God does exist

[Battle_4_Peace]

Science proofs the existence of God

Indroduction
All Praise be to Allah. We praise Him, ask for His Help and repent to Him. We seek Allah’s protection from the evils of our souls and the bad of our deeds. Whomever Allah guides will never be misguided and whomever Allah misguides will never be guided. I testify that there is no deity but Allah, with Whom thee is no associate. I testify that Muhammad is His servant and Messenger. May Allah bless him, his family, his Companions and those who follow them until the Day of Resurrection.

Koran 45:3. Verily in the heavens and the earth, are Signs for those who believe.
4. And in the creation of yourselves and the fact that animals are scattered through the earth, are Signs for those of assured Faith.

Some people do not believe in the existence of a Creator. They think that the Evolution Theory is a fact and that science supports it, while in reality this is not the case. Hundreds of thousands scientists are against the Evolution Theory because its not proven and it goes against the scientific facts. That's why its called a theory. When we were, in kindergarten theytaught us that a frog, turning into a prince was a nurseryfairytale, but when we got to college they toldus that a, frog turning into a prince was science!' We will proof them with one singel cell, that there is a Almighty Creator Insha'Allah.

Your body contains more than 100.000.000.000.000 cells, some so small that 1.000.000 of them brought together would fit on the tip of a needle. Despite this tiny size, however, the cell is considered by the scientific community as the most complex structure man has ever come across. W. H. Thorpe, an evolutionist scientist, acknowledges that, 'The most elementary type of cell constitutes a 'mechanism' unimaginably more complex than any machine yet thought up, let alone constructed, by man'. [W. R. Bird, The Origin of Species Revisited, Thomas Nelson, p. 298 and 299].

Koran 13:16. Say, 'Allah is the Creator of all things, He is the One, the Supreme and Irresistible'.


Is it possible?
Robert Shapiro, a professor of chemistry at New York University and a DNA expert, calculated the probability of the coincidental formation of the 2000 types of proteins found in a single bacterium [There are 200,000 different types of proteins in a human cell]. The number that was found was 1 over 10/40000. [Robert Shapiro, Origins, A Sceptics Guide to the Creation of Life on Earth, New York, Summit Books, 1986. p.127]. This is an incredible number obtained by putting 40,000 zeros after the 1!

So

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So many attempts would fail to create a singel bacterium and only 1 attempt would succeed. A one followed by six zeros is a million, look at the numbers above! Subhan'Allah! This is nothing compared to what you will read now. Harold Morowitz, a Yale University physicist, gave a far more realistic 'Probability' for a single bacterium. He calculated the odds of a single bacterium emerging from the basic building blocks necessary were 1 chance in 10/100.000.000.000. [Cited in Mark Eastman, Chuck Missler, The Creator Beyond Time and Space, Costa Mesa, CATWFT, 1996, Page 61]. This is a 1 followed by 100.000.000.000 zeros! This number is so large it would require a library of approximately 100,000 books just to write it out! Allahu Akbar! Wallahie tell me, how can someone reject Allah after reading this?

Koran 7:40. To those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance, no opening will there be of the gates of heaven, nor will they enter the garden, until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle, Such is Our reward for those in sin.

Emile Borel said, 'If anything is ten to the 50th power [A 1 followed by 50 Zeros] or less chance, it will never happen, even cosmically, in the whole universe'. [Emile Borel, Nobel Prize Winner, Probabilities and Life. New York Dover 1962. Ch. 1 to 3]. So what about 100.000.000.000 zeros? And again, this whas nothing compared to what you are going to read now.

The science of probability has not been favorable to evolutionary theory, even with the theory's loose time restraints. Dr. James Coppedge, of the Center for Probability Research in Biology in California, made some amazing calculations. Dr. Coppedge applied all the laws of probability studies to the possibility of a single cell coming into existence by chance. He considered in the same way a single protein molecule, and even a single gene. His discoveries are revolutionary. He computed a world in which the entire crust of the earth - all the oceans, all the atoms, and the whole crust were available. He then had these amino acids bind at a rate one and one half trillion times faster than they do in nature. In computing the possibilities, he found that to provide a single protein molecule by chance combination would take 10, to the 262nd power, years'. That is, the number 1 followed by 262 zeros.

'To get a single cell - the single smallest living cell known to mankind - which is called the mycroplasm hominis H39, would take 10, to the 119,841st power, years. That means that if you took thin pieces of paper and wrote 1 and then wrote zeros after it, you would fill up the entire known universe with paper before you could ever even write that number. That is how many years it would take to make one living cell, smaller than any human cell!' Subhan Allah! Look at how clear Islam is and how dark the way is that the atheists follow.

The reason they reject Allah is not because they don't know. They do known, and the reason is that they don't want to believe. They don't want to believe in God, and they take the devils as their friends. Those devils misguid them and still they think that they are on the truth. Look at those numbers, how can someone reject the Almighty Creator? Allah has allways been there and He is not created. Allah made the truth like the day and falsehood like the dark night. Even a blind man can see the straight path of Islam.

Koran 6:39. Those who reject our sings are deaf and dumb, in the midst of darkness profound. Whom Allah willeth, He leaveth to wander. Whom He willeth, He placeth on the way that is straight.
Koran 8:23. If Allah had found in them any good, He would indeed have made them listen. As it is, if He had made them listen, they would but have turned back and declined Faith.

According to Emile Borel, an expert in the area of probability, an event on the cosmic level with a probability of less than 1 out of 10, to the 50th power, will not happen. The probability of producing one human cell by chance is 10, to the 119,000 power. Sir Fred Hoyle, a mathematician and astronomer, was quoted in Nature magazine, November 12, 1981, as saying, 'The chance that higher life forms might have emerged in this way (Evolution) is comparable with the chance that a tornado sweeping through a junk yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein'.

Some people reading these lines who have so far accepted the theory of evolution as a scientific explanation may suspect that these numbers are exaggerated and do not reflect the true facts. That is not the case, these are definite and concrete facts. No evolutionist can object to these numbers. They accept that the probability of the coincidental formation of a single protein is as unlikely as the possibility of a monkey writing the history of humanity on a typewriter without making any mistakes'. [Inheritance and Evolution, Meteksan Publishing 1984, p. 64].

Hugh Ross estimates that the chances of ONE planet in the universe developing life is one in ten to the 282nd power (million trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion).

Now let us look at molecules. A single drop of blood has 35,000,000 red blood cells. A single red blood cell has 280,000,000 hemoglobin molecules, each molecule having 10,000 atoms. Molecules are so small that ¼ teaspoon of water has 1.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000 of them. De Nouy provides another illustration for arriving at a single molecule of high dissymmetry through chance action and normal thermic agitation. He assumes 500 trillion shakings per second plus a liquid material volume equal to the size of the earth. For one molecule it would require '10/243 billions of years'. [A 1 followed by 243 zeros]. Even if this molecule did somehow arise by chance, it is still only one single molecule. Hundreds of millions are needed, requiring compound probability calculations for each successive molecule. His logical conclusion is that 'It is totally impossible to account scientifically for all phenomena pertaining to life'. [Cited in Evan Shute, Flaws in the Theory of Evolution Nutley, NJ Craig Press, 1971, Page 23].

This was only a bacterium, what about the Great Creation of the heavens and the earth? This means that it is not possible for the cell to have come into being by coincidence, and therefore it must definitely have been created. In the Creation of God are Signs, for people of understanding. Look at your eyes, nose, fingers, ears, lips etc. Who created this? You cannot live more than a few minuts, without your nose. This is enough proof, to bury Darwin with his monkey theory under the ground.


Conclusion
This is suficient prove that God does exist, because not even an atom can come into being by chance. So who Created it? The only answer is Allah, the Almighty Creator of the heavens and the earth. There is no doubt about this. Since God cannot be a monkey, an idol made of sand, a blue elephant flying on a carpet with 9 hands, a prophet who used to eat and go to toilet, a ghost etc (Astagfirullah) therefore Allah must be the Creator of everything. All books who claimed to be a revelation from God, are full of errors and contradictions today, except the Qur'an. This is enoug proof that it must be a revelation from God. The Bible for example is full of errors and contradictions.

The Christians don't even know who wrote those books. There are hundreds of versions of the Bible, each one is different. So how do we know which ons is the right one? Secondly they don't even know their God. Some of them say that Jesus was God, others reject that. Some of them say Maria was the mother of God, and other Christians reject that. Some say the Holy Ghost is God, and others reject it. Some say Jesus died on the cross, other say on a tree etc. So how do we know who is speaking the truth? Each one of them has his own proofs because each one has a different Bible. The book of the Muslims is one and our God is one and our prophet was one.

There can be only one God, because God is the strongest. There cannot be 2 or 3 strongest. So if another being is stronger than you, then you cannot be God. This is what Islam teaches, and this is the truth, accept Islam and all your sins will fall away from the day you accept Islam. You will be born again like a baby, without sins. Don't die, except as a Muslim. :)

:w:

[Battle_4_Peace]

Why can i not edit my post?
Read the real version here Insha'Allah: http://www.freewebs.com/islamiway/proves.htm

[Battle_4_Peace]

:w:

I realy don't like this brother, why did they made this rule? :?
I fyou don't see the link i gave you, try this: www. freewebs. com /islamiway/ proves.htm

[wilberhum]

Only undedicated and/or closed minded people assume that evolution denies god. I have one simple question. 100 million year old rocks contain dinosaur bones but we don’t find 100 year old elephant bones. Today we have elephants but no dinosaurs. How can that be?:rollseyes

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[Cheb]

Well evolution contradicts one part of religion, how humans were brought to earth. Other than that I see no reason why evolution does not exist.

[wilberhum]

Cheb,
Glad to see your moderate and tolerant view. I have some questions though. Please do understand that I am also moderate and tolerant. I have no desire to ruffle fathers and raise anger.

Did god create the trees? I would assume your answer is yes. But trees evolved. That does not mean that god did not create trees. Truly if my grandfather did not exist, I would not exist. If man evolved from something that god created then didn’t god create man? My answer is yes.

Should we really use our holy books as science books? Or should they be used to bring us closer to god and be better people.

[al-fateh]

great article

[PIE]Salam[/PIE]

[Cheb]

Cheb,
Glad to see your moderate and tolerant view. I have some questions though. Please do understand that I am also moderate and tolerant. I have no desire to ruffle fathers and raise anger.

Did god create the trees? I would assume your answer is yes. But trees evolved. That does not mean that god did not create trees. Truly if my grandfather did not exist, I would not exist. If man evolved from something that god created then didn’t god create man? My answer is yes.

Should we really use our holy books as science books? Or should they be used to bring us closer to god and be better people.

Greetings,
See when you apply your last 2 paragraphs to Islam they contradict each other. God has specifically told us how man was brought to earth starting with Adam (pbuh) and Hawah (Eve). This is just a religious belief and not a scientific explanation. There is no need to involve science and science does not prove that humans were not brought to earth by Adam and Eve. I still believe that humans evolve but only out of necessity. Evolution is God's tool to insure that life on this earth continues to exist as long as necessary.
Religious books are used to guide us towards the righteous path.

[Cheb]

Just one more point, while the part of the article that says Darwin's theory is proven wrong may not be true, it still gives a very strong argument to why God exists.

[cleo]

How could I be without Allah?

[Maimunah]

How could I be without Allah?

allah is n was with u all ur life:)

great artical sis:)

wasalaam

[Abu Omar]

Only undedicated and/or closed minded people assume that evolution denies god. I have one simple question. 100 million year old rocks contain dinosaur bones but we don’t find 100 year old elephant bones. Today we have elephants but no dinosaurs. How can that be?:rollseyes

There is (to my knowledge) nothing in Islam which says that Allaah (swt) can't take a creation away, i.e remove it.

And ming you, crocodile fossiles millions of years old look similar to modern crocodiles. The same goes for ants. The E-coli bacteria which is in the stomachs and tarms of most humans (if not all) has a very short generation span. This means that scientists have been able to make experiments on them, and within the reach of a lot of generations. Yet while they have got mutations on them, they have still remained E-coli. So far I know, there is not a single recorded instance where multiple bacteria have joined together to form a "primitive" life form, like the theory of evolution demands.

E-coli is still E-coli!

Indeed, some stuff of the theory of evolution is purely ridiculous. For example, the atheists say that whales emerged from bears and hippopotamoses (spelling?), accounts differ, who went swimming!!!

Subhan'Allaah.

Jazak Allaah khayr sister for posting this article. But sadly I think it is of no avail for those who are bent disbelieve. They don't differ much from the mushrikeen in Makkah who were of the same kind. Yet, I think those sincere seekers of Truth will be enlightened, wa Allaahu alem.

[Battle_4_Peace]

Scientists about the existence of a Creator

Isaac Newton said, 'This most beautiful system of sun, planets, and comets could only proceed from the council and dominion of an intelligent and powerful being'. (Sir Isaac Newton, regarded as the greatest scientist of all time).

Edwin Conklin said, 'The probability of life originating from accident is comparable to the probability of the unabridged dictionary resulting from an explosion in a printing shop'. (Dr. Edwin Conklin, evolutionist and professor of biology at Princeton University).

Dr. Louist T said, 'Evolution is faith, a religion'. (Dr. Louist T. More, professor of paleontology at Princeton University).

Dr. David Berlinsky said, 'There are gaps in the fossil graveyard, places where there should be intermediate forms, but where there is nothing whatsoever instead. No paleontologist, denies that this is so. It is simply a fact, Darwin's theory and the fossil record are in conflict'.

Albert Einstein said, 'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'.

James Coppedge said, 'Chance renders evolution impossible'. (Dr. James Coppedge)

James Coppege said, 'The probability of a single protein molecule being arranged by chance is, 1 in 10/161 power, using all the atoms on earth and allowing all the time since the world began, for a minimum set of required 239 protein molecules for the smallest theoretical life, the probability is, 1 in 10/119.879 power. It would take, 10/119.879 power, years on average to get a set of such proteins. That is 10/119.831 times the assumed age of the earth and is a figure with 119.831 zeros'. (Dr. James Coppege from, 'The Farce of Evolution' Page 71).

Francis Crick said, 'An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle, so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going'. (Dr. Francis Crick, biochemist, Nobel Prize winner, Life Itself, Its Origin and Nature, Page 88).

Johnathan Wells said, 'I think in fifty years, Darwinian evolution will be gone from the science curriculum. I think people will look back on it and ask how anyone could, in their right mind, have believed this, because it'sso implausible when you look at the evidence'. (Dr. Johnathan Wells, author of the book, 'Icons of Evolution').

Charles Townes, 'Many have a feeling that somehow intelligence must have been involved in the laws of the universe'. (Charles Townes, 1964 Nobel Prize winner in physics, 'Science Finds God' Newsweek, 20 July, 1998).

Stephen Hawking said, 'The universe and the Laws of Physics seem to have been specifically designed for us. If any one of about 40 physical qualities had more than slightly different values, life as we know it could not exist, Either atoms would not be stable, or they wouldn'tcombine into molecules, or the stars wouldn'tform heavier elements, or the universe would collapse before life could develop, and so on'. (Stephen Hawking, considered the best known scientist since Albert Einstein, Austin, American-Statesmen, October 19, 1997).

Richard Dawkins said, 'The more statistically improbable a thing is, the less we can believe that it just happened by blind chance. Superficially, the obvious alternative to chance is an intelligent Designer'. (Professor Richard Dawkins).

George Wald said, 'There are only two possibilities as to how life arose, one is spontaneous generation arising to evolution, the other is a supernatural creative act of God, there is no third possibility. Spontaneous generation that life arose from non living matter was scientifically disproved 120 years ago by Louis Pasteur and others. That leaves us with only one possible conclusion, that life arose as a creative act of God. I will not accept that philosophically because I do not want to believe in God, therefore I choose to believe in that which I know is scientifically impossible, spontaneous generation arising to evolution'. (Dr. George Wald, evolutionist, Professor Emeritus of Biology at the University at Harvard, Nobel Prize winner in Biology).

Nils Heribert Nilson said, 'My attempts to demonstrate evolution by an experiment carried on for more than 40 years have completely failed. It is not even possible to make a caricature of an evolution out of paleobiological facts. The idea of an evolution rests on pure belief'. (Dr. Nils Heribert Nilsson, noted Swedish botanist and geneticist, of Lund University).

Newton Tahmisian said, 'Scientists who go about teaching that evolution is a fact of life are great con-men, and the story they are telling may be the greatest hoax ever! In explaining evolution we do not have one iota of fact'. (Dr. Newton Tahmisian, Atomic Energy Commission).

Robert A said, 'The pathetic thing about it is that many scientists are trying to prove the doctrine of evolution, which no science can do'. (Dr. Robert A. Milikan, physicist and Nobel Prize winner, speech before the American Chemical Society.)

Richard Bliss said, 'The miracles required to make evolution feasible are far greater in number and far harder to believe than the miracle of creation'. (Dr. Richard Bliss, former professor of biology and science education as Christian Heritage College, 'It Takes A Miracle For Evolution').

Colin Patterson said, 'The only competing explanation for the order we all see in the biological world is the notion of special creation'. (Dr. Colin Patterson, evolutionist and senior Paleontologist at the British Museum of Natural History, which houses 60 million fossils).

Wolfgang Smith said, 'A growing number of respectable scientists are defecting from the evolutionist camp, moreover, for the most part these 'Experts' have abandoned Darwinism, not on the basis of religious faith or biblical persuasions, but on strictly scientific grounds, and in some instances, regretfully'. (Dr. Wolfgang Smith, physicist and mathematician).

Harold Urey said, 'All of us who study the origin of life find that the more we look into it, the more we feel it is too complex to have evolved anywhere. We all believe as an article of faith that life evolved from dead matter on this planet. It is just that life's complexity is so great, it is hard for us to imagine that it did'. (Dr. Harold Urey, Nobel Prize winner).

Louis Bounoure said, 'Evolution is a fairy tale for grown ups. This theory has helped nothing in the progress of science. It is useless'. (Prof. Louis Bounoure, Director of Research, National Center of Scientific Research).

Ambrose Flemming said, 'The evolution theory is purely the product of the imagination'. (Dr. Ambrose Flemming, Pres. Philosophical Society of UK).

Michael Denton said, 'The great cosmologic myth of the twentieth century'. (Michael Denton, molecular biochemist, Evolution, Theory in Crisis).

Dr. Ethredge said, '90% of the talk of evolution is sheer nonsense not founded on observation and wholly unsupported by fact. This Museum is full of proof of the utter falsity of their view'. (Dr. Ethredge, British Museum of Science.)

Dr. James Perloff said, 'The evolutionary establishment fears creation science, because evolution itself crumbles when challenged by evidence. In the 1970s and 1980s, hundreds of public debates were arranged between evolutionary scientists and creation scientists. The latter scored resounding victories, with the result that, today, few evolutionists will debate. Isaac Asimov, Stephen Jay Gould, and the late Carl Sagan, while highly critical of creationism, all declined to debate'. (Dr. James Perloff, Tornado in a Junkyard 1999, p. 241).

George Sim Johnson said, 'Human DNA contains more organized information than the Encyclopedia Britannica. If the full text of the encyclopedia were to arrive in computer code from outer space, most people would regard this as proof of the existence of extraterrestrial intelligence. But when seen in nature, it is explained as the workings of random forces'. (George Sim Johnson 'Did Darwin Get it Right?' October 1999).

George Gallup said, 'I could prove God statistically, take the human body alone, the chance that all the functions of the individual would just happen, is a statistical monstrosity'. (George Gallup, the famous statistician)

Harold Morowitz said, 'The probability for the chance of formation of the smallest, simplest form of living organism known is 1 to 10^340,000,000. This number is 1 to 10 to the 340 millionth power! The size of this figure is truly staggering, since there is only supposed to be approximately 10-80 (10 to the 80th power) electrons in the whole universe!' (Professor Harold Morowitz).

Pierre Paul Grasse said, 'To insist, even with Olympian assurance, that life appeared quite by chance and evolved in this fashion, is an unfounded supposition which I believe to be wrong and not in accordance with the facts'. (Dr. Pierre Paul Grasse, University of Paris & past-president of French Academy of Science).

Dr. A.E Wilder Smith said, 'It is emphatically the case that life could not arise spontaneously in a primeval soup from its kind'. (Dr. A.E Wilder Smith, chemist and former evolutionist).

Michael Denton said, 'The complexity of the simplest known type cell is so great that it is impossible to accept that such an object could have been thrown together by some kind of freakish, vastly improbable event. Such an occurrence would be indistinguishable from a miracle'. (Dr. Michael Denton, molecular biochemist).

Allan Sandage said, 'The world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone. I am convinced that the existence of life with all its order in each of its organisms is simply too well put together. Each part of a living thing depends on all its other parts to function. How does each part know? How is each part specified at conception? The more one learns of biochemistry the more unbelievable it becomes unless there is some type of organizing principle an architect'. (Scientist Allan Sandage).

'Complex molecules that are essential to particular organisms often have such a vast information content as, to make the theory of evolution impossible'. (Bird, Origin of Species Revisited, Vol. 1, pg. 71).

James Conant said, 'Therefore, a grotesque account of a period some thousands of years ago is taken seriously though it be built by piling special assumptions on special assumptions, ad hoc hypothesis [Invented for a purpose] on ad hoc hypothesis, and tearing apart the fabric of science whenever it appears convenient. The result is a fantasia which is neither history nor science'. (Dr. James Conant [Chemist and former president of Harvard University], Quoted in Origins Research, Vol. 5, No. 2, 1982, p. 2.)

John Ambrose said, 'Evolution is baseless and quite incredible'. (Dr. John Ambrose Fleming, President, British Association for Advancement of Science, in 'The Unleashing of Evolutionary Thought').

H. Lipson said, 'I have always been slightly suspicious of the theory of evolution because of its ability to account for any property of living beings. I have therefore tried to see whether biological discoveries over the last thirty years or so fit in with Darwin's theory. I do not think that they do. To my mind, the theory does not stand up at all'. (H. Lipson, 'A Physicist Looks at Evolution', Physic Bulletin, 31 1980, p. 138).

Albert Einstein said, 'Everyone who is seriously interested in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe a spirit vastly superior to man, and one in the face of which our modest powers must feel humble'.

[Battle_4_Peace]

Islamic Scholars about the existence of God

Abu Hanifah
Imam Abu Hanifa organized a meeting with Atheists to discuss the existence of Allah. On purpose, Imam Abu Hanifa joined the gathering late which lead the Atheists to believe that Imam Abu Hanifa had no argument. Finally when he arrive he told them, 'I came to cross the river and no boats were there to take me across then a tree fell down and formed planks of wood all by itself and I waited and the rest of the boat was formed right before my eyes and that's why I am late'. Of course they didn't believe him and told him it couldn't just happen like that. Imam Abu Hanifa replied, 'Then how can the universe form all by itself?'.


Imam Shafi
Imam Shafi was asked what the proofs are of the existance of God and he replied, 'The leaves of Toot (berries) are all but one. Each leaf tastes exactly the same. Insects, honey bees, cows, goats, and deer live off of it. After eating these the insects produce silk; bees produce honey; deer give musk (a special kind of scent), cows and goats deliver off-springs. Is this not clear evidence that one kind of leaf has so many qualities, and who created these qualities? It is the Creator who we call Allah. Who is the Inventor and the Creator."


Ahmad ibn Hanbal
Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal reflected on the question in the following way. He said, 'There is an incredibly strong fort, it has no doors, there is no way to get in. In fact, there is not even a hole in it. From outside it glows like the moon and from inside it shimmers like gold. It is sealed from all sides, matter of fact it is air tight. Suddenly one of its doors breaks down, a living thing with eyes and ears, a beautiful looking animal appears yelling and wandering all over. So is not there a creator who made it possible for life to take place in this secured and closed fort? And is not this Creator better than humans? This Creator has no limit'. Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal was referring to an egg which is closed from all sides but Allah The Creator puts life in it and a chick pops out.


Imam Malik
Once Khalifa Haroon Rasheed asked Imam Malik, 'What is the evidence pointing to the existence of Allah?' Imam Malik replied, 'Difference in languages, difference in pitches of voice, difference in singing are proof that Allah exists!'.


The Bedouin
Once, a Bedouin was asked what made an unsophisticated man like him believe in Allah. The Bedouin asked, 'Do you see these marks in the sand?' The man answered, 'Yes' the Bedouin asked again, 'What do they tell you?' So the man replied, 'A camel went by'. The Bedouin asked, 'Did you see the camel?' The man replied, 'No, but these footprints in the sand suggest that a camel made them'. So the bedouin asked him, 'Do you see these mountains?' The man said, 'Yes' The bedouin said, 'They are indicative to me that Allah made them'.

[Battle_4_Peace]

:sl:

You know, we as Muslims believe that Allah created the heavens and the earth in a perfect way. I mean, would you believe it, if someone told you 2000 years ago that we are living on a great ball and this ball is swimming in the universe, no mather where you are, you don't fall of this ball. This ball is circling around another fire ball, if this motion stops, we all will burn? Would you believe that? I don't think so. Just look at the creation and you will find God, like prophet Mohammad, Allah's peace and blessings be upon him told us. Let me show you some signs of a perfect disign, that cannot come by chance.

Koran 67:3. He Who created the seven heavens one above another. No want of proportion wilt thou see in the Creation of the Most Gracious. So turn thy vision again, seest thou any flaw?
4. Again turn thy vision a second time, thy vision will come back to thee dull and discomfited, in a state worn out.

:w:

[IbnAbdulHakim]

JazakAllah khair akhee!!! BRILLIANT PICTURES!!!

[Battle_4_Peace]

:sl:

Wa Jazakum. If you know an atheist or debate against an atheist, just show this to him Insha'Allah.

[Khattab]

:sl: Great pictures:brother: alhamdulillah, but shouldnt this be in the Comparative Religion section.

:w:

[wilberhum]

Cheb
I have no argument about whether 'God does exist' or not. I do believe that he does. I only argue about it being provable. I also argue against the concept that evolution = no god. I’m proof that it doesn’t because I believe in god and evolution. We will never be able to prove that god did or did not take direct action in the creation of man. (Obviously, since god’s existence is not provable) Logic does draw me to the conclusion that man is also a product of evolution but again no one will ever be able to bring proof. I just think “Holy Books” should be used to bring us closer to god and make us better people. I don’t think we should use them as science books. I think the story of Adam and Eve is nothing more than a metaphor to explain that god created us. Directly or indirectly, it does not change or challenge his creation.
To unscientifically challenge one or two of the many million peace of evidence for evolution, to me, is of no value. I also reject the concept that every once and a while god drops in and adds and removes species. I just think god is smart enough to use evolution as a tool.

[Battle_4_Peace]

I have no argument about whether 'God does exist' or not. I do believe that he does. I only argue about it being provable. I also argue against the concept that evolution = no god. I’m proof that it doesn’t because I believe in god and evolution. We will never be able to prove that god did or did not take direct action in the creation of man. (Obviously, since god’s existence is not provable) Logic does draw me to the conclusion that man is also a product of evolution but again no one will ever be able to bring proof. I just think “Holy Books” should be used to bring us closer to god and make us better people. I don’t think we should use them as science books. I think the story of Adam and Eve is nothing more than a metaphor to explain that god created us. Directly or indirectly, it does not change or challenge his creation. To unscientifically challenge one or two of the many million peace of evidence for evolution, to me, is of no value. I also reject the concept that every once and a while god drops in and adds and removes species. I just think god is smart enough to use evolution as a tool.

Alhamdolillah

Everything that science proofs is true. That we were monkeys, is not proven. That maybe animals change, is possible. Why not? Its narrated in a Hadith by Imam Bukharie i think, that Adam was 30 cubits tall. So people changed from time to time. There is no problem at all. There is nothing that science has discoverd which is against Islam, nothing. In fact, Allah said things in the Qur'an, which are discoverd yesterday. You know the fossils that are found, not a singel one proofs the evolution theory. The museums are full of proof against the lie that our fathers were monkeys. If you proof that God does exist, then you have to believe that He created Adam and Eve. They were in Jannah, and satan misleaded them. So believe in science and islam, there is absolutely no conflict between this two, Alhamdolillah.

[wilberhum]

Battle_4_Peace
Interesting thoughts. But, that we were monkeys is not proven is so true, no one who understands evolution would suggest that we were monkeys. But there is a lot of evidence to indicate that we evolved from earlier primates. You know the fossils that are found, not a single one proofs the evolution theory, but there is no other logical, not theist explanation. Why would god provide millions of misleading pieces of evidence? If we could prove the existence of god, that would render no proof of Adam and Eve. In fact Adam and Eve could have existed even if god doesn’t.

[Battle_4_Peace]

Battle_4_Peace, Interesting thoughts. But, that we were monkeys is not proven is so true, no one who understands evolution would suggest that we were monkeys. But there is a lot of evidence to indicate that we evolved from earlier primates. You know the fossils that are found, not a single one proofs the evolution theory, but there is no other logical, not theist explanation. Why would god provide millions of misleading pieces of evidence? If we could prove the existence of god, that would render no proof of Adam and Eve. In fact Adam and Eve could have existed even if god doesn’t.

Why Allah provided misleading pieces of evidence, i don't know. You have to ask Allah about that hehe. Maybe to test the people? Actualy, its not misleading. If they could use it, they would surely have done it. Till today, Evolution is called a theory. We Muslims do not follow theories, we follow facts Alhamdolillah. But nobody can say to us anymore, that we are on earth by chance. Somebody must have created all this. This website of Harun Yahya, may Allah guide him, refutes Darwinism completely: http://www.living-fossils.com/

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Why Allah provided misleading pieces of evidence, i don't know. You have to ask Allah about that hehe. Maybe to test the people? Actualy, its not misleading. If they could use it, they would surely have done it. Till today, Evolution is called a theory. We Muslims do not follow theories, we follow facts Alhamdolillah. But nobody can say to us anymore, that we are on earth by chance. Somebody must have created all this. This website of Harun Yahya, may Allah guide him, refutes Darwinism completely: http://www.living-fossils.com/

are you sure the shaytaan didnt provide the misleading evidences which Allah allowed?

[Battle_4_Peace]

Are you sure the shaytaan didnt provide the misleading evidences which Allah allowed?

Koran 39:62. God is the creator of all things, and He is the guarantor of all things.

Allah created all things, Shajtan cannot create primates or humans. So how can Shajtan provide false evidence? The Shajtaan can mislead those poeple and he can let them think that we were monkeys, but Shajtaan cannot create primates to mislead them :)

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Koran 39:62. God is the creator of all things, and He is the guarantor of all things.

Allah created all things, Shajtan cannot create primates or humans. So how can Shajtan provide false evidence? The Shajtaan can mislead those poeple and he can let them think that we were monkeys, but Shajtaan cannot create primates to mislead them :)

jazakAllah khair barakallah feekum wise akhee :)

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Science proofs the existence of God

Oh really?

Some people do not believe in the existence of a Creator.

True - e.g. me!

They think that the Evolution Theory is a fact and that science supports it, while in reality this is not the case. Hundreds of thousands scientists are against the Evolution Theory because its not proven and it goes against the scientific facts. That's why its called a theory.

Well, how scientific! The author clearly doesn't know what a theory is, and probably doesn't know very much about science either.

Despite this tiny size, however, the cell is considered by the scientific community as the most complex structure man has ever come across.

No, that would be the human brain.

Is it possible?
Robert Shapiro, a professor of chemistry at New York University and a DNA expert, calculated the probability of the coincidental formation of the 2000 types of proteins found in a single bacterium [There are 200,000 different types of proteins in a human cell]. The number that was found was 1 over 10/40000. [Robert Shapiro, Origins, A Sceptics Guide to the Creation of Life on Earth, New York, Summit Books, 1986. p.127]. This is an incredible number obtained by putting 40,000 zeros after the 1!

Right, and it's a figure that ultimately says nothing about the nature of reality. It's an estimate, one man's guess.

>What on Earth was the point of all those 9s? Was that some sort of lame effort to make the article look vaguely scientific?<

So many attempts would fail to create a singel bacterium and only 1 attempt would succeed. A one followed by six zeros is a million, look at the numbers above! Subhan'Allah!

These are numbers plucked from the air, to which I would say "so what?"

This is nothing compared to what you will read now. Harold Morowitz, a Yale University physicist, gave a far more realistic 'Probability' for a single bacterium. He calculated the odds of a single bacterium emerging from the basic building blocks necessary were 1 chance in 10/100.000.000.000. [Cited in Mark Eastman, Chuck Missler, The Creator Beyond Time and Space, Costa Mesa, CATWFT, 1996, Page 61]. This is a 1 followed by 100.000.000.000 zeros! This number is so large it would require a library of approximately 100,000 books just to write it out! Allahu Akbar! Wallahie tell me, how can someone reject Allah after reading this?

Someone who understands elementary mathematics could do it quite easily. Again, we're talking about an estimate, as the Professor who made it would tell you if he were given the chance to speak for himself.

'To get a single cell - the single smallest living cell known to mankind - which is called the mycroplasm hominis H39, would take 10, to the 119,841st power, years. That means that if you took thin pieces of paper and wrote 1 and then wrote zeros after it, you would fill up the entire known universe with paper before you could ever even write that number. That is how many years it would take to make one living cell, smaller than any human cell!' Subhan Allah! Look at how clear Islam is and how dark the way is that the atheists follow.

What is the connection between the last two sentences of that paragraph and what precedes them?

The reason they reject Allah is not because they don't know. They do known, and the reason is that they don't want to believe.

Now we get to the interesting stuff. So far, the author has used quotes from scientists in ways that they most likely wouldn't approve of; now the author is actually giving us his own "arguments".

I wonder what he's talking about though. What is it that atheists "known"?

They don't want to believe in God, and they take the devils as their friends. Those devils misguid them and still they think that they are on the truth.

I can assure you, I do not fraternise with devils. What planet is this guy on?

Look at those numbers, how can someone reject the Almighty Creator?

I'm not sure whether it's funny or pathetic that this writer thinks he's found a mathematical proof for the existence of god.

Some people reading these lines who have so far accepted the theory of evolution as a scientific explanation may suspect that these numbers are exaggerated and do not reflect the true facts. That is not the case, these are definite and concrete facts.

That's the funniest part so far!

As any of the scientists quoted would tell you, these estimates are not facts, by any stretch of the imagination.

No evolutionist can object to these numbers.

I'd be amazed to find an evolutionist reading this article who didn't laugh at it and call it utterly worthless.

'It is totally impossible to account scientifically for all phenomena pertaining to life'. [Cited in Evan Shute, Flaws in the Theory of Evolution Nutley, NJ Craig Press, 1971, Page 23].

This is true, but it's taken completely out of context and made to serve a purpose which its original author wouldn't have intended.

By the end of the article, the author is just gibbering inanities, which are hardly worth repeating. I'd be amazed if any non-Muslim was convinced by this unbelievably witless piece of writing.

Thanks for posting it, though. I haven't laughed so much in ages!

Let me show you some signs of a perfect disign, that cannot come by chance.

Don't those pictures actually give great examples of how well-adapted those creatures are? A process, incidentally, which has little to do with chance.

Peace

[Hussein radi]

Evalution has been proven wrong by scientist who wanted to prove it right. Czgibson tell me what you think of this movie, cuz i really want your answer.

http://www.harunyahya.com/download/d...d.php?id=21622

[Battle_4_Peace]

True - e.g. me!

This man is an atheist. Let us debate him and let me show you how logical he is. firstly, the odds i gave you are facts. Non of your Darwinists can say anything about it. They have accepted it. Fill the state of Texas with silver dollars two feet deep (wonder how that feels?). Having only one dollar marked with the letter X, ask a blind man to find the marked dollar with one try. He would have one chance out of 10^17 chances to find it, (one with 17 zeros behind it). Now imagine the odds for forming a simple cell, one with 40,000 zeros? You would have to fill an area the size of our sun with quarters and find one with the mark while being blindfolded, and on just the first try! This is what he believes haha

Well, how scientific! The author clearly doesn't know what a theory is, and probably doesn't know very much about science either.

You don't even know the basics of science. Scientists and even the Evolutionists accepted that 1 cell is more complex than New York City. What are the odds of you winning the lottery every week for 80 years straight without missing once? The chances are 1 chance in 10^22,120, (a one followed by 29,120 zeros behind it). What are the chances of one thousand men putting the Rubic's cube together on the first try all at the same time? What about the classic analogy of six monkeys typing at a typewriter and producing a Sonnet of Shakespeare. Well, the odds for these are better that the odds for the evolutionists’ one "simple" cell being created by blind chance. All scientists know that the cell of an ameba is more complex than the Nassau’s space station. The chance that you win the lottery every week for the next 80 years is 2.420.796&#215; greater than the chance that 1 cell comes into existance by chance!

Right, and it's a figure that ultimately says nothing about the nature of reality. It's an estimate, one man's guess. >What on Earth was the point of all those 9s? Was that some sort of lame effort to make the article look vaguely scientific?<

George Sim Johnson said, 'Human DNA contains more organized information than the Encyclopedia Britannica. If the full text of the encyclopedia were to arrive in computer code from outer space, most people would regard this as proof of the existence of extraterrestrial intelligence. But when seen in nature, it is explained as the workings of random forces'. (George Sim Johnson 'Did Darwin Get it Right?' October 1999).

I am asking you a question. Can that OK come into existence by chance? Yes or no? You would probably say no. If 2 letters cannot come into existence without a Creator then how can the complete Encyclopedia Britannica (DNA) come into exitstence by chance? Use your logic. Is it possible?

Someone who understands elementary mathematics could do it quite easily. Again, we're talking about an estimate, as the Professor who made it would tell you if he were given the chance to speak for himself.

Why is the right one created and the left one not? Answer me? The left one can walk, laugh, love, play, talk and the right one cannot. How can the left one come into existence without a Creator and the right one cannot? That's why Ambrose Flemming said, 'The evolution theory is purely the product of the imagination'. (Dr. Ambrose Flemming, Pres. Philosophical Society of UK). Its just a theory, not proven.

Now we get to the interesting stuff. So far, the author has used quotes from scientists in ways that they most likely wouldn't approve of; now the author is actually giving us his own "arguments". I wonder what he's talking about though. What is it that atheists "known"?

You don't know anything about how complicated a cell is. Its accepted by scientists that a cell is more complicated than New York City. If this

Cannot come into existence without a creator, then how can a cell come into existence without a creator? See, this is logic. We Muslims are logical people. Which scientists do you know that don't agree with the numbers i gave you? They accept that the probability of the coincidental formation of a single protein is "as unlikely as the possibility of a monkey writing the history of humanity on a typewriter without making any mistakes". (Ali Demirsoy, Kal&#253;t&#253;m ve Evrim (Inheritance and Evolution), Ankara: Meteksan Publishing Co., 1984, p. 64). Dr. Ethredge said, '90% of the talk of evolution is sheer nonsense not founded on observation and wholly unsupported by fact. This Museum is full of proof of the utter falsity of their view'. (Dr. Ethredge, British Museum of Science.)

I'm not sure whether it's funny or pathetic that this writer thinks he's found a mathematical proof for the existence of god.

Look at this fool. People tell him that his father was a frog and a monkey and he is smiling. We do not believe in that theorie, like thousands of other scientists. Dr. David Berlinsky said, 'There are gaps in the fossil graveyard, places where there should be intermediate forms, but where there is nothing whatsoever instead. No paleontologist, denies that this is so. It is simply a fact, Darwin's theory and the fossil record are in conflict'.

I'd be amazed to find an evolutionist reading this article who didn't laugh at it and call it utterly worthless.

They will laugh at you, because you don't know about this things. They know this and they accept it. Show me who is wrong. Show me which calculation is wrong. You did not answer any of my points, you are only showing how brainless you are. Show me, which calculation is wrong. You don't even know the scienists i quote. Why do you think no Evolutionist dares to debate an Creationist? hehe he will be humiliated in a few minutes. Louis Bounoure said, 'Evolution is a fairy tale for grown ups. This theory has helped nothing in the progress of science. It is useless'. (Prof. Louis Bounoure, Director of Research, National Center of Scientific Research).

This is true, but it's taken completely out of context and made to serve a purpose which its original author wouldn't have intended. By the end of the article, the author is just gibbering inanities, which are hardly worth repeating. I'd be amazed if any non-Muslim was convinced by this unbelievably witless piece of writing. Thanks for posting it, though. I haven't laughed so much in ages!

HAHAHAHAHA this man is lauging at us hahahahhaa read above and tell me if you still laugh haha

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Evalution has been proven wrong by scientist who wanted to prove it right. Czgibson tell me what you think of this movie, cuz i really want your answer.

http://www.harunyahya.com/download/d...d.php?id=21622

Check out any of my posts on Harun Yahya for the answer.

Peace

[Hussein radi]

does anyone knows were is Adam(PBUH) grave is?

[czgibson]

Greetings,

firstly, the odds i gave you are facts.

No they aren't. They are estimates.

Non of your Darwinists can say anything about it. They have accepted it.

Nonsense.

Fill the state of Texas with silver dollars two feet deep (wonder how that feels?). Having only one dollar marked with the letter X, ask a blind man to find the marked dollar with one try. He would have one chance out of 10^17 chances to find it, (one with 17 zeros behind it). Now imagine the odds for forming a simple cell, one with 40,000 zeros? You would have to fill an area the size of our sun with quarters and find one with the mark while being blindfolded, and on just the first try! This is what he believes haha

What on Earth are you ranting about?

You don't even know the basics of science.

Thanks for telling me what I know and what I don't. You must be omniscient!

Well, the odds for these are better that the odds for the evolutionists’ one "simple" cell being created by blind chance.

Who says cells are created by blind chance?

All scientists know that the cell of an ameba is more complex than the Nassau’s space station.

Do you mean Nassau, the capital of the Bahamas? I didn't know they'd created a space station there.

I am asking you a question. Can that OK come into existence by chance? Yes or no?

Maybe.

If 2 letters cannot come into existence without a Creator then how can the complete Encyclopedia Britannica (DNA) come into exitstence by chance? Use your logic. Is it possible?

First of all, the Encyclopedia Britannica is not the same as DNA. Secondly, the Encyclopedia Britannica did not come into existence by chance, and no-one claims that it did. What point are you trying to make?

Why is the right one created and the left one not? Answer me? The left one can walk, laugh, love, play, talk and the right one cannot. How can the left one come into existence without a Creator and the right one cannot?

A baby is created by its parents. A sculpture of the serene primordial Buddha is created by a sculptor. That's simple enough, no?

You don't know anything about how complicated a cell is.

How do you know what I know and what I don't?

Cannot come into existence without a creator, then how can a cell come into existence without a creator? See, this is logic.

What exactly do you know about logic? Have you ever studied it?

Which scientists do you know that don't agree with the numbers i gave you?

It's not a question of agreeing with the numbers. It's whether or not scientists would agree with the use they've been put to in that article.

They accept that the probability of the coincidental formation of a single protein is "as unlikely as the possibility of a monkey writing the history of humanity on a typewriter without making any mistakes". (Ali Demirsoy, Kal&#253;t&#253;m ve Evrim (Inheritance and Evolution), Ankara: Meteksan Publishing Co., 1984, p. 64).

You're asserting that all scientists accept this arbitrary comparison. How do you know this to be the case?

Look at this fool.

You're calling me a fool now? Charming. What excellent debating skills you have!

People tell him that his father was a frog and a monkey and he is smiling.

No-one's ever told me that.

We do not believe in that theorie, like thousands of other scientists.

Who are vastly outnumbered by those scientists who accept evolution as a reality.

Dr. David Berlinsky said, 'There are gaps in the fossil graveyard, places where there should be intermediate forms, but where there is nothing whatsoever instead. No paleontologist, denies that this is so. It is simply a fact, Darwin's theory and the fossil record are in conflict'.

Wrong. Lots of paleontologists would dispute this, given that transitional forms have been found.

They will laugh at you, because you don't know about this things.

I'm happy to be laughed at, but, again, please don't tell me what I know or don't know.

Show me who is wrong. Show me which calculation is wrong.

You're missing the point. These calculations are neither right nor wrong, because we don't know what criteria have been used.

You did not answer any of my points, you are only showing how brainless you are.

You're just great! Keep up with the insults - that's bound to convince me...

You don't even know the scienists i quote.

Right - most of them haven't made much impact on the scientific community, have they?

Why do you think no Evolutionist dares to debate an Creationist? hehe he will be humiliated in a few minutes.

Haven't you ever seen these debates? They happen all the time. There are many on this very forum. Here are two of them:

Creationists dealt a blow

Creationist arguments vs. Evolution arguments

Louis Bounoure said, 'Evolution is a fairy tale for grown ups. This theory has helped nothing in the progress of science. It is useless'. (Prof. Louis Bounoure, Director of Research, National Center of Scientific Research).

Presumably this guy thinks all of modern biology is useless too?

HAHAHAHAHA this man is lauging at us hahahahhaa read above and tell me if you still laugh haha

I'm laughing at the pathetic article you posted, and at anyone who takes it seriously. I'm sure the majority of Muslims would be far more sensible than that, though.

Peace

[shaharoun]

What will you then get if not believe in Allah?
Narrated Anas bin Malik: The Prophet said, "At every womb Allah appoints an angel who says, 'O Lord! A drop of semen, O Lord! A clot. O Lord! A little lump of flesh." Then if Allah wishes (to complete) its creation, the angel asks, (O Lord!) Will it be a male or female, a wretched or a blessed, and how much will his provision be? And what will his age be?' So all that is written while the child is still in the mother's womb."
:w:

[Hussein radi]

Battle-4-peace don't waste your time on Czgibson. Those who strongly don't want to believe in Islam, Allah blinds them even more. you tried your best to show him the light, but the satan has clearly toke the best of him and fulfllied his mission, which is to make him a unbeliever. In the judgement day he will be one of the fools who would beg god for a 2nd chance. They will regret their foolish decisions.

[Hussein radi]

Czgibson, why are you in this website. This website is for people who believe in god and specially for muslims. Go to an athiest website or something cuz i really think you dont belong here.

[root]

Battle-4-peace don't waste your time on Czgibson. Those who strongly don't want to believe in Islam, Allah blinds them even more. you tried your best to show him the light, but the satan has clearly toke the best of him and fulfllied his mission, which is to make him a unbeliever. In the judgement day he will be one of the fools who would beg god for a 2nd chance. They will regret their foolish decisions

And of course you have no way of proving this as your simply trying to prove God through faith and very little knowledge of the actual sciences you are trying to criticise. Battle-4-peace more specifically, does not really understand the context of what he has "Cut and pasted". To then try and defend what he clearly does not understand has lead him to look a little silly to say the least.

Czgibson, why are you in this website. This website is for people who believe in god and specially for muslims. Go to an athiest website or something cuz i really think you dont belong here.

I think your wrong and your making it quite a habit. Quite frankly I would question the value of your contribution here before that of czgibdon.

[Hussein radi]

The day of judgement is beyound science. Allah is capable of anything, he created science and he can destroy it. He is beyound time, matter, and the whole univere. All he wants for humanity is to believe in him and his message. This world is a test, he wants us to believe what we don't understand and see. root, i encourage you to read the Qur'an, it contains scientific facts 1,400 years ago that were only recently discovered. And sciece back then was very Limited, so it is obvious that it is the word of god.

[cyberpi]

Evolution is a proven fact of this world and nearly every biologist or medical doctor understands it. If you deny evolution then you deny science. Everyone who walks knows gravity and yet we are still able to walk, drive, jump and even fly... so why should we deny and be threatened by evolution? It is a lifeless force. Thank Allah that we can overcome the usually destructive force of evolution... every single day. Things that naturally evolve the best are viruses, diseases, cancers, polution, evil ideas, sins, hatred, lies, retribution. Medicine often uses evolution to try to test drugs and operative procedures to help people, growing and destroying billions of mice and small animals. If you gamble and experiment enough you will eventually learn a pattern, but at what cost? Most engineers and programmers study and learn from their failures but rarely do they set out to build a thousand buildings or write a million programs just to see and learn which one is the best. You learn the laws and then design with them. Allah created the laws and designed with them... there is nothing to fear in evolution. It is a force that balances itself out.

If a person does not believe in creation, then just ask them what is responsible for, what chooses what they do in a day. The laws of the universe? The flip of a coin?

[Battle_4_Peace]

I am still waiting for he refutations. He did not refute anything of my posts. He only denied a few things, and he doesn't know that all his scientists accepted those numbers. Let me tell you what a few of the greatest scientists on earth said.


Richard Dawkins said, "The more statistically improbable a thing is, the less we can believe that it just happened by blind chance. Superficially, the obvious alternative to chance is an intelligent Designer." (Professor Richard Dawkins, an atheist).

Dr. George Wald said, 'I will not accept that philosophically because I do not want to believe in God, therefore I choose to believe in that which I know is scientifically impossible, spontaneous generation arising to evolution'. (Dr. George Wald, evolutionist, Professor Emeritus of Biology at the University at Harvard, Nobel Prize winner in Biology.)

George Gallup said, "I could prove God statistically; take the human body alone; the chance that all the functions of the individual would just happen, is a statistical monstrosity." (George Gallup, the famous statistician)

Professor Harold Morowitz said, "The probability for the chance of formation of the smallest, simplest form of living organism known is 1 to 10-340,000,000. This number is 1 to 10 to the 340 millionth power! The size of this figure is truly staggering, since there is only supposed to be approximately 10-80 (10 to the 80th power) electrons in the whole universe!" (Professor Harold Morowitz)

Dr. Michael Denton said, "The complexity of the simplest known type cell is so great that it is impossible to accept that such an object could have been thrown together by some kind of freakish, vastly improbable event. Such an occurrence would be indistinguishable from a miracle." (Dr. Michael Denton, molecular biochemist)

Dr. Nils Heribert-Nilsson said, "A close inspection discovers an empirical impossibility to be inherent in the idea of evolution." (Dr. Nils Heribert-Nilsson, Swedish botanist and geneticist, English Summary of Synthetische Artbildung, pg. 1142-43, 1186.)


What do they say? They accept the numbers i gave you. I challenge you to show me scientists who denie this calculations. We are still waiting for your refutations. So come on, we are waiting!

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I am still waiting for he refutations. He did not refute anything of my posts.

Do you want to try reading my post?

He only denied a few things, and he doesn't know that all his scientists accepted those numbers.

I didn't know I possessed any scientists...

Richard Dawkins said, "The more statistically improbable a thing is, the less we can believe that it just happened by blind chance. Superficially, the obvious alternative to chance is an intelligent Designer." (Professor Richard Dawkins, an atheist).

Do you even understand what that quote means? Do you really think the world's most famous atheist actually believes in an intelligent designer?

Try reading the quote in context, to see what point Dawkins is actually making (it comes from an article entitled "The Necessity of Darwinism"):

The more statistically improbable a thing is, the less can we believe that it just happened by blind chance. Superficially the obvious alternative to chance is an intelligent Designer. But Charles Darwin showed how it is possible for blind physical forces to mimic the effects of conscious design, and, by operating as a cumulative filter of chance variations, to lead eventual to organized and adaptive complexity, to mosquitoes and mammoths, to humans and therefore, indirectly, to books and computers.

Darwin's theory is now supported by all the available relevant evidence, and its truth is not doubted by any serious modern biologist...

Dr. George Wald said, 'I will not accept that philosophically because I do not want to believe in God, therefore I choose to believe in that which I know is scientifically impossible, spontaneous generation arising to evolution'. (Dr. George Wald, evolutionist, Professor Emeritus of Biology at the University at Harvard, Nobel Prize winner in Biology.)

He's talking about abiogenesis, which is essentially a mystery.

George Gallup said, "I could prove God statistically; take the human body alone; the chance that all the functions of the individual would just happen, is a statistical monstrosity." (George Gallup, the famous statistician)

Anyone who thinks god's existence can be proven has not thought about it for long enough.

Professor Harold Morowitz said, "The probability for the chance of formation of the smallest, simplest form of living organism known is 1 to 10-340,000,000. This number is 1 to 10 to the 340 millionth power! The size of this figure is truly staggering, since there is only supposed to be approximately 10-80 (10 to the 80th power) electrons in the whole universe!" (Professor Harold Morowitz)

More of these arbitrary figures you seem so impressed with. Even if this figure were accurate (and there's no way of determining whether that's the case or not), so what? The fact is, life has arisen on this planet. However unlikely it is, that does not prove there was a creator.

Imagine if you took part in a lottery. The chances of you buying the winning ticket are 50 million to one. Amazingly, you win. A friend comes up to you and says, "Ah, you must have rigged the lottery, because the chance of you winning was so small." According to your reasoning, the friend would definitely be right. What do you think?

Dr. Michael Denton said, "The complexity of the simplest known type cell is so great that it is impossible to accept that such an object could have been thrown together by some kind of freakish, vastly improbable event. Such an occurrence would be indistinguishable from a miracle." (Dr. Michael Denton, molecular biochemist)

The point is nobody knows how life arose to begin with. You've got an explanation that was formulated by primitive people thousands of years ago, and you're happy with that; the position that modern humanity, post-Enlightenment, finds itself in is that the god-hypothesis is truly past its sell-by date, but there is still no convincing explanation of abiogenesis.

Dr. Nils Heribert-Nilsson said, "A close inspection discovers an empirical impossibility to be inherent in the idea of evolution." (Dr. Nils Heribert-Nilsson, Swedish botanist and geneticist, English Summary of Synthetische Artbildung, pg. 1142-43, 1186.)

I wonder what he's talking about? It's a pity we've only got the quote out of context - perhaps we'll never know.

What do they say? They accept the numbers i gave you. I challenge you to show me scientists who denie this calculations. We are still waiting for your refutations. So come on, we are waiting!

I've already explained why it is irrelevant who accepts these arbitrary figures; most scientists have far more important things to do than discuss whether Professor X's estimate on the chance of a primitive cell developing is accurate or not.

I don't know if I can cope with this schoolboy level of debate. If you choose to ignore everything I've written, then what is the point of me writing it? Why don't you try reading some of the answers I've given to your questions, and how about answering a few of mine?

Peace

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Czgibson, why are you in this website.

To learn about Islam and to discuss issues with Muslims. So far I've been made to feel very welcome, and I've learned a lot.

Why are you on this website?

This website is for people who believe in god and specially for muslims.

Maybe you should tell that to the mods and admins, who openly welcome people of all faiths and none.

Go to an athiest website or something cuz i really think you dont belong here.

Thanks. I've been on the forum for about nine months and you're the first person who's told me to get lost.

Peace to you, Sir.

[Battle_4_Peace]

Imagine if you took part in a lottery. The chances of you buying the winning ticket are 50 million to one. Amazingly, you win. A friend comes up to you and says, "Ah, you must have rigged the lottery, because the chance of you winning was so small." According to your reasoning, the friend would definitely be right. What do you think?

The chance that you win the lottery every week for the next 80 years is 2.420.796× greater than the chance that 1 cell comes into existance by chance! You haven't refuted anything. You only gave your opinion. Who are you? I have given the quotes of the greatest scientists of this time. We don't need your opinion, just refute that those scientists are wrong and the give me proofs that a cell come into ixistence by chance. That's it. We are still waiting.

[Muslim Soldier]

Only undedicated and/or closed minded people assume that evolution denies god. I have one simple question. 100 million year old rocks contain dinosaur bones but we don’t find 100 year old elephant bones. Today we have elephants but no dinosaurs. How can that be?:rollseyes

You beleive God created us yet yiu deny the fact that Allah has power to make new organisms out of nothing. The laws of thermodynamics dont work with Allah.
:giggling:

So if Allah wanted he could make the dinosaurs extinct and have elephants appear out of thin air. Kun fauakun.

To understand better read about the cambium explosion

[czgibson]

Greetings Battle 4 Peace,

Since you obviously haven't understood anything I've written, and have chosen not to answer any of my questions, I'll say goodbye now.

Let me know if you manage to convince any non-Muslims with your banal arguments!

Peace

[Muslim Soldier]

czgibson you may have pure intentions at heart but when you want to learn open up your heart dont be biased

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
I'd like to request that all members be respectful in discussions. No one has the right to tell someone else that they are not welcome on the forum. This forum is for everyone to learn and understand Islam and discuss with other Muslims. Please drop the insults.

:w:

[------]

czgibson you may have pure intentions at heart but when you want to learn open up your heart dont be biased

Well I agree with this point :)

[Hussein radi]

Czgibson, whoever believes in god is right and whoever believes in athesium is wrong. There are billions of people who believe in god and few million people believe in athesium. You believe that all this occured by chance, tell me what are the chances of you picking a human who believes in athesium rather then human who believes in god.

[------]

Czgibson, whoever believes in god is right and whoever believes in athesium is wrong. There are billions of people who believe in god and few million people believe in athesium. You believe that all this occured by chance, tell me what are the chances of you picking a human who believes in athesium rather then human who believes in god.

I'm not trying to argue against you brother, but people used to believe that the world was flat....a long time ago...

So to use the above argument is baseless on the main argument...If u gets me...

[Trumble]

Some people reading these lines who have so far accepted the theory of evolution as a scientific explanation may suspect that these numbers are exaggerated and do not reflect the true facts. That is not the case, these are definite and concrete facts. No evolutionist can object to these numbers.

Just a word on these numbers - czgibson is quite right.


They are most certainly not "definite and concrete facts". Whatever the mathematics involved, the accuracy of the result depends on the accuracy of the input, and in all these cases that is barely more than pure guesswork - we remain unsure as to what factors were involved at all, let alone which were the most important, and what the probabilities actually are/were. Virtually any specialist is likely to disagree with some of the 'input' here, so of course they can be disputed - and rightly so. That doesn't mean that the numbers aren't very large, and the probabilities very improbable. They probably are, but the figures quoted have nothing like the authority - or the acceptance - that Battle_4_Peace suggests.

The implication that evolution/neo-Darwinism has somehow been "proven" to be false, but that this is somehow suppressed in the interests of promoting atheism is complete rubbish. IF the point is ever reached at which empirical evidence suggests evolution as a scientific theory should be rejected, it WILL be rejected. That might mean somebody comes up with a better theory (better because it better fits the empirical evidence), or it may just be a single piece of evidence that shows it to be false, and that a return to the "drawing-board" is required. But neither has happened, or really looks like happening at present.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Czgibson, whoever believes in god is right and whoever believes in athesium is wrong.

What an amazing argument! How long did it take you to come up with that?

There are billions of people who believe in god and few million people believe in athesium.

This is an example of the well-known fallacy argumentum ad populum. I could use the same fallacy to make the following baseless argument: "there are more non-Muslims in the world than Muslims; therefore the non-Muslims must be right."

You believe that all this occured by chance,

Do I?

Why are you telling me what you think I believe?

tell me what are the chances of you picking a human who believes in athesium rather then human who believes in god.

I'm sure it's more likely that I'll pick someone who believes in god, since more people believe in god than don't. What point are you trying to make?

Peace

[------]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Hussein radi
Czgibson, whoever believes in god is right and whoever believes in athesium is wrong.

What an amazing argument! How long did it take you to come up with that?

Czgibson, that's how some Muslims think.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Czgibson, that's how some Muslims think.

I don't doubt that, but it's an opinion and not a proper argument.

Peace

[------]

I don't doubt that, but it's an opinion and not a proper argument.

Well...Its an argument from a Muslims point of view.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Well...Its an argument from a Muslims point of view.

An argument, if it's a good one, should have the same logical and persuasive force no matter what opinion you have.

Peace

[------]

An argument, if it's a good one, should have the same logical and persuasive force no matter what opinion you have.

It has enough logic and force, as it has the Qur'an and Hadith by its side :D

Peace :peace:

[Battle_4_Peace]

Let us ask brother czgibson if this words can come into existence by chance. Yes or No? I'll wait for you answer.

[Hussein radi]

czgibson, There are more people who believe in god then those who don't, you admitted it your self. so, how can they be wrong. My point is that god exists. And for your information Islam is the fastest growing religion.

[Malaikah]

:sl:

i think some people here should stop being so disrespectful and talking about czgibson as if he cant see your posts..

i personally dont see the problem with evolution, as long as it is not applied to humans. as far as i know, Allah swt said that he created adam... thus man did not evolve... but are there any references that say that he also created plants, trees, bacteria, animals etc... isnt it possible that they sould have evolved with Gods help?

does any one have any evidence that says clearly that Allah swt created life other than humans, rather than letting it evolve?

:w:

[IbnAbdulHakim]

:sl:

i think some people here should stop being so disrespectful and talking about czgibson as if he cant see your posts..

czgibson is actually very polite, lets not be rude to hiM :)

[Battle_4_Peace]

I am still waiting for his response :thankyou:

[HeiGou]

czgibson, There are more people who believe in god then those who don't, you admitted it your self. so, how can they be wrong. My point is that god exists. And for your information Islam is the fastest growing religion.

Well I am not Mr Gibson, but Truth is not decided by democratic vote. This is not unknown to religious people: Noah and his sons were the only people on Earth whoe feared God. And so God saved them. Everyone else was wrong. One man was right. Or would you argue otherwise?

And Islam is still not the fastest growing religion in the world.

[HeiGou]

The day of judgement is beyound science. Allah is capable of anything, he created science and he can destroy it. He is beyound time, matter, and the whole univere. All he wants for humanity is to believe in him and his message. This world is a test, he wants us to believe what we don't understand and see. root, i encourage you to read the Qur'an, it contains scientific facts 1,400 years ago that were only recently discovered. And sciece back then was very Limited, so it is obvious that it is the word of god.

Really? Is that an Islamic belief? Why, then, didn't He create us in His sight so that we all could see Him and know Him and hence worship Him? Why has He placed barriers in the way of belief? I do not know what He wants but surely logic tells us He wants something else other than merely our belief in Him.

[Battle_4_Peace]

Really? Is that an Islamic belief? Why, then, didn't He create us in His sight so that we all could see Him and know Him and hence worship Him? Why has He placed barriers in the way of belief? I do not know what He wants but surely logic tells us He wants something else other than merely our belief in Him.

You can't even look at the sun, His creation, how do you want to see God?

Well I am not Mr Gibson, but Truth is not decided by democratic vote. This is not unknown to religious people: Noah and his sons were the only people on Earth whoe feared God. And so God saved them. Everyone else was wrong. One man was right. Or would you argue otherwise? And Islam is still not the fastest growing religion in the world.

Nowhere does the Qur'an say that the complete earth was under water. Noah did 950 years Dawa, he called people to Islam, they did not accept. Allah drowned his people, not the entire world, this is unscienitific. He only took the animals that were needed, like sheep, cows, chicken's etc. You can als answer the question i asked czgibson. Can those letters come into existence by chance, Yes or No?

[HeiGou]

You can't even look at the sun, His creation, how do you want to see God?

I am quite happy not seeing God, but clearly I have not been given the undeniable proof some people have. God has not appeared to me. Nor has Gabriel. If God merely wanted us to praise Him, surely that would be a built in function? He must want something more complicated (like we should freely choose to praise Him or something).

Nowhere does the Qur'an say that the complete earth was under water. Noah did 950 years Dawa, he called people to Islam, they did not accept. Allah drowned his people, not the entire world, this is unscienitific. He only took the animals that were needed, like sheep, cows, chicken's etc. You can als answer the question i asked czgibson. Can those letters come into existence by chance, Yes or No?

A lot of things are unscientific including any claim that all the sheep and cows have been through a genetic bottleneck of just two animals. I will take your word for what the Quran says (although chickens come from Malay and so at the time there probably were none when Noah was around). The point remain that just because people did not accept Noah's call it does not mean that Islam is false.

Theoretically those letters might come into existence by chance, but the odds of it are very small.

[czgibson]

Greetings Battle 4 Peace,

Let us ask brother czgibson if this words can come into existence by chance. Yes or No? I'll wait for you answer.

Listen, I am only prepared to discuss things with you if you will agree to read my posts carefully and answer the questions I have put to you in response to your own questions. This debate is unlikely to progress in a useful fashion unless you and I both agree to do that.

You have made much of your claim that I have not answered your questions. If you read my posts carefully, you will see that I have done my best to do so. I do not yet see any evidence that you have taken this on board yet.

If you have an issue with some of the answers I've given, then by all means bring it up - I'll be happy to discuss it with you - but please don't just ignore everything I write.

Do we have a deal? If you can confirm that we do, then I'll be happy to answer your latest question.

Greetings hussein radi,

czgibson, There are more people who believe in god then those who don't, you admitted it your self. so, how can they be wrong.

As I said in my last post, this is an example of the fallacy argumentum ad populum. The fact that a majority of people believe something does not mean it is necessarily true. Two thousand years ago, nearly everyone believed that the Sun went around the Earth. Were they right?

My point is that god exists. And for your information Islam is the fastest growing religion.

I know what your point is, I just don't happen to agree.

As for Islam being the fastest growing religion, we've had this discussion on the forum before, and that claim is highly debatable to say the least.

Greetings cheese and Abd'Majid,

i think some people here should stop being so disrespectful and talking about czgibson as if he cant see your posts..

czgibson is actually very polite, lets not be rude to hiM

What can I say? I'm touched. Thank you. :thankyou:

Peace

[------]

I know what your point is, I just don't happen to agree.

But what r ur reasons that u dont agree?

[czgibson]

Greetings Islamic Kuri,

But what r ur reasons that u dont agree?

Haven't we met before on the forum?

Many, many of my posts are devoted to this precise topic. Have a look through the threads discussing atheism or the existence of god and you'll find me giving many reasons why I am an atheist.

The most important of these is that I have never come across any evidence whatsoever that supports the idea that god exists.

Peace

[------]

The most important of these is that I have never come across any evidence whatsoever that supports the idea that god exists.

I don't understand you czgibson. Here, in this world, there are many things that are shown that could not have come about merely by chance or human beings...then y do u not believe in God??

[Kittygyal]

Ofcourse God Exsists Cause When He You Die He Makes You Die And When Your Alive He Makes You Alive!

So Ofcourse He Exsists

W.salam

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I don't understand you czgibson. Here, in this world, there are many things that are shown that could not have come about merely by chance or human beings...then y do u not believe in God??

This is essentially the argument from design once again, but what do you mean by "by chance"?

Peace

[------]

Greetings,


This is essentially the argument from design once again, but what do you mean by "by chance"?

Peace

As for the argument in design - I've done that in RE A Level. :rollseyes

By Chance, I mean that this world, humans, plants, animals....It is a bit far-fetched to assume that they all came about by chance...is it not...:?

[root]

As for the argument in design - I've done that in RE A Level.

Cool. Such issues should be for RE & not science.

By Chance, I mean that this world, humans, plants, animals....It is a bit far-fetched to assume that they all came about by chance...is it not...

Tell me, if we can't achieve something within 100 - 1000 years. Is it impossible to ever achieve? Yes or no would be cool

[------]

Tell me, if we can't achieve something within 100 - 1000 years. Is it impossible to ever achieve? Yes or no would be cool

Could you expand on that please...I didnt quite understand the question...

[root]

Could you expand on that please...I didnt quite understand the question...

It's a straight question.

[------]

Tell me, if we can't achieve something within 100 - 1000 years. Is it impossible to ever achieve?

Depends in what context u r talking about. But in general, I would say no.

[root]

Depends in what context u r talking about. But in general, I would say no.

Would you apply the same answer under the context of knowledge?

[Silver Pearl]

Tell me, if we can't achieve something within 100 - 1000 years. Is it impossible to ever achieve? Yes or no would be cool

With mutation nothing is impossible to achieve root and i'm sure you're aware of that. In Humans you have klinefelter's syndrome, cytosis fibrosis, sickle cell anaemia etc. That is the result of mutation.....that is not to say that all mutations are negative. In this case the likelyhood of something gradually evolving with the aid of random mutation (which really isn't random) and natural selection is quite into a complex, well functioning, conscience and intellect being coming about is far-fetched.

It is possible you can achieve something but there is a high chance of that thing dying, and as it dies everything would have to be started from scratch. Ah the frustration....

Its not a very simple question now root.....

Peace out

[root]

With mutation nothing is impossible to achieve root and i'm sure you're aware of that. In Humans you have klinefelter's syndrome, cytosis fibrosis, sickle cell anaemia etc. That is the result of mutation.....that is not to say that all mutations are negative. In this case the likelyhood of something gradually evolving with the aid of random mutation (which really isn't random) and natural selection is quite into a complex, well functioning, conscience and intellect being coming about is far-fetched.

I never mentioned mutational change, what was your point since mutational change is only a small part of evolution. I am not referencing evolution at all. Don't presume to pre-empt me please:

Regards

Root

[HeiGou]

Here, in this world, there are many things that are shown that could not have come about merely by chance or human beings...then y do u not believe in God??

If something could be shown could not have come about through natural processes - a little more than chance - then it would be good evidence to suggest the existence of God. But I know of no such thing and the sensible presumption must be that God does not play an active role in the day-to-day management of the Universe.

[------]

But I know of no such thing and the sensible presumption must be that God does not play an active role in the day-to-day management of the Universe.

The Universe is a good start.

[HeiGou]

The Universe is a good start.

But there is no need to assume that it could not have happened naturally. In fact scientists have become very good at explaining what happened. Let me ask you - every time you get into a plane or go to a doctor you are relying on the knowledge of Western scientists. Do you think that perhaps people who can build nuclear weapons and polio vaccines have a track record in being right about science?

[------]

Let me ask you - every time you get into a plane or go to a doctor you are relying on the knowledge of Western scientists.

Your erm....point?

Do you think that perhaps people who can build nuclear weapons and polio vaccines have a track record in being right about science?

I don't know about that. All I know is that the universe is too ordered to have come about by chance.

[Hussein radi]

when the big bang exploded it perfectly calculated how the univers would come about, if there was one tiny miscalculation, then the univers will not be as it is today and life will not exist. That means this big bang was accurent enough to design and make earth. And earth is at the best possible region on the entire universe, not only for us and animals to survive in, but also to explore the universe. If god did not creat all this, then who did, do you honestly believe it is all merely chance?

I am also curious, what do athiest say about the big bang? and what do athiest say about life?

[root]

when the big bang exploded it perfectly calculated how the univers would come about, if there was one tiny miscalculation, then the univers will not be as it is today and life will not exist. That means this big bang was accurent enough to design and make earth. And earth is at the best possible region on the entire universe, not only for us and animals to survive in, but also to explore the universe. If god did not creat all this, then who did, do you honestly believe it is all merely chance?

That is a fallacy.......

I am also curious, what do athiest say about the big bang? and what do athiest say about life?

The big bang was a big bang. The origins of life is one of the biggest scientific mysteries of science today.

[Hussein radi]

So it just happend? it made it self? What a laugh!

[Hussein radi]

It is not a false statement, many scientists researched it and came up with this conclusion. That is why the big bang is accepted everywhere. Prove me wrong i dare you.

[Hussein radi]

Here is the proof. Please click at the video.

http://www.harunyahya.com/m_video_de...hp?api_id=1251

[HeiGou]

Your erm....point?

I don't know about that. All I know is that the universe is too ordered to have come about by chance.

My point is that you seem to have enormous faith in people like me when it comes to getting on a plane protected from the cold and air by a few millimeters of tinfoil, but not when it comes to the Universe. Why?

The Universe is not too ordered to have come about by "chance" as you put it. The Universe is not particularly well ordered at all. Nor does it show any particular degree of design. Take, say, men's nipples. Breasts, if the Mods will forgive me talking of such a subject, have a function for women. They do not in men. Why do men have nipples if men were "designed" first? An evolutionary approach would say that Evolution is not directed, it is blind, and it does not find "ideal" solutions but workable ones. Women have them, it is cheaper and simpler for men to have nipples as both sexes can share the same DNA. Why would a sensible God bother?

[HeiGou]

when the big bang exploded it perfectly calculated how the univers would come about, if there was one tiny miscalculation, then the univers will not be as it is today and life will not exist. That means this big bang was accurent enough to design and make earth. And earth is at the best possible region on the entire universe, not only for us and animals to survive in, but also to explore the universe. If god did not creat all this, then who did, do you honestly believe it is all merely chance?

But you are making a Big Mistake. We are here already. So of course the Universe, when it was created, must have been created just right for us. Of all the possible Universes that were created, this one was, and it is obvious that it has to be just right for us or we would not be here. That is not a sign of Design. That is self-evident from the fact we are here. Suppose we went to Cairo's Old Quarter and put on some blind-folds and turned left or right at every corner as we felt like, and after half an hour took off our blind-folds. We coudl say that God steered us to where we ended up. Or we could say that we would inevitably have ended up somewhere, and one spot is as good as another. There is nothing miraculous about the path we took here as, obviously, we had to take some path to get here.

What makes you think that the Earth is the best place for us and animals to live in? How do you know given we have not traveled to other Solar Systems yet? And God has designed the Universe, if indeed He did, specifically to prevent us exploring it as far as I can see, so what do you mean?

I am also curious, what do athiest say about the big bang? and what do athiest say about life?

Atheists say the Big Bang looks a lot like Genesis but it isn't. At a guess.

[------]

Why would a sensible God bother?

So now you're designing the attributes of God?!

[HeiGou]

So now you're designing the attributes of God?!

Perish the thought. But surely we are not only allowed to think about God's Creation and His decisions, we are obligated to do so?

So why do you think he gave men nipples?

[------]

But surely we are not only allowed to think about God's Creation and His decisions, we are obligated to do so?

You are allowed to think about it, not refute it.

So why do you think he gave men nipples?

Ask God Himself on Judgement Day.

[HeiGou]

You are allowed to think about it, not refute it.

Well it does seem I have gone a little too far, but how do you know where to draw the line between what is acceptable to think about and what is not?

Ask God Himself on Judgement Day.

You have no opinion or curiousity yourself?

[------]

but how do you know where to draw the line between what is acceptable to think about and what is not?

When you start questioning God, You've gone too far.

You have no opinion or curiousity yourself?

No I do not as I accept God for who He is and His attributes.

[------]

so HeiGou dusent believ in God?...or duz he?

Dunno....:rollseyes

[FatimaAsSideqah]

as-salaam alaykum

We Muslims are only accept what Our Lord is or who He is. We are believe in Unseen and also believe in Allah is nearer than our thoughts.

Our creed is to believe in Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, the Day of Judgment, and Fate whether good or bad.

Belief in Allah's Lordship, Oneness, and Attributes:

We believe in Allah's divinity; that is he is the Lord, the Creator, the Sovereign, and the Manager of all affairs.

We believe in Allah's god ship; that is, He is the true God and every other so-called deity is false.

We believe in His names and attributes, that is He has the most magnificent names and the sublime perfect attributes.

We believe in His oneness in all of this, that is, He has no associate in His divinity, His God ship, His names, or His attributes. Allah says in the Qur'an: "He is the Lord of the heavens and the Earth and all that is in between them, so worship Him and be patient in His worship; do you know any equal to Him?" (19:65).

We believe that He is "Allah there is no God but He, the Living, the Everlasting. Slumber does not seize Him, neither sleep; to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the Earth. Who is there that shall intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they do not encompass anything of His knowledge except what He wills. His throne extends over the heavens and the Earth, the preservation of them does not burden Him; He is the High, the Great" (2:255).

We believe that "He is Allah, there is no god but He, the Knower of the Unseen and the Visible. He is the Most Gracious, Most Merciful. He is Allah, there is no God but He, the King, the Holy One, the Source of Peace, the Keeper of Faith, the Guardian, the Almighty, the Subduer, the Sublime. Glory be to Allah above what they associate with Him. He is Allah, the Creator, the Maker, the Shaper. His are the most beautiful Names. All that is in the heavens and the Earth glorifies Him. He is the Almighty, the Wise" (59:22-4). ¥ We believe that to Him belongs the Kingdom of the Heavens and the Earth: "He creates what He pleases. He gives, to whom He wills, females, and He gives, to whom He wills, males, or He couples them, males and females; and He makes whom He wills barren. Surely, He is the Knowing, the Powerful" (42:49-50).

wa-salaam alaykum

[FatimaAsSideqah]

hey som hot discussions goin on here....

so HeiGou dusent believ in God?...or duz he?

Might be..but better ask him..Heigou always thoughts negative to Muslims's belief in Allah and His Words..

[FatimaAsSideqah]

^ then better to wait for his comment.

[FatimaAsSideqah]

Heigou..why not you introduce us about yourself? For example your religion, where you from and etc...because it seems unfair because we Muslims put introduce about ourself in here forum..is your life was private? Why you come here to put yours thoughts of negative? Or put your comments of your points of views on here then put thought to be postive!!

Peace

[------]

Heigou..why not you introduce us about yourself?

Good point.

[cool_jannah]

heiguo
and my other 'enlightened' athiest friends think that Hitler's death or whatever might have happened to him before his death, did justice to all the crimes that he commited, killing innocent people. Do you think he should be left alone like that? Only how many million people did he kill?
only cowards would think that they have escaped the accountability to their Lord. Hitler is just one example, there are thousands of other reasons to convince you that you will be ressurected back to life, after you die. Only if you used your head once in a while to ponder about it.
Everythin created will perish! Death was also created! Death will perish in the Afterlife!
Hieguo, please let me know what you have to say, if you believe that you won't be ressurected back to life?

[root]

Originally Posted by Hussein radi

when the big bang exploded it perfectly calculated how the univers would come about,

Not true

if there was one tiny miscalculation, then the univers will not be as it is today

Not true

and life will not exist.

Why not?

That means this big bang was accurent enough to design and make earth.

Design and make. Would you care to roughly explain how the earth was made?

And earth is at the best possible region on the entire universe,

Rubbish

not only for us and animals to survive in, but also to explore the universe.

How so

If god did not creat all this, then who did, do you honestly believe it is all merely chance?

Why do you need a creator

[HeiGou]

and my other 'enlightened' athiest friends think that Hitler's death or whatever might have happened to him before his death, did justice to all the crimes that he commited, killing innocent people. Do you think he should be left alone like that? Only how many million people did he kill?

I doubt that many atheists would accept that Hitler's death did justice for what he did. What do you mean "left alone"? Do you mean, do I think that he ought to be pursued in the next life and punished there? Well yes. But do I think it is likely that he would be punished in the next life? Now that is an interesting question. What I would like happen and what does happen are two very different issues. Whether or not I think that death is sufficient plays no part in determining whether or not punishment in the next life occurs.

But there is an Islamic-related question here - if before he died, after killing millions, Hitler had said "There is no God but God and Muhammed is His prophet", do you think he ought not be punished in this life or the next?

only cowards would think that they have escaped the accountability to their Lord.

Really? Why do you think that? Surely only cowards do not do evil because they fear the consequences in the next life?

Hieguo, please let me know what you have to say, if you believe that you won't be ressurected back to life?

Well I would like to believe that. But I see no evidence of it or even any good reason to think it will or does occur.

[cool_jannah]

Why do you need a creator

what a question. excellent thinking root.
yeeeeaaaa...why do you need a creator? :?
to have created something that exists perhaps.
last time i checked things don't come into existence by themselves.
somebody has to create things for them to exist.
that was really dumb root. what part of your body do you think from root?

[HeiGou]

How can you be absolutely sure that say a male nipple has no function whatsoever? Surely, it is only based on what scientific understanding that has been amassed up till now, whats to say later you find that the nipple does indeed have a function?

I am not absolutely sure. That is the great thing about science. But it appears to have no useful evolutionary or biological role. It may be that in the future it will happen that scientists will discover a use. But I wonder if that would be Islamic - as the main use I know of is erotic. Do you agree that Islam has nothing to say about the usefulness of the male nipple and that it does appear to be useless?

[HeiGou]

When you start questioning God, You've gone too far.

So is it acceptable to ask why God gave men nipples if you accept that God did give men nipples? If so.....

No I do not as I accept God for who He is and His attributes.

Well strictly speaking you accept Him for what you are told He is and what you are told are His attributes.

But that is a minor point.

[HeiGou]

and he can be a pain in th neck:okay:
hav i judged correctly????

I think even my Mother might say the pain I give is located a little lower!

But that was very generous of you. Accuracy is another thing perhaps!

[cool_jannah]

I doubt that many atheists would accept that Hitler's death did justice for what he did. What do you mean "left alone"? Do you mean, do I think that he ought to be pursued in the next life and punished there? Well yes.

ok. so you do believe you will be brought back to life. or yoy think it's just that bad people?

But do I think it is likely that he would be punished in the next life? Now that is an interesting question. What I would like happen and what does happen are two very different issues. Whether or not I think that death is sufficient plays no part in determining whether or not punishment in the next life occurs.

totally irrevelant to the topic. i am not asking you if he will be punished or not. my point was that he will definitely be ressurected and be accountable for.

But there is an Islamic-related question here - if before he died, after killing millions, Hitler had said "There is no God but God and Muhammed is His prophet", do you think he ought not be punished in this life or the next?

If he says the Shahada, the fire of Jahannam will become Haram for him.
Remember all sins are forgiven by Allah, no matter how much they are except for the sin of associating partners with Allah. There is no forgiveness for that. A person like Hitler, having done atrocities and crimes unimaginable could be forgiven by Allah, if he took the Shahadah before his death.
It is upon Allah to decide if he will punish him or not. That's none of our business to worry about.

[HeiGou]

Actually, it is irrelevant to point out the Islamic perspective on the male nipple. The topic at hand is about whether God exists or not and if he does exist, then why has he created a nipple with no apparent usefulness.

I don't know. If scientists did discover a use for it I do not doubt that some one would trumpet it as one of the scientific miracles of the Quran! Besides if it was useful surely God would have pointed it out in some way - just as He said not to eat pork a long time before people discovered parasites.

Looking around me today I see a world filled with items that have been "invented" to make life more convenient for mankind. The reason I put invented in quotation marks is due to the fact that it is perhaps more reasonable to say that due to the discovery of certain principles, inventions such as the television, microwave ovens, keys and even the computer you are using to read this have come about.
So tell me why is it that these principles exist to be discovered? Why are complicated mathematical theorems so "perfect"? How do you explain that?

There does seem to be an underlying beauty to the universe that can be expressed mathematically. I do not know what that is an argument for. Perhaps among all the possible mathematic proofs the ones that so many mathematicians like are those that are beautiful and elegant? But there has to be some underlying principle to the Universe. Does it mean that expresses some Higher Power's design? I'd like to know why you think it does without falling into one or other of the obvious logical fallacies.

[HeiGou]

ok. so you do believe you will be brought back to life. or yoy think it's just that bad people?

Totally irrevelant to the topic. i am not asking you if he will be punished or not. my point was that he will definitely be ressurected and be accountable for.

Actually it was not because it was attached to the first answer. I would like to think many things. That does not make them true. "Ought" and "Is" are two separate issues.

If he says the Shahada, the fire of Jahannam will become Haram for him.
Remember all sins are forgiven by Allah, no matter how much they are except for the sin of associating partners with Allah. There is no forgiveness for that. A person like Hitler, having done atrocities and crimes unimaginable could be forgiven by Allah, if he took the Shahadah before his death.
It is upon Allah to decide if he will punish him or not. That's none of our business to worry about.

Yes. This does seem an odd perspective. So if my Grandmother does what she grew up doing and what all the women in her family have done since as long as records have existed, even if she does it in ignorance of Islamic law, she will burn in Hell. But someone who murders millions will be forgiven. It complicates issues because whenever we talk about actions forbidden in Islam we have to remember that whatever we are talking about it is not such a great sin as burning incense!

[cool_jannah]

I don't know. If scientists did discover a use for it I do not doubt that some one would trumpet it as one of the scientific miracles of the Quran! Besides if it was useful surely God would have pointed it out in some way - just as He said not to eat pork a long time before people discovered parasites.

Just like any other orientalist approach. Why do you care so much about the nipples of men when you don't understand the wisdom and purpose of your own creation. Have you ever appriciated the gifts of your intellect, health, eyesight, hands, tongue, your wealth, family and so on?
Heiguo, why do you think you are prevelaged to hava all these blessings(assumingly) while certain people are not? are you worth more of it than a physically challenged people? why do you think there is injustice? you know why? because you WILL be ressurected back and be accountable for whatever blessings you had. Don't go around hunting for trivial matters where you have no understanding about that particular topic, im refffering to the nipple thing you brought up. you don't posses, neither do we, all the wisdom in the world. Allah knows the best.

[HeiGou]

Just like any other orientalist approach.

I love how many Muslims have taken the traditional "All Jews, Christians and pagans are liars so we don't need to listen to them" approach and modified it to an "All Orientalists are liars so we don't need to listen to them" approach.

Why do you think this attempt at name-calling is going to get you anywhere?

Why do you care so much about the nipples of men when you don't understand the wisdom and purpose of your own creation. Have you ever appriciated the gifts of your intellect, health, eyesight, hands, tongue, your wealth, family and so on?

Because I have no special insight into the Wisdom and Purpose of God, but Science provides a powerful tool for understanding the Universe, which in so far as it reflects God's mind and intentions, is useful for understanding Bigger Questions.

I do appreciate all those gifts from time to time. Why do you think that they are the gift of God, or especially your God?

why do you think you are prevelaged to hava all these blessings(assumingly) while certain people are not? are you worth more of it than a physically challenged people?

I do not know. It is hard for me to accept that unjust outcomes prove God so much as suggest otherwise. Why do you think it does?

why do you think there is injustice? you know why? because you WILL be ressurected back and be accountable for whatever blessings you had.

Surely that is not why there is injustice. Surely God did not create injustice just so that He could fix it later - why not fix it now? Rather it is obvious that this must be the case if God is (a) responsible for the world as it is and yet still (b) Merciful and Just?

Don't go around hunting for trivial matters where you have no understanding about that particular topic, im refffering to the nipple thing you brought up. you don't posses, neither do we, all the wisdom in the world. Allah knows the best.

And yet my approach leads to people flying around the world and doctors curing cancer and abolishing smallpox. What does your approach lead to?

[cool_jannah]

Yes. This does seem an odd perspective. So if my Grandmother does what she grew up doing and what all the women in her family have done since as long as records have existed, even if she does it in ignorance of Islamic law, she will burn in Hell. But someone who murders millions will be forgiven. It complicates issues because whenever we talk about actions forbidden in Islam we have to remember that whatever we are talking about it is not such a great sin as burning incense!

Excellent point. People who are in ignorance and die in ignorance, is because this is what they have chosen for themselves. Your grandmother had all her life to struggle and think about here existence. She was not here to live forever, and im sure she knew that. You will leave too one day. This is what your beautiful mind is for. Not to create rockets and send them into sapce.
something very trivial if you really think about it.
We were all the inhabitants of Jannah before we were brought to life in this world. People have chosen to obey Shaitaan and make him as their friend. Allah has warned us throught the history of human existence, through His books, His Noble Messengers, His signs about the people who chose the path of Shaitaan...anybody that follows shaitan will be put in the Hell fire along with Shaitan himself.

And exactly this is the Mercy of Allah, Subhanahu wa Ta'laa that He will forgive no matter if you killed a million people or a billion people. One sincere repentance is enough to attain salvation. SubhanAllah this is called true Mercy. Not fables of son's of God being sacrificed for the sake of the sins of entire humanity. No one needs to sacrifice for others. Every soul carries it's own burden. Only if you understood.

[HeiGou]

People who are in ignorance and die in ignorance, is because this is what they have chosen for themselves. Your grandmother had all her life to struggle and think about here existence. She was not here to live forever, and im sure she knew that. You will leave too one day. This is what your beautiful mind is for. Not to create rockets and send them into sapce.

And yet if she was ignorant she would not know what questions to ask. I can honestly say I choose my fate knowing what Islam says and teaches, but she, of course, cannot. What my beautiful mind is for is another question. More interesting to me is how I use it. Simply saying that I must not think about male nipples (not that, I hasten to assure people, I spend a lot of time thinking about male nipples) is the sort of answer that leads to a country like Pakistan and not a country like, say, Japan. Because of people like me 1.6 billion Muslims exist in the world today. If not for people like me it might be 16 million. Does that count for nothing?

And exactly this is the Mercy of Allah, Subhanahu wa Ta'laa that He will forgive no matter if you killed a million people or a billion people. One sincere repentance is enough to attain salvation. SubhanAllah this is called true Mercy. Not fables of son's of God being sacrificed for the sake of the sins of entire humanity. No one needs to sacrifice for others. Every soul carries it's own burden. Only if you understood.

This is an odd concept of mercy though. You murder millions, even billions, and as long as you think you are trying to be a good Muslim you will be forgiven. I see why Osama Bin Laden might think that whatever he did was a good thing - after all if he is right he will be rewarded, if he is wrong God will know what he intended and forgive him.

But if you dare to tie a prayer cloth, that won't be forgiven. It still seems odd to me in the same way that Islamic law treats some consentual sex between adults as a worse crime than murder.

[Hussein radi]

Root???!?!?! have u not seen the Video? It was my proof. Here is the video
http://www.harunyahya.com/download/d...d.php?id=18917

I have brought my proof Root. Please bring yours.

[Hussein radi]

Root, i have a question for you. It has been proven that the universe expands and it was created out of nothingness with a single point, as the video explains. Tell me doesnt the expansion of the universe convince you that god created the universe. If god didnt creat it, did nothingness created it? did nothingness created life, did it created me? did it created billions of stars? did it created the seven layers of earth that made life possible, I dont think so.

[HeiGou]

Root, i have a question for you. It has been proven that the universe expands and it was created out of nothingness with a single point, as the video explains. Tell me doesnt the expansion of the universe convince you that god created the universe. If god didnt creat it, did nothingness created it? did nothingness created life, did it created me? did it created billions of stars? did it created the seven layers of earth that made life possible, I dont think so.

Well I am not Root, but I can play him on TV! It has been proven by Western scientists that the Universe began with a singularity - an infinitely small point which contained all the mass and all the time in existence at that point. Yes. And no, the expansion of the Universe in the Big Bang does not prove the existence of God to me. Why should it to you? If God did create it, who created God? Nothingness? If nothing created God, why do you need some one to create the Universe? Which is easier - creating the Universe or creating God? Life arose through a physical process which has no evidence for divine intervention. And evolution created you. And that same Big Bang created the stars we see and those that we do not. Why do you not think so?

[cool_jannah]

If God did create it, who created God? Nothingness? If nothing created God, why do you need some one to create the Universe? Which is easier - creating the Universe or creating God? Life arose through a physical process which has no evidence for divine intervention. And evolution created you. And that same Big Bang created the stars we see and those that we do not. Why do you not think so?

Hilarious.
These questions bothered me when I was 11 years old. I took me approximately 3 years to understand all this. You are so immature Heigou. Honestly, these are straight forward concepts you are confusing with.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Hilarious.
These questions bothered me when I was 11 years old. I took me approximately 3 years to understand all this. You are so immature Heigou. Honestly, these are straight forward concepts you are confusing with.

ye same here, it all started making sence when i was old enuff to think :)

[HeiGou]

These questions bothered me when I was 11 years old. I took me approximately 3 years to understand all this. You are so immature Heigou. Honestly, these are straight forward concepts you are confusing with.

Explain it to me then.

[Muslim Soldier]

Why should it to you? If God did create it, who created God? Nothingness? If nothing created God, why do you need some one to create the Universe? Which is easier - creating the Universe or creating God? Life arose through a physical process which has no evidence for divine intervention. And evolution created you. And that same Big Bang created the stars we see and those that we do not. Why do you not think so?

God was not created!

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Explain it to me then.

allow me!

God was not created. He has no beginning and no end

:thumbs_up

[HeiGou]

God was not created!

Which I am happy to accept as a theological claim, but as a logical claim that is odd. Why do you think He was not created? Moreover if the Universe is too complex and ordered to have been uncreated, how can God, a more complex Being, be uncreated? Surely if something as mysterious as God can be uncreated, so too can the Universe?

[HeiGou]

allow me!

God was not created. He has no beginning and no end

Fine. But why then can't the Universe be uncreated?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Fine. But why then can't the Universe be uncreated?

becoz God decreed it 2 b and he is the all mighty, all wise :)

[HeiGou]

becoz God decreed it 2 b and he is the all mighty, all wise :)

So you can claim it was created. I am more interested in the usual claim that it is so complex it had to be created. Do you believe that and if so how do you reconcile that claim with your belief that God was not created?

[Hussein radi]

The Earth consists of inner core, mantle, and crust. the inner core is used to make the ozon layers, which are essential for life. With out ozon layers the air will escape and the sun wil burn all life. You already said it to me before not true, can you please tell me why its not true and give me proof?

i find it funny that almost everyone believe in god and only few don't.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

So you can claim it was created. I am more interested in the usual claim that it is so complex it had to be created. Do you believe that and if so how do you reconcile that claim with your belief that God was not created?

ye of course. The universe was created by God, and god was not created. We hav no knowledge to understand how he came about. The fact that he is here is enuff :)

[HeiGou]

The Earth consists of inner core, mantle, and crust. the inner core is used to make the ozon layers, which are essential for life. With out ozon layers the air will escape and the sun wil burn all life. You already said it to me before not true, can you please tell me why its not true and give me proof?

Actually the Ozone layer is the work of UV light hitting the oxygen molecules in the upper atmosphere. Air will escape if it can regardless of the ozone layer which only blocks UV light, not air. It is air after all. Gravity holds most of the Earth's air in place, not the ozone layer. Lighter elements do, however, escape all the time.

But you are missing the larger theological issue: self-evidently we are not dead and our ancestors all lived long enough to have at least one child. Therefore something must have protected them. Therefore something does protect the Earth. This is not a miracle. If it didn't exist I would not be here typing.

i find it funny that almost everyone believe in god and only few don't.

Everyone used to think the Earth was flat. Truth is not determined by a majority vote.

Only a minority of the human race has ever believed in your religion. As only a minority does now. I don't find that funny. Do you?

[Hussein radi]

HeiHou, you believe the Universe created it self and it perfectly created the earth, sun, and moon. God is beyound our understanding, we can only understand what he created on this universe. you are making a big mistake denying his existnse. You compare him with the universe perfection.

[HeiGou]

you believe the Universe created it self

I believe there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. Which is not quite the same thing

and it perfectly created the earth, sun, and moon.

I don't think they are perfect.

God is beyound our understanding, we can only understand what he created on this universe. you are making a big mistake denying his existnse. You compare him with the universe perfection.

If God is beyond our understanding then clearly something as complex as the Universe can exist without a Creator. I am not comparing Him to the Universe nor do I deny His existence.

[Hussein radi]

??????????????????????????????????

[HeiGou]

Hi Heigou. I notice that you have not chosen to disclose your way of life, I actually assumed you to be an athiest, but the above statement proves otherwise. Can I ask you what you do believe in? .. <please> :happy:

Well you can ask but I would prefer not to discuss my beliefs in any detail. Or at all if I thought about it. This is a site for Muslims and discussing Islam. I am happy to discuss Islam (as long as I am allowed to which will not be much longer I guess). But discussing anything else would be foolish.

[------]

Only a minority of the human race has ever believed in your religion. As only a minority does now. I don't find that funny. Do you?

Erm so 1.2 billion odd is a minority? Don't make me laugh!

[HeiGou]

Erm so 1.2 billion odd is a minority? Don't make me laugh!

Well the population of the planet is about 6 billion. I make that about a fifth. Which is, surely, a minority.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Well the population of the planet is about 6 billion. I make that about a fifth. Which is, surely, a minority.

nope a fifth is actually quite a lot :)

[HeiGou]

nope a fifth is actually quite a lot :)

I did not say it was not a lot, I said it was a minority.

Main Entry: mi·nor·i·ty
Pronunciation: m&-'nor-&-tE, mI-, -'när-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
Usage: often attributive
1 a : the period before attainment of majority b : the state of being a legal minor
2 : the smaller in number of two groups constituting a whole; specifically : a group having less than the number of votes necessary for control
3 a : a part of a population differing from others in some characteristics and often subjected to differential treatment b : a member of a minority group <an effort to hire more minorities>

Which it is. Muslims are out numbered by Catholics alone. They do not constitute a plurality of the world's population.

[root]

Quote:
Originally Posted by root [Link only for registered members]

Why do you need a creator

what a question. excellent thinking root.
yeeeeaaaa...why do you need a creator?

If I throw cold water outside my house on a freezing night, a chemical reaction will occur to create a complex structure. Am I the creator of the ice particle in all it's complexity or is it a chemical reaction that has taken place, what do u think? I sure hope you agree with me that it is the latter.

somebody has to create things for them to exist.

Nonsense. The Earth itself exists and was not created, unless your a 6/8 day creationist. Are U?

that was really dumb root. what part of your body do you think from root?

My brain of course

[------]

Well the population of the planet is about 6 billion. I make that about a fifth. Which is, surely, a minority.

WHy do u always think from a narrow perspective?!

[cool_jannah]

heigoo

You never answered my questions. I asked you about the people who leave this world guilty of being responsible for the lives of millions of people. you said you had no answer for that. And also about people who are born handicaped or blind or dumb or deaf. what kind of justice do you believe in? don't you think justice should be done to these people.
I already gave you Islamic view point of this....something called as RESSURECTION or coming back to life and being accountable for their deeds accordingly.
talk to me?

[HeiGou]

WHy do u always think from a narrow perspective?!

If by "narrow" you mean "accurate", well, umm.....

If you don't what do you mean?

[mirage41]

WHy do u always think from a narrow perspective?!

So usage of fractions is considered "narrow minded" by you? No wonder --no attacks on Islam and Muslims will be tolerated on this forum---

And its actually less than 1.4 billion Majority Muslim countries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1.4 / 6.5 = 21.5 / 100

Which means that if the world had a 100 people 21 would be Muslim. 60% of whom really don't care for Islam - so in essence only 8.4 % of the world is actually Muslim.

[HeiGou]

You never answered my questions. I asked you about the people who leave this world guilty of being responsible for the lives of millions of people. you said you had no answer for that. And also about people who are born handicaped or blind or dumb or deaf. what kind of justice do you believe in? don't you think justice should be done to these people.
I already gave you Islamic view point of this....something called as RESSURECTION or coming back to life and being accountable for their deeds accordingly.

I think I did answer those questions actually. What about the people who leave this world guilty of being responsible for the deaths of millions? In an ideal world they would be punished appropriately, which would call for more punishment than can be handed out in this world. But is there any reason to think they will be punished in the next world? I know of none. I would like it if justice was done for those born handicapped, but, again, what is the evidence that there is any? None that I know of. It is odd that you cling to a God that allows mass murder and children to be born handicapped and use this, which most people use as a reason not to believe in God, as a reason to believe in God.

Just because I would like to believe that people are held accountable, it does not mean that I think they will be, much less that they will be.

[cool_jannah]

If I throw cold water outside my house on a freezing night, a chemical reaction will occur to create a complex structure. Am I the creator of the ice particle in all it's complexity or is it a chemical reaction that has taken place, what do u think? I sure hope you agree with me that it is the latter.

joke of the day!

who said you created the ice particle? humans can't even create a single hair in its true nature. Obviously, God created the water that beahves in that certain way.
I disagree with you.

I have a class now...gotta run. :okay:

[mirage41]

Even if God did exist don't you all think it was a bit sadistic and evil how good ol Allah slaughtered 283,000 coastal villagers in 2004 and about 87,000 mountain villages in 2005. I mean he must really hate villagers. Why would you even consider worshipping such a dude?

If you wanna worship something here's an idea* : THE SUN! Yeah, worship the sun. The Sun can get a little hot at times and yeah theres the occasional skin cancer - but its the source for all life. I think that Sun fellow is worth worshipping. At the least the Sun doesn't hate on coastal or mountain villagers.


( *originally by George Carlin )

[------]

No wonder ---

Excuse me? Well you can see the Day of Judgement is near now, so many rude people about Islam!

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Excuse me? Well you can see the Day of Judgement is near now, so many ruse people about Islam!

I don't mean to be harsh, but calling someone narrow-minded simply because they pointed out an inaccuracy in your post is, in itself, rather rude.

And you're not normally rude, IK. :)

Peace

[mirage41]

Gee Wilikers! Are Muslims going to start rioting against those kufr fractions because they didn't return are proper >50% value? Takbir!

[------]

Takbir!

Don't use words if you don't know what they mean or u are using them in a wrong context.

[mirage41]

Don't use words if you don't know what they mean or u are using them in a wrong context.

No no, you're supposed to shout "ALLAHU AKBAR!" when i say that.

[------]

No, you're supposed to shout "ALLAHU AKBAR!"

Don't teach me my religion.

[Hussein radi]

Mirage i would greatly appreciate it if you stop insulting us muslims and our religion. You are far to arrogant and immature. i cant believe you tell us to worship the sun instead of the all might god, if you wanna worship the sun go ahead and look like a fool infront of everyone.

[------]

Mirage i would greatly appreciate it if you stop insulting us muslims and our religion. You are far to arrogant and immature. i cant believe you tell us to worship the sun instead of the all might god, if you wanna worship the sun go ahead and look like a fool infront of everyone.

That deffo deserves reps! :D

[moujahid]

Gee Wilikers! Are Muslims going to start rioting against those kufr fractions because they didn't return are proper >50% value?

No*