion of the universe is one of the most important pieces of evidence that the universe was created out of nothing. Although this fact was not discovered by science until the 20th century, Allah has informed us of this reality in the Qur'an revealed 1,400 years ago: "It is We who have built the universe with (Our creative) power, and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it." [Az-Zariyat 51:47]

We read to him the Qur?aanic verse saying: And we sent down Iron, in which is Great might, as well as many benefits for mankind (Qur?aan 57-25).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The revelations in the Quran, could only have come from a divine source.
If the book is not a revelation, then it is a deception; and if it is a deception, one must ask, "What is its origin?
How could Muhammed have know about embryology, astronomy, about life and the origins of the universe, the sensory character of the skin, the condition of the chest in the Higher layers of space (that astronauts mention experiencing) and much much more?

The medical miracle of Quran ????? ?????? ??????

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/B...dex.htm#burden
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/GM_aq/#honey

The onus is on the critic to prove that if these revelations are not from God then where are they from??? Show your proof.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I dont see it that way.
You see it as a circular argument and I dont.
I suppose the main difference is that I have faith (as a Muslim) and you dont.
No offence intended.
By faith I mean in God. I hope you understand the fact that because we are Muslims we believe all the things that have been mentioned simply because of our faith. We dont query it and we never doubt it. We just believe it.
Peace to you too bro.

I question everything. That's the only way to learn!

Peace

[Snowflake]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duhaa
I dont see it that way.
You see it as a circular argument and I dont.
I suppose the main difference is that I have faith (as a Muslim) and you dont.
No offence intended.
By faith I mean in God. I hope you understand the fact that because we are Muslims we believe all the things that have been mentioned simply because of our faith. We dont query it and we never doubt it. We just believe it.
Peace to you too bro.

Right! Even if we queried it, there is substantial evidence in the Quran to answer all our questions. Imagine it's not only muslims, but non-muslim professors, scientists and scholars from all around the world who agree that all the facts in the Quran could not have come from anywhere but God Himself. :)

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Right! Even if we queried it, there is substantial evidence in the Quran to answer all our questions. Imagine it's not only muslims, but non-muslim professors, scientists and scholars from all around the world who agree that all the facts in the Quran could not have come from anywhere but God Himself. :)

So does that mean that all of those non-Muslim professors etc. have now converted to Islam?

Peace

[Snowflake]

Greetings,


So does that mean that all of those non-Muslim professors etc. have now converted to Islam?

Peace

Lol, no! Not all of them. Yet all agree that the Quran is indeed a divine revelation from God. :)

Things that I didn't know the Quran contained, I found in this link below. Totally awesome!
http://aolsearch.aol.co.uk/redir?urn...mazing%20quran

http://aolsearch.aol.co.uk/redir?urn...mazing%20quran

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Lol, no! Not all of them. Yet all agree that the Quran is indeed a divine revelation from God. :)

Hang on a minute. If they believe it comes from god, why would they not then convert? If they believe in god in the first place, and they now believe they've read a direct revelation from god, surely they would follow god's orders and become Muslim?

Peace

[abdul Majid]

Greetings,


Hang on a minute. If they believe it comes from god, why would they not then convert? If they believe in god in the first place, and they now believe they've read a direct revelation from god, surely they would follow god's orders and become Muslim?

Peace

hi cz

well you if it was that easy everybody would go to heaven, but the somethnig called the devil..lol..

there will always be people who believe and do good, and there will always be people who disbelieve and do wrong....until the last day..

MAY ALLAH(SWT) SAVE US ALL INSHALLAH...AMEM

[czgibson]

Greetings,

well you if it was that easy everybody would go to heaven, but the somethnig called the devil..lol..

there will always be people who believe and do good, and there will always be people who disbelieve and do wrong....until the last day..

OK, fine - but my point is that these guys (whoever they are) have announced that they believe the Qur'an to be the word of god. If that is what they do believe, then it's crazy for them not to become Muslim, surely?

Peace

[The Ruler]

Greetings,


OK, fine - but my point is that these guys (whoever they are) have announced that they believe the Qur'an to be the word of god. If that is what they do believe, then it's crazy for them not to become Muslim, surely?

Peace

ok i dunno who u r talking bout ere...but i once heard dat some ppl be liv dat Qur'an is da word of Alah but yet do not accept islam bcuz dey think it is hard to practice....dey accept wen dey v grown old bcuz den it is said dat ppl r forgiven for their sins wen dey reach da age of 70....i not sure if it meant all da sins but still.... dis particular saying makes some ppl accep islam wendey grow old although dey knew Qur'an is the word of Allah during their youth.

:w:

[Snowflake]

Yup! I backup sis Tagrid on that. To accept Islam, as a way of life, isn't the same as believing there is a God. Isn't that what we're trying to prove here?

Greetings,
Hang on a minute. If they believe it comes from god, why would they not then convert? If they believe in god in the first place, and they now believe they've read a direct revelation from god, surely they would follow god's orders and become Muslim?
Peace

It would seem a sensible thing to do, but believing in God does not mean one wants to live by God's laws. That is a personal choice.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Yup! I backup sis Tagrid on that. To accept Islam, as a way of life, isn't the same as believing there is a God. Isn't that what we're trying to prove here?

Close. Not only do these scientists believe in god, but apparently they believe the Qur'an is a direct message from him. My question is why they then haven't gone on to accept Islam. Surely that is the only logical course of action?

Now, I know that you don't have to answer for them - they need to explain it themselves - but the fact that they haven't converted to Islam must put some doubt into your mind over how sincere they were when they made the pronouncement that they believed the Qur'an to be the word of god. Is it possible they had a hidden motive for doing so? Or that they were misquoted?

Peace

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Callum,
I don't know if you ever saw my post in this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/181196-post29.html

It was related to this issue.
Regards

[Snowflake]

Greetings,


Close. Not only do these scientists believe in god, but apparently they believe the Qur'an is a direct message from him. My question is why they then haven't gone on to accept Islam. Surely that is the only logical course of action?

Now, I know that you don't have to answer for them - they need to explain it themselves - but the fact that they haven't converted to Islam must put some doubt into your mind over how sincere they were when they made the pronouncement that they believed the Qur'an to be the word of god. Is it possible they had a hidden motive for doing so? Or that they were misquoted?

Peace

You're right I can't answer for them.
I was going to quote references in my previous post of scientists, doctors, ministers, preachers, missionaries & other professionals who have converted after studying the Quran, but I didn't think it was necessary. If you like I can find them for you.

[Mohsin]

Greetings,


Close. Not only do these scientists believe in god, but apparently they believe the Qur'an is a direct message from him. My question is why they then haven't gone on to accept Islam. Surely that is the only logical course of action?

Now, I know that you don't have to answer for them - they need to explain it themselves - but the fact that they haven't converted to Islam must put some doubt into your mind over how sincere they were when they made the pronouncement that they believed the Qur'an to be the word of god. Is it possible they had a hidden motive for doing so? Or that they were misquoted?

Peace

Hi, well there are several that have converted that we know for sure like Dr Murraice Bucaile, Professor Tejatat Tejasen (http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-search.htm) see scientific comments.
Also these aren't misquotes, if you go to the above link thy have links to videos of them saying this

[Snowflake]

Thank you br Moss for that link. Wow I didn't know prof. Bucaile, had reverted too. SubhanAllah!

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I always thought Maurice Bucaille had become a Muslim but I never got the confirmation. I would be interested to know.

I would be interested to know this too. As far as I know he's remained a Catholic...

Peace

[M H Kahn]

Who Muslims Are:

All the people from the first human, Adam (pbuh), to those who will survive up to the Day of Destruction may be classed into (1) believers, (2) disbelievers and (3) misbelievers, of whom your husband was one. The believers were always in the past, they are now in the present and they will be in the future, known as Muslims, meaning submitters to God. ‘Islam’ and ‘Muslim’ are Arabic words for ‘submission’ and ‘submitter’ to God. The present day Muslims, who are guided by the Quran revealed to the final prophet, Muhammed (pbuh), have to believe invariably that all the previous messengers of God from Noah (pbuh) to Jesus (pbuh) also came with the same message that Muhammed (pbuh) was sent with. They all came with the message to ask the strayed humans of their times and climes to believe in God, Who had existed before there was any creation and will exist when the entire creation will be destroyed at His command. He is One and Only having neither any parent nor any children. He has no equal and He alone should be worshipped by the mankind. This is, in short, the message of Islam (meaning submission to the will of God) that all the messengers of God came with. Those who accepted the message without any concoction are believers, or for that matter, Muslims. Therefore, all the messengers of God from Noah (pbuh) to Muhammed (pbuh) are equally loved and respected by the submitters, meaning the Muslims.

The verses of the holy Quran were learnt by heart by Muhammed (pbuh) and his followers as soon as the same were revealed. The verses were at the same time preserved in writing, though not in the form of a complete book as it is available today. But the revelations were to be complied with at once as they were revealed. So it is very evident that when Muhammed (pbuh) addressed Jews, Christians as well as others, he called them all to follow the verses of the Quran that had already been revealed to him. The earlier prophets and the divine books revealed to them, which are not available now in unchanged form, were also sent with the same message of faith, as enunciated in the holy Quran, that God (Who in Arabic language is called Allah) is the sole Creator and Sustainer of everything in the universe and none but He should be worshipped and no partner should be associated with Him in the worship. But with lapse of time and for other reasons, many people moved away from the straight path of submission to God, Who Himself has, with regard to this, said in the Quran:

“He has ordained for you the same Deen (way of life - Islam) which He enjoined on Nüh - and which We have revealed to you O Muhammad - and which We enjoined on Abraham and Musa (Moses) and Isa (Jesus): ‘Establish the Deen of Al-Islam and make no division (sects) in it.’ Intolerable for the mushriks is that to which you O Muhammad call them. Allah chooses for His service whom He wills, and guides to His Way only those who turn to Him in repentance.”[42:13]

“Mankind was one nation having one religion. Later when people invented other religions, Allah appointed Prophets as bearers of good news and warnings; and revealed to them the Book with the True Guidance to settle the matters of dispute between mankind. But the very people to whom it was given started disputes after the clear arguments had come to them, because of rivalry between one another. Allah has guided the believers by His will to the truth in those matters in which they had differences. Allah guides whom He pleases towards the Right Way.” [2:213]

“If only the previous generations had some intelligent people who enjoined them from corruption, they would have been saved. But We saved a few of them, while the rest pursued their material things and became sinners. Your Lord never destroys any community unjustly while the people are righteous.” (11:116-117)

"We gave Moses the scripture, and subsequent to him we sent other messengers, and we gave Jesus, son of Mary, profound miracles and supported him with the Holy Spirit. Is it not a fact that everytime a messenger went to you with anything you disliked, your ego caused you to be arrogant? Some of them you rejected, and some of them you killed." 2"87

Though the basic teachings of all the prophets with regard to God and His worship was always the same, yet it is evident from the Quran that the nature and scope of formal worships, such as prayers, fasting, pilgrimage etc., sometimes changed with advent of new prophets, and it was always incumbent upon the mankind of any time to believe in all prophets, not to differentiate among them with respect to their status with Allah, and to abide by the divine code of conduct encoded in the latest book of divine law brought to them by the latest prophet. As the Quran is the latest divine book of law revealed to Muhammed (pbuh), the last of the prophets, after whom no further prophet will be sent by Allah, it is obligatory for all the humans on the earth, living from the time of Muhammed (pbuh) till the day of destruction, to live up to the law encoded in the Quran and guidelines given by Muhammed (pbuh). Even a human, claiming to be living according to the Quran and the guidelines of Allah’s messenger Mohammed (pbuh), cannot be a true submitter if he has any doubt or disrespect about earlier prophets and the divine books revealed to them. Similarly a human living on the earth from the time of Muhammed (pbuh) cannot be a true submitter or Muslim until he has believed in the Quran and the prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and lived his life according to the rulings of the Quran and traditions of Mohammed (pbuh). Actually humans are travelers in this life and the 'Home' is in the next life for eternity. We are here for a sojourn only and we cannot take anything with us from this life except our belief in God and our deeds. Thus, we should be living on the earth like travelers passing through a land without any attachment to it. As travelers on this journey, we must understand that the meaning of being alive in this world is to be tested and judged accordingly in the hereafter. Hence, there is suffering, joy, pain and elation; as Allah says:

“We shall surely test your steadfastness with fear and famine, with loss of property, life and produce. Give good news to those who endure with patience; who, when afflicted with calamity, say: ‘We belong to Allah and to Him we shall return.’ Such are the people on whom there are blessings and Mercy from Allah; and they are the ones that are rightly guided.” [2:155-157].

These tests of good and evil are intended to evoke our higher spiritual qualities. Yet, we are incapable of benefiting from these tests unless we do our best, have complete trust in God and patiently accept what He has destined for us. One basic object of Islam is the liberation of man from slavery of any other than God. This is why a submitter or a Muslim calls himself 'Abdullah', meaning the slave or servant of God because enslavement to God liberates him from all other forms of servitude. Although modern man may think that he is liberated, he is in fact a slave to his desires and is generally deceived by this worldly life. He is 'addicted' to wealth, sex, violence, intoxicants, etc. But above all, he is often seduced by the social system that tends to work through the invention of false needs, which he feels must be satisfied instantly. God says in the Qur'an:

“Thou wilt indeed find them, of all people, most greedy of life, even more than the idolaters: Each one of them wishes He could be given a life of a thousand years: But the grant of such life will not save him from (due) punishment. For God sees well all that they do. Say O Muhammad: "Whoever is the enemy of Jibrã'el (Gabriel) should know that he revealed this Qur'an to your heart by God’s command, which confirms previous scriptures, and is guidance and good news for the believers. Let them know that whoever is an enemy to God, His angels, His Messengers, Jibrã'el (Gabriel) and Mika‘el (Michael); Allah is an enemy to such unbelievers.”[2:96-98]

"Have you seen the one who takes as his god his own desire? Then would you be responsible for him? Or do you think that most of them hear or reason? They are not except as livestock. Rather, they are [even] more astray in [their] way. )” (25: 43-44)

“You (O Muhammad) are not there to compel them to believe. So admonish with this Qur’an every such person who fears My warning.” [50:45]

“Verily God hath bought of the Believers their lives and their properties for the price that theirs shall be the Paradise: so they fight in the way of Allah and slay and are slain. It (i.e. the promise of Paradise) is a covenant which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Injil and the Qur’an. And who is more faithful unto his covenant than God? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph.” (9: 111)

You are the best community ever raised among mankind; your duty is to command people to do good and prevent them from committing evil. [3: 110]

There is no priest or clergy in Islam; religious leaders or scholars are neither ordained persons, nor do they belong to any kind of leadership hierarchy. Rather, they are simply individual Muslims who have acquired more religious knowledge than the average believer. Allah enjoins upon you have to ask whatever you need for to Allah alone by yourself without any intermediary. There is no intermediary between the Creator and the creation. God’s messengers were warners only; they will also face the same trial like the messaged in the hereafter. So, if someone calls any messenger for help or asks Allah to grant him anything for the sake of the messenger, he will be associating the messenger with Allah and Allah has declared in the Quran that He will never forgive such sin. A believer, therefore, must remain vigilant that he does not associate any person or thing with Allah directly or indirectly either in faith or in any action.

Those people are disbelievers who do not believe that there is any only God, Who has creates and sustains everything in the heavens and in the earth, and Who will try us in the hereafter for our deeds done in this world. Thus if a person believes that there is more than the only God or there are subordinate gods under God, we can call him a disbeliever. A misbeliever is a wolf donned in Islamic garment; they tell verbally that God is one and Only, but invent new practices in Islam that were never done or told to be done by Muhammed (pbuh). They also invent stories conflicting with the Quran and falsely assign them as sayings of Muhammed (pbuh), and they worship him along with Allah especially in their supplication—a practice of associating him as a partner in Allah’s decision whether to forgive or not. They memorize the Quran and recite it nicely, but they abide very little by Allah’s warning of not associating any partner with Him. Instead of following the Quran and the ideals of Muhammed (pbuh) and shunning the fake Hadiths that conflict with the Quran, they very little bother to know the Quranic instructions or not to do anything that was not done by the prophet as worship. They run after fake stories falsely assigned to Muhammed (pbuh) and follow their misconceived scholars as idols. They are very punctual in salah (daily prayers), in soam (fasting), in zakah (compulsory alms-giving) and in hajj (pilgtimage to Makkah). But at the same time they worship the prophet whose name, they consider, plays a great role in Allah’s decision in forgiving the sinners. So, they invariably ask Allah in their supplications to forgive their sins FOR THE SAKE OF MOHAMMED (PBUH) and to SEND DURUD ON THEIR BEHALF TO THE GTAVE OF MOHAMMED (PBUH). They not only worship the prophet, some of them also worship the graves of great people and pretended saintly people. From a random survey conducted in Bangladesh, I have seldom come by any Muslim scholar who does not worship the prophet, especially in their belief that prophet’s name has a greatly favorable effect in Allah’s decision in forgiving sins. Most of the Muslim scholars of India and Pakistan as well as the mass people following them are also learnt to have the same misbelief. Both disbelievers and the misbelievers are supposed to be the residents of the hell in the hereafter.

[songinwind]

Greetings,


I would be interested to know this too. As far as I know he's remained a Catholic...

Peace

I went and read about this man...many thing---as I never heard of him before,and know much more now...
"Is Dr. Maurice Bucaille a Muslim?"....in all i was able to find and read,,,that answer seems hard to find...but did find one that points to a firm "no"...here is the link [link removed]
pray this is of help...and I also learned from this,,:)

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I went and read about this man...many thing---as I never heard of him before,and know much more now...
"Is Dr. Maurice Bucaille a Muslim?"....in all i was able to find and read,,,that answer seems hard to find...but did find one that points to a firm "no"...here is the link [link removed]
pray this is of help...and I also learned from this,,:)

I think that's an anti-Islamic site, isn't it? It would be better to find a neutral source, if such a thing is possible on this question...

Peace

[songinwind]

I went and read about this man...many thing---as I never heard of him before,and know much more now...
"Is Dr. Maurice Bucaille a Muslim?"....in all i was able to find and read,,,that answer seems hard to find...but did find one that points to a firm "no"...here is the link [link removed]
pray this is of help...and I also learned from this,,:)

I apolgy to the forum...i didn't relize my mistake with that link...

[songinwind]

Greetings,


I think that's an anti-Islamic site, isn't it? It would be better to find a neutral source, if such a thing is possible on this question...

Peace

That was my mistake, as i posted without thinking...But the bit i did read on this man...I don't care to read anymore..:) ...as we are warned about this, and i keep my deen tight with quran'/sunnah