News Just In: Prayer Does Not Heal Sick!

[HeiGou]

Damn it. I always liked the idea it did. And to think of the damage I might have inflicted over the years!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...112892,00.html

Times Online March 31, 2006
Prayer does not heal the sick, study finds
By Sam Knight and agencies

Praying for the health of strangers who have undergone heart surgery has no effect, according to the largest scientific study ever commissioned to calculate the healing power of prayer.

In fact, patients who know they are being prayed for suffer a noticeably higher rate of complications, according to the study, which monitored the recovery of 1,800 patients after heart bypass surgery in the US.

The findings of the decade-long study were due to be published in the American Heart Journal next week, but the journal published the report on its website yesterday as anticipation grew.

The power of intercessory prayer has been studied by doctors for years in America, but with no conclusive results. This $2.4 million study, funded in large part by the John Templeton Foundation, which seeks "insights at the boundary between theology and science", was intended to cast some clear light on the matter.

But the study "did not move us forward or backward" in understanding the effects of prayer, admitted Dr Charles Bethea, one of the co-authors and a cardiologist at the Integris Baptist Medical Center in Oklahoma City. "Intercessory prayer under our restricted format had a neutral effect," he said.

Members of three congregations - St. Paul's Monastery in St. Paul; the Community of Teresian Carmelites in Worcester, Massachussetts; and Silent Unity, a Missouri prayer ministry near Kansas City - were asked to pray for the patients, who were divided into three groups: those who would be told they were being prayed for, those who would receive prayers but not know, and those who would not be prayed for at all.

The worshippers starting praying for the patients the night before surgery and for the next two weeks, asking God to grant "a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications".

The study found no appreciable difference between the health of those who did not know they were being prayed for and those who received no prayers. Fifty-two per cent of patients in both groups suffered complications after surgery. But 59 per cent of those who knew they were prayed for went on to develop complications.

The reports authors said they had no explanation for the difference beyond a possibility that the prayers made people anxious about their ability to recover.

"Did the patients think, ’I am so sick that they had to call in the prayer team?"’ said Dr Bethea.

The results of the study provoked discord among doctors and scientists in the US, many of whom questioned the wisdom of subjecting prayer to the conditions of a research project.

Dr Richard Sloan, a professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia and the author of a forthcoming book, Blind Faith: The Unholy Alliance of Religion and Medicine, told The New York Times: "The problem with studying religion scientifically is that you do violence to the phenomenon by reducing it to basic elements that can be quantified, and that makes for bad science and bad religion."

But Paul Kurtz, Professor Emeritus of Philosophy at the State University of New York at Buffalo, and chairman of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal, had a simpler response when asked why the study had found no evidence for the power of prayer. "Because there is none," he said. "That would be one answer."

Dr. David Stevens, executive director of the Christian Medical and Dental Associations, told the AP that he believed intercessory prayer could influence people's health, but that scientists were not equipped to measure the phenomenon.

"Do we control God through prayer? Theologians would say absolutely not. God decides sometimes to intervene, and sometimes not," he said. As for the new study, he said, "I don’t think... it’s going to stop people praying for the sick."

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I wonder how this would affect the atheist's 'placebo' hypothesis.

Obviously it doesn't change anything from a religious (Islamic) perspective. Thanks for the article though, HeiGou.

Regards

[DaSangarTalib]

prayers does have positive effect on Muslims ALLAHU AKBAR!!

[IbnAbdulHakim]

if only the miracles of prayer ive witness could be broadcast as "fact" all over new haha ;D

PeAcE

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[DaSangarTalib]

if only the miracles of prayer ive witness could be broadcast as "fact" all over new haha ;D

PeAcE

no bro the news dont like those kind of info getting out :thankyou:

[root]

I wonder how this would affect the atheist's 'placebo' hypothesis.

Ansar, Firstly and deliberately in reverse order. It's not an hypothosis it's a theory though I can understand why you are reluctant to give it credibility. Secondly it's not an "atheistic" theory it is a scientific theory.

I would like to make a point crystal clear. Science uses empiricle laws: Verifiable or provable by means of observation or experiment Under empiricle laws verifiable or provable must be subjected to multiple observation or experiment where the same results are observed, only then can a scientific hypothosis take the theoretical validation.

So what does this report tell us? Firstly, the very predictable observable and experimental concept that people who are "Not" aware that they are being preyed for show no benefits in recovery from poor health, this is also the case of "placebo" effects given to patients covertly also show no benefits.

The report is unable to clearly verify the relationship of recovery on a patient who is aware that he/she is being preyed for and suggests that it may even have been a negative effect. This is the opposite results of other scientific experiments that looked at the placebo effect and preyer where they both seemed to obtain good results, however. This experiment was not based on placebo effects and concentrated soley on preyer and recovery from complications following surgery and thus is not relavent to placebo v preyer relationships.

On it's own, very interesting results indeed and I hope they carry out the same experiment again indapendently and elsewhere. perhaps being preyed for at such a time may unduly worry the patient to the severity and seriousness of thier illness and this apparent "anxiety" effects thier ability to recover. But then again perhaps not, thanks for sharing it though.

To finish on a positive note for religion. People of "faith" often live longer and healthier lives than people of no faith.

[aamirsaab]

To finish on a positive note for religion. People of "faith" often live longer and healthier lives than people of no faith.

Yay!

[Cheb]

Well I would disagree with the title. See this research concentrated on Christian prayers. So basically this may be true for Christians alone. Not Islam, Buddhism, Judaism and so on... If they wanted to conduct a more accurate test, they would have to include all religions.
The title should be "Christian prayers do not heal sick". No offense to any Christians though.

[root]

Well I would disagree with the title. See this research concentrated on Christian prayers. So basically this may be true for Christians alone. Not Islam, Buddhism, Judaism and so on...

I quite agree. However, preyer is an effective "placebo" effect, and like a placebo pill does not need to subscribe to a given formula nor does the religion. If such a test was to be carried out I would not expect to see any significant difference amongst differing religions. Afterall we are not talking the intervention by god through preyer but the placebo effect through preyer. Though in the context of this report simply preyer and recovery.

If they wanted to conduct a more accurate test, they would have to include all religions.

I agree, if anything to rule out specific religous requirements.

The title should be "Christian prayers do not heal sick". No offense to any Christians though.

That would be misleading, misinterpreted and wrong. Christian preyers do heal the sick just like Islam would and just like a sugar coated "placebo" pill does.

[afriend]

Well, i mean.....It does require a certain spiritual mentally level, I mean, If u don't believe in God or spirituality, then there's no point, cos it will seem that there's no god.

It has no effect on some........

It has a very good effect on many, for example, Yusuf Islam's story...

[root]

Well, i mean.....It does require a certain spiritual mentally level, I mean, If u don't believe in God or spirituality, then there's no point, cos it will seem that there's no god.

Agreed. One must "believe" in his/her religion to gain a benefit from it just like a patient "believes" the placebo pill is actually a pill that will cure them?

It has no effect on some........

Agreed, thier is no point to a surgeon asking an atheist to prey!

It has a very good effect on many, for example, Yusuf Islam's story...

Agreed. But is it God's intervention or a placebo effect that is the million dollar question and I consider it to be a placebo effect. And thus has limited effect.

[Cheb]

I quite agree. However, preyer is an effective "placebo" effect, and like a placebo pill does not need to subscribe to a given formula nor does the religion. If such a test was to be carried out I would not expect to see any significant difference amongst differing religions. Afterall we are not talking the intervention by god through preyer but the placebo effect through preyer. Though in the context of this report simply preyer and recovery.

Well the placebo affect and healing through prayer may be able to co-exist. The only problem is that you can easily confuse the two. However the way they did their research made sure that all aspects were covered (see the 3 groups). So basically the placebo affect only applies for one of the groups. The other shows that prayers alone did not help when patients did not know they were being prayed for. This means that this group relied solely on divine intervention. This is why I said all religions must be considered. See God might not answer the prayers of a Christian but does answer the prayers of a Muslim. Since HE knows they are following the right path (this is an opinion. A Jew Buddhist etc. can say the same thing). That is why this study is only relevant to Christians.

I agree, if anything to rule out specific religous requirements.



That would be misleading, misinterpreted and wrong. Christian preyers do heal the sick just like Islam would and just like a sugar coated "placebo" pill does.

As an Atheist, it is obvious you would believe that. However, there are billions of others who would say differently. This part is a matter of faith.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace HeiGou

The most important questions that science will not be able to answer are;

Why would God want to be part of a scientific experiment; and what would God gain from going along with this experiment?

God is all knowing and I somehow feel that God might not be too happy with people praying to satisfy a scientific experiment.

I believe beyond a doubt in the healing powers of God, but the proof seems personal to me.

Greetings root I think we may have had this conversation before, take care.

In the spirit of seeking God

Eric

[Cheb]

Greetings and peace HeiGou

The most important questions that science will not be able to answer are;

Why would God want to be part of a scientific experiment; and what would God gain from going along with this experiment?

God is all knowing and I somehow feel that God might not be too happy with people praying to satisfy a scientific experiment.

I believe beyond a doubt in the healing powers of God, but the proof seems personal to me.

Greetings root I think we may have had this conversation before, take care.

In the spirit of seeking God

Eric

Yes very good point Eric.
You reminded me of something else I wanted to point out. What if the prayers were not sincere given that they were praying for someone they don’t really know? I mean we are judged by our intentions, and if their intentions had a motive other than sincere prayers to God, I think their prayers will go unnoticed (but I am a mere mortal so I wouldn’t really know for sure).

[HeiGou]

The most important questions that science will not be able to answer are;

Why would God want to be part of a scientific experiment; and what would God gain from going along with this experiment?

Well it would be one of those "signs" people keep talking about. My question is even more simple - would God really kill some people just to keep this quiet?

God is all knowing and I somehow feel that God might not be too happy with people praying to satisfy a scientific experiment.

Why not take it out on them and not on the patients? Why just kill more of the ones who know they are being prayed for?

I believe beyond a doubt in the healing powers of God, but the proof seems personal to me.

I can respect that.

[root]

Well the placebo affect and healing through prayer may be able to co-exist.

I agree. They are both placebo effects!

The only problem is that you can easily confuse the two.

How comes?

However the way they did their research made sure that all aspects were covered (see the 3 groups). So basically the placebo affect only applies for one of the groups. The other shows that prayers alone did not help when patients did not know they were being prayed for. This means that this group relied solely on divine intervention.

Or biological processes?

This is why I said all religions must be considered. See God might not answer the prayers of a Christian but does answer the prayers of a Muslim. Since HE knows they are following the right path (this is an opinion. A Jew Buddhist etc. can say the same thing). That is why this study is only relevant to Christians.

then your disregarding the placebo effect and citing direct divine intervention?

[Cheb]

Root I am not only considering placebo. Someone like you would of course. However, I am merely stating that if someone wanted to know for sure whether or not prayers do have an affect, they need to consider all kinds of prayers.

[root]

Root I am not only considering placebo. Someone like you would of course. However, I am merely stating that if someone wanted to know for sure whether or not prayers do have an affect, they need to consider all kinds of prayers.

Probably, but why do you think it is that if the recipient of preyer is unaware he/she is being preyed for no positive effects are noticed? What's the deal!

[afriend]

It is not always visible for a person to see the effects of prayer....

As well as wen we take medicine, we can't see the effects instantaniously, but has a delayed effect.

[Cheb]

Probably, but why do you think it is that if the recipient of preyer is unaware he/she is being preyed for no positive effects are noticed? What's the deal!

For a Muslim's perspective I can tell you that they were praying the wrong way ;)
For a Christian’s perspective you can read Eric's post.
For an Atheist's perspective...Well you know.
Like I said, this is where faith comes in. It just depends on what you believe.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace HeiGou

My question is even more simple - would God really kill some people just to keep this quiet?

The experiment involved 1,800 people, and you have to ask why God would single out these people when tens of thousands of people die every day on this planet. I don’t think this experiment had anything to do with God singling out people to be killed or saved just so that an experiment could be recorded.

Well it would be one of those "signs" people keep talking about.

Faith in God seems a very strange concept, you have to want to find God before he reveals himself to you. He dosen't seem to do it the other way round, give you proof first so that you should believe after.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

[MusLiM 4 LiFe]

Damn it. I always liked the idea it did. And to think of the damage I might have inflicted over the years!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...112892,00.html

Times Online March 31, 2006
Prayer does not heal the sick, study finds
By Sam Knight and agencies

Praying for the health of strangers who have undergone heart surgery has no effect, according to the largest scientific study ever commissioned to calculate the healing power of prayer.

In fact, patients who know they are being prayed for suffer a noticeably higher rate of complications, according to the study, which monitored the recovery of 1,800 patients after heart bypass surgery in the US.

The findings of the decade-long study were due to be published in the American Heart Journal next week, but the journal published the report on its website yesterday as anticipation grew.

The power of intercessory prayer has been studied by doctors for years in America, but with no conclusive results. This $2.4 million study, funded in large part by the John Templeton Foundation, which seeks "insights at the boundary between theology and science", was intended to cast some clear light on the matter.

But the study "did not move us forward or backward" in understanding the effects of prayer, admitted Dr Charles Bethea, one of the co-authors and a cardiologist at the Integris Baptist Medical Center in Oklahoma City. "Intercessory prayer under our restricted format had a neutral effect," he said.

Members of three congregations - St. Paul's Monastery in St. Paul; the Community of Teresian Carmelites in Worcester, Massachussetts; and Silent Unity, a Missouri prayer ministry near Kansas City - were asked to pray for the patients, who were divided into three groups: those who would be told they were being prayed for, those who would receive prayers but not know, and those who would not be prayed for at all.

The worshippers starting praying for the patients the night before surgery and for the next two weeks, asking God to grant "a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications".

The study found no appreciable difference between the health of those who did not know they were being prayed for and those who received no prayers. Fifty-two per cent of patients in both groups suffered complications after surgery. But 59 per cent of those who knew they were prayed for went on to develop complications.

The reports authors said they had no explanation for the difference beyond a possibility that the prayers made people anxious about their ability to recover.

"Did the patients think, ’I am so sick that they had to call in the prayer team?"’ said Dr Bethea.

The results of the study provoked discord among doctors and scientists in the US, many of whom questioned the wisdom of subjecting prayer to the conditions of a research project.

Dr Richard Sloan, a professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia and the author of a forthcoming book, Blind Faith: The Unholy Alliance of Religion and Medicine, told The New York Times: "The problem with studying religion scientifically is that you do violence to the phenomenon by reducing it to basic elements that can be quantified, and that makes for bad science and bad religion."

But Paul Kurtz, Professor Emeritus of Philosophy at the State University of New York at Buffalo, and chairman of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal, had a simpler response when asked why the study had found no evidence for the power of prayer. "Because there is none," he said. "That would be one answer."

Dr. David Stevens, executive director of the Christian Medical and Dental Associations, told the AP that he believed intercessory prayer could influence people's health, but that scientists were not equipped to measure the phenomenon.

"Do we control God through prayer? Theologians would say absolutely not. God decides sometimes to intervene, and sometimes not," he said. As for the new study, he said, "I don’t think... it’s going to stop people praying for the sick."

prayer is the ansa 2 evertin.. :happy: wateva that article says, i wnt belive it :uhwhat

[abdul Majid]

[S]hey you can always buy a hankerchief from a guy on tv, claiming that it will heal you...lol [/S]:giggling:

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace to you all;

I sense that for healing to work God wants some proof from us that we believe he can heal.

Last year I had this bad throat and a nasty cough which kept me awake at nights and was very irritating, my wife and people at work kept saying go to a doctor and I ignored them. After about a month of coughing; I phoned the doctors and made an appointment for the following day, a Friday.

On Friday morning I went to church and it was the feast of St. Bede ( I think that was his name) he was the patron saint of healing the throat and we each had our throats blessed. When I got home I cancelled the doctors appointment for that afternoon because I trusted that my throat had been healed. I stopped coughing that day, but I sense that faith comes at a price, we are also asked to give something back in some way.

A number of coincidences happened, I did not know there was going to be a healing service at the church, of all the separate times I had been asked to phone the doctors I chose the one time after this service. In a way the final choice was mine, should I go to the doctors or trust in God?

Yes this is personal to me and it is not intended to inspire or convince anyone else, I have witnessed a number of other specific healings that have increased my own faith in God.

In the spirit of trusting in God

Eric

[afriend]

:sl:

Just tear jerking what Allah can do if we have faith.....

:'(

:sl:

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Greetings and peace to you all;

I sense that for healing to work God wants some proof from us that we believe he can heal.
Eric

i agree wiv u there bro :)
but sometimes it dont work.... there are many i poured my heart and out and believed God will heal but Gods divine will took ova and i had to accept that. I think accepting his will is also a very huge part of faith

:peace: :)

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace brother Abd'Majid;

but sometimes it dont work....

Never give up hope when things go wrong, continue to have faith in a loving and healing God.

In the spirit of trusting God

Eric

[czgibson]

Greetings,

They spent $2.4 million dollars on that? Wow. I could have told you the outcome for nothing...

Peace

[vpb]

sometimes u can pray all day to heal sick but it does not work, sometimes it does,sometimes bad people ask for something and they get it, but it does not mean that they are good, it can be a test, or whatever, it's a matter what Allah swt wants to do, we are not supposed to be based on these things, bc if a person that heals sick with magic does that mean that he is a good person? is that a help from devil? so does that mean that it is right? nope... sometimes good things happen to good people sometimes to bad people...so the matter of this is just who do you worship, who are u getting help from

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Greetings and peace brother Abd'Majid;

Never give up hope when things go wrong, continue to have faith in a loving and healing God.

In the spirit of trusting God

Eric

ye i understand that bro :), wat i meant was that wen it doesnt work u gotta accept it as Gods divine will, and he only does what he does for our benefit :)

:peace: peace :)

[afriend]

U got to believe first before anything happens, and by testing Allah's power and tesing that if praying helps is a sign of disbelief and shows that som1 doesn't trust Allah.

[vpb]

Iqram, yep that's what I am talking about, everything that matter is that just who are u getting help from (is it halal help)... bc if u get help from devil to heal sick, that does not mean that he is the GOD (estagfurullah).

[Mohammed Bilal]

I would disagree with the article from heigou after my prayer i always feel that my heart is filled with happiness. But one day without prayer and my heart feels dead i pray because of a duty but because i want to aswell. Regards

[vpb]

Mohammed Bilal, I think Heigou was talking about healing sick ,not how u feel when u pray but it is true that praying makes u feel good bc u know that u are prostrating Allah swt. :)

[Mohammed Bilal]

i agree