Baha'i Apologetics

[RonPrice]

Apologetics is a branch of systematic theology, although some experience it’s thrust in religious studies or philosophy of religion courses. Some encounter it on the internet for the first time in a more populist and usually much less academic form. As I see it, apologetics is primarily concerned with the protection of a religious position, the refutation of that position's assailants and, in the larger sense, the exploration of that position in the context of prevailing philosophies and standards in a secular society. Apologetics, to put it slightly differently, is concerned with answering critical inquiries, criticism of a position, in a rational manner. Apologetics is not possible, it seems to me anyway, without a commitment to and a desire to defend a position. For me, the core of my position I could express in one phrase: the Baha'i Revelation. With that said, though, the activity I engage in, namely, apologetics, is a never ending exercise.

The apologetics that concerns me is not so much Christian or Islamic apologetics but Baha'i apologetics. There are many points of comparison and contrast, though, which I won't go into here. Muslims or, indeed, other religions at this site will have the opportunity to defend their beliefs by the use of their particular approach to apologetics. And I will in turn defend the Baha'i Faith by the use of apologetics. In the process we will both, hopefully, learn something about our respective Faiths, our religions, which we hold to our hearts dearly.

At the outset, then, in this my first posting, my intention is simply to make this start, to state what you might call "my apologetics position." This brief statement indicates, in broad outline, where I am coming from in the weeks and months ahead. -Ron Price with thanks to Udo Schaefer, "Baha'i Apologetics?" Baha'i Studies Review, Vol. 10, 2001/2002.
_______________________________
I want in this second half of my first posting here to finish, as best I can, outlining a basic orientation to Baha’i apologetics. Critical scholarly contributions or criticism raised in public or private discussions, an obvious part of apologetics, should not necessarily be equated with hostility. Often questions are perfectly legitimate aspects of a person's search for an answer to an intellectual conundrum. Paul Tillich once expressed the view that apologetics was an "answering theology."(Systematic Theology, U. of Chicago, 1967, Vol.1, p6.)

I have always been attracted to the founder of the Baha'i Faith's exhortations in discussion to "speak with words as mild as milk," with "the utmost lenience and forebearance." I am also aware that, in cases of rude or hostile attack, rebuttal with a harsher tone may well be justified. It does not help an apologist to belong to those "watchmen" the prophet Isaiah calls "dumb dogs that cannot bark."(Isaiah, 56:10) For myself, though, I avoid harsh tones and prefer irony, humour, gentle sarcasm and critique.

In its essence apologetics is a kind of confrontation, an act of revealing one's true colours, of hoisting the flag, of demonstrating essential characteristics of faith. Dialogue, as Hans Kung puts it, "does not mean self-denial."(quoted by Udo Schaefer, "Baha'i Apologetics," Baha'i Studies Review, Vol.10, 2001/2) Schaefer goes on: "A faith that is opportunistically streamlined, adapting to current trends, thus concealing its real features, features that could provoke rejection in order to be acceptable for dialogue is in danger of losing its identity."

It is almost impossible to carry the torch of truth through a crowd without getting someone's beard singed. In the weeks that follow, my postings will probably wind up singing the beards of some readers and, perhaps, my own in the process. Such are the perils of dialogue, of apologetics. Much of Baha'i apologetics derives from the experience Baha'is have of a fundamental discrepancy between secular thought and the Baha'i revelation on the other. In some ways, the gulf is unbridegeable but, so too, is this the case between the secular and much thought in the Islamic and Christian revelations. That is why, or at least one of the reasons, I have chosen to make postings at this site.

Anyway, that's all for now. It's back to the autumn winds of Tasmania, about 3 kms from the Bass Straight on the Tamar River. The geography of place is so much simpler than that of the spiritual geography readers at this site are concerned with, although I am aware that whom the gods would destroy they first make simple and simpler and simpler. I look forward to a dialogue with someone. Here in far-off Tasmania--the last stop before Antarctica, if one wants to get there through some other route than off the end of South America--your email will be gratefully received. -Ron Price, Tasmania.
____________________________________

[Trumble]

It's great to see a Baha'i here. It gets commented on from time to time but its not a faith anyone here, muslim or non-muslim knows much about (correct me if I'm wrong, folks) .

I look forward to the Baha'i apologetics!

[mirage41]

Bahais are the Mormons of Islam.... thought I'd just share that with you.

[RonPrice]

Thank you for the welcoming note. I was removed from two Christian fundamentalist sites. All religions and philosophies seem to have liberal and conservative wings, so to speak. So far, in my 47 years as a Baha'i in the West, I have met only liberal Muslims and many Christian fundamentalists. I am aware of the other types; arn't we all?

The comparison of Mormons and Baha'is has some relevance, although like most comparisons it is only a partial truth. A more apt comarison in my experience is as follows:

Jews((most) never acccepted Christ
Christians(most) never accepted Muhammed
Muslims(most) never accepted Baha'u''llah.

Each, of course, has reams of reasons for their position.

That's all for now, folks!

Ron

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[mirage41]

I got no beef with the Bahais, they don't kill no one and are generally polite and tolerant. Perfectly adaptable to modern secular society.

[RonPrice]

In the roughly 6 million global Baha'i population there are inevitably some Baha'is whose behaviour you would not like--nor would I. One of the problems believers in all religions have is that the behaviour of the followers are not always up to scratch, to put it colloquially. If one judged/assessed a religion by the people who followed it, one would not join any of them and one would find them all wanting.

And, of course, one would not adopt any philosophy either--including atheism and agnosticism, skepticism and cynicism. Because, of course, people in all philosophies never live up to some mark that we set for them in our mind's eye or our society's eye/culture. So...we must use some other criteria for assessing a religion, or so it seems to me anyway.-Ron

[north_malaysian]

:welcome:

AM I the first Muslim welcoming you?:rollseyes

[north_malaysian]

Muslims(most) never accepted Baha'u''llah.

Why Muslim(most)? I thought all Muslims never accepted Bahaullah?

At least some Muslims accept Ahmad Qadiani as Mujaddid.

[RonPrice]

In the 162 years of Baha'i history tens of 1000s of Muslims have become Baha'is: mullas, mujtahids and ordinary believers. Generally, I have found Muslims at internet sites very friendly even though we have serious theological differences.-Ron Price, Tasmania:statisfie

[Malaikah]

what is Baha'i apologetics though? and who is Baha'u''llah?

[RonPrice]

For now I have said enough about apologetics, but I will say that: one way of answering your question about Baha'u'llah is as follows:
________________
The word "Seal" (kha'tam in Arabic), in the verse above, has been interpreted to mean the: "Last", "Final", "Ornament" (something to adorn with), "Ring", "Seal" (as in a stamp sealing closed a document), "Seal" (as in seal of authority, officiating a document), and other meanings along similar lines of interpretation. Baha'is believe that all such meanings are valid and true.

Followers of all past religions have believed, based on certain verses in their holy books, that their religion would not be followed by any other. Verses such as this have prevented the Jews from accepting newer revelations: "Go thy way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end."- Daniel 12:9

Another verse in the Old Testament says that the law of the Sabbath shall not be broken. For our Christian brothers and sisters, it was verses such as these below, which lead them to believe that there would not be any revelation after that of Christ:

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."- John 14:6 "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away."- Luke 21:33

"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. "- Hebrews 1:1

These and many other verses that talk about, how only through Jesus (PBUH) we can know the Father, and how His words will never be replaced, were the reason that Christians would not accept any Messenger after Christ.

Going back to the meaning of the "Seal of the Prophets", this verse, and other verses about the completion of religion in Islam, have been interpreted by the majority of Muslims as indication of the finality, not only of Prophethood, but of all revelation. Other opinions and interpretations, including some by Muslim scholars, have argued that since there are many other verses in the Qur'an which explain the endless nature of the Words of God, in addition to other verses and Hadiths (traditions and sayings of the Prophet), which talk about the return of Jesus and the coming of the Mahdi, these opinions, have argued that there may be other interpretations for these verses. Some of these interpretations are mentioned here:
___________________________
Oneness of the Prophets
Many passages in religious scripture and other studies of theology hint at the idea that the Reality of the Messengers of God is the same reality, in as much as, They all came from the same Source, bringing us God's Teachings, and mirroring forth His attributes. In this light, it can be understood for example, how Jesus (PBUH) could also claim that He was the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. Here are some Muslim sources which contribute to such theme :


The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein ...- Qur'an 42:13

Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we submit to Allah (in Islam)." - Qur'an 2:136

[NahidSarvy]

Bahais are the Mormons of Islam.... thought I'd just share that with you.

Yeek, who are you? A fan of Waiting for Dorothy, apaprently. (Warning, graphic language on that page.)

[syilla]

i wish there are some scholars... can discuss with you...

my intellectual maybe not at your level

*i'm just a simple muslim lady... trying to be a better muslim

[RonPrice]

I am simply trying to answer questions raised about the Baha'i Faith at this site. Just go on being a 'simple Muslim lady.' I will be a simple Baha'i man in his old age. I've been a teacher all my life in western countries. Now I am retired. I like to read.-Ron Price, Tasmania.

[north_malaysian]

1) How is Muhammad's status in Baha'i?
2) The sacredness of Mecca in Baha'i?
3) Why Baha'is celebrated Novruz?

[RonPrice]

How Baha'is View Islam
"Blessing and peace be upon Him [Muhammad] through Whose advent Bathá [Mecca] is wreathed in smiles, and the sweet savours of Whose raiment have shed fragrance upon all mankind-- He Who came to protect men from that which would harm them in the world below. Exalted, immensely exalted is His station above the glorification of all beings and sanctified from the praise of the entire creation. Through His advent the tabernacle of stability and order was raised throughout the world and the ensign of knowledge hoisted among the nations. May blessings rest also upon His kindred and His companions through whom the standard of the unity of God and of His singleness was uplifted and the banners of celestial triumph were unfurled. Through them the religion of God was firmly established among His creatures and His Name magnified amidst His servants."
- Tablets of Baha'u'llah revealed after the Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 162

Even though the Baha'i Faith is an independent religion and is not a sect of Islam, we find in the writings of Shoghi Effendi (the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith 1921-1957), much emphasis on the need for Baha'is to help correct the many mistaken views about Islam, held by the majority of people in the West:

'There is so [much] misunderstanding about Islam in the West in general that you have to dispel. Your task is rather difficult and requires a good deal of erudition. Your chief task is to acquaint the friends with the pure teaching of the Prophet [Muhammad] as recorded in the Qur'án, and then to point out how these teachings have, throughout succeeding ages, influenced[,] nay[,] guided the course of human development. In other words you have to show the position and significance of Islam in the history of civilization.'

- Shoghi Effendi, (the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith). Lights of Guidance, New Delhi: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 2nd rev. and enlarged edition, 1988, #1664.

'The mission of the American Bahá'ís is, no doubt to eventually establish the truth of Islam in the West.' - Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, #1665.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
On the importance of the study of Islam to Bahá'ís, the Guardian, Shoghi Effendi, said that for 'a proper and sound understanding of the Cause' its study was 'absolutely indispensable.'- Lights of Guidance, #1903.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Faith standing identified with the name of Bahá'u'lláh disclaims any intention to belittle any of the Prophets gone before Him, to whittle down any of their teachings, to obscure, however slightly, the radiance of their Revelations, to oust them from the hearts of their followers, to abrogate the fundamentals of their doctrines, to discard any of their revealed Books, or to suppress the legitimate aspirations of their adherents. Repudiating the claim of any religion to be the final revelation of God to man, disclaiming finality for His own Revelation, Bahá'u'lláh inculcates the basic principle of the relativity of religious truth, the continuity of Divine Revelation, the progressiveness of religious experience. His aim is to widen the basis of all revealed religions and to unravel the mysteries of their scriptures. He insists on the unqualified recognition of the unity of their purpose, restates the eternal verities they enshrine, coordinates their functions, distinguishes the essential and the authentic from the nonessential and spurious in their teachings, separates the God-given truths from the priest-prompted superstitions, and on this as a basis proclaims the possibility, and even prophecies the inevitability, of their unification, and the consummation of their highest hopes.

As to Muhammad, the Apostle of God, let none among His followers who read these pages, think for a moment that either Islám, or its Prophet, or His Book, or His appointed Successors, or any of His authentic teachings, have been, or are to be in any way, or to however slight a degree, disparaged. The lineage of the Báb, the descendant of the Imám Husayn; the divers and striking evidences, in Nabíl's Narrative, of the attitude of the Herald of our Faith towards the Founder, the Imáms, and the Book of Islám; the glowing tributes paid by Bahá'u'lláh in the Kitáb-i-Íqán to Muhammad and His lawful Successors, and particularly to the "peerless and incomparable" Imám Husayn; the arguments adduced, forcibly, fearlessly, and publicly by `Abdu'l-Bahá, in churches and synagogues, to demonstrate the validity of the Message of the Arabian Prophet; and last but not least the written testimonial of the Queen of Rumania, who, born in the Anglican faith and notwithstanding the close alliance of her government with the Greek Orthodox Church, the state religion of her adopted country, has, largely as a result of the perusal of these public discourses of `Abdu'l-Bahá, been prompted to proclaim her recognition of the prophetic function of Muhammad-- all proclaim, in no uncertain terms, the true attitude of the Bahá'í Faith towards its parent religion.
____________________________
Write again: this is just a startt to answering your questions.-Ron Price, Tasmania:statisfie

[north_malaysian]

How Baha'is View Islam
"Blessing and peace be upon Him [Muhammad] through Whose advent Bathá [Mecca] is wreathed in smiles, and the sweet savours of Whose raiment have shed fragrance upon all mankind-- He Who came to protect men from that which would harm them in the world below. Exalted, immensely exalted is His station above the glorification of all beings and sanctified from the praise of the entire creation. Through His advent the tabernacle of stability and order was raised throughout the world and the ensign of knowledge hoisted among the nations. May blessings rest also upon His kindred and His companions through whom the standard of the unity of God and of His singleness was uplifted and the banners of celestial triumph were unfurled. Through them the religion of God was firmly established among His creatures and His Name magnified amidst His servants."
- Tablets of Baha'u'llah revealed after the Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 162

Even though the Baha'i Faith is an independent religion and is not a sect of Islam, we find in the writings of Shoghi Effendi (the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith 1921-1957), much emphasis on the need for Baha'is to help correct the many mistaken views about Islam, held by the majority of people in the West:

'There is so [much] misunderstanding about Islam in the West in general that you have to dispel. Your task is rather difficult and requires a good deal of erudition. Your chief task is to acquaint the friends with the pure teaching of the Prophet [Muhammad] as recorded in the Qur'án, and then to point out how these teachings have, throughout succeeding ages, influenced[,] nay[,] guided the course of human development. In other words you have to show the position and significance of Islam in the history of civilization.'

- Shoghi Effendi, (the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith). Lights of Guidance, New Delhi: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 2nd rev. and enlarged edition, 1988, #1664.

'The mission of the American Bahá'ís is, no doubt to eventually establish the truth of Islam in the West.' - Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, #1665.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
On the importance of the study of Islam to Bahá'ís, the Guardian, Shoghi Effendi, said that for 'a proper and sound understanding of the Cause' its study was 'absolutely indispensable.'- Lights of Guidance, #1903.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Faith standing identified with the name of Bahá'u'lláh disclaims any intention to belittle any of the Prophets gone before Him, to whittle down any of their teachings, to obscure, however slightly, the radiance of their Revelations, to oust them from the hearts of their followers, to abrogate the fundamentals of their doctrines, to discard any of their revealed Books, or to suppress the legitimate aspirations of their adherents. Repudiating the claim of any religion to be the final revelation of God to man, disclaiming finality for His own Revelation, Bahá'u'lláh inculcates the basic principle of the relativity of religious truth, the continuity of Divine Revelation, the progressiveness of religious experience. His aim is to widen the basis of all revealed religions and to unravel the mysteries of their scriptures. He insists on the unqualified recognition of the unity of their purpose, restates the eternal verities they enshrine, coordinates their functions, distinguishes the essential and the authentic from the nonessential and spurious in their teachings, separates the God-given truths from the priest-prompted superstitions, and on this as a basis proclaims the possibility, and even prophecies the inevitability, of their unification, and the consummation of their highest hopes.

As to Muhammad, the Apostle of God, let none among His followers who read these pages, think for a moment that either Islám, or its Prophet, or His Book, or His appointed Successors, or any of His authentic teachings, have been, or are to be in any way, or to however slight a degree, disparaged. The lineage of the Báb, the descendant of the Imám Husayn; the divers and striking evidences, in Nabíl's Narrative, of the attitude of the Herald of our Faith towards the Founder, the Imáms, and the Book of Islám; the glowing tributes paid by Bahá'u'lláh in the Kitáb-i-Íqán to Muhammad and His lawful Successors, and particularly to the "peerless and incomparable" Imám Husayn; the arguments adduced, forcibly, fearlessly, and publicly by `Abdu'l-Bahá, in churches and synagogues, to demonstrate the validity of the Message of the Arabian Prophet; and last but not least the written testimonial of the Queen of Rumania, who, born in the Anglican faith and notwithstanding the close alliance of her government with the Greek Orthodox Church, the state religion of her adopted country, has, largely as a result of the perusal of these public discourses of `Abdu'l-Bahá, been prompted to proclaim her recognition of the prophetic function of Muhammad-- all proclaim, in no uncertain terms, the true attitude of the Bahá'í Faith towards its parent religion.
____________________________
Write again: this is just a startt to answering your questions.-Ron Price, Tasmania:statisfie

wow, never heard a religion praising Muhammad as the Baha'i Faith. Even have duty to correct misconception about Islam.

Would Muslims go to heaven, if they refuse the prophethood of Bahaullah?:?

[syilla]

yeah... it makes me wonder...

i was thinkin can a non-muslims believes in more than one religion...

i know that as a muslim...we believes only in one religion...coz we believe there is only one god.

[Link]

Salam

I read almost all their books, and this the flaws I saw:

1) The day of judgement is interpeted as being Bahallah's appearance (or any Major Messenger's appearance) (they believe Quran to be 100% authentic and not corrupted), anyone who reads the Quran will realize this flaw, if they can interpet some verses that way, there other verses showing how flawed their interpetation is

2) The 19 months calander contradicts the 12 months calander in the Quran which the Quran says has been from day 1 of creation and is the number of months with God

3) Bahallah in one of his revelation books quoutes Du'a nudba, and uses it as a basis of revealing knowledge, however in du'a Nudba, Imam Mahdi (as) is explicitly said to be alive, and also the phrase to Ali (as) (Which is mutuwatar in both sunni and shia sources) "You are to me as HArun was to Musa, except there is no Prophet after me" is found

4) Bahallah contradicted the Prophecy of the Bab, a new 'Prophet' has done the same with the Bahallah Prophecy , here is the site to that new religion Mission Of Maitreya, "Eternal DIvine Path"

5) They didn't perform any miracles

6) The interpetation of Bahallah of "khatamal nabiyeen" is that it all Prophets (as) were one entity, thus all were first and last, this interpetation alone seems like a desperate way to get out of the meaning of the verse, however Bahais all give their own different interptation of it now, which shows they don't have much confidence in their Prophet's interpetation

7) Their two Prophets quoted alot of hadiths that don't exist, they qouted books that don't exist, etc, they could only trick people who don't have acadamic knowledge about hadith books and people who don't bother to check the references

8) They focussed alot of irfan, but their irfan knowledge is nothing compared to Khomeini (ra), Tabatabei (ra), Abdul Qadir Al-Jilani (ra), Ibn Arabi (ra), they took some irfan teachings and made it as if they were revealing things never revealed before

9) Quran has much more knowledge than all their books combined

10) The gospel was accepted to be 'authentic', Isa (as) was believed to be dead by them, all this can be refuted by Quran

11) The name "Baha" "Baha of Allah" is not a new concept, it is found in a book written before Bahallah was alive, mefatihal jinan, from a du'a attributed to Imam Baqir (as) the Phrase found in the du'a is the following "O God I ask you by your baha and every baha that is bahee, o God I ask you for all you baha",and "and (you (plural) [ie. Ahlulbayt] are) His baha" is found in ziyaratal jamia al-kabeer, which was reported from Imam Ali Naqi (as) (the 10th successor (as) of the Prophet (as) according to shias (and bahais)) , while they made this as if it was their unique concepted revealed to them

I found some other flaws, but you can read their books to see those

Jews((most) never acccepted Christ
Christians(most) never accepted Muhammed
Muslims(most) never accepted Baha'u''llah.

and you don't accept Maitreya, Maitreya says the no new manifestation will come for 1000 years was refering to after him, what do you make of that?

[north_malaysian]

who is matireya?

[NahidSarvy]

who is matireya?

Maitreya "Who Has Loving-Kindness" - the Buddha of the Future, like the Soshiyan of the Zoroastrians or the second coming of Christ for Christians or Elijah of the Jews.

[north_malaysian]

Maitreya "Who Has Loving-Kindness" - the Buddha of the Future, like the Soshiyan of the Zoroastrians or the second coming of Christ for Christians or Elijah of the Jews.

Or Kalki for Hindus?

[NahidSarvy]

Or Kalki for Hindus?

Erm... maybe? I dunno from the Hinduisms.

[north_malaysian]

I remembered long ago a Hindu told me that in Hinduism there is a 'Jesus' like figure named Kalki. The different is that when Kalki defeated the ..... (I've forgotten the name - but sort of antichrist like), te world will be paceful, then the qiyamat comes and destroyed everything. Then new earth created (Hindus dont believe in Hell/Heaven) everybody will be reborn.

[Link]

Salam

RonPrice, here's my questions I hope you don't mind answering, have you read the bab's tafseer of suratal kawthar before he claimed to be the bab or a Prophet? If you have, what do you say about it? and have many Bahais or babis read it according to your experience?

wasalam

[RonPrice]

To answer your three questions in turn:

) How is Muhammad's status in Baha'i?

How Baha'is View Islam and Muhammad:

"Blessing and peace be upon Him [Muhammad] through Whose advent Bathá [Mecca] is wreathed in smiles, and the sweet savours of Whose raiment have shed fragrance upon all mankind-- He Who came to protect men from that which would harm them in the world below. Exalted, immensely exalted is His station above the glorification of all beings and sanctified from the praise of the entire creation. Through His advent the tabernacle of stability and order was raised throughout the world and the ensign of knowledge hoisted among the nations. May blessings rest also upon His kindred and His companions through whom the standard of the unity of God and of His singleness was uplifted and the banners of celestial triumph were unfurled. Through them the religion of God was firmly established among His creatures and His Name magnified amidst His servants." - Tablets of Baha'u'llah revealed after the Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 162
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even though the Baha'i Faith is an independent religion and is not a sect of Islam, we find in the writings of Shoghi Effendi (the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith 1921-1957), much emphasis on the need for Baha'is to help correct the many mistaken views about Islam, held by the majority of people in the West:

'There is so [much] misunderstanding about Islam in the West in general that you have to dispel. Your task is rather difficult and requires a good deal of erudition. Your chief task is to acquaint the friends with the pure teaching of the Prophet [Muhammad] as recorded in the Qur'án, and then to point out how these teachings have, throughout succeeding ages, influenced and guided the course of human development. In other words you have to show the position and significance of Islam in the history of civilization.'
- Shoghi Effendi, (the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith). Lights of Guidance, New Delhi: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 2nd rev. and enlarged edition, 1988, #1664.

2) The sacredness of Mecca in Baha'i?

The Faith standing identified with the name of Bahá'u'lláh disclaims any intention to belittle any of the Prophets gone before Him, to whittle down any of their teachings, to obscure, however slightly, the radiance of their Revelations, to oust them from the hearts of their followers, to abrogate the fundamentals of their doctrines, to discard any of their revealed Books, or to suppress the legitimate aspirations of their adherents. Repudiating the claim of any religion to be the final revelation of God to man, disclaiming finality for His own Revelation, Bahá'u'lláh inculcates the basic principle of the relativity of religious truth, the continuity of Divine Revelation, the progressiveness of religious experience. His aim is to widen the basis of all revealed religions and to unravel the mysteries of their scriptures. He insists on the unqualified recognition of the unity of their purpose, restates the eternal verities they enshrine, coordinates their functions, distinguishes the essential and the authentic from the nonessential and spurious in their teachings, separates the God-given truths from the priest-prompted superstitions, and on this as a basis proclaims the possibility, and even prophecies the inevitability, of their unification, and the consummation of their highest hopes.

As to Muhammad, the Apostle of God, let none among His followers who read these pages, think for a moment that either Islám, or its Prophet, or His Book, or His appointed Successors, or any of His authentic teachings, have been, or are to be in any way, or to however slight a degree, disparaged. The lineage of the Báb, the descendant of the Imám Husayn; the divers and striking evidences, in Nabíl's Narrative, of the attitude of the Herald of our Faith towards the Founder, the Imáms, and the Book of Islám; the glowing tributes paid by Bahá'u'lláh in the Kitáb-i-Íqán to Muhammad and His lawful Successors, and particularly to the "peerless and incomparable" Imám Husayn; the arguments adduced, forcibly, fearlessly, and publicly by `Abdu'l-Bahá, in churches and synagogues, to demonstrate the validity of the Message of the Arabian Prophet; and last but not least the written testimonial of the Queen of Rumania, who, born in the Anglican faith and notwithstanding the close alliance of her government with the Greek Orthodox Church, the state religion of her adopted country, has, largely as a result of the perusal of these public discourses of `Abdu'l-Bahá, been prompted to proclaim her recognition of the prophetic function of Muhammad-- all proclaim, in no uncertain terms, the true attitude of the Bahá'í Faith towards

At the same time the several holy places around the world: Mecca, Jerusalem, Canterbury, etc. still have religious significance. I wrote the following poem to place that significance in a context of personal meaning:
______________
RADIANT AXIS OF BEAUTY
Pilgrimages must have begun to be made by Mankind whereever and whenever one single shrine came to surpass its neighbours in prestige to a degree that moved the regular local votaries of the neighbouring shrines to reinsure their claim on the good graces of the numina by paying occasional or periodical visits to the preeminent shrine as well. -Arnold Toynbee, A Study of History, 1963(1954), Vol. 9, p.97.

Haramayn, Jerusalem, Bodh Gaya,
Najaf, Karbila, Mecca, Medina----
cynosures of worlds apart
through time and my time:
Wu-T’ai Shan, Omei, too,
gradually accumulating mana,
while Canterbury, Walsingham,
Kurasan,Lourdes, Lisieux
gave birth to shrine worlds
on pilgrimage-horizons, holy
grounds like Nazareth or Bethlehem,
pristine sacredness, soul-resorts,
spurs to superhuman effort,
to deft practitioners to protocols
of piety, rehearsed petitioners,
who even now, as they enter
that rare Presence on this sacred
mount, feast their eyes, gathering
memories for the time when they
must leave Carmel’s bony spine
and this radiant axis of beauty.

Amidst the sandy convolutions
of this landscape and its grainy,
parched surface where hot winds
mutter apocalyptically
a gleaming world arises.

Ron Price
26 December 1997
____________________
3) Why Baha'is celebrated Novruz?

The first day of the Baha'i year is March 21st. The Baha'i calendar begins on March 21st. It is a calendar designed by the Bab in the 1840s. The Baha'is now celebrate and live in the year 162 B.E.(i.e. Baha'i Era).
_____________________
I hope the above is helpful to you and I look forward to future questions should you desire to ask.-Ron Price, Tasmania.

[Goku]

Is it true that the Bahai Faith raises the status of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) or any other Prophet to an incarnation of God?

[RonPrice]

Concerning the uniqueness of Baha'u'llah's station and the greatness of His Revelation Shoghi Effendi, the leader of the Baha'i Faith from 1921 to 1957, affirms that the prophetic statements concerning the "Day of God", found in the Sacred Scriptures of past Dispensations, are fulfilled by the advent of Baha'u'llah:

To Israel He was neither more nor less than the
incarnation of the "Everlasting Father", the "Lord of
Hosts" come down "with ten thousands of saints"; to
Christendom Christ returned "in the glory of the Father";
to Shi'ah Islam the return of the Imam Husayn; to Sunni
Islam the descent of the "Spirit of God" (Jesus Christ); to
the Zoroastrians the promised Shah-Bahram; to the
Hindus the reincarnation of Krishna; to the Buddhists
the fifth Buddha.

Baha'u'llah describes the station of "Divinity" which He shares with all the
Manifestations of God as:

...the station in which one dieth to himself and liveth in
God. Divinity, whenever I mention it, indicateth My complete
and absolute self-effacement. This is the station in which I have
no control over mine own weal or woe nor over my life nor over my
resurrection.

And, regarding His own relationship to God, Baha'u'llah testifies that:

When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth
me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things "verily
I am God"; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it
coarser than clay!

I think this brief statement gives you some idea of the concept and the complexity of the issue we are delaing with here. It is not a simple black and white, yes and no, dichotomy. It's complex, subtle and somewhat elusive.-Ron Price, Tasmania.:thankyou:

[RonPrice]

I just saw some of the questions above which I did not answer. I'm pleased there are so many questions. You will have to give me some time. I only just realized how many questions there are here. I'll be back later after a meal and after some sleep.-Ron Price, Tasmania.

[Goku]

So i'll take that as a yes.

I'm not trying to diss the Bahai Faith, I' didnt even know about it until HeiGou mentioned it on this forum, I was surprised to learn that the Bahais accept Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and I respect them for that.

In Islam, we believe God is One, there is none like Him, He is the Creator and Sustainer, He doesnt have human attributes like the need to eat and sleep and He doesnt incarnate Himself.

[Ghazi]

:sl:

Whats a 'Baha'i' and whats their belifs?

[Link]

They reject the day of judgement:

http://www.h-net.msu.edu/~bahai/trans/bayan/bay2-7.htm

While they quote some verses and their twisted interpetation may hold possible to those, other verses refute their claim.

Bismallah


Ibraheem (as) asking forgiveness and protect from day of judgement

014.041
YUSUFALI: "O our Lord! cover (us) with Thy Forgiveness - me, my parents, and (all) Believers, on the Day that the Reckoning will be established!
PICKTHAL: Our Lord! Forgive me and my parents and believers on the day when the account is cast.
SHAKIR: O our Lord! grant me protection and my parents and the believers on the day when the reckoning shall come to pass!
026.082
YUSUFALI: "And who, I hope, will forgive me my faults on the day of Judgment.
PICKTHAL: And Who, I ardently hope, will forgive me my sin on the Day of Judgment.
SHAKIR: And Who, I hope, will forgive me my mistakes on the day of judgment.
026.087
YUSUFALI: "And let me not be in disgrace on the Day when (men) will be raised up;-
PICKTHAL: And abase me not on the day when they are raised,
SHAKIR: And disgrace me not on the day when they are raised

The people wishing to follow messengers on the day of judgement
014.042
YUSUFALI: Think not that Allah doth not heed the deeds of those who do wrong. He but giveth them respite against a Day when the eyes will fixedly stare in horror,-
PICKTHAL: Deem not that Allah is unaware of what the wicked do. He but giveth them a respite till a day when eyes will stare (in terror),
SHAKIR: And do not think Allah to be heedless of what the unjust do; He only respites them to a day on which the eyes shall be fixedly open,
014.043
YUSUFALI: They running forward with necks outstretched, their heads uplifted, their gaze returning not towards them, and their hearts a (gaping) void!
PICKTHAL: As they come hurrying on in fear, their heads upraised, their gaze returning not to them, and their hearts as air.
SHAKIR: Hastening forward, their heads upraised, their eyes not reverting to them and their hearts vacant.
014.044
YUSUFALI: So warn mankind of the Day when the Wrath will reach them: then will the wrong-doers say: "Our Lord! respite us (if only) for a short term: we will answer Thy call, and follow the messengers!" "What! were ye not wont to swear aforetime that ye should suffer no decline?
PICKTHAL: And warn mankind of a day when the doom will come upon them, and those who did wrong will say: Our Lord! Reprieve us for a little while. We will obey Thy call and will follow the messengers. (It will be answered): Did ye not swear before that there would be no end for you?
SHAKIR: And warn people of the day when the chastisement shall come to them, then those who were unjust will say: O our Lord! respite us to a near term, (so) we shall respond to Thy call and follow the messengers. What! did you not swear before (that) there will be no passing away for you!

People admitting they were wrong wishing to follow the right path on the day of judgement
026.097
YUSUFALI: "'By Allah, we were truly in an error manifest,
PICKTHAL: By Allah, of a truth we were in error manifest
SHAKIR: By Allah! we were certainly in manifest error,
026.098
YUSUFALI: "'When we held you as equals with the Lord of the Worlds;
PICKTHAL: When we made you equal with the Lord of the Worlds.
SHAKIR: When we made you equal to the Lord of the worlds;
026.099
YUSUFALI: "'And our seducers were only those who were steeped in guilt.
PICKTHAL: It was but the guilty who misled us.
SHAKIR: And none but the guilty led us astray;
026.100
YUSUFALI: "'Now, then, we have none to intercede (for us),
PICKTHAL: Now we have no intercessors
SHAKIR: So we have no intercessors,
026.101
YUSUFALI: "'Nor a single friend to feel (for us).
PICKTHAL: Nor any loving friend.
SHAKIR: Nor a true friend;
026.102
YUSUFALI: "'Now if we only had a chance of return we shall truly be of those who believe!'"
PICKTHAL: Oh, that we had another turn (on earth), that we might be of the believers!
SHAKIR: But if we could but once return, we would be of the believers.

No soul can effect another soul this day

082.019
YUSUFALI: (It will be) the Day when no soul shall have power (to do) aught for another: For the command, that Day, will be (wholly) with Allah.
PICKTHAL: A day on which no soul hath power at all for any (other) soul. The (absolute) command on that day is Allah's.
SHAKIR: The day on which no soul shall control anything for (another) soul; and the command on that day shall be entirely Allah's.

The months are twelve from the first day of creation (so where does the 19 months calander come?)
009.036
YUSUFALI: The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve (in a year)- so ordained by Him the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred: that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein, and fight the Pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.
PICKTHAL: Lo! the number of the months with Allah is twelve months by Allah's ordinance in the day that He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred: that is the right religion. So wrong not yourselves in them. And wage war on all of the idolaters as they are waging war on all of you. And know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).
SHAKIR: Surely the number of months with Allah is twelve months in Allah's ordinance since the day when He created the heavens and the earth, of these four being sacred; that is the right reckoning; therefore be not unjust to yourselves regarding them, and fight the polytheists all together as they fight you all together; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

Believers will laugh now

083.029
YUSUFALI: Those in sin used to laugh at those who believed,
PICKTHAL: Lo! the guilty used to laugh at those who believed,
SHAKIR: Surely they who are guilty used to laugh at those who believe.
083.030
YUSUFALI: And whenever they passed by them, used to wink at each other (in mockery);
PICKTHAL: And wink one to another when they passed them;
SHAKIR: And when they passed by them, they winked at one another.
083.031
YUSUFALI: And when they returned to their own people, they would return jesting;
PICKTHAL: And when they returned to their own folk, they returned jesting;
SHAKIR: And when they returned to their own followers they returned exulting.
083.032
YUSUFALI: And whenever they saw them, they would say, "Behold! These are the people truly astray!"
PICKTHAL: And when they saw them they said: Lo! these have gone astray.
SHAKIR: And when they saw them, they said: Most surely these are in error;
083.033
YUSUFALI: But they had not been sent as keepers over them!
PICKTHAL: Yet they were not sent as guardians over them.
SHAKIR: And they were not sent to be keepers over them.
083.034
YUSUFALI: But on this Day the Believers will laugh at the Unbelievers:
PICKTHAL: This day it is those who believe who have the laugh of disbelievers,
SHAKIR: So today those who believe shall laugh at the unbelievers;
083.035
YUSUFALI: On Thrones (of Dignity) they will command (a sight) (of all things).
PICKTHAL: On high couches, gazing.
SHAKIR: On thrones, they will look.
083.036
YUSUFALI: Will not the Unbelievers have been paid back for what they did?
PICKTHAL: Are not the disbelievers paid for what they used to do?
SHAKIR: Surely the disbelievers are rewarded as they did.
Some conversations and realities that will occur

007.043
YUSUFALI: And We shall remove from their hearts any lurking sense of injury;- beneath them will be rivers flowing;- and they shall say: "Praise be to Allah, who hath guided us to this (felicity): never could we have found guidance, had it not been for the guidance of Allah: indeed it was the truth, that the messengers of our Lord brought unto us." And they shall hear the cry: "Behold! the garden before you! Ye have been made its inheritors, for your deeds (of righteousness)."
PICKTHAL: And We remove whatever rancour may be in their hearts. Rivers flow beneath them. And they say: The praise to Allah, Who hath guided us to this. We could not truly have been led aright if Allah had not guided us. Verily the messengers of our Lord did bring the Truth. And it is cried unto them: This is the Garden. Ye inherit it for what ye used to do.
SHAKIR: And We will remove whatever of ill-feeling is in their breasts; the rivers shall flow beneath them and they shall say: All praise is due to Allah Who guided us to this, and we would not have found the way had it not been that Allah had guided us; certainly the messengers of our Lord brought the truth; and it shall be cried out to them that this is the garden of which you are made heirs for what you did.
007.044
YUSUFALI: The Companions of the Garden will call out to the Companions of the Fire: "We have indeed found the promises of our Lord to us true: Have you also found Your Lord's promises true?" They shall say, "Yes"; but a crier shall proclaim between them: "The curse of Allah is on the wrong-doers;-
PICKTHAL: And the dwellers of the Garden cry unto the dwellers of the Fire: We have found that which our Lord promised us (to be) the Truth. Have ye (too) found that which your Lord promised the Truth? They say: Yea, verily. And a crier in between them crieth: The curse of Allah is on evil-doers,
SHAKIR: And the dwellers of the garden will call out to the inmates of the fire: Surely we have found what our Lord promised us to be true; have you too found what your Lord promised to be true? They will say: Yes. Then a crier will cry out among them that the curse of Allah is on the unjust.
007.045
YUSUFALI: "Those who would hinder (men) from the path of Allah and would seek in it something crooked: they were those who denied the Hereafter."
PICKTHAL: Who debar (men) from the path of Allah and would have it crooked, and who are disbelievers in the Last Day.
SHAKIR: Who hinder (people) from Allah's way and seek to make it crooked, and they are disbelievers in the hereafter.
007.046
YUSUFALI: Between them shall be a veil, and on the heights will be men who would know every one by his marks: they will call out to the Companions of the Garden, "peace on you": they will not have entered, but they will have an assurance (thereof).
PICKTHAL: Between them is a veil. And on the Heights are men who know them all by their marks. And they call unto the dwellers of the Garden: Peace be unto you! They enter it not although they hope (to enter).
SHAKIR: And between the two there shall be a veil, and on the most elevated places there shall be men who know all by their marks, and they shall call out to the dwellers of the garden: Peace be on you; they shall not have yet entered it, though they hope.
007.047
YUSUFALI: When their eyes shall be turned towards the Companions of the Fire, they will say: "Our Lord! send us not to the company of the wrong-doers."
PICKTHAL: And when their eyes are turned toward the dwellers of the Fire, they say: Our Lord! Place us not with the wrong-doing folk.
SHAKIR: And when their eyes shall be turned towards the inmates of the fire, they shall say: Our Lord! place us not with the unjust
007.048
YUSUFALI: The men on the heights will call to certain men whom they will know from their marks, saying: "Of what profit to you were your hoards and your arrogant ways?
PICKTHAL: And the dwellers on the Heights call unto men whom they know by their marks, (saying): What did your multitude and that in which ye took your pride avail you?
SHAKIR: And the dwellers of the most elevated places shall ca!l out to men whom they will recognize by their marks saying: Of no avail were to you your amassings and your behaving haughtily:
007.049
YUSUFALI: "Behold! are these not the men whom you swore that Allah with His Mercy would never bless? Enter ye the Garden: no fear shall be on you, nor shall ye grieve."
PICKTHAL: Are these they of whom ye swore that Allah would not show them mercy? (Unto them it hath been said): Enter the Garden. No fear shall come upon you nor is it ye who will grieve.
SHAKIR: Are these they about whom you swore that Allah will not bestow mercy on them? Enter the garden; you shall have no fear, nor shall you grieve.
007.050
YUSUFALI: The Companions of the Fire will call to the Companions of the Garden: "Pour down to us water or anything that Allah doth provide for your sustenance." They will say: "Both these things hath Allah forbidden to those who rejected Him."
PICKTHAL: And the dwellers of the Fire cry out unto the dwellers of the Garden: Pour on us some water or some wherewith Allah hath provided you. They say: Lo! Allah hath forbidden both to disbelievers (in His guidance),
SHAKIR: And the inmates of the fire shall call out to the dwellers of the garden, saying: Pour on us some water or of that which Allah has given you. They shall say: Surely Allah has prohibited them both to the unbelievers.
007.051
YUSUFALI: "Such as took their religion to be mere amusement and play, and were deceived by the life of the world." That day shall We forget them as they forgot the meeting of this day of theirs, and as they were wont to reject Our signs.
PICKTHAL: Who took their religion for a sport and pastime, and whom the life of the world beguiled. So this day We have forgotten them even as they forgot the meeting of this their Day and as they used to deny Our tokens.
SHAKIR: Who take their religion for an idle sport and a play and this life's world deceives them; so today We forsake them, as they neglected the meeting of this day of theirs and as they denied Our communications.
007.052
YUSUFALI: For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.
PICKTHAL: Verily We have brought them a Scripture which We expounded with knowledge, a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.
SHAKIR: And certainly We have brought them a Book which We have made clear with knowledge, a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.
007.053
YUSUFALI: Do they just wait for the final fulfilment of the event? On the day the event is finally fulfilled, those who disregarded it before will say: "The messengers of our Lord did indeed bring true (tidings). Have we no intercessors now to intercede on our behalf? Or could we be sent back? then should we behave differently from our behaviour in the past." In fact they will have lost their souls, and the things they invented will leave them in the lurch.
PICKTHAL: Await they aught save the fulfilment thereof? On the day when the fulfilment thereof cometh, those who were before forgetful thereof will say: The messengers of our Lord did bring the Truth! Have we any intercessors, that they may intercede for us? Or can we be returned (to life on earth), that we may act otherwise than we used to act? They have lost their souls, and that which they devised hath failed them.
SHAKIR: Do they wait for aught but its final sequel? On the day when its final sequel comes about, those who neglected it before will say: Indeed the messengers of our Lord brought the truth; are there for us then any intercessors so that they should intercede on our behalf? Or could we be sent back so that we should do (deeds) other than those which we did? Indeed they have lost their souls and that which they forged has gone away from them.


wasalam

[Woodrow]

iI know virtualy nothing about Ba'hai. Welcome to the group and thank you for being willing to share your beliefs.

We may not agree, but we can agree to disagree peacefully and with respect.

[RonPrice]

I have been posting at various Islamic internet sites for two or three years; I have had some contact with Muslims, from time to time at various places I have lived in both Canada and Australia since the 1950s when I first became a Baha'i; I have read a great deal about Islamic history. I have always been impressed with my contact with this history and generally enjoyed my experience.

Of course I am aware that this history is not all one of sweetness and light. Like all histories and, might I say, all individuals, there is a dark side. The Baha'is in Iran have had a very difficult time to say the least in the 160 year history there. Some 20 to 30 thousand believers have been murdered, raped, imprisoned and tortured in various degrees. The Baha'i Faith in other Islamic countries has not enjoyed the freedom one would like. In 1962 this Faith was outlawed in Indonesia and it remained that was for many years.

But, as you say, there is no reason why people who differ intellectually can not talk to each other. For many Baha'is in Iran it was better for them to leave and so they joined the millions of refugees around the world for whom talking to their countrymen was not advirseable. It was better to get out. If the heat goes up, as they often say, it is better to get out of the kitchen. At this site, there is a good degree of warm acceptance of difference. For that, I am appreciative.-Ron Price, Tasmania.:uhwhat

[Skillganon]

Well, what Bahai say about ISLAM?

1. Is it true?
If it is true than I will stay as a muslim, no reason to become a bahai,

2. Is it false?

Than produce your proof and I we will produce ours.

Peace!

[RonPrice]

Well, what Bahai say about ISLAM?

The following paragraphs give you some idea:

How Baha'is View Islam
"Blessing and peace be upon Him [Muhammad] through Whose advent Bathá [Mecca] is wreathed in smiles, and the sweet savours of Whose raiment have shed fragrance upon all mankind-- He Who came to protect men from that which would harm them in the world below. Exalted, immensely exalted is His station above the glorification of all beings and sanctified from the praise of the entire creation. Through His advent the tabernacle of stability and order was raised throughout the world and the ensign of knowledge hoisted among the nations. May blessings rest also upon His kindred and His companions through whom the standard of the unity of God and of His singleness was uplifted and the banners of celestial triumph were unfurled. Through them the religion of God was firmly established among His creatures and His Name magnified amidst His servants."

- Tablets of Baha'u'llah revealed after the Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 162

Even though the Baha'i Faith is an independent religion and is not a sect of Islam, we find in the writings of Shoghi Effendi (the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith 1921-1957), much emphasis on the need for Baha'is to help correct the many mistaken views about Islam, held by the majority of people in the West:

'There is so [much] misunderstanding about Islam in the West in general that you have to dispel. Your task is rather difficult and requires a good deal of erudition. Your chief task is to acquaint the friends with the pure teaching of the Prophet [Muhammad] as recorded in the Qur'án, and then to point out how these teachings have, throughout succeeding ages, influenced[,] nay[,] guided the course of human development. In other words you have to show the position and significance of Islam in the history of civilization.'

- Shoghi Effendi, (the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith). Lights of Guidance, New Delhi: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 2nd rev. and enlarged edition, 1988, #1664.
_____________________
1. Is it true?---yes

But like Christianity and the Jewish Faith there are many, many interpretations on "proof and prophecy." Here are some Baha'i views on your questions of proof and prophecy:
Proof and Prophecy
Baha'is and Muslims both believe in the Oneness of God, and so it should not be surprising for believers in the oneness of God to see the commonality of many of God's teachings in most religions. All religions came to help us learn about God, and about His Will and Plan. They all came to teach us how to live with one another in peace and brotherhood, and how to better ourselves.

One theme that is common among most religions is the promise of redemption, renewal of religion and salvation, through the coming of a Promised One, to "fill earth with justice as it has been filled with tyranny", (or in Christian terminology, to establish God's Kingdom on earth, as it is in heaven). Each group has called this Promised One by a different name: "Al- Mahdi" (the Guided One), "Al-Qa'im" (the One who Rises), "Sahibul Zaman" (Lord of the Age), Lord of Hosts. Muslims are also promised the return of Jesus (PBUH), as do Christians also await the second coming of Christ. Other religions also await their own Promised One, Whom they know by other different names.

All religions also, warn of false prophets. They warn of the "Dajjal" (the Liar, the one who misguides). They warn of the anti-christ.

So how does one distinguish between the truth and falsehood? Are we left on our own to find out? Would it be better to play it safe and reject all claimants?

What should be obvious is that, the very fact that we are warned of false prophets, should tell us that the True One is surely to come, (albeit it would not be easy to recognize Him). Otherwise, if we weren't admonished to believe in such glad tidings, or if the signs and proofs were to be so clear and obvious, the false ones wouldn't think that they had a chance to impersonate Him falsely. They wouldn't even try, because we would not be expecting anyone to come in the first place.

God says that as long as we make an effort to seek His guidance, His mercy will protect us from being misguided by others:

"And (as for) those who strive hard for Us, We will most certainly guide them in Our ways; and Allah is most surely with the doers of good."
- Qur'an 29:69
__________________________
That's enough for now. And peace be to you as well.-Ron Price, Tasmania.
___________________
If it is true than I will stay as a muslim, no reason to become a bahai,
---that is okay. there should be no compulsion in religion. People should be free to believe or not to believe. You might like the following on the question of interference with the beliefs of others. Some religious leaders in Iran have "thought that violence and interference would cause extinction and silence and lead to suppression and oblivion; whereas interference in matters of conscience causes stability and firmness and attracts the attention of men's sight and souls; which fact has received experimental proof many times and often. So this punishment caused notoriety, and most men fell to making inquiry."(`Abdu'l-Baha: A Traveler's Narrative, Page: 6)

2. Is it false?-no

Than produce your proof and I we will produce ours.--I have said enough in the above, for now.-Ron:statisfie
_________________
Peace!

[Skillganon]

Well, what Bahai say about ISLAM?

The following paragraphs give you some idea:

How Baha'is View Islam
"Blessing and peace be upon Him [Muhammad] through Whose advent Bathá [Mecca] is wreathed in smiles, and the sweet savours of Whose raiment have shed fragrance upon all mankind-- He Who came to protect men from that which would harm them in the world below. Exalted, immensely exalted is His station above the glorification of all beings and sanctified from the praise of the entire creation. Through His advent the tabernacle of stability and order was raised throughout the world and the ensign of knowledge hoisted among the nations. May blessings rest also upon His kindred and His companions through whom the standard of the unity of God and of His singleness was uplifted and the banners of celestial triumph were unfurled. Through them the religion of God was firmly established among His creatures and His Name magnified amidst His servants."
- Tablets of Baha'u'llah revealed after the Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 162

Well, this is a good way of not answering my question, but I do question the genuineness of Mirza Husayn Ali Nuri.

Even though the Baha'i Faith is an independent religion and is not a sect of Islam, we find in the writings of Shoghi Effendi (the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith 1921-1957), much emphasis on the need for Baha'is to help correct the many mistaken views about Islam, held by the majority of people in the West:

Well, we don't really need Bahai's help in correcting mistaken view about ISLAM, who better than to do it than muslims themselve. So yoou can keep the gradson of Mirza Husayn Ali Nuri with yourself i.e. Shoghi Effendi to yourself without need to consult his father Abbas Effendi.
I am aware wheter bahai is not a sect of ISLAM as I have no evidence for not being so.

'There is so [much] misunderstanding about Islam in the West in general that you have to dispel. Your task is rather difficult and requires a good deal of erudition. Your chief task is to acquaint the friends with the pure teaching of the Prophet [Muhammad] as recorded in the Qur'án, and then to point out how these teachings have, throughout succeeding ages, influenced[,] nay[,] guided the course of human development. In other words you have to show the position and significance of Islam in the history of civilization.'

Well trying to confuse people more about ISLAM is not a good away to go into it, but it will be a good tactic to obscure the truth.

1. Is it true?---yes

But like Christianity and the Jewish Faith there are many, many interpretations on "proof and prophecy." Here are some Baha'i views on your questions of proof and prophecy:
Proof and Prophecy
Baha'is and Muslims both believe in the Oneness of God, and so it should not be surprising for believers in the oneness of God to see the commonality of many of God's teachings in most religions. All religions came to help us learn about God, and about His Will and Plan. They all came to teach us how to live with one another in peace and brotherhood, and how to better ourselves.

Yeah ISLAM emphasis peace and brotherhood, and the great ummah, the UNITY, but logically speaking if bahai, creates a new sect, than it is only trying to break this unity, it's is rather illogical for a new religion to come when ALLAH (s.w.t) has already perfected.

One theme that is common among most religions is the promise of redemption, renewal of religion and salvation, through the coming of a Promised One, to "fill earth with justice as it has been filled with tyranny", (or in Christian terminology, to establish God's Kingdom on earth, as it is in heaven). Each group has called this Promised One by a different name: "Al- Mahdi" (the Guided One), "Al-Qa'im" (the One who Rises), "Sahibul Zaman" (Lord of the Age), Lord of Hosts. Muslims are also promised the return of Jesus (PBUH), as do Christians also await the second coming of Christ. Other religions also await their own Promised One, Whom they know by other different names.

All religions also, warn of false prophets. They warn of the "Dajjal" (the Liar, the one who misguides). They warn of the anti-christ.

So how does one distinguish between the truth and falsehood? Are we left on our own to find out? Would it be better to play it safe and reject all claimants?

What should be obvious is that, the very fact that we are warned of false prophets, should tell us that the True One is surely to come, (albeit it would not be easy to recognize Him). Otherwise, if we weren't admonished to believe in such glad tidings, or if the signs and proofs were to be so clear and obvious, the false ones wouldn't think that they had a chance to impersonate Him falsely. They wouldn't even try, because we would not be expecting anyone to come in the first place.

God says that as long as we make an effort to seek His guidance, His mercy will protect us from being misguided by others:

"And (as for) those who strive hard for Us, We will most certainly guide them in Our ways; and Allah is most surely with the doers of good."
- Qur'an 29:69

Yeah good logic, no way to distinguish validity of the babis, well I strived hard and found ISLAM, peace I found the right religion. Next we will waiting for another to come and claim his a prophet of God. Than another, than another.

__________________________
That's enough for now. And peace be to you as well.-Ron Price, Tasmania.
___________________

If it is true than I will stay as a muslim, no reason to become a bahai,
---that is okay. there should be no compulsion in religion. People should be free to believe or not to believe. You might like the following on the question of interference with the beliefs of others. Some religious leaders in Iran have "thought that violence and interference would cause extinction and silence and lead to suppression and oblivion; whereas interference in matters of conscience causes stability and firmness and attracts the attention of men's sight and souls; which fact has received experimental proof many times and often. So this punishment caused notoriety, and most men fell to making inquiry."(`Abdu'l-Baha: A Traveler's Narrative, Page: 6)

I know the about the verse of no compulsion, not very enlightening when you are already talking to a muslim. Now about violence, it is not just some people in Iran has done so, but you will know Bahai's has commited such violence too. Or are you in a position to think bahai is not capable.

2. Is it false?-no

Than produce your proof and I we will produce ours.--I have said enough in the above, for now.-Ron:statisfie
_________________
Peace!

Ron you have not produce nothing of ISLAM being anyhow wrong, and that Bahai faith is right. So peace.


Out of curiosity are you allowed to preach to people about Bahai faith?

[RonPrice]

Millions of Jews were never convinced of the truth of the Christian Faith; millions of Christians have never been convinced of the truth of Islam and millions of Muslims have not been convinced of the truth of the Baha'i religion. I do not expect every, most, of even many to be convinced by my efforts. Whether someone is convinced of the truth of a religion or not seems in some cases to have little to do with whether it is true or false. In other cases the person is convinced by reason and in still other cases it appears to be the mysterious dispensations of Providence or, as it is sometimes said, the will of God.

I thank you for your considered and thoughtful response. For now, we will have to agree to disagree.-Ron Price, Tasmania.

[north_malaysian]

Do Baha'is accept Qadianis?

[RonPrice]

My understanding of Qadianiyyah is that it is: a movement that started in 1900 CE as a plot by the British colonialists in the Indian subcontinent, with the aim of diverting Muslims away from their religion and from the obligation of jihaad in particular, so that they would not oppose colonialism in the name of Islam. The mouthpiece of this movement is the magazine Majallat Al-Adyaan (Magazine if Religions) which was published in English.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad al-Qadiani (1839-1908 CE) was the main tool by means of which Qadianiyyah was founded. He was born in the village of Qadian, in the Punjab, in India, in 1839 CE and its name is derived from this village. He came from a family that was well known for having betrayed its religion and country, so Ghulam Ahmad grew up loyal and obedient to the colonialists in every sense. Thus he was chosen for the role of a so-called prophet, so that the Muslims would gather around him and he would distract them from waging jihaad against the English colonialists. The British government did lots of favours for them, so they were loyal to the British. Ghulam Ahmad was known among his followers to be unstable, with a lot of health problems and dependent on drugs.

Among those who confronted him was Shaykh Abu’l-Wafa’ Thana’ al-Amritsari, the leader of Jama’iyyat Ahl al-Hadeeth fi ‘Umoom al-Hind (The All-India Society of Ahl al-Hadeeth). The Shaykh debated with him and refuted his arguments, revealing his ulterior motives and Kufr and the deviation of his way. When Ghulam Ahmad did not come to his senses, Shaykh Abu’l-Wafa’ challenged him to come together and invoke the curse of Allaah, such that the one who was lying would die in the lifetime of the one who was telling the truth. Only a few days passed before Mirza Ghulam Ahmad al-Qadiani died, in 1908 CE, leaving behind more than fifty books, pamphlets and articles, among the most important of which are: Izaalat al-Awhaam (Dispelling illusions), I’jaaz Ahmadi (Ahmadi miracles), Baraaheen Ahmadiyyah (Ahmadi proofs), Anwaar al-Islam (Lights of Islam), I’jaaz al-Maseeh (Miracles of the Messiah), al-Tableegh (Conveying (the message))and Tajalliyyaat Ilaahiyyah (Divine manifestations).

Noor al-Deen (Nuruddin): the first Khaleefah of the Qadianis. The British put the crown of Khilaafah on his head, so the disciples (of Ghulam Ahmad) followed him. Among his books is: Fasl al-Khitaab (Definitive statement).

Muhammad Ali and Khojah Kamaal al-Deen: the two leaders of the Lahore Qadianis. They are the ones who gave the final shape to the movement. The former produced a distorted translation into English of the Qur’aan. His other works include: Haqeeqat al-Ikhtilaaf (The reality of differences), al-Nubuwwah fi’l-Islam (Prophethood in Islam) and al-Deen al-Islami (The Islamic religion). As for Khojah Kamaal al-Deen, he wrote a book called al-Mathal al-A’laa fi’l-Anbiya’ (The highest example of the Prophets), and other books. This Lahore group of Ahmadis are those who think of Ghulam Ahmad as a Mujaddid (renewer or reviver of Islam) only, but both groups are viewed as a single movement because odd ideas that are not seen in the one will surely be found in the other.

Such, in brief, is my knowledge of this movement. Feel free to correct any faslse impressions I may have because, as I say, I really know little of this movement. The Baha'i teachings do not mention this man or this movement among the list of the great religions, the great Prophets, Manifestations of God, the Great Teachers like: Moses, Jesus, Muhammed, Buddha and, more recently, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.-Ron Price, Tasmania.

[RonPrice]

There are many Baha'i internet sites to provide anyone who wants with basic information. Try:

bahai.org(official international site)
bahaidex.com
bahai-library.org

among many others.

-Ron Price
Tasmania

[north_malaysian]

My understanding of Qadianiyyah is that it is: a movement that started in 1900 CE as a plot by the British colonialists in the Indian subcontinent, with the aim of diverting Muslims away from their religion and from the obligation of jihaad in particular, so that they would not oppose colonialism in the name of Islam. The mouthpiece of this movement is the magazine Majallat Al-Adyaan (Magazine if Religions) which was published in English.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad al-Qadiani (1839-1908 CE) was the main tool by means of which Qadianiyyah was founded. He was born in the village of Qadian, in the Punjab, in India, in 1839 CE and its name is derived from this village. He came from a family that was well known for having betrayed its religion and country, so Ghulam Ahmad grew up loyal and obedient to the colonialists in every sense. Thus he was chosen for the role of a so-called prophet, so that the Muslims would gather around him and he would distract them from waging jihaad against the English colonialists. The British government did lots of favours for them, so they were loyal to the British. Ghulam Ahmad was known among his followers to be unstable, with a lot of health problems and dependent on drugs.

Among those who confronted him was Shaykh Abu’l-Wafa’ Thana’ al-Amritsari, the leader of Jama’iyyat Ahl al-Hadeeth fi ‘Umoom al-Hind (The All-India Society of Ahl al-Hadeeth). The Shaykh debated with him and refuted his arguments, revealing his ulterior motives and Kufr and the deviation of his way. When Ghulam Ahmad did not come to his senses, Shaykh Abu’l-Wafa’ challenged him to come together and invoke the curse of Allaah, such that the one who was lying would die in the lifetime of the one who was telling the truth. Only a few days passed before Mirza Ghulam Ahmad al-Qadiani died, in 1908 CE, leaving behind more than fifty books, pamphlets and articles, among the most important of which are: Izaalat al-Awhaam (Dispelling illusions), I’jaaz Ahmadi (Ahmadi miracles), Baraaheen Ahmadiyyah (Ahmadi proofs), Anwaar al-Islam (Lights of Islam), I’jaaz al-Maseeh (Miracles of the Messiah), al-Tableegh (Conveying (the message))and Tajalliyyaat Ilaahiyyah (Divine manifestations).

Noor al-Deen (Nuruddin): the first Khaleefah of the Qadianis. The British put the crown of Khilaafah on his head, so the disciples (of Ghulam Ahmad) followed him. Among his books is: Fasl al-Khitaab (Definitive statement).

Muhammad Ali and Khojah Kamaal al-Deen: the two leaders of the Lahore Qadianis. They are the ones who gave the final shape to the movement. The former produced a distorted translation into English of the Qur’aan. His other works include: Haqeeqat al-Ikhtilaaf (The reality of differences), al-Nubuwwah fi’l-Islam (Prophethood in Islam) and al-Deen al-Islami (The Islamic religion). As for Khojah Kamaal al-Deen, he wrote a book called al-Mathal al-A’laa fi’l-Anbiya’ (The highest example of the Prophets), and other books. This Lahore group of Ahmadis are those who think of Ghulam Ahmad as a Mujaddid (renewer or reviver of Islam) only, but both groups are viewed as a single movement because odd ideas that are not seen in the one will surely be found in the other.

Such, in brief, is my knowledge of this movement. Feel free to correct any faslse impressions I may have because, as I say, I really know little of this movement. The Baha'i teachings do not mention this man or this movement among the list of the great religions, the great Prophets, Manifestations of God, the Great Teachers like: Moses, Jesus, Muhammed, Buddha and, more recently, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.-Ron Price, Tasmania.

From, my understanding, Baha'is wont accept the Qadiani prophet, would they?

Actually the Lahori branch are accepted as Sunni Muslims because they only refer Mirza Ghulam ahmad as Mujaddid only. Even Al Azhar religious authority accept the Lahoris as Sunnis.

[RonPrice]

I have often been asked in the 53 years I have been associated with the Baha'i Faith whether such and such a person is included in the Baha'i pantheon of prophets, messengers from God and Great Teachers with a capital "T." People of North American Indian background have asked me about several Indian religious figures in Indian prophetic history; people of Chinese background have asked about Confucious; indeed, the various races, indigenous groups, ethnic affiliations, national and religious associations have asked about a particular personage and whether that personage is or should be included in the Baha'i enumeration of special Figures in history with a capital "F."

Although there is what you might call 'a cross-cultural-messianism' in the Baha'i Faith and an attmept to see the similarities between all the peoples of the world and their respective religions and traditions, only certain Souls in history are included in that special group. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad al-Qadiani (1839-1908 CE) has not been included in that group, as far as I know.-Ron Price, Tasmania

[north_malaysian]

I have often been asked in the 53 years I have been associated with the Baha'i Faith whether such and such a person is included in the Baha'i pantheon of prophets, messengers from God and Great Teachers with a capital "T." People of North American Indian background have asked me about several Indian religious figures in Indian prophetic history; people of Chinese background have asked about Confucious; indeed, the various races, indigenous groups, ethnic affiliations, national and religious associations have asked about a particular personage and whether that personage is or should be included in the Baha'i enumeration of special Figures in history with a capital "F."

Although there is what you might call 'a cross-cultural-messianism' in the Baha'i Faith and an attmept to see the similarities between all the peoples of the world and their respective religions and traditions, only certain Souls in history are included in that special group. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad al-Qadiani (1839-1908 CE) has not been included in that group, as far as I know.-Ron Price, Tasmania

You live in George Town, Tasmania?

I was born in George Town, Malaysia.

Same name of town but in different countries. When was your town founded? Mine was in 1786.

[RonPrice]

The manager of our local post office tells me there are 16 George Towns in the world. I've never checked this out. This one in Tasmania was founded in 1804. It's the oldest tonw in Australia. Sydney and Hobart are older but they are now cities; whereas George Town is still a town with about 7000 inhabitants. King George the 3rd spread his name around the world or, should I say, his name was spread by others. To conclude with a brief history of this particular King let me add that:

"George III (George William Frederick) (4 June 1738 – 29 January 1820) was King of Great Britain and King of Ireland from 25 October 1760 until 1 January 1801, and thereafter King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland until his death. He was concurrently Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg, and thus Elector (and later King) of Hanover. The Electorate became the Kingdom of Hanover on 12 October 1814. George was the third British monarch of the House of Hanover, but the first to be born in Britain and use English as his first language. During George III's reign, Britain lost many of its colonies in North America, which became the United States. Also during his reign, the realms of Great Britain and Ireland were joined together to form the United Kingdom.

Later in his reign George III suffered from recurrent and eventually permanent mental illness. It is thought now that he suffered from mental and nervous disorders as a consequence of the blood disease porphyria, which struck several British monarchs. Recently, owing to studies showing high levels of the poison arsenic in King George's hair, arsenic is also thought to be a possible cause of King George's insanity and health problems. After a final relapse in 1811, George's eldest son, The Prince George, Prince of Wales ruled as Prince Regent. Upon George's death, the Prince of Wales succeeded his father as George IV."

This may not interest you that much but it is entirely possible that your town was also named after this King.-Ron:statisfie

George III has been nicknamed Farmer George, for "his plain, homely, thrifty manners and tastes" and because of his passionate interest in agriculture.

[north_malaysian]

The manager of our local post office tells me there are 16 George Towns in the world. I've never checked this out. This one in Tasmania was founded in 1804. It's the oldest tonw in Australia. Sydney and Hobart are older but they are now cities; whereas George Town is still a town with about 7000 inhabitants. King George the 3rd spread his name around the world or, should I say, his name was spread by others. To conclude with a brief history of this particular King let me add that:

"George III (George William Frederick) (4 June 1738 – 29 January 1820) was King of Great Britain and King of Ireland from 25 October 1760 until 1 January 1801, and thereafter King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland until his death. He was concurrently Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg, and thus Elector (and later King) of Hanover. The Electorate became the Kingdom of Hanover on 12 October 1814. George was the third British monarch of the House of Hanover, but the first to be born in Britain and use English as his first language. During George III's reign, Britain lost many of its colonies in North America, which became the United States. Also during his reign, the realms of Great Britain and Ireland were joined together to form the United Kingdom.

Later in his reign George III suffered from recurrent and eventually permanent mental illness. It is thought now that he suffered from mental and nervous disorders as a consequence of the blood disease porphyria, which struck several British monarchs. Recently, owing to studies showing high levels of the poison arsenic in King George's hair, arsenic is also thought to be a possible cause of King George's insanity and health problems. After a final relapse in 1811, George's eldest son, The Prince George, Prince of Wales ruled as Prince Regent. Upon George's death, the Prince of Wales succeeded his father as George IV."

This may not interest you that much but it is entirely possible that your town was also named after this King.-Ron:statisfie

George III has been nicknamed Farmer George, for "his plain, homely, thrifty manners and tastes" and because of his passionate interest in agriculture.

Yupp, u r right. It's named after King George III. It was open by Captain Francis Light in 1786 as a fort called Fort Cornwallis. Then after the fort became bigger and more prosper they named it as George Town. The population is about 180,000. It's the state capital for Penang Island. George Town is the most 'British' town in Malaysia when it comes to buildings. The populations are 70% Chinese, 15% Malays/Muslims, 10% Indians, 5% others including English, Scottish, Dutch, Thais, Burmese, Japanese, Koreans, Germans and Eurasians. Before WWII there are Armenians and Jews from Iraq, India, UK and Romania. Now the Armenians are extinct and less than 10 Jews living in George Town.

[syilla]

love to learn something about malaysia...

[imranshaykh]

There are many Baha'i internet sites to provide anyone who wants with basic information. Try:

bahai.org(official international site)
bahaidex.com
bahai-library.org

among many others.

-Ron Price
Tasmania

You can also refer to www.bahaiawareness.com.

Since you offered some bahai links, here is one that offers an alternative perspective.

I came into this discussion by chance and I thank Allah for that. Here are a few points to ponder:

1. While much has been said about the Bahai Faith, Muslims must recognise, as all Bahais must that there is absolutely no prophecy regarding Bahaullah in Islam.

2. Bahais intepret the Quran in their own ways to suit their purpose. Given that not many Muslims are familiar with Quran (unfortunately), this can be misleading. Therefore, never taken any verse quoted by the Bahais in isolation. Always seek the reference and refer to the Holy Quran and the traditions of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) for the correct interpretation of the verse.

3. Bahais reject physical resurrection and also finality of prophethood and messengership of the Holy Prophet of Islam (pbuh). By this criteria, they are considered to be apostates.

4. Bahais pay lip service to respect for the Holy Prophet (pbuh). Firstly, they say that his religion Islam is the same as Hinduism, Buddhism which is totally incorrect. Secondly, by rejecting the concept of physical resurrection, they reject all the traditions of the prophet in this regard.

These are just a few points. One can refer to my web site www.bahaiawareness.com to know more about how the Bahais actually percieve Islam.

Regards
Imran Shaykh
www.bahaiawareness.com

[imranshaykh]

:sl:

Whats a 'Baha'i' and whats their belifs?

Salaams:

You can refer to www.bahaiawareness.com for more information.

Regards
Imran Shaykh

[RonPrice]

I have not been at this site for about seven months. I notice on a quick reread of the thread that some of ther questrions are answered to people's satisfaction and some are not. I thought I would open another thread and clal it "Baha'i Apologetics2." There are obviously many people who would like to continue the discussion and I thank those who have participated in this thread. As one participant said, we must agree to disagree on some fronts, on some issues. How true that is!

I'll post a final paragraph on my approach to Baha'i apologetics and see any interested folk in the next thread.--Ron Price, Tasmania.:shade:
_______________________
Apologetics is a branch of systematic theology, although some experience it’s thrust in religious studies or philosophy of religion courses. Some encounter it on the internet for the first time in a more populist and usually much less academic form. As I see it, apologetics is primarily concerned with the protection of a religious position, the refutation of that position's assailants and, in the larger sense, the exploration of that position in the context of prevailing philosophies and standards in a secular society. Apologetics, to put it slightly differently, is concerned with answering critical inquiries, criticism of a position, in a rational manner. Apologetics is not possible, it seems to me anyway, without a commitment to and a desire to defend a position. For me, the core of my position I could express in one phrase: the Baha'i Revelation. With that said, though, the activity I engage in, namely, apologetics, is a never ending exercise.

The apologetics that concerns me is not so much Christian, Islamic or any one of a variety of what might be called secular apologetics, but rather Baha'i apologetics. There are many points of comparison and contrast, though, which I won't go into here. Christians, Muslims or secular humanists will have the opportunity to defend their positions by the use of apologetics; secular humanism is a simple label for the millions of westerners who have no traditional religion to speak of; they can argue their cases if they so desire here. And I will in turn defend the Baha'i Faith by the use of apologetics. In the process we will all, hopefully, learn something about our respective Faiths, our religions, which we hold to our hearts dearly.

At the outset, then, in this my last posting in this thread, my intention is simply to make this start, to state what you might call "my apologetics position." This brief statement indicates, in broad outline, where I am coming from in the weeks and months ahead. -Ron Price with thanks to Udo Schaefer, "Baha'i Apologetics?" Baha'i Studies Review, Vol. 10, 2001/2002.
____________________________
That's all folks!

[RonPrice]

In June 2006, the first thread that dealt with Baha'i apologetics came to an end. I became busy elsewhere in my life and other posters ceased to post on the thread. Having reread the thread a few minutes ago, I thought I would open this 2nd thread on "Baha'i Apologetics." Here is my first posting:
_________________________________
I want in this my first posting on this 2nd thread to finish, as best I can, outlining a basic orientation to Baha’i apologetics. Critical scholarly contributions or criticism raised in public or private discussions, an obvious part of apologetics, should not necessarily be equated with hostility. Often questions are perfectly legitimate aspects of a person's search for an answer to an intellectual conundrum. Paul Tillich, the great Protestant theologian, once expressed the view that apologetics was an "answering theology."(Systematic Theology, U. of Chicago, 1967, Vol.1, p6.)

I have always been attracted to the founder of the Baha'i Faith's exhortations in discussion to "speak with words as mild as milk," with "the utmost lenience and forbearance." I am also aware that, in cases of rude or hostile attack, rebuttal with a harsher tone may well be justified. It does not help an apologist to belong to those "watchmen" the prophet Isaiah calls "dumb dogs that cannot bark."(Isaiah, 56:10) Still, my personal preference is for mildness rather than overt and aggressive hostility in words or deeds. Of course, over a lifetime we all ere and stray in various ways.

In its essence apologetics is a kind of confrontation, an act of revealing one's true colours, of hoisting the flag, of demonstrating essential characteristics of faith. "Dialogue," as Hans Kung an eminent Catholic philosopher puts it, "does not mean self-denial."(quoted by Udo Schaefer, "Baha'i Apologetics," Baha'i Studies Review, Vol.10, 2001/2) Schaefer goes on: "A faith that is opportunistically streamlined, adapting to current trends, thus concealing its real features, features that could provoke rejection in order to be acceptable for dialogue is in danger of losing its identity."

It is almost impossible to carry the torch of truth through a crowd without getting someone's beard singed. In the weeks that follow, my postings will probably wind up singing the beards of some readers and, perhaps, my own in the process. Such are the perils of dialogue, of apologetics. Much of Baha'i apologetics derives from the experience Baha'is have of a fundamental discrepancy between secular thought and the Baha'i revelation on the other. In some ways, the gulf is unbridgeable but, so too, is this the case between the secular and much thought in the Christian, Islamic and Jewish revelations or, for that matter, between variants of Christianity, Islam or the Jewish faith themselves. Secular thought is also a house with many divisions. That is why, or at least one of the reasons, I have chosen to make postings at this site. In addition, this site invites debate.

Anyway, that's all for now. It's back to the summer winds of Tasmania, about 3 kms from the Bass Straight on the Tamar River. The geography of place is so much simpler than that of the spiritual geography readers at this site are concerned with, although even physical geography has its complexities. Whom the gods would destroy they first make simple and simpler and simpler. I look forward to a contiued dialogue in the months ahead. Here in far-off Tasmania--the last stop before Antarctica, if one wants to get there through some other route than off the end of South America--your email will be gratefully received. -Ron Price, Tasmania.
_____________________________
End of story---for now!

[RonPrice]

I thought a prose-poetic piece might be in order to introduce this 2nd thread. And so here is a prose-poem I wrote which some may enjoy. It begins with a brief discussion of the film, Matrix, which some readers may have seen.
___________________________________
MATRIX

The film The Matrix was released in Australia the very week I taught my last classes as a full-time professional teacher, April 8th 1999. I had been teaching for thirty years. I won't summarize the details of the plot and all the characters. But some of the theme is as follows: a fundamental discovery is made about the world that it doesn't exist. It's actually a form of Virtual Reality designed to lull people into lives of blind obedience to the system. People obediently go to their jobs every day without knowing that Matrix is the wool that has been pulled over their eyes. The reality of life is that people are slaves. The rebels want to crack the framework that holds this Matrix in place thus freeing humankind. Some believe a messianic One will lead a social uprising; this messianic One will possess both mind power and physical strength. -Ron Price, Pioneering Over Four Epochs, 4 November 2006 with thanks to Roger Ebert, Chicago Sun-Times, March 31st 1999.

The world has been in a great sleep
from which it is slowly waking
thanks to that messianic One
and the uprising has begun
silently, unobtrusively, for
the revolution is global and
out of man's control--it is also
spiritual--having begun within
the Shaykhi school of the Ithna-
Ashariyyih sect of Shiah Islam.
But don't tell anyone--it's the
best kept secret-non-secret in
the world and it is slowly rising
from the obscurity in which it
has been shrouded for 160 years.

Ron Price
4 November 2006
____________________
Enough for now!

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Wow you write well but I'm confused as to what your trying to say :X
well welcome to forum anyway :)

[sudais1]

^^^ same :lol: