Media and Religon

[azim]

Salamu alaykum.

I came across an interesting article written about events that happened near where I lived. I'd just like people to read it, and notice the way in which 'Christian' or 'Christiannity' were not mentioned in the whole article - despite it being very closely linked with the religion, and then to compare it with other articles written about Muslims, where religion isn't the focus in the events but is made the focus by placing 'Islamic' or 'Muslim' infront of names.

A bus driver who forced a woman to read the Bible before raping her has been jailed for nine years. Cardiff Crown Court heard that vicar's son Nicholas Vann, made the woman read from the Old Testament before forcing her to submit to his sexual demands.
Judge Stephen Hopkins called him a "sexual bully and sexual deviant".
Vann, 37, from Machen, south Wales, had denied rape and assault but was found guilty by a jury.

Vann's father Paul, who is a police chaplain and a vicar in Machen, was ejected from court for shouting at the judge as he passed sentence in the court. The trial heard that Nicholas Vann chatted up a passenger, 22, and later took her away to a seaside bed and breakfast.
Prosecutor Ieuan Morris said: "The pair went out for a meal but the evening soon turned sour. He forced himself upon her when they got back to the bed and breakfast.
"He grabbed her head, bent her over the bed and shouted: 'Read the Bible'. He had book-marked a page about women having to be submissive to men.
'Selfish and inconsiderate'
"He then forced her to have sex with him. He was forceful and perverted."
Judge Hopkins told Vann: "You are a controlling, selfish and inconsiderate man - a sexual bully and a sexual deviant.
"On the weekend at a seaside bed and breakfast you raped her and treated her as a sexual object for your own pleasure.
"You used the Bible to make her submit and she suffered for your beliefs."
Vann, a father-of-four, has been recently living at his parents' home.
He had insisted the pair enjoyed consensual sex but was found guilty by a jury last month.
Speaking after the sentencing Vann's father said: "I was very distressed. The judge was slamming my son so I told him he was wrong.
"I was ejected from the court and I have since written to Judge Hopkins apologising for my behaviour."

[HeiGou]

I came across an interesting article written about events that happened near where I lived. I'd just like people to read it, and notice the way in which 'Christian' or 'Christiannity' were not mentioned in the whole article - despite it being very closely linked with the religion, and then to compare it with other articles written about Muslims, where religion isn't the focus in the events but is made the focus by placing 'Islamic' or 'Muslim' infront of names.

Is this from the BBC website? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/4770422.stm?

You have missed a little bit - the title for instance. And while it is true that the words "Christian" and "Christianity" are not used, other Christian-specific terms are. Western audiences are ignorant of Muslims and so there is no point refering to Sufi pirs, but the media needs to dumb it down to "Muslims". The exact the same thing, but opposite (if you know what I mean) applies here - Western audiences know a lot about Christianity and so use a more sophisticated vocabulary. But the use of a term like "vicar" means Christian to anyone who knows anything. By my count, that is four references to the Bible and one to the Old Testament, two to vicars and one to a chaplain - specific Christian references all. Which is quite a lot for such a short article. So what is actually your beef here?

'Bible' rapist's nine years' jail
Nicholas Vann outside Cardiff Crown Court
The judge called father-of-four Nicholas Vann 'a sexual bully'
A bus driver who forced a woman to read the Bible before raping her has been jailed for nine years.

Cardiff Crown Court heard that vicar's son Nicholas Vann, made the woman read from the Old Testament before forcing her to submit to his sexual demands.

Judge Stephen Hopkins called him a "sexual bully and sexual deviant".

Vann, 37, from Machen, south Wales, had denied rape and assault but was found guilty by a jury.

Vann's father Paul, who is a police chaplain and a vicar in Machen, was ejected from court for shouting at the judge as he passed sentence in the court.

The trial heard that Nicholas Vann chatted up a passenger, 22, and later took her away to a seaside bed and breakfast.

Prosecutor Ieuan Morris said: "The pair went out for a meal but the evening soon turned sour. He forced himself upon her when they got back to the bed and breakfast.

"He grabbed her head, bent her over the bed and shouted: 'Read the Bible'. He had book-marked a page about women having to be submissive to men.

'Selfish and inconsiderate'

"He then forced her to have sex with him. He was forceful and perverted."

Judge Hopkins told Vann: "You are a controlling, selfish and inconsiderate man - a sexual bully and a sexual deviant.

"On the weekend at a seaside bed and breakfast you raped her and treated her as a sexual object for your own pleasure.

"You used the Bible to make her submit and she suffered for your beliefs."

Vann, a father-of-four, has been recently living at his parents' home.

He had insisted the pair enjoyed consensual sex but was found guilty by a jury last month.

Speaking after the sentencing Vann's father said: "I was very distressed. The judge was slamming my son so I told him he was wrong.

"I was ejected from the court and I have since written to Judge Hopkins apologising for my behaviour."

[HeiGou]

I came across an interesting article written about events that happened near where I lived. I'd just like people to read it, and notice the way in which 'Christian' or 'Christiannity' were not mentioned in the whole article - despite it being very closely linked with the religion, and then to compare it with other articles written about Muslims, where religion isn't the focus in the events but is made the focus by placing 'Islamic' or 'Muslim' infront of names.

By all means, let us compare it to articles written about Muslims. Can anyone spot the words "Muslims" or "Islam" or any specifically Muslim term in this article? And yet the crime was committed by Muslims with clear and specific anti-Semitic intent. So what is your complaint?

French police make kidnap arrests
French police have arrested 13 people suspected of kidnapping and torturing a young man to death, after luring him with an attractive woman.

The 23-year-old, identified only as Ilan, was discovered on Monday near a train station in the Paris suburbs.

The shop assistant, who was found naked, bound and gagged, and covered in burns died on the way to hospital. He went missing in January after a date with an unknown woman, who approached him at his workplace in central Paris.

Police said they had recorded at least four other similar kidnap attempts since December.

Twelve of those held overnight, aged 17 to 32, were arrested on an estate in the suburban town of Bagneux, where police say the victim was held and tortured. Another suspect was arrested in Belgium.

Lure

Ilan's kidnappers sent a 400,000 euro (£273,500; $475,000) ransom demand in e-mails and text messages to his family, which they were unable to raise.

The sum later dropped to 5,000 euros, after which the gang broke off contact.

The man was found on Monday morning near the Sainte-Genevieve-des-Bois train station.

On Thursday, a young blonde woman told police that she had recognised herself in a computer-generated portrait of a suspect circulated to the press.

She confirmed that she had been asked to entice several young men, but had not known why. She has also been detained.

Dangerous ringleader

Paris public prosecutor Jean-Claude Marin told a press conference that the presumed leader of the organised gang was still on the run, but that he had been identified and was "extremely dangerous".

Aged 26, he calls himself the "brain of the barbarians" and is thought to have had a number of "run-ins" with the law.

The kidnapping has alarmed France's Jewish community, since the victim worked in a Jewish neighbourhood in Paris, and he and several of the others targeted were Jewish.

However, the authorities have played down the likelihood of an anti-Semitic motive, although they have admitted not knowing why the gang carried out the attack.

[HeiGou]

I came across an interesting article written about events that happened near where I lived. I'd just like people to read it, and notice the way in which 'Christian' or 'Christiannity' were not mentioned in the whole article - despite it being very closely linked with the religion, and then to compare it with other articles written about Muslims, where religion isn't the focus in the events but is made the focus by placing 'Islamic' or 'Muslim' infront of names.

Perhaps you would like to compare it to this story from the British Telegraph?

What sort of name, do you think, is Yousef Bouhaddaou?

'I found husband dying after burglar attack'
By Duncan Gardham
(Filed: 08/03/2006)

The widow of a teacher who was stabbed through the heart by a burglar wept yesterday as she described the moment she found him lying in a pool of blood in their dining room.

Robert Symons, whose two young children were sleeping upstairs, was killed with a kitchen knife he had been given as a wedding present, the Old Bailey was told.

Yousef Bouhaddaou, 27, has admitted burgling the Symons' £1 million family home in Chiswick, West London, at an earlier hearing but denies murder.

The court heard that five weeks before the attack he had been released early from prison where he was serving a five-and-a-half year sentence, four of it for burglary.

Mr Symons' widow, Linda Davies, said she had rushed downstairs in her dressing gown when she heard her husband call her name.

"I leapt out of bed and started screaming that I was coming. I got to the top of the stairs and I was still screaming. I knew there was something wrong and probably someone in the house," she told the court.

Ms Davies said she saw a figure disappear out of the front door and shouted at him as he left. "I ran as fast as I could down the stairs to make sure the door was closed," she added.

"I saw Rob lying on the dining room floor. I went straight to him. There was blood all over Rob, he was groaning, he couldn't even talk.

"I tried to find out where the wound was and compress it because I thought that might help him stay alive."

The wound was so severe that it cut his rib and went through his heart and lung, the court was told.

Police and ambulance staff were unable to revive Mr Symons and he was declared dead less than 45 minutes later in hospital.

The court was shown a Sabatier kitchen knife found in a garden nearby and which had Mr Symons' blood on it.

The prosecution allege Bouhaddaou, from Notting Hill, west London opened the front door with a car aerial pushed through the letter box.

Mark Ellison, prosecuting, said there was nothing to suggest Mr Symons had tried to stop him from leaving but Bouhaddaou was desperate not to get caught.

"The front door would clearly have been an escape route," Mr Ellison added. "Equally the person coming downstairs would have been between it."

He added: "Any burglar may have wanted to escape when surprised inside someone's house in the middle of the night. But this defendant had an additional reason for wanting not to be identified or caught or convicted of this burglary offence.

"He would have been aware if he was convicted of committing another domestic burglary offence he would be likely to go to prison for much longer than the last time."

Ms Davies said she had met her husband, 45, when they were both 15 and although they had an on-off relationship when they were young, they met again in the mid-1990s and married in 1998.

"He was bright, intelligent, funny. We just wanted to have a nice life," she told the court.

The couple had woken to find two burglars in their home four years before the fatal attack, when they lived in Notting Hill, and Mr Symons had shouted at them from the top of the stairs.

Ms Davies, a photography teacher, said they had been travelling together and her husband had always steered clear of confrontation.

She said he did all the cooking in the house and enjoyed looking after their two children, who were three and four at the time. He had worked in various jobs before becoming a science teacher at Queens Park Community School, but Ms Davies said he found he was spending too much of his time disciplining the children and planned to give up two months after he was stabbed to death in October 2004.

On the day of the attack, Ms Davies had picked up their daughter from swimming practice and their au-pair had picked up their other child from school.

The family met back at their house at around 6pm and as Ms Davies put the children to bed, her husband cooked chicken stir-fry for his wife and her sister, Angela, and husband who were visiting.

It was around 4am that Mr Symons and his wife were woken by a noise downstairs.

"I said, 'Don't worry, it'll be Angie. She's probably making a cup of tea,'" Ms Davies told the court.

Mr Symons put his dressing gown on to go downstairs and check and his wife said: "I had no idea of the danger. I was waiting to hear him say, 'Are you OK, Angie? "I was thinking maybe I should get up and then I heard, 'Lin!'"

The trial continues.

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[azim]

Hei Gou, your missing the point. Whereas the articles you presented were committed by 'possbile' Muslims, they did not have religion as the focus.

How do you think an article where a muslim forced a women to read parts of the Quran before raping her would have been presented? No doubt there would have been comments made about the Islam oppression of women and the Hijab/Jilbaab etc...

As to the words 'Old Testament', 'Bible' and 'Vicar' being mentioned - they were integral to the story and it would have been more or less impossible to write without them.

[HeiGou]

Hei Gou, your missing the point. Whereas the articles you presented were committed by 'possbile' Muslims, they did not have religion as the focus.

I do not think I am missing the point. The original claim, as far as I remember, was that the Western media has an unfair fixation on Muslims and operated a double standard by high-lighting Islam and Muslims every time someone of Muslim origin committed a crime. Yet here is an article from a very right wing paper without the slightest mention of Islam.

How do you think an article where a muslim forced a women to read parts of the Quran before raping her would have been presented? No doubt there would have been comments made about the Islam oppression of women and the Hijab/Jilbaab etc...

Actually there has been exactly such a case in Australia and for months the mainstream media refused to acknowledge that there was any link with any specific ethnic community or people of a particular religious background. It was the internet and talk-back radio that pushed the story - to cries of racism - until eventually the Courts lifted suppression orders. See this article for instance

Racist rapes: Finally the truth comes out

By Miranda Devine
July 14 2002
The Sun-Herald

So now we know the facts, straight from the Supreme Court, that a group of Lebanese Muslim gang rapists from south-western Sydney hunted their victims on the basis of their ethnicity and subjected them to hours of degrading, dehumanising torture. The young women, and girls as young as 14, were "----s" and "Aussie pigs", the rapists said. So now that some of the perpetrators are in jail, will those people who cried racism and media "sensationalism" hang their heads in shame? Hardly.

The journalists, academics, legal brains and politicians who tried to claim last August that the gang rapes of south-western Sydney were just a run-of-the-mill police blotter story being beaten up by racists, scaremongers and political opportunists don't ever want to acknowledge the truth about that ugly episode in Australian history. They don't want to acknowledge the fear and tension that ran through a part of Sydney they rarely visit and can never understand.

This newspaper was the first to report the story, which had been common knowledge in police and media circles, and it has never censored the race element.

Even last week, with the conviction of two brothers for their part in the gang rape of Miss D, who was 16 when she was held at gunpoint in a Greenacre park, there were media outlets that downplayed the story and air-brushed race from it.

Yet the victims have been crying out for the truth to be told. In court on Friday, one victim gave another a card on which she had written

"Truth is Justice".

In August, when Judge Megan Latham handed out laughably lenient sentences to three men in one gang rape case, which were later more than doubled on appeal, she made a special point of debunking the race link: "There is no evidence before me of any racial element in the commission of these offences," she said. "There is nothing said or done by the offenders which provides the slightest basis for imputing to them some discrimination in terms of the nationality of their victims."

Except that later one of the victims complained her victim impact statement had been "censored" of any "ethnic" references by prosecutors intent on a plea bargain. She was convinced she was raped because of her ethnicity. "You deserve it because you're an Australian," the rapists told her during the five-hour attack.

It's just so inconvenient of the victims to insist on telling the truth.

"I looked in his eyes. I had never seen such indifference," one 18-year-old victim, codenamed Miss C, told the court, remembering one of the 14 men who called her "Aussie pig", gang raped her 25 times over a six-hour period in Bankstown and Chullora, and then turned a hose on her. "I'm going to f*** you Leb style," he said.

Fourteen gang rapists have been convicted, or pleaded guilty, thanks to the courage of seven victims who testified for days in court as their tormentors smirked nearby, the men's families threatened them and defence lawyers suggested they had enjoyed the rapes.

"They're very brave, very strong and very courageous young women," said Salvation Army Major Joyce Harmer, who held the hands of many of the victims through the trials. "They knew this was something they had to do."

There were encouraging signs by the end of the week that some Muslim community leaders were talking of "Muslims accepting responsibility that they may have failed to do things that would have prevented these things from happening", as Amjad Mehboob, chief executive for the Federation of Islamic Councils, told ABC Radio on Friday.

Keysar Trad, vice-president of the Lebanese Muslim Association, said: "It is certainly a disgrace to our community that people who were born to a Muslim family would commit such heinous crimes." But he went on to say it was "rather unfair" that the rapists' ethnicity had been reported "because these boys themselves have completely disaffiliated themselves from their culture or their religion".

Yes, it is unfair that the vast bulk of law-abiding Lebanese Muslim boys and men should be smeared by association. But their temporary discomfort may be necessary so that the powerful social tool of shame is applied to the families and communities that nurtured the rapists, gave them succour and brought them up with such a hatred of Australia's dominant culture and contempt for its women that they think of an 18-year-old girl, dressed for a job interview in her best suit, sitting on a train reading a book, as a ----.

These were racist crimes. They were hate crimes. The rapists chose their victims on the basis of race. That fact is crucial to this story. If the perpetrators had been Anglo-Celtic Australians, the furore would have been enormous. No newspaper would have left out that fact and you can bet the guilt and shame would have been spread far and wide.

As to the words 'Old Testament', 'Bible' and 'Vicar' being mentioned - they were integral to the story and it would have been more or less impossible to write without them.

Indeed. Except there was no need to go on about the guy's Father being a vicar. That was incidental to the story. And yet these words were used and they high-lighted the Christian nature of the attack. Comapre with the gang rapes in Sydney, or the torture-murder in Paris, where no one used the terms "Lebanese" or "Muslim" until public protests forced them to.

[azim]

[QUOTE]

I do not think I am missing the point. The original claim, as far as I remember, was that the Western media has an unfair fixation on Muslims and operated a double standard by high-lighting Islam and Muslims every time someone of Muslim origin committed a crime. Yet here is an article from a very right wing paper without the slightest mention of Islam.

No, my original claim was: -

I came across an interesting article written about events that happened near where I lived. I'd just like people to read it, and notice the way in which 'Christian' or 'Christiannity' were not mentioned in the whole article - despite it being very closely linked with the religion, and then to compare it with other articles written about Muslims, where religion isn't the focus in the events but is made the focus by placing 'Islamic' or 'Muslim' infront of names.

Actually there has been exactly such a case in Australia and for months the mainstream media refused to acknowledge that there was any link with any specific ethnic community or people of a particular religious background. It was the internet and talk-back radio that pushed the story - to cries of racism - until eventually the Courts lifted suppression orders. See this article for instance

The story was disgusting and shocking, something I wish no one ever has to go through. However, actions of the authorities aside, this was a racially motivated attack, not a religiously motivated attack. He said he was going to **** her 'leb' style. Where does Islam come into the motives of these men? Yet still, we see the Muslim communities mentioned. And why did they call them "Lebanese Muslim gang rapists", don't you feel 'Lebenese gang rapists' was enough? Why was the term Muslim placed in there? It is this precurso of 'Islamic' or 'Muslim' that I object to, which are often used completely uneccessarily.

[HeiGou]

The story was disgusting and shocking, something I wish no one ever has to go through. However, actions of the authorities aside, this was a racially motivated attack, not a religiously motivated attack. He said he was going to **** her 'leb' style. Where does Islam come into the motives of these men? Yet still, we see the Muslim communities mentioned. And why did they call them "Lebanese Muslim gang rapists", don't you feel 'Lebenese gang rapists' was enough? Why was the term Muslim placed in there? It is this precurso of 'Islamic' or 'Muslim' that I object to, which are often used completely uneccessarily.

Well Australia has a large Lebanese community. New South Wales, where the rapes took place, has a Lebanese Governor. Victoria, to the south, and the other major population center, also has a Lebanese Governor. It also has a Lebanese Premier. Can you tell me how to distinguish between the type of Lebanese these people are, and the type of Lebanese community those boys came from without using the words "Muslim", "Christian" or "Maronite"? They did not come from a generic "Lebanese" community. They came from a specific community that derives from Lebanon. What description is, in your opinion, acceptable?

And you miss the point - there is a religious element obviously - but the point is the suppression of any mention of their community. They were reported as "gang rapists", not "Lebanese gang rapists" and not "Lebanese Muslim gang rapists" due to the cultural sensitivity of the Australian press (I know it sounds funny but it is true). It was not until after the trial there was any discussion of the community that produced these boys even though everyone knew about it.

[Kittygyal]

U Knw Heigou Ur Jus Confusin Ppl!!!


Take Care

[HeiGou]

U Knw Heigou Ur Jus Confusin Ppl!!!

Really? I would like to think I am bringing some clarity. Why do you think that?

Let's play "Spot the Bigot Word" again - here is another article from a right-wing British newspaper. A fervently pro-Israel one too. If the media consistently works to demonise Muslims, the words "Muslim" or "Islam" ought to appear in this article. Can anyone spot any such words?

Teacher's killing was bad luck, says burglar
By Duncan Gardham
(Filed: 11/03/2006)

A career burglar high on crack cocaine who stabbed a teacher to death in his own home said yesterday that it was "bad luck".

Robert Symons
Robert Symons died from a six and a half inch stab wound

A court was told that 28-year-old Yousef Bouhaddaou had been smoking crack since he was 18.

He had served three sentences for burglary but was released early each time.

Robert Symons, 45, a science teacher whose two young children were sleeping upstairs, was killed with a kitchen knife when he came downstairs to investigate the break-in. He had been given the knife as a wedding present.

Bouhaddaou, who was released from prison five weeks earlier, admitted raiding the Symons's £1 million home in Chiswick, west London, but denied murder.

He claimed that Mr Symons fell on to a kitchen knife he had wrestled from him and added: "I just managed to get hold of the knife and he charged me backwards. I could feel my balance going and I didn't want to fall on to the floor. The knife went in like an accident. It was just bad luck."

The prosecution claims that Bouhaddaou, who had been released halfway through a five-year prison sentence, stabbed Mr Symons in a desperate attempt to flee the house.

Mr Symons died from a six and a half inch stab wound which cut through one of his ribs, sliced through part of his lung, and went straight through his heart.

Bouhaddaou denied that he was cornered and told the court: "I saw the silver of the knife blade. I thought he wanted to kill me.

"I knew what I was doing was wrong and I wanted to get the knife and make sure it didn't hurt me. When I did get the knife away from him it was a split second. He was pushing me back and the knife went in and everything slowed down."

Bouhaddaou denied he was frightened of returning to prison, where he had been serving a sentence for burglary and dangerous driving.

"The suggestion is ridiculous," he said. "I'm not willing to commit murder to get off a burglary."

He said he had stayed off drugs for four weeks after his release from prison but a week before the attack had started smoking crack cocaine again and by the time of the stabbing had a £120-a-day habit.

Bouhaddaou said he stopped to smoke crack as he searched for a suitable target in Airedale Road, Chiswick, West London, and halfway through the break-in, he left to smoke again.

CCTV footage from a house in the street showed Bouhaddaou walking up and down the street four times in more than an hour as he tried to break into houses.

He said he was looking for high-performance cars and wanted to get into the house so he could steal the keys.

The career burglar described using a bamboo cane to open the door through the letter box and then a car aerial bent into a hook to release the safety chain.

Bouhaddaou told the court he had started smoking cannabis and inhaling petrol and solvents when he was at school and first tried crack cocaine when he was 18.

Around the same time he took up burglary with a group of friends from his estate in Notting Hill, West London, spending the money on drugs and clothes.

The trial continues.

[azim]

Well Australia has a large Lebanese community. New South Wales, where the rapes took place, has a Lebanese Governor. Victoria, to the south, and the other major population center, also has a Lebanese Governor. It also has a Lebanese Premier. Can you tell me how to distinguish between the type of Lebanese these people are, and the type of Lebanese community those boys came from without using the words "Muslim", "Christian" or "Maronite"? They did not come from a generic "Lebanese" community. They came from a specific community that derives from Lebanon. What description is, in your opinion, acceptable?

So everytime a group is mentioned, their specific religious/geographic/ideological/racial etc... type must be mentioned? Not at all. Your argument is rather week, because your bringing several article where religion is not a motive but the perpratator is a Muslim - and even when you did, we found the nice little pre-modifier 'Muslim'.

And you miss the point - there is a religious element obviously - but the point is the suppression of any mention of their community. They were reported as "gang rapists", not "Lebanese gang rapists" and not "Lebanese Muslim gang rapists" due to the cultural sensitivity of the Australian press (I know it sounds funny but it is true). It was not until after the trial there was any discussion of the community that produced these boys even though everyone knew about it.

The point is the supression of its mention? Mmm, I thought we were talking about a Western trend of mentioning 'Islam' and 'Muslim' ferverently without the same done for any other religion. It's obvious why? It sells papers, brings viewers. A nice example is the Sun in the UK with 'Muslim' often plastered on the front pages "Muslim Drug Dealer etc..". It's a common and obvious trend - if don't refute it by bringing articles where religion isn't mentioned because I could quite easily bring 2 for every 1 you bring.

Secondly, 'there is a religious point - obviously' - perhaps it blew over my head but where exactly did religion come into the rapings (Lebenese one).

And the article you brought from a right-wing, pro-Israeli newspaper - what newspaper is it exactly?

[HeiGou]

Well Australia has a large Lebanese community. New South Wales, where the rapes took place, has a Lebanese Governor. Victoria, to the south, and the other major population center, also has a Lebanese Governor. It also has a Lebanese Premier. Can you tell me how to distinguish between the type of Lebanese these people are, and the type of Lebanese community those boys came from without using the words "Muslim", "Christian" or "Maronite"? They did not come from a generic "Lebanese" community. They came from a specific community that derives from Lebanon. What description is, in your opinion, acceptable?

So everytime a group is mentioned, their specific religious/geographic/ideological/racial etc... type must be mentioned? Not at all. Your argument is rather week, because your bringing several article where religion is not a motive but the perpratator is a Muslim - and even when you did, we found the nice little pre-modifier 'Muslim'.

That so neatly misses the point. You object to the term "Lebanese Muslim". Let us presuppose a situation where in this one instance, their specific racial or religious or geographical or whatever origin was important. How would you distinguish Lebanese from the sub-scommunity that produced these rapists from the Lebanese from the sub-community that produce, say, Ralph Nader? It is not a question of every time, but when you need to do it, how do you do it? These boys were from a specific sub-community of the Australian Lebanese population - how would you describe their origins if it were necessary?

Religion may have been a motive in all these articles. How do we know either way as it is not discussed? I am happy to agree it is unlikely, but in the case of the Gang Rapists it was a contributing factor as even the guilty claimed when they lectured the victims from the stand and when they claimed as a mitigating factor that Islam "primed" them to rape. Of course you can argue that this is a stupid claim, but it needs to be mentioned so it can be discussed.

[quote]

And you miss the point - there is a religious element obviously - but the point is the suppression of any mention of their community. They were reported as "gang rapists", not "Lebanese gang rapists" and not "Lebanese Muslim gang rapists" due to the cultural sensitivity of the Australian press (I know it sounds funny but it is true). It was not until after the trial there was any discussion of the community that produced these boys even though everyone knew about it.

The point is the supression of its mention? [quote]

As I said, cultural sensitivity - the need to avoid precisely what you are claiming. The left does not like racial or religious terms applied to criminals and usually the Australian media obliges.

Mmm, I thought we were talking about a Western trend of mentioning 'Islam' and 'Muslim' ferverently without the same done for any other religion. It's obvious why? It sells papers, brings viewers. A nice example is the Sun in the UK with 'Muslim' often plastered on the front pages "Muslim Drug Dealer etc..". It's a common and obvious trend - if don't refute it by bringing articles where religion isn't mentioned because I could quite easily bring 2 for every 1 you bring.

Ahh so it is the Sun that does it? You made a more blanket claim about all the Western media and I have trivially proven that even when Islam is a factor (as in the brutal torture murder of a French Jew) the media tends to try to avoid the term. At least the BBC and the Telegraph do. You have claimed that such a trend exists and I flatly deny it does. I can prove that it is not universal. How about proving the Sun does it?

Secondly, 'there is a religious point - obviously' - perhaps it blew over my head but where exactly did religion come into the rapings (Lebenese one).

They tried to use their religion as a mitigating factor and it was clear that their cultural attitudes were shaped, in part, by their understanding of their religion and that culture led them to rape. Maronites do not do this sort of thing in Australia.

And the article you brought from a right-wing, pro-Israeli newspaper - what newspaper is it exactly?

Conrad Black's London-based Telegraph

[HeiGou]

I came across an interesting article written about events that happened near where I lived. I'd just like people to read it, and notice the way in which 'Christian' or 'Christiannity' were not mentioned in the whole article - despite it being very closely linked with the religion, and then to compare it with other articles written about Muslims, where religion isn't the focus in the events but is made the focus by placing 'Islamic' or 'Muslim' infront of names.

Just in passing, to keep on beating that dead horse, I came across this, we have a bomb, we have a bomb plot, can anyone find any mention of Islam, Muslims, Muslim terrorists, Muslim criminals, anyone named Muhammed, anything?

Woman charged over bomb plot
By Vera Devai
March 25, 2006

A SYDNEY woman remained in custody tonight, accused of conspiring to bomb a public place.

Jill Courtney, 26, was arrested yesterday during raids on a number of southwest Sydney homes by New South Wales and Australian Federal Police (AFP).

The Casula woman has been charged with one count each of conspiracy to murder, and conspiracy to cause explosives to be placed in or near a public place between July 1 last year and yesterday.

Several homes in Casula and Hoxton Park were searched in connection with the alleged plot, the AFP said today.

Ms Courtney was not required to appear at Parramatta Bail Court today and her solicitor Adam Houda asked the matter be adjourned until Monday.

Mr Houda asked that his client be assessed by a psychiatrist before then.

"There is a little concern about her mental health," Mr Houda told the court.

There was no application for bail, which was formally refused.

The court ordered a psychiatric assessment be carried out before Monday, when Courtney will face Sydney's Central Local Court via video-link.

[azim]

You seem to be missing the point HeiGou. You're finding odd examples from random places and saying this is the norm (the stub you gave is when the news first comes out and information is scarce), have a look now, longer articles, sometimes longwinded discussions.

The point is that none of these articles you point have a CLEAR and UNAMBIGUOUS religous motive as the one of the Christian preacher who raped a women after forcing her to read verses of the Bible where women are talked badly about and Christianity wasn't even touched upon, forget about discussions regarding what the religion teaches. For example, child abuse cases in the Church are common, yet you never have people finding verses of the Bible and saying that child abuse is taught.

I doubt you're going to agree with me, but knock yourself out with the news article.

[vpb]

HeiGou, why don't they use instead of "MOSLEM" -> submitter??? if not, aren't they professional reporters that should know about what they're writing for?

[strider]

Assalamu alaikum

9 years isn't enough. He should have been hung, drawn and quartered.

Ma'assalama

[Knut Hamsun]

HeiGou, why don't they use instead of "MOSLEM" -> submitter???

Because they are reporters not translators.

[vpb]

a reporter or translator, it does not matter, you should know what u're writing or translating for.

[Knut Hamsun]

you should know what u're writing or translating for.

The reporters do know... Any followers of Islam call themselves MUSLIMS, why would the reporters do any differently?

[HeiGou]

You seem to be missing the point HeiGou. You're finding odd examples from random places and saying this is the norm (the stub you gave is when the news first comes out and information is scarce), have a look now, longer articles, sometimes longwinded discussions.

I'll make an effort and let you know what I come up with. But of course the breaking news is more likely to represent prejudice precisely because it is not polished and well-thought out.

The point is that none of these articles you point have a CLEAR and UNAMBIGUOUS religous motive as the one of the Christian preacher who raped a women after forcing her to read verses of the Bible where women are talked badly about and Christianity wasn't even touched upon, forget about discussions regarding what the religion teaches.

But Christianity was touched on. They repeatedly made clear and specific Christian references even when it was not necessary - to the guy's Father for instance. They left you in no doubt about the Christian nature of the attack. As for these other cases, well, who knows? It is unlikely that a crack smoker in London who happens to be of Muslim origin has a religious motivation I will grant you. And yet the media is very careful not to suggest he does. But the Muslims who kidnapped, tortured and murdered a Jew in Paris had one. And yet Islam was not touched on either. This woman I mentioned above was making bombs. I do not know her motivation, but experience suggests that perhaps she had something else going on as well. Australia is not, I would think, a place where many bombs get made.

For example, child abuse cases in the Church are common, yet you never have people finding verses of the Bible and saying that child abuse is taught.

Because it isn't. There are no verses in the Bible that say that and there is much in the New Testament and more so in Church law that specifically say the opposite - marriage in Christianity requires a clear and specific statement of informed consent from both parties which can only be given by an adult.

I doubt you're going to agree with me, but knock yourself out with the news article.

I'll do my best. Incidentally you seem to be right about this case though. Later reports do seem to mention Islam a little more often.

Bizarre plot to bomb Sydney
By John Kidman, Frank Walker and Angela Cuming
March 26, 2006

A WOMAN charged by counter-terrorist police with plotting a bomb attack was allegedly directed by her boyfriend - a jail inmate serving 22 years for the execution-styled killing of a drug rival.

Jill Courtney was arrested and charged with conspiracy to murder, following a series of joint federal and state police raids in Sydney's south-west on Friday.

Appearing in Parramatta Local Court yesterday, the 26-year-old Casula woman did not apply for and was formally refused bail, meaning prosecutors were not required to put forward allegations against her.

However, detectives are expected to claim Courtney had obtained information on how to construct an explosive device and contacted a number of people.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, detectives said Courtney appeared to have been acting on behalf of her boyfriend, 28-year-old Lithgow jail inmate Hassan Kalache.

"For whatever reason, she's hooked up and become besotted with him," one officer said. "She's converted to Islam and apparently has his prison number tattooed on her thigh. It's a pretty sad case, she's a bit of a candle in the wind."

The charge comes as police implement the toughened anti-terrorism laws.

Kalache was sentenced to a minimum 17 years behind bars in 2002 for the "callous, cold-blooded and senseless" killing of 25-year-old Wassim Chehade as he sat in a car with two of his brothers in July 2000.

In sending him away, Justice Dowd told the NSW Supreme Court Kalache had "little prospect of serious rehabilitation".

Kalache again made headlines in February 2003, when he claimed from his jail cell to have been responsible for the slaying of 25-year-old water skiing champion Jason Burton at a Parramatta hotel.

Kalache and his cousin Emad Sleiman had earlier been jointly charged with Burton's murder but Kalache was acquitted.

Sleiman is currently serving a 16-year sentence.

Courtney did not appear in court yesterday. Her lawyer Adam Houda said he was concerned for his client's mental health.

"I spoke to her at length and spent quite a bit of time with her and I am a little concerned about her mental health," Mr Houda told the court.

His request for a psychiatric evaluation was granted.

Courtney will appear before Central Local Court tomorrow via video link.

[azim]

But Christianity was touched on. They repeatedly made clear and specific Christian references even when it was not necessary - to the guy's Father for instance. They left you in no doubt about the Christian nature of the attack. As for these other cases, well, who knows? It is unlikely that a crack smoker in London who happens to be of Muslim origin has a religious motivation I will grant you. And yet the media is very careful not to suggest he does. But the Muslims who kidnapped, tortured and murdered a Jew in Paris had one. And yet Islam was not touched on either. This woman I mentioned above was making bombs. I do not know her motivation, but experience suggests that perhaps she had something else going on as well. Australia is not, I would think, a place where many bombs get made.

I can bring articles where prejudice is exhibited if you like, perhaps even for the same stories you have brought forward. Just need to spend some time with Google. :D.

Because it isn't. There are no verses in the Bible that say that and there is much in the New Testament and more so in Church law that specifically say the opposite - marriage in Christianity requires a clear and specific statement of informed consent from both parties which can only be given by an adult.

Actually the Bible never outlines the conditions of marriage as you have described, however I am certain that it DOESN'T teach the abuse of young males. The point is rather that people are not taking the actions of a large number of Priests as being the status-quo of Christianity. Whereas the same is done for Islam.

[HeiGou]

I can bring articles where prejudice is exhibited if you like, perhaps even for the same stories you have brought forward. Just need to spend some time with Google. :D.

Please do.

Actually the Bible never outlines the conditions of marriage as you have described, however I am certain that it DOESN'T teach the abuse of young males. The point is rather that people are not taking the actions of a large number of Priests as being the status-quo of Christianity. Whereas the same is done for Islam.

Well it makes it pretty clear something is going on, but mostly it is, I would have to agree, commentary on the NT and Canon Law. Actually a large number of people do take the behaviour of those priests as commentary on Christianity. Someone said here the other day that this shows Christianity was wrong. Where does anyone take the same for Islam? Would you agree that there are Islamic, or perhaps Muslim cultural, elements to what is going on? Head-chopping for instance seems mostly confined to certain number of well-defined religiously-oriented groups. Why do you think they do it? It has nothing to do with what they are taught in their equivalent of Sunday school?

[azim]

Salam.

Someone said here the other day that this shows Christianity was wrong. Where does anyone take the same for Islam?

I've heard people say similar things quite often in the media (mainly newspaper columnists).

Would you agree that there are Islamic, or perhaps Muslim cultural, elements to what is going on? Head-chopping for instance seems mostly confined to certain number of well-defined religiously-oriented groups.

Head chopping and Christianity go together hand in hand. Have you not read British history? For a period of about 300 years, all they did was chop heads off. Protestants, Catholics, Witches, you name it, it probably got chopped.

Why do you think they do it? It has nothing to do with what they are taught in their equivalent of Sunday school?

Why the Priests abuse children? Perhaps celibacy.

[HeiGou]

Head chopping and Christianity go together hand in hand. Have you not read British history? For a period of about 300 years, all they did was chop heads off. Protestants, Catholics, Witches, you name it, it probably got chopped.

Come on. That's not fair. They burnt them at the stake. Completely different.

Why the Priests abuse children? Perhaps celibacy.

Perhaps although by all accounts Pakistani madrassas are just as bad (and Protestants are supposed to have even higher rates). But who knows?

Another story. Spot the word "Muslim".

Sydney shootings up to 22
By Les Kennedy and David Braithwaite
March 30, 2006 - 5:44PM

· Shooting victim due to marry on Sunday
· Victim had concealed gun
· Fenech tells of 'special' boxer
· Stabbing and drugs in dead men's past
· Crowd hampered police after shootings
· Fibro home peppered with bullets
· Sydney's 22nd shooting incident this year

Police patrols will be stepped up around a western Sydney suburb after two men were gunned down in the street last night.

NSW Police Commissioner Ken Moroney called a top-level meeting following the double murder and nearby drive-by shooting - bringing the number of shootings in Sydney this year to 22.

It emerged that one of two young men gunned down in Blaxcell Street, Granville was due to be married on Sunday, and that Guantanamo Bay inmate Mamdouh Habib had been quizzed by police and released.

Natalie Azar, 18, said she heard the man who died in hospital was getting married on the weekend.

"I spoke to the (dead) bloke's sister that died and she had no idea what had happened.''

"She said that she'd just come from Melbourne for her brother's wedding.''

Ms Azar said that the dead man's little brother had to be held down by police, screaming "tell me the name of who died''.

Ms Azar said that when the sister found about her brother's death she was taken the hospital and was hysterical.

Victim a 'special' boxer: Fenech

Champion boxer Jeff Fenech said one of the dead men was Bassam Chami, a 26-year-old boxer of Lebanese descent who turned professional last year and had been unbeaten in the three fights he had so far.

Mr Fenech said Chami, of Granville, was a "great kid" with "more potential than any kid I've seen for a long long time''.

He said Chami trained at Billy Hussein's boxing gym and that he had been keeping an eye on Chami for at least a year.

"I told [his coach Hussein] the first time I seen the kid he was very, very special.

"I [also] pointed him out to Johnny Lewis. I said, 'Have you seen this kid fight? He's got enormous potential.

"I seen a kid that probably had more potential than any kid I've seen for a long long time.''

Chami recently participated in a debate on the Cronulla riots, saying he believed that sport kept "his boys'' out of trouble.

Victim convicted of manslaughter

It is understood he had a conviction for the manslaughter of a man stabbed to death in an altercation in an Auburn hotel around seven years ago.

The other victim was a 26-year-old Auburn man who had drug convictions.

Assistant Commissioner State Crime Command Graeme Morgan said: "In this case we don't believe shots were fired from a passing motor vehicle, we believe they were fired after a confrontation in the street.''

Mr Morgan said that one of the men was carrying a pistol but it had not been used.

Victim had concealed gun

He said the dead man's gun was "concealed and wrapped''.

The victims did not live at the house where the shooting happened and police don't yet know what they were doing there.

Mr Morgan said that due to the seriousness of the offence, the State Crime Command had been immediately put on notice.

The investigation is being led by the homicide squad, assisted by Task Force Gain and local police.

Mr Morgan said that there has been "22 discharges of firearms in public places'' this year and that the bulk has been in south-west Sydney.

He said that there were obvious links between thee shootings to indicate an outbreak of gang warfare.

He confirmed that former Guantanamo Bay inmate Mamdouh Habib had been spoken to by police but said that Mr Habib was not suspected of involvement in any culpable way in what took place last night.

Firemen hosed blood and fuel from the road before three vehicles - including a BMW and a Tarago - were towed away. Police said the fuel tank of one of the cars was ruptured by a bullet.

Habib questioned till dawn

Mamdouh Habib was questioned by police until around dawn after reportedly being stopped as he drove past the shooting scene in Blaxcell Street.

Police say a crowd of 200 people hampered their investigation after the shootings around 11.15pm.

Raul Bassi, who campaigned for Mr Habib's release when he was held as a terrorist suspect at Guantanamo Bay detention facility, said: "It seems like police think Mamdouh was a witness or something."

Police said two people had been arrested for disobeying directions but were released without charge later in the night.

Regularly chatted outside home

A Blaxcell Street resident said the dead men had been standing with a group of other men when the gunmen drove up and opened fire.

The resident, identified only as Peter, said: "Talk among neighbours was that a white Celica had been cruising past the location for the past week checking out the two dead men and their friends who regularly stood outside one of the homes chatting in the evening.''

Dana Awny, 43, who lives in the street, said: "I heard the commotion and went to have a look. I asked what was going on and heard there was one killed, one injured.''

Mr Awny said that there were "at least one to two hundred people there'' - mainly of young men.

"One young fellow was crying - he said to the police that his friend had been killed," he told smh.com.au.

People arguing and shouting

"There were people arguing and shouting with the police so they called for more cops and pushed the people away.''

Mr Awny said some of the young men were "on the phone calling people and by the second people would just come - they were saying 'come, someone just got killed.'''

Sue, 46, lives in a nearby street said "it's scary, very scary''.

"It's not safe around anymore. My kids are not allowed to go across the fence unless I'm watching.''

Neighbour tells of disturbances

Neighbour Warren Stevens, 51, said he heard the gunshots as he lay in bed trying to sleep.

"I was in bed, tossing and turning for about an hour, and then these four or five loud pops [occurred in] rapid succession.''

"There was no squeal of tires or anything like that [but] my wife [did hear] a car take off.''

Mr Stevens said the shooting didn't surprise him.

"If I was going to put money on which house would ... have something like this happen to it, I would have had money on that house...

"People turning up with cars late at night, burn outs, squeelies, what have you. Firecrackers going off late at night, I do mean firecrackers as opposed to firearms.''

He said he is now concerned for the safety of his family.

"The shots were aimed at one house, not ours [but] it doesn't take much for a bullet to ricochet.''

He said Railway Street was a typical suburban area, with little problems with crime up until now.

"We get your occasional suburban problems, house break-ins and what have you, but nothing of this nature, of shots being fired.''

Shot dead on road

Granville police Inspector Gary Sims said when police arrived they discovered the first man dead on the road.

"(The second man) was slumped over on the footpath not far away and the ambulance were quickly on the scene and conveyed him to hospital," he said.

Insp Sims said police did not believe the shooting was linked to a driveby shooting in Railway Street in the nearby suburb of Guildford less than three hours later.

Fibro home peppered with bullets

A single-storey fibro house was peppered with 14 gunshots at 1.45am, but the man, woman and three children inside escaped uninjured.


In the second shooting incident, two adults and three children in a house in Guildford escaped unharmed when several shots were fired into their home about 1.45am (AEDT).

A neighbour, Mick, said he was woken by gunshots.

''I just heard what appeared to be gun shots at 1.30 in the morning. I was lying in my bed. In the first session there was about three or four shots I think and about five seconds later I heard another three or four shots...

"Then I heard a car accelerate and I just lay in my bed listening to the noise and a little while later I saw blue and red flashing lights and I came out.''

He said he had lived in the street six years with his wife and children.

Drug activity

"The whole street has turned to water in the past two and a half years. It's what I think is drug activity in the neighbourhood and a few undesirables walking about.''

Insp Simms said people were justifiably concerned about gun crime.

"Sydneysiders have a right to feel concerned about violence on the streets but when you look at the response that has been provided there is great efforts being taken to investigate these matters," he said.

"Everyone is working together for a positive outcome."

- with Jano Gibson and AAP

[HeiGou]

And, in passing, here is an interesting story. I do not know what the religious beliefs of these men are. I am sure it will be brought up soon. Who would like to take a guess?

Four arrested at hospital under Terror Act
(Filed: 30/03/2006)

Four men have been arrested at a Staffordshire hospital under the Terrorism Act.

Police detained the men after firearms officers were called to Stafford District General Hospital.

The four are being held at a police station in the county.

A fifth man who was being treated at the hospital was moved to another hospital for specialist treatment.

A spokeswoman for Staffordshire Police said: "At approximately 9.45pm last night four men were arrested at Stafford District General Hospital under the Terrorism Act 2000 as a result of information received.

"They were arrested by officers from the force's incident management unit which included some specialist firearms officers.

"The men are now in custody at police stations in Staffordshire.

"A fifth man was receiving treatment at Stafford District General Hospital and has now been transferred to another hospital for similar treatment."

[Bittersteel]

this thread is stupid.are we having a competition of some sort?Did Muslims commit more crimes than Christians and vice versa?Childish.

[HeiGou]

this thread is stupid.are we having a competition of some sort?Did Muslims commit more crimes than Christians and vice versa? Childish.

(Small changes made to the format of the above post)

I don't think it is totally stupid. The claim is not about how many crimes were committed by each faith community, but over claims of bias in the media. It is a frequent claim around here that the media is biased against Muslims and will always mention "Muslims" or "Islam" where possible, and where in a similar situation they would not mention "Christians" or "Christianity", specifically to make Muslims look bad. I maintain this is not true or fair, or at least is not always true and not very fair. The Western media tries to be sensitive and tries to avoid doing exactly what it is claimed they do. Given the frequency with which this claim is made and the passion it generates, I think it is important to make it clear this is not the case.

[Cheb]

Well you can say these articles do not prove anything. Of course anyone can hand pick articles to suit their argument then make a conclusion. That would be impossible to do unless we had all news articles, reports and everything we had in the media. We obviously cant do that. Either side can claim the opposite thing but in the end, it is a matter of opinion not fact.

[HeiGou]

Well you can say these articles do not prove anything. Of course anyone can hand pick articles to suit their argument then make a conclusion. That would be impossible to do unless we had all news articles, reports and everything we had in the media. We obviously cant do that. Either side can claim the opposite thing but in the end, it is a matter of opinion not fact.

Actually it is me that has the problem - I can provide any number of articles that treat Muslims sensitively, but ultimately I can't prove the media is perfect unless I post every single article every published anywhere. The other side of this argument has an easier time because they only have to post one. Have they? The first article clearly did not do what was claimed for it. Not another since.

What I can do is point out how often the media is not too bad.

[Cheb]

I disagree because there are millions of articles not tens. So like I said, it is an opinion.
You should also know that it does not take much to actually get Muslims or Islam in the minds of people. In fact, at the moment all you need to say is terrorist and people would think Muslim. So basically it is not as simple as you make it to be.

[HeiGou]

I disagree because there are millions of articles not tens. So like I said, it is an opinion.

I agree that I would have to produce every single article every published to make my point. Which is unreasonable. But it is odd that no one has been willing to produce even a single article that makes the claims made for them.

You should also know that it does not take much to actually get Muslims or Islam in the minds of people. In fact, at the moment all you need to say is terrorist and people would think Muslim. So basically it is not as simple as you make it to be.

I wonder why that might be. Might it, perhaps, be because so many of the terrorists in the world in the last 30 years have not been Buddhist?