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ameen
03-03-2006, 05:54 AM
This thread is a discussion leading on from the thread at this link:

http://www.islamicboard.com/cyber-co...-thoughts.html


" ...but he tells me that feeling is natural when someone converts and changes their whole lifestyle. "


This is further evidence that her husband believes his attitudes are supported by Islam.

He says that when someone (female, as in this case) converts to Islam, they should expect to be in such situations.

So the connection once again must be established to the false and corrupt Hadith that have moulded the personalities of many men like him.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-04-2006, 12:53 AM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Ameen-
So the connection once again must be established to the false and corrupt Hadith that have moulded the personalities of many men like him.
This is simply ridiculous! You keep connecting the husband's bad behaviour with some allegedly "false and corrupt Hadith" then you don't even show! Which hadith are these that you this husband is acting upon? YOu have no evidence concerning what has influenced this man's behaviour, yet it seems that you have a vested interest in attacking the hadith, and conseuqently you claim that hadith have made him like this. On the contrary, if one studies the hadith, they will find a beautiful moral standard for them to emulate.

:w:
Reply

ameen
03-04-2006, 01:11 AM
"...allegedly "false and corrupt Hadith" then you don't even show! Which hadith are these that you this husband is acting upon? YOu have no evidence concerning what has influenced this man's behaviour..."


salam,

There are simply too many of these that overall have an impact on Muslim's attitudes towards women.

Say, for example, if I ask you to bring me the first ten hadith you find out there specifically about women - the chances are that some of them - if not most - will speak of the women's role as either being obedient to husbands or some other second-class view of their roles and duties, or some negative attribute.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-04-2006, 03:55 AM
Originally Posted by Ameen-
There are simply too many of these that overall have an impact on Muslim's attitudes towards women.
These ill-mannered Muslims today are not practicing Islam, much less studying hadith! Their attitudes should be attributed solely to themselves unless it can be objectively shown (key word: objectively) that their attitude is linked to some source text. If you think it is hadith, bring me some examples and we'll discuss them. But first we have to agree that our personal feelings are not a criteria for what is authentic or not. Do you have a formal education in the hadith sciences, according to which you can issue judgements on the authenticity of a hadith?

Or are you, like most hadith-rejectors, someone who simply comes across hadith that he/she finds troubling or seemingly in conflict with other Islamic values, and consequently declares, "It doesn't make sense to me, therefore it can't be authentic" instead of going to the scholars and find the explanation of the hadith in context?

:sl:
Originally Posted by Issa
:sl: ,
Brother, not to be disrespectful but she should leave ESPECIALLY if she has children. If he is abusive the children see. If the see and she stays they will think it is ok. They may become abusive when they are adults. It isn't a good idea to stay 'for the sake of the children' when someone is abusive...
I'm not arguing that, I simply said that she should consider what is in the best interests of her children, I didn't say that she shouldn't divorce if she has children.

:w:
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ameen
03-04-2006, 11:07 AM
"Or are you, like most hadith-rejectors, someone who simply comes across hadith that he/she finds troubling or seemingly in conflict with other Islamic values, and consequently declares, "It doesn't make sense to me, therefore it can't be authentic" instead of going to the scholars and find the explanation of the hadith in context?"


Th 'sciences of hadith' is a labelling system which - on the surface - seems to work, but in the real world, not many people actually follow.

This is why there are people believing in and following all kinds of Hadith, including those that have been classed 'weak' or 'fabricated' by some scholars.

For example, I have a book called 'Major Sins', which is written by an 'Imam', and one chapter of his book is devoted to encouraging the women to obey and remain subservient to their husbands. It is filled with disgusting hadith which, if you read, I'm sure you'll agree CANNOT be from the Prophet. Also, some of these Hadith have 'Not Found' as their reference and so they don't even have a source!
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-04-2006, 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by Ameen-
Th 'sciences of hadith' is a labelling system which - on the surface - seems to work, but in the real world, not many people actually follow.
On the surface? Brother, are you a muhaddith? Do you have a formal education in hadith sciences?

For example, I have a book called 'Major Sins', which is written by an 'Imam'
Imam Adh-Dhahabi?
It is filled with disgusting hadith which, if you read, I'm sure you'll agree CANNOT be from the Prophet.
Then bring them forward in a new thread and we'll discuss them.

Also, some of these Hadith have 'Not Known' as their reference and so they don't even have a source!
If they have 'not known' as their source, then they are not considered authentic, so this is not a problem with hadith, again. And this does not mean we reject authentic hadith simply because we reject fabricated ones.

:w:
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ameen
03-04-2006, 09:06 PM
salam,

yes - his name is Shamsu ed-Deen adh-Dhahabi.


The point is that THERE ARE these hadith out there and they are BEING PUBLISHED under the name of people with 'Imam' as their title like the person mentioned above.


This means that there are people who will / do believe in such lies and adopt obnoxious attitudes toward women.

Since you know the book, perhaps you can see for yourself what I'm talking about?
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-04-2006, 10:50 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Ameen-
The point is that THERE ARE these hadith out there and they are BEING PUBLISHED under the name of people with 'Imam' as their title like the person mentioned above.
I never disputed that there are fabricated or unauthentic hadith out there. But our scholars and Muhaditheen have already studied them and classified them, and if someone reads a hadith they should ask the scholars concerning its authenticity and context.

The issue here is your campaign against hadith and the fact that you attribute someone's bad manners to hadith without any basis for this at all!

Since you know the book, perhaps you can see for yourself what I'm talking about?
Yes, let's talk about Imam Adh-Dhahabi's book, Al-Kabâ'ir. First of all, if anyone read the book properly they would see that the chapter right after women is about men! And Imam Adh-Dhahabi begins the chapter by writing:
Lest one should suppose that all the responsibilities are on the wife and all the rights belong to the husband, we mention that the husband is obliged to be gentle, kind, and loving to his wife. He must show forbearance and patience toward her in case she is occasionally abusive or ill-tempered. It is his duty to feed and clothe her and to provide for her needs well, within his means, according to the command of Allah Most High: Live with them on a footing of kindness and equity (4:19) and the advice of the Prophet: Consult with women. Indeed, you have some rights over your women and they have some rights over you. It is their right on you that you provide for their food and clothing generously, and your right on them is that they do not let anyone whom you dislike in the house, walking upon your floor. (Related by Ibn Majah and Tirmidhi who declared it Hasan Saheeh)

He said: "The best among you is the one who is best to his wife" (Related by Ibn Hibban) in another version it is the one who is most kind to his wife. The Prophet himself was very gentle and kind in dealing with women.

The Prophet saws also said: "If any man shows patience with his wife's bad temper, Allah will give him a reward similar to the reward of Ayyub (Job) for his patience, and if any woman shows patience with her husband's bad temper, Allah will give her a reward similar to the reward of Asiyah daughter of Muzahim, the wife of Pharoah (Cf. Qur'an 66:11)."

It is reported that a man came to 'Umar ibn Al-Khattab raa to complain about his wife's ill-temper. While he was waiting for 'Umar to come out of his house, he heard 'Umar's wife scolding him and 'Umar quietly listening to her, and not answering her back. The man turned around and started walking away, muttering to himself: "If that is the case with 'Umar, the leader of the believers, who is famous for his uprighteness and toughness, then what about poor me?!" At that moment, 'Umar came out of his house and saw the man walking away. He called him and said, "What is it you want of me, O man?" The man replied: "O leader of the believers, I came to complain to you about my wife's bad-temper and how she nags me. Then I heard your wife doing the same to you, so I turned around, muttering to myself, 'If that is the situation of the leader of the believers, then what about me?'" 'Umar replied, "O my brother, I bear with her because of her rights over me. She cooks my food, bakes my bread, washes my clothes, breast-feeds my child...and yet none of these are her duty;* and then she is a comfort to my heart and keeps me away from forbidden deeds. Consequently, I bear with her." The man said, "It is the same with me, O leader of the believers." 'Umar said: "Then, O my brother, be patient with her, indeed this life is short. (Adh-Dhahabi, Al-Kabâ'ir 194)
The last hadith about 'Umar is a beautiful example of the lofty status that Islam has given women. The Khalifa himself used to listen patiently while his wife scolded him and he instructed his followers to likewise be patient and grateful for all the favours their wives gave them. Dr. M. Moinuddin Siddiqui, who has translated Al-Kabâ'ir into english, includes the following footnote in the place I have marked above with an asterisk [*]:
According to the Shari'ah, a Muslim wife has no obligation to do all this; rather, it is the husband's obligation to take care of it [either himself or] by hiring a servant (or even, in the case of breast-feeding, a wet-nurse). Therefore, if a woman does this, it is out of good-will and compliance on her part, not because it is obligatory on her, and consequently it is a cause for appreciation and helpfulness on the part of her husband. (Translator)
So we can see quite clearly that far from being mysognistic, the book of Imam Dhahabi contains beautiful hadith which shed light on the equity and justice of Islam.

As for the other hadith Imam Dhahab quotes earlier in his chapter on women, yes some of them are unauthentic but he mentions this and gives the source each time. So if anyone reads his work they will not be misguided. Besides, when someone reads these things they can always confirm them with a scholar and find out from our shuyukh the status of these ahadith.

:w:
Reply

ameen
03-05-2006, 03:57 PM
salam,

My version of the book (published by Islamic Inc. Publishing & Dist.) does not begin with those hadith, and it is entitled 'A Wife's Rebellion Against Her Husband'.

(Edited at 08:49 PM: the CHAPTER is entitled that, not the book)


You have overlooked many of the hadith in there, which are in-fact highly offensive and some are too abhorrent for me to type-up on this board.


One thing is clear though - Muslims around the world are being influenced and affected by teachings that stem from such lies in hadith and scholars' opinions, sometimes resulting in tyrannical characteristics in men.

The sister who started this thread (http://www.islamicboard.com/cyber-co...-thoughts.html) may well be a victim in such a case.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-05-2006, 08:11 PM
:sl: brother,
Originally Posted by Ameen-
My version of the book (published by Islamic Inc. Publishing & Dist.) does not begin with those hadith, and it is entitled 'A Wife's Rebellion Against Her Husband'.
First, there are no 'versions' of the book. I was looking at the arabic text itself, written by Adh-Dhahabi and the english translation of M. Moinuddin Siddiqui. If you want me to comment on the translation that you have, please provide a link to the book and give me the name of the translator.

Secondly, you asked me about what the Imams are writing not about some incorrect translation.

Thirdly, I feel you are again mistaken. The chapter immediately after 'A woman's bad conduct towards her husband' is immediately followed by the section I quoted. Please check again. If not, then your translation is wrong and the blame rests upon that publisher for omitting the section, not upon the Imam who wrote the book, and certainly not upon the hadith!!

You have overlooked many of the hadith in there, which are in-fact highly offensive and some are too abhorrent for me to type-up on this board.
I have overlooked nothing, brother. I commented in my last post about this. There are some unauthentic hadith, but it is mentioned and the source is given. I assume that the 'offensive' hadith you are mentioning is the hadith of some women being hung in hell-fire by their hair. Well the scholars, classical and contemporary, have mentioned its weakness and the fact that it is fabricated, so this shouldn't be an issue either, nor should it be used as an excuse by hadith-rejectors to discredit the authentic hadith collections.

There is not a problem with hadith, there is a problem with some Muslims.

One thing is clear though - Muslims around the world are being influenced and affected by teachings that stem from such lies in hadith and scholars' opinions, sometimes resulting in tyrannical characteristics in men.
Not true. Muslims are being affected by their cultural traditions that they prefer over Islam and they are failing because they do not go to the sources of knowledge and seek clarification from the scholars. Instead they appoint themselves as Muhadditheen to declare what is right and what is wrong.

The sister who started this thread may well be a victim in such a case.
So now you have gone from declaring outright that she is a victim of false hadith [without any evidence to support your claim], to saying that she may be a victim of false hadith. Well, she may be a victim of just about anything, its just a claim, you have to provide evidence before you want others to take it seriously.

:w:
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ameen
03-05-2006, 08:43 PM
salam,

I'd just like to correct something I said in my previous post :

The Chapter of the book we are talking about is called

'A Wife's Rebellion Against Her Husband'.

(not the name of the version/book itself - sorry about the mistake)

This is the translation I have:

http://www.simplyislam.com/iteminfo.asp?Item=50804


Obviously, I can't say 'the person's husband is DEFINITELY influenced by false hadith' - but when you speak out of belief - you don't usually say 'may be'... we don't say there MAY BE a Hereafter, because we strongly believe that there is (although I know this is not exactly the same).

You're right that these attitudes are human-attributes in some men, but people have been trying to connect these to Islam - and you know the only route this has been made possible - just say 'The Prophet said it'.

...which then leads some people to have 'second thoughts' about Islam (just look at the title of this thread: http://www.islamicboard.com/cyber-co...-thoughts.html).
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-05-2006, 09:30 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Ameen-
salam,

I'd just like to correct something I said in my previous post :

The Chapter of the book we are talking about is called

'A Wife's Rebellion Against Her Husband'.

(not the name of the version/book itself - sorry about the mistake)
Don't worry, I understood what you meant.

This is the translation I have:

http://www.simplyislam.com/iteminfo.asp?Item=50804
JazakumAllahu khayran for the link. Now can you double check and read the part right after the chapter you mentioned and see if it resembles what I have quoted?

and you know the only route this has been made possible - just say 'The Prophet said it'.
Brother, if someone brings an allegation using a hadith, let's examine the hadith and see the commentary on scholars not try to discredit all hadith collections.

I hope we're in agreement on this.
:w:
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ameen
03-05-2006, 09:52 PM
salam,

Is Adh-Dhahabi not a scholar / Imam himself?

He obviously believes such hadith are true / Sahih and is even endorsing Hadith which you yourself have said is a lie / are unauthentic.

Some people are clearly picking and choosing what suits them then?
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-05-2006, 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by Ameen-
Is Adh-Dhahabi not a scholar / Imam himself?
Yes, he is.
He obviously believes such hadith are Sahih and is even endorsing Hadith which you yourself have said is a lie / are unauthentic.
No he does not, as I said previously he mentions the source and authenticity of the narrations. If your translation didn't include his footnotes, that isn't his fault. Also, many early scholars used to compile all narrations on a subject in their books which people could look up in other references to check their authenticity.

:w:
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ameen
03-05-2006, 10:12 PM
salam,

The purpose of his using those Hadith in his book is very clearly not to refute them or to say how weak they are, but are directed at women so that they 'realise' how important their duty is to their husbands and their position in a marriage.

If he sincerely doubted the authenticity of those hadith, why is he using them to make his point (to the women) and explaining them with a view of them being true?
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-05-2006, 10:15 PM
Originally Posted by Ameen-
salam,

The purpose of his using those Hadith in his book is very clearly not to refute them or to say how weak they are, but are directed at women so that they 'realise' how important their duty is to their husbands and their position in a marriage.

If he sincerely doubted the authenticity of those hadith, why is he using them to make his point (to the women) and explaining them with a view of them being true?
He is quoting them because they are relevant to the discussion. It is true that abusive men and abusive women will be punished, but the punishment described in one of thoser hadith is not authentic and he mentions that. He basically says, "This is another hadith on this subject, however many scholars have viewed it unauthentic".

:w:
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ameen
03-05-2006, 10:21 PM
salam,

So let me ask you:

Can you tell me from where comes the connection of misogynistic / negative view of women to Islam?

You believe such attitudes are found in the Qur'an?

Or do you believe that it is just a coincidence that many MUSLIM men are like that?
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-05-2006, 11:09 PM
:sl: bro,
Originally Posted by Ameen-
Can you tell me from where comes the connection of misogynistic / negative view of women to Islam?
You mean in the west or why some Muslims are like that?

Well the western media portrayed Islam as a religion oppressive to women long before their people even read hadith. Throughout history there has been a campaign to attack and discredit Islam, so this is nothing new. They mainly focus on the way women dress and then they tried to dig deeper to come up with more things to support their idea that Islam is mysognistic so they spread other misconceptions about Islamic law.

As for why some Muslims are like that, well then it is no surprise that many cultures historically have been oppressive to women, and when people go with culture instead of religioin, they act upon that.

You believe such attitudes are found in the Qur'an?
What attitudes? If you mean these anti-women attitudes, of course they have nothing to do with the Qur'an or the Hadith.

Or do you believe that it is just a coincidence that many MUSLIM men are like that?
It's not just Muslim men, women were discriminated and still are discriminated in all countries around the world. The problem with some Muslim men has nothing to do with hadith, it is cultural.

:w:
Reply

FatimaAsSideqah
03-05-2006, 11:24 PM
:sl:

God treats men and women as spiritual equals., Quran 3:195 tells us :

"Their Lord responded to them: "I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you MALE OR FEMALE, YOU ARE EQUAL TO ONE ANOTHER........."

Many of the Muslim countries who claim to follow Islam are treating women as a second class citizens, and some of these women accepted this situation thinking that is what Islam (Submission in English) is advocating. As mentioned previously, God, in the Quran made a complete spiritual equality between men and women, See 3:195.

Most of the degrading, humiliation and poor treatment in these Muslim Countries for women, came from the desertion of the Quran , and refusal of the word of God in favor of some fabrications written in Hadith books that put women on the same level with animals, monkeys , asses or dogs.

The total respect and rights guaranteed by God for the Muslim women can not be taken away by a lie written in another man-made book. While God made men and women spiritually equal as seen in 3:195 the traditional Muslims who prefer Hadith over Quran always remind the women of this alleged Hadith:

"Women are naturally, morally and religiously defective". (Bukhary).

That is what Bukhary writes not what God says, not what the prophet who represents the message of God could have said, since this statement is totally against the Quran. Because women usually do not have the physical strength of man, hadithists see them as "naturally defective". They forget that women have other natural qualities in which they are superior to men, like their ability to endure pain, the ability to bear children, etc.

Hadithists see women as "morally defective", conveniently ignoring the fact that the vast majority of individuals jailed for murder, rape, child abuse, etc. are men. And hadithists claim that women are "religiously defective" but it is they (not God in the Quran) who forbid their daughters from praying and fasting during their menstrual periods and it is they (not God) who discourage the women from going to the mosque, even for Friday prayers.

Their problem is that they have taken the words of men instead of the words of God. After making it all but impossible for a woman to practice her religion for about 25% of her life (the amount of time most women have their periods), is it any wonder that hadithists claim that the majority of people in Hell are women????!

However what God revealed in the Quran is very different. The spiritual equality between men and women is reiterated in 4:124, as follows:

"As for those who lead a righteous life, MALE OR FEMALE. while believing, they enter Paradise; without the slightest injustice"

and again in 16:97:

" Anyone who works righteousness, MALE OR FEMALE, while believing, we will surely grant them a happy life in this world, and we will surely pay them their full recompense for their righteous works."

and yet again in 40:40,

[40:40] Whoever commits a sin is requited for just that, and whoever works righteousness - MALE OR FEMALE - while believing, these will enter Paradise wherein they receive provisions without any limits.

I believe it is time to go back to the Quran, and believe God, before a day comes when the messenger will complain to God, that the Muslims deserted the Quran, 25:30

:w: :sister:
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AceOfHearts
03-06-2006, 12:30 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
He is quoting them because they are relevant to the discussion. It is true that abusive men and abusive women will be punished, but the punishment described in one of thoser hadith is not authentic and he mentions that. He basically says, "This is another hadith on this subject, however many scholars have viewed it unauthentic".

:w:

Assalamu alaikum brother,

I think the problem is that even when acknowledging a hadith is weak or unauthentic, possibly even fabricated, imams/scholars such as the auther of this book find no hesitancy in using it to prooving their point while even acknowledging its un-authenticity!

What is there left between an authentic and un-authentic nerration if both are used in prooving something?

Fact is today, a hadith among the Muslims are considered words of the Messenger regardless of its classification. Even a hadith that is classed weak is taken to be a hadith of the prophet and given the same credibility as a strong one. The discussion of its classification may only arise after some sort of a deliberate scrutiny of the validity of the hadith, otherwise it [usually] just passes by the reader as just another hadith of the Prophet to be accepted and adopted.

The main problem among the Muslims as Sister Righteous Lady points out is that we have drifted from the Quran since the days of the Messenger.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-06-2006, 03:07 AM
:sl:

So before I begin, let me ask our three hadith-rejectors here what their formal education in ahadith is, just to confirm. Is it incorrect if I say that you are just Muslims who have come across some hadith that you found troubling and instead of going to the sources of knowledge, reading the commentary of the hadith, you have instead decided to just reject hadith altogether?
Originally Posted by RighteousLady
Most of the degrading, humiliation and poor treatment in these Muslim Countries for women, came from the desertion of the Quran, and refusal of the word of God in favor of some fabrications written in Hadith books
Nonsense. When the Islamic empire was at its peak, following the Qur'an AND THE SUNNAH, there were literally thousands of Muslim women who were scholars. And the fact that really debunks your argument is that most of them were HADITH SCHOLARS. So much for hadith being the invention of male chauvinsim. Here is a very short online list of some famous Muslim women scholars:
http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_se...&main_cat_id=2

Now let us examine your allegations. You need to bring the references to back up what you say.
"Women are naturally, morally and religiously defective". (Bukhary).
That is NOT what the hadith says at all! Why have you not quoted the entire hadith? Quote the entire hadith and then we can discuss it. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh was not making a statement on women's intelligence or status. He was encouraging them to donate in the cause of Allah swt by pointing out that they had less religious obligations in various things. He did not say that they were defective!

Because women usually do not have the physical strength of man, hadithists see them as "naturally defective".
Strangely, these same 'hadithists' seem to fully accept the narration of women in hadith on equal level with that of men. Just look at all the hadith reported from A'isha rd.

They forget that women have other natural qualities in which they are superior to men, like their ability to endure pain, the ability to bear children, etc.
Do they? Actually, I think some of the greatest examples of Islam's elevation of women are found in the HADITH. Take the following for example:
The Prophet singles out the education of women and their kind treatment.
Anyone who cares for three daughter, gives them a good upbringing, marries them to good husbands and treats them well, they will enter paradise. (Abu Dawud)
Notice that he didn't mention sons in the above hadith.

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh describes the righteous woman in the most beautiful way:
The life of this world is bountiful, and the best of the bounties of this world is the righteous woman. (Muslim)

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh makes kindness and compassion to women integral to one's piety:
The best of you is the one who is best to his wife. (Ibn Hibban)

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh orders consulting with women:
Consult with women. Indeed, you have some rights over your women and they have some rights over you. It is their right on you that you provide for their food and clothing generously, and your right on them is that they do not let anyone whom you dislike in the house, walking upon your floor. (Related by Ibn Majah and Tirmidhi who declared it Hasan Saheeh)

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh describes men and women equally:
"If any man shows patience with his wife's bad temper, Allah will give him a reward similar to the reward of Ayyub (Job) for his patience, and if any woman shows patience with her husband's bad temper, Allah will give her a reward similar to the reward of Asiyah daughter of Muzahim, the wife of Pharoah (Cf. Qur'an 66:11)." (Adh-Dhahabi in Al-Kabâ'ir)

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh told his followers not to marry women for some superficial/external benefit but for their piety:
A woman may be married for four reasons: for her property, her status, her beauty, and her religion; so marry one who is religious, may you be blessed (Bukhari)
This is of course, at a time when women were only used and valued for external appearance of some other superficial characteristic.

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh used to help his wives doing housework at home:
A'isha, the wife of the Prophet, was asked, "What did the Prophet used to do at home?" She answered, "He kept himself busy helping the members of his household, and when the time for prayer came, he would go out for the prayer". (Bukhari)
We can clearly see that if someone rejects hadith, they reject with it much of the value Islam grants to women.

Their problem is that they have taken the words of men instead of the words of God.
Your problem is that you come across hadith that you don't understand and think conflict with Islamic values and instead of studying the context and narrations and commentary, and going to the scholars of hadith, you instead pronounce yourself a Muhaddith and declare that the hadith cannot be true.

Ther eis no dispute amongst scholars (not laymen who have no formal education in islamic sciences) that an authentic hadith from the Prophet Muhammad saws is confirmed as his words.
is it any wonder that hadithists claim that the majority of people in Hell are women????!
I answered this here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/100453-post17.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/33428-post6.html

I believe it is time to go back to the Quran
I agree completely, and the Qur'an says very clearly to ask those with knowledge if you know not.

:sl:
Originally Posted by companion
I think the problem is that even when acknowledging a hadith is weak or unauthentic, possibly even fabricated, imams/scholars such as the auther of this book find no hesitancy in using it to prooving their point while even acknowledging its un-authenticity!
He is not using it to 'prove' a point, he is citing it to show another relevant hadith in case someone came across it elsewhere and wondered about its status.

Even a hadith that is classed weak is taken to be a hadith of the prophet and given the same credibility as a strong one.
Nonsense. Clearly you need to study the science of hadith before passing judgement on a field you have no knowledge about.

:w:
Reply

AceOfHearts
03-06-2006, 01:52 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
:sl:

Nonsense. Clearly you need to study the science of hadith before passing judgement on a field you have no knowledge about.

:w:
I am not a 'hadith rejector'. I would appreciate you dont pass such sweeping judgement over me before you even heard me enough. How do you know whether I have studied science of hadiths or not anyway?

I believe what I said is the truth. I should have been clearer on that quote of me you mentioned at the very end. When I said even the unauthentioc hadiths are given the same credit as authentic ones, I meant that even these unauthentic ones are mentioned as if they were authentic because my view is that un-authentic nerrations should not be mentioned at all.

If they are un-authentic why should they be used to all? I dont agree that the auther of the book was mentioning those hadiths to make people aware of he lack of authenticity of those nerrations, indeed most would be reading them for the first time like I was. He was deliberately using unauthentic hadiths to proove his point.

Anyway brother, I dont wish to prolong the discussion on this matter.

Let's keep the focus a bit more on sister Sweet Peas problem.

:sl:
Reply

ameen
03-07-2006, 04:44 AM
As-salamu'alaikum,

some hadith are Evil

Evil because they slander the Prophet.

If you are a Muslim of any kind you have to agree about the devilish nature of such hadith -

because these are lies against the Prophet, lies against Islam and against Allah.


- EVIL lies.
Reply

Ghazi
03-07-2006, 10:47 AM
Originally Posted by Ameen-
As-salamu'alaikum,

some hadith are Evil

Evil because they slander the Prophet.

If you are a Muslim of any kind you have to agree about the devilish nature of such hadith -

because these are lies against the Prophet, lies against Islam and against Allah.


- EVIL lies.
Salaam

Care to share these hadiths
Reply

ameen
03-07-2006, 02:24 PM
salam,

why don't you ask one of your scholars to show you some?

They'll tell you there are Hadith they believe are false/corrupt - evil ones.

It's not like they disagree with what I've said.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-07-2006, 08:33 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Companion
I am not a 'hadith rejector'.
You clearly expressed your approval for what Sister RighteousLady had written, which was a call to reject the hadith in Sahih Bukhari. I don't know how to interpret that any other way.

When I said even the unauthentioc hadiths are given the same credit as authentic ones, I meant that even these unauthentic ones are mentioned as if they were authentic because my view is that un-authentic nerrations should not be mentioned at all.
There are some unauthentic narrations which are very widespread. Most people have heard the narration "seek knowledge, even unto China" which is not authentic. Shouldn't we inform the public about unauthentic hadith? Other than that, I agree with you completely that unauthentic hadith should not be mentioned at all unless it be to refute a common misconception by commenting on the hadith's unatuhenticity.
He was deliberately using unauthentic hadiths to proove his point.
First, you can't read his mind, nor can you prove what you suspect of him. So what's the point in trying to attack this scholar? Second, even if we suppose that he made a mistake in mentioning that hadith, a simple human error, then he still would not convey the wrong impression since he follows that up immediately with the section I have quoted which speaks out for women's rights and mandates good treatment of women.

:sl:
Originally Posted by Ameen
some hadith are Evil

Evil because they slander the Prophet.
Are there fabricated hadith? Yes. Have the scholars identified them and sorted them out? Yes. Does this discredit the authentic hadith compilations? No.

:w:
Reply

ameen
03-08-2006, 12:34 AM
Are the scholars infallible? NO.

Can they make mistakes? YES.

Have they made mistakes? YES.


Scholars are human-beings and after going through thousands of Hadith, to say blindly that they are 100% accurate in filtering out the evil hadith shows clear ignorance and an inclination to raise the status of human-mortals to a Divine level.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-08-2006, 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by Ameen-
Are the scholars infallible? NO.

Can they make mistakes? YES.

Have they made mistakes? YES.


Scholars are human-beings and after going through thousands of Hadith, to say blindly that they are 100% accurate in filtering out the evil hadith shows clear ignorance and an inclination to raise the status of human-mortals to a Divine level.
:sl: bro,
There's a difference between saying that one scholar erred over a particular hadith versus saying that the entire consensus of Muslims scholars for over a millenium has not only been mistaken but blatantly opposed to the Qur'anic teachings. The first claim is plausible, the latter is not.

:w:
Reply

ameen
03-08-2006, 05:43 PM
As-salamu'alaikum,

It's not as black and white as you seem to think.

Interpretations are often made at a slant, bending verses to conform to Hadith - be they evil/corrupt ones.

This is not a recent phenomenon either, and just because it's been like that for a long time does not add credit to its validity.

Since we're on the topic of misogyny, I can give you the example of 'obedience to the husband',

..where scholars have been wrongly interpreting obedience of Allah (in the Qur'an) as obedience to husbands, using the excuse that Ibn Abbas was reported to have said it - whereas the Qur'an clearly says otherwise!
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-08-2006, 09:52 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Ameen-
It's not as black and white as you seem to think.
I don't see how you've demonstatred otherwise. Since the time of the companions, all the Islamic scholars till now have had consensus on the validity of hadith, so how is it possible that someone could come with anything contrary to that now? I can accept that many one or two sholars of hadith could have erred in their judgement of a particular hadith, but how can one claim that the entire consensus of all scholars on a hadith has been false?

This is not a recent phenomenon either, and just because it's been like that for a long time does not add credit to its validity.
Is it conceivable that Muslims scholars everywhere, for centuries have all been wrong?

Since we're on the topic of misogyny, I can give you the example of 'obedience to the husband',

..where scholars have been wrongly interpreting obedience of Allah (in the Qur'an) as obedience to husbands, using the excuse that Ibn Abbas was reported to have said it - whereas the Qur'an clearly says otherwise!
First, if you're quoting a source, it would be nice for you to give me the source. Secondly, obedience and respect between the husband and the wife are part of Islam, and the Qur'an does not say otherwise. That doesn't mean that obedience to Allah specifically means obedience to one's husband, but that obedience to one's husband (so long as it is not against Islam) is an important aspect included there. Likewise, a husband's consultation, respect, consideration for his wife are also included as part of his obedience to God.

:w:
Reply

ameen
03-08-2006, 10:25 PM
salam,

I feel kind of reluctant to quote to you a verse as that is more than likely to lead to you posting links / articles from tafsir or sayings of scholars on the verse, instead of your own input.

However, Qur'anic verse 4:34 remains one of the most misunderstood and abused verses in relation to women.

Of-course mutual respect and consultation are important in a marriage, but patriarchal interpretations have made the husband almost god-like (hadith about prostration to husbands springs to mind).

Hence, women are wrongfully made to believe there is an emphasis on the OBEDIENCE to the husband, which is reflected in your speaking of 'obedience' in relation to husbands, but not in relation to wives.

If this is about mutualism, why make-up false doctrine about having to obey husbands specifically?
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-08-2006, 11:48 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Ameen-
Of-course mutual respect and consultation are important in a marriage, but patriarchal interpretations have made the husband almost god-like (hadith about prostration to husbands springs to mind).
The issue here is how are we to intepret the Qur'an - has God left it up to the whims of people? No. God has sent us a messenger who's guidance and teachings we are to follow, and we have to interpret the Qur'an in light of the authentic ahadith and the understanding of the early Muslim companions, the immediate recipients of the message. Their understand was the correct understanding.

The following article explains the concept of men being protectors and maintainers of women:
http://www.islamtoday.net/english/sh...sub_cat_id=664

Hence, women are wrongfully made to believe there is an emphasis on the OBEDIENCE to the husband, which is reflected in your speaking of 'obedience' in relation to husbands, but not in relation to wives.
Because there is an emphasis on obedience to the husband in Islam, because he is considered the leader in the household. But leadrship does not equate superiority. The husband and the wife have complementary roles in the family. In democratic societies you will find leaders making decisions after consulting the people and based on the views of the people. This is the same thing for a family.

If this is about mutualism, why make-up false doctrine about having to obey husbands specifically?
I'm sorry but how did you come to the conclusion that obedience to one's husband is a false and made-up doctrine?! Please provide your evidence brother.

:w:
Reply

AceOfHearts
03-09-2006, 01:14 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
:sl:

You clearly expressed your approval for what Sister RighteousLady had written, which was a call to reject the hadith in Sahih Bukhari. I don't know how to interpret that any other way.

:w:
:sl:

How? Where? Please do proove to me where I "clearly expressed" my "approval"!

Is it because I called her a 'sister' out of common courtasy (just like I refered to you as a 'brother')?

In my book, anybody who believes in one Allah, His revealed book - the Quran and the prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh) is a believer.

If the enemies attack us, they will attack us all! Regardless of whether one believes in hadith or no hadith. They see us as one enemy. So it is paramount to not let our differences get in the way of our unity.

Good job you moved the hadith discussion here. Jazzakallah khayr.

Lastly, I agree to differ on the matter of the author quoting those un-authentic ahadiths [with extremely obscene contents, notice the hadith on your sig].

Peace to you.

:)
Reply

seek.learn
03-09-2006, 03:44 AM
Salaam o alaikum,

AllahuAlim.
May Allah guide us, Aameen.

Just wanted to present an opinion.
Without a doubt there are false hadith out there. What we need to do is educate ourselves and then, InshaAllah, educate people about it. No one denies that there are false hadith, but as brother Ansar says, can you completely ignore All hadith on that basis?

And, about the author having quoted false or week hadith. First and foremost, please, I only present my opinion since I havent read this book completely. However, I remember reading a book on the stories of the Prophets (Apologies, I forget by whom it was). In this, the author mentioned three or four hadith in relation to Hadhrat Sulaiman (AS) and clearly said along the lines of 'however scholars think or say this is weak'. My first reaction to that was,'why on earth quote something that is weak? it shouldnt be mentioned at all!'. But, after a while, it occured to me that If he hadnt mentioned those hadith, in relation to that topic, and had only mentioned the authentic ones with no mention of which ones were weak, and I were to ever come across those false hadith in any manner, it would lead me to confusion. Since he DID mention all those hadith, in relation to the topic, if ever Iam to come across those weak hadith or if ever i hear someone quote them as authentic, Im in a better position to to know better for myself, and God willing let that person know the same.

If a scholar mentions all the hadith in relation to a topic, and he clearly specifies which ones are weak and unauthentic, how can he possibly be using it to prove what ever you say he's trying to prove? Allah (SWT) knows the state of hearts. We are in no place to judge. What matters is what I do about it! If an author mentions a weak hadith and Says it is weak, that is for me to know and remember and let all those around me Know about its weakness! The hadith about knowledge and china is not authentic as brother Ansar mentioned but its taught in Schools!! I was taught it from grade 5 onwards!

Mentioning which hadiths are out there and which are considered false or weak is a far better way of ensuring that, God willing, their usage will decrease than by not mentioning them at all.

And people even distort our Quran to get their own meanings out of it. We cant possibly abandon that can we? ofcoarse not!
Yes scholars are only Human. But is it Just of me to classify ahadith unauthentic because other [B]Humans[B] misunderstand and misuse them?

May Allah guide us all. Aameen.
AllahuAlim!

Salaam o alaikum wa rahmatullah
Reply

ameen
03-09-2006, 05:18 AM
As-salamu'alaikum,

Please read this:


Narrated by Jabir Ibn Abdullah that the Prophet said:

"ALL WOMEN ARE EVIL AND SHOULD BE BURIED ALIVE."














Note: This Hadith is 'Fabricated' -

- as it has just been made-up by me to exemplify how weak / false Hadith can in-fact be used to 'make a point'.
Reply

seek.learn
03-09-2006, 05:35 AM
Assalaam o alaikum,

Aye, and I pay this no heed since I know it to be false. Thereby, if a scholar is saying a hadith is fabricated, I could care less what he's trying to prove cause if it isnt true, it isnt true and all thts left to me is to share what I've learnt and hope to learn more.
If a scholar is saying a hadith is fabricated or weak, and someone clearly reads that and still chooses to spread it and use/misuse it for whatever reason, then it isnt the scholar, but the person using it whose wrong.

AllahuAlim.
May Allah guide us. Aameen.

Alaikum salaam wa rahmatullah
Reply

ameen
03-09-2006, 06:00 AM
salam,

It is in-fact hypocritical to enforce a point using weak hadith and then expect others to not spread them around.

If a scholar uses such weak hadith to strengthen his argument (e.g. persuading and frightening the women into being submissive to their husbands - see earlier part of this thread), then he is Not doing anyone favours but himself - by using such hadith to serve his own interests.
Reply

seek.learn
03-09-2006, 06:08 AM
Assalamoalaikum wa rahmatullah

Agreed, but that is if indeed he is trying to force his point. Depends on what he has in mind. Again, truth be told, I cant say anything for sure here, cause i havent read this book in particular.
But Allah(SWT) knows best what this author has in mind. If he is going to use a false hadith, Knowing that it is false, to live his life, then yes it is wrong. But Allah(SWT) knows the states of our hearts. And to Him we shall be called into account.
It is not my place to judge him. His matter is with Allah. I will be questioned about what I did. Use his justification and live my life falsely as well or make the better choice?

May Allah guide us. Aameen.

AllahuAlim!

Alaikum Salaam wa rahmatullah
Reply

AceOfHearts
03-09-2006, 10:45 AM
:sl: Islam-truth,

Hope you are well my brother/sister,

Let us take the "hadith" Ameen has just made up as an extreme case example.
Would one endorse a scholar to use a hadith like that, say in one of his books? Ofcourse not. You would not endorse it as you've already said in your post. Even if the auther says "this hadith is considered weak by the scholars", you would still not agree it being there, you would rather him not put in there in the first place. LIKEWISE, scholars who use other un-authentic and weak nerrations in their books CANNOT justify it just by mentioning "it is weak". I hope you see my point.

I am sure you will agree, such scholars who do this do more harm to the general reader and the overall society than they do good [by letting them know it is weak] because it only serves to propagate these hadiths into the society, not the other way round as you and brother Ansar-Al-Adl have suggested.

Lastly, I agree with your point that disagreeing or rejecting some hadiths should not mean one has to reject everything in hadiths as false.

Peace. :)

PS. I know of very obscene hadiths [or to me they are] out there collected approx. 500 years After Hijra (AH). For interests sake, would one regard it as authentic and 'words of the prophet' if that hadith came with a complete chain in which all the nerrators within the chain are known to be sound?
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-09-2006, 04:42 PM
:sl: br. seek.learn,
Originally Posted by seek.learn
And, about the author having quoted false or week hadith. First and foremost, please, I only present my opinion since I havent read this book completely. However, I remember reading a book on the stories of the Prophets (Apologies, I forget by whom it was). In this, the author mentioned three or four hadith in relation to Hadhrat Sulaiman (AS) and clearly said along the lines of 'however scholars think or say this is weak'. My first reaction to that was,'why on earth quote something that is weak? it shouldnt be mentioned at all!'. But, after a while, it occured to me that If he hadnt mentioned those hadith, in relation to that topic, and had only mentioned the authentic ones with no mention of which ones were weak, and I were to ever come across those false hadith in any manner, it would lead me to confusion. Since he DID mention all those hadith, in relation to the topic, if ever Iam to come across those weak hadith or if ever i hear someone quote them as authentic, Im in a better position to to know better for myself, and God willing let that person know the same.

If a scholar mentions all the hadith in relation to a topic, and he clearly specifies which ones are weak and unauthentic, how can he possibly be using it to prove what ever you say he's trying to prove? Allah (SWT) knows the state of hearts. We are in no place to judge. What matters is what I do about it! If an author mentions a weak hadith and Says it is weak, that is for me to know and remember and let all those around me Know about its weakness! The hadith about knowledge and china is not authentic as brother Ansar mentioned but its taught in Schools!! I was taught it from grade 5 onwards!

Mentioning which hadiths are out there and which are considered false or weak is a far better way of ensuring that, God willing, their usage will decrease than by not mentioning them at all.
JazakumAllahu khayran! :) You explained very clearly the point I was trying to convey.

It should also be noted that traditionally, the scholars used to quote all the common narrations in their books and discuss them, commenting on their strength or weakness. They did not bring obscure sayings that no one had likely heard of.
:w:
Reply

seek.learn
03-10-2006, 03:54 PM
Salaam o alaikum wa rahmatullah

AllahuAlim!

Although I stand by part of what I said earlier, cause I really think it was better that I knew about the ahadith that are weak or unauthentic and also that one cannot ignore all ahadith because of the weak ones, however I think I see now where you are coming from.
It goes down to how the author says it. If he says it in a manner where he's simply presenting all thats there (as was with what I read in the prophets stories) then its all cool. However just two days or something ago I was at a question and answer website (linked from somewhere from this forum) and in it someone had asked a question regarding a hadith. In the reply the scholar (im assuming its a scholar) mentions a hadith in a way that is kind of enforcing the point of view and then he says that 'but' scholars think its weak.

I see where your coming from, and I agree with you in regards with this.

Depends on how the scholar is using that hadith.

I apologize for not having seen it before.

Jazakallahu Khairun!

AllahuAlim!
May Allah guide us and forgive us. Aameen.

Alaikum salaam wa rahmatullah
Reply

ameen
03-11-2006, 04:19 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

It should also be noted that traditionally, the scholars used to quote all the common narrations in their books and discuss them, commenting on their strength or weakness. They did not bring obscure sayings that no one had likely heard of.

As-salamu'alaikum,

okay then, let us take another example to show you how men have been using weak / false hadith against females / women: Female Genital Mutilation / Female Circumcision.

There is obviously no such thing to be found in the Qur'an.


An excerpt from a website on Muslim Women's rights says this:


"Those who advocate for Female Genital Mutilation from an Islamic perspective commonly quote the following hadith to argue that it is required as part of the Sunnah or Tradition of the Prophet:

"Um Atiyyat al-Ansariyyah said: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (pbuh) said to her: Do not cut too severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband."

"This is known to be a "weak" hadith in that it does not meet the strict criteria to be considered unquestionable (classified as mursal, i.e. missing a link in the chain of transmitters in that none was among the original Companions of the Prophet.) ... According to Sayyid Sabiq, renowned scholar and author of Fiqh-us-Sunnah, all hadiths concerning female circumcision are non-authentic.""

- http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/p...apers/fgm.html



Yet, you get scholars / sheikhs preaching that the crime is an act of 'Sunnah' :

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ln...&QR=1188&dgn=3


..or even that it is OBLIGATORY ! :

http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/S...&lang=E&Id=656

e.g. in this book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/091...lance&n=283155
 
 
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-11-2006, 04:49 AM
:sl:
This was already discussed in this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...cumcision.html

:w:
Reply

ameen
03-11-2006, 04:59 AM
salam,

so you see, these people have been using such weak Hadith, which are surely lies, in their books and speeches to make their points.

you can't really deny it - it's very clear.


and this only serves to corrupt Islam, as such lies are obviously innovation / Bidah.
Reply

AceOfHearts
03-11-2006, 07:02 AM
All taken from the one and only "authentic" sunnipath.com :

"While scholars have distinguished between a man's right to "demand" sex and a woman's right to "request" sex..."

"A woman may not have an explicit legal right to demand sex in the same fashion as a man..."

"In Islam, marriage is a form of contract, based on the premise that the woman will make herself sexually available to the man with his promise that he will support her and their children."

"the wife must obey her husband in his request for sexual intimacy unless she has a valid reason. She must obey him as long as she does not have to forego her own rights."

"It will be a grave sin, in normal circumstances, for the wife to refuse her husband, and even more, if this leads the husband into the unlawful"

"Yes, it is sinful for a man to consistently refuse his wife. Note the word "consistently."..."

"RE: "Can a husband force his wife to have sex?"

Answer: It is not a question of “the Islamic opinion” but, rather, the ruling of Allah and His Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace)..."


"In the same way We assigned to each prophet an enemy, evil humans and evil jinn. They suggest alluring words to one another in order to deceive - if it had been your Lord's will, [Prophet], they would not have done this: leave them to their inventions - so that the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter may incline towards their deceit, be pleased with it, and so perpetrate whatever they perpetrate. [Say], 'Shall I seek any judge other than God, when it is He who has sent down the Scripture, clearly explained, for you [people]?' " [Quran 6:112-114]
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-11-2006, 02:31 PM
:sl: Ameen,
Originally Posted by Ameen-
salam,

so you see, these people have been using such weak Hadith, which are surely lies, in their books and speeches to make their points.
Actually, the opinions you cited on female circumcision (which is NOT pharaonic circumcision, by the way) are not based on weak hadith. Please check the thread I linked.

you can't really deny it - it's very clear.
If you mean the fact that weak hadith exist, then of course I never have denied that. But none of the fatawa you cited were based on weak hadith. What exactly is your point?

:sl: Companion,
All taken from the one and only "authentic" sunnipath.com :

"While scholars have distinguished between a man's right to "demand" sex and a woman's right to "request" sex..."

"A woman may not have an explicit legal right to demand sex in the same fashion as a man..."

"In Islam, marriage is a form of contract, based on the premise that the woman will make herself sexually available to the man with his promise that he will support her and their children."

"the wife must obey her husband in his request for sexual intimacy unless she has a valid reason. She must obey him as long as she does not have to forego her own rights."

"It will be a grave sin, in normal circumstances, for the wife to refuse her husband, and even more, if this leads the husband into the unlawful"

"Yes, it is sinful for a man to consistently refuse his wife. Note the word "consistently."..."

"RE: "Can a husband force his wife to have sex?"

Answer: It is not a question of “the Islamic opinion” but, rather, the ruling of Allah and His Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace)..."
What does this have to do with anything?

:w:
Reply

ameen
03-11-2006, 03:15 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
But none of the fatawa you cited were based on weak hadith. What exactly is your point?
salam,

If the scholars are not making their point based on weak hadith, and there aren't any stronger hadith on the matter, AND nothing like that is in the Qur'an,

then on what exactly are they basing their opinions ?


these scholars really do speak out of desire, rather than evidence then?
 
 
Reply

AceOfHearts
03-11-2006, 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
:sl: Companion,

What does this have to do with anything?

:w:
Wa alaikum as salaam brother,
This discussion is on hadiths, no?
I believe in the Almighty, His revelations and His prophets. But I refuse to accept all these nonsensical preachings made by such scholars. I dont know about you brother, but to me [what I have posted] are extremely abhorrent and repulsive. I refuse to accept these teachings. I dont believe these things the scholars teach the Muslims are the original preachings of the Messenger of Allah. :)

"Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah."[Quran 33:21]
Reply

ameen
03-13-2006, 07:48 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Because there is an emphasis on obedience to the husband in Islam...

salam,

Just like you have been wrongly made to believe that such doctrines are "in Islam", so too have many men who take advantage of the lies they find in some hadith.

so, under the guise of : "the Prophet said this!" , "but Ibn Abbas said that!", they manage to find justification for 'punishing their wives', often by beating them up, because they have felt that their wives have become 'disobedient wives',


..after all, it  IS  "in Islam"..
 
 
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-13-2006, 04:36 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Ameen-
salam,

If the scholars are not making their point based on weak hadith, and there aren't any stronger hadith on the matter, AND nothing like that is in the Qur'an,

then on what exactly are they basing their opinions ?
There are authentic hadith from which they have derived their ruling.

Just like you have been wrongly made to believe that such doctrines are "in Islam", so too have many men who take advantage of the lies they find in some hadith.
Again you refuse to distinguish between authentic hadith and hadith that have been classified as weak. Why? What I have mentioned is part of Islam, because it is found in authentic hadith. You follow your personal desires and choose to reject any hadith you don't like. That is not the characteristic of a true Muslim. When something has been authentically reported from the Prophet Muhammad saws, our response should only be as the Qur'an mentions

24:51 The answer of the Believers, when summoned to Allah and His Messenger, in order that He may judge between them, is no other than this: they say, "We hear and we obey": it is such as these that will attain felicity.

they manage to find justification for 'punishing their wives', often by beating them up
Prove it. Show me where it says this in THE AUTHENTIC HADITH. Don't just spout nonsense here and expect me to take your word for it.

This discussion is on hadiths, no?
I believe in the Almighty, His revelations and His prophets. But I refuse to accept all these nonsensical preachings made by such scholars.
The problem is you are using your personal whims and desires to tell you what is right and what is wrong. The Qur'an forbids this and tells us to only follow what is from the Qur'an and the Sunnah:

33:36. It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allâh and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in a plain error.

Like I said before, hadith-rejectors (which you have clearly proven yourself to be now) do not study the sciences of hadith and then pass their judgement on a hadith after academic analysis. Instead, they are just average Muslims who come across hadith that they don't understand or don't like and they reject it based on their whims. This is, of course, unacceptable.

I dont know about you brother, but to me [what I have posted] are extremely abhorrent and repulsive.
What is 'extremely abhorrent' and 'repulsive' about the fact that the Prophet mentioned that the husbands have a right to relations and the wives have a right to good treatment?

I refuse to accept these teachings.
You will be asked about it on the day of judgement - Why you rejected the authentic hadith that have been agreed upon by every Muslim scholar for centuries all the way from the time of the companions themselves; why you had the arrogance to think that your personal inclinations were the ultimate criterion, and that they had greater weight than the consensus of all the Muslims scholars and the practice of all Muslims since the time of the companions.

I dont believe these things the scholars teach the Muslims are the original preachings of the Messenger of Allah
Why? If you want to reject authentic hadith you need to have a very strong reason that you think the entire Muslim Ummah hasn't noticed.

What has become clear for both of you, Ameen and Companion, is that you reject hadith that are unanimously agreed to be authentic and you do it for no good reason. There is not a single authentic hadith you have brought forward that contradicts the Qur'an or any of the Islamic values laid down therein. One who does this had adopted one's personal whims as one's guide in life as opposed to the sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad saws.
:w:
Reply

Mohsin
03-13-2006, 05:44 PM
Ameen, why don't you just post the exact hadith that you think are weak which you think they are not in accordance with teachings with the Qur'an. The problem is, you probably just haven't understood these hadith, and have misinterpreted them, or maybe you have seen someone else misinterpret them and abuse them, but because someone else has done wrong, you can't say all hadith are weak because of that. Just post the hadith you don't understand and i'm sure Bro Ansar can help you understand inshallah or clarify on any misconceptions :)
Reply

ameen
03-13-2006, 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
There are authentic hadith from which they have derived their ruling.
salam,


'authentic hadith' on circumcising females?


show me please.



There is no sin whatsoever for a Muslim refusing to accept a hadith (yes - even from the ones classified as 'sahih' by some),

because Allah has not given the Hadith such authority in the Qur'an.
 
 
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-13-2006, 06:53 PM
:sl: Ameen,
Originally Posted by Ameen-
salam,


'authentic hadith' on circumcising females?


show me please.
Well you quoted a fatwa from IslamQA but you did not quote their longer fatwa which explains their view and mentions the hadith:

In Madeenah there was a woman who circumcised women and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her: “Do not go to the extreme in cutting; that is better for the woman and more liked by the husband.” Narrated by Abu Dawood (5271), classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

There are other hadith found in virtually every compilation which mention that ghusl is obligatory when the two circumcised parts meet, and these hadith have been authenticated by numerous scholars. This indicates that this was an acceptable practice at the time of the Prophet saws.

Personally, I agree with the view of scholars who say that especially today it is better that this practice be avoided, but that doesn't mean that the positions of other scholars are based on weak hadith.

As a side point, In the book on Traditions that affect the health of women and children, which was published by the World Health Organization in 1979 it says:
With regard to the type of female circumcision which involves removal of the prepuce of the clitoris, which is similar to male circumcision, no harmful health effects have been noted.



There is no sin whatsoever for a Muslim refusing to accept a hadith (yes - even from the ones classified as 'sahih' by some),

because Allah has not given Hadith such authority in the Qur'an.
I would suggest that you follow br. Moss's advice and bring specific hadith that you have difficult accepting and we can discuss them inshaa'Allah. As for rejecting authentic hadith, yes it is a sin, because if you know the hadith is authentic then it is rejecting the statement of the Prophet saws.

:w:
Reply

ameen
03-13-2006, 07:41 PM
salam,

This is not following the Prophet, this is following evil and the works of Shaitan,

it is far from following the Prophet - it's falsehood that aims to please
human-beings - to please men - to please 'husbands'.

these people have abused the name of 'Sunnah' and have corrupted the surface of Islam.

I'm just gob-smacked at the moment.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-14-2006, 04:27 AM
:sl: br. Ameen,
Originally Posted by Ameen-
This is not following the Prophet, this is following evil and the works of Shaitan
To say that since the time of the companions, all the Muslim scholars have been folloing evil and the works of Shaytan - that's a pretty strong claim, isn't it?

it is far from following the Prophet - it's falsehood that aims to please
human-beings - to please men - to please 'husbands'.
Perhaps you missed the other hadith I quoted which talk about pleasing women. And I'm sure you must have read the hadith in Sahih Muslim which describes a man who fights with his wife as one who is driven by the most evil devil.

I'm just gob-smacked at the moment.
Well when you're gob has recovered from the smacking, please bring forward a hadith and we can discuss it.

:w:
Reply

Mohsin
03-14-2006, 07:13 AM
Originally Posted by Ameen-
salam,

This is not following the Prophet, this is following evil and the works of Shaitan,

it is far from following the Prophet - it's falsehood that aims to please
human-beings - to please men - to please 'husbands'.

these people have abused the name of 'Sunnah' and have corrupted the surface of Islam.

I'm just gob-smacked at the moment.

Please, just bring one hadith that you think shows men are superior to women, and which has been classed as authentic, then we'll get to the bottom of the problem
Reply

ameen
03-14-2006, 01:37 PM
As-salamu'alaikum,

Earlier I posted this hadith on female-circumcision and referred you (admin) to an article which states that it is classified as 'weak':


"Um Atiyyat al-Ansariyyah said: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (pbuh) said to her: Do not cut too severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband."

"This is known to be a "weak" hadith in that it does not meet the strict criteria to be considered unquestionable ... According to Sayyid Sabiq, renowned scholar and author of Fiqh-us-Sunnah, all hadiths concerning female circumcision are non-authentic.""

- http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/p...apers/fgm.html


You then quoted the SAME hadith and said it is "classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.",

- http://www.islamicboard.com/210194-post53.html


now tell me please,


a) Why are these scholars differing in deciding the authenticity of this hadith?


and


b) Why have you decided to follow the latter scholar and NOT the "renowned scholar and author of Fiqh-us-Sunnah"?
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-14-2006, 03:00 PM
:sl: br. Ameen,
Originally Posted by Ameen-
"Um Atiyyat al-Ansariyyah said: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (pbuh) said to her: Do not cut too severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband."

"This is known to be a "weak" hadith in that it does not meet the strict criteria to be considered unquestionable ... According to Sayyid Sabiq, renowned scholar and author of Fiqh-us-Sunnah, all hadiths concerning female circumcision are non-authentic.""

- http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/p...apers/fgm.html
The first problem here is that they don't give a reference to Shaykh Sayyid Sabiq's comment. The second problem is that they don't state if he declared this specific hadith to be unauthentic, they only state a very general verdict which obviously cannot refer to all the hadith since some of them are of undisputed authenticity:
A’ishah (radiyallaahu anha) reported that Allaah’s Messenger (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) said:

“When the two location of circumcision (of man and woman) meet, ghusl [1] becomes obligatory”. [Recorded by Muslim, Ahmad and others].

Similarly, A’ishah (radiyallaahu anha) reported that Allaah’s Messenger (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) said:

“Once he (the man) sits between her (the woman’s) four limbs and the (man’s); location of circumcision touches the (woman’s) location of circumcision, the ghusl becomes compulsory”. [Recorded by al-Bukharee, Muslim, and others].

And in a third narration, A’ishah (radiyallaahu anha) reported that Allaah’s Messenger (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) said:

“When the (man’s) location of circumcision enters past the (woman’s) location of circumcision, ghusl becomes obligatory”. [Recorded by at-Tirmithi, Ibn Majah, and Ahmed. Verified to be authentic by al-Albaanee (al-Mishkat no. 442 & Irwaa ul-Ghalil no. 80)].

In the above narrations, the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) describes both the male and female sex organs as “khitaan”, which means, “location of circumcision”. This again indicates that female circumcision was a known and acceptable practise.
Based on the hadith above, the verdict of sunnah for female circumcision was derived.

a) Why are these scholars differing in deciding the authenticity of this hadith?
Suppose we give these people the benefit of the doubt and assume that Shaykh Sayyid Sabiq actually views this specific hadith to be unauthentic, and Shaykh Al-Albani views it to be authentic. This is still nothing new; there are a handful of hadith which scholars have disagreed on their authenticity, but this is nothing compared to the vast collection of indisputably authentic hadith. There is a legitimate difference of opinion on this issue.
b) Why have you decided to follow the latter scholar and NOT the "renowned scholar and author of Fiqh-us-Sunnah"?
I haven't. Remember I told you that this was not the opinion I go with. You wanted to know the evidence for these other opinions so I quoted them for you.

Now I want to ask you again, please bring forward the hadith you want to discuss on women, and inshaa'Allah we will discuss it.

:w:
Reply

ameen
03-15-2006, 10:12 PM
As-salamu'alaikum wr wb,

You make it sound as if I am here talking about just one or two hadith,

well sorry to bust your bubble, but that just is not the case -

MOST HADITH ON WOMEN ARE LIKE THAT ...

just look around you , on this forum! People are constantly posting nonsense regarding women's roles and attributes - derived from what? - from such hadith!

and even in this thread - just how many hadith have been mentioned so far?

Many of them are included in this category - and no matter what you say the scholars have graded them - A Muslim does not have to believe they are true.

- and no, when the believers say 'we hear and we obey' (referred to in the Qur'an), this does NOT include the hadith, which did not even exist (like they do now) during the time of the Prophet!

- so that trick is not going to work.

If we were to simply 'hear and obey' some of the nonsense that some scholars and sheikhs preach, as have been evident from even the discussion in this thread, then we'd be treading on a similar path to that of previous misguided generations - who were mislead simply because they followed others blindly.
 
Reply

FatimaAsSideqah
03-16-2006, 01:38 AM
:sl:

Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Brother, first of all, we’d like to say that we are impressed by your question, which emanates from a thoughtful heart. May Allah Almighty help us all adhere to the principles of this true religion, Islam, and enable us to be among the dwellers of Paradise in the Hereafter, Ameen.

To explain the Islamic point of view concerning the hadiths that seemingly contradict reason or science, we’d like to quote the following explanation stated by Dr. Amin Rida in At-Tawhid magazine (May 1977):

“No one has the authority to describe a hadith as unauthentic owing to a seeming contradiction with science. This is because science changes and develops from time to time. No one can deny this fact, namely the change and development of science with the passage of time. Consequently, no one is entitled to deprive an authentic hadith from authenticity on a basis of a seeming conflict with a scientific rule.


Also, conflict between reason and an authentic hadith cannot deprive the latter from authenticity owing to some factors that affect reason such as intelligence, knowledge, etc.”



In response to your question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:



“Your question needs a detailed answer, but I would briefly state the following:



Not everything reported as hadith is considered a hadith from the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). Hundreds of scholars have worked diligently to establish a scientific methodology of sorting and authenticating the traditions that can be safely attributed to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). One of the principal criteria for verifying hadith is that it should not contradict reason or empirical facts.



Another criterion is that it must not contradict the fundamental principles established by the Qur'an and authentic Sunnah.



Thirdly, in order for a hadith to be acceptable, it must have been reported and transmitted through a reliable chain of transmission where every link is considered known and reliable.



Having said this, we must guard against dismissing certain traditions which may appear to be contradicting reason while on a deeper study it would be found that it is our interpretation that is wrong, not the hadith itself. This often happens in regards to matters where human reason cannot operate, namely, that which is related to matters of ghayb (Unseen). As believers, we must believe that this area of reality is not accessible to reason or empirical knowledge. The only avenue for this knowledge is revelation from Allah. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) received inspirations other than the Qur'an regarding such matters, which is often related in the Hadith.



So do not rush to conclude that all hadiths are fabricated. And also we must never attribute falsehood to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). By having doubt about the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) we are rejecting the entire Qur'an as well.



So, pray to Allah to make your heart steadfast on the right religion.”

Dr. Sano Koutoub Moustapha, professor of Fiqh and Its Principles, International Islamic University, Malaysia, adds:

“I do thank the questioner, and pray to Allah to guide all of us and strengthen our iman.

It is known that there are two types of revelation: the first one is called al-wahyu az-zahir, meaning the clear and direct revelation; and the second is called al-wahyu al-batin, meaning the hidden and indirect revelation. The first one refers to the glorious Qur'an, while the second one refers to the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). As Muslims we are obliged to believe in both, based on many verses in the Qur'an such as Al-Baqarah 32, Al-Ma’idah 92, Al `Imran 59, et cetera. Accordingly, no belief is considered acceptable before Allah if it is based on separation between these two types of revelation.

However, there are differences between them in terms of their authenticity and authority. The whole Qur'an is known to be definitive and free from falsification and forgery, while the Sunnah is divided into definitive and speculative. The former is authentic and free from any falsification, while the latter has been subject to falsification and forgery. But, unless a Hadith is proven to be unauthentic, we have to believe in it and accept it.

As for the claim of having many hadiths contradicting scientific realities, I shall say that there is no such authentic hadith at all. Meaning, if a Hadith is found to be in contradiction with scientific realities, this hadith must be a false one or the so-called scientific reality is not, in fact, a reality. Therefore, one will have to conclude that the contradiction will never occur between an authentic hadith and a scientific reality, and if there is any contradiction, it must be because of a misunderstanding of either the revelation or the scientific reality, or both of them at the same time.

Based on this, I would like to confirm to our beloved brother that there is no contradiction between an authentic hadith and Qur'anic verses or scientific realities. Further, I would also like to clarify to him that the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) never said any hadith to suit his own needs. His actions are considered to be an application of the meaning of the Qur'an. Yet, it is true that there are some Sunnahs of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) that are based on a particular culture and tradition, and such type of Sunnah is not considered as legislation for Muslims at all. This type refers to his preference in food, ways of talking, looking and walking, and the color and type of his dress, etc. This type of Sunnah is known as non-legislative Sunnah and it is not a part of the religion, meaning nobody is obliged to follow it.

Finally, I recommend our brother to read a wonderful book written by Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi titled How We Deal with the Sunnah. Surely, he will get a lot of knowledge and clarification about many things related to the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

May Allah guide all of us on right path and strengthen our love to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).”

If you are still in need of more information, don't hesitate to contact us. Do keep in touch. May Allah guide us all to the straight path!

Allah Almighty knows best.

:w:
Reply

Issa
03-16-2006, 04:20 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
:sl:

I never disputed that there are fabricated or unauthentic hadith out there. But our scholars and Muhaditheen have already studied them and classified them, and if someone reads a hadith they should ask the scholars concerning its authenticity and context.

The issue here is your campaign against hadith and the fact that you attribute someone's bad manners to hadith without any basis for this at all!


Yes, let's talk about Imam Adh-Dhahabi's book, Al-Kabâ'ir. First of all, if anyone read the book properly they would see that the chapter right after women is about men! And Imam Adh-Dhahabi begins the chapter by writing:
Lest one should suppose that all the responsibilities are on the wife and all the rights belong to the husband, we mention that the husband is obliged to be gentle, kind, and loving to his wife. He must show forbearance and patience toward her in case she is occasionally abusive or ill-tempered. It is his duty to feed and clothe her and to provide for her needs well, within his means, according to the command of Allah Most High: Live with them on a footing of kindness and equity (4:19) and the advice of the Prophet: Consult with women. Indeed, you have some rights over your women and they have some rights over you. It is their right on you that you provide for their food and clothing generously, and your right on them is that they do not let anyone whom you dislike in the house, walking upon your floor. (Related by Ibn Majah and Tirmidhi who declared it Hasan Saheeh)

He said: "The best among you is the one who is best to his wife" (Related by Ibn Hibban) in another version it is the one who is most kind to his wife. The Prophet himself was very gentle and kind in dealing with women.

The Prophet saws also said: "If any man shows patience with his wife's bad temper, Allah will give him a reward similar to the reward of Ayyub (Job) for his patience, and if any woman shows patience with her husband's bad temper, Allah will give her a reward similar to the reward of Asiyah daughter of Muzahim, the wife of Pharoah (Cf. Qur'an 66:11)."

It is reported that a man came to 'Umar ibn Al-Khattab raa to complain about his wife's ill-temper. While he was waiting for 'Umar to come out of his house, he heard 'Umar's wife scolding him and 'Umar quietly listening to her, and not answering her back. The man turned around and started walking away, muttering to himself: "If that is the case with 'Umar, the leader of the believers, who is famous for his uprighteness and toughness, then what about poor me?!" At that moment, 'Umar came out of his house and saw the man walking away. He called him and said, "What is it you want of me, O man?" The man replied: "O leader of the believers, I came to complain to you about my wife's bad-temper and how she nags me. Then I heard your wife doing the same to you, so I turned around, muttering to myself, 'If that is the situation of the leader of the believers, then what about me?'" 'Umar replied, "O my brother, I bear with her because of her rights over me. She cooks my food, bakes my bread, washes my clothes, breast-feeds my child...and yet none of these are her duty;* and then she is a comfort to my heart and keeps me away from forbidden deeds. Consequently, I bear with her." The man said, "It is the same with me, O leader of the believers." 'Umar said: "Then, O my brother, be patient with her, indeed this life is short. (Adh-Dhahabi, Al-Kabâ'ir 194)
The last hadith about 'Umar is a beautiful example of the lofty status that Islam has given women. The Khalifa himself used to listen patiently while his wife scolded him and he instructed his followers to likewise be patient and grateful for all the favours their wives gave them. Dr. M. Moinuddin Siddiqui, who has translated Al-Kabâ'ir into english, includes the following footnote in the place I have marked above with an asterisk [*]:
According to the Shari'ah, a Muslim wife has no obligation to do all this; rather, it is the husband's obligation to take care of it [either himself or] by hiring a servant (or even, in the case of breast-feeding, a wet-nurse). Therefore, if a woman does this, it is out of good-will and compliance on her part, not because it is obligatory on her, and conseuqnelty it is a cause for appreciation and helpfulness on the part of her husband. (Translator)
So we can see quite clearly that far from being mysognistic, the book of Imam Dhahabi contains beautiful hadith which shed light on the equity and justice of Islam.

As for the other hadith Imam Dhahab quotes earlier in his chapter on women, yes some of them are unauthentic but he mentions this and gives the source each time. So if anyone reads his work they will not be misguided. Besides, when someone reads these things they can always confirm them with a scholar and find out from our shuyukh the status of these ahadith.

:w:

As-salamu Alaykum,

I don't know a lot about hadith yet. I am new to Islam. I think you made a point here. The Imam has marked all hadith (authentic and unauthentic). I think what Ameen is trying to say is that a person reading the hadith may decide on his own which one to follow and which one to push aside. I mean no disrespect to Ameen but I think he/she(sorry it doesn't say..) is putting blame on the wrong person (the author/Imam). If I don't like a certain hadith I can tell myself it is unauthentic or ignore it ( I shouldn't but I can) and if I like another I can run with it a base my lifestyle off of it. I think the abusive man from the other thread may be doing this or he may just be disturbed....
Reply

ameen
03-16-2006, 04:30 AM
wsalam wr wb,

The author quotes hadith (authentic or not - or even no source)

and then he USES HIS OWN WORDS to EXPLAIN THEM TO THE READER -

so, for example, he will quote a hadith that says a woman's husband is her Heaven or Hell, and then go on to preach / convey / explain TO THE READER what this means - in terms of duties / obedience to the husband (this is only a mild example),


if this is not the author's fault, then whose is it?
 
 
Reply

seek.learn
03-16-2006, 04:33 AM
Salaam o alaikum wa rahmatullah

AllahuAlim

I felt that way at first as well, that the blame might be on the wrong side. But I now feel Ameen has a point too. At the end of the day, as I firmly believe, you can never blame one side alone, one thing alone. Cant clap with one hand. I personally tend to tilt more towards putting the blame on people who may not choose to gain more knowledge or to seek out the truth (May Allah have mercy and guide me and us all, Aameen). But it plays both ways. Indeed scholars should very well know, just as we do, that false ahadith are mis-used. So if ever they state or mention one, they should not do so in a way that could mislead people, and should be very clear about it's strength.
To refuse all ahadith? well, the previous posts have been very clear about that.

The scholars are relied upon by the majority, and sadly our majority is not literate (Islamically). That puts alot of responsibility on the scholars to be careful about what and how they portray anything. But after that, Shaitan is with everyone, and if one makes the wrong choice... To Allah is our final return, and to Him we shall all answer.

JazakAllahu khairun for the very informative posts.

May Allah guide and forgive us All. Aameen.

AllahuAlim
Alaikum Salaam wa rahmatullah
Reply

Wahid
03-16-2006, 10:01 AM
Originally Posted by seek.learn
Salaam o alaikum,

AllahuAlim.
May Allah guide us, Aameen.

Just wanted to present an opinion.
Without a doubt there are false hadith out there. What we need to do is educate ourselves and then, InshaAllah, educate people about it. No one denies that there are false hadith, but as brother Ansar says, can you completely ignore All hadith on that basis?

And, about the author having quoted false or week hadith. First and foremost, please, I only present my opinion since I havent read this book completely. However, I remember reading a book on the stories of the Prophets (Apologies, I forget by whom it was). In this, the author mentioned three or four hadith in relation to Hadhrat Sulaiman (AS) and clearly said along the lines of 'however scholars think or say this is weak'. My first reaction to that was,'why on earth quote something that is weak? it shouldnt be mentioned at all!'. But, after a while, it occured to me that If he hadnt mentioned those hadith, in relation to that topic, and had only mentioned the authentic ones with no mention of which ones were weak, and I were to ever come across those false hadith in any manner, it would lead me to confusion. Since he DID mention all those hadith, in relation to the topic, if ever Iam to come across those weak hadith or if ever i hear someone quote them as authentic, Im in a better position to to know better for myself, and God willing let that person know the same.

If a scholar mentions all the hadith in relation to a topic, and he clearly specifies which ones are weak and unauthentic, how can he possibly be using it to prove what ever you say he's trying to prove? Allah (SWT) knows the state of hearts. We are in no place to judge. What matters is what I do about it! If an author mentions a weak hadith and Says it is weak, that is for me to know and remember and let all those around me Know about its weakness! The hadith about knowledge and china is not authentic as brother Ansar mentioned but its taught in Schools!! I was taught it from grade 5 onwards!

Mentioning which hadiths are out there and which are considered false or weak is a far better way of ensuring that, God willing, their usage will decrease than by not mentioning them at all.

And people even distort our Quran to get their own meanings out of it. We cant possibly abandon that can we? ofcoarse not!
Yes scholars are only Human. But is it Just of me to classify ahadith unauthentic because other [B]Humans[B] misunderstand and misuse them?

May Allah guide us all. Aameen.
AllahuAlim!

Salaam o alaikum wa rahmatullah
salam

very well said brother
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-16-2006, 04:26 PM
:sl: Ameen,
It is unfortunate that you continually refuse to meet my request. Instead of bringing me a hadith you feel promotes a negative view towards women, you say:
Originally Posted by Ameen-
You make it sound as if I am here talking about just one or two hadith,

well sorry to bust your bubble, but that just is not the case -

MOST HADITH ON WOMEN ARE LIKE THAT ...
Sorry but this kind of stunt is not going to work. I'm not some ignorant person who has never read ahadith; I know what the hadith say and I know that YOU have yet to provide evidence to back up your wild claims.

and even in this thread - just how many hadith have been mentioned so far?
Quite a few and all of them promoting women's rights and showing the elevation of women in Islam.
The Prophet singled out the education of women and their kind treatment by promising paradise to those who fulfilled this right of women:
Anyone who cares for three daughter, gives them a good upbringing, marries them to good husbands and treats them well, they will enter paradise. (Abu Dawud)
Notice that he didn't mention sons in the above hadith. In another hadith, the companions asked him about 2 daugthers and he said, "even two". They asked about one and he said, "even one".

He emphasized education for both males and females:
"Seeking knowledge is mandatory for every Muslim". (Al-Bayhaqi).

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh describes the righteous woman in the most beautiful way:
The life of this world is bountiful, and the best of the bounties of this world is the righteous woman. (Muslim)

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh makes kindness and compassion to women integral to one's piety:
The best of you is the one who is best to his wife. (Ibn Hibban)

"None but a noble man treats women in an honourable manner. And none but an ignoble treats women disgracefully". (Tirmidhi)

The Prophet Muhammd pbuh supported women's freedom of choice in marriage:
Ibn Abbas reported that a girl came to the Messenger of Allah, and she reported that her father had forced her to marry without her consent. The Messenger of God gave her the choice...(between accepting the marriage or invalidating it) (Ahmad).
another version of the report states that
"the girl said: 'Actually, I accept this marriage, but I wanted to let women know that parents have no right to force a husband on them.'" (Ibn Majah)

Once a virgin girl came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said that her father had married her to a man against her wishes. The Prophet gave her the right to repudiate the marriage. (Abu Dawud).

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh supported women's choice to travel to the mosque at night:
Do not prevent women from going to the mosques at night. (Bukhari)

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh supported women's freedom of choice in divorce:
Barira's husband was a slave called Mughith, as if I am seeing him now, going behind Barira and weeping with his tears flowing down his beard. The Prophet said to 'Abbas, "O 'Abbas ! are you not astonished at the love of Mughith for Barira and the hatred of Barira for Mughith?" The Prophet then said to Barira, "Why don't you return to him?" She said, "O Allah's Apostle! Do you order me to do so?" He said, "No, I only intercede for him." She said, "I am not in need of him." (Bukhari)

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh orders consulting with women:
Consult with women. Indeed, you have some rights over your women and they have some rights over you. It is their right on you that you provide for their food and clothing generously, and your right on them is that they do not let anyone whom you dislike in the house, walking upon your floor. (Related by Ibn Majah and Tirmidhi who declared it Hasan Saheeh)

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh describes men and women equally:
"If any man shows patience with his wife's bad temper, Allah will give him a reward similar to the reward of Ayyub (Job) for his patience, and if any woman shows patience with her husband's bad temper, Allah will give her a reward similar to the reward of Asiyah daughter of Muzahim, the wife of Pharoah (Cf. Qur'an 66:11)." (Adh-Dhahabi in Al-Kabâ'ir)

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh told his followers not to marry women for some superficial/external benefit but for their piety:
A woman may be married for four reasons: for her property, her status, her beauty, and her religion; so marry one who is religious, may you be blessed (Bukhari)
This is of course, at a time when women were only used and valued for external appearance of some other superficial characteristic.

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh described a man who fights with his wife as one driven by the most evil devil:
Iblees sets up his throne on the water, then he sends out his raiding parties. The closest to him of these troops are the ones who cause the most tribulation (fitnah). One of them comes and says, 'I have done such and such.' He (Iblees) says, 'You have not done much.' Then another one comes and says, 'I never left him alone until I created trouble and caused division between him and his wife.' Then he (Iblees) comes close to him and says, 'How good you are!' (Muslim)

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh said the most evil person is a man who divulges his wife's secrets:
Verily among the most evil of people with Allah in ranking on the Day of Resurrection is a man who goes to his wife and whose wife goes to him, and then he spreads her secrets. (Muslim 1437, Ahmad 11258, and Abu Dawud 4870)

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh used to help his wives doing housework at home:
A'isha, the wife of the Prophet, was asked, "What did the Prophet used to do at home?" She answered, "He kept himself busy helping the members of his household, and when the time for prayer came, he would go out for the prayer". (Bukhari)

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh said to Abd-Allah ibn 'Amr ibn al-'Aas, who used to fast all day and pray all night:
Do not do that. Fast and break your fast, pray qiyaam and sleep, for your body has a right over you, your eyes have a right over you, your wife has a right over you and your visitors have a right over you. (Bukhari 1874, Muslim 1159)

And of course there is the lofty status of a mother, which the Prophet Muhammad pbuh described:
"A man asked the Prophet: 'Whom should I honor most?' The Prophet replied: 'Your mother'. 'And who comes next?' asked the man. The Prophet replied: 'Your mother'. 'And who comes next?' asked the man. The Prophet replied: 'Your mother!'. 'And who comes next?' asked the man. The Prophet replied: 'Your father'" (Bukhari and Muslim).

And the Prophet pbuh emphasized that paradise could only achieved through serving one's mother with kindness, respect and obedience:
Paradise lies at the feet of your mother (Ahmad, An-Nasaa'i and Ibn Majah)
Now I've quoted for you a list of hadith, so please tell me which hadith it is that you feel are against women.

- and no, when the believers say 'we hear and we obey' (referred to in the Qur'an), this does NOT include the hadith, which did not even exist (like they do now) during the time of the Prophet!
This misconception has been refuted by br. Kadafi here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...eth-myths.html

then we'd be treading on a similar path to that of previous misguided generations
I've never heard the companions and early Muslim scholars referred to as 'misguided generations'!
Reply

Mohsin
03-16-2006, 04:43 PM
Good post bro, Ameen caught contradicting himself. Its funny how he can't bring forward one hadith. It happens all the time, just because some people can't understand something themselves, they think everyone else is just like them and think the same and that this is the only possible interpretation, instead of considering that there are people who have studied hadith for years and years and they would be best to interpret hadith
Reply

MetSudaisTwice
03-16-2006, 04:45 PM
salam
we can only make dua that allah gives and increases our knowledge inshallah as no one is perfect
wasalam
Reply

songinwind
03-17-2006, 03:04 AM
Originally Posted by Ameen-
salam,

yes - his name is Shamsu ed-Deen adh-Dhahabi.


The point is that THERE ARE these hadith out there and they are BEING PUBLISHED under the name of people with 'Imam' as their title like the person mentioned above.


This means that there are people who will / do believe in such lies and adopt obnoxious attitudes toward women.

Since you know the book, perhaps you can see for yourself what I'm talking about?


I really do hate jum[ing in here in the middle of u two's decussion....But what do we as reverts do, concerning Haddith's...I was told to look for reference...Now i feel concerned even about that:X ....maybe later in u decussion, that can be answered for us that converted...peace to u
Reply

seek.learn
03-17-2006, 03:21 AM
Originally Posted by metsudaistwice
salam
we can only make dua that allah gives and increases our knowledge inshallah as no one is perfect
wasalam
Salaam o alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

Ameen!

May Allah guide us and forgive us.
Aameen

Alaikum Salaam wa rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu
Reply

seek.learn
03-17-2006, 03:22 AM
Salam,

So as to not confuse, thats "Aameen!" there.

Wassalaam
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-17-2006, 03:56 AM
Originally Posted by songinwind
I really do hate jum[ing in here in the middle of u two's decussion....But what do we as reverts do, concerning Haddith's...I was told to look for reference...Now i feel concerned even about that:X ....maybe later in u decussion, that can be answered for us that converted...peace to u
:sl: Sister Songinwind,
If you'll read my posts you'll notice that I pointed out that the hadith have been classified according to their authenticity by scholars. It helps to know which hadith compilation the hadith s from. The hadith in Sahih Bukhari are all completely authentic. Almost all the hadith in Sahih Muslim are authentic as well. Sunan Abi Dawud and Sunan An-Nasaa'i come next in authenticity, as the vast majority of hadith in them are authentic, and then comes Sunan Ibn Majah and Sunan At-Tirmidhi which also have a majority of authentic hadith. Together, these compilations are considered the six major compilations of hadith.

What Muslims need to do when they come across a hadith is first inquire as to its authenticity from a scholar (note: this is different from asking a layman their opinion on the hadith). If the hadith is in Bukhari then it is known to be authentic. Secondly, for any hadith one does not understand they should seek explanation and clarification from the scholars. Sometimes people only look at one isolated statement in a narration without considering the historical context, similar narrations, extended narrations and other such material that helps one to understand the hadith.

All one has to do is ask the scholars. An excellent and reliable website which answers questions on Islam is IslamToday.com. To begin learning about the hadith, I strongly suggest that one take a look at the resources listed here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/educatio...resources.html

I hope this helps.
:w:
Reply

Wahid
03-17-2006, 08:37 AM
Originally Posted by Moss
Good post bro, Ameen caught contradicting himself. Its funny how he can't bring forward one hadith. It happens all the time, just because some people can't understand something themselves, they think everyone else is just like them and think the same and that this is the only possible interpretation, instead of considering that there are people who have studied hadith for years and years and they would be best to interpret hadith
salam
yea bro he is making stuff up as he goes without any credible evidence.. wonder what her real intention is
Reply

sargon
03-17-2006, 10:03 AM
:sl:
The problem with haddith's is that people don't understand them, and the mis-understanding leads to women being mistreated. I didn't understand many of the hadiths until bro Ansar cleared it up! (thx btw)

Many Muslim men I talk with have a very negative attitude about girls. Like their "objects," either their to be pious and follow the husband, do their duties, and if they mess up they get labelled as "inferior." And some of the other guys I know think of these girls as mere sex objects, and I think it's because of their ignorance to the real meanings of the haddith on women.

They also take the verses from surah 4 and twist them a little to make it seem like women are "lower." Women aren't lower, we just have different roles. It's pretty obvious, just look at our nature.

And if two people, man and women, are both humble they would never think one race to be better than the other. They would realize they both have strengths and weaknesses, and different rights over the other.

If anything we should try to understand Ameen-, I do. Its horrible how the haddith and quran get twisted and then people end up abusing women.
Reply

swanlake
03-17-2006, 11:24 AM
:sl:

Sorry to butt in but i felt that that i had to say something.

For those who have no confidence in the hadiths, how do you pray? If you have no confidence in your scholars, who explains the Quran? Talking of the Qurtan, how did it come to us if we dont trust those who perserved it for us with the permission of Allah?

Forgive me if i am wrong, but i think you may be Submitters or Quranites who completely disgard the hadiths. Granted there are hadiths that are not authentic and it is for our benefit that we should know about them lest it is misused for their own convenience. We should educate ourselves.
Reply

sargon
03-17-2006, 11:44 AM
Originally Posted by swanlake
:sl:

Sorry to butt in but i felt that that i had to say something.

For those who have no confidence in the hadiths, how do you pray? If you have no confidence in your scholars, who explains the Quran? Talking of the Qurtan, how did it come to us if we dont trust those who perserved it for us with the permission of Allah?

Forgive me if i am wrong, but i think you may be Submitters or Quranites who completely disgard the hadiths. Granted there are hadiths that are not authentic and it is for our benefit that we should know about them lest it is misused for their own convenience. We should educate ourselves.
:sl:
I'm Muslim. It's not possible to reject all hadith. I reject the ones that are said to be un-authentic. How can we pray without hadith? I thought about it, and for a while I rejected some things, but you can't just pick and choose.

I accepted hadiths again after I read all the "good" ones, which outweigh anything that might look bad by so much. They're aren't "bad" haddiths, but the ones that if misunderstood appear to bad, I rejected some of them because I didn't know what they meant. Like more women in hell for example (thx again Ansar may God's blessing be upon you).

My point is that the mis-understanding of haddith causes the prejudice against women, not the haddith itself.
:w:
Reply

AceOfHearts
03-17-2006, 07:21 PM
I stand by my position that just because a hadith is in Bukhari, it does not gurantee it to be the Prophet's nerration. It is only wishful thinking to believe so.

Worrying aspect of it all is Muslims have become diverted from the book of God. Disunity, powerlessness, frustation and factions are the result.
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Nawal89
03-17-2006, 08:27 PM
And you, Companion, only say that of hadeeth, because you see a few hadeeths that you dont agree with, and because you dont know anything about it.

I request for you to study Mustalah, before you go and say that hadeeths are all fabricated.
Reply

AceOfHearts
03-17-2006, 10:26 PM
Originally Posted by Nawal89
before you go and say that hadeeths are all fabricated.

I didnt say that, you did.
Reply

Mohsin
03-18-2006, 12:17 AM
Originally Posted by Companion
I stand by my position that just because a hadith is in Bukhari, it does not gurantee it to be the Prophet's nerration. It is only wishful thinking to believe so.

Worrying aspect of it all is Muslims have become diverted from the book of God. Disunity, powerlessness, frustation and factions are the result.

What proof do you have for your claims?
Are you just making an assumption without even studying hadith.I got to say I've never,to this day, ever met a person who rejects authentic hadith such as Bukhari (Like yourself) who at the same time has studied the science of hadith his or herself. Name me one hadeeth you think is fabricated and why.

Let me give you an example. If the prophet said something, and Person A heard this saying, then A told person B, and B told C, then Bukhari took this narration. Then the exact same hadeeth was heard directly from the prophet by a person D, D told E, E told F then Bukhari heard this narration, and same again with several other narrations, is it then possible for such a hadeeth to be weak when so many different chains of narrations are saying exactly the same thing?
How about this now, say Prophet told something to a companion, lets call thim person A again. obviously as a Sahaabi, he is bound to be pious and honest. lets say this Sahaabi a few years later meets B, someone really really pious, known never to lie, would do so many good things only for sake of Allah, he wouldn't forego even one sunnah, he wouldnt ever be seen drinking water standing up, would never be seen without wearing a hat, would do every possible sunnah possible, so this Sahabi A tells B this narration knowing B is not going to change something so important and crucial as he doesn't ever even commit the smallest of lies, so how can he committ such a big lie about the prophet SAW. similarly B then meets a person C who is also known for his piety, and eventually the chain goes to Imam Bukhari, and he adds it to his book. now how can you class such a hadeeth as weak

I'm not a scholar of hadith, these are simple examples i have been given by students of knowledge and hadith, but it should inshallah help you understand

Now before making such a drastic claim, you really should study the science of hadith before making such strong claims.Have you got any basis for what you say. what argument do you possess that even one Bukhari hadith is weak?

I await your answer
Reply

AceOfHearts
03-18-2006, 02:14 AM
:sl:
The problem is, a chain does not just consist of A, B and C [that would make it pretty reliable!]. A typical Bukhari hadith has roughly 20 to 30 nerrators in its chain, I got this info from somebody who has studied hadiths for years under guidance.

Verify this for your self. Think about it reastically and not in wishful-thinking mode. The only person you know who actually said the hadith is the individual who Bukhari got the hadith from. Practically all the 20-30 individuals are dead. That is why you cannot verify for sure it is 100% from the Prophet, rather you can, based purely on the given chane make a judgment of which has the best chance of being from the Prophet/being true.

It is said Imam Bukhari collected over 300,000 hadiths and he himself memorized 200,000 of which some were unreliable. He was born at a time when Hadith was being forged either to please rulers or kings or to corrupt the religion of Islam... So it was a great task for him to sift the forged hadiths from the authentic ones. He laboured day and night and although he had memorised such a large number he only chose approximately 7,275 with repetition and about 2,230 without repetition of which there is no doubt about their authenticity...Many religious scholars of Islam tried to find fault in the great remarkable collection, Sahih Al-Bukhari, but without success. It is for this reason, they unanimously agreed that the most authentic book after the Book of Allah is Sahih Al-Bukhari.

'Sahih Al-Bukhari' Arabic-English translated by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, publishers Darussalam, Vol. 1, pp 18/19.
[note I have crossed checked the above and found it to be in the Muhsin Khan Bukhari translation]

This is why one cannot say everything in Bukhari or any hadith book written is the infallible truth. Is it not possible he may have included something that is a lie during his process of filtering the forged from the authentic? Is he incapable of making mistakes? Only Allah is infallible.

DISCLAIMER: I am not saying everything is false and has to be rejected.

You wanted proof, I am giving you them. Here is a hadith I find difficult to believe:

Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 188:

Narrated ‘Amru bin Maimun: "During the pre-lslamic period of ignorance I saw a she-monkey surrounded by a number of monkeys. They were all stoning it, because it had committed illegal sexual intercourse. I too, stoned it along with them."

[Note: Pre-Islamic period does not nullify the impossibility of the scenario presented in this hadith. The hadith is not attributed to the prophet.]

Number of things lead me to reject this particular nerration.

1) Since when do monkeys get married?
2) Since when monkeys stone another monkey for a crime?
3) How did the companion know the She-monkey was married?

Several things are wrong with this hadith. Studying under an ulema a lifetime to understand it would still leave me baffled.
Reply

ameen
03-18-2006, 03:19 AM
As-salamu'alaikum wr wb,


I've realised that it's like I have been speaking to myself here.


It is overwhelmingly clear from the above posts just how uncertain / tentative / weak the overall process of classifying hadith ( "Sciences of Hadith" ) REALLY is.


The people here, including the moderators, obviously would not at all find offensive or troubling any of the hadith I would be able to show them regarding the roles, characteristics, duties and nature of women.


So there is no point whatsoever in asking me for 'proof' - because me bringing anything to you will be totally futile.


This is clear in the fact that the following thread is classed as an important 'Sticky' thread - by the moderator/s themselves - making it permanently stick to the top of the forum, despite it disgracefully misinterpreting Allah's Words (verse 4:34), quoting many such hadith, AND ending the article with a quote from the very book we have been discussing in this thread - 'Major Sins' - which reflects the misogynistic attitudes exhibited by the husband of the user 'Sweet Pea' :


"...The woman must also know that she is like a slave to her husband..."


- http://www.islamicboard.com/marriage...eous-wife.html
 

 
wsalam
 
Reply

AceOfHearts
03-19-2006, 12:11 AM
:sl:

As Ameen's post has shown, those who are responsible for stickying that thread ie. the mod/s, clearly already have the mind and attitude towards woman that we abhore and that which the "proof" that could be braught forward teaches.

Therefore I agree, whatever hadeeths that could be brought in here, you would somehow find some sort of a 'spin' to put on it and ice it over because your mindset is pre-set.


Peace.
Reply

Wahid
03-19-2006, 01:57 AM
It is said Imam Bukhari collected over 300,000 hadiths and he himself memorized 200,000 of which some were unreliable. He was born at a time when Hadith was being forged either to please rulers or kings or to corrupt the religion of Islam... So it was a great task for him to sift the forged hadiths from the authentic ones. He laboured day and night and although he had memorised such a large number he only chose approximately 7,275 with repetition and about 2,230 without repetition of which there is no doubt about their authenticity...Many religious scholars of Islam tried to find fault in the great remarkable collection, Sahih Al-Bukhari, but without success. It is for this reason, they unanimously agreed that the most authentic book after the Book of Allah is Sahih Al-Bukhari.

'Sahih Al-Bukhari' Arabic-English translated by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, publishers Darussalam, Vol. 1, pp 18/19.
salam companion

this says it all, it ironic u choose it to support ur argument while its exacly the opposite, u assume that he might have made a mistake while all the scholers since then havent found any mistakes in the hadiths that are sahih... so its ur whips and conjucture against thousands of scholers throught the past centuries

and bro Ansar has addressed and refuted all ur past posts point by point while u or Ameen didnt address any of the refutations, please address them if ur gona have any crediblity in this argument
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-19-2006, 04:07 AM
:sl: Companion,
Originally Posted by Companion
I stand by my position that just because a hadith is in Bukhari, it does not gurantee it to be the Prophet's nerration.
And your position is weightless since you have not studied the sciences of hadith and you are completely ignorant of insnad system and the meticulous procedure which scholars go through in order to verify the authenticity of the hadith. On what basis do I make this seemingly unjust accusation against you? On a comment that you made concerning the typical number of narrators in a hadith in Bukhari, which I will respond to now, inshaa'Allah.
Originally Posted by Companion
:sl:
The problem is, a chain does not just consist of A, B and C [that would make it pretty reliable!]. A typical Bukhari hadith has roughly 20 to 30 nerrators in its chain, I got this info from somebody who has studied hadiths for years under guidance.
SubhanAllah brother, this has surpassed blatant ignorance. Even someone who knows nothing about Islam can pick up an arabic copy of Sahih Bukhari and count the names and they will find that the typical length of a chain is 5 to 6 narrators. And how can it be otherwise when Bukhari came only 5 generations after the Prophet Muhammad pbuh?! People don't narrate from their contemporaries, they narrate from people who are either from the previous generation, or from two generations before them. I'll give you the example of what is known as the GOLDEN chain, which is considered to be the most authentic chain of transmission. This occurs in Sahih Bukhari when Imam Bukhari narrates from Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal from Imam Shafi'i from Imam Malik from Imam Nafi' from Abdullah ibn Umar rd from the Prophet Muhammad saws himself. This chain of transmission includes 5 people between Imam Bukhari and the Prophet saws; 5 people who are renowned leaders of the Ummah in hadith, such that this chain of transmission is considered to be the most authentic chain.

As for what you have heard from someone who supposedly studied years under guidance, frankly I coudn't care less about the hearsay and rumours upon which hadith rejectors construct their conjecture.

Verify this for your self.
In this case you should have said "falsify this for your self" - which I have just done. Hadith scholars scrutinise every chain of transmission for a hadith before passing judgement on its authenticity.

This is why one cannot say everything in Bukhari or any hadith book written is the infallible truth. Is it not possible he may have included something that is a lie during his process of filtering the forged from the authentic? Is he incapable of making mistakes? Only Allah is infallible.
Realize that we are not just talking about Bukhari here. Bukhari's efforts were part of the fourth stage in the development of hadith compilations. His efforts were built upon the efforts of thousands hadith scholars before him and his efforts have been verified by millions of hadith scholars after him.

You wanted proof, I am giving you them. Here is a hadith I find difficult to believe:
I know I have been very critical earlier in this post, but in this regard I must congratulate you. You, unlike Ameen, actually brought forward an example of a hadith, which is something that I and other members have been repeatedly asking Ameen to do (although you still did not bring a hadith about women, despite the fact that that is the topic of this thread!).

Now that you have an example, alhamdulilah, we can discuss it and clarify the confusion.

Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 188:

Narrated ‘Amru bin Maimun: "During the pre-lslamic period of ignorance I saw a she-monkey surrounded by a number of monkeys. They were all stoning it, because it had committed illegal sexual intercourse. I too, stoned it along with them."
The Hadith Regarding the Stoning of the She-Monkey

This hadith was already inquired about on the forum and we pointed out that it is not a statement of the Prophet pbuh; 'Amru bin Maimun, from the tabi'in, is merely stating his perception of an incident in the pre-islamic era. First, let us examine a more detailed description of this incident in an alternative narration. In a narration related by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, 'Amr bin Maimun gives more detail on what he saw before the monkeys began to throw stones:
I was in Yemen tending the sheep of my people up upon an elevation. A male monkey came with a female and laid his head on her hand. Then a smaller monkey came and beckoned towards her, so she gently slipped her hand out from under the cheek of the first monkey and followed him. He mated with her while I looked on. Then she returned and gently tried to slip her hand back under the cheek of the first monkey, but he woke up suddenly, smelled her, and cried out. Then the monkeys gathered round and he began screaming while pointing towards her with his hand (Fath al-Bârî 7/184)
Now let us summarize what this hadith states. It describes an incident and 'Amr bin Maimun's perception of that incident.
1- 'Amr bin Maimun saw some monkeys in the pre-islamic period
2- 'Amr bin Maimun saw a female monkey leave her male 'partner' and mate with another monkey
3- 'Amr bin Maimun saw the other monkeys gather around and throw stones at that monkey
4- 'Amr bin Maimun inferred that they were stoning it because it had violated its relationship with its male partner

Shaykh Ibn Qutaiba explains this narration very well:
They said: You narrated that some monkeys stoned a she-monkey for fornication. If the monkeys stoned her while she is married, the hadith would be funnier. According to this example, you cannot be sure for perhaps monkeys implement many rulings of the Torah! Or probably they embrace Judaism! So, if the monkeys are Jews, then perhaps the pigs are Christians!
Abu Muhammad ['Abdullah Ibn Qutaiba, d. 276 A.H.] said: In response to this sneer we state that the narrative of monkeys is neither on authority of Allah's Messneger (peace be upon him) nor any of his Companions; it is merely something mentioned by 'Amr Ibn Maimon. Muhammad Ibn Khalid Ibn Khadash told me that Muslim Ibn Qutaiba said on authority of Hashim on authority of Hasin on authority of 'Amr Ibn Maimon that he said, "A she-monkey had committed fornication during Jahiliyyah, so the monkeys stoned her and I stoned her with them".

Abu Muhammad said: He could have seen the monkeys stoning a she-monkey, so he imagined that they were stoning her because she commited fornication, this cannot be known except by supposition because monkeys do not express themselves and the one who sees them gathering cannot tell whether they fornicate or not. This is a supposition. Perhaps, the old man knew she had fornicated for some reason we do not know for monkeys are the most fornicating animals. Arabs refer to them as examples of (exaggerated) fornication and say: "fornicating more than a monkey". Unless fornication is common among them, they would not be used as an example. There is none closer to man in marriage and jealousy than them. The animals get hostile with one another, jump over and punish one another. Some bite, some scratch, some break and some smash. Monkeys stone with their hands whom Allah created as man stones. If they stoned one another for a cause rather than fornication and the old man thought it is fornication, it would not be far. If the old man knew about fornication by some evidence and that stoning was for it, it would not be far either because - as I have informed you - they are the most jealous among animals and the closest to man regarding understanding. (Ta'wil Mukhtalaf Al-Hadith, pp. 255-256, emphasis added)
So the scholars of IslamToday.com rightly point out:
These are not hadîth from the Prophet (peace be upon him). They are just some behaviors `Amr b. Maymûn witnessed being exhibited by some animals. It is merely his interpretation that the animals were stoning one another as a punishment for unlawful sexual intercourse. There is no way that he could have known their true motives.
And Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani writes in his commentary on this hadith:
It is not necessary from an event resembling unlawful sexual intercourse and stoning that it was really a case of unlawful sexual intercourse and a prescribed punishment. He merely described it the way he did since it resembled these things. It does not mean that legal accountability was being applied to animals. (Fath al-Bârî 7/185)
Having analysed this narration, we can now ask, is there anything in this narration that is unreasonable? The hadith describes an incident and 'Amr bin Maimun's perception of that incident. Let us examine whether or not the incident is plausible.

Do Monkeys behave in the manner narrated?
If you doubt the event narrated in the hadith because you think monkeys don't throw stones at eachother, then let me answer you with a quote from Dr. Otto Adang PhD (which took me only a few seconds to find):
Young chimpanzees in the Arnhem Zoo chimpanzee colony are frequently observed throwing sticks and stones at adult groupmembers, slapping or punching them. (SOURCE, emphasis added)
I find the following quote from a reference site on chimpanzees especially relevant:
Chimpanzees, like nearly all social animals, may act out disputes with threatening gestures or sounds. This behavior prevents direct combat and possible injury. Males, and occasionally females, may "display" by charging across the ground or through the trees while swinging or dragging branches, throwing stones or sticks, and stomping about. Such displays are important to males in attaining a position of high rank (Goodall/Grzimek 475).

Conflict may occasionally arise between a male and female if the female is "unwilling to follow them in the early phase of courtship". Females are sometimes attacked violently for "reasons not clear to us" (Goodall/Grzimek 475). (SOURCE, emphasis added)
Again, this only took me a few seconds to find on the internet. If I spent more time, I'm sure I would find lots of information about how primate males are very protective over their females and will punish any male that tries to interfere in that relationship, or any female that betrays that relationship. What do you think "unwilling to follow them in the early phase of courtship" means?

How would they punish them? If the manner described above - by hitting with sticks and throwing stones. This is just common sense.

So to conclude, it is quite clear that the incident narrated in this hadith is certainly believable, given the nature of primates. It is just as plausible that based on his observations, 'Amr bin Maimun believed that the monkey was being stoned for her unlawful intercourse. Since both aspects of this hadith are plausible and likely, there is no basis to reject this narration.



Now that we've discussed this hadith, inshaa'Allah we can continue to discuss other ahadith until we have removed the doubts and clarified the narrations.

:sl: br. Ameen,
Originally Posted by Ameen-
It is overwhelmingly clear from the above posts just how uncertain / tentative / unreliable the overall process of classifying hadith REALLY is.
It is overwhelmingly clear that you have no education on the process you are passing a judgement on.

The people here, including the moderators, obviously would not at all find offensive or troubling any of the hadith I would be able to show them regarding the roles, characteristics, duties and nature of women.
SubhanAllah! You 'would be able to show' us some hadith, yet you refuse to show us any!

This is clear in the fact that the following thread is classed as an important 'Sticky' thread - by the moderator/s themselves - making it permanently stick to the top of the forum, despite it disgracefully misinterpreting Allah's Words (verse 4:34), quoting many such hadith, AND ending the article with a quote from the very book we have been discussing in this thread - 'Major Sins' - which reflects the misogynistic attitudes exhibited by the husband of the user 'Sweet Pea' :

"...The woman must also know that she is like a slave to her husband..."
This comment is off-target for many reasons.

1. We are discussing AHADITH, not the statements of scholars. If you wanted to find statements of scholars that were not very favourable to women, I'm sure you could find a good number. But if you wanted to find authentic hadith that were not favourable to women, you would not find a single one. Prove me wrong. Bring one.

2. As far as the comment from Imam Adh-Dhahabi is concerned, I still would not agree with the notion that his book is mysognistic. In his book he does not say that the woman is the 'abd (slave) of man, but rather he states that the woman is one who is under the authority (malk) of her husband. Call it a poor translation, if you will. At any rate, he devotes quite a large section of his book immediately after that to refute mysognistic views towards women. Have you forgotten the part of the book I'm referring to? Let me remined you:
Lest one should suppose that all the responsibilities are on the wife and all the rights belong to the husband, we mention that the husband is obliged to be gentle, kind, and loving to his wife. He must show forbearance and patience toward her in case she is occasionally abusive or ill-tempered. It is his duty to feed and clothe her and to provide for her needs well, within his means, according to the command of Allah Most High: Live with them on a footing of kindness and equity (4:19) and the advice of the Prophet: Consult with women. Indeed, you have some rights over your women and they have some rights over you. It is their right on you that you provide for their food and clothing generously, and your right on them is that they do not let anyone whom you dislike in the house, walking upon your floor. (Related by Ibn Majah and Tirmidhi who declared it Hasan Saheeh)

He said: "The best among you is the one who is best to his wife" (Related by Ibn Hibban) in another version it is the one who is most kind to his wife. The Prophet himself was very gentle and kind in dealing with women.

The Prophet saws also said: "If any man shows patience with his wife's bad temper, Allah will give him a reward similar to the reward of Ayyub (Job) for his patience, and if any woman shows patience with her husband's bad temper, Allah will give her a reward similar to the reward of Asiyah daughter of Muzahim, the wife of Pharoah (Cf. Qur'an 66:11)."

It is reported that a man came to 'Umar ibn Al-Khattab raa to complain about his wife's ill-temper. While he was waiting for 'Umar to come out of his house, he heard 'Umar's wife scolding him and 'Umar quietly listening to her, and not answering her back. The man turned around and started walking away, muttering to himself: "If that is the case with 'Umar, the leader of the believers, who is famous for his uprighteness and toughness, then what about poor me?!" At that moment, 'Umar came out of his house and saw the man walking away. He called him and said, "What is it you want of me, O man?" The man replied: "O leader of the believers, I came to complain to you about my wife's bad-temper and how she nags me. Then I heard your wife doing the same to you, so I turned around, muttering to myself, 'If that is the situation of the leader of the believers, then what about me?'" 'Umar replied, "O my brother, I bear with her because of her rights over me. She cooks my food, bakes my bread, washes my clothes, breast-feeds my child...and yet none of these are her duty;* and then she is a comfort to my heart and keeps me away from forbidden deeds. Consequently, I bear with her." The man said, "It is the same with me, O leader of the believers." 'Umar said: "Then, O my brother, be patient with her, indeed this life is short. (Adh-Dhahabi, Al-Kabâ'ir 194)
So at any rate, someone who reads his book will not have a negative view towards women at all.

3. As for the making of a thread sticky, I honestly never read that thread before now. The decision to make a thread sticky is a decision of an individual staff member because of some beneficial content that he/she may see in that thread. This must not be misinterpreted as a sign that Load-Islam officially endorses all content within that thread.

4. As for your baseless assertions about the attitudes of some bad Muslims, I have pointed out to you before that there is no basis for your connecting them with the hadith or books of knowledge unless it can be objectively shown that such an attitude is preached by these sources.

I encourage all brothers and sisters to educate themselves about the sciences of hadith. Please see the following links:
http://www.islamicboard.com/educatio...resources.html
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/

:w: and sorry for the delayed response
Reply

Wahid
03-19-2006, 04:21 AM
salam
wow bro nice explanations... very detialed and u take ur time to explain it point by point mashaAllah
lets see what campanion has to say about these refutations
Reply

AceOfHearts
03-19-2006, 09:28 AM
:sl: and Jazzakallah khayr for your response.

If all the hadiths in Bukharis compilation have 5 to 6 nerrators, then I would have indeed been wrong and my statement that roughly 20-30 are involed would be grossly eroneous. However I cannot retract my statement at this moment without further verification.

As for the monkey hadith, after reading your explenation, I am not convinced about the truthfulness of the scenario. But I thank you for the time you have taken to gather and post the information you have posted.
Reply

Mohsin
03-19-2006, 12:11 PM
Originally Posted by Companion
:sl: and Jazzakallah khayr for your response.

If all the hadiths in Bukharis compilation have 5 to 6 nerrators, then I would have indeed been wrong and my statement that roughly 20-30 are involed would be grossly eroneous. However I cannot retract my statement at this moment without further verification.

As for the monkey hadith, after reading your explenation, I am not convinced about the truthfulness of the scenario. But I thank you for the time you have taken to gather and post the information you have posted.

Bro why is this so hard to believe. Read Surah Fil of the Qur'an, it stalks about birds stoning the enemies trying to take over Kabah shareef, if that can happen why can't this happen. What about the links Br. Ansar provided, showing this is actually how monekys behave, what has left you not convinced exactly
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-20-2006, 03:37 AM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Companion
If all the hadiths in Bukharis compilation have 5 to 6 nerrators, then I would have indeed been wrong and my statement that roughly 20-30 are involed would be grossly eroneous. However I cannot retract my statement at this moment without further verification.
No problem, just find any copy of Sahih Bukhari with the arabic in it because it contains the chains of transmission. The ten volume translation into english by M. Muhsin Khan has the arabic as well. Then just count up the narrators in the chain yourself.
As for the monkey hadith, after reading your explenation, I am not convinced about the truthfulness of the scenario.
Dear brother, you are the one who said that you find it impossible to accept this hadith. Therefore you need to explain what is problematic in this narration that makes it impossible to accept.

Having recieved some more information on this narration, I have gone back to my post and explained the narration a little more clearly, and broken my explanation up into points. Please check my previous post once again to see my updated comments on the narration, and then get back to me, inshaa'Allah.

:w:
Reply

sargon
03-20-2006, 10:24 AM
I think education is a big issue because I asked my Muslim brother about the "More women in hell" hadith and he said "Because women are *bad*"

This attitude is prevelant amongst many other Muslims as well, something needs to be done :hiding:

The information I receive from this website, thanks to a few dedicated individuals, is so much better than the actual people I ask. What about the millions of people that don'teven have the internet and just listen to their local authorities that preach Islam mixed in with their cultures?
Salaamz
Reply

AceOfHearts
03-20-2006, 09:33 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
:sl:

No problem, just find any copy of Sahih Bukhari with the arabic in it because it contains the chains of transmission. The ten volume translation into english by M. Muhsin Khan has the arabic as well. Then just count up the narrators in the chain yourself.

Dear brother, you are the one who said that you find it impossible to accept this hadith. Therefore you need to explain what is problematic in this narration that makes it impossible to accept.

Having recieved some more information on this narration, I have gone back to my post and explained the narration a little more clearly, and broken my explanation up into points. Please check my previous post once again to see my updated comments on the narration, and then get back to me, inshaa'Allah.

:w:

I would just like to say it was unwise of me to pick on this hadeeth. If think about it, this hadeeth poses no problem. That is because the validy of the nerration itself ie. somebody nerrating this hadith at the very beginning of the chain does not need to be questionned, ultimately because it is not from the Prophet himself.

Let me explain, the actual saying maybe from somebody. BUT the storyline does not have to be true. The hadeeth (report of such a thing being said) may well be true, NOT in the sense that monkeys really did stone a criminal monkey, but in the sense that it WAS nerrated by somebody. Whether that somebody was making the story up or not comes as a different issue all together.

In the light of all the above, I personally think it serves little meaningful purpose in trying to proove that such a scenario posed in the hadith is possible. In short, in order for somebody who wishes to proove that this hadith is true, he does not need to proove that the scenario posed is true.

This particular hadith in Bukhari merely tells the reader that somebody had said that hadith, the nerrator may well have been telling a joke or some rumour he had heard, the possibilities are endless. Indeed, surely Imam Bukhari himself was aware of the mind-boggling content of the hadith, however he still recorded it. I believe he used the above logic. I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

Peace to you.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-20-2006, 10:45 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Companion
I hope you understand what I am trying to say.
I do, but I'm not sure how it's related to the focus of the discussion. Having clarified the narration, it is quite clear that there is nothing unreasonable or unbelievable about it. Therefore, the content of the hadith does not provide one with a sound basis to reject the narration, as you had originally suggested. If someone desired to reject this hadith, they would have to point out a flaw in the chain of transmission which has been overlooked by all the hadith scholars for centuries. Needless to say, this has never been done.

Perhaps we could move on to the next narration you would like clarified or that you find problematic?

:w:
Reply

AceOfHearts
03-21-2006, 01:10 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
:sl:

I do, but I'm not sure how it's related to the focus of the discussion. Having clarified the narration, it is quite clear that there is nothing unreasonable or unbelievable about it. Therefore, the content of the hadith does not provide one with a sound basis to reject the narration, as you had originally suggested. If someone desired to reject this hadith, they would have to point out a flaw in the chain of transmission which has been overlooked by all the hadith scholars for centuries. Needless to say, this has never been done.

Perhaps we could move on to the next narration you would like clarified or that you find problematic?

:w:
That hadeeth I quoted is no longer problamatic, and it is so because of what I said in the above post.
I certainly do not believe the 'explenation' you have given.

I will not be posting any hadith here due to the reasons I have highlighted earlier and which Ameen has also pointed out.

Thanks for pointing it out that the Muhsin Khans set has the chains in arabic.
I have briefly looked at a few chains , the nominal number of nerrators seem to be about 5.

Peace.
Reply

seek.learn
03-21-2006, 02:38 AM
Salaam o alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

Just had a prayer coming...
May Allah guide us and show us the truth, and forgive us our faults. Aameen.

Alaikum Salaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-21-2006, 03:27 AM
Originally Posted by Companion
That hadeeth I quoted is no longer problamatic, and it is so because of what I said in the above post.
I certainly do not believe the 'explenation' you have given.
What's there not to believe? Can you point out a flaw in my explanation?

So I take it your view is that the hadith is authentic but 'Amr bin Maimun was making the story up or joking? On what basis do you make this conclusion? What is impossible about this story that forces you to conclude that it is fabricated?

I will not be posting any hadith here due to the reasons I have highlighted earlier and which Ameen has also pointed out.
That is truly unfortunate and it seems like an obvious cop-out from a debate. But do you really think that you and Ameen will be allowed to continue your misguided campaign slandering hadith as misogynystic if you refuse to bring forward examples? Of course not. You must provide evidence to back up your claims. If you really think that there are authentic hadith that have a negative view towards women, then why are you afraid to bring them forward and discuss them?

The truth of the matter is that hadith-rejectors have no basis upon which to reject authentic hadith. They claim the authentic hadith contradict the Qur'an and are against women, yet they fail to substantiate their claims with evidence. Their arguments are constructed upon whims and blatant ignorance of the sciences of hadith (as this thread shows). Yet even after all this, they have the audacity to pass judgement on a subject they are ignorant of and reject the authentically preserved teachings of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

:w:
Reply

abdullahi
03-27-2006, 11:16 AM
:sl:
i just came across this thread today and i must say, alhamdullillah! great job brother ansar.

:w:
Reply

Umar001
11-29-2006, 03:28 AM
Takbeer

Allahu Akbar

Takbeer

Allahu Akbar

Oh yes.

Just thought I'd up this for this is a beautiful thread! Explains the monkey hadeeth amazingly which is a hadeeth I never understood, till today.

Takbeer

Allahu Akbar

Takbeer

Allahu Akbar
Reply

aminn
05-18-2009, 05:05 PM
Allahu Akber....Randomly found this site. Its almost 3 o'clock at night here yet my sleep didn't stop me reading all the 7 pages of this thread....Subhaanallah. may Allah guide us all to the straight path and reward best place in Jannah to all who are striving in His cause. Aaameen.
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