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smile
03-09-2006, 07:44 PM
Hello

I can only speak a little turkish Bcoz my mother is Turkish.
Reply

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abdul Majid
03-09-2006, 07:48 PM
yea im a lil turkish on one side, my greatgrandfather was the sultan of turkey, and the last caliph of ISLAM, lol, true story
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Pinkie
03-09-2006, 09:24 PM
Merhaba! Türkçe biliyormusun? I'm trying to learn:coolsis:.
Reply

abdul Majid
03-09-2006, 09:29 PM
I Cant Speak It At All Tho.lol
Reply

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mrmercan
03-09-2006, 10:15 PM
i am from Turkey..e haliyle Türkçe de biliyorum...
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lyalyapo
03-10-2006, 07:13 AM
nasilsiniz arkadashlar :)
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cihad
03-15-2006, 12:57 PM
ben biraz turche conisiour

I can only speak a little
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smile
03-15-2006, 01:01 PM
[S]I know that
you are my sister[/S]
Reply

smile
03-15-2006, 01:02 PM
Iyi

I am fine sister lyalyapo
Reply

abdil han
03-18-2006, 10:51 PM
Originally Posted by abdul Majid
yea im a lil turkish on one side, my greatgrandfather was the sultan of turkey, and the last caliph of ISLAM, lol, true story
assalamu alaykum bro,
i am turk n worry about your great grand father,could you tell who is he?
and your family tree??

take care n stay in health insaAllah..

selam olsun herkese,e tabiki türk kardeslerime...
Reply

Pinkie
03-19-2006, 12:38 AM
Originally Posted by lyalyapo
nasilsiniz arkadashlar :)
Iyiyim, sen nasilsin??
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abdul Majid
03-19-2006, 01:57 AM
Originally Posted by abdil han
assalamu alaykum bro,
i am turk n worry about your great grand father,could you tell who is he?
and your family tree??

take care n stay in health insaAllah..

selam olsun herkese,e tabiki türk kardeslerime...

waalakum asalam brotha...

yea hes sultan abdul majid, from istambul....and he was the last caliph of islam....hes my fathers grampa...
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abdil han
03-19-2006, 08:08 AM
salamalaykum dear bro,
may i ask where do you live now n more details about your family?
i m interested in our ancestors n wanna know about them,

take care bro

wassalam
Reply

alitheislamian
03-19-2006, 08:15 AM
Originally Posted by smile
Hello

I can only speak a little turkish Bcoz my mother is Turkish.
My mother's mother (my grand mother) was from azarbaijan (iran) therefore my mother can speak turkish. but i think its dialect is totally change from wat is spoken in turkey.
Propably i dont know.:brother:
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abdul Majid
03-19-2006, 08:19 AM
Originally Posted by abdil han
salamalaykum dear bro,
may i ask where do you live now n more details about your family?
i m interested in our ancestors n wanna know about them,

take care bro

wassalam


waalakum asalam brother,

well im in the usa, and the family basically is all over the place and the world...i found out about the sultan when i was young, but as you know the government took over, and the caliphate was put to an end..

maybe ill go one day and claim a palace...lol....no but i cant becuz the government took them..
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abdil han
03-22-2006, 08:30 PM
Originally Posted by alitheislamian
My mother's mother (my grand mother) was from azarbaijan (iran) therefore my mother can speak turkish. but i think its dialect is totally change from wat is spoken in turkey.
Propably i dont know.:brother:
salamalaykum bro,,
as you said the dialect is different in azeri turks from us,but we can understand eachother very well:happy:
take care bro
wassalam
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abdul Majid
03-22-2006, 08:33 PM
Abdil Are You In Turkry Now??
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abdil han
03-22-2006, 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by abdul Majid
waalakum asalam brother,

well im in the usa, and the family basically is all over the place and the world...i found out about the sultan when i was young, but as you know the government took over, and the caliphate was put to an end..

maybe ill go one day and claim a palace...lol....no but i cant becuz the government took them..
salamalaykum bro,
tahnks for your reply,
i m worry that you know Osman Ertugrul?he is from the family also n lives in usa too,,
i know about the abolish of caliphate,,a big sorrow for me,
anyway take care bro,
wassalam
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abdil han
03-22-2006, 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by abdul Majid
Abdil Are You In Turkry Now??
yes bro,i was born in here n living here ,,
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abdul Majid
03-22-2006, 08:46 PM
How Is It Brother??
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abdil han
03-23-2006, 06:15 AM
Originally Posted by abdul Majid
How Is It Brother??
if u are asking the life here,alhamdulillah not bad but some rules are extremely unlogical n make trouble,such as girls can not cover their heads in schools,and in public biuldings,and these makes us very sad,,,:(
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Guli7
03-27-2006, 04:29 AM
yes I am turkish. Merhaba herkeze!

My relatives are all split up all over Europe including Turkey and Yugoslavia and we talk with a different kind of dialect. I have trouble speaking to people from Turkey but I am better at writing it.
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Pinkie
03-29-2006, 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by Guli7
yes I am turkish. Merhaba herkeze!

My relatives are all split up all over Europe including Turkey and Yugoslavia and we talk with a different kind of dialect. I have trouble speaking to people from Turkey but I am better at writing it.
Masallah Sis. You have family all over :)
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Guli7
03-29-2006, 10:41 PM
Originally Posted by Pinkie
Masallah Sis. You have family all over :)
yes but is is frustrating sometimes. I see them every few years and we aren't that close. I am used to the isolated lifestyle here in America.
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Guli7
03-29-2006, 10:43 PM
but cok sukur I have everything here in America. I have everything going for me. My parents worked and are putting me through college. I will try to find a job. I can't complain.
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Genius
03-29-2006, 10:47 PM
Originally Posted by abdul Majid
yea im a lil turkish on one side, my greatgrandfather was the sultan of turkey, and the last caliph of ISLAM, lol, true story
Haha no way...you can't say something that amazing and not explain....edited* wow you should be our Caliph bro. Get up and reclaim your throne, I'll help you.
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dincugur
03-30-2006, 04:45 PM
Wow, a guy who could be the caliph is among us!

I am also Turkish but no such fascinating lineage. My parents come from two small villages in NW Turkey. But we are originally from Europe, what is today the north of Bulgaria.
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dincugur
03-30-2006, 05:01 PM
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abdul Majid
03-30-2006, 09:02 PM
Originally Posted by Genius
Haha no way...you can't say something that amazing and not explain....edited* wow you should be our Caliph bro. Get up and reclaim your throne, I'll help you.
salam alakum

:brother: lolololol, yea bro, but you know how the government took over in turkey, and about the fall of the caliph.... one day inshallah itll be back...

but yea if you google Sultan Abdul Majid, that is my fathers grampa....lol
i find it interesting im always looking it up and stuff, lol....

all praise to ALLAH(swt)..

:w:
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Khattab
04-01-2006, 12:32 AM
Amazing:)
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Lina
04-12-2006, 11:35 PM
:sl:

Turkey; now that's a huge identity crisis.

That country would do about anything to 'completely' join the EU.

:w:
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extinction
04-12-2006, 11:39 PM
Originally Posted by Lina
:sl:

Turkey; now that's a huge identity crisis.

That country would do about anything to 'completely' join the EU.

:w:
for real!! they want to be so european its sickening
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Lina
04-12-2006, 11:42 PM
Originally Posted by hafizmo
for real!! they want to be so european its sickening

:sl:


It's called: ''support payments''

:w:
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smile
04-16-2006, 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by Lina
:sl:

Turkey; now that's a huge identity crisis.

That country would do about anything to 'completely' join the EU.

:w:

It shouldn't change
pathetic ppl
:rant: :rant:
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abdil han
04-16-2006, 05:55 PM
salam aleykum ,
dear bros n sis,
u can not understand the real situation in here turkiye,
i also dont wanna be a part of europe,but as u know ,here we have some problems on practising hicab n some kinda things,and if we be a member,we could solve this problem i think(inşaAllah),,

but actually,we must not be a member,we are muslim n eu is a christian community,even they dont accept this..

may Allah bless u all,,

selam ve dua ile kalın kardeşlerim,
vesselam
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ayka
04-24-2006, 06:09 AM
Merhabalar ,ben de turkce biliyorum hem de cok iyi :) Aranizda turk olan var mi acaba?
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extinction
04-24-2006, 06:12 AM
i know nasal sanaz or something isminne erm..sen chok hizmet ediyorsen and the most common word i heard tamaam
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abdil han
04-25-2006, 07:14 PM
Originally Posted by ayka
Merhabalar ,ben de turkce biliyorum hem de cok iyi :) Aranizda turk olan var mi acaba?
s.a.
merhaba kardeşim,
ben türküm,inşaAllah iyisindir,
sen nerde yaşıyorsun?

sağlıcakla kalasın,
selametle
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Great Ottoman
05-03-2006, 12:27 PM
Olay be Türkün olmadığı yer yok ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Gulyarasi
09-15-2006, 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by Great Ottoman
Olay be Türkün olmadığı yer yok ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

:giggling: kesinlikle!!!
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AHMED_GUREY
09-16-2006, 12:25 AM
Salaam Benim arkadaÞlar

nasil ol Turkiye?

insha-allah bir gün ben istemek ziyaret the blue mosque ve benim müslüman erkekkardeÞler ve kizkardeÞler

senin somali erkek kardeÞ dIle sIz o saÐdiÇ

wa alaikum salaam
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Skillganon
09-21-2006, 08:38 PM
WOOOAAAHHH we got some turkish muslims here.
Indeed their is hope for constantipole. Inshallah.
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~Stranger~
09-21-2006, 10:00 PM
yea hes sultan abdul majid, from istambul....and he was the last caliph of islam
:sl:
i thought the last Ottoman sultan was Abdul Hameed, is this the same sultan u r talking about??

:w:
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Gulyarasi
09-21-2006, 11:30 PM
Originally Posted by ayka
Merhabalar ,ben de turkce biliyorum hem de cok iyi :) Aranizda turk olan var mi acaba?
Mrb, türk müsünüz yoksa türkçeyi mi biliyorsunuz ? anlayamadım da :?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-22-2006, 01:02 AM
I wanna visit Turkey =D lol
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Tikky
09-29-2006, 11:00 PM
selam merhaba

türkçe bilen varmı benle irtibata geçerse sevinirim :)
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-30-2006, 12:03 AM
too bad i dont understand that lol.
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north_malaysian
10-16-2006, 04:15 AM
Selam

Can you translate everytime you write in Turkish?:okay:
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-16-2006, 04:40 AM
yeaa thatd be nice..unless its for turkish bro's n sis's only :D
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Skillganon
10-16-2006, 05:33 PM
Any turkish out here? I wan't to see your opinion on "Turkey and E.U" in the "Word affair" section.
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nisa'a nur
11-01-2006, 03:48 PM
esselamualeykum..

Türkiye'de ve tüm Dünya ülkelerinde bulunan Türk kardeşlerime selamlar..

:)
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Saifadin_Qutuz
11-01-2006, 07:15 PM
haydi bakalum :lol:
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Grace Seeker
11-04-2006, 07:19 PM
Turkce bilmiyorum.
But I am trying to learn. My daughter is Turkish and we will be visiting her when she graduates from the University of Istanbul next summer. I want to be able to converse with the rest of her family when I meet them.
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abdil han
11-13-2006, 09:28 AM
Originally Posted by Tikky
selam merhaba

türkçe bilen varmı benle irtibata geçerse sevinirim :)
a.selam

ben varım,,türküm:)

selametle...
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abdil han
11-13-2006, 09:31 AM
Originally Posted by nisa'a nur
esselamualeykum..

Türkiye'de ve tüm Dünya ülkelerinde bulunan Türk kardeşlerime selamlar..

:)
aleyküm selam kardeşim,

sağolasın,sağlıcakla kalasın inşaAllah:)
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Grace Seeker
11-25-2006, 02:44 AM
OK. I am trying to learn Turkish, but I don't know it well enough yet to write in it here. So, please forgive me. But I just had to share this story.

Yesterday I was watching some TV, and I said to my wife that I thought that the land looked like Turkey. I've never been to Turkey before, but it made me think of eastern Turkey, and it turns out I was right. Then they started talking to a family, and had an interpretor talking over the top transalating everything into English. But for one moment she quit, and in the background I heard the father say to his daughter "Yavas, yavas" and I knew it meant slowly. It was only one word, but I was sooooooo excited to have actually understood even that little bit of real Turkish spoken in a natural setting. A little bit later on I picked up a few more words. But it was "Yavas" that got me so excited. When I understood it, I knew I was actually making progress, even if yavas. :)
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
11-25-2006, 02:46 AM
lol MashAllah. Dont u just love that feeling :) I get it too, but for Arabic lol.
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AHMED_GUREY
11-26-2006, 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by AHMED_GUREY
Salaam Benim arkadaÞlar

nasil ol Turkiye?

insha-allah bir gün ben istemek ziyaret the blue mosque ve benim müslüman erkekkardeÞler ve kizkardeÞler

senin somali erkek kardeÞ dIle sIz o saÐdiÇ

wa alaikum salaam
i lost the site of that nice Turkish/English dictionary i used for this post now looking back at it i have no idea what i said;D
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abdil han
11-29-2006, 09:44 PM
Originally Posted by AHMED_GUREY
i lost the site of that nice Turkish/English dictionary i used for this post now looking back at it i have no idea what i said;D
u did well brother,,no worry,

and inshaAllah one day you can come to istanbul to see bluemosque and more here:)

take care n stay in health,

wassalam
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Kittygyal
11-29-2006, 09:46 PM
Assalmualikum warhmathullahi warbarakathuhu

humm gerberrish :confused:

do me a favour remember me in your Du3'ah, shukran!

Walikumassalam warhmathullahi warbarakathuhu
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abdil han
11-29-2006, 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by Kittygyal
Assalmualikum warhmathullahi warbarakathuhu

humm gerberrish :confused:

do me a favour remember me in your Du3'ah, shukran!

Walikumassalam warhmathullahi warbarakathuhu

wa aleyke sister,

if u are saying to me ,with pleasure...if not,,nothing to say:-\

and the same please,,remember me too in ur dua's,,

wassalam aleikum
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Grace Seeker
11-30-2006, 12:15 AM
Wondering if someone might be able to help me here. I have a friend in Turkey who recently lost his mother. I wanted to send him a note from me and my wife, but I don't really speak Turkish, and I want to be sure that what I write means what I want it to say.

Could someone (using the proper Turkish characters: c ç g ğ ı i o ö s ş u ü ) tell me how to say:



"No matter the age of the parent, it is always difficult to lose them."

"Our hearts go out to you on the loss of your beloved mother."

"Even as you grieve, may you take comfort from the knowledge that she lives with God."

"And may God be with you as well."

"Peace,"




Also, please correct me, if these are not things that would be appropriate say to a pious Muslim. Thanks!!
Reply

abdil han
11-30-2006, 07:04 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Wondering if someone might be able to help me here. I have a friend in Turkey who recently lost his mother. I wanted to send him a note from me and my wife, but I don't really speak Turkish, and I want to be sure that what I write means what I want it to say.

Could someone (using the proper Turkish characters: c ç g ğ ı i o ö s ş u ü ) tell me how to say:



"No matter the age of the parent, it is always difficult to lose them."

"Our hearts go out to you on the loss of your beloved mother."

"Even as you grieve, may you take comfort from the knowledge that she lives with God."

"And may God be with you as well."

"Peace,"




Also, please correct me, if these are not things that would be appropriate say to a pious Muslim. Thanks!!
peace,

first of all ,i m sorry for your friend,,may Allah help them inshaAllah,,,

'''hangi yaşta olursa olsun,ailemizden birin kaybetmek herzaman bize acı vermiştir..
yüreklerimiz seninledir,acını paylaşıyoruz.

hepimiz birgün öleceğiz ve Rabbimize kavuşacağız,
Allah ona rahmet etsin,günahlarını bağışlasın ve cennetine koysun inşaAllah,sizlerede sabırlar versin,,

Allah a emanet olun...'''

friend i ve changed it little,,
you can send this essage now...

take care n stay in health
wassalam
Reply

abdil han
11-30-2006, 07:06 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Wondering if someone might be able to help me here. I have a friend in Turkey who recently lost his mother. I wanted to send him a note from me and my wife, but I don't really speak Turkish, and I want to be sure that what I write means what I want it to say.


"No matter the age of the parent, it is always difficult to lose them."

"Our hearts go out to you on the loss of your beloved mother."

"Even as you grieve, may you take comfort from the knowledge that she lives with God."

"And may God be with you as well."

"Peace,"


Also, please correct me, if these are not things that would be appropriate say to a pious Muslim. Thanks!!

peace,

first of all ,i m sorry for your friend,,may Allah help them inshaAllah,,,
your message is;

'''hangi yaşta olursa olsun,ailemizden birin kaybetmek herzaman bize acı vermiştir..
yüreklerimiz seninledir,acını paylaşıyoruz.

hepimiz birgün öleceğiz ve Rabbimize kavuşacağız,
Allah ona rahmet etsin,günahlarını bağışlasın ve cennetine koysun inşaAllah,sizlerede sabırlar versin,,

Allah a emanet olun...'''


friend i ve changed it little,,
you can send this message now...

take care n stay in health
wassalam
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Grace Seeker
11-30-2006, 08:03 AM
Sizi bana bir büyük yardım. Cok çok teşekkür ederim.
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abdil han
11-30-2006, 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Sizi bana bir büyük yardım. Cok çok teşekkür ederim.
rica ederim,hiç önemli değil..

(you are welcome)
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Grace Seeker
11-30-2006, 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by abdil han
rica ederim,
(you are welcome)
or "de nada" in the language I know.

hiç önemli değil..
Well, it was to me. (a phrase I obviously don't know how to say in Turkish.)
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dostpost
11-30-2006, 07:49 PM
Turk kardeslerim heepinize ozel mesaj attim llutfen kontrol ediniz. Dunyadaki tek muslumanların kendleri oldugunu sanan bir takim insanlara karsi en azindan bu forumda lobimizi olusturaliim. islami koruyan, kabeyi koruyan, islami yayan atalarimizi onlara anlatalim. osmanli devleti olmasayditum arab milletinin keedi koopek gibi birbirini yiycegini hepimiz biliyoruz, bakiniz: irak. herifler birbirine dustu. suudi arabisstan kralli denen serfsiz, acimadan osmanli kalesini yikti. sanki bu zamana kadar kabeyi , kralin poposunmda donu olmayan dedesi korudu inglizlerden. atalarimiz olmasa hepsi birer hicctiler.

iste bunun icin artik birseylerin zamani geldi gibi dusunuyorum. bu meesaji babylon tarzi prgramlarla cevirmesinler diye bazi yerleerde kasten yazim hatalari yaptim. size garip gelmesin.

ALLAH TURKU KORUSUN.
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abdil han
11-30-2006, 08:03 PM
selamün aleyküm kardeşim,

vatanımızı ,tarihimizi elbette savunacağız,bizi biz yapan değerlerdir onlar..
elimizden geldiğince doğruları yazarız burada,,

ancak bukadar sert ve düşmanca tavır almaya gerek olduğunu düşünmüyorum kardeşim,

bazıları kötü düşünüyor diye tüm arapları kötü bilmemeliyiz,en nihayetinde hepimiz müslümanız ve islamın özünde ırkçılık yoktur ve yasaklanmıştır,
kim ne yaparsa yapsın ,bu onların kabahatidir ve onları bağlar,bizim de onlar gibi olmamızı gerektirmez..

ve tanıdığım birçok arap kardeşin hakkımızda kötü hiçbir fikri yok,,

sağlıcakla kalasın
vesselam
(kısıtlı üye olduğum için özel mesaj atamadım)
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dostpost
11-30-2006, 08:59 PM
haklsin biraz abarti oldu sanirim benim ki :D
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Skillganon
11-30-2006, 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by mustklc
haklsin biraz abarti oldu sanirim benim ki :D
eerrr, how you say "where have you been?"

Actually I am asking the question to the brother's from Turkey. Where are all the Turkish sisters?
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abdil han
11-30-2006, 10:28 PM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
eerrr, how you say "where have you been?"

Actually I am asking the question to the brother's from Turkey. Where are all the Turkish sisters?
salam

''neredeydin?''
that's it brother...very easy;)

actually,i dont know where are they,i think not many turk knows this site,,

wassalamu aleykum
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Skillganon
11-30-2006, 10:46 PM
Wassalam

Turkey muselman ''neredeydin?'' ''neredeydin?'' :(

I Know turkish he" he" he!
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schoolmaster54
11-30-2006, 11:24 PM
Originally Posted by AHMED_GUREY
i lost the site of that nice Turkish/English dictionary i used for this post now looking back at it i have no idea what i said;D

http://www.seslisozluk.com/?word=a
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AHMED_GUREY
12-01-2006, 11:11 PM
Originally Posted by abdil han
u did well brother,,no worry,

and inshaAllah one day you can come to istanbul to see bluemosque and more here:)

take care n stay in health,

wassalam
:sl:

Insha-allah i will bro

"Çekoslavakyalılaştıramadıklarımızdan mısınız?"

;D come on wich language on this planet has a word coming close to that?

gotta love it respect:D

:w:

ps Schoolmaster54 thanks for the link bro :thankyou:
Reply

dostpost
12-02-2006, 08:13 AM
"Cekoslovakyalilastiramadiklarimizdan misiniz?"
means;

Are you them who we was trying to make Czechoslovakian and we got failure?

:D
Reply

schoolmaster54
12-02-2006, 10:45 AM
Originally Posted by mustklc
"Cekoslovakyalilastiramadiklarimizdan misiniz?"
means;

Are you them who we was trying to make Czechoslovakian and we got failure?

:D

Assalam!
Are you from the ones whom we weren't able to make Czechoslovakian?

Hey! I'm a Turkish muslim and I live in Ankara.
Where do you live, bro?
Wassalam!
Reply

dostpost
12-02-2006, 11:19 AM
Originally Posted by schoolmaster54
Assalam!
Are you from the ones whom we weren't able to make Czechoslovakian?

Hey! I'm a Turkish muslim and I live in Ankara.
Where do you live, bro?
Wassalam!
aleykum selam hacim, ben de ankaradayim.
KPDS den 77 aldim ama ne hikmetse duzeltemedim su ingilizceyi. pratik artsin diye sohbet odalarina takilmaktansa buraya takilalim dedik. buradaki elemanlar da lol mol diye konusuyor gene bir halt anlamiyom.:offended:
ne yapsas ki cozsek su ingilizce meselesini .:?

in english:
wesselam brother. i live in Ankara too.
i have score 77 in english exam KPDS, but my english is not very well. So i need to practice.:offended:
Reply

schoolmaster54
12-02-2006, 11:38 AM
Originally Posted by mustklc
aleykum selam hacim, ben de ankaradayim.
KPDS den 77 aldim ama ne hikmetse duzeltemedim su ingilizceyi. pratik artsin diye sohbet odalarina takilmaktansa buraya takilalim dedik. buradaki elemanlar da lol mol diye konusuyor gene bir halt anlamiyom.:offended:
ne yapsas ki cozsek su ingilizce meselesini .:?

in english:
wesselam brother. i live in Ankara too.
i have score 77 in english exam KPDS, but my english is not very well. So i need to practice.:offended:
What do you do, brother?
Where do you work?
When did you join the KPDS exam? In November?
We can meet and study English. We must read Islamic books in English and try to spread Islam by writing English articles.
The best way to improve English to read and write. You cannot learn much by speaking, dear brother.
Wassalam.
Reply

dostpost
12-02-2006, 11:54 AM
yes in november. was it a easy exam?


i am a teacher. i teach computer skills and information technologies. what is your job?

i have made many translations english to turkish , specially science essays and books. but i have problems in writing :uuh:

Turkce bisiyler yaz da Turk olduguna kanaat getirelim:? mesela tulin ile caner kimdir onu soyle :D
Reply

schoolmaster54
12-02-2006, 12:21 PM
Originally Posted by mustklc
yes in november. was it a easy exam?


i am a teacher. i teach computer skills and information technologies. what is your job?

i have made many translations english to turkish , specially science essays and books. but i have problems in writing :uuh:

Turkce bisiyler yaz da Turk olduguna kanaat getirelim:? mesela tulin ile caner kimdir onu soyle :D
I don't have enough time to waste by watching those kinds of silly programmes on TV but I heard that.

"TÜRKİYEDE 50 TRİLYON RANT GELİRİ OLAN YÜZYILIN SANAL AŞK OYUNU HERŞEY OYUN ÖZ BABASI ESKİ BİR MİT AJANI OLAN ADANALI ŞİZOFREN CANER KAREKTERİ VE ESKİ ASTSUBAY SEVGİLİSİNDEN ÇOCUK DÜŞÜRMÜŞ SAHTE KÖYLÜ KIZI ESKİŞEHİRLİ TÜLİN KAREKTERİ HERŞEY OYUN VE NUMARADAN İBARET AMAÇ TÜRK HALKINI KANDIRMAK...."

How can you waste your precious time watching those silly programmes. I teach English. I had taught English before at private school for a long time.
Wassalam!
Reply

Grace Seeker
12-02-2006, 07:20 PM
Turkce bilmiyorum, ama orgenmek isteyorum. Kizimden Turkiye, ve bu temmuzda ziyaret ediyoruz.

(How did I do? It is hard to learn, because there is no one here to teach me.)
Reply

schoolmaster54
12-02-2006, 09:32 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Turkce bilmiyorum, ama orgenmek isteyorum. Kizimden Turkiye, ve bu temmuzda ziyaret ediyoruz.

(How did I do? It is hard to learn, because there is no one here to teach me.)

Hello Dear Friend,
I live in Turkey and my native language is Turkish. I teach English in Turkey. Further more I can teach Turkish. I have taught Turkish to many foreign missions' children in Turkey. If you want, I can teach you Turkish online. You don't know Turkish. How can your daughter speak Turkish. Are you married to a Turkish guy? It must be an interesting family. If you have skype address, we can speak Turkish.

Skype: schoolmaster1954
MSN: schoolmaster1954@hotmail.com

Bye!
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
12-02-2006, 11:09 PM
Maybe I can learn some Turkish this way. Is there a thread on here for it? I'd say thats an idea :D
Reply

schoolmaster54
12-02-2006, 11:14 PM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Maybe I can learn some Turkish this way. Is there a thread on here for it? I'd say thats an idea :D

Can you start a tread for it? I can teach Turkish.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
12-02-2006, 11:17 PM
Actually we do have one :)

http://www.islamicboard.com/misc-lan...tml#post582814

Salaam Alaikum
Reply

schoolmaster54
12-02-2006, 11:32 PM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Actually we do have one :)

http://www.islamicboard.com/misc-lan...tml#post582814

Salaam Alaikum

Good. You can follow it. But I can still help you.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
12-02-2006, 11:37 PM
Yeap, Im dere.
Thanx :D
Sonra görü$ürüz
Salaam
Reply

schoolmaster54
12-02-2006, 11:39 PM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Yeap, Im dere.
Thanx :D
Sonra görü$ürüz
Salaam

dere????
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
12-02-2006, 11:41 PM
LOL ok let me fix that. "Yeap I'm there."
Im guessin u dont know slang :?
Reply

schoolmaster54
12-02-2006, 11:42 PM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
LOL ok let me fix that. "Yeap I'm there."
Im guessin u dont know slang :?
No, I never use slang language..
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
12-02-2006, 11:49 PM
Ok well, im lookin forward to learning Turkish InshAllah.
See you around :)
Salaam
Reply

schoolmaster54
12-02-2006, 11:50 PM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Ok well, im lookin forward to learning Turkish InshAllah.
See you around :)
Salaam

Fi amanillah.
Reply

Grace Seeker
12-03-2006, 01:11 AM
Originally Posted by schoolmaster54
Hello Dear Friend,
I live in Turkey and my native language is Turkish. I teach English in Turkey. Further more I can teach Turkish. I have taught Turkish to many foreign missions' children in Turkey. If you want, I can teach you Turkish online. You don't know Turkish. How can your daughter speak Turkish. Are you married to a Turkish guy? It must be an interesting family. If you have skype address, we can speak Turkish.

Skype: schoolmaster1954
MSN: schoolmaster1954@hotmail.com

Bye!
Well, I must have written it well enough for you to understand me, even if poorly. So, I'm making progress. That's good. :D

My daughter is native born Turkish. She became our daughter 4 years ago when she came to live with me and my wife for a year as an exchange student. Though she is not my biological child, I know no difference between her (or any of our other exchange student children) and our biological children or foster children. You live in my house, you call us Mom and Dad and we are. I can't/won't change that later just because you no longer live at home. Asli still calls us Mom and Dad. She graduates from University of Istanbul in July.

When I was talking to her about it earlier this year, she asked: "Are you coming?"
I teased her, "Are we going to get an invitation?"
Asli teased right back, "What do you think?"
Me: "Well, I suppose if we get an invitation we'll come."
Asli: "No, you won't."
Me (a little surprised): "We won't?"
Asli (laughing): "No. You are family. We don't send invitations to family. We know you will be there."

So, you see we are expected. And we will be there. I wouldn't miss it.

I learned just enough Turkish when Asli lived with us, that I could answer the phone and tell Asli's mother that she wasn't home, or to wait and I would get Asli. But, now I need to learn a bit more, because I want to be able to really talk with my daughter's family.

I've got a grammar book, and it is helping quite a bit. And I have about 2000 words on flashcards that I am learning. Of course, none of that will help me with slang. But more than anything, I know I need to learn to hear it, and to speak it in regular conversation. I don't have a microphone, so I've never installed skype. Maybe I will have to do that. I'll also check out the other thread.

Tesekkurlar.
Reply

schoolmaster54
12-03-2006, 06:13 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Well, I must have written it well enough for you to understand me, even if poorly. So, I'm making progress. That's good. :D

My daughter is native born Turkish. She became our daughter 4 years ago when she came to live with me and my wife for a year as an exchange student. Though she is not my biological child, I know no difference between her (or any of our other exchange student children) and our biological children or foster children. You live in my house, you call us Mom and Dad and we are. I can't/won't change that later just because you no longer live at home. Asli still calls us Mom and Dad. She graduates from University of Istanbul in July.

When I was talking to her about it earlier this year, she asked: "Are you coming?"
I teased her, "Are we going to get an invitation?"
Asli teased right back, "What do you think?"
Me: "Well, I suppose if we get an invitation we'll come."
Asli: "No, you won't."
Me (a little surprised): "We won't?"
Asli (laughing): "No. You are family. We don't send invitations to family. We know you will be there."

So, you see we are expected. And we will be there. I wouldn't miss it.

I learned just enough Turkish when Asli lived with us, that I could answer the phone and tell Asli's mother that she wasn't home, or to wait and I would get Asli. But, now I need to learn a bit more, because I want to be able to really talk with my daughter's family.

I've got a grammar book, and it is helping quite a bit. And I have about 2000 words on flashcards that I am learning. Of course, none of that will help me with slang. But more than anything, I know I need to learn to hear it, and to speak it in regular conversation. I don't have a microphone, so I've never installed skype. Maybe I will have to do that. I'll also check out the other thread.

Tesekkurlar.

Whenever you need it, I'm ready to teach you. Get a wescam and a microphone then we can practice Turkish.
Bye!
Reply

dostpost
12-03-2006, 07:30 AM
Originally Posted by schoolmaster54
I don't have enough time to waste by watching those kinds of silly programmes on TV but I heard that.


How can you waste your precious time watching those silly programmes. I teach English. I had taught English before at private school for a long time.
Wassalam!

uyarin icin tesekkur ederim ama neyi izleyip neyi izlemeyecegimi secebilecek , benim icin ne onemlidir, vaktimi neyle harcayabilirim karar verebilecek, muhakeme edebilecek kadar akil ve vicdan sahibi oldugumu saniyorum. Ayrica oradaki de sadece bir espriden ibaret idi.
Reply

schoolmaster54
12-03-2006, 07:57 AM
Originally Posted by mustklc
uyarin icin tesekkur ederim ama neyi izleyip neyi izlemeyecegimi secebilecek , benim icin ne onemlidir, vaktimi neyle harcayabilirim karar verebilecek, muhakeme edebilecek kadar akil ve vicdan sahibi oldugumu saniyorum. Ayrica oradaki de sadece bir espriden ibaret idi.

I'm sorry I was understood wrong. I can't oblige or dictate you what to watch. I have no rights like that. I only expressed my conviction and thoughts. Sure you're an adult and you can decide it. If we don't criticise here, what will we do then? This is a debate forum. We'll discuss and find the truth. Sometimes critics can be bitter. Sorry brother.

Next, I can advise you to read the following links to improve your writing skills:


http://www.rpgamer.com/editor/howto.html
http://www.geneseo.edu/~bennett/EdWrite.htm
http://www.k12albemarle.org/albemarl...Editorials.htm
http://homepages.ius.edu/dschwei2/writing/editorial.htm
http://home.pacific.net.au/~greg.hub/editorial.html
http://www.english.ccsu.edu/martin/E...%20Writing.htm
http://www.lse.ac.uk/resources/webEd...ng/Default.htm
http://projects.edtech.sandi.net/mon..._editorial.htm
http://va.essortment.com/learnnewspape_rvhj.htm
http://patterico.com/2004/04/24/1466...riting-lesson/
http://www.poynter.org/content/conte...w.asp?id=16961
http://www.nndb.com/honors/505/000079268/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulitze...torial_Writing
http://www.answers.com/topic/pulitze...torial-writing
http://www.spacetoday.org/Research/Research.html
http://www.ideasiteforbusiness.com/Andy/we.htm
http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?ne...ter_friendly=1
http://www.uil.utexas.edu/academics/...t_writing.html
Reply

dostpost
12-03-2006, 08:13 AM
Originally Posted by schoolmaster54

Next, I can advise you to read the following links to improve your writing skills:
Actually, i watch cnbc-e, specially "ghost whisperer " :D i think it is a good way to improve listening practice .

i will look the links, thanks
Reply

schoolmaster54
12-03-2006, 08:19 AM
Originally Posted by mustklc
Actually, i watch cnbc-e, specially "ghost whisperer " :D i think it is a good way to improve listening practice .

i will look the links, thanks
Are you angry with me, bro? I didn't have any bad intentions to critise you. Sorry again. :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended:

Where do you work? I mean what school?
Reply

dostpost
12-03-2006, 12:24 PM
Originally Posted by schoolmaster54
Are you angry with me, bro? I didn't have any bad intentions to critise you. Sorry again. :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended: :offended:

Where do you work? I mean what school?
clearly , i was angry with you yesterday, but now not angry as much as yesterday. :) i have just forget it, no matter.
i couldnt send you pm, did you close this option?
i work in a primary school in ankara. i can not write the name of the school here because of security and some reasons:playing:

anyway, i have opened a topic: Turkish for beginners, how do you find it? i am not professional in language science (dilbilim boyle mi yaziliyor?), so you can improve and make rich my topic. what do you think?
you can correct me in that topic and in my english, (but only in them :giggling: )

C U
Reply

schoolmaster54
12-03-2006, 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by mustklc
clearly , i was angry with you yesterday, but now not angry as much as yesterday. :) i have just forget it, no matter.
i couldnt send you pm, did you close this option?
i work in a primary school in ankara. i can not write the name of the school here because of security and some reasons:playing:

anyway, i have opened a topic: Turkish for beginners, how do you find it? i am not professional in language science (dilbilim boyle mi yaziliyor?), so you can improve and make rich my topic. what do you think?
you can correct me in that topic and in my english, (but only in them :giggling: )

C U
Are you really a teacher or an academician at a university?
Reply

dostpost
12-04-2006, 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by schoolmaster54
Are you really a teacher or an academician at a university?
is that important , who am i? totally , we all are human:D
Reply

schoolmaster54
12-04-2006, 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by mustklc
is that important , who am i? totally , we all are human:D

It is very important. I must know who you are. How can I address you if I don't know who you are? How can you come down to the primary school students with that huge knowledge? I'm sure you're teaching at university. You must be an academician or assistant professor. Am I true? Did you see my Turkish page (member page)?
Reply

dostpost
12-05-2006, 07:26 PM
Originally Posted by schoolmaster54
It is very important. I must know who you are. How can I address you if I don't know who you are? How can you come down to the primary school students with that huge knowledge? I'm sure you're teaching at university. You must be an academician or assistant professor. Am I true? Did you see my Turkish page (member page)?
hocam nerden cikardin, akademisyen oldugumu :D Asistan da degilim. akademisyen olsam forumlarda gezecek vaktim mi olur? makaleden, arastirmadan gozumu acamam.

yok simdilik sadece cocuklara ogretiyoruz. sayfanizi gormedim bu arada
Reply

schoolmaster54
12-05-2006, 08:59 PM
Originally Posted by mustklc
hocam nerden cikardin, akademisyen oldugumu :D Asistan da degilim. akademisyen olsam forumlarda gezecek vaktim mi olur? makaleden, arastirmadan gozumu acamam.

yok simdilik sadece cocuklara ogretiyoruz. sayfanizi gormedim bu arada
Will you see it?
Reply

dostpost
12-06-2006, 10:30 AM
Originally Posted by schoolmaster54
Will you see it?
did you mean profile page?
http://www.islamicboard.com/members/...action=getinfo

is this?
yes i saw it. but pm option looks closed, why?
Reply

schoolmaster54
12-06-2006, 12:52 PM
Originally Posted by mustklc
did you mean profile page?
http://www.islamicboard.com/members/...action=getinfo

is this?
yes i saw it. but pm option looks closed, why?

http://www.islamicboard.com/userpage-user9769.html

No, member page is between Files and Topics at the top.
Reply

Grace Seeker
12-06-2006, 04:42 PM
How do you say, "I would like to send flowers to my daughter for her birthday tomorrow."?

"Can you deliver them?"
Reply

abdil han
12-06-2006, 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
How do you say, "I would like to send flowers to my daughter for her birthday tomorrow."?

"Can you deliver them?"
salam

''Kızımın yarın ki doğum günü için çiçek göndermek istiyorum.
Ulaştırabilirmisin?''

thats it bro:)

wassalam
Reply

dostpost
12-06-2006, 07:21 PM
Originally Posted by schoolmaster54
http://www.islamicboard.com/userpage-user9769.html

No, member page is between Files and Topics at the top.

nice links. you must be a good teacher. inshallah everbody can learn Turkish easily.
Reply

schoolmaster54
12-06-2006, 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by mustklc
nice links. you must be a good teacher. inshallah everbody can learn Turkish easily.

I hope I will, Sir. If you help me, we can make it more interesting and visiul. You told you're a computer and information technologies teacher. Can you help me to prepare a web page on "Learning Turkish"?
Reply

dostpost
12-07-2006, 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by schoolmaster54
I hope I will, Sir. If you help me, we can make it more interesting and visiul. You told you're a computer and information technologies teacher. Can you help me to prepare a web page on "Learning Turkish"?

certainly! , i will be pleased to help you. designing and programming a new web site will be difficult and we can not find time to develop it. so you can use open source web content management systems like joomla. they are free and useful. joomla is the best, i think.
here you are some links:

http://www.mjturkiye.net/forum/Joomla-f71.html (forum for joomla , required register)
http://www.joomlaturkiye.org/ (turkish joomla users site)
http://www.joomla.org/ (official joomla site)
http://www.joomla.de/ (german joomla site, good source for joomla themas - did i say that i know a bit german also :D )
http://www.opensourcecms.com/ (OS cms list site)


some educational sites made with joomla:

http://www.cografyamiz.net/
http://www.cebirsel.com
http://www.adobeegitim.com/
http://www.matokulu.com/
http://www.cografyaokulu.net/
http://www.motoregitim.net/



i can help you . kolay gelsin :okay:
Reply

schoolmaster54
12-07-2006, 10:19 PM
Originally Posted by mustklc
certainly! , i will be pleased to help you. designing and programming a new web site will be difficult and we can not find time to develop it. so you can use open source web content management systems like joomla. they are free and useful. joomla is the best, i think.
here you are some links:

http://www.mjturkiye.net/forum/Joomla-f71.html (forum for joomla , required register)
http://www.joomlaturkiye.org/ (turkish joomla users site)
http://www.joomla.org/ (official joomla site)
http://www.joomla.de/ (german joomla site, good source for joomla themas - did i say that i know a bit german also :D )
http://www.opensourcecms.com/ (OS cms list site)


some educational sites made with joomla:

http://www.cografyamiz.net/
http://www.cebirsel.com
http://www.adobeegitim.com/
http://www.matokulu.com/
http://www.cografyaokulu.net/
http://www.motoregitim.net/



i can help you . kolay gelsin :okay:

Thank you brother. I'd like to prepare a web site which depicts Turkey and Turkish if I can have enough time. :happy: ;D :D
Reply

dostpost
12-08-2006, 03:16 PM
Turkish For Beginners Topigim nasil gidiyo hocam bakar misin? birisine "canim " kelimesini yanlis aciklamisim :D hos olmayan seyler oldu cok pisman oldum. dilbilim alaninda iyi degilim lisede ne ogrendi isem o. oradaki hatalari duzeltebilirsen iyi olur. millet yanlis ogrenmesin dilimizi.
Reply

Grace Seeker
12-13-2006, 10:47 AM
Hey, maybe some of the local Turks can help me figure out how to do this.

My daughter lives in Istanbul. I want to send her some flowers for her birthday on Monday, December 18.

I have found a few florists through the internet, but none that speak enough English to make up for my paucity in Turkish. I need a florist that
1) Can discuss details by MSN messenger, so that I can place the order,
2) Can communicate with me well enough in English for us to work out all the details (Unless one of you wants to get on MSN Messenger with me and walk me through it. :) )
3) Makes deliveries to the 34696 Bulgurlu -Üsküdar part of Istanbul, and
4) Will accept payment by credit card online or over the telephone.
Reply

schoolmaster54
12-13-2006, 04:48 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Hey, maybe some of the local Turks can help me figure out how to do this.

My daughter lives in Istanbul. I want to send her some flowers for her birthday on Monday, December 18.

I have found a few florists through the internet, but none that speak enough English to make up for my paucity in Turkish. I need a florist that
1) Can discuss details by MSN messenger, so that I can place the order,
2) Can communicate with me well enough in English for us to work out all the details (Unless one of you wants to get on MSN Messenger with me and walk me through it. :) )
3) Makes deliveries to the 34696 Bulgurlu -Üsküdar part of Istanbul, and
4) Will accept payment by credit card online or over the telephone.
Hello friend,
I found a florist from Bulgurlu, İstanbul. I sent a message which tells about your wish. We'll communicate on MSN. Can you give me your MSN address? Mine is schoolmaster1954@hotmail.com
Reply

dostpost
12-13-2006, 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Hey, maybe some of the local Turks can help me figure out how to do this.

My daughter lives in Istanbul. I want to send her some flowers for her birthday on Monday, December 18.

I have found a few florists through the internet, but none that speak enough English to make up for my paucity in Turkish. I need a florist that
1) Can discuss details by MSN messenger, so that I can place the order,
2) Can communicate with me well enough in English for us to work out all the details (Unless one of you wants to get on MSN Messenger with me and walk me through it. :) )
3) Makes deliveries to the 34696 Bulgurlu -Üsküdar part of Istanbul, and
4) Will accept payment by credit card online or over the telephone.

ok , i will try to find a florist who can speak english and can help you. i will post a message about this on a Turkish well-known forum.
i will pm you if i receive an answer.
Reply

Grace Seeker
12-13-2006, 07:40 PM
schoolmaster ve mustkic

Cok, cok tesekkur ederim. I really appreciate your help.

Kisenlikle siz hem gercekten arkadaslar.
(I know that in a sentence like this I don't need to state the verb, for the verb "are" is implied. How about my word order? Do I have it right?)
Reply

schoolmaster54
12-14-2006, 09:38 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
schoolmaster ve mustkic

Cok, cok tesekkur ederim. I really appreciate your help.

Kisenlikle siz hem gercekten arkadaslar.
(I know that in a sentence like this I don't need to state the verb, for the verb "are" is implied. How about my word order? Do I have it right?)

Syn schoolmaster;


Siparişlerimiz internet üzerinden ve telefonla sipariş olarak gerçekleşebilmektedir Ödeme şekillerimiz
1)Havale olarak
2)İnternet üzerinden sipariş verdiğnizde sistemden kredi kartı olarak
3)telefon ile sanal pos üzerinden kredi kartı olarak
Gerçekleştirebilirsiniz msn aracılığı ile sipariş şuan için gerçekleştirememekteyiz detaylı bilgi için 0216 444 00 79 ve 0216 537 16 84 nolu irtibat telefonlarımızdan bize ulaşabilirsiniz


Göstermiş Olduğunuz İlgi İçin Teşekkür Ederiz.
İyi Günler Dileriz.
Alev YILDIZ
E-cicek.net
Reply

Grace Seeker
12-14-2006, 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by schoolmaster54
Syn Mevlut TOK;


Siparişlerimiz internet üzerinden ve telefonla sipariş olarak gerçekleşebilmektedir Ödeme şekillerimiz
1)Havale olarak
2)İnternet üzerinden sipariş verdiğnizde sistemden kredi kartı olarak
3)telefon ile sanal pos üzerinden kredi kartı olarak
Gerçekleştirebilirsiniz msn aracılığı ile sipariş şuan için gerçekleştirememekteyiz detaylı bilgi için 0216 444 00 79 ve 0216 537 16 84 nolu irtibat telefonlarımızdan bize ulaşabilirsiniz


Göstermiş Olduğunuz İlgi İçin Teşekkür Ederiz.
İyi Günler Dileriz.
Alev YILDIZ
E-cicek.net
OK. That's all Turkish to me. Which is to say, I'm not able to understand much of it.imsad

Can you try it again in English? Lutfen.:)
Reply

schoolmaster54
12-14-2006, 09:11 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
OK. That's all Turkish to me. Which is to say, I'm not able to understand much of it.imsad

Can you try it again in English? Lutfen.:)

Dear Schoolmaster,

Your orders can be placed on the internet and on telephone.


Our form of payment:
1) as money order,
2) as a credit card from the system when ordered on the internet,
3) as a credit card when ordered on the cyber post on the telephone,

Orders cannot be placed on MSN at the moment. You can reach us on the phone (+90 216 444 00 79 and +90 216537 16 84) for detailed information.

Thanks for your interest you showed us.
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E-cicek.net
Reply

dostpost
12-14-2006, 09:39 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
OK. That's all Turkish to me. Which is to say, I'm not able to understand much of it.imsad

Can you try it again in English? Lutfen.:)

i searched in google "uluslararasi cicekcilik (international florists)" and found some links which have english page versions:


http://www.marmaracicek.com/eng/
http://www.sarifrezya.com/defaulte.asp
http://www.floracicek.com/default.asp?LID=EN
http://www.polatcicek.com/?dil=en
http://www.yalicicek.net/default.asp?LID=EN
http://www.gardenyacicek.com/default.asp?LID=EN

these florists sells online.

prices can be different so i offer you bargaining.


good luck my brother. inshallah you will manage your plan.
Reply

dostpost
12-14-2006, 09:40 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
OK. That's all Turkish to me. Which is to say, I'm not able to understand much of it.imsad

Can you try it again in English? Lutfen.:)

i searched in google "uluslararasi cicekcilik (international florists)" and found some links which have english page versions:


http://www.marmaracicek.com/eng/
http://www.sarifrezya.com/defaulte.asp
http://www.floracicek.com/default.asp?LID=EN
http://www.polatcicek.com/?dil=en
http://www.yalicicek.net/default.asp?LID=EN
http://www.gardenyacicek.com/default.asp?LID=EN

these florists sells online.

prices can be different so i offer you bargaining.


good luck my brother. inshallah you will manage your plan.


my search code:

http://www.google.com/search?q=ulusl...&start=20&sa=N
Reply

Grace Seeker
12-15-2006, 03:52 AM
Well, I checked out all those websites, found a few more on my own, and sent off a bunch of emails. It is late here, making it early morning in Turkey, so I didn't think calling would be a good choice. Hopefully I'll get some answers in the morning. About all I can do for the moment is wait.




And, while I wait, I have another question. This time, about Islam and the various sects within it. I know that there are Sunni, and Shia (or is it Shiite?, I see both). But if I remember when I spoke to my daughter about this, she said that most folks in Turkey are something else. Hanafi? or something like that. (I hope I'm close enough you can figure out what I am talking about.) Can anyone fill me in on what that means, the origin of this sect, how it differs from the other divisions within Islam?
Reply

schoolmaster54
12-15-2006, 08:27 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Well, I checked out all those websites, found a few more on my own, and sent off a bunch of emails. It is late here, making it early morning in Turkey, so I didn't think calling would be a good choice. Hopefully I'll get some answers in the morning. About all I can do for the moment is wait.




And, while I wait, I have another question. This time, about Islam and the various sects within it. I know that there are Sunni, and Shia (or is it ****e, I see both). But if I remember when I spoke to my daughter about this, she said that most folks in Turkey are something else. Hanafi? or something like that. (I hope I'm close enough you can figure out what I am talking about.) Can anyone fill me in on what that means, the origin of this sect, how it differs from the other divisions within Islam?

Hanafiyyah

Doctrines The Hanafiyyah school is the first of the four orthodox Sunni schools of law. It is distinguished from the other schools through its placing less reliance on mass oral traditions as a source of legal knowledge. It developed the exegesis of the Qur'an through a method of analogical reasoning known as Qiyas (see Sunni Islam). It also established the principle that the universal concurrence of the Ummah (community) of Islam on a point of law, as represented by legal and religious scholars, constituted evidence of the will of God. This process is called ijma', which means the consensus of the scholars. Thus, the school definitively established the Qur'an, the Traditions of the Prophet, ijma' and qiyas as the basis of Islamic law. In addition to these, Hanafi accepted local customs as a secondary source of the law.
History The Hanafi school of law was founded by Nu'man Abu Hanifah (d.767) in Kufa in Iraq. It derived from the bulk of the ancient school of Kufa and absorbed the ancient school of Basra. Abu Hanifah belonged to the period of the successors (tabiin)of the Sahabah (the companions of the Prophet). He was a Tabi'i since he had the good fortune to have lived during the period when some of the Sahabah were still alive. Having originated in Iraq, the Hanafi school was favoured by the first 'Abbasid caliphs in spite of the school's opposition to the power of the caliphs.
The privileged position which the school enjoyed under the 'Abbasid caliphate was lost with the decline of the 'Abbasid caliphate. However, the rise of the Ottoman empire led to the revival of Hanafi fortunes. Under the Ottomans the judgement-seats were occupied by Hanafites sent from Istanbul, even in countries where the population followed another madhhab. Consequently, the Hanafi madhhab became the only authoritative code of law in the public life and official administration of justice in all the provinces of the Ottoman empire. Even today the Hanafi code prevails in the former Ottoman countries. It is also dominant in Central Asia and India.
Symbols The Hanafi school of jurisprudence has no distinctive symbol system.
Adherence There are no official figures for the number of followers of the Hanafi school of law. It is followed by the vast majority of people in the Muslim world.
Headquarters/
Main Centre The school has no headquarters as such. It is followed by the majority of the Muslim population Of Turkey, Albania, the Balkans, Central Asia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, China, India and Iraq.


My Love and My Choice

Edited by Syed Mumtaz Ali



To Print this page in PDF format

Part I - The supreme Sunni Way of Life & the Honourable Hanafi School of Law
Part II - Beliefs and Kalam
Chart showing the divergent views between the various Imams regarding Theft
Chart showing the divergent views between the Imams regarding Marriage
Increase and Decrease of Faith in Terms of Quality and Quantity
All Muslims are Equal in Respect to Beliefs


Part I
The Supreme Sunni Way of Life
and the Honourable Hanafi School of Law
Among the Muslims the framing of laws has always been the preserve of the religious leaders, men distinguished for their extreme devoutness and piety. The qualities prized most in religious people are detachment from worldly matters, aloofness, strictness in the performance of duties, unawareness of public affairs and dislike of the followers of other religions. All these are qualities adverse to social progress. People characterized by an excess of these qualities, especially if they are inborn in them, are unable to understand the requirements of a developing civilization. For all the veneration such people rightfully enjoy because of their holiness and purity, they can offer little guidance to men and women in the conduct of their mundane affairs. Who can deny the exalted rank of godly men like Junaid Baghdadi, Ma'ruf Karkhi, Shibli, and Dawud Ta'i; but one cannot imagine them in the role of legislators. Even the mujtahids who framed personal and public laws under the title of Fiqh, although no anchorites like these holy men, did not know enough about mundane matters to legislate about them. That explains why some of their laws are so rigid and unimaginative as to be difficult of enforcement. For example, Shafi'i and some other mujtahids maintain that no one but a reliable man can be a witness to a marriage, that a neighbour has no right of preemption, that it is impermissible to sell gifts, that the testimony of dhimmis is not admissible in any circumstances, and that if a Muslim kills hundred of innocent dhimmis, he is not punishable for this. Laws of this kind are simply not workable.
Abu Hanifah was alone among his contemporaries in combining religious piety with an understanding of worldly needs, and especially the needs of a growing society. Because of the legal references constantly made to him, he had become acquainted with thousands of complicated questions concerning human relations. His consultative council was to all intents and purposes a supreme court, which had decided hundreds of thousands of cases. It virtually had an official status and was consulted by State functionaries. Most of his disciples and associates, who numbered hundreds, were people holding judicial posts. To crown all, he was a born jurist with a flair for the finer points of law and an intuitive appreciation of its operation in human affairs. A good illustration of this is provided by the following incident narrated by most of the historians who have written about him.
One day Abu Hanifah called on Qadi Abi Laila and found him engaged in hearing a case. The plaintiff alleged that the defendant had defamed him by calling his mother an adulteress. The Qadi inquired of the defendant, who also was present in court, what he had to say in his defence. Abu Hanifah, intervening, said to the Qadi that the suit was not yet ready for being heard and advised him to ask the plaintiff if his mother was alive, because, if she was, she should also join the suit and be either personally present or authorise the plaintiff in writing to represent her. On the Qadi questioning him accordingly, the plaintiff stated that his mother was dead. The Qadi thereupon wished to proceed with the hearing. Abu Hanifah intervened again and suggested that the plaintiff be asked whether he had any brothers and sisters, because if he did, they should also be joined to the suit. There were a number of further questions which Abu Hanifah caused the Qadi to put to the plaintiff. After these questions had been answered, Abu Hanifah declared that the case was ripe for hearing and advised the Qadi to proceed with the examination of the plaintiff. It is clear from this account that, but for Abu Hanifah's intervention, the Qadi would have proceeded with the case in a manner no better than the rough-and-ready manner in which the common people settle their disputes. Abu Hanifah desired the case to be heard in accordance with the proper judicial procedure, an essential requirement which was that all the persons who could claim to be aggrieved by the cause of action should be parties to the suit so that it should not be necessary for the court to adjudicate severally upon a number of claims arising from the same facts.
I will now deal with those special features of Hanafi Fiqh which exalt it above all other systems of Fiqh.
The first and foremost distinguishing mark of Hanafi Fiqh is that it bases laws upon expediency and beneficialness. There have been two schools of thought in Islam from the very beginning in regard to prescriptions of the Shar'iah. According to one of them, they are purely devotional, that is to say, there is no expediency or benefit implied in them. For instance, wine drinking and debauchery are reprehensible simply because the Sha'riah has prohibited them, while charity and almsgiving are praiseworthy simply because the Lawgiver has enjoined them - intrinsically none of these acts is either good or bad. Shafi'i is inclined to subscribe to this school of thought, and perhaps that is the reason why Abu'l-Hasan Ash'ari, the founder of kalam among the Shafi'ites, based his system upon it.
According to the second school of thought, all rules of the Shar'iah have their origin in expediency, even though the common people do not understand this in the case of some of them. This doctrine has been the subject of much controversy because of prominent authorities ranging themselves on opposite sides with regards to it. The controversy, however, was not justified since the expediency and purpose of all important enjoinments have been stated in the Qur'an itself. In rejoinders to the unbelievers, the Qur'an always explains the rationale of its directives. For example, it says about prayer that it saves one from immoral and forbidden acts; about fasting, that it leads to piety; about jihad, that it is intended to end disruption. There are similar explanations and hints here and there in the Qur'an about other acts commanded by it.
Abu Hanifah subscribed to the doctrine of the rationality and beneficialness of the rules of the Shar'iah and made it a postulate of all his Fiqh propositions. It is owing to this that of all the systems of Fiqh, the Hanafi system is most in accord with rational principles. Tahawi, who was both a muhaddith and a mujtahid, has written a book on this subject under the title of Sharh Ma'ani al-Athat, in which he stresses the necessity of proving Fiqh propositions with the aid of both Qur'anic text and rational argument. He deals with every aspect of Fiqh and, although exhibiting a creditable impartiality, [and even though] he disagrees with Abu Hanifah on some questions, he proves by arguments worthy of a mujtahid that on most questions, Abu Hanifah's stand was in accord with both reason and the Traditions. Muhammad b. al-Hasan also has employed rational argument on most questions in his Kitab al-Hujaj. Both these books have been published and are available for anyone interested to consult.
Even Shafi'ites and others do not deny that Abu Hanifah's madhhab is in conformity with reason. Indeed, it was not to be expected that they would deny this, maintaining as they do that the further the prescriptions of the Shariah are removed from reason the better. Thus Razi, discussing Zakat, says that Shafi'i's standpoint on it is more correct than Abu Hanifah's because it is far removed from reason and analogy, Zakat being a purely devotional duty needing no rational justification.
The fact that, unlike his contemporaries, Abu Hanifah favoured the principle of rationality was due to a special reason. The other doctors who applied themselves to the systematization of Fiqh began their education with that subject. Abu Hanifah, on the other hand, began his education with Kalam, an application which sharpened his intellect and increased his power of reasoning. As the Mu'tazilah and others with whom he engaged in debates followed the principle of rationality, he had to do the same in contending with them. This exercise made him realize that every prescription of the Shariah was consonant with reason. When he turned to Fiqh later on, he brought the same approach to bear on its problems. A comparison of the formulations of the Hanafi system of Fiqh with those of other systems clearly shows this approach as the distinguishing feature of the former. Not to speak of mundane matters, even in matters pertaining to worship, which in the view of literal-minded people have nothing to do with reason, the rules framed by Abu Hanifah are eminently rational.
If one tries to determine the benefits aimed at by the Shariah in prescribing prayer, fasting, Hajj and Zakat as obligatory duties and what in the light of the benefits should be the modes of performing these duties, one finds that only the modes established by the Hanafi Fiqh are appropriate. Prayer, for example, is the name given to a combination of acts, having different degrees of importance in relation to the real object of prayer (namely, the cultivation of humility, expression of devotion, affirmation of God's greatness, invocation of God's grace) and in proportion to the extent to which they are respectively effective in achieving that object. Some of the acts are obligatory and indispensable because in their absence, the object of prayer is defeated. Each of such acts is called a fard in the language of the Shariah. The other acts only add grace and beauty to the ritual of prayer and their omission does not defeat the object of prayer. Such acts rank lower than acts of the first kind and are called sunnat or mustahab.
The Prophet did not specify which acts were fard and wajib and which were sunnat. There can, however, be no doubt that all the acts involved in prayer are not of equal importance. That is why the mujtahids thought it necessary to grade them and give them separate names. Abu Hanifah did the same, but his grading is superior to that of the other imams in that it is more realistic. For example, take the question as to what are the essential ingredients of prayer, that is to say, the acts without which prayer cannot be performed. Now, since in reality prayer consists in the affirmation of submission to God and in humbling oneself before Him, therefore all the imams are agreed that niyyat (expression of the intention to pray), takbir (saying: "God is great"), qira'at (reciting Qur'anic passages), ruku' (bending down with hands on knees), sujud (bowing the head on the ground), etc., which are the best outward forms of submission to God and humbling oneself before Him, are obligatory, and the Lawgiver himself has hinted at that and, in fact, clearly stated it in some places. But some of the imams went beyond that and declared even a particular manner of performing these acts or making these utterances to be de rigueur, although it was not intended to be so. Abu Hanifah does not consider the manner to have been prescribed strictly. For example, he thinks that the takbir-i-tahrimah (the formula of glorification of God = Allahu Akbar) can be uttered in words other than Allahu Akbar which have the same meaning, e.g., Allahu A'zam or Allahu Ajall. Shafi'i thinks that it cannot. Abu Hanifah even maintains that it is permissible to say the takbir in Persian. Shafi'i on the other hand, holds that this invalidates the prayer. According to Abu Hanifah, the duty of qira'at can be performed by reciting any ayat of the Qur'an, while according to Shafi'i, it can be performed only by reciting the Surat al-Fatihah. In Abu Hanifah's opinion, a person incapable of reciting the Qur'an in Arabic may recite it in some other language, but Shafi'i rules that out as impermissible.
It should not be concluded from this that Abu Hanifah or any other mujtahid fixed the essential element of prayer purely on the basis of reason and analogy. The imams have, on the contrary, adduced pronouncements and hints from Traditions in support of these elements, and their arguments are set forth at length in books of Fiqh. All that I mean to say is that Abu Hanifah's enunciation's are supported both by pronouncements and hints derived from Traditions by rational arguments, which shows what an insight he had into the inner purpose and justification of Shariah prescriptions.
These remarks apply equally to questions relating to Zakat. The real motive behind Zakat is human sympathy and help of the needy. That is why those who most need and deserve sympathy and help, such as beggars, the indigent, officers administering Zakat, the grief-stricken, debtors, travellers, soldiers and self-ransomed slaves, have been declared to be special objects of it. But differences arose on the question of dispensation. Shafi'i thinks that it is obligatory to give Zakat to all these categories of recipients at the same time or that, in other words, if even a single category is left out, the duty of Zakat is not fulfilled. Abu Hanifah, on the other hand, holds that although Zakat cannot be given to anybody outside these categories, the question whether it must be given to all the categories together or may be given to some of them has to be decided with reference to the circumstances. Thus, according to him, the imam or ruler may select some of the categories and leave out the others.
Another question on which Abu Hanifah and the other imams disagree is that of the mode of giving Zakat on domestic animals. According to Abu Hanifah, Zakat on domestic animals may be given either in kind or in cash. Shafi'i maintains that it must be given in kind and that, if given in cash, it does not discharge the obligation. This ruling ignores the fact that so far as the object of Zakat is concerned, it is immaterial whether an animal or its prices is given away: the Lawgiver Himself made no clear distinction between the two.
Besides these propositions, there are hundreds of questions relating to ritual duties ('ibadat) on which Abu Hanifah's enunciation's show that he gave special consideration to the inner purpose and the benefits likely to accrue. I, however, refrain from setting them forth for want of space. This characteristic is more manifest in Abu Hanifah's treatment of secular matters.
The second distinguishing feature of Hanafi Fiqh is that it is easier to understand and act upon than the other systems of Fiqh.
The Qur'an says repeatedly: "God wishes to be gentle, and not strict with you." The Prophet declared: "I come to you with a gentle and easy Shar'iah." It is Islam's special pride in comparison with other religions that it is far removed from monasticism, that its ritual is not rigorous, that its enjoinments are easy to understand and act upon.
Hanafi Fiqh is superior to its rivals on similar grounds.
So well known is the fact that Hanafi Fiqh is easy and liberal that poets and writers often employ it as a proverb. A rather curious example of this is a simile used by Anwari, an obscene and unbridled poet, in which he speaks of "the liberties allowed by Abu Hanifah." The simile occurs in an improper context, but the point it makes is clear. On any question, whether pertaining to the duties of worship or to worldly transactions, one finds Abu Hanifah's precepts easy and gentle and those of the other imams difficult and harsh. Let me by way of illustration take the rules regarding theft, laid down in the Kitab al-Jinayat (the Criminal Code) and the Kitab al-Hudud (the Penal Code).
It is agreed by all authorities that the punishment for theft is cutting off the right hand, but the mujtahids in defining theft have laid down certain conditions without the fulfillment of which this punishment cannot be awarded. What effect these conditions have on the rules relating to theft will be clear from the following comparative table, which will also show how easy and consistent with civilized living is Abu Hanifah's madhhab as compared with the other madhhabs.
A large part of Fiqh deals with prohibitions and permissions. In this connection, there are many precepts of the other imams which, if they were to be acted upon, would make life unlivable, while Abu Hanifah's precepts are easy to follow. For example, according to Shafi'i, the following acts are impermissible: bathing or performing ablution with water heated on dung-fire; eating out of clay vessels baked on dung-fire; using vessels made of tin, glass, crystal and agate; wearing garments made of wool, sable fur and leather (in which prayer cannot be offered); vessels, chairs and saddles with silver work on them; common sales in which there is no declaration of selling and buying. Abu Hanifah considers all these acts permissible.
An important sector of Fiqh connected with the requirements of society is that which deals with transactions between individuals, and it is here that the practical wisdom of the various mujtahids can best be judged. Up to Abu Hanifah's time, the legal directions regarding transactions were too primitive to fulfill the needs of a developed society. There were no rules governing contracts, no written documents, no procedure laid down for the adjudication of disputes and the adducing of evidence. Abu Hanifah was the first to introduce all these. Unfortunately, mujtahids who came after him, instead of adding to what he had accomplished, reverted to the old-time rough and ready practices, motivated as they were by a deep-rooted bias for unworldliness. A famous traditionist taunts jurists in the following words: "These people think that when a suit is filed regarding a piece of land, it is necessary to state in the plaint its situation, boundaries and legal position, although in the Prophet's time there was no question of furnishing these particulars." For the traditionist, this is a matter for reproach, but if he had lived in a civilized country and had had something to do with business transactions, he would have known that the things he considers reprehensible are essential to civilized living.

Abu HanifahThefts which, according to Abu Hanifah, ARE NOT punishable with the cutting off of the right hand:Other SchoolsDivergent views held by the other Imams:Theft of an article valued at less than an ashrafi [a gold coin]The other imams fix the minimum value at a quarter ashrafi [a gold coin]A theft committed jointly by a number of persons.Ahmad Hanbal thinks each of them is liable to have his hand cut off.Theft of a shroud.The other imams hold the opposite view.A theft committed by a non-adultMalik hold the opposite view.Theft of a wife's or of a husband's goods.Malik holds the opposite view.Theft of the goods of a near relation, e.g., a nephew or a brother.The other imams hold the opposite view.A theft committed by refusing to return a thing taken on loan.The other imams hold the opposite view.Thefts committed by followers of other religions living under Muslim protection.The other imams hold the opposite view.Theft of a copy of the Qur'an.Shafi'i and Malik hold the opposite view.Theft of wood or other perishable goods.The imams hold the opposite view.
Shafi'i does not consider delivery of possession necessary for a gift, does not recognize a neighbour's right of preemption, regards the testimony of unknown persons as inadmissible in transactions, requires witnesses to marriage to be reliable and just and rules out as invalid the testimony of dhimmis in their transactions inter se. These things may be practicable in countries still in a primitive state, where transactions are simple and of an elementary nature, but not in civilized countries, where transactions are variegated and complex and cannot be conducted without a proper determination of the rights of the parties and the nature of the subject matter. Abu Hanifah, realizing this, holds views different from those of Shafi'i, and it was Malik's failure to realize it that evoked from Ibn Khaldun the well-founded remark about his madhhab, namely, that it gained currency only in countries which had not made much progress in civilization.
The sagacity and clear sightedness that Abu Hanifah brought to bear upon his formulation of rules relating to secular transactions can properly be gauged only by a detailed examination of some of the chapters into which these rules are divided. But there is no room for that in this short book. I therefore content myself with discussing the rules on marriage, which pertain to both the religious sphere and the secular.
The jurists have included marriage among religious duties, but this is only a technical convention. Because of its intimate connection with the life of the community, marriage is largely a social transaction. One reason why I have selected the rules about marriage, by way of illustration, is that some European writers have described the Hanafi law of marriage as barbarous and inhuman. But I hope to prove that not even the most civilized countries of the world today have fairer and more humane marriage laws than those laid down in Hanafi Fiqh. Bentham characterizes the Roman law of marriage as a collection of unjust rules, whereas the Hanafi law of marriage, as I hope to show, is the very antithesis of an unjust dispensation. This may also, incidentally, correct the misconception that Hanafi Fiqh is derived from Roman law.
Marriage forms a large part of social life. According to a philosopher, it is the binding force of communities, the root of civilization and the foundation of culture. It can, therefore, well be said that a lawmaker who makes a good exposition of marriage laws has a good insight into the laws that govern civilization. Although Abu Hanifah was not the author of the marriage laws he expounded, these having been laid down in principle by the Lawgiver Himself, yet the perspicacity with which he expounded them and deduced detailed rules from them is the hallmark of a great lawmaker. The Lawgiver's pronouncements were at times mere aphorisms, at times ambiguous statements, at times broad hints, spelling out no details. As a consequence, wide differences arose among the mujtahids about their interpretation and application. The way in which Abu Hanifah worked out the details of general statements, removed the ambiguities, clarified the hints, and framed specific rules was a performance which only his unique gift of ijtihad was equal to. No other mujtahid is his rival in this field.
The following are the broad headings under which he deals with marriage laws:
1) The persons between whom marriage is permissible.
2) Guardianship for purposes of marriage.
3) Stability of the marriage contract.
4) The rights of the parties to a marriage contract.
5) The ritual of marriage.
Restrictions on marriage exist in all religions with slight differences. All religions prescribe certain prohibited degrees, which are more or less the same in all of them and all of which are based on rational considerations. Shah Wali-Allah in the Hujjat-Allah al-Balighah and Bentham in Utility, advance the same arguments to justify the prohibited degrees. As these are in accord with nature and reason and are clearly stated in the Qur'an, all the mujtahids are agreed on the principle underlying them, but they disagree on the details not mentioned in the Qur'anic text. One of the latter is the question whether the prohibition is created by illicit sexual intercourse, which is the subject matter of much controversy between Abu Hanifah and Shafi'i. Shafi'i holds that it is not. For example, a man is not prohibited from marrying a woman with whom his father has had sexual intercourse. In fact, Shafi'i stretches this to the point of saying that a man may even marry his illegitimate daughter. The argument he advances is that, since illicit intercourse is an illegal act, it cannot turn what is lawful into what is unlawful. Abu Hanifah holds the opposite view. According to him, the natural effect of blood-relationship on the relations between men and women is not confined to marriage, and this is the correct view. The principle underlying forbidden degrees does not come into operation specially as a consequence of marriage. It is patently contrary to the laws of Nature to permit marital relations between a man and his own daughter, even if born out of wedlock. This is also true of the concubine of one's father. There are hints about this in the Qur'an, but as I am not concerned with a textual debate, I refrain from citing them.
The second broad question concerns the competence to enter into a marriage contract. This is a very important question, on the decision of which depends the goodness or badness of the institution of marriage to a large extent. According to Shafi'i and Ahmad b. Hanbal, a woman even if she has attained to puberty and maturity is not competent to contract marriage independently and needs a guardian to consent to her doing so. On the one hand, they thus restrict a woman's legal powers to the guardian that he can give her in marriage even against her will. According to Abu Hanifah, a woman who is a major is competent to contract marriage of her own will and can, in fact, on attaining puberty, refuse to be bound by a marriage contracted for her by her guardian during her minority.
This divergence of views stems from a difference of outlook on women's rights. In all religions other than Islam, women have been assigned a low social status and granted rights in a niggardly manner. Among the Hindus and Christians, they have no right of inheritance, which was the case in Arabia itself before Islam. In many other matters they are treated as men's inferiors, but Islam gave men and women equal rights, declaring: "Men are entitled to what they earn by their deeds, and women to what they earn by theirs." Abu Hanifah kept this equality in view in all matters, which is a distinctive feature of his Fiqh. For example, according to him, in matters like marriage, divorce and release from the marital bond, women's testimony is of equal value to men's, whereas the other imams regard it as unreliable. Even where the latter consider women's testimony as admissible, they impose the condition that two women should corroborate each other, Shafi'i raising the number to four. With Abu Hanifah, a woman's evidence is as reliable as a man's. Abu Hanifah considers women as fit to be appointed qadis, whereas the other imams do not. As in these matters, so in marriage, Abu Hanifah concedes to women an independent legal status equal to men's.
Apart from the principle of the equality of the sexes, marriage is a transaction which cannot be dealt with on the analogy of other secular transactions, since it is a relationship which is many-faceted and intended to be lifelong. It is extremely unfair to grant one of the parties to such a relationship no rights at all.
Shafi'i relies on literalist arguments to justify his stand, but Abu Hanifah counters them with stronger arguments of the same kind. If Shafi'i quotes: "There is no marriage without a guardian," Abu Hanifah rejoins with: "A woman is entitled to contract marriage herself rather than through her guardian; the consent of a woman who has come of age is to be obtained." However, this is not the place to go further into the debate.
The third broad question is about the extent to which it is necessary to make the marriage contract stable and enduring. Marriage can be the foundation of civilized life and the binding force of communities only if it is a firm and lasting relationship; otherwise it is only a means of gratifying an animal appetite. Abu Hanifah has kept this clearly in view in laying down rules about the method of performing marriage, fixing the dower, enforcing divorce and giving effect to khal' (divorce by the wife).
Abu Hanifah's most important pronouncement in this connection is that so long as the relations between husband and wife are good, divorce is prohibited. Even where he considers it permissible - that is, when there are compelling reasons for it - he prescribes a procedure which leaves room for rectification and revocation. According to this procedure, there must be three divorces at intervals of one month, so that the husband gets ample time to reconsider his decision and, if he so wishes, rescind it, which indeed is mustahabb (desirable). If there is no reconciliation during this period, and it is established that none is possible, then there has of necessity to be a divorce. After the divorce, the husband has to pay the wife's dower and her maintenance expenses for three months. The idea behind this is that the wife should have means of subsistence until she can find a new husband. I give below a table showing Abu Hanifah's rules on this subject and those of other imams. How important Abu Hanifah considers the marriage contract to be and how solicitous he is to ensure that it remains inviolate under any circumstances will be clear from the table.
Abu Hanifah's RulesOther Imams' RulesSo long as there are good relations between husband and wife, divorce is prohibited.According to Shafi'i, it is permissible even then.It is forbidden to give three divorces at a time, and whoever does so is a sinner.Shafi'i and Ahman b. Hanbal think that is does not matter.The amount of dower can in no circumstances be less than ten dirhams. (The idea is to prevent thoughtless divorces, for poor people would not find it easy to pay such an amount.)According to Shafi'i and Ahmad b. Hanbal, even a habbah is enough (which means that a man may divorce his wife frivolously and subject her to severe hardship).Consummation of marriage makes payment of the full dower compulsory.According to Shafi'i, it make only half the dower payable.Skin diseases (e.g., leucoderma) are no grounds of dissolution of marriage.According to Shafi'i, they are.If a man divorces his wife during his last illness and dies during the 'iddat (period of probation), the wife is entitled to inherit from him.Shafi'i holds that she is not.A revocable divorce is no legal bar to sexual intercourse; for the marital connection is not broken by a minor misunderstanding or quarrel.According to Shafi'i it is forbidden as if the divorce were irrevocable.For the revocation of a divorce, an oral declaration is not necessary. Any act indicative of reconciliation is enough (the idea is to facilitate reconciliation and revocation of divorce).Shafi'i thinks that a formal declaration is necessary.No witness to a revocation is required; for it may happen in some cases that no witness may be available during the prescribed period, which may be about to expire, and as a result the divorce may become irrevocable.Malik considers a witness to be indispensable.
In framing rules of law for marriage, it is extremely necessary to fix the rights of men and women in such a way as to ensure justice between them and see that the equality with men which women enjoy in certain matters is not nullified; for what a woman expects from marriage is happiness and comfort and not the negation of her inherent rights. It is a special liberal feature of Islam, not paralleled in any other religion, that it has fixed women's rights in the matter of marriage with magnanimity. Abu Hanifah's rules of marriage are par excellence inspired by this spirit. It is a result of this that the other imams, where they disagree with him, seem to err on the side of injustice.
Let me, by way of illustration, take the question of khal', which is a counterpart of divorce. All the imams are agreed that, just as a man has been given the right of divorce, a woman has the right to get a dissolution of marriage for a consideration, that is, on giving something by way of compensation. There is, however, a difference of opinion as to the form of the consideration. Abu Hanifah holds that, if the fault is the wife's in that it is her behaviour which is the cause of estrangement, then she should give the husband by way of compensation a sum equal to her dower and that it would be improper for the husband to demand a higher sum. If, however, the fault lies with the husband, then the wife is entitled to release from the marriage bond without paying any compensation, and it would, indeed, be improper on the husband's part to ask for compensation. Shafi'i and Malik, on the other hand, are of the opinion that the husband may claim as much compensation as he likes and compel the wife to pay it, even if he is in the wrong - which is obviously unjust.
The last broad question is that of the rites of marriage. The rites are intended to achieve two objects: first, verification of the parties' consent and, second, giving publicity to the factum of marriage. Abu Hanifah prescribes rites eminently suitable for the achievement of these objects, viz., first, that the parties should utter such words as clearly signify that they consent to the contract and, second, that the contract should be entered into in the presence of two witnesses. These are simple conditions which can be fulfilled in practically any circumstance. Some other imams, however, prescribe conditions so stringent as to be extremely difficult to fulfill. Shafi'i, for example, insists that the witnesses should be just, and the definition of 'just' that the mujtahids, and especially Shafi'i, give is such as fits hardly one in a thousand persons. With such a condition imposed, a fully legal marriage would be extremely rare, if not non-existent. Furthermore, Shafi'i and Ahmad b. Hanbal consider it essential for the witnesses to be men; but Abu Hanifah thinks women also to be qualified, which is the more reasonable view. Again, Shafi'i maintains that a verbal formula specifically pertaining to the marriage contract must be used, although there is nothing to be gained by such a formula and the form of words relating to contracts like gift, transfer of ownership, etc., should do.
One more distinguishing characteristic of Hanafi Fiqh is the liberal rights it grants to dhimmis, that is to say, non-Muslims living under the protection of an Islamic State. Preservation of the rights of dhimmis finds mention in many of the Lawgiver's own directives; but since these are directives of a general nature and some other pronouncements of His seem to be at variance with them, they were interpreted in different ways. There is, however, no doubt that Abu Hanifah's interpretation of them is the correct one. Islam ruled over vast territories, in which there lived hundreds of non-Muslim groups, the proper preservation of whose rights was a sine qua non of peace and order. No non-Islamic government in history has granted to peoples who were not co-religionists of the ruling race rights as liberal as those granted by Abu Hanifah to dhimmis. Europe, which is proud of its systems of law and justice, may boast of such liberality, but can produce no practical example of it. So far as Abu Hanifah's laws relating to dhimmis are concerned, they were actually in force under all Islamic governments and were an important part of the fundamental rights of the subjects. An outstanding example is provided by the treatment accorded to non-Muslims in Harun al-Rashid's vast empire.
The biggest question in this connection is that of murder and retribution for it. In Abu Hanifah's opinion, the blood of dhimmis is equal in sanctity to that of Muslims. He holds that if a Muslim murders a dhimmi, he must be put to death in return, and if it is a case of killing in error, then the same blood money must be paid as is payable by a dhimmi for killing a Muslim in error.
Razi, in his Manaqib al-Shafi'i, jibes at the Hanafis, saying that for them the blood of Abu Bakr has the same value as that of a dhimmi, so that if Abu Bakr were to kill a dhimmi he would, according to them, be liable to be punished with death. The Hanifis have nowhere put forward this proposition, which has been invented by Razi himself by way of a reductio ad absurdum. However, I, as a Hanafi, proudly accept it. For under a just regime, king and beggar, the elect and the rejected, have the same status, and it is a proof of Islam's broad-mindedness that it puts ruler and ruled on the same footing. Razi had no reason to be ashamed of this fact.
Let us look at the precepts and examples of the Companions on this subject. 'Ali said: "The blood of dhimmis is our blood, and mulct is payable to them as much as to us." All the other Companions, whether Muhajirs or Ansar, avowed the same sentiment and acted on it. When 'Umar was wounded, his son 'Ubaid-Allah put two unbelievers to death on suspicion. 'Uthman, as soon as he acceded to the caliphate, sent for the Muhajirs and the Ansar and consulted with them about this incident. They unanimously declared 'Ubaid-Allah deserving of being put to death.
Abu Hanifah's other laws about dhimmis were similarly generous. They were to have the same freedom to trade as was enjoyed by the Muslims and would be liable to taxes in the same way as the Muslims. The Jizyah, which was a poll-tax levied in return for protection, was to be fixed in accordance with each payer's capacity to pay, so that poor dhimmis would be exempt from it and if a dhimmi died without paying the Jizyah levied on him it would be written off. Disputes between dhimmis about secular transactions would be settled according to their laws. Thus to take an extreme case, if a fire-worshipper married his own daughter, the Islamic government would accept the marriage as valid, since it was in accord with the laws of his community. The testimony of dhimmis would be admitted in law suits between them. Dhimmis would be free to go into the interior of the Ka'bah, settle at Mecca and Medina, enter all mosques without let or hindrance, and build their places of worship anywhere except in new cities founded by Muslims. If they chose to side with the Muslims in wars against hostile infidels, the Muslim commander could trust them and take all sorts of help from them.
There are many other laws framed by Abu Hanifah in respect of dhimmis which show that in all matters he invested them with rights equal to those of Muslims. In fact, in certain matters he carried this liberality beyond the limits of moderation as, for example, on the question as to when a dhimmi could be considered to have violated his covenant with the Islamic State and forfeited his status as a citizen of it. He maintained that, unless the dhimmis had a fighting force at their disposal and pitched themselves against the government, they did not forfeit their rights of citizenship. For instance, if a dhimmi refused to pay Jizyah or committed adultery with a Muslim woman or spied for infidels or induced a Muslim to abjure Islam or uttered a blasphemy against God or the Prophet, he rendered himself liable to punishment, but would not be considered as a rebel or a traitor and would not forfeit his citizenship rights.
Abu Hanifah and Shafi'i are at variance with each other about some important orders relating to inheritance also. Abu Hanifah's stand is in accord with the clear precepts of the Qur'an. Islam's rules of inheritance, which are different from those of all other legal systems, are inspired by a fine appreciation of human relationships, which is a proof of their being divinely ordained. The principle underlying them is that, in the absence of a bequest, the property of the deceased should devolve upon his natural heirs, in proportion to the degrees of their relationship, which is considered, so to speak, as an implied bequest. Allied to this is the economic principle that it is better for wealth to be distributed among a large number of persons than be concentrated in the hands of a single person or a few persons. These principles seem to have been overlooked by other religions, with the result that their rules of inheritance leave much to be desired. Under Christian law the eldest son is practically the sole heir, the other sons getting only some odds and ends. Among Hindus only sons are entitled to inherit, the father and brother or other relations having no entitlement at all. Islam looked closely and realistically into the claims of various people arising from their relationship to the deceased, and, accordingly, fixed three classes of heirs, namely, dhawi'l-furud (close relations or sharers), 'asbat (residuaries) and dhawi'l-arham (distant kindred). All these classes have been clearly mentioned in the Qur'an and the dhaw'l-arham have been specially mentioned in the following verse: "For men there is a share in what is left behind by their parents or close relatives; and in all property left behind by parents and close relatives. And of those who are relatives, some have greater entitlements than others."
Abu Hanifah, in framing his rules of inheritance, took all the three classes into consideration, but Shafi'i and Malik left out the dhawi'l-arham altogether, so that, according to them, the maternal grandfather, nephews, nieces, etc. are entitled to nothing whatever. They committed the error of treating the dhawi'l-arham as a genus and the dhawi'l-furud and 'asbat as its species.
The Qur'an gives many directives about marriage and divorce, on some of which the mujtahids disagree with each other. I content myself with mentioning two of the most important.
According to Shafi'i, a woman, even if she has reached the age of discretion, cannot marry without the consent of her guardian, while according to Abu Hanifah, she can. Both of them adduce Qur'anic verses and Traditions in support of their points of view. This is no place to discuss the Traditions; but so far as the Qur'an is concerned, Shafi'i bases his claim on the verse: "When you divorce your wives and when the probationary period is over, do not prevent them from taking other husbands." Shafi'i argues that the words "do not prevent" are addressed to guardians, and he concludes from this that the guardians have the right of prevention. In support of this he refers to the occasion for the revelation of the verse describing it thus: "Ma'qal b. Yasar gave his sister in marriage to his paternal uncle's son, who divorced her after a few days, but repented after the probationary period had expired and wished to remarry her, to which she was agreeable. Ma'qal, however, went to her and forbade the new marriage." It was then that the ayat was revealed. I could never have believed that Shafi'i had put upon this verse the construction that he has done, had I not read it in his book with my own eyes. The first question to consider is whether the verse can have the meaning that Shafi'i attaches to it. It is accepted by everybody that the word 'tallaqtum' (you divorce them) are addressed to husbands, and once this is accepted it follows that the words 'ta-dulu hunna' must also be addressed to them; for otherwise the sentence would become incoherent, running thus: "O husbands, when you divorce your wives and when the probationary period is over, then, O guardians for marriage, do not prevent them from taking other husbands." Thus constructed, the sentence is undoubtedly ungrammatical and illogical; for in the adverbial clause the husbands are addressed, but in the main clause they are forgotten and it is the marriage guardians who are addressed. This is no way of speaking. Razi, although a follower of Shafi'i, clearly admits in the Tafsir Kabir, "This interpretation is quite wrong. God cannot speak in this incoherent manner." Even if we accepted Shafi'i's interpretation, his reasoning would not be complete, for it is not conceivable that persons prohibited from doing a thing should at the same time be permitted to do it.
Let me now briefly explain the background of the ayat. It was customary for men in pre-Islamic times to prevent their divorced wives from remarrying because of aversion to the idea of their former wives cohabiting with other men. It was to abolish this evil custom that the ayat was revealed, and its correct translation is as follows: "O husbands, when you divorce your wives and when the probationary period is over, do not prevent them from marrying their husbands (that is to say, the men whom they wish to marry)." This is the meaning that Abu Hanifah attaches to the ayat, and he argues from it that women have an independent right to contract marriage. This argument is confirmed by the word yankihna, because in this word, the act of marrying has been ascribed to women and not to marriage guardians.
The second question at issue relates to three divorces. All the four mujtahid imams agree that if a man pronounces three divorces at the same time, the divorce becomes finally effective and ceases to be revocable. They, however, disagree with one another as to whether giving divorce in this manner is lawful and permissible. Shafi'i thinks that it is and that God has permitted it. Abu Hanifah considers it prohibited and unlawful, and he also regards a man who gives this kind of divorce as a sinner. His argument is that the method of divorce indicated by God is based on the ayat: "Divorce is twice; then there is either stopping nicely or revoking or repudiating graciously." It is only by the method laid down in this ayat that divorce can be given lawfully. Some people have raised this objection to Abu Hanifah's stand that if it is not legally permissible to give three divorces at a time, then what is the sense in "repudiating" - that is to say, giving effect to the divorce, especially when Abu Hanifah himself admits that the latter is permissible? This involves a fine point, which this is not the occasion to discuss. However, I may point out that it is one thing for an act to be prohibited and another for it to be effective. For example, it is prohibited for a man to gift his property to his children in unequal shares; yet if an unjust man does so, his gift will be effective.
In concluding the discussion, let me make it clear that I do not claim infallibility or finality for Abu Hanifah's legal pronouncements. He was, after all, only a mujtahid and not a prophet, and was therefore liable to commit errors, which in fact he actually did. This is why many of his close disciples have disagreed with him on many questions. On the period of rada' at on the apparent or real effectiveness of the qadi's decree, on murder by analogy, on the question of the maximum punishment prescribed being necessarily awardable for prohibited-degree marriages, Abu Hanifah's madhhab does not admit of a reasonable interpretation. The same is true in the case of many other questions. My purpose, however, has been to show that Abu Hanifah was as correct in his opinions as it is possible for a mujtahid to be.
Part II
Beliefs and Kalam "People of the Qibla are Mu'mins and None
Becomes an Infidel by Omission of Works"
Abu Hanifah was very much attracted to kalam in the early part of his educational career. Towards the close of the period of the Companions many new sects arose. Ma'bad al-Juhani introduced the doctrine of Qadr. Wasil b. 'Ata, who was a great scholar of Arabic literature and kalam and a disciple of Hasan Basri, laid the foundation of i'tizal. Jahm b. Safwan founded the Jahmiyyah sect. Several sects of the Kharijites had already come into existence. All these sects were propagating their doctrines in Abu Hanifah's time, and the whole Islamic world rang with religious controversies. The Imam also participated in the controversies for the sake of repudiating the new-fangled doctrines. There can be no doubt that with his extraordinarily keen intellect, he made some subtle contributions, but as his interest in kalam soon yielded place to occupation with the problems of Fiqh, there is no record available of his debates on kalam. However, there are a few tenets all along attributed to him. These bear the stamp of his penetration, originality and wide reach of intellect. We mention some of these, which are very controversial questions among the muhaddithin.
To begin with, the Imam does not regard duties and actions as part of faith. It is superfluous today to discuss this point, for even a man of common intelligence today knows that faith means belief, which is a state of mind, while duties and actions are overt exercises of the human organs, the two categories being disparate and incapable of combining or forming part of each other. In the Imam's time however, this was a very debatable point, to which most scholars of the positive disciplines, some original thinkers among them, were opposed.
Up to the time of the Companions, the surface of Islamic beliefs remained smooth and undisturbed. The Arabs were not interested in philosophical hairsplitting and abstruse questions. But about the middle of the Umayyad period, the decline of military power and the development of culture created an interest in intellectual speculation. Debates started about jabr (compulsion) and qadr (predestination), tashbih (comparing God to man) and tanzih (keeping God pure), 'adl (divine justice) and jaur (divine tyranny). The debates were initiated by people who were either of 'Ajami (non-Arab) origin or had come under the influence of 'Ajami thought. Religious circles, which consisted mostly of Arabs, reacted violently to these new voices, and scholars of Hadith and Fiqh came into the arena to contend against their heresies. For that purpose they had to adopt some attitude, whether positive or negative, towards the new questions raised; but some of them were carried by their combative ardour beyond the limits of moderation. For example, the Mu'tazili doctrine that the Qur'an was the word of God that came into being with the apostleship of the Prophet of Islam was countered by some muhaddithin with the proposition that even the pronunciation of the Qur'an was eternal and uncreated. Dhuhali, who was one of Bukhari's teachers and who has been cited as the authority for many of the Traditions narrated in Bukhari's Sahih, got so angry with Bukhari during a discussion on the doctrine that he had him expelled from his class and even went to the length of making it known that anyone associating with Bukhari would not be permitted to attend his classes. Bukhari believed in the qidam (eternity) of the Qur'an, but held that its qir'at (mode of recitation) was hadith [haadith] (temporal), whereas Dhuhali maintained that it also was eternal.
Extreme views of a similar kind were held on certain other questions too, which it is unnecessary to describe in detail here. In all the debates in which he took part, Abu Hanifah concerned himself with the kernel of the question at issue, combining a rational with a factual approach. One of these questions was the relationship between faith and works. The Murji'ah held that faith and works were two different things and that, given perfect faith, works were of no importance. According to them, if a person sincerely believed in divine unity and the prophethood of Muhammad, but was remiss in performing his duties, he was exempt from punishment. Although the first part of this proposition was correct, the muhaddithin mixed up the two parts and totally opposed the proposition. Their opposition gathered strength from the support that it received from a superficial interpretation of some passages of the Qur'an on the subject. This was a question of personal opinion and if it had stopped at that it would not have mattered very much. Unfortunately, however, these worthies went to the extreme of branding those who disagreed with them as sinners and infidels. Sharik, when Abu Yusuf appeared in his court as a witness, declared that he was not willing to accept the evidence of anyone who did not consider the performance of prayers as part of faith.
Abu Hanifah always tried to arrive at the truth of a doctrine, irrespective of what person or sect held it. When this debate was reported to him, he declared that, according to him, faith and works were two separate things, on a different footing from each other. Upon this many people called him a Murji'it, but he was happy to be called that rather than slur over the truth. Indeed, this title was conferred upon all the muhaddithin and fuqaha' who were at one with Imam Abu Hanifah on this issue.
This doctrine, though apparently not very imposing, had far-reaching implications. That was why Abu Hanifah professed it freely and frankly. A logical corollary of holding work to be part of faith was the proposition that a man devoid of works could not be a mu'min (believer), which was what the Kharijites maintained. Although most muhaddithin did not consider such a man to be an infidel, that was only because they overlooked the corollary, despite its being inevitable.
Imam Razi, a great supporter of Imam Shafi'i, discussing in his Manaqib al-Shafi'i the charge often made against Shafi'i that he believed in contradictory things, mentions as an instance the objection that while on the one hand he held faith to be combination of profession and practice, he asserted on the other that absence of practice did not turn one into an infidel, although a combination could not remain in existence as such if one of the things combined was absent - which, Razi goes on to say, was why the Mu'tazilah, who believed that works were a part of faith, also maintained that without works, faith could not exist. He answers the objection by saying that the substance of faith is confession and affirmation, while works are the consequences and products of it and that, since things are sometimes metaphorically spoken of in terms of what ensues from them, works have come to be known as faith, from which, according to him, it follows that the absence of works does not necessarily entail the absence of faith.
But this is reading into the proposition a meaning not intended by the proponent; and Razi had to admit this, as is clear from the fact that after giving the answer he adds: "This reply gives the lie to the doctrine." Razi was a follower of the Shafi'i school and an ardent supporter of its founder. Nevertheless, being a man of great discernment, he could not but acknowledge that either works had to be regarded as the products, and not an ingredient, of faith or it had to be conceded that one devoid of works was not a mu'min.
There is a piece of writing by Abu Hanifah on this subject, the reasoning of which bears testimony to the incisiveness of his intellect, going as it does to the heart of matter. It was a reply to a letter from 'Uthman Batti, a famous traditionist of the day. The letter, provoked by rumours about the Imam's ideas, was a friendly inquiry. "People call you a Murji'it," 'Uthman had written, "and say that you consider it permissible for a believer to go astray. These imputations have shocked me. Are they true?" The Imam's reply was long. I will content myself with a few excerpts from it. After praising God and the Prophet and thanking 'Uthman for taking a friendly interest in his welfare and reputation, he begins as follows:
"Allow me to remind you that before the Apostle of Allah was assigned his mission, the people were polytheists. He preached to them that there is only one God and asked them to believe in his message. The life and property of anyone who gave up polytheism and adopted Islam became sacred. Then duties were enjoined upon those who had embraced the faith. The performance of these duties was termed 'amal (action, works). It is to this that God refers in the words: "Those who had faith and performed good deeds; and those who believed in God and acted virtuously." There are several ayats of the same kind from which it is clear that the absence of works does not nullify faith, but that the absence of affirmation and belief does. That affirmation and action are two separate things, is also evident from the fact that, while in the matter of affirmation all Muslims are equal, they are graded from the point of view of action; for so far as religion and belief are concerned, they are uniform for all Muslims. God Himself has said: "I have prescribed the same religion for you as I charged Noah with. What I revealed to you and what I charged Abraham, Moses and Jesus with was to preserve the religion and not to be divided in it."You should know that guidance in faith and guidance in works are two different things. You can give the title of mu'min to a person who is unaware of duties? Such a person is ignorant so far as duties are concerned, but is all the same a believer in respect of affirmation. God Himself has made these distinctions in the Qur'an. Would you equate a person who refuses to acknowledge God and His Apostle with one who, though a believer, is ignorant of practical duties. Where the duties are specified in the Qur'an it is said, "God has started this so that you do not go astray," and, in another place, "If one goes astray, let another remind him." Again, Moses is reported as saying, "When I did that, I was one of those who stray." In addition to these verses, there are many which clinch the matter. In fact, the other verses are even clearer. Did the title of Amir al-M'uminin given to Hadrat 'Umar and Hadrat 'Ali signify that they were the amirs of only those who performed their practical duties? Hadrat 'Ali called the people of Syria, who were at war with him, mu'mins. Could there be a greater sin than killing? Would you consider both the killers and the killed to be in the right? If you vindicate one party, namely, Hadrat 'Ali and his supporters, what would you say about the other? Ponder over this and try to understand it.
I assert that all people of the Qibla are mu'mins and that none of them becomes an infidel by omission of works. He who has faith and also performs his duties is without doubt a mu'min and destined for Paradise. He who is devoid of both faith and works is an infidel and destined for Hell. He who has faith, but omits to act is certainly a Muslim, but a sinful one. It is up to God to punish or forgive him."
The way Imam Abu Hanifah proved his thesis cannot be improved upon. What better argument could there be to show that duties and faith are two distinct things than that Islam at the outset preached faith but prescribed no duties? The Qur'anic verses cited by the Imam furnish manifest proof that his contention was correct; for in all the verses 'amal has been joined to iman by a copulative particle, which could not have been done if the former were considered as being a part of the latter. The copulative "fa" in the verse "man yu'min billahi fa ya'mal salihan" finally settles the issue.
There are certain Qur'anic verses and Traditions on the basis of which this reasoning could be challenged, but they are not enough to prove the contrary. The hadith mostly relied upon is the one which says that a mu'min, being a mu'min, cannot commit fornication or theft; but this way of expression was only a rhetorical device intended for emphasis, just as one may say about a person that, being a gentleman, he cannot do such and such a thing, which only means that the acts in question do not befit a gentleman. There is no doubt that fornication and theft do not befit a man of faith; and that is all that the hadith means; otherwise in Abu Dharr's hadith it is clearly stated: "Whoever believes that there is no god but Allah is destined to go to Paradise, even if he is a fornicator and thief."
Increase and Decrease of Faith in Terms of Quality and Quantity
A second question on which Abu Hanifah expressed himself clearly, but has not been correctly understood, is as to whether faith can increase or decrease. The Imam is reported to have said: "Faith neither increases nor decreases." There is no doubt that this is a saying of his, but it has been misinterpreted, not only by muhaddithin and Shafi'is, but even by some Hanafis. There can be increase or decrease in faith from two points of view. The first of these is the point of view of quality: from that point of view it may be said that faith can become more or less intense, or that, in other words, faith means certainty of belief, of which there are degrees. When Abraham asked God how He brought the dead back to life, God said, "You do not yet believe." Abraham replied, "I do believe, but want satisfaction of mind." In a number of verses God has clearly spoken of increase in faith; one such statement is "Zadathum imanan" (It increased their faith).However, the Imam neither affirms nor denies the proposition in this sense; nor was it a moot point in his time. His assertion that faith neither increases nor decreases was intended in another sense, and in that sense it is correct. Those who regard works as part of faith hold that faith increases and decreases quantitatively; a person particular about works is more faithful than a sinner. The muhaddithin clearly make this claim and advance various arguments in support of it. Qastalani writes in his commentary on Bukhari's Sahih: "Faith is increased by righteous deeds and decreased by sin." The muhaddithin as a class express the same opinion in different contexts. It is in the quantitative sense that Imam Abu Hanifah denies increase or decrease in faith. Since he does not believe works to be a part of faith, he holds the quantity of works cannot affect the quantity of faith; and this is the correct position. There is a hadith that says: "Abu Bakr enjoys precedence over you people, not because he prays much, and fasts much, but because of that which is in his heart."
Thus the Imam does not deny that faith can increase or decrease qualitatively but he does deny that it can increase or decrease quantitatively, and this is corollary of his assertion that works are not part of faith.
All Muslims are Equal in Respect to Beliefs
The Imam also maintains that faith does not vary in content and that in respect of beliefs, all Muslims are equal; for the articles of faith are the same for all of them. The Companions and common Muslims all believe in divine unity and prophethood; if there is any difference between them it is in the intensity of their belief. The Imam described this, while replying to 'Uthman Batti, in these words: "The dwellers of heaven and earth have the same religion." In support of this he cited the Qur'anic verse: "We have prescribed for you the same religion as Noah was charged with." The Imam's opponents have vehemently accused him of maintaining that his faith was equal to that of Abu Bakr Siddiq. It has not been established authoritatively that he ever made such a claim, but even if he did, it does not matter very much. Who can deny the kind of equality that he claimed? What is surprising, indeed, is that the critics failed to understand a simple thing like this. Khatib Baghdadi has written many pages to repudiate the claim, without appreciating the real significance of it. He has taken umbrage to the mere fact of the Imam's claiming equality for common Muslims with the Companions, having failed to understand that although the latter were on the whole infinitely superior to the former, there are many points of equality between the two.
Although on all such questions, Imam Abu Hanifah had personal opinions of his own, he never branded the opposite opinions as heresies or deviations. Instances of such liberality are rare in Islam after the first century. Nothing has done more harm to Islam than the mutual denunciations of holders of differing opinions. Differences of opinion had, it is true, cropped up as early as the time of the Companions. On the question of the Prophet's Ascension, for example, while 'Abd-Allah b. 'Abbas and many other Companions believed that the Prophet had actually seen God, Hadrat 'A'ishah vehemently opposed this. She also refused to believe that the dead had heard the Prophet speak, just as Amir Mu'awiyah denied the Prophet's bodily journey to Heaven. But such differences of opinion in those days did not lead the holders of the opinions to denounce each other as infidels and heretics. A man said to 'Abd-Allah b. 'Umar: "There are some people who misinterpret the Qur'an and call us infidels. Are they or are they not themselves infidels?" "Nobody can be called an infidel," replied 'Abd-Allah, "until he says that there are two Gods." After the Companions, such differences gained in intensity and gave rise to sharply divided factions. There are many questions of belief and law on which no decisive Qur'anic pronouncement is available, such pronouncements as exist being mutually contradictory, which necessitated deduction and reconciliation of contradictions. This occasioned the exercise of individual judgment, which in turn gave rise to a variety of opinions. Undoubtedly some of these opinions were wrong, but it did not follow from this that they were heresies.
The pity of it was that minds enthused by religious fervour and closed by self-righteousness were unable to tolerate differences of opinion and pitched themselves vehemently against all disagreement. The result was that verdicts of unbelief were bandied about, the care exercised in passing them being in inverse proportion to the religious zeal of those who passed them. Things gradually reached such an impasse that every sect took recourse to invented traditions for proving the charge of aberration and deviation against other sects. One of the traditions invented was a prophetic one to the effect that there would arise seventy-three sects in the Muslim ummah, of which only one would be destined for Paradise. In order to fulfill the prophecy seventy-three names of sects were fashioned, along with separate traditions in respect of each of them, i.e., "The Qadriyyah are the Magians of this Ummah."
This intolerant sectarianism rent asunder the fabric of Muslim society, deforming all its features - religion, morals, government, culture, civilization. In the midst of this all-pervading destruction there was only one constructive voice, that of Abu Hanifah, declaring aloud, "Of the people of the Qibla there is none whom we consider an infidel." Not much attention was paid to this declaration at the time, but with the passage of time it found increasing credence, until it became one of the valuable principles of the science a kalam, although it is to be regretted that it was not acted upon very much, so that the din of verdicts of heresy never entirely died down.
The Imam had formed this opinion after much reflection, research and practical experience. He was a contemporary of many famous founders of religious schools and had met almost all of them. The Kharijites had their headquarters at Basra, which was quite close to the Imam's home town. Wasil b. 'Ata' and 'Amr b. 'Ubaid, founders and propagators of the Mu'tazilah, were natives of Basra. Then there was Jahm b. Safwan, after whom the Jahmiyyah sect is known. The Imam had met them and acquainted himself with their ideas. Of the sayings attributed to these sects, some were mere fabrications, some had been misinterpreted and some were absurd without being heretical. It was because of this that the Imam declared all adherents of the Qibla to be believers. He perceived that all the statements which had aroused a furor and which had become the touchstone of faith were mere verbal quibbles and technical jargon. The most vexing question was that of the eternity of the Qur'an, to which people were attaching almost as much importance as to the declaration of divine unity. Many great religious scholars have said that there were two men who saved Islam during extremely critical times, namely, Abu Bakr Siddiq, who exterminated the apostates of Arabia after the Prophet's death, and Ahmad Hanbal, who during the reign of Mamun al-Rashid persisted in denying the createdness of the Qur'an. In fact, Ahmad Hanbal takes precedence because Abu Bakr had the Companions to support him, while Hanbal was alone.
When somebody is described as reliable and authoritative in books of biography, the greatest proof adduced in support of this is that he regarded calling the Qur'an 'created' as unbelief, although this is merely a point of verbal debate. Those who regarded the Qur'an as created and non-eternal had in mind its words and their pronunciation, both of which are articulated by the Prophet and represent the Qur'an to the common people. Those who regarded it as eternal understood it to be the kalam (speech) of God in the sense in which speaking is one of His attributes. There are many statements on this question ascribed to Abu Hanifah, all of them based upon this distinction. For example, answering a question put by a man, he said that Qur'an was non-eternal, because it was not God, and nothing but God is eternal.
To sum up, statements of this kind, not being based upon the text of the Qur'an, cannot be a criterion of faith or lack of faith. The wisdom of Abu Hanifah consists in this: that he prevented the sphere of Islam, whose breadth was described in the words: "Whoever utters the words: 'There is no god but Allah', enters Heaven," from being narrowed down. It is a pity that his opinion was not given due weight. Had it received the consideration it deserved, we should not have heard Ghazali, Muhyi al-Din 'Arabi, the Ghauth al-A'zam, Iban Taimiyyah and Abu Talib Makki described as unbelievers by the fuqaha'. It seems appropriate here to reproduce the text of Al-Fiqh Al-Akbar by Imam Abu Hanifah (r.a.) as this precisely sets out all the main beliefs of the Sunni-Hanafi school of law (madhab).
* This article was based upon excerpts from 'Sirat-al-Numan' which is a biography of the life of Imam Abu Hanifah (r.a.) written by Maulana Shibli Nu'mani (r.a.)

Sunnites, Sunni, Ahl-i Sunnah

{soo' - nights}

General Information
The term Sunnites refers to the great majority of the world's Muslims, distinguishing them as the ahl al - sunna wal - jamaa ("the people of the sunna and the community") from the Shiites. Sunnites are, by this definition, Muslims who strictly follow the sunna (practices) of the Prophet Muhammad and preserve the unity and integrity of the community. Anyone who stands within the mainstream of the Islamic tradition and acts in accordance with generally accepted practices of the community is, therefore, a Sunni. Most Muslims see the sunna as complementary to the Koran insofar as it explains certain points and elaborates some Koranic principles by offering details necessary for the practice of Islamic law.
BELIEVE
Religious
Information
Source
web-site
Our List of 1,300 Religious SubjectsE-mailWillem A Bijlefeld
Bibliography:
I Al Faruqi and L Lamya, The Cultural Atlas of Islam (1986); J L Esposito, Islam and Politics (1984); I M Lapidus, A History of Islamic Societies (1988).
Sunni Islam

General Information

Sunni Islam was defined during the early Abbasid period (beginning in AD 750), and it included the followers of four legal schools (the Malikis, Hanafis, Shafi'is, and Hanbalis). In contrast to the Shias, the Sunnis believed that leadership was in the hands of the Muslim community at large. The consensus of historical communities, not the decisions of political authorities, led to the establishment of the four legal schools. In theory a Muslim could choose whichever school of Islamic thought he or she wished to follow and could change this choice at will. The respect and popularity that the religious scholars enjoyed made them the effective brokers of social power and pitched them against the political authorities.
After the first four caliphs, the religious and political authorities in Islam were never again united under one institution. Their usual coexistence was underscored by a mutual recognition of their separate spheres of influence and their respective duties and responsibilities. Often, however, the two powers collided, and invariably any social opposition to the elite political order had religious undertones.
Ahmad S. Dallal
Sunni Islam

Advanced Information

Doctrines

The Sunni tradition is one of the two main sectarian divisions in Islam (the other being Shi'a). A number of important principles govern the Sunni tradition.

  1. The Prophet and his revelation are of foremost authority.
  2. In order for the Qur'an to be used as a basis for sound judgement for subjects under dispute it is necessary to take sound hadiths into account.
  3. Qur'anic verses should be interpreted in the context of the whole of the Qur'an.
  4. In understanding the Qur'an rational thinking is subordinate to revelation. If the Qur'an or the Sunnah of the Prophet offers a clear judgement on anything, the Muslim is obliged to follow this judgement. If there is no clear judgement about anything in the Qur'an, then it is necessary to make a rational opinion (known as Ijtihad) which is consistent with Qur'anic teaching.
  5. The first four caliphs were the legitimate rulers of the early community.
  6. Faith and deeds are inseparable.
  7. Everything occurs according to the divine plan.
  8. Allah will be seen in the life after death.
The Sunni tradition also emphasises the importance of religion in the formation of public policy. This emphasis has, according to Sunni-Muslim scholars, given rise to two interrelated processes: the supremacy of the Shari'a and the sovereignty of the Islamic community. According to the Sunni tradition, if Islam is a legalistically oriented religion, concerned with the organization of human society, it follows that religious teaching must concern itself with matters of marriage and divorce, inheritance and ownership, commercial transactions and contractual dealings, government, banking, investment, credits, debts and so on. The proper execution of these contractual matters according to the principles of the shari'a based on the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet constitutes an important part of the way to salvation.

History

Islam is divided between the minority Shia tradition and the majority Sunni tradition. The minority group regard the Prophet's Son in law, Ali, and his descendants as divinely authorised to rule the Muslim community. The majority group believed that the caliph should be appointed through the consensus of the community.

The Muslim community's encounter with other cultures, coupled with further divisions in the community itself, brought home the need to formulate the principles of faith within a rational framework. In the 10th century much of the contents of the Muslim community's theology was put into a set of propositions known as Sunni (orthodox) theology. The word Sunni derives from the sunnah, or example, of the Prophet, and indicates the orthodoxy of the majority community as opposed to the peripheral positions of schismatics who by definition must be in error.
A further response to schisms involved developing a trend of accommodation and synthesis. The principle of accommodation made it possible for diverse schools of thought to coexist and recognize each other. Thus, the two principal theological schools of al-Ashari and al-Maturidi accepted each other as orthodox while opposing minority traditions such as Mu'tazilah, Kharijites and Shi'a. The legal framework of the Sunni tradition was provided by the Hanafi, Shafi'i, Maliki and Hanbali schools.
The political leadership of the Sunni community, and therefore the symbol of orthodoxy has been the caliphate. After the first four caliphs the community came under the authority of the Ummayads, who set up their capital in Damascus. The period of the Ummayad caliphs (661-750) saw the conquest of North Africa and Spain. In 732 Muslim armies reached as far as Toulouse in the south-west of France. In the East, Muslim armies arrived in Afghanistan and the region that is present-day Pakistan. In 750 the Ummayad caliph was overthrown in rebellion led by the 'Abbasids, who were to form the next caliphate. Remnants of the Ummayad family, however, were able to establish themselves in Muslim Spain, where they ruled until 1031.
The 'Abbasids established their capital in Baghdad in 750. From then until the 10th century both the Muslim empire and the power of the 'Abbasids continued to grow. However, from the 10th century the empire began to fragment. A rival caliphate, the Fatimids, was established in North Africa. The Mongol invasions and the capture of Baghdad in 1258 brought to an end the caliphate in Iraq. An 'Abbasid caliphate was established in Cairo, but this was without any real political power.
The caliphate was taken over when the Ottomans invaded Egypt in 1517. The defeat of the Ottoman empire after the first world war, and the creation of a secular state in Turkey (which had been at the heart of the Ottoman empire) brought the caliphate to an end. For the first half of the twentieth century many regions of the Islamic world have sought to free themselves from European colonial rule. In the absence of the caliphate a pan-Islamic identity has been sought through organisations such as the Muslim World League and the Islamic Conference. Internal divisions have, however, impeded any real scope for Islamic unity.
Symbols

See Islam.

Adherents

Today Ahl-i Sunna/Sunnism is the madhhab of 90% of all Muslims.

Headquarters / Main Centre

None.

Bülent Þenay
Overview of World Religions Project
General Essay on Sunni Islam

Advanced Information

The Sunni tradition is known in Arabic as the Ahl-i Sunnah (the People of Sunnah), a term which according to the earliest classical sources emerged in the ninth century. The word "Sunnah" means custom, method, path or example and refers particularl y to the example of the prophet Muhammad as found in the Hadith. Thus, the Ahl-i Sunnah are those who follow the tradition of the prophet and his companions in understanding the Islamic faith.
During the early centuries following the death of the Prophet Islamic scholars sought to consolidate and systematize Islamic belief and practice. One of the challenges confronting Muslim scholars was how to determine which of the many thousands of hadith attributed to the Prophet and his companions were authentic. In the ninth century, two scholars, Muhammad b. Isma'il Bukhari (d.870) and Muslim b. al Hajjaj (d. 875), collected and sifted through the vast numbers of traditions in order to compile dictionaries containing the authentic traditions of the Prophet. Basing their decisions on the reliability of the particular transmitters, al Bukhari and al Hajjaj reduced the massive number of traditions to several thousand. In the tenth century these collections were given canonical status by the Muslim community.
In addition to these two collections, four further collections of hadith were compiled by lesser known scholars. While regarded as authentic and canonical by the Ummah, these do not have quite the same status as those of al Bukhari and al Hajjaj.
A second area of Islamic life developed at this time was the Shari 'ah, the regulations and principles upon which Islamic law is based. The four orthodox schools of law - Hanafiyyah, Malikiyyah, Shafi'iyyah and Hanbaliyyah - elaborated the rules of procedure by which particular laws could be determined. These rules were based on the Qur'an and the Sunnah and two legal principles known as qiyas and ijma'. Qiyas is the attempt through analogical reasoning to determine how the principles of the Qur'an and the Sunnah could be applied to a situation not clearly addressed through these sources. An example of such a ruling is the extension of the Qur'anic decree against market activities during the Friday congregational prayers to a general prohibition of all business activities at this time.
Ijma', meaning consensus, was based on the principle that when no clear guidance was given by the Qur'an or the Sunnah on a principle of law the consensus of the community would be sought. All four schools accept these principles as the basis of the Shari 'ah and regard each other as orthodox. They differ with regard to the particular importance each school attaches to qiyas and ijma' relative to the Qur'an and the Sunnah.
Concomitant with the systematization of the Shari'ah was the establishment of theological orthodoxy. The encounter with non-Islamic beliefs and the emergence of deviant theological views within the community itself provided the impetus for the formation of an orthodox theology. The first major challenge to Islam from within came from the Kharijiyyah, who claimed that good works as well as the profession of faith were necessary to be a true Muslim. Those who sinned without repenting forfeited their right to belong to the community of believers. Such was their strength of feeling on this issue that they violently persecuted those who disagreed with him.
The issue of the relationship between faith and works was taken up by a second group, the Mu'tazilah, who argued that the non-repentant sinner occupied a middle state between belief and non-belief. Although endeavouring to defend Islam against Hellenistic philosophy, the Mu'tazilah drew upon Hellenistic ideas in formulating their understanding of God and the relationship between God and humanity. For the Mu'tazilah, all anthropomorphic language about God was to be interpreted as purely metaphorical. Furthermore, in order to preserve the doctrine of human freedom and responsibility, God's action was interpreted in terms of necessity and duty rather than freedom. It was the denial of God's absolute freedom that was a source of concern to mainstrea m Islamic thinkers.
In reaction to the Mu'tazilah doctrine, two theological schools emerged in the tenth century: Ash'ariyyah and Maturidiyyah. Both schools endeavoured to elevate revelation and reduce reason as the means by which humanity acquires a knowledge of God. By arguing that there were certain truths about the nature of God which were not accessible to human reason alone these schools sought to restore the doctrine of divine omnipotence.
The establishment of broadly based forms of jurisprudential and theological orthodoxy during its early history has not prevented the emergence of anti-orthodox tendencies in more recent times. In the eighteenth century a group known as *******yyah emerged with the purpose of "purifying" Islam of non-Islamic accretions such as the worship of the saints. Integral to this project was the attempt to base Islamic law solely on the Qur'an and the Sunnah through the rejection of qiyas and ijma' as elements within the Shari 'ah. A second, unrelated group, Ahmadiyyah, was founded in India towards the end of the nineteenth century. Its leader, Mirza Ghulam Ahamd, claimed to be the Christian Messiah, the Mahdi, an avatar of Krishna and a reappearance of Muhammad. In spite of being declared heretical by the orthodox Muslim community this group has spread beyond India into other parts of Asia and from there to Europe and Africa.
Bülent Þenay
Overview of World Religions Project
Bibliography:
Al-Azmeh, Aziz (ed.) Islamic Law: Social and Historical Contexts. London: Routledge, 1988.
Clarke, Peter. West Africa and Islam: a Study of Religious Development from the 8th to the 20th Century. E. Arnold, 1982.
Enayat, Hamid. Modern Islamic Political Thought: The Response of the Shi'i and Sunni Muslims to the Twentieth Century. New York: Macmillan, 1982.
Gibb, H.A.R. Islam: A Historical Survey. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1953.
Hasan, A. The Early Development of Islamic Jurisprudence. Islamabad: Islamic Research Institute, 1970.
Hodgson, Marshall G.S. The Venture of Islam. Chicago: Chicago University Press, 1974.
Martin, Richard C. Islam: A Cultural Perspective. Prentice Hall, 1982.
Rahman, Fazlur. Islam. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979.
Rippin, Andrew. Muslims: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices. Vol 1: The Formative Period. London: Routledge, 1990.
Watt, W.M. The Formative Period of Islamic Thought. Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press, 1973.
Wolfson, H.A. The Philosophy of the Kalam. Cambridge Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1976.
The four accepted legal schools of Sunnis are:

  • Hanafites Abu Hanifa (d. 767), was the founder of the Hanafi school. He was born in Iraq. His school is considered to have more reason and logic than the other schools. Muslims of India and Turkey follow this school.
    Hanafi School
  • Malikites Malik ibn Abbas (d. 795) developed his ideas in Medina, where he apparently knew one of the last surviving companions of the Prophet. His doctrine is recorded in the Muwatta which has been adopted by most Muslims of Africa except in Lower Egypt, Zanzibar and South Africa.
    The Maliki legal school is the branch of Sunni that dominates in nearly all of Africa, except Egypt, the 'Horn' area and the East Coast countries.
    Maliki School
  • Shafi'ites Al-Shafi'i (d. 820) was considered a moderate in most areas. He taught in Iraq and then in Egypt. Present Muslims in Indonesia, Lower Egypt, Malaysia, and Yemen follow this school. He placed great emphasis on the sunna of the Prophet, as embodied in the Hadith, as a source of the sharia.
    Shafi'i School
  • Hanbalites Ahmad ibn Hanbal (d. 855) was born in Baghdad. He learned extensively from al-Shafi'i. Despite persecution, he held to the doctrine that the Koran was uncreated. Modern *******s of Saudi Arabia apparently follow this school.
    Hanbali School
These four schools are somewhat different from each other, but Sunni Muslims generally consider them all equally valid.
Reply

Grace Seeker
12-16-2006, 03:12 AM
Abu Hanifah does not consider the manner to have been prescribed strictly. For example, he thinks that the takbir-i-tahrimah (the formula of glorification of God = Allahu Akbar) can be uttered in words other than Allahu Akbar which have the same meaning, e.g., Allahu A'zam or Allahu Ajall. Shafi'i thinks that it cannot. Abu Hanifah even maintains that it is permissible to say the takbir in Persian. Shafi'i on the other hand, holds that this invalidates the prayer. According to Abu Hanifah, the duty of qira'at can be performed by reciting any ayat of the Qur'an, while according to Shafi'i, it can be performed only by reciting the Surat al-Fatihah. In Abu Hanifah's opinion, a person incapable of reciting the Qur'an in Arabic may recite it in some other language, but Shafi'i rules that out as impermissible.
Still reading, but already I like the way Abu Hanifah thinks.
Reply

schoolmaster54
12-25-2006, 05:48 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Still reading, but already I like the way Abu Hanifah thinks.

Have you finished reading, brother? I wonder how you feel about my sect!
Reply

Skillganon
12-25-2006, 06:03 AM
Originally Posted by schoolmaster54
Have you finished reading, brother? I wonder how you feel about my sect!
Assalamu alaikum.

and when did it become a sect :?

That is a misnomer.

It is a "school of thought", not a dogma.

Apart from that that was one long post!!
Reply

schoolmaster54
12-25-2006, 06:07 AM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
and when did it become a sect :?

That is a misnomer.

It is a "school of thought", not a dogma.

Apart from that that was one long post!!

What do you mean? Can you speak more clearly? There are four sectarians in Ahl-i Sunnah.
Reply

Skillganon
12-25-2006, 06:20 AM
Originally Posted by schoolmaster54
What do you mean? Can you speak more clearly? There are four sectarians in Ahl-i Sunnah.
The sect is not an entirely correct usage as this very well imply you are a sect of Islam, like the Qadianis e.t.c

If you wan't to understand the Madhab's you have to understand the position of the scholarss of those four school of thought's.

Anyway you can read this.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503543960
Reply

Skillganon
12-25-2006, 06:26 AM
Asslamu alaikum.

I added this for you to read: I am glad this forum had it.

http://www.islamicboard.com/biograph...lars-past.html
Reply

schoolmaster54
12-25-2006, 09:14 AM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
The sect is not an entirely correct usage as this very well imply you are a sect of Islam, like the Qadianis e.t.c

If you wan't to understand the Madhab's you have to understand the position of the scholarss of those four school of thought's.

Anyway you can read this.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503543960

Thank you brother. I meant School of Islamic (Judical System) Fiqh as you meant. Thank you for your kind passionate remind. I'll see your personal page and the other Islamic rasource (Fatwa Bank ). It is very useful for us, muslims. Human is really illiterate and bloody-minded.
Wassalam.
Reply

Grace Seeker
12-31-2006, 12:52 AM
Originally Posted by schoolmaster54
Have you finished reading, brother? I wonder how you feel about my sect!
Yes. I have finished reading.

I have to say I am confused by one aspect. It isn't a problem with Islam or any subgroup within it per se. The problem is with one of the oft repeated criticims of Christianity given what is also seen as key to belief and practice in Islam.

The oft repeated criticism of Christianity is that we don't have preserved for us Jesus' actual message. Rather we have the reports made by others. Now I have never had a problem with that, but many in Islam have. Yet, on the other hand, there seems to be no problem, as this articile testifies, with canonizing the hadith of the Prophet (pbuh). Thus every thing the prophet (pbuh) did and said, even when he wasn't reciting the Qu'ran, has become a standard of Islamic faith. And not just the prophet (pbuh), but also the lives of his companions are seen as authoritative standards by which to make interpretations regarding one's faith. If this be so, unless you are one who believes they were a complete invention (more fiction than anything else) by some group of second century Christians, how can there be raised any serious objection regarding the original accounts of Jesus' life and ministry?

I know that question would probably be better suited to a thread on the comparative religion board, but when I read those parts about the importance of the Sunnah and the hadith, it just struck me who so many reject as valid the same thing in my faith that Islam has made cannonical for itself.

As to your actually question, how do I feel about your "sect" (for lack of a better word) or school of Islamic Fiqh? I very much respect it. And appreciate the opportunity to read about it in detail.
Reply

hamidah
12-31-2006, 08:08 PM
salamz...
its really cool to kno other language my granpa was frm turkey Mursal village
Reply

schoolmaster54
01-03-2007, 09:42 PM
Originally Posted by hamidah
salamz...
its really cool to kno other language my granpa was frm turkey Mursal village

Would you like to learn Turkish, sister?
Reply

Grace Seeker
01-04-2007, 04:45 AM
Originally Posted by schoolmaster54
Would you like to learn Turkish, sister?
A mother mouse and a baby mouse are walking along, when all
of a sudden, a cat attacks them. The mother mouse yells,
"BARK! BARK!" "Bow-wow!" and the cat runs away.

"See?" says the mother mouse to her baby. "Now do you
understand why it's important to learn a foreign language?"
Reply

Diesel1907
01-04-2007, 06:42 AM
I know some turkish also.
Reply

schoolmaster54
01-04-2007, 10:02 AM
Originally Posted by hamidah
salamz...
its really cool to kno other language my granpa was frm turkey Mursal village
In what city is Mursel Village, Sister? I live in Ankara.
Reply

abdil han
01-04-2007, 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by schoolmaster54
In what city is Mursel Village, Sister? I live in Ankara.
salam all,

karamursel i think...
Reply

Grace Seeker
01-04-2007, 06:33 PM
No one laughed at my joke above. I'm dissappointed. I thought at least one person would find it funny.:-[
Reply

SUMMAYAH
01-04-2007, 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by Guli7
but cok sukur I have everything here in America. I have everything going for me. My parents worked and are putting me through college. I will try to find a job. I can't complain.
Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that this guy is swearing? Or is it a turkish word? where are the mods?
Reply

abdil han
01-04-2007, 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
No one laughed at my joke above. I'm dissappointed. I thought at least one person would find it funny.:-[
hi!
i just saw ur nice joke,,it was very nice n funny:D

maybe the others didnt see it yet,,,

hey ,,
look above ,,right now!!
Reply

abdil han
01-04-2007, 06:48 PM
Originally Posted by SUMMAYAH
Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that this guy is swearing? Or is it a turkish word? where are the mods?
she is not swearing sister,,,relax,,its a turkish word means thank God,or alhamdulillah,,,
Reply

SUMMAYAH
01-04-2007, 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by abdil han
she is not swearing sister,,,relax,,its a turkish word means thank God,or alhamdulillah,,,
Ok sorry, I don't have a very good mind. I'm so embarrased!
Reply

netprince
01-04-2007, 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by SUMMAYAH
Ok sorry, I don't have a very good mind. I'm so embarrased!
Dont be embarassed and read the joke again instead :D

A mother mouse and a baby mouse are walking along, when all
of a sudden, a cat attacks them. The mother mouse yells,
"BARK! BARK!" "Bow-wow!" and the cat runs away.

"See?" says the mother mouse to her baby. "Now do you
understand why it's important to learn a foreign language?"
Reply

schoolmaster54
01-04-2007, 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by abdil han
salam all,

karamursel i think...

Do you know Hamidah?
Reply

abdil han
01-04-2007, 09:57 PM
Originally Posted by schoolmaster54
Do you know Hamidah?
no,i dont know her
Reply

schoolmaster54
01-05-2007, 06:14 AM
Originally Posted by abdil han
no,i dont know her

How do you know Karamürsel? Are you from Turkey?
Reply

abdil han
01-05-2007, 08:09 AM
Originally Posted by schoolmaster54
How do you know Karamürsel? Are you from Turkey?
yes bro,i m turk,,
Reply

schoolmaster54
01-05-2007, 08:17 AM
Originally Posted by abdil han
yes bro,i m turk,,

So am I. Nice to meet you. Let's teach Turkish here.
Reply

abdil han
01-08-2007, 04:27 PM
Originally Posted by schoolmaster54
So am I. Nice to meet you. Let's teach Turkish here.
nice to meet you too bro..

i d do my best but i dont have o much time be coz of my work...but i can help you...

take care well ,,

Allah a emanet olasın
Reply

axess1907
01-10-2007, 09:29 PM
I am turkish..

ben türküm...
Reply

dostpost
01-12-2007, 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by axess1907
I am turkish..

ben türküm...

hacim ben de Türk'üm ama ne olur Türk'ün ilk harfini büyük yaz. ben buna özellikle dikkat ediyorum. diger ülkelerin adlarini da özellikle kücük yaziyorum. Kücük etkiler büyük sonuclar yaratir.



Bu arada cennet vatanimin neresinde oturuyorsun? bide gavurcasini yazyim digerleri de anlasin. Where do you live in Turkey?

duzeltme: almanya bavyerada oturuyormussun :D

tschüss o zaman
Reply

Al-Zaara
01-12-2007, 04:41 PM
:sl:

Turkish is so beautiful. One of my fave languages...

I just wish I understood it better. Care to translate your last post bro mustklc? :D
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dostpost
01-12-2007, 05:17 PM
Originally Posted by Al-Zaara
:sl:

Turkish is so beautiful. One of my fave languages...

I just wish I understood it better. Care to translate your last post bro mustklc? :D
sorry , it is just an unnecessary dialog, so i dindt translate first. translation is below:


i am a Turkish too but please write the first letter of "Turk" as capital letter. i am careful on it. you shoul be careful on it like me.
(It is an important rule in Turkish grammar, the first letter of "Turk, Turkish, Turkey" must be capital letter)


anyway where do you live in my heaven homeland?

Edit: You live in Germany - Bavyeria :D

tschuss is german, means "see you"
Reply

kudusyolu
01-12-2007, 05:46 PM
www.kudusyolu.com

takip etmeyi unutmayın
Reply

dostpost
01-13-2007, 12:07 PM
Originally Posted by kudusyolu
www.kudusyolu.com

takip etmeyi unutmayın

did you design the site yourself or use a cms like joomla? it has nice look.:D
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Skillganon
01-13-2007, 12:13 PM
actually it is quite a good site.
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dostpost
01-14-2007, 10:46 AM
Our Chief : Mustafa Kemal Ataturk

He leaded a great war against imperialist states like England, France and Italia.

In this foto, he was with 32 kings and 62 presidents and he has the most charismatic look . am i wrong??

Reply

cihad
02-01-2007, 10:08 AM
i don't like ataturk!
even tho i am turkish
he took islam away from the turkish ppl- i heard that nowadays you arn't even allowed into a public library with a scarf- so much for freedom!!!
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-01-2007, 02:41 PM
Originally Posted by cihad
i don't like ataturk!
even tho i am turkish
he took islam away from the turkish ppl- i heard that nowadays you arn't even allowed into a public library with a scarf- so much for freedom!!!
You "heard". I take it that you don't presently live in Turkey. Where do you live? Were you born or raised in Turkey?
Reply

Al-Zaara
02-03-2007, 11:42 AM
:sl: and greetings,

A really nice site about interesting places and stuff in Turkey:

e.g. Sanli Urfa, known as the City of Prophets; Noahs Ark; Birthplace of St.Paul etc.

http://www.adiyamanli.org/turkey_arke.html
Reply

abdil han
03-15-2007, 07:36 PM
selam ,,,
kimse uğramıyor buraya anladığım kadarıyla,,,

neyse sağlıcakla kalın kardeşler,

vesselam
Reply

abdil han
03-15-2007, 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by cihad
i don't like ataturk!
even tho i am turkish
he took islam away from the turkish ppl- i heard that nowadays you arn't even allowed into a public library with a scarf- so much for freedom!!!
salam bro,,

yea,thats right,its not allowed ...

about atatürk,
he did some good ,some bad,,,
i dont like some of his deeds...this is true,,but at least he fought for this country....

vesselam
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-16-2007, 01:18 AM
I think it is allowed. My daughter works in a library in Istanbul. She doesn't usually wear a scarf, but she does occassionally. Her mother does all the time. She couldn't wear it to class at school, but she could in the library.
Reply

aysenil
03-16-2007, 12:03 PM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
eerrr, how you say "where have you been?"

Actually I am asking the question to the brother's from Turkey. Where are all the Turkish sisters?
i am here brothers and sister to help u inshaAllah.
ur Turkish sister frm Turkey. :)
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-16-2007, 12:36 PM
I think this is an easy question, but I really struggle with possessive constructions.

How do you say:
I am going to the house.
I am going to his house.
I am going to my house.
I am going to my wife's house.
I am going to my brother's house.
I am going to my wife's brother's house.
I am going to my brother-in-law's house.

(If you would please, I want to see each of the different sentences even if they don't make logical sense, so that I can learn the difference ways the sentence is made.)

Tesekkur ederim.
Reply

xx-Asha!!-xx
03-16-2007, 05:02 PM
Sup? i ent Turkish but evry1 eg. frends and ppl outa skool are always askn me weda im turkish...is it evn possible to luk turkish???
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-16-2007, 06:19 PM
Originally Posted by xx-Asha!!-xx
Sup? i ent Turkish but evry1 eg. frends and ppl outa skool are always askn me weda im turkish...is it evn possible to luk turkish???
Certainly. Turkish men are rugged and handsome. Turkish women are among the most beautiful in the world. If everyone thinks you are Turkish you must be exceptionally beautiful.
Reply

abdil han
03-16-2007, 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I think this is an easy question, but I really struggle with possessive constructions.

How do you say:
I am going to the house.
I am going to his house.
I am going to my house.
I am going to my wife's house.
I am going to my brother's house.
I am going to my wife's brother's house.
I am going to my brother-in-law's house.

(If you would please, I want to see each of the different sentences even if they don't make logical sense, so that I can learn the difference ways the sentence is made.)

Tesekkur ederim.
Hi,,
hope u r fine Grace Seeker,

here you go;
I am going to the house. ''Eve gidiyorum,
I am going to his house. ''(onun)Evine gidiyorum,
I am going to my house. ''Evime gidiyorum,
I am going to my wife's house. ''Karımın(eşimin) evine gidiyorum,
I am going to my brother's house. ''Kardeşimin evine gidiyorum,
I am going to my wife's brother's house. ''Karımın(eşimin) erkek kardeşinin evine gidiyorum,I am going to my brother-in-law's house.''Kayın biraderimin evine gidiyorum,

you are welcome...:)

peace on you
Reply

abdil han
03-16-2007, 06:34 PM
Originally Posted by xx-Asha!!-xx
Sup? i ent Turkish but evry1 eg. frends and ppl outa skool are always askn me weda im turkish...is it evn possible to luk turkish???
i guess so,,

i am working as a tourist guide in istanbul and i can realize almost every tourist from where they are,,so other people can do the same,,,

by the way where r u from sister?
we turks are quite similar with italians,greeks,polish, n so... (i mean Turkiye turks,,, Kazaks,Turkmens,Uzbeks are little different,,like mongols or chinese,,,the main reason is we ve been living here in Turkiye for hundreds of years and i think we mixed with mediterranians)

anyway,,,

salam:)
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-16-2007, 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by abdil han
i am working as a tourist guide in istanbul

Good. Then you might be able to help me make a decision. Do you think that it is better for a person who is going to be visiting family not only in Istanbul, but also friends in the interior to rent a car or depend on public transportation?

I know Istanbul has terrible traffic and I have never seen it in person. But I am continually worned about such and such a place having terrible traffic and yet I have successfully driven in all of America and Canada's largest cities, plus in much of Mexico and Chile.
Reply

abdil han
03-16-2007, 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Good. Then you might be able to help me make a decision. Do you think that it is better for a person who is going to be visiting family not only in Istanbul, but also friends in the interior to rent a car or depend on public transportation?

I know Istanbul has terrible traffic and I have never seen it in person. But I am continually worned about such and such a place having terrible traffic and yet I have successfully driven in all of America and Canada's largest cities, plus in much of Mexico and Chile.
i need to know in which interior cities are they? public transportation is better for foreigners,,but also you can drive easily in Turkiye,,(except istanbul,its not that hard to drive)...

about the traffic of istanbul,,its awful,,i never wanna drive here,,,better to use tram ,metro etc in ths city,,but u can rent a car to go further,,,

bye
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-16-2007, 10:51 PM
Düzce, Kaynaşlı, and Mersin.

But it sounds like you're saying that I want to avoid renting a car in Istanbul, even if I am going to rent one for the rest of my time. hmmmm??

So, if I've already got the rental car for the rest of my stay, are you still recommending not driving in Istanbul? My daughter lives near Anadolu Hisari and of course we would be spending time with her, with a "niece" who lives next to Boğaziçi Univesity, and wanting to also play the role of tourist in the city's center. Aslı doesn't have a car and just always uses the bus, but my wife has suffered a stroke and is unable to walk distances of more than two or three blocks. So, I wasn't sure if the bus would always work for us. Maybe we would be better off with taking taxis even at their extreme expense?
Reply

dream gurl
03-16-2007, 10:54 PM
hold up i took 1 months class of turkish

i still remeber few words

adan ne? doesnt dat mean how r u
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-16-2007, 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by dream gurl
hold up i took 1 months class of turkish

i still remeber few words

adan ne? doesnt dat mean how r u

Üzgünüm, dream gurl, ama hayır. İsteyorun "Nasılsun?".

"Adan ne?" means "What is your name?", if I remember correctly. I've never studied Turkish. I wish I could find a local college that offered it. Where did you study?
Reply

dream gurl
03-16-2007, 11:28 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Üzgünüm, dream gurl, ama hayır. İsteyorun "Nasılsun?".

"Adan ne?" means "What is your name?", if I remember correctly. I've never studied Turkish. I wish I could find a local college that offered it. Where did you study?
oh yeah i freashin my mind it does mean what is ur name cuz dat was gonna be my second guess well i tooked it in a high school dat offer it , it was kinda of ez cuz it sounds like a mix of arab and hindi
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-16-2007, 11:45 PM
Originally Posted by dream gurl
oh yeah i freashin my mind it does mean what is ur name cuz dat was gonna be my second guess well i tooked it in a high school dat offer it , it was kinda of ez cuz it sounds like a mix of arab and hindi
LOL. A mix of Arabic and Hindi would hardly make it easy for me, as I don't speak either of them.

Hablo español un poco. ¿Y tú?
Reply

abdil han
03-18-2007, 01:34 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Düzce, Kaynaşlı, and Mersin.

But it sounds like you're saying that I want to avoid renting a car in Istanbul, even if I am going to rent one for the rest of my time. hmmmm??

So, if I've already got the rental car for the rest of my stay, are you still recommending not driving in Istanbul? My daughter lives near Anadolu Hisari and of course we would be spending time with her, with a "niece" who lives next to Boğaziçi Univesity, and wanting to also play the role of tourist in the city's center. Aslı doesn't have a car and just always uses the bus, but my wife has suffered a stroke and is unable to walk distances of more than two or three blocks. So, I wasn't sure if the bus would always work for us. Maybe we would be better off with taking taxis even at their extreme expense?
Hi,

yes i meant that,,
but the area, where ur daughter lives, is quite beter than city center,,so if u wanna rent (or if u need) a car,its better to drive at weekends,,and also early in the days n late times are better(till 8am n after 8pm)...public transportation is not so good for you i guess,,be coz you ll need to walk a couple hundreds of meters all the time,,,.

by the way,taxi drivers dont take customers for short distances,,i know its rediculus but this is what they do...

anyway,,its ur choice :)

enjoy ur vacation with ur family in turkiye...

peace all..
Reply

Name3
04-02-2007, 09:03 AM
Hi there... It is not "Adan ne?", let's correct as "Adın ne?" and it means "What is your name?". Trust me, cause I am a Turk.

And eve if you wonder, "How are you?" means "Nasılsın?"...

Any other question ? :)
Reply

Grace Seeker
04-20-2007, 03:04 PM
Can anyone tell me about the killing, earlier this week, of some Christian workers (I think it was 3) in a Bible bookstore in Eastern Turkey?

I may not even have all those details correct as it was something I read in online blog and I know them to be extremely inaccurate.
Reply

yigiter187
04-20-2007, 03:10 PM
By Seyhmus Cakan

DIYARBAKIR, Turkey, April 18 (Reuters) - Attackers slit the throats of three people, including a German, at a Turkish Bible publisher's on Wednesday, officials said, the latest attack on minorities in mainly Muslim Turkey.

The victims were found with their hands and feet bound, said Halil Ibrahim Dasoz, governor of the southeastern province of Malatya where the attack occurred.

Four people were detained in connection with the attack and one person, who fell from the building and was considered a suspect, was taken to hospital with head trauma, he said.

German Ambassador Eckart ****z said a German was among the dead.

The killings come as political tensions rise between the powerful secular elite, including army generals and judges, and the religious-minded AK Party government over next month's presidential elections.

Television pictures showed police wrestling one man to the ground and leading several men -- apparently in their teens -- out of the building.

A wave of nationalism has swept the secular but predominantly Sunni Muslim country over the past year.

This year Armenian-Turkish editor Hrant Dink was shot dead by an ultranationalist youth. Dink was also from Malatya.

A historic visit to Turkey by Pope Benedict last year was prefaced by protests in Istanbul and followed a rise in violence against Christian clergy.



THREATS

For many Turkish nationalists, Christian missionaries are seen as enemies of Turkey working to undermine its political and religious institutions.

The government and other officials in Turkey have criticised Christian missionary work while the European Union, which Turkey hopes to join, has called for more freedom for the tiny Christian minority.

"We would like a government campaign to get rid of the myths, such as that missionaries are trying to divide the country, these are the things which feed such acts," said Carlos Madrigal, an evangelical pastor who knew the victims and said they were also evangelical protestants.

"In some ways the situation has improved because we have got legal rights ... but there are parts of society which have become radicalised," Madrigal, whose Istanbul church has police protection since the Dink murder, told Reuters.

An official from the publishing house told local television that they had received threats over its publications.

"It's too early to say but the attack appears to be the work of Islamists," said Gareth Jenkins, an Istanbul-based expert on Turkish security matters.

"There are generally a lot of threats against Christians in Turkey, primarily against Turkish converts."

He said one of the last serious attack against Turkish Christians was in 1997 when the then-active Islamist Vasat movement bombed a bible book stand in the southeast, killing one child and injuring dozens.

Early last year an Italian priest was shot dead -- also by a youth -- in the Black Sea port of Trabzon which coincided with worldwide protests over cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad. (Additional reporting by Daren Butler, Mustafa Yukselbaba, Paul de Bendern, Emma Ross
Reply

yigiter187
04-20-2007, 03:12 PM
ı took this from reuters...this is totally the work of dark powers that want to show turkey as an enemy of christianity....
Reply

Grace Seeker
04-20-2007, 05:48 PM
Thank-you.


Every country has its own share of idiots. I know that both as a people and as a nation that Turkey is no more against Christianity than the USA is against Islam. Of course, you will find radicalized people of every stripe around the globe, and whenever people feel marganilized, threatened, or their position co-opted they become more dangerous and more likely to act out. I am sorry to see that there is an increase of these feelings in Turkey, not so much for myself -- a Christian living in the USA-- but for my many dear friends who live there in Turkey. They too are Muslim, and I would not want others to think of them as being at all like those who have acted in this horrible way.

May Allah guide you all to find a way to be at peace again.
Reply

yigiter187
04-20-2007, 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Thank-you.


Every country has its own share of idiots. I know that both as a people and as a nation that Turkey is no more against Christianity than the USA is against Islam. Of course, you will find radicalized people of every stripe around the globe, and whenever people feel marganilized, threatened, or their position co-opted they become more dangerous and more likely to act out. I am sorry to see that there is an increase of these feelings in Turkey, not so much for myself -- a Christian living in the USA-- but for my many dear friends who live there. They too are Muslim, and I would not want others to think of them as being at all like those who have acted in this horrible way.

May Allah guide you all to find a way to be at peace again.
murderers are most probably provoked to do this...they think that they killed three for islam but they dont know islam truely...because killing even an ant is a very big sin in islam...everyone has the right to tell his religion ın every country...
may ALLAH PROTECT ALL HUMANİTY FROM THOSE BAD WİLD PEOPLE
Reply

shev
05-16-2007, 09:41 AM
Slm,
I'm an english teacher but because our religion teacher went to another city I have given religion lesson to 6th grade students. And I see that families don't give logic religion lessons. I mean that don't give reason why they have to prey or why they musn't sin.
and also I want to tell about an anecdote. Our subjects was holly books. and told students that we should be respectfull to all 4 books, because we believe in 4 of them but we don't read bible because we believe that it has been changed, but there may a word that hasn't been changed. So that word is God's word.
And one of my sts asked ma'm 'is it sin if we tear and jump on a bible'
and I asked ' would you like to see anyone tear and jump on Qur'an?' ' you don't have to believe in other people's holy things but you have to respect them if you want them to respect your holly things.'
he blushed and said he'll never do a such an action again.
Reply

abdil han
05-16-2007, 10:21 AM
a.slm sister,

thats true what u ve just said,
unfortunately we have many problems in education especially...

but u said well to that boy...:)

may Allah guide us all inshaAllah..amin..

wassalam
Reply

shev
05-16-2007, 01:36 PM
slm,
thanks. I think no one has told that boy to do it. but also no one has told him not to do it. You may know they asks lokman hekim or hasan basri I'm not sure " how did u learn morral" he says " from those who are immoral"
a.slm
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-16-2007, 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by shev
Slm,
I'm an english teacher but because our religion teacher went to another city I have given religion lesson to 6th grade students. And I see that families don't give logic religion lessons. I mean that don't give reason why they have to prey or why they musn't sin.
and also I want to tell about an anecdote. Our subjects was holly books. and told students that we should be respectfull to all 4 books, because we believe in 4 of them but we don't read bible because we believe that it has been changed, but there may a word that hasn't been changed. So that word is God's word.
And one of my sts asked ma'm 'is it sin if we tear and jump on a bible'
and I asked ' would you like to see anyone tear and jump on Qur'an?' ' you don't have to believe in other people's holy things but you have to respect them if you want them to respect your holly things.'
he blushed and said he'll never do a such an action again.

You are a wise teacher.



Some things that you may or may not be aware of that are purely cultural, and not directly related to Christianity as a religious belief.

Many Christians will treat their Bibles differently than Muslim would treat the Qur'an. Christians will often mark and write in their Bibles. We do this not out of disrespect, but out of love for it. Much like a student with a text book, a Christian who studies his Bible often will have all sorts of notes written in the margin to remind him of how he sees certain verses applying to his own life. So, if you see a Christian doing that with a Qur'an, just be aware that it isn't out of disrepsect, but because they are studying it seriously and may not be aware of how doing so would come across to a Muslim.

And then there are what I call Christian fruitcakes. I once actually saw a Christian woman jumping up and down on her Bible in the middle of a college campus. I asked her what she was doing and why, and she told me that she wanted the whole world to know where she stood and she was standing on the word of God. (A colloquialism, not usually meant to be taken literally.) After doing so for some time, she said that she felt so overpowered by the Holy Spirit that she just had to jump for Jesus, and that is what I caught her in the midst of doing. Strange world we live in. It takes all kinds to make it go round.
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