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Knut Hamsun
03-20-2006, 09:46 PM
Really interesting story.


http://www7.naseeb.com/naseebvibes/p...163bca5100209a
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abdul Majid
03-20-2006, 10:02 PM
interesting
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Knut Hamsun
03-20-2006, 10:10 PM
Hello Mr. Majid!
We got shut down last night, didn't we? :D
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abdul Majid
03-20-2006, 10:14 PM
lollol, yea man hows everything
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Knut Hamsun
03-20-2006, 10:29 PM
Everything is good, Abdul.

I hope you liked this article. I am proud of these Muslims for going and trying to make life better for some other people. More than most people do, you know? Most people just sit around and complain (me, too), but these people really wanted to help their country and the muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan. I think that is admirable.
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abdul Majid
03-20-2006, 10:35 PM
Originally Posted by Knut Hamsun
Everything is good, Abdul.

I hope you liked this article. I am proud of these Muslims for going and trying to make life better for some other people. More than most people do, you know? Most people just sit around and complain (me, too), but these people really wanted to help their country and the muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan. I think that is admirable.

hamsun you know, your right people sit around all day and complain and dont do nothing about anything....(im not targeting anyone by saying that)....you know something people always wanna critisize someone else, but in reality we do not know the intention of the other person, only GOD knows, and you cannot stop someone from doing something, unless GOD wills....just as you cannot guide anyone to a religion unless God wills, becuase GOD is our only guidence.....but i beleive fighting, for a country or flag is not exceptable, unless its for the sake of GOD, ones self defense, protecting ones wealth and family.......

peace to you....
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hamzaa
03-20-2006, 10:36 PM
Peace,

Sad state of affairs....
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Knut Hamsun
03-20-2006, 10:42 PM
Why is that sad, hamzaa?
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north_malaysian
03-21-2006, 06:59 AM
How about Muslim Bedouins and Circassians serving in Israeli Defence Force?:rollseyes
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Knut Hamsun
03-21-2006, 09:27 PM
How about Muslim Bedouins and Circassians serving in Israeli Defence Force?
That is a pretty extreme analogy. I think some American muslims realize and respect the freedom in which they live (relative to many other countries, mind you--no one lives in a vaccum). Instead of sitting back and complaining, these young people thought they could help more people by going to Iraq than sitting on their couch. And another thing, not all muslims ignore their legal nationality (in this case American). Many see the many contradictions inherent in the psychology of "one ummah" while living in a country that affords you a full right of belief and peaceful practices thereof.
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renak
03-22-2006, 01:58 AM
I'll throw out another controversial twist....

My Iraqi boyfriend, who is in the USA on a work visa, is trying his hardest to convince his employer that he needs to join the US Army. He feels indebted to the Americans, and thinks that his military service will somehow prove his gratitude. He does not see conflict in being muslim and serving in the US military.
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itsme01
03-22-2006, 02:15 AM
Originally Posted by renak
I'll throw out another controversial twist....

My Iraqi boyfriend, who is in the USA on a work visa, is trying his hardest to convince his employer that he needs to join the US Army. He feels indebted to the Americans, and thinks that his military service will somehow prove his gratitude. He does not see conflict in being muslim and serving in the US military.
Thats great, but serving for an Army that lied, invaded, and has commited various humanitarian attrocities...i am not quite sure then if its the right choice.

For example: I would not mind joining Canadian Army, cuz we do peacekeeping instead of invading and claiming innocent lifes.

To prove Gratitude, one may do it in another fashion rather than joining army. Such as helping the poor, elderly, educating illiterate people, basically helping communities.
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renak
03-22-2006, 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by itsme01
Thats great, but serving for an Army that lied, invaded, and has commited various humanitarian attrocities...i am not quite sure then if its the right choice.

For example: I would not mind joining Canadian Army, cuz we do peacekeeping instead of invading and claiming innocent lifes.

To prove Gratitude, one may do it in another fashion rather than joining army. Such as helping the poor, elderly, educating illiterate people, basically helping communities.
He doesn't view the US military in a negative manner. He feels that there were far more attrocities prior to the US invasion. He and his Iraqi friends are all grateful for the US presense in Iraq, and consider the spoils of war as a necessary evil.

I tend to be less supportive of the US occupation in Iraq. However, it is hard for me to argue with actual Iraqi's who experienced Iraq prior to occupation, and during occupation.
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cleo
03-22-2006, 02:39 AM
Originally Posted by itsme01
Thats great, but serving for an Army that lied, invaded, and has commited various humanitarian attrocities...i am not quite sure then if its the right choice.

For example: I would not mind joining Canadian Army, cuz we do peacekeeping instead of invading and claiming innocent lifes.

To prove Gratitude, one may do it in another fashion rather than joining army. Such as helping the poor, elderly, educating illiterate people, basically helping communities.
You are so right. Helping the poor, elderly, etc., is the right and proper road to take. I agree so very much.
The war is not fighting for your freedom, it is fighting for the evil policies.
Today, President Bush said, "The only way to have peace, is to have tyranny." This was broadcast at the News Conference. The sick mind has come to roost. Time to take care of each other....:hiding:
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abdul Majid
03-22-2006, 02:41 AM
:statisfie
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north_malaysian
03-22-2006, 03:05 AM
Army should serve the country or serve an idiot president?:rollseyes
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renak
03-22-2006, 03:11 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Army should serve the country or serve an idiot president?:rollseyes

If you're in the US military, it is just your duty to serve, regardless of your convictions. Being that the president is the commander in chief, you have to serve him, regardless of if it is in your countries best interest.
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north_malaysian
03-22-2006, 03:21 AM
So whtever is happening in Iraq, we should blame the President not the army, isnt it?
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renak
03-22-2006, 03:23 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
So whtever is happening in Iraq, we should blame the President not the army, isnt it?
Yes.
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north_malaysian
03-22-2006, 08:26 AM
Originally Posted by renak
Yes.
OK.:okay:
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Wahid
03-22-2006, 09:51 AM
Traitor.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-22-2006, 10:01 AM
DISGUSTING!
They can be with their beloved kuffar on the Day of Judgement!
If they think carpet bombing civillians is protecting innocents, I beg to differ!
MAY ALLAH GUIDE THEM!
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sumay28
03-22-2006, 10:16 AM
I don't know how a muslim can not see the conflict of something like this. I can see this guy here is wanting to do good and all of that.. but man ... joining the US Military? How the heck does that work? I hope he's making his salats!
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itsme01
03-22-2006, 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by renak
Yes.
Would you have the same opinion if we look at this way:
A General tells to kill 1 innocent person

should the unit follow commands
or
should the unit deny his orders
or
should the unit turn against the general
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knuckles
03-22-2006, 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by itsme01
Would you have the same opinion if we look at this way:
A General tells to kill 1 innocent person

should the unit follow commands
or
should the unit deny his orders
or
should the unit turn against the general
A soldier must obey all Rules of Engagement laid out by his superiors unless said orders conflict with US law.
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Ghazi
03-22-2006, 05:40 PM
Salaam

No muslim should serve with the U.S or the U.K army, this is just shocking what are they gonna do kill their brothers and sisters just beacuse bush and blair say so.
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HeiGou
03-22-2006, 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by islam-truth
No muslim should serve with the U.S or the U.K army, this is just shocking what are they gonna do kill their brothers and sisters just beacuse bush and blair say so.
Personally, and call me foolish and old fashioned, I think if you are going to call for a boycott of Armies just because they kill Muslims and Muslimas, you could start a lot closer to the Middle East than Britain and America. How about Iran or Algeria? Jordan or Syria?
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renak
03-22-2006, 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by itsme01
Would you have the same opinion if we look at this way:
A General tells to kill 1 innocent person

should the unit follow commands
or
should the unit deny his orders
or
should the unit turn against the general
If the soldier felt that it was in his best interest to follow the order, then I feel that he should follow the order. If asked to do something inhumane, I think that it would be admirable to deny his order. However, if the soldier felt that his life was at stake if he did not follow the order, then I feel that it is acceptable to perform the order. The realities of war are disturbing, to say the least. Nonetheless, I feel that soldiers need to do whatever they must do in order to leave the war zone alive.
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renak
03-22-2006, 06:33 PM
Originally Posted by islam-truth
Salaam

No muslim should serve with the U.S or the U.K army, this is just shocking what are they gonna do kill their brothers and sisters just beacuse bush and blair say so.
In Iraq Muslim brothers were killing their own Muslim brothers and sisters prior to US occupation. Is it more acceptable for a Muslim to be killed by other Muslims, opposed to being killed by Non-Muslims?
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-22-2006, 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
Personally, and call me foolish and old fashioned, I think if you are going to call for a boycott of Armies just because they kill Muslims and Muslimas, you could start a lot closer to the Middle East than Britain and America. How about Iran or Algeria? Jordan or Syria?
Yes! BOYCOTT THEM ALL!!!!!

How about all the members of LI start their own renegade army opposing opppresive regimes... are ya with me? *silence*....:X
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-22-2006, 08:51 PM
Originally Posted by renak
In Iraq Muslim brothers were killing their own Muslim brothers and sisters prior to US occupation. Is it more acceptable for a Muslim to be killed by other Muslims, opposed to being killed by Non-Muslims?
No it isn't. It isn't acceptable to kill any innocent person. I think this 'oh but it's war' attitude is alot of hooey. Carpet bombing civillains is NOT acceptable!:grumbling
Has the whole world gone mad?:'(
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abdul Majid
03-22-2006, 08:56 PM
NOT EVERYTHING IS FAIR IN THE ARMY, ITS NOT ALLL FOR JUSTICE AND GOODNESS[PIE] According to the Time U.S. magazine, eyewitnesses, doctors and local officials said that the civilians who died that day weren’t killed by a roadside bomb, but by the marines themselves, who went on a rampage in the village after the attack, indiscriminately killing 15 unarmed civilians in their homes, including seven women and three children.

All the witnesses agreed that a U.S. humvee was struck by an IED at around 7:15 a.m. on Nov. 19. "We heard a big noise that woke us all up," said nine-year-old Eman Waleed, who lived in a house 150 yards from the site of the blast. “Then we did what we always do when there's an explosion: My father goes into his room with the Koran and prays that the family will be spared any harm." Eman says the rest of the family, her mother, grandfather, grandmother, two brothers, two aunts and two uncles, gathered in the living room.

The marines claimed that they came under fire from the direction of the Waleed house immediately after the roadside bombing. A group of marines then headed toward the house. When they entered Eman’s home, they “first went into my father's room, where he was reading the Qur’an … and we heard shots." They then entered the living room. "I couldn't see their faces very well—only their guns sticking into the doorway. I watched them shoot my grandfather, first in the chest and then in the head. Then they killed my granny."

Eman says the marines then started firing toward the corner of the room where she and her eight-year-old brother were hiding. The others died while shielding the children from the Americans’ bullets. "We were lying there, bleeding, and it hurt so much. Afterward, some Iraqi soldiers came. They carried us in their arms. I was crying, shouting 'Why did you do this to our family?' And one Iraqi soldier tells me, 'We didn't do it. The Americans did.'"
[/PIE]
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-22-2006, 09:17 PM
^^^a Fine Example Of America's Fine Justice Is Fallujah + Abu Ghraib (twice!)
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Knut Hamsun
03-22-2006, 11:12 PM
Traitor.
Not to their country. The nation state has been the primary binder of peoples now for hundreds of years. A universal, trans-national adherence to the ummah is not as existent as you think (How about the Iran V. Iraq war?). It is mainly muslims in the west who espouse such rhetoric, not peoples in traditionally muslim countries.
DISGUSTING!
They can be with their beloved kuffar on the Day of Judgement!
If they think carpet bombing civillians is protecting innocents, I beg to differ!
MAY ALLAH GUIDE THEM!
Yes, may allah guide them... I think they feel that allah has guided them to do this. The "beloved kuffar" who gave them freedom to adopt a religion hostile to the "kuffar" government? You may only be 16, mu'minah, but I think you are smarter than that. "Carpet bombing civilians" is a lazy accusation, my friend.

I don't know how a muslim can not see the conflict of something like this.
It is called, in F Scott Fitzgerald's lexicon, the definition of "intelligence"... That is, "the ability to hold two contradictory priciples in one's mind at the same time..." But there is conflict in everything in life; no ideal is left unbloodied by an unfortunate counter-example. These folks might have felt that by going to war as a muslim, it kept one less non-believer from engaging in a conflict that needs understanding minds (and boots) on the ground. I'm sure they are not thrilled with having to do so, but with responsibility come some unpleasant tasks. (and only a small fraction of any modern military engages in actual combat, mind you)

No muslim should serve with the U.S or the U.K army, this is just shocking what are they gonna do kill their brothers and sisters just beacuse bush and blair say so.
No, they may not do anything of the sort! Again, they might feel an impulse to serve the country that has given them wealth, freedom and opportunity, rather than sit on their couch and complain about how victimised muslims are. It takes a stronger spirit to do the former than the latter, imo.
And who said anyone killed anyone? And it is an all volunteer army, man.

and call me foolish and old fashioned,
no, heigou, I won't! And you can't make me! (my immitation of an adolescent tantrum). :)

I think if you are going to call for a boycott of Armies just because they kill Muslims and Muslimas, you could start a lot closer to the Middle East than Britain and America. How about Iran or Algeria? Jordan or Syria?
And the Sudan. And Pakistan. And Somalia. And Lebanon.... Probably easier to overthrow one of these regimes than a western democracy, anyway!

a Fine Example Of America's Fine Justice Is Fallujah + Abu Ghraib (twice!)
Yup! Most of the filthy, barbaric a$%holes who did participate in Abu Gharib have been charged, tried, found guilty, and sentenced to rot in federal prison for some years to come. And a vast majority of Americans were disgusted and horrified at what happened to those detainees (very much unlike an almost silent muslim response to major muslim-initiated terror attacks). That is a lot more justice than I have EVER found a muslim country to administer.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-22-2006, 11:16 PM
Originally Posted by Knut Hamsun
Not to their country. The nation state has been the primary binder of peoples now for hundreds of years. A universal, trans-national adherence to the ummah is not as existent as you think (How about the Iran V. Iraq war?). It is mainly muslims in the west who espouse such rhetoric, not peoples in traditionally muslim countries.


Yes, may allah guide them... I think they feel that allah has guided them to do this. The "beloved kuffar" who gave them freedom to adopt a religion hostile to the "kuffar" government? You may only be 16, mu'minah, but I think you are smarter than that. "Carpet bombing civilians" is a lazy accusation, my friend.



It is called, in F Scott Fitzgerald's lexicon, the definition of "intelligence"... That is, "the ability to hold two contradictory priciples in one's mind at the same time..." But there is conflict in everything in life; no ideal is left unbloodied by an unfortunate counter-example. These folks might have felt that by going to war as a muslim, it kept one less non-believer from engaging in a conflict that needs understanding minds (and boots) on the ground. I'm sure they are not thrilled with having to do so, but with responsibility come some unpleasant tasks. (and only a small fraction of any modern military engages in actual combat, mind you)



No, they may not do anything of the sort! Again, they might feel an impulse to serve the country that has given them wealth, freedom and opportunity, rather than sit on their couch and complain about how victimised muslims are. It takes a stronger spirit to do the former than the latter, imo.
And who said anyone killed anyone? And it is an all volunteer army, man.



no, heigou, I won't! And you can't make me! (my immitation of an adolescent tantrum). :)


And the Sudan. And Pakistan. And Somalia. And Lebanon.... Probably easier to overthrow one of these regimes than a western democracy, anyway!



Yup! Most of the filthy, barbaric a$%holes who did participate in Abu Gharib have been charged, tried, found guilty, and sentenced to rot in federal prison for some years to come. And a vast majority of Americans were disgusted and horrified at what happened to those detainees (very much unlike an almost silent muslim response to major muslim-initiated terror attacks). That is a lot more justice than I have EVER found a muslim country to administer.
How sad... you bothered to find out how old i am:giggling:
And the truth is not a lazy accusation!
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Knut Hamsun
03-22-2006, 11:25 PM
How sad... you bothered to find out how old i am
You published it yourself, little one. I would have cared not to know, actually.


And the truth is not a lazy accusation!
Truth? From you? Where?
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-23-2006, 01:09 AM
Originally Posted by Knut Hamsun
You published it yourself, little one. I would have cared not to know, actually.



Truth? From you? Where?
Well then why mention it?:sister:

And stop being sarcastic, and just reply like a normal human being - i.e by actually answering me!
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north_malaysian
03-23-2006, 02:20 AM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
Personally, and call me foolish and old fashioned, I think if you are going to call for a boycott of Armies just because they kill Muslims and Muslimas, you could start a lot closer to the Middle East than Britain and America. How about Iran or Algeria? Jordan or Syria?
Plus Sudan, is it Islamic to join Sudanese army and kill the Darfuri Muslims?
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sumay28
03-23-2006, 12:32 PM
It is called, in F Scott Fitzgerald's lexicon, the definition of "intelligence"... That is, "the ability to hold two contradictory priciples in one's mind at the same time..." But there is conflict in everything in life; no ideal is left unbloodied by an unfortunate counter-example. These folks might have felt that by going to war as a muslim, it kept one less non-believer from engaging in a conflict that needs understanding minds (and boots) on the ground. I'm sure they are not thrilled with having to do so, but with responsibility come some unpleasant tasks. (and only a small fraction of any modern military engages in actual combat, mind you)
In the Military... if you get a tattoo, they can reprimand you. "Destroying Government Property". Not that I condone tattoos or anything.. but this is just an example why I can't agree with a muslim joining the US Armed Forces. The fact of the matter is, the US Military does not conduct war by shariah. There's no WAY that you can be in the US Military and not be going against Islam in some way, shape, or form. For the sake of deen, a Muslim shouldn't even go near it. Now I'm not going to go and say the word "traitor", or "kuffur" (which is a word that should not be used lightly). The dude's in the military. He's trained for battle. Now being that we have US Soldiers dying by the hundreds every day, there is a slight chance that he's going to be called for actual battle. He's going to fight that battle the way the army taught him, not by the Quran. The moment he takes that first shot at someone, and kills them... he's committed a major sin. In Islam you fight for very specific reasons. You do it for Allah, not for Bush. You do it if you're oppressed, not for oil. And do you think the ol' colonel is going to actually let him take a 5 minute break to go make his salat? This is why it's not possible in Islam. That's like a Christian dancing at a gay bar, or a Jehova's Witness at a Christmas party
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HeiGou
03-23-2006, 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by sumay28
The fact of the matter is, the US Military does not conduct war by shariah. There's no WAY that you can be in the US Military and not be going against Islam in some way, shape, or form.
What does the US Army do that is not Sharia?

In Islam you fight for very specific reasons. You do it for Allah, not for Bush. You do it if you're oppressed, not for oil.
Would you mind documenting that? I mean the bedouin were the raw material for the Early Muslim state and they often did not fight for Islam but for booty. They said so too. Was it wrong for a Hypocrit to join the Muslim Army and fight if he really did it for money? Or more specifically, did Muhammed ever turn anyone away from the Army just because he fought for money and not for God?

And do you think the ol' colonel is going to actually let him take a 5 minute break to go make his salat? This is why it's not possible in Islam. That's like a Christian dancing at a gay bar, or a Jehova's Witness at a Christmas party
Actually yes I do. Muslims have Constitutional rights including the right to pray five times a day. A colonel is required to let any soldier break for however long he needs to pray.
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sumay28
03-24-2006, 11:14 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
What does the US Army do that is not Sharia?



Would you mind documenting that? I mean the bedouin were the raw material for the Early Muslim state and they often did not fight for Islam but for booty. They said so too. Was it wrong for a Hypocrit to join the Muslim Army and fight if he really did it for money? Or more specifically, did Muhammed ever turn anyone away from the Army just because he fought for money and not for God?



Actually yes I do. Muslims have Constitutional rights including the right to pray five times a day. A colonel is required to let any soldier break for however long he needs to pray.

Gosh I just don't feel like going into the rules of war according to shariah. I hope someone else on the board can be more informative. However, I was in the US Military. I know that I could not have been in the US Military if I was a muslim man.
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Ghazi
03-24-2006, 11:19 PM
Salaam

No, they may not do anything of the sort! Again, they might feel an impulse to serve the country that has given them wealth, freedom and opportunity, rather than sit on their couch and complain about how victimised muslims are. It takes a stronger spirit to do the former than the latter, imo.
And who said anyone killed anyone? And it is an all volunteer army, man.
Why don't they join the mujahideen and fight for the sake of allah instead of fighting for the sake of bush and blair.
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Knut Hamsun
03-24-2006, 11:36 PM
Why don't they join the mujahideen and fight for the sake of allah instead of fighting for the sake of bush and blair.
B/c they are citizens of either the US or UK and fighting for the "mujahideen" would render them traitors to their countries. Not all muslims think like you, I hope you realize.
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HeiGou
03-25-2006, 09:03 AM
Originally Posted by sumay28
Gosh I just don't feel like going into the rules of war according to shariah. I hope someone else on the board can be more informative. However, I was in the US Military. I know that I could not have been in the US Military if I was a muslim man.
And yet you could have been as a Muslima?

I am sorry you do not feel like going into the rules of War according to the Sharia, but perhaps you would like to take one single example of un-Sharia-like rules?
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