Hypocrisy from the R.G.Crew (TM)

[Sheikh Haroon]

Salaam

I hear that the LI team is much more open to criticism nowadays, so here goes. I wonder why it is that you don't allow discussion on sects in Islam, when you have a whole forum section dedicated to 'deviated' sects? Should it not be "deviated sects according to the Rightfully Guided Crew"? When will you people realise that blasting 'aqeedah like a cannon at the "deviants" has never worked? Sorry if ive broken the suspense.

The manners taught by the Prophet (pbuh) were all to do with modesty and humbleness and wisdom, and you guys actually seem like you take a stance to insult, degrade and spit at everyone else. You have a million articles and threads, a few with some decent things, and yet you still come across as the most repelling bunch of Rightfully Guided people in the cyberworld. 'Aqeedah is not the only important bit of Islam, what about things like manners? What about things like kind, warm, gentle speech? Are you saving all that for your (poor) wives?

Rules, regulations, bannings, no flags, no pics, no this, no that, thats all fine, but dont you realise that people will do that themselves once they learn some good manners? Why doesnt your Islam rub off on them? Either their hearts are closed and they have just come to your forum to be banned, or you arent doing your work properly, just as Shaykh Hasan al-Basri said, "either there is something wrong with your words, or there is something wrong with my heart, for your words didnt permeate my heart".

In case you are wondering, i am not salafi:), so it wouldnt be a sin to ban the deviant.

P.S. LONG LIVE FARHAN AND zAk!!

Warm Regards

[SirZubair]

"Arguementation is not part of my religon" - Imam Malik. :)

[Far7an]

Wa alaikum asalaam,

Kya haal hai Haroon Sahib? Teek taak?

I'll wait for someone else to offer an official reply, but just wanted to make a few comments.

Are you saving all that for your (poor) wives?

If you wanna say something.. say it to my face.. on MSN :rollseyes.

P.S. LONG LIVE FARHAN AND zAk!!

It's Far7an and zÂk. I think he posted this last line so he has a lifeline. ;)

[kadafi]

:sl: brother Haroon

Let me first mention that you could have raised this issue with us via the private messaging facility and we would have been more than happy to explain it to you akhee, insha'Allaah.

We have dedicated a whole section to warn the sincere Muslims from the people of Bida'a that are known and have their methodology documented. The simple intention behind this aim is based on our love for our brothers and sisters for the sake of Allaah by calling towards the way of the salaf.

By allowing discussions on the people of bida'a, we are introducing argumentation, generating confusion which defeats the purpose of this forum and that is to call people to the way of Allaah.

Ibn Battah mentions an athaar from Sufyaan Ath-Thwaree (may Allaah have mercy on him) who is reported to have said:

"Whoever listens to a person of innovation leaves the protection of Allaah and is left to himself. "

And the same Tabi'ee that you have quoted (Al-Hasan) who said:

"Do not sit with the people of innovated beliefs, do not debate with them and do not listen to them."

Imaam al-Laalikaa'ee mentions all these athaars from the salaf towards the people of innovations in his Sharh Usool ul-I'tiqaad.

You referred to the teachings of the Prophet in regards to adab and wisdom but yet label us unjustly as the 'Rightfully guided crew' and 'you people'. Not to mention the imputation of hypocrisy.

We do our utmost best to call people to the Sunnah while avoiding the discussions of baatil [falsehood].

What really suprised me is how you equated the most important and fundamental aspect of Islaam [Tawheed] to adab, the line between belief and disbelief. Without Tawheed, there is no adab as adab is merely a result from the obedience to Allaah.

Praise be to Allaah, the majority have had good experience on this forum and have gained knowledge of the fundamentals subjects of the Deen. This is expressed in the 'your opinions' thread.

Insha'Allaah akhee, leave this petty matters for they will serve you nothing but remain your accountability.

Remember that if one detects a hint of harshness from his fellow Muslim, he should give him naseeha for the sake of Allaah and not rebuke him publically and accuse him since these are all basic foundations of manners in Islaam.

Your last playful message is uncalled for and is simply untrue.

may Allaah (Exalted is He) give us tawfeeq in purifying this forum and calling it to the authenthic and traditional Islaam, ameen.

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[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
JazakAllah khayr, Br. Kadafi. You summed it up perfectly.

:w:

[Sheikh Haroon]

Salaam Kadafi

I must admit I am surprised. I expected to be banned:).

You seem to have taken from my words, some version of "innovation and shirk is allowed". I did not contend Tawheed, nor encouraged bid'ah, rather, as you can re-read, i spoke regarding the LI board's approach to dealing with it.

As our teacher taught us, if your camel has broken free and run away, by you shouting at it "Oi, get back here you stupid camel", it doesnt exactly encourage it to come back. On the other hand if you go out with some of the camel's favourite food, take your time, show it you mean well, then it is much more likely to return. This is my point. I am not saying align yourself with the people of bid'ah, i am saying your approach to dealing with it is not amiable. I for one agree with many fundamental "salafi" issues, but i still dont like the way the da'wah is being done.

Take the brelvis for example. As deviated as they may be, we can learn something from them in terms of how to give good da'wah. Why are the Qadianis growing in numbers, even though they are twisted? Because of their da'wah technique. So the people of the Straight Path should have the best of manners. No mubtadi alive today is any worse than the mushrikeen were at the time of the Prophet (pbuh), or Firaun was to Musa (a.s) and Haroon (a.s), but yet those Prophets spoke in what manner? "Baatil, Baatil, kufr, kufr, kufr, jahannam for you, you, you and you!"? If they had done that, they would have been entitled to do so, because in fact they were on the baatil and kufr, and jahannam was awaiting them. But still you must speak words of kindness. Is that so difficult to grasp?

Perhaps im releasing my frustration with salafis in general on you guys, but i notice it primarily with 2 kinds of people. Firstly, over zealous youth, and secondly, over zealous Salafi youth. Why cant you people just be kind and peaceful? That way you wouldnt even have to debate so much and people would join you based on your akhlaaq. Didnt that happen countless times with the Prophet? Based on his good manners, people accepted Islam? None of us are on the absolute haq more than he was, and if that is what he did, then are we better, are you better?

And btw, when you send PMs like this to admins, they tend not to think it is such a big deal.

Ansar. Nice to see you still going.

Regards

[SirZubair]

Take the brelvis for example. As deviated as they may be, we can learn something from them in terms of how to give good da'wah.

Was listening to a lecture by shaykh hamza yusuf on the way home from work,a lecture he gave in Denmark after the whole cartoon war started..

"Giving dawah is like inviting someone to your house to dinner.You wont spit in their plate,would you?"

:X

[searchingsoul]

Personally I like this forum. I do keep wondering if it is possible to be Muslim without subscribing to a particular sect.

I'm confused about the information I keep reading that there is only one Islam. At the same time there are many different Islamic views (people I know and sources I read). Does this mean that the people who hold different Islamic views aren't actually Muslim? Can someone explain this to me? It is confusing for a non-Muslim.

[Sheikh Haroon]

Peace Searching Soul

Of the little know-how that i have of this area, i would say that there is only one Islam, with various emphases which sometimes lead to exaggerations. Some groups emphasis things like the love of the Prophet (pbuh), and others linked to these groups exaggerate it to a whole new level. One group emphasises da'wah, one emphasises 'aqeedah, one emphasises politics, one emphasises khilafah and the list goes on. It is all just different emphases. The splitting occurs, when there isnt common ground to be found, but rather it has been exaggerated to such an extent that each party views the other as out of Islam. Strange phenomena im sure you'll agree, but that's all there is to it.

And Allah knows best, Regards

[Sabi]

The simple intention behind this aim is based on our love for our brothers and sisters for the sake of Allaah by calling towards the way of the salaf.

So this is a salafee site. Are you connected with The Islamic Bookshop in Birmingham? I only learned about Salafees last summer but they seem to be very nice people. At least they do not beat-up Sabis like some Wahabis did.:ooh:

I think there is a misconception about the Madhabs though. Sometimes people say "I follow a different Madhab" but this sentence is not possibl;e to say. In fact it is only possible to say "I am studying in a different madhab" or "I only have an Ijazah from the ___ madhab". This is because only those who have an Ijaza can claim to belong to any specific madhab since the Ijazah they hold will only go back to one of the 4 imams (as for those Ijazahs going back to Jafar, Al-Azhar in 1857 ruled that they were valid, but I will not talk about them here).

There are great scholars in the world who have Ijazahs from more than one madhab, but sadly such Kitaabulalema are rare these days.

The different madhabs do not represent different sects, but different parralel lines in fiqh. Same horse different jockey. The major difference though is in how each of the madhabs decide what is sahih and what is not from among the Hadith. Malik is simple in this respect because they have their own collection of about 2000 sahih hadith. Hanif is simple in that they accept any Hadith which does not contradict the Quran. Shafi accepted Mursal narrations. Hanbal accepted virtually anything even if it did contradict the Quran as long as its chain of narration was strong.

This is the way things were for 1300 years in orthodox islam and anything which went outside of this system was biddah. then the caliphate came to an end and Biddah has been on the increase ever since.

The only difference between the Madhabs was in methodology with regards to what is and what is not Sahih in the Ahadith. So-called Salafees generally work within the Hanbal Madhab, though I am not an expert on the intricacies of how they decide what is and what is not Sahih. Ibn Adbdul Wahab (although he did not have any Ijazah) grew up with a Hanbal background but had his own idea which is why they named a sect after his philosophy.

I heard that if one were to count the apparent sects of islam in the world today one would find that there are more than 73 sects, but in fact all of them trace back to one of 73 ideologies, and Wahab's was one of those ideologies even though not all sects sharing his ideology are friendly to each other or even to Wahab himself. This simply goes to show how blinded some of these sects are by hate for outsiders, that they can not even see that they are the same.

So basically remember that for 1300 years orthodox islam was unchanged, and there was no such thing as Madhab except in deciding what hadith to accept as Sahih. The easiest in these regards are Malik and Hanbal, while Haneef and Shafee require deeper discernment, but its all good, and any muslim without an Ijazah should not presume to correct another until certain that they are more junior in knowledge.

[Muhammad]

:sl: and Greetings,

So this is a salafee site. Are you connected with The Islamic Bookshop in Birmingham? I only learned about Salafees last summer but they seem to be very nice people. At least they do not beat-up Sabis like some Wahabis did.:ooh:

Actually, nobody has ever claimed to be salafi here - or belinging to any sect for that matter. We only focus on the basic teachings of Islam based upon authentic teachings from the Qur'an and the Sunnah. You will find that a lot of labelling goes on, yet people do not ask to be labelled.

A lot of misconceptions and clarifications regarding sects can be found in the Sects and Divisions forum, particularly: http://www.islamicboard.com/sects-di...lafi-path.html

Peace :).

[kadafi]

Salaam Kadafi

I must admit I am surprised. I expected to be banned.

You seem to have taken from my words, some version of "innovation and shirk is allowed". I did not contend Tawheed, nor encouraged bid'ah, rather, as you can re-read, i spoke regarding the LI board's approach to dealing with it.

As our teacher taught us, if your camel has broken free and run away, by you shouting at it "Oi, get back here you stupid camel", it doesnt exactly encourage it to come back. On the other hand if you go out with some of the camel's favourite food, take your time, show it you mean well, then it is much more likely to return. This is my point. I am not saying align yourself with the people of bid'ah, i am saying your approach to dealing with it is not amiable. I for one agree with many fundamental "salafi" issues, but i still dont like the way the da'wah is being done.

Take the brelvis for example. As deviated as they may be, we can learn something from them in terms of how to give good da'wah. Why are the Qadianis growing in numbers, even though they are twisted? Because of their da'wah technique. So the people of the Straight Path should have the best of manners. No mubtadi alive today is any worse than the mushrikeen were at the time of the Prophet (pbuh), or Firaun was to Musa (a.s) and Haroon (a.s), but yet those Prophets spoke in what manner? "Baatil, Baatil, kufr, kufr, kufr, jahannam for you, you, you and you!"? If they had done that, they would have been entitled to do so, because in fact they were on the baatil and kufr, and jahannam was awaiting them. But still you must speak words of kindness. Is that so difficult to grasp?

Perhaps im releasing my frustration with salafis in general on you guys, but i notice it primarily with 2 kinds of people. Firstly, over zealous youth, and secondly, over zealous Salafi youth. Why cant you people just be kind and peaceful? That way you wouldnt even have to debate so much and people would join you based on your akhlaaq. Didnt that happen countless times with the Prophet? Based on his good manners, people accepted Islam? None of us are on the absolute haq more than he was, and if that is what he did, then are we better, are you better?

And btw, when you send PMs like this to admins, they tend not to think it is such a big deal.

Ansar. Nice to see you still going.

Regards

:sl:

You either misunderstood me or I was not clear enough and for that I apologise.

Your whole premise is based on this vague notion that this forum does not welcome every sincere who wish to learn more about Islaam. What you're advocating is a discussion group where we discuss and debate with the people who do not adhere to the way of Ahlus Sunnah (such as the Raafis,Qadianis, etc).

In addition, you're holding this perception that we are harsh against individuals who belong to certain groups and sects and for that I have never come across a statement from the staff of this forum where we banned members because they belonged to a different group. Rather, we do not wish to engage in to sectarian discussions and have opened a separate section for that lest fitnah should arise. If you're filled with motivation to engage in sectarian talks, then there are plenty of forums where they allow this type of discussions.

Your impertinent analogies of Firaun and Moosa has nothing do with the issue raised nor we have we ever used those slogans.

One should understand that this is a forum based on the adherence of the way of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jammah which is the creed of the companions, their successors and their followers' followers, the four imaams and those who followed them exactly in faith. We do not affliate with any ahzaab, sect, groups or ideologies. Your frustration lies in with the ghulaat who masquerade with the affiliation with the maddhab of the salaf such as salafipublications.

The problem with the lack of unity in the contempary world is due the gross lack of understanding of what Allaah (Exalted is He) has commanded the believers.

Allaah (Exalted is He) did not use the word 'unite' in the aayah:

"And hold fast to the Rope of Allaah and do not be divided", he uses the word 'hold fast' as in clinging to an object which is our 'Aqeedah. Once we hold fast to the 'Aqeedah of Ahlul Sunnah, we can come together and unite. And hence, we are trying to instill the correct 'Aqeedah and fundamentals of this Deen so that the believers are united.

Lastly, It seems that still haven't your retracted your accusations and yet continue to offer criticism. But your criticism is rejected due your unfound accusations, your explicit arrogance, and pot calling the kettle black and this why I advised you in the previous to busy yourselfs with increasing your knowledge and how to approach a believer instead of publicially rebuking them.

Personally I like this forum. I do keep wondering if it is possible to be Muslim without subscribing to a particular sect.

I'm confused about the information I keep reading that there is only one Islam. At the same time there are many different Islamic views (people I know and sources I read). Does this mean that the people who hold different Islamic views aren't actually Muslim? Can someone explain this to me? It is confusing for a non-Muslim.

Dear searchingsoul. Islaam is based on one creed. As Shaykh Muhammad ibn Salih al-`Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

"No doubt, it is obligatory for all Muslims to adopt the way of the salaf as their madhhab, not affiliation to a specific party"

Here is the creed of Islaam based on the methodology of the companions, their followers, their followers' followers and those who followed them exactly in faith:

http://www.islamicboard.com/sects-di...our-creed.html

Here is an article that answers your question:

She is confused about which groups and sects are telling the truth
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=en...QR=20760&dgn=4

This thread is closed

:w: