Would you test someone if you already knew the results?

[j4763]

One thing that confuses me about Allah/God is the whole “life’s a test” thing.
If something bad happens (war/natural disasters…etc) many Muslims say that is a test from God. What’s the point if he already knows our future, from the moment where born God must know whether were going to become a Muslim or not. So why not skip the whole “life test” and place us in heaven or hell, once were conceived?

Why does Allah test us if he already knows whether we pass or fail?

[*noor]

Allah knows whether you will pass or not because he always knows what will happen. However, you do have control over your actions.

[j4763]

Allah knows whether you will pass or not because he always knows what will happen. However, you do have control over your actions.

Well if he knows why the test? And who does have control over our actions?

[Kittygyal]

Well if he knows why the test? And who does have control over our actions?

salam.
this time now bro it is an test for us all if we die and face towards our lord we turn to him to strength our imam you worship him so he can guide you to the right path and help you so all this time it is a test for us cause the angels write it down the bad one and the good one they write down everything you doand then on the day of judgement you will be questioned. so this is an test on earth for us, bro you have control for your actions cause what you do is you who are doing it but god is helping you only if you believe in him and his messengers.
w.salam

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[Al-Mu'min]

peace.

It's unfair to throw someone in hell or heaven if they don't deserve it. On the day of judgement we will remember what we did here on earth and we will understand if what we did deserves punishment or reward.

If we were thrown in hell without experiencing anything that deserves this punishment, we will consider it unfair. But if we do know the reasons why we are being punished, we know we deserve them.

The same applies to heaven. The rewards will taste much better because we understand we worked for them.

[Musaafirah]

:sl:
i was reading somewhere about why we get punished, if you get what i mean, with regards to all the free will thing and all..but then the question was answered with a question..why do we get rewarded?...
:w:

[HeiGou]

It's unfair to throw someone in hell or heaven if they don't deserve it. On the day of judgement we will remember what we did here on earth and we will understand if what we did deserves punishment or reward.

If we were thrown in hell without experiencing anything that deserves this punishment, we will consider it unfair. But if we do know the reasons why we are being punished, we know we deserve them.

The same applies to heaven. The rewards will taste much better because we understand we worked for them.

How will we know we deserve our punishments or our rewards? Before the Earth was formed, God decided whether I, for instance, would go to Heaven or Hell. Well before I was born that decision had been made. So what can I do either way to change that? Suppose I have a choice before me: God knows what I will do. Can I change that, can I make a different decision other than the one that God has already decided that I will make?

[*noor]

:sl:
i was reading somewhere about why we get punished, if you get what i mean, with regards to all the free will thing and all..but then the question was answered with a question..why do we get rewarded?...
:w:

for believing in Allah and being patient and submitting to Allah

[glo]

One thing that confuses me about Allah/God is the whole “life’s a test” thing.
If something bad happens (war/natural disasters…etc) many Muslims say that is a test from God. What’s the point if he already knows our future, from the moment where born God must know whether were going to become a Muslim or not. So why not skip the whole “life test” and place us in heaven or hell, once were conceived?

Why does Allah test us if he already knows whether we pass or fail?

That's interesting.
My atheist husband says the same thing: "Why should I worry about choosing a religion - if God already knows whether I will be a believer or not?"
To be honest, I never have an answer to that. :rollseyes

Peace.

[Musaafirah]

for believing in Allah and being patient and submitting to Allah

hehe..i didn't mean that i didnt know the answer..i'm jus saying that the question answered the first question nicely..:)

[*noor]

salam
look at it this way....ill give an example we can all relate to.

i got to school and my teacher tells me "I will not give you the exam because I know that you will not do well on it, and therefore you will not pass this course and are doomed to take it again."

does that sound fair???

[*noor]

hehe..i didn't mean that i didnt know the answer..i'm jus saying that the question answered the first question nicely..:)

oh....sorry sis :X

[Musaafirah]

no worries..though i must say i loved the way you gave the example about exams..:D

[*noor]

no worries..though i must say i loved the way you gave the example about exams..:D

thanx sis! :)

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Why does Allah test us if he already knows whether we pass or fail?

For numerous reasons. First of all there is the issue of justice, and the fact that justice must be witnessed and appreciated. Secondly, there is the fact that our striving towards God allows us to better appreciate His attributes and come closer to Him, and we would not have had that opportunity if we were placed directly in paradise.

Something I wrote before on free-will and predestination:

Hi
Thanks for your post. Your argument started off with God's predestination and then you moved to the famous atheist argument known as the 'problem' of evil, and then you switched back to the argument against pre-destination.

Let's start with predestination. Yes, God knows everything that will happen. But you neglect the fact that God transcends time and space; He is above and beyond our universe. So He is not restricted by time into past, present and future as we are. He sees all events past, present and future.

Do you agree that our universe has a definite future? i.e. that there is a definite course that our universe is going to take, and that every individual in our universe has a definite future. Predestination or no predestination everyone will agree with the fact that there is a definite future. If person X can only do either A or B, there is a definite course he will take, we just don't know whether it is A or B. But we know that he cannot do both. He has one specific choice which he will choose.

So if we agree that there is a definite course which the universe will follow, whether people have free-will or not, then it makes no difference whether we also state that there is a divine entity beyond this universe who knows what that definite course is that we will take. If it did not contradict our free-will to say that there is a definite course, then neither does it contradict it to suggest that there is someone beyond time and space who knows what that definite course is.

If we took all the future happenings in person X's life and made them into a movie which person Y watched, that has no impact on person X's free-will. X still has the choice, but Y simply knows which ones he will choose.

Now we come to your version of the problem of evil when you ask, "Why did God create such a person knowing they would be evil?" This question is no different from the question of why God created evil. We have discussed this question in great detail in this thread, but briefly, if there was no opposition to peace, justice, and faith, then where would the test be in establishing peace, justice and faith in God?

Regards

And see also this by Dr. Jeffery Lang:
http://www.islamicboard.com/showpost...5&postcount=12

Regards

[nimrod]

J4763;

#1. If you had a certain child that you knew would lie when asked a certain question, would you allow that that question to be raised?

#2. Would you punish the child for being a liar?

Thanks
Nimrod

[PrIM3]

predestine... well my thoughts on it is that Yes God does know the future.. He knows all the choices you have and what each choice you are given what they will lead out to... for instance

you are out on a date-- and that date as aids you know he as aids and so does the other partner of course... now you have two choices here.. choose no to not have sex or yes to have sex...

God knows which decision will lead up to what... basically so it is not like your future is intirely made up.

[j4763]

J4763;

#1. If you had a certain child that you knew would lie when asked a certain question, would you allow that that question to be raised?

#2. Would you punish the child for being a liar?

Thanks
Nimrod

#1 No point in asking the question if you know the childs going to lie, so no i wouldn't ask.

#2 Yes.

[------]

What does ur signature imply j4763?

[j4763]

What does ur signature imply j4763?

Its my CIA badge number.

[------]

Hmmmmmmmmm............ :rollseyes

[IceQueen~]

How will we know we deserve our punishments or our rewards? Before the Earth was formed, God decided whether I, for instance, would go to Heaven or Hell. Well before I was born that decision had been made. So what can I do either way to change that? Suppose I have a choice before me: God knows what I will do. Can I change that, can I make a different decision other than the one that God has already decided that I will make?

it's the difference between the verb 'to decide' and 'to know'
you have free will for choosing whatever you choose but God knows what it is.

[...]

Allah knows what will happen to us in our lives,but He still gives us a chance to live our lives as He is the most Just. He has given us a free will to do as we please, and He has sent us the Quran as a guidance and mercy to mankind, so that we may ch0ose the path that will benefit us.

[Mohsin]

Its my CIA badge number.

She meant your signature, not avatar.

About too many muslims wearing the name but not following religion

[...]

She meant your signature, not avatar.

About too many muslims wearing the name but not following religion

That is true and i don't deny it. However it's no different from other religions.

[HeiGou]

it's the difference between the verb 'to decide' and 'to know'
you have free will for choosing whatever you choose but God knows what it is.

Except not a feather fall but it is God's doing. A Muslim once told me that a knife does not cut butter - God allows the knife to cut butter. There is, in this case, no difference between God's decision and God's knowing. He decided when He created the Universe. But even if my decision is known already, can I choose otherwise? Can I end up doing something other than what God already knows I am going to do?

[IceQueen~]

Can I end up doing something other than what God already knows I am going to do?

yup you can but God knows that too! LOL!!;D

[Al-Mu'min]

Peace.

God simply allows you to choose between right or wrong just as he simply knows what your choice will be.

But before any choice is made, God explains what is right from what is wrong. He also explains that you actions will either be rewarded or punished. It's your choice. You will either be rewarded or punished depending on the choice you have made.

Most importantly, in the end both you and God know what you did in this life. And everything is recorded.

Peace out.

[j4763]

She meant your signature, not avatar.

About too many muslims wearing the name but not following religion

Guess you just answerd it :)

[Mohsin]

Originally Posted by HeiGou
Can I end up doing something other than what God already knows I am going to do?

yup you can but God knows that too! LOL!!

Lol that answers it

Whatever you end up doing, God already knows that.
Say you are going to do X, so you think God thinks you will do X, so now you do Y. Now your question is can you do it since God thinks you're going to do X

Well the answer is that the thin king is flawed, as God would know from the beginning that you are going to do Y


Anyways, you can think of all the ins and outs, you will never know what you think God knows, so you might think "God thinks i am going to do X, so i will do Y" since you do not know what God is thinking. God knows all the ins and outs

Hope that explains insha'allah

:w:

[Kidman]

I don't know if anybody posted this example yet, but it's like this:

Say the teacher knows you, and knows that you will pass the class with an A+, is it right for that teacher to just give you an A+ or would it be fair for her to make you have to take the class and all the tests to get the A+???

Kavon

[Mohsin]

I don't know if anybody posted this example yet, but it's like this:

Say the teacher knows you, and knows that you will pass the class with an A+, is it right for that teacher to just give you an A+ or would it be fair for her to make you have to take the class and all the tests to get the A+???

Kavon

Jk Khairun for fitting example

[IbnAbdulHakim]

:peace:

Thats like saying: Why kick a ball if you know where its gonna go? You kno its gonna go where u aim it so why kick it?

Allah swt has given us freewill to USE, yes he can easily tell us what we will do but then why should we enter jannah? what have we done to enter it? Also the people who enter jahannam will complain a LOT, lol can you imagine? not doing anything bad and going to hell? You'd b like WHAT? so thats the reason!! Its so that we understand and experience this dunya and get what we deserve!!

:peace:

[j4763]

Ok, so why does allah test the evil? If he knows there going to kill, rape...etc why not stick them in hell at the very begining?
And does allah have some form of contract with the devil, i mean if god doesn't what someone to enter heaven/jannah does he say to satan "this guys been bad, so he's gotta go to hell" and what if satan dont want him either? Or does god own both heaven and hell?

[------]

Guess you just answerd it :)

Actually why have u picked that?

[j4763]

Actually why have u picked that?

Hopefully to make it aware that Muslims aren’t all evil head chopping terrorists.
And that many so-called Muslims aren’t following Islam. About 70% of Muslims I have known do not follow the Quran (some drink or smoke pot or eat pork…etc) and yet claim to be a Muslim and intern follow Islam which they are clearly not doing so.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Say the teacher knows you, and knows that you will pass the class with an A+, is it right for that teacher to just give you an A+ or would it be fair for her to make you have to take the class and all the tests to get the A+???

Teachers never know what grades their students are going to get. They can have a pretty good idea, but all kinds of things can change on the day of the test. That's very different from the foreknowledge that god is said to have.

Peace

[- Qatada -]

Hey j4763.


God owns & created paradise and hell. satan (the devil) is another creation of God, and satan will end up in hellfire too, due to the fact that he disobeys God, and he won't be able to bear the torture there either.

Ok, so why does allah test the evil? If he knows there going to kill, rape...etc why not stick them in hell at the very begining?

This has been mentioned over and over - the reason why God lets people live in this world and do their bad & good actions is so that there is evidence against them or with them on the day of judgement.


In the Qur'an it is mentioned:

They will then confess their sins: but far will be (Forgiveness) from the Companions of the Blazing Fire! (67:11)


If a person was thrown into hell from the beginning, then they could ask God what they did wrong, therefore God is the Most Just, and their acts in this world will be proof to support their eternal home in the afterlife.


It's also important to remember that:

Since Almighty God made all human beings swear to His Unique Divinity and Lordship when He created Adam (see Holy Qur'an 7:172), this oath is printed on the human soul even before it enters the mother's fetus. So when a child is born, it has with it a natural belief in God. This natural belief is called in Arabic the "fitrah". If a child were left alone, it would grow up aware of Almighty God in His Unity, but all children are affected by the pressures of their environment. The Prophet Muhammad - the Final Messenger of God, may God bless him and give him peace, reported that God the Exalted said: "I created My servants in the right religion, but the devils made them go astray." (Reported in Sahih Muslim.) The Messenger of God, may God bless him and give him peace, also said: "Each child is born in a state of fitrah, but his parents make him a Jew or a Christian." (Reported in Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim).

It's so simple, all the prophets come with the same message for man to obey the God who created him/her. But people make the matter so complicated, and this is why there is no compulsion in religion - whoever chooses to obey their Lord, they are promised with paradise, and whoever rejects the One who created him/her - they get the hellfire, due to them rejecting their Lord's promise.


..and Allaah Almighty knows best.


Peace.

[Daffodil]

god can change ur fate at any one time dnt forget, so although everything is pre destined for u, that doesnt mean he cant change ur fate/destiny.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

god can change ur fate at any one time dnt forget, so although everything is pre destined for u, that doesnt mean he cant change ur fate/destiny.

I would have thought that that's exactly what it means. :?

Peace

[Kidman]

Greetings,


Teachers never know what grades their students are going to get. They can have a pretty good idea, but all kinds of things can change on the day of the test. That's very different from the foreknowledge that god is said to have.

Peace

Ya, ok, the example wasn't that good, but lets say the teacher had a superpower to know what all the students would get. Some would get A's, and some would get F's. If the teacher just gave them the grade without testing them then it wont be fair and the students with the F grade will be like "you didn't even give us a chance."

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Ok, so why does allah test the evil? If he knows there going to kill, rape...etc why not stick them in hell at the very begining?
And does allah have some form of contract with the devil, i mean if god doesn't what someone to enter heaven/jannah does he say to satan "this guys been bad, so he's gotta go to hell" and what if satan dont want him either? Or does god own both heaven and hell?

:peace:

shaytaan also has freewill, the disgusting creature duz wat he pleases.

:peace:

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Hopefully to make it aware that Muslims aren’t all evil head chopping terrorists.
And that many so-called Muslims aren’t following Islam. About 70% of Muslims I have known do not follow the Quran (some drink or smoke pot or eat pork…etc) and yet claim to be a Muslim and intern follow Islam which they are clearly not doing so.

:peace:

I kno a LOT of the types of muslims your referring to, its a sickness of the heart and a sign of the last day i say, morality is slowly being lifted off earth.

lol i certainly hope im not an evil head chopping terrorist :eek:

:peace:

[Kidman]

Good question tho... I asked the same thing about a year ago...

[HeiGou]

Ya, ok, the example wasn't that good, but lets say the teacher had a superpower to know what all the students would get. Some would get A's, and some would get F's. If the teacher just gave them the grade without testing them then it wont be fair and the students with the F grade will be like "you didn't even give us a chance."

I think the correct parallel is: Suppose the teacher assigned each student a seat at the begining of term and would not let any students move without the teacher's permission. And then set an exam. And then gave all those in the first two rows, As, all those in the next two rows Bs, all those in the next two rows Cs, and it was a very small class so no one failed. How is this fair?

[- Qatada -]

Would you give your car a test run, even though you knew it worked?

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Would you give your car a test run, even though you knew it worked?

No. There would be no point.

Peace

[- Qatada -]

Greetings,


No. There would be no point.

Peace

Then how come people do it? :p

[shudnt_have]

Ok, so why does allah test the evil? If he knows there going to kill, rape...etc why not stick them in hell at the very begining?
And does allah have some form of contract with the devil, i mean if god doesn't what someone to enter heaven/jannah does he say to satan "this guys been bad, so he's gotta go to hell" and what if satan dont want him either? Or does god own both heaven and hell?

my username would be considered an evil temptation...natural tendency of some humans to do 'evil'
i know 'shouldnt_have' done that..but I did it...i couldnt control myself..

i think it could be said same of the rapist, serial killers etc..they just fall for evil..

for all that slip of the tongue..slip of the moral issues..the satan and our evil part is accountable. ALLAH had knowledge of everything, His creations have a begining and end. our end is when we will be acccountable for the actions we took in this life.

whereas, ALLAH Is merciful..so He doesnt punish the rapist or the evil doers in this life..He gives us many chances every day to change and repent..
everyday is a blessing to become version of ourselves..unfortunately sometimes we dont take advantage of it..

did it make sense?

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Then how come people do it? :p

Do they?

There's no point in testing something if you already know it works. That nullifies the whole reason for the test, surely?

Peace

[Goku]

How will we know we deserve our punishments or our rewards? Before the Earth was formed, God decided whether I, for instance, would go to Heaven or Hell. Well before I was born that decision had been made. So what can I do either way to change that? Suppose I have a choice before me: God knows what I will do. Can I change that, can I make a different decision other than the one that God has already decided that I will make?

Allah knows what you will do, but you have the free will, its not Allah who is making you disbelieve. If you choose to convert to Islam in the future, Allah already knows about it. Just because Allah knows in wot state we will die, doesnt mean He is actually making us die in that state, He just knows it.

[nimrod]

J4763, I would like to check your answers, so that we aren’t confused by any of our responses.

We are agreed that if you know your child will lie given a certain question, then the child is a liar.

We agree the child has the qualities of being a liar no matter if the question was raised or not.

You agree that liars should be punished.

Now if we agree on has been listed, let’s move on toward the next step.

You have stated you would punish the child as a liar, even though you never allowed the question to be raised.


Now, what answer will you give to the child as to why you are punishing the child?

How will you show your child that you are “just”?

Thanks
Nimrod

[nimrod]

HeiGou, I am not so sure I agree with your statement in the abstract;

“no difference between God's decision and God's knowing”.

I understand you prefaced the statement with;

“There is, in this case,”

So I am not exactly how far back into the equation you are going, perhaps I am just misreading what you are saying.

Free-Will is exactly that, free-will.

Can you truly have free-will from a machine that is programmed to exclusively move in such a way that disallows any undesired motions?

As to the last part of your post “Can I end up doing something other than what God already knows I am going to do?” that gets into a little grayer area.

Anyone who gives you a simple yes or no answer, imo, may be over-estimating their understandings just a bit.

The clearest “gray” answer I can give you (I have to give myself plenty of lee-way by saying most of this part is just my best speculation based on a number of years of study)
God knows which side of the scale you are going to wind up on.

Thanks
Nimrod

[nimrod]

HeiGou, I hope you don’t get the impression I am picking on your posts tonight, it is just that you ask very good questions and also make very good posts.

Your posts cut through a lot of “what “is” is” and I try to take advantage of that. You do a very good job of clearly stating exactly what you mean and your thoughts are very well thought out.

“Suppose the teacher assigned each student a seat at the beginning of term” ask's a very good question.

I would have rathered the question was asked as such “Suppose the teacher arbitrarily assigned each student a seat at the beginning of term”.

That, imo, is the crux.


Thanks
Nimrod

[HeiGou]

Allah knows what you will do, but you have the free will, its not Allah who is making you disbelieve. If you choose to convert to Islam in the future, Allah already knows about it. Just because Allah knows in wot state we will die, doesnt mean He is actually making us die in that state, He just knows it.

Actually it is God that is making me believe what I do and what I don't. I could have been born into a Muslim family but God decided not. I could have met a really convincing preacher. But God decided not. He has made the path easy for some, but not for me. If God knows what state I will die in, and He made all the decisions leading up to that point, every single meeting, every single teacher, every single book I read or TV program I watched, and if He hardened my Heart against Islam, in what sense isn't He making me die in the state I will be in?

[Ghazi]

Salaam

This question is simple allah has given you free will to do what you want he's shown you right from wrong, and left it up to you,.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Greetings,


Do they?

There's no point in testing something if you already know it works. That nullifies the whole reason for the test, surely?

Peace

:peace:

Wanted to ask if this question is the main reasoning behind u being an aethist? Why go through the test if God Allmighty knows all?

:peace:

[HeiGou]

HeiGou, I am not so sure I agree with your statement in the abstract;

“no difference between God's decision and God's knowing”.

I understand you prefaced the statement with;

“There is, in this case,”

So I am not exactly how far back into the equation you are going, perhaps I am just misreading what you are saying.

I would go fairly far back along that chain.

Free-Will is exactly that, free-will.

Yes, but free will requires some degree of real choice. And I have none I am told. So I cannot have free will.

Can you truly have free-will from a machine that is programmed to exclusively move in such a way that disallows any undesired motions?

No. But suppose I have a machine that has free will. Except, without being aware of it, it always turns left at a green sign and right at a red sign. I put it in a maze where I have mapped out a path for it to take by painting the turns either red or green. So off goes the machine through the maze. Can it end up somewhere I do not intend it to go? Similarly if I come to a major decision, suppose I meet a beggar on the street who asks me for money. Now if God knows that I always give money to older men and women who lack significant degrees of hygene, but never to anyone else. And He chooses to make the begger a normal, health, young man in a suit, and I do not give him a cent, in what sense have I made a real choice?

As to the last part of your post “Can I end up doing something other than what God already knows I am going to do?” that gets into a little grayer area.

Anyone who gives you a simple yes or no answer, imo, may be over-estimating their understandings just a bit.

The clearest “gray” answer I can give you (I have to give myself plenty of lee-way by saying most of this part is just my best speculation based on a number of years of study)
God knows which side of the scale you are going to wind up on.

He not only knows, but He has chosen the path I will take, and arranged everything so that I will choose the path He has decided on. He has painted the corners and turnings red or green for me. In what sense can I break away from that given whatever influences go into my decisions, God has knows them, and has chosen for them to appear?

[------]

:peace:

Thats like saying: Why kick a ball if you know where its gonna go? You kno its gonna go where u aim it so why kick it?

Allah swt has given us freewill to USE, yes he can easily tell us what we will do but then why should we enter jannah? what have we done to enter it? Also the people who enter jahannam will complain a LOT, lol can you imagine? not doing anything bad and going to hell? You'd b like WHAT? so thats the reason!! Its so that we understand and experience this dunya and get what we deserve!!

:peace:

Yeh thats so true...

[Hijaabi22]

[BANANA]its called free will and destiny and theres a link between the two even tho ppl dont understand how we can have freee will if Allah(swt) has already determined our destiny[/BANANA]

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Wanted to ask if this question is the main reasoning behind u being an aethist? Why go through the test if God Allmighty knows all?

Interesting question, but the answer's no. I think the main reason I'm an atheist is that I think it's massively more likely that god is a fiction invented by humans than that he actually exists.

Peace

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Greetings,


Interesting question, but the answer's no. I think the main reason I'm an atheist is that I think it's massively more likely that god is a fiction invented by humans than that he actually exists.

Peace

:peace:

learn arabic then read the quran and see if man can invent such a thing, no really i kno it takes a lot of time but gibson, man, if ur genuinely interested i urge you to do this one thing. If you still dont believe that God exists then i am at a loss :)

:peace:

[czgibson]

Greetings,

learn arabic then read the quran and see if man can invent such a thing, no really i kno it takes a lot of time but gibson, man, if ur genuinely interested i urge you to do this one thing. If you still dont believe that God exists then i am at a loss :)

I tried reading the Qur'an in English with a view to learning Arabic and reading it in the original if I was touched by it, but unfortunately this didn't happen. I've read a huge amount of literature from all over the world, but I couldn't even finish the Qur'an.

I saw nothing in it that remotely persuaded me that it was anything other than the work of human hands.

Peace

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^

:peace:

I am indeed saddenned to hear that but know that the translation is nothing close to the actual arabic script itself, it gives a vaaague vaaaague idea of the quran, this is the reason i am trying to learn arabic myself, so i can get that feel which Allah swt inspires :)

:peace:

[*noor]

^

:peace:

I am indeed saddenned to hear that but know that the translation is nothing close to the actual arabic script itself, it gives a vaaague vaaaague idea of the quran, this is the reason i am trying to learn arabic myself, so i can get that feel which Allah swt inspires :)

:peace:

this is so true

i understand some Arabic, but not all.
but if i hear somebody read a translation, i feel practically nothing
but when i hear a real Arabic recitation, i feel very emotional. the meaning is completely clearer when recited in Arabic.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

this is so true

i understand some Arabic, but not all.
but if i hear somebody read a translation, i feel practically nothing
but when i hear a real Arabic recitation, i feel very emotional. the meaning is completely clearer when recited in Arabic.

:sl:

JazakAllah khair that helps a lot!!! :)

:w:

[------]

I'm an atheist is that I think it's massively more likely that god is a fiction invented by humans than that he actually exists.

I saw nothing in it that remotely persuaded me that it was anything other than the work of human hands.

Oh. My. Allah :-\

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Oh. My. Allah :-\

:sl:

lol he sed translation, Allah sent down the arabic quran not a human dun translation!! :p

:w:

[A(SMILE ITS ME)]

salam.
Test?
Every day is a test, weather we like it or not. we don't know what will happen,only ALLAH. tests are their too remind us.
Remind us of the importnt things.

[------]

:sl:

lol he sed translation, Allah sent down the arabic quran not a human dun translation!! :p

:w:

I meant i was shocked at the extent he doesnt believe that there is a God.

Ok then I'll say Oh. My. God. :rollseyes

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I meant i was shocked at the extent he doesnt believe that there is a God.

Ok then I'll say Oh. My. God. :rollseyes

:sl:

Allah is God :thumbs_up

:w:

[------]

Then whats the problem :heated:

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Then whats the problem :heated:

:sl:

aint got a clue :?

:w:

[nimrod]

HeiGou, when you say you go back into that equation pretty far, I would like to color the picture in a little more so that we are for sure on the same page.

God knew that if creation was given freedom to act and chose (Free-will), then at some point some created thing would chose to act out side of God’s preferred choice.

Even we humans can foresee that same result if we had undertaken the same task. Most certainly God foresaw it. Therefore I think it is a perfectly reasonable statement to say, that even before any part of creation was created, God foreknew/foresaw that at least part of creation would rebel. Scripture also supports this stance.

Now to stretch that stance to say God created beings, A and B and C, to fail is not biblically supported. Nor would I agree that the stance would be at least biblically implied.

There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that Satan was created in such a way as to result in his being more likely to fail.

I will be so bold as to make this statement:

There is nothing in the Bible, to say or suggest that God foreknew exactly what part of creation would fail. (I am sure that will get jumped on by some, but they will have to offer biblical proof in their rebuttals.)

Therefore the bottom line is:
I am not so sure I agree with “no difference between God's decision and God's knowing” unless I know just how far back in the equation you are going.

As to the second part of the post and your reply:

Let’s simplify things just a bit, let’s say that for the sake of argument, the machine doesn’t actually move at all, all it does is to think and form opinions and judgments.

Let’s say that a fellow is paralyzed from birth. The person can speak and move the head about a bit, but that is about it.

About the only real action this person is capable of is “Thought” and commutating those thoughts.

Can that person be judged as to quality of character? I dare say Yes.

The child that will lie given a certain question is, by default, a liar.
Now the particular question may have never came up, so the child never lied in response to the question.

The true nature of the child is exactly the same either way.

I hope now you see why I made my first post on this thread as I did.

To address you point about the green signs and the red signs:

No mater how many green or red signs you encounter, you still have freedom of thought.

Freedom of thought equals freedom of choice.

Now I agree that the events a person encounters (The red or green signs) will most certainly have an effect on what thoughts or beliefs a person holds, but I don’t agree that the true nature of a person is purely a product of those events.

I say that a person never gives up freedom of thought, no mater which green or red lights they may encounter throughout this lifetime.

I will leave it at that, till you have a chance to respond.

I haven’t responded to your last point because I would rather wait till after your response to this post.

Thanks
Nimrod

[HeiGou]

God knew that if creation was given freedom to act and chose (Free-will), then at some point some created thing would chose to act out side of God’s preferred choice.

Surely He knew that if He created a world where He controlled each and every input, any freedom to act and choose would be purely illusionary? God knows what decision I make, and why, before I make it. God has brought me here for His own reasons. He has a plan. How can I change that?

Even we humans can foresee that same result if we had undertaken the same task. Most certainly God foresaw it. Therefore I think it is a perfectly reasonable statement to say, that even before any part of creation was created, God foreknew/foresaw that at least part of creation would rebel. Scripture also supports this stance.

Why is that reasonable? To God, all creatures must appear so simple as to be mechanical toys. We do not have complex thought processes in comparison with God. He knows what we are going to do before we do it. It is not as if there is a cookie jar and some children in the other room. It is that God knows little Johnny is weak minded and greedy because he was raised that way and at 3 pm next Thursday Johnny will reach down the cookie jar withotu asking and take the lid off. Now, how much free will does Johnny really have here given we know he is weak and greedy?

Now to stretch that stance to say God created beings, A and B and C, to fail is not biblically supported. Nor would I agree that the stance would be at least biblically implied.

Although some Christians would disagree with you. However God would know even before He created Creatures A, B and C that A and B would fall by the wayside because of the trials and tests God created and the nature of their personalities which He chose, while C would not.

There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that Satan was created in such a way as to result in his being more likely to fail.

And yet God knew that he would. Having made him the way he was and placed him in the situation he was placed in.

I will be so bold as to make this statement:

There is nothing in the Bible, to say or suggest that God foreknew exactly what part of creation would fail. (I am sure that will get jumped on by some, but they will have to offer biblical proof in their rebuttals.)

But God knows all so the only way that He could not know is if He denied Himself that knowledge and I do not see how that works.

To address you point about the green signs and the red signs:

No mater how many green or red signs you encounter, you still have freedom of thought.

Freedom of thought equals freedom of choice.

Well no. I often feel a strong complusion to do things even though I do not know why or even when I know I should not. I am very good at rationalising after the event too. However if God knows I always turn one way at a Green sign, then the issue is irrelevant. I can think about why I turn left, but if I always turn left, I always turn left. This is simplified a little to one input. Presumably my decision making process has hundreds of inputs, but God knows them all and knows what the result will be if I am faced with a given set of inputs.

[akulion]

Salam Alaikum

The best I can explain is as follows:

Time is a creation of Allah

Thus for God time is not a factor which prevents him in any aspect.

That is how God can see at the beginning of time and the end of time and knows everything that will happen.

--------------

We however live inside the domain of time - thus we are restricted by this.

We dont know what will happen next and we cannot jump ahead in time either.

Thus we have to live our lives out painstakingly one day at a time.

---------------------------------------------

Now putting it together:

God gave us a free will and restricted us with "time" so our lives move slowly.

we have to live it out and what decisions we make are entirely our own.

This is OUR reality.

For God he already knows what we are going to do because he is outside the domain of time and sees all and hears all.

The trials in this life are a part of creation - we will be given good and bad opportunities, however how we act on those is OUR OWN decision.

Does God know of our decisions before hand?

Yes God knows because he has seen it already.

Will God then intervene?

No God will not intervene because these are decisions WE have made using our free wills. So the accountability is OURS and does not fall upon God.

-------------------------------------

I know my little explanation above may not be the best but I hope it will help shed some light into the matter insha'Allah

[*Hana*]

J4763;

#1. If you had a certain child that you knew would lie when asked a certain question, would you allow that that question to be raised?

#2. Would you punish the child for being a liar?

Thanks
Nimrod

Peace Nimrod:

I am really late responding to this as I was just reading the thread but I thought it was an interesting question.

For me, yes, I would still ask the question and give them the opportunity to not lie. I've always told my son, "If you do something wrong, ok, we can talk about it and I might get upset or you might get punished, BUT, if you lie to me about it I will be MORE angry and the punishment would be longer." I also explained to him that the more lies he tells the less people will trust him, so that in time they won't believe a word he says.

So, yup, I would definitely ask the question, and if he lied, he would be punished twice....once for the initial problem and once for lying. If he told me the truth, I would tell him how much I appreciate his honesty, do my best to not show anger (depending on the circumstances), and probably reduce his punishment for accepting responsibility and choosing to tell the truth even though he might have been afraid of the consequences.

As in faith, Allah, swt, has told us right from wrong....we have that information already so if we choose to do the wrong, we will be held accountable. If we do wrong and we turn to Allah, swt, admitting our wrong and sincerely ask for forigiveness the chances are very great we will be forgiven. We will all make mistakes, that's a given, but how we handle them and learn from them is what matters.

Peace,
Hana

[mujahedeen2087]

One thing that confuses me about Allah/God is the whole “life’s a test” thing.
If something bad happens (war/natural disasters…etc) many Muslims say that is a test from God. What’s the point if he already knows our future, from the moment where born God must know whether were going to become a Muslim or not. So why not skip the whole “life test” and place us in heaven or hell, once were conceived?

Why does Allah test us if he already knows whether we pass or fail?

The life test is for you so you can learn from your mistakes and correct them. you have to work to get to jenna it is not free.

[Sahraxx]

mashallah i have just read this thread and there are so many beleiving brothers and sisters the replies were wonderful

[arabianprincess]

welll . god dont force u to choose wat path u wanna go. but he knows wat u will choose ,,, salam peace

[nimrod]

HeiGou, sometimes I am not as clear as I should be in some of my postings, sorry about that.
When I say creation, I mean all of creation, which is why I asked how far back into the equation you were going.

There is nothing in the Bible that suggests the fall of Satan occurred after the creation of man.
There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that Satan was created in such a way that it resulted in Satan being any more prone to sinning than any other early part of creation.

I do understand what you are saying about orchestrated events. However there is nothing in the Bible to suggest that the events that occurred in Satan’s fall were predestined in any way.

As to mans actions being all predestined, to come to that conclusion a person must make a lot of assumptions based on speculation.
I can understand that, as much of what I have concluded to be acceptable and probable is in a large part based on assumptions.

When you say God knows Johnny is weak minded, how does God know that?
If the answer is that God knows because God knows, then I will ask; what possible information could God be acting on to know that Little Johnny is weak minded?

I know that a child that is prone to lying will lie. If I wish to show the child that lying is wrong and then set up an event, that the child then lies about, did I predestine the child to lie?
What about while dealing with adults, would your answer be any different?

Answer this question in regard to your best assumptions, in a new born, is the soul created to inhabit the body, or, is the body created to house the soul?

I agree that many Christians will disagree with me, I say bring the biblical scripture to the table and we will talk about it.
Most people are linear thinkers (Or at least I hope that they are at least that. Saddly many don’t seem to even rise to that level.); they make assumptions where they shouldn’t.
Just because the last segment, of what a person ponders, results in a particular logical conclusion, that doesn’t always mean that the given results, are assumptions to be repeated in the next ponderings.

What do you make of this scripture?

Genesis 18

20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."


I will try to address this “But God knows all so the only way that He could not know is if He denied Himself that knowledge and I do not see how that works”.


Ezekiel 1

4 I looked, and I saw a windstorm coming out of the north—an immense cloud with flashing lightning and surrounded by brilliant light. The center of the fire looked like glowing metal, 5 and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was that of a man, 6 but each of them had four faces and four wings. 7 Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze. 8 Under their wings on their four sides they had the hands of a man. All four of them had faces and wings, 9 and their wings touched one another. Each one went straight ahead; they did not turn as they moved.
10 Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a man, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle. 11 Such were their faces. Their wings were spread out upward; each had two wings, one touching the wing of another creature on either side, and two wings covering its body. 12 Each one went straight ahead. Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, without turning as they went. 13 The appearance of the living creatures was like burning coals of fire or like torches. Fire moved back and forth among the creatures; it was bright, and lightning flashed out of it. 14 The creatures sped back and forth like flashes of lightning.
15 As I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the ground beside each creature with its four faces. 16 This was the appearance and structure of the wheels: They sparkled like chrysolite, and all four looked alike. Each appeared to be made like a wheel intersecting a wheel. 17 As they moved, they would go in any one of the four directions the creatures faced; the wheels did not turn about as the creatures went. 18 Their rims were high and awesome, and all four rims were full of eyes all around.
19 When the living creatures moved, the wheels beside them moved; and when the living creatures rose from the ground, the wheels also rose. 20 Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, and the wheels would rise along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels. 21 When the creatures moved, they also moved; when the creatures stood still, they also stood still; and when the creatures rose from the ground, the wheels rose along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.
22 Spread out above the heads of the living creatures was what looked like an expanse, sparkling like ice, and awesome. 23 Under the expanse their wings were stretched out one toward the other, and each had two wings covering its body. 24 When the creatures moved, I heard the sound of their wings, like the roar of rushing waters, like the voice of the Almighty, like the tumult of an army. When they stood still, they lowered their wings.



In the above scripture, what assumptions would you feel comfortable making?

If I suggested, that when looking at the single four-faced creature, each face is an independent thinker, could you accept that?

If not, then why not?

If I said that it is possible that one of the faces held knowledge that one of the other faces didn’t have, could you accept that?
If not, then why not?

If I said the four faced creature was a single being, could you accept that?
If not, then why not?

If I said that the creature is an example of a being that is ”four in one”, could you accept that?
If not, then why?

Now of the above statements, I don’t claim to have the answers to any of it.

Of those that claim to know all the answers or even most of the answers, to what I have posted, I say first off, I think they are over estimating their knowledge and secondly, explain it to me with authority so that I can judge the reasonableness of what you believe.

As to your last point, if you have a tendency to turn right at the green light, even when you know you shouldn’t. Whose fault is it when you turn right at the green light, even though you knew you shouldn’t? Even if the green light is one God presented you with.

Thanks
Nimrod

[nimrod]

Hana Aku, you have made a very good post.

Thanks
Nimrod

[HeiGou]

welll . god dont force u to choose wat path u wanna go. but he knows wat u will choose ,,, salam peace

Self-evidently the only way He can know the path you're going to chose is if He knows how you make your decisions - what inputs and influences affect your decision making process. As He chooses which inputs and influences you get, well, I do not see how you could argue that He does not also chose which path you will take. How can He know what decision you make and fix it so that you are put in a certain place at a certain time, and that you are the sort of person you are, without having an excellent idea of the impact of your environment on you? Suppose that the woman of my dreams lived around the corner and if we ever met, even for a a second, I'd be so struck that I'd move heaven and earth to be together. Now God can choose whether I meet that girl or not. If He decides I shouldn't, we will never be together. Where is my free choice?

[------]

HeiGou WHY do i get the feeling that ur an Atheist.....:?

[Ghazi]

Salaam

Subhanallah, is this the type of things the kufur are gonna try and say on the day of judgment.

[------]

Yh akhi, its forewarned in the qur'an that they will. :heated:

[Ghazi]

Salaam

This is off-topic I know I apologies, I'm from Liverpool and yesterday when they won the FA cup the kufar were jumping up and down with joy running around with flags this was while I was one my way to asar, I couldn't help but think of the day of judgment will all these people be so happy may allah guide them to the straight path.

[HeiGou]

Subhanallah, is this the type of things the kufur are gonna try and say on the day of judgment.

Well I hope I'll have a little bit more to say, but will it matter as God knows what I think and thought and what I will say and where I will go. If we weren't told that there would be a Day of Judgement, would we have any reason to think God would bother to ask us to explain ourselves?

[HeiGou]

HeiGou WHY do i get the feeling that ur an Atheist.....:?

Umm, I don't know. Because I always post in threads on Atheism?

[Ghazi]

Well I hope I'll have a little bit more to say, but will it matter as God knows what I think and thought and what I will say and where I will go. If we weren't told that there would be a Day of Judgement, would we have any reason to think God would bother to ask us to explain ourselves?

Salaam

I'd like to bring up a point, people who can honestly say they have never heard of the message of islam will have a special test for them they'll be told to jump into the hell-fire if they do that means they'd would've have obeyed allah in the dunya and the fire will reveal it self to be janna, if they don't they'll be thrown into the real hell-fire.

[sumay28]

How fair would it be if a teacher failed you on a test that you never took?

[HeiGou]

How fair would it be if a teacher failed you on a test that you never took?

How fair would it be if a teacher let you take a test but had already decided you would get a C-?

[- Qatada -]

How fair would it be if a teacher let you take a test but had already decided you would get a C-?

You're only going to find out once you've taken the test, so you're not going to be successful if you don't try to work hard in the test in the first place.

[------]

Umm, I don't know. Because I always post in threads on Atheism?

No because you always post things against God...

[IbnAbdulHakim]

How fair would it be if a teacher let you take a test but had already decided you would get a C-?

:peace:
How unfair would it be for giving that student a C- without letting him take the test?
:peace:

[HeiGou]

How unfair would it be for giving that student a C- without letting him take the test?

I don't see the difference. If the teacher knows beforehand the student will get a C-, not think but know, what does it matter? The teacher is only wasting a few hours of the student's time.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I don't see the difference. If the teacher knows beforehand the student will get a C-, not think but know, what does it matter? The teacher is only wasting a few hours of the student's time.

:peace:
Yes will think about it the child will argue and say, NO I WANNA TAKE THE TEST!!!
:peace:

[- Qatada -]

I don't see the difference. If the teacher knows beforehand the student will get a C-, not think but know, what does it matter? The teacher is only wasting a few hours of the student's time.

And the students going to ask the teacher for proof. Hence the teacher will let him/her take the test so that this proof can be used to prove that the student is worthy of a C-.


Anyway, this threads getting nowhere - so i'm going to close it temporarily insha'Allaah.


Thread Closed.