PDA

View Full Version : Dispatches: The Muslim Reformation



minaz
05-01-2006, 06:58 PM
Ok I know this may be late notice! But on channel 4 in few mins 20:05 this is on:

Dispatches: The Muslim Reformation
Islamic teacher and reformer Tariq Ramadan explores the future of his faith, and presents evidence supporting his theory that European Muslims hold the key to the religion's prospects over the next 100 years. He also considers the ancient custom of applying the Koran's doctrine to life in the 21st century

I’m going to watch it, I would like member to air their views on this afterwards if they may inshallah.

P.S Salaatul Maghrib will be at 20:35 so you better all get your VCR’s ready too :D
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
Hijaabi22
05-01-2006, 07:01 PM
wow wee bumble be i wanna watch tariq ramadhan too thanks 4 dat
Reply

minaz
05-01-2006, 09:59 PM
So anyone watch it?
Reply

chacha_jalebi
05-01-2006, 10:00 PM
yaa i watched half lol
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
bint_muhammed
05-01-2006, 10:15 PM
i watched it, (by da way im new) and i think dat we need british born muslim scholars because it will help pple like us born in england to approach them about topics and ask them about advice. like in our local mosque its been bout 9 years since i last went to it, and der is kno 1 i cud approach and ask info about. all the leaders i kno are prob disussing my problem anyway knowing my bruves and all dat!
Reply

bint_muhammed
05-01-2006, 10:17 PM
soz wrote the last message a bit wrong, i meant if i did approach the scholars the wud be disscusin me problems if dey kno who sis or daughter u are!
Reply

chacha_jalebi
05-01-2006, 10:19 PM
sum of d stuff he sed i didnt agree wit, lik he woz sayin we hav 2 find more meanins 4 d quran! i admit ders diff interpretations n we gota b more open minded, lik hadhrat Umar (ra) read surah al fatiha 30 times n each time he got a diff meanin :) , so we gota b more open minded n take all interpretation in2 account, but if we cnt find a diff interpretation or der isnt 1, den wot we doo lol, n d man woz lik bla bla u hav 2 find 1 lol, :?!! im sure he sed sumfin lik dat, if he didnt den i musta been watchin sum nex program lol :p
Reply

snakelegs
05-02-2006, 02:37 AM
Originally Posted by minaz
Ok I know this may be late notice! But on channel 4 in few mins 20:05 this is on:

Dispatches: The Muslim Reformation
Islamic teacher and reformer Tariq Ramadan explores the future of his faith, and presents evidence supporting his theory that European Muslims hold the key to the religion's prospects over the next 100 years. He also considers the ancient custom of applying the Koran's doctrine to life in the 21st century

I’m going to watch it, I would like member to air their views on this afterwards if they may inshallah.

P.S Salaatul Maghrib will be at 20:35 so you better all get your VCR’s ready too :D
minaz,
i don't have TV and i'm not in UK, but i have read some articles by tariq ramadan. i'd really appreciate it if you wrote a review.
thanks.
Reply

syilla
05-02-2006, 02:45 AM
yeah... pls write a review... (hopefully a complete one)

i'm in malaysia.... no channel 4 here...

only 1,2,3,7,8 and 9...

hehehe
Reply

north_malaysian
05-02-2006, 03:45 AM
Originally Posted by syilla
yeah... pls write a review... (hopefully a complete one)

i'm in malaysia.... no channel 4 here...

only 1,2,3,7,8 and 9...

hehehe
We have 15 too on astro.:giggling:
Reply

syilla
05-02-2006, 03:47 AM
sorry no astro...

i've no time for one ah...

but i really want to subscribe Mitv...
Reply

north_malaysian
05-02-2006, 03:50 AM
Originally Posted by syilla
sorry no astro...

i've no time for one ah...

but i really want to subscribe Mitv...
MiTv channels are not as variety as ASTRO, but MITV is cheap and at least have one Islamic channel. But cannot get it yet in Penang.
Reply

mujahedeen2087
05-02-2006, 05:08 AM
these are modern times we don't need the quran anymore


yeah right quran is for every time
Reply

bint_muhammed
05-02-2006, 05:26 PM
bout da dispatches, i wasnt wid him wid everything for example wen he said about interpreting the Koran for this society- i think dats a bit rong coz if every1 interprets their own way den their beliefs etc. changes aswell e.g. like gay pple they believe that you can be gay it accepted and dats coz dey r interpreting da Koran differently, whilst others argue against dem. pple will strat interpreting it differently jus to fit their lifestyle if ya kno wat i mean!
Reply

Hijaabi22
05-02-2006, 05:57 PM
:uhwhat
Originally Posted by minaz
So anyone watch it?
ABOUT 2 SECS AT THE BEGINNIN :uhwhat :uhwhat
Reply

Kittygyal
05-02-2006, 06:21 PM
salam,

erm am lost i dn't know what this is about if you have a link then i will be able to watch it ONLY if it's in english :)

w.salam
Reply

minaz
05-03-2006, 10:17 AM
Here is a review od the programme :)
Link http://www.channel4.com/culture/micr...formation.html

Dispatches: The Muslim Reformation
Academic and Islamic reformer Tariq Ramadan argues that Islam's future can only be secured by rereading its teachings in the context of the modern world, and that this process is already underway in Europe. Julia Bard reports

The violent protests against a Danish newspaper's publication of cartoons depicting the prophet Muhammed, reflect a global climate of resentment and mistrust between Muslims and non-Muslims. In the Channel 4 Dispatches programme,The Muslim Reformation, Tariq Ramadan argues that, despite the attacks on Madrid and London, European Muslims will ultimately determine how the religion survives in the next century.

He challenges fundamentalists and radicals who, he says, are misusing such grievances to justify killing, and contends that sticking rigidly to literal and unchanging interpretations of Islamic texts is not the way to secure the future of the faith.

A historical view
Ramadan explains that in medieval times it made sense for the relatively small community of Muslims to see the world as divided into the House of Islam defending itself against the rest of the world – the House of War. Today, though, for the first time in their history, many Muslims are living as a minority in Europe, where they are free to practise their religion. This new situation requires new, relevant answers.

He speaks to traditionalist and radical fundamentalist Muslims who disagree. They argue that the outside world is as hostile as it ever was and that the teachings of the Qur'an are literally true and immutable. In response, Ramadan invokes the ancient Islamic concept of Ijtehad – a re-examination of Qur'anic texts and Muslim teachings in a new context. This is what is needed, he says, and, indeed, it is being revived in Europe where the very term 'Muslim' is part of a complex and shifting identity.

Travelling across Europe, Ramadan talks to young Muslims who are working out how to live according to Islamic principles in a changed and changing world. They are analysing texts and teachings, and discussing issues that are provoking intense debate within the Islamic world: identity, education, the position of women, violent protest and more.

The European experience
In France, he meets a group of young Muslims who are examining one of the most controversial chapters in the Qur'an, which radical Muslim groups use to justify their violent attacks. The group concludes that these verses are being read in isolation from the many other Qur'anic texts and teachings, distorting the Islamic principle which forbids terrorism and the killing of civilians.

In Germany, Ramadan talks to a group of women who are rereading Muslim texts that have been used to discriminate against women. They argue that the exclusion of women from many mosques is both relatively recent and contradicts the principles of Islam. Rejecting what they describe as second-hand interpretations handed down by a male-dominated establishment, they are demanding the right to pray alongside men, as women did during the time of the prophet Muhammed.

In Britain, Ramadan visits a Muslim supplementary school where children are encouraged to read, question and discuss the religious teachings. This is very different from the traditional Madrassas or religious schools, where pupils are taught by rote, whether or not they understand what they are learning. The parents say they value this school because it is inclusive, open and diverse. Here their children learn to be confident about being Muslims and can also hold their own in the outside world.

The future of Islam
Finally, Ramadan travels to Pakistan – the place of origin of many British Muslim families – to see what impact these debates are having on a country where Muslims are in the majority. Here, he finds little desire for change or reinterpretation of Muslim thinking. This reinforces his conviction that the reformation he believes is necessary to the future of Islam can only take place is in Europe and will be led by European Muslims.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-03-2006, 10:22 AM
So Minaz what did you think? Because i thought it was absolute rubbish. Sorry, i had to be blunt. I mean, for a scholar, the dude is really misinformed. It was quite disappointing. But then again, it's a channel 4 documentary!
:w:
Reply

minaz
05-03-2006, 10:46 AM
I thought it was quite informative. The concept of "Ijtehad" is something I personally am planning to look into further analysis- inshallah. The programme indeed did show a spectrum of a variety of different Muslim views. He interviewed scholars with conservative views and those with more realistic ones. I think he tackled the question of Jihad well, arguing that many misinterpret it as a struggle for war rather than a struggle for peace. The world has seen a huge change over the last 100 years compared to the last 1400. It has changed at such a pace technologically and socially, we find ourselves in a unique period of time in humanity. Tariq didn't say change the Islamic meanings, but to adapt them in our new world.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-03-2006, 10:51 AM
Scholars should only make their own judgement when nothing can be found in the Qur'an and Sunnah. Even then, imam Abu Hanifah, one of the greatest scholars of all time, would look to what the companions thought... only then would he come to his own judgement. Jihad is a struggle for Allah actually. It can take on many forms, but the greatest is qitaal (fighting in the way of Allah). The hadith that says otherwise has been clasified as da'eef by sheikh ul islam ibn taymiyyah. Remember, society will always change, but Islam is constant. I don't know what you mean by adapt, so i can't really go into that further. Please explain.
:w:
Reply

mizan_aliashraf
05-03-2006, 10:57 AM
Salam
In my opinion, that was the worst rubbish i've ever seen in my whole life. I knew from the start it would be a dodgy one-sided show with one-sided and biased views and opinions, but i didn't expect to see what was shown.

I dont approve of Tariq Ramadan myself because he does not have the appropriate background to start giving out verdicts about martyrdom operations and activities of the mujahideen around the world.

But then it was expected, channel 4 would never allow a speaker come on its show if he would speak the truth about islam. for instance, we would never see the likes of Sheikh Abdullah Azzam (Rahimullah) on Dispatches, or would we?

My advice would be to those who watched it, don't take any of the views and opinions presented as final. There are other opinons there that were not discussed. We should all aim to seek knowledge, then it will be harder for such 'scholars for dollars' to try and misguide us.

May Allah protect the ummah
Wassalam
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-03-2006, 11:00 AM
Masha-Allah, well said akhee!
:w:
Reply

aakhirah
05-03-2006, 11:08 AM
:sl:

Having read the review, somehow I agree to brother Mizan's post. I completely disagree with apologetic Muslims!

:w:

A.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-03-2006, 11:12 AM
Exactly, read my sig... that ayah is pure and simple. We do not need to adapt or apologise for our beautiful deen. If we trust in Allah, He will be enough for us.
:w:
Reply

mizan_aliashraf
05-03-2006, 11:14 AM
Salam
Allah will always be enough for us.
Just remember the story of prophet Yusuf (AS)
Wassalam
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-03-2006, 11:17 AM
True, but we will only gain His support if we are true believers. Look at badr. But if we disobey Allah and His messenger, we will fail, look at uhud.
:w:
Reply

mizan_aliashraf
05-03-2006, 11:21 AM
Salam
Ukht, if everyone thought like you, we wouldn't be in this mess. Its because of the current situation of the ummah that Allah has placed tyrant rulers above us (Saudi) and the like. But we have to continue to try hard and get our khilafah system back, for it is the only way forward.

We also have to stop trying to please the kuffar by compromising our deen for their sake. They will never be happy with us until we leave islam. We already know this, so why do muslims bend over backwards to accommodate the demands of the kuffar? Its a sign of weak eemaan.

May Allah reform the young of this ummah, as they are the only hope.
May Allah send destruction to the kuffar
May Allah guide us all.
Wassalam
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-03-2006, 11:29 AM
edit
Reply

Rabi'ya
05-03-2006, 11:30 AM
:sl:

seems i had the same opinion as sis Mu'minah and bro mizan ali ashraf...

I dont particularly like Tariq Ramadan, his opinions(and that all they are) are complete nonsense.

I did watch most of the programme, but i notice that when he interviewd a group of Muslim youths - none of them seemed particularly religious(Allah knows best). Why couldnt they chose some practising Muslim bros and siss to talk on that programme. Some of the imams made good points but the majority of the programme was complete rubbish

:w:

Rabi'ya:rose:
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-03-2006, 11:32 AM
I watched a lil bit, but my bro kept changing the channel so I just allowed it. It's sad when men of knowledge speak like that:(.
:w:
Reply

mizan_aliashraf
05-03-2006, 11:33 AM
Salam
Finally, a moderator agrees, mashallah. We should be careful about watching such shows, especially when they are broadcast in the name of islam. It has already been predicted that there will be callers to the gates of hell. (not saying he's one of them) so please be careful
Wassalam
Reply

Rabi'ya
05-03-2006, 11:35 AM
:sl:

I agree but its not only Muslims who watched that programme....

i feel its giving a bad impression to the rest of society too.

:w:

Rabi'ya:rose:
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-03-2006, 11:38 AM
Yes masha-Allah, sis Rabi'ya is well-informed;), I know, it's because of programmes like that thaty i have pretty much given up watching tv!:heated:
:w:
Reply

minaz
05-03-2006, 09:23 PM
Hmmmmmmm seems like Tariq Ramadan isn't on most of your Eid card list:p
Then again some may believe that sending Eid cards is an innovation of the kuffar.
Reply

Noora_z3
05-03-2006, 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by Rabi'ya
:sl:

seems i had the same opinion as sis Mu'minah and bro mizan ali ashraf...

I dont particularly like Tariq Ramadan, his opinions(and that all they are) are complete nonsense.

Rabi'ya:rose:
Salam sis Rabya

Dont u think thats a bit rude? I mean the guy is really studying Islam, he is not some one who is tryin to destroy islam.

All four schools of thoughts used IJTIHAD as a source for islamic Judgments.
Now maybe the guy said something wrong here n there, but still its not fair to say wat he is saying is nonsens...i just find it too strong.

I am not a big fan of Tariq Ramadn either, I dont agree with some of his statments. But still we have to admit he is serving Islam better than lot others. N let us not forget he is a Mujtahid who will be rewarded by Allah SWT, even if he was wrong in his Ijtihad (as stated by prophet Muhammad PBUH).
Reply

bint_muhammed
05-03-2006, 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by Rabi'ya
:sl:

seems i had the same opinion as sis Mu'minah and bro mizan ali ashraf...

I dont particularly like Tariq Ramadan, his opinions(and that all they are) are complete nonsense.

I did watch most of the programme, but i notice that when he interviewd a group of Muslim youths - none of them seemed particularly religious(Allah knows best). Why couldnt they chose some practising Muslim bros and siss to talk on that programme. Some of the imams made good points but the majority of the programme was complete rubbish

:w:

Rabi'ya:rose:
i agree with what you saying because, all the muslim youth interviewed not one acted like a proper muslim (i mean dress wise). he also interviewed shaid malik who i find sucks up to the khufars (excuse my language). what annoys me da most is that if ya dreseed islamically even some muslims kinda, you know lokks down on you and you think its people like us who have the courage to dress in modest clothing even in thid day and age:heated:
Reply

minaz
05-03-2006, 10:04 PM
Never judge a book by its cover
Reply

bint_muhammed
05-03-2006, 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by minaz
Never judge a book by its cover
however first impressions plays an important part! a friend of mine works in this plays where the non-muslims hadn't met a muslim face-to face (untill me friend) and they were really curious saying if dressing modestly is so important to islam then why do most muslims not dress that way, my friend was like i couldnt ansa the questions couse i felt embarresed. she wanted to say that many people call them selves christians however they hardly go to church, but then she thought just becouse they do that it doesnt make it right!
Reply

azim
05-03-2006, 10:56 PM
As salamu alaykum.

I have to say, I think I disagree with almost everyone here.:p

I dont approve of Tariq Ramadan myself because he does not have the appropriate background to start giving out verdicts about martyrdom operations and activities of the mujahideen around the world.
He has studied Islam extensively, although you may not agree with him - he is still a scholar and so you should respect him.

But then it was expected, channel 4 would never allow a speaker come on its show if he would speak the truth about islam. for instance, we would never see the likes of Sheikh Abdullah Azzam (Rahimullah) on Dispatches, or would we?
This is one of the reasons I quite like Tariq Ramadan. Although his views are not mainstream with most scholars, he is someone who is trying to bring the great and amazing history and knowledge of Islam to the non-Muslims. I went to a talk recently by him and he mentioned that many great Sheikhs write books on Islam, but these are always in Islamic bookshops published by Islamic publishers. Non-Muslims have no real access to this material. Scholars such as Haneef Oliver (author of Sacred Freedom) are bringing the intellectual nature of Islam to Western audiences. This is in no way a bad thing.

I dont particularly like Tariq Ramadan, his opinions(and that all they are) are complete nonsense.
I don't agree sis. His opinions regarding huduud have a strong Islamic base and though controversial, they are sound from an Islamic perspective. The majority of scholars agree that huduud is only implementable in a Khilafah and even then, it is the final system to be implemented as part of the Khilafah. So shouldn't the scholars openly talk out against the unfair and unIslamic application of huduud? In fact Tariq Ramadan is banned from Saudi for talking out against the Petromonarchy there - not many scholars are willing to do that.

Again, agree or not with his views, he is respectable scholar and I feel he should be given credit.

I did watch most of the programme, but i notice that when he interviewd a group of Muslim youths - none of them seemed particularly religious(Allah knows best). Why couldnt they chose some practising Muslim bros and siss to talk on that programme. Some of the imams made good points but the majority of the programme was complete rubbish
Like Bro Minaz said - we shouldn't judge a book by it's cover. Also, I feel he was trying to get a broad sprectrum of views from the Islamic youth.

All four schools of thoughts used IJTIHAD as a source for islamic Judgments.
Now maybe the guy said something wrong here n there, but still its not fair to say wat he is saying is nonsens...i just find it too strong.

I am not a big fan of Tariq Ramadn either, I dont agree with some of his statments. But still we have to admit he is serving Islam better than lot others. N let us not forget he is a Mujtahid who will be rewarded by Allah SWT, even if he was wrong in his Ijtihad (as stated by prophet Muhammad PBUH).
Well said sis. The important thing here I believe is that despite differing views we have to realise that unless their view is Islamically corrupt, then we can not really condemn them for it. Unity is the only thing Islam is lacking, and unity of Muslims is the only Dua Allah did not accept from Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
i agree with what you saying because, all the muslim youth interviewed not one acted like a proper muslim (i mean dress wise)
I really find this quite disturbing. Are we really that shallow that we make judgements based upon dress. Ok, so maybe a sister wasn't wearing hijab... as her Muslim brother or sister, shouldn't we give her the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps her parents are severely against it, perhaps she doesn't wear it properly because she is bullied about it, perhaps she spends every night crying to Allah asking for forgiveness from Allah for not wearing it. We're not the judge here, we should not act like it.

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Beware of suspicion, for suspicion is the worst of false tales; and do not look for the others' faults and do not spy, and do not be jealous of one another, and do not desert (cut your relation with) one another, and do not hate one another; and O Allah's worshipers! Be brothers (as Allah has ordered you!") (Book #73, Hadith #90)

he also interviewed shaid malik who i find sucks up to the khufars (excuse my language).
I don't really know much about this brother but seriously, he bows his head to Allah - doesn't that make him our close brother!

I've been to a few talks by Tariq Ramadan and what he said in the talks I found to be very informed and very intelligent solutions to Muslims problems - some aspects of the show I did not agree with but I don't have to. He is working earnestly towards the Islamic revival and insha'Allah so are we - though we may differ on technicalities we should support the good we see each other do.

Salam.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-04-2006, 08:39 AM
Originally Posted by Noora_z3
Salam sis Rabya

Dont u think thats a bit rude? I mean the guy is really studying Islam, he is not some one who is tryin to destroy islam.

All four schools of thoughts used IJTIHAD as a source for islamic Judgments.
Now maybe the guy said something wrong here n there, but still its not fair to say wat he is saying is nonsens...i just find it too strong.

I am not a big fan of Tariq Ramadn either, I dont agree with some of his statments. But still we have to admit he is serving Islam better than lot others. N let us not forget he is a Mujtahid who will be rewarded by Allah SWT, even if he was wrong in his Ijtihad (as stated by prophet Muhammad PBUH).
Unless perhaps he is doing it on purpose. Read my second post on this thread. Allah knows best, but we have to state it when a sheikh/scholar says something that is blatantly misleading, and broadcasting it on to the world through the kuffar. Strange.
:w:
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-04-2006, 08:42 AM
Originally Posted by minaz
Hmmmmmmm seems like Tariq Ramadan isn't on most of your Eid card list:p
Then again some may believe that sending Eid cards is an innovation of the kuffar.
We don't hate him akhee:p.... we just don't like his works. May Allah guide us all and lead us to the haqq.
And by the way, you really don't want to spin this thread into an innovation discussion (trust me, I'VE BEEN THERE!).
:w:
Reply

Noora_z3
05-04-2006, 09:12 AM
Originally Posted by azim
As salamu alaykum.

I have to say, I think I disagree with almost everyone here.:p

Salam.
Jazaa Allah, well said bro, I couldnt say it any better.
I did attend 2 of his talks wen he visited my Uni in Malaysia, He is a very intelligent man. I didnt agree with all that he said, some of his statments r controversial, but he got his evidences from the Quran n the Sunnah. Now its up to us to accept it ot refuse it.

agree with what you saying because, all the muslim youth interviewed not one acted like a proper muslim (i mean dress wise)
his Ijtihad or refuse it.
Oh this disturbed me too, we really..really need to stop judgin our Muslim brothers n sisters by look. Unity is wat we seek.
Reply

Rabi'ya
05-04-2006, 10:19 AM
:sl:

If tariq Ramadan wants to continue his work then who am i to say no :) i purely wish to say that i dont like his opinions...just because he has studied Quraan and Sunnah does not mean his opinions are correct. As you may know, you can read an ayah 10 times nd get a different meaning each time. Whos to say that the meaning Tariq Ramadan gets is the right one. perhaps it is one of the right ones - but he does not say that. he purely states his opinion. I accept he has studied alot and all respect to him for doing so.

i simply do not like his ways, thoughts and some of his actions.

anyhoo...not for me to judge....

:w:

Rabi'ya:rose:
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-05-2006, 08:32 AM
Exactly sis, that documentary was just messed up. He completely got the wrong meaning of ijtihad. You only use it in a last case basis, when you cannot bring any evidence from the Qur'an and sunnah. Not for something like the punishment for a thief. I think any tom **** & harry can realise that. This will only misguide those who Allah wants it to misguide. Many time fitna has come up and it is only to seperate those who truly believe!
:w:
Reply

mizan_aliashraf
05-05-2006, 08:44 AM
Salam
The fitnah will just keep on coming. We ask Allah to strengthen our Eemaan and Yaqeen. And by the way, there is nothing wrong with the phrase Tom, **** and Harry. So i dont know why you put asterisks there.
Wassalam
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-05-2006, 08:47 AM
I didn't lol... it came up by itsself:?.
Ands true akhee, very true!
:w:
Reply

azim
05-05-2006, 03:05 PM
He completely got the wrong meaning of ijtihad. You only use it in a last case basis, when you cannot bring any evidence from the Qur'an and sunnah. Not for something like the punishment for a thief.
Salamu alaykum.

Perhaps I missed it - but when was the punishment of the theif mentioned in the show.
Reply

minaz
05-06-2006, 08:35 PM
When he visited an Islamic school and posed the question to the headmaster.
Reply

Starseeker
05-06-2006, 08:39 PM
I just watched it on more4 at 8 o;clock today. (or was it E4 can't remember!)
Reply

minaz
05-06-2006, 08:58 PM
What did you think of it?
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-08-2006, 08:15 AM
I think what Rabz and mizan are trying to say is that you can't do ijtihad for the sake of ijtihad, it's only for a last case basis as was mentioned before many times. And what the hell is 'new eyes' supposed to mean? We don't need to look at the Qur'an through any new eyes, there's nothing wrong with it! I can't stand these modernists. Yeah, we can keep looking at the Qur'an through new eyes until it no longer resembles what it was in the first place, like the christians. When are we going to understand that Islam is perfect?
:w:
Reply

mizan_aliashraf
05-08-2006, 08:58 AM
Salam
I'd just like to clarify my position.
That documentary was a complete waste of airtime, it will mislead muslims as well as non-muslims, and it is sending out the wrong message. But then that i what you would expect from the British media
Wassalam
Reply

azim
05-08-2006, 11:43 AM
Asalamu alaykum.

And what the hell is 'new eyes' supposed to mean?
If you're not sure what Tariq Ramadan means by 'new eyes' then why not try to find out, either by contacting him or looking on his website, rather then assuming the negative.

There were some aspects of the show that were quite vague as to what he meant - 'new eyes' being one of them. From his talks, his message is that we need to reexamine Islam to distinguish what is Islam and what is culture. He talked about going back to our religion, and realising that this is 'Pakistani', this is 'Saudi', this is 'Egyptian' and then picking out what is 'Islam' and holding on to it.

I fear that people are being overly defensive and quite unfair to Tariq Ramadan, judging and then condeming him without really trying to find out what he's talking about.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-08-2006, 03:08 PM
It was clear what he was talking about. Why question a punishment laid down by Allah? It's worked fine for the last 1400 + years. Let's not get all modernist. 'Re-examine', pshh.
Reply

bint_muhammed
05-08-2006, 04:01 PM
I fear that people are being overly defensive and quite unfair to Tariq Ramadan, judging and then condeming him without really trying to find out what he's talking about.[/QUOTE]


what ya mean we r being over defensive, he wants islam to fit the western world, but excusive me for being a bit old fashioned i dont agree we should change or interpret the quran any differently to how the suhabis did. i think people are trying to find excuses for their weaknesses of the westernworld :rant: :rant: :rant:
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-08-2006, 04:03 PM
Exactly. We adapt to Islam, not the other way!
:w:
Reply

azim
05-08-2006, 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
It was clear what he was talking about. Why question a punishment laid down by Allah? It's worked fine for the last 1400 + years. Let's not get all modernist. 'Re-examine', pshh.
Tariq Ramadan's view on huduud is, as I said, from an Islamic viewpoint, very strong.

The scholars describe hudud as being the final aspect of the khilafah to be applied. There isn't even a khilafah that exists so how, Islamically, can you justify huduud? Also, I expect your living in the UK sis, do you know how corrupt monarchies and despotic dictators are using hudud? They use it to punish those in the society who have no voice. In SA, a poor immigrant worker will be punished without a second thought but the rich royal family are untouchable. You call that Islamic sister? If that is your view on Islam then I want nothing to do with it. Islam teaches justice on all scales, on all levels. The hudud is currently being misued and applied in a way that is completely AGAINST Islam. Tariq Ramadan does not call for the abolishment of hudud, rather he is saying that it should temporarily stopped while the 'scholars' of Islam examine the conditions under which hudud can be applied and then these conditions should be followed. There are very few scholars who are brave enough to put forward such an idea - not because it isn't Islamic, but because Muslims would condemn them without even attempting to understand their argument.

Read it here: -
http://www.tariqramadan.com/call.php...le=264&lang=en
Reply

Noora_z3
05-08-2006, 11:31 PM
Originally Posted by azim
Tariq Ramadan's view on huduud is, as I said, from an Islamic viewpoint, very strong.

The scholars describe hudud as being the final aspect of the khilafah to be applied. There isn't even a khilafah that exists so how, Islamically, can you justify huduud? . Tariq Ramadan does not call for the abolishment of hudud, rather he is saying that it should temporarily stopped while the 'scholars' of Islam examine the conditions under which hudud can be applied and then these conditions should be followed.
IN another words, Wat tariq Ramdhan is tryin to say that Muslims socites nowadays r so much far from true Islam that they r not ready for the application of Hudud at this point. The muslim state should first bring about Muslim socity that follows Islam in its everyday life before imposing the Hudud laws on them. Lets take the Islamic Economic system for example, does any singel country apply that?! In fact, is there a comprehenisve understnanding of wat an Islamic Economic system should constitute of in todays world?! unfortunaly, no.Now which is more important?!Tariq Ramdhan n other scholrs belive that Islamic Economic system is much more importnt that the Hudud system.

In addtiont to that, we shouldnt forget that Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him first made sure that his peaple were speritualy matuer enough before orderign them to follow the Hudud, it was the last Islamic system to be applied on the Muslim community at that time.
Reply

snakelegs
05-09-2006, 02:29 AM
Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
Jihad is a struggle for Allah actually. It can take on many forms, but the greatest is qitaal (fighting in the way of Allah).
qitaal actually means killing, doesn't it?
is this true? i've always read that the greatest jihad is the internal jihad.
Reply

azim
05-09-2006, 10:28 AM
qitaal actually means killing, doesn't it?
I believe at times, depending on usage, it can mean 'mortal combat' rather than killing. *cue theme tune*

is this true? i've always read that the greatest jihad is the internal jihad.
There is a hadith where the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) describes 'jihad-al-nafs' as the greatest Jihad. This is considered daif (weak narration).
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-09-2006, 11:15 AM
Yes that hadith is da'eef, as was classified by sheikh ibn taymiyyah (may Allah have mercy on his soul).
Yes, there is usually a bit of killing involved in battle.
Anyway, Allah knows his intentions. However, i still firmly hold that ijtihad should only be used when there is no evidence from the Qur'an or sunnah to solve that situation.
:w:
Reply

IceQueen~
05-09-2006, 11:20 AM
Originally Posted by azim

There is a hadith where the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) describes 'jihad-al-nafs' as the greatest Jihad. This is considered daif (weak narration).
i heard it was weak too but that it's concept is supported by quran/sunnah...?
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-09-2006, 11:33 AM
No sis it isn't, because a mujahid also faces jihad of the nafs. The soul doesn't desire to feel pain... to leave their loved ones... it would much rather stay home and not fight.
:w:
Reply

IceQueen~
05-09-2006, 11:35 AM
Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
No sis it isn't, because a mujahid also faces jihad of the nafs. The soul doesn't desire to feel pain... to leave their loved ones... it would much rather stay home and not fight.
:w:
you're right masha allah!:)
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-09-2006, 11:36 AM
Insha-Allah, Allah knows best.:)
:w:
Reply

snakelegs
05-12-2006, 04:40 AM
Originally Posted by azim
I believe at times, depending on usage, it can mean 'mortal combat' rather than killing. *cue theme tune*



There is a hadith where the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) describes 'jihad-al-nafs' as the greatest Jihad. This is considered daif (weak narration).
who decides which hadiths are weak?
Reply

Noora_z3
05-12-2006, 12:12 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
who decides which hadiths are weak?
scholars of Science of Hadith.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-12-2006, 01:13 PM
they don't just 'decide'. It's quite complicated. Well the thing is, unlike the Qur'an, Allah has not promised to protect the Hadith. So they can be fabricated. So to know which ones are authentic, there is a strict process for classification.
-Peace
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 06-28-2011, 08:24 PM
  2. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-17-2011, 04:41 PM
  3. Replies: 30
    Last Post: 07-09-2008, 07:59 PM

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!