Questions about Judaism answered by a Jew!

[thirdwatch512]

shalom,

i have one quick question..

ok my friend told me that in the Torah there's a mathematical miracle, and every 42 letters or words or something like that, you will get a word that starts with a T, then 42 more and O, then 42 more R, then A, then H. is that true, or? i was interrupted before my friend finished telling me, so idk if it was 42, 43, letters, words, or what lol.

[eagleye]

was not Joshua who inherit moses position? who kept after moses, to lead people of israel to the promise land??? :mmokay:

[rebelishaulman]

To clear up your misconceptions. I am not hear to condemn another Jew or anyone for that matter. I am hear to answer questions. I sincerely never heard of Isaiah speaking of a false prophet so I thanked the member who provided me with this information. I do not believe there is anything else to analyze.

since judism is named after a man and not God's service...

Well the name "Judaism" in english is named after a man. But the word "Yehudi" is the name for Judaism not butchered by the english language and it has a much deeper meaning.

[Woodrow]

Let us all remember, this is a strictly question and answer thread and is not intended to be a debate.

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[rebelishaulman]

shalom,

i have one quick question..

ok my friend told me that in the Torah there's a mathematical miracle, and every 42 letters or words or something like that, you will get a word that starts with a T, then 42 more and O, then 42 more R, then A, then H. is that true, or? i was interrupted before my friend finished telling me, so idk if it was 42, 43, letters, words, or what lol.

You may be refering to Gematria. Here is some reading material on the subject since I am not learned in that area.

http://www.inner.org/gematria/gematria.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gematria

[arabiyyah]

if a convert to judaism decides to not be jewish anymore can he leave judaism>????

[rebelishaulman]

if a convert to judaism decides to not be jewish anymore can he leave judaism>????

If someone converts to Judaism without practicing Judaism, that is, without being a religious Jew, then his conversion is bogus. He remains a gentile. He does not become Jewish at all.

However, if he went through a valid conversion, meaning, a conversion where he fulfilled all the technical requirements of conversions, one of which is to practice Judaism, then, if somewheredown the road he changes is mind and decides he does not want to be Jewish, it is too late. He is stuck being Jewish, and even if he becomes non-religious, since, at the time of conversion he was then religious, he will remain Jewish forever.

If that type of situation G-d forbid happens, it would have been much better for the person to have remained a gentile. There is nothgin wrong with being a gentile according to the Torah. But there is a lot wrong with being a non-religious Jew.

So by making himself Jewish and then becoming non-religious, he has done a terrible diservice to himself. Better had he remained a gentile.

[Grace Seeker]

What if he is like many young people I know who like to dabble in all sorts of different religions? Perhaps he is raised Christian, but really non-practicing. In college he becomes seriously interested in Judaism and converts. But a few years later, he then becomes just as seriously interested in Islam and converts to it. How would such a person be viewed by the Jewish community?

[rebelishaulman]

What if he is like many young people I know who like to dabble in all sorts of different religions? Perhaps he is raised Christian, but really non-practicing. In college he becomes seriously interested in Judaism and converts. But a few years later, he then becomes just as seriously interested in Islam and converts to it. How would such a person be viewed by the Jewish community?

If his intentions were to keep all the mitzvot in the Torah when he converted, he is Jewish. He can no longer change that. The person would be viewed at with obvious negative views because not only did the person convert to Judaism, but now, after undertaking the honor of keeping G-d's Torah completely the convert decides not to, the convert made a terrible choice.

To be a non-observant Jew is not good at all. Especially after you swear to keep G-d's law the Torah. The convert will not be looked at any harsher then a from birth Jew, who tries to leave Judaism. Regardless of what "scripture" a person decides to undertake he is always Jewish. It is a matter of if he is an observant Jew, or a non-observant Jew.

There is no such thing as a "Jewish born Muslim". He is labeled the same as any person who has decided to turn there back on the Torah. It is not relevant if he chose to follow a "quran" or a "science text book" when he chose not to be Torah observant.

[Grace Seeker]

So, I have a friend who was born Jewish. Both of her parents are practicing Jews, and she was until her late teens/young adulthood. At that time in her life she began to question some aspects of her faith and feel some emptiness. Eventually she came to the conclusion that she believed that Jesus was the promised Jewish Messiah. She has sense married a Christian, "joined" a church (in the way that Christian churches record membership), and her children are being raised primarily in the Christian community, but she still keeps all of the Jewish ritual observances such as Sabbovth, Passover, the non-eating of pork, etc. (and her family with her). She defines herself as a Messianic Jew, but does not want to have anything to do with groups like Jews for Jesus. From my perspective I see her as a Christian who simply values her own cultural history, but how would the Jewish community view her? (I know how her parents and grandparents do, they simply hurt and then try to move on without talking about it anymore than they have to.) And she is hurt when Christians ask her when she is going to give up being a Jew (by that they mean the rituals that she does keep), because she says that being a Jew is as much a part of her as her skin is.

[rebelishaulman]

So, I have a friend who was born Jewish. Both of her parents are practicing Jews, and she was until her late teens/young adulthood. At that time in her life she began to question some aspects of her faith and feel some emptiness. Eventually she came to the conclusion that she believed that Jesus was the promised Jewish Messiah. She has sense married a Christian, "joined" a church (in the way that Christian churches record membership), and her children are being raised primarily in the Christian community, but she still keeps all of the Jewish ritual observances such as Sabbovth, Passover, the non-eating of pork, etc. (and her family with her). She defines herself as a Messianic Jew, but does not want to have anything to do with groups like Jews for Jesus. From my perspective I see her as a Christian who simply values her own cultural history, but how would the Jewish community view her? (I know how her parents and grandparents do, they simply hurt and then try to move on without talking about it anymore than they have to.) And she is hurt when Christians ask her when she is going to give up being a Jew (by that they mean the rituals that she does keep), because she says that being a Jew is as much a part of her as her skin is.

She (and her children since she is female) are/will be Jewish. I am sorry to see that she has chosen to not observe the Torah and believes in a false messiah. "Messianic Judaism" is about as valid as a form of Judaism as Hinduism is in my opinion. In other words it is not valid. She may feel comfortable with her Jewish heritage by keeping the Sabbath (does she really keep the Sabbath, or keep it in the Christian definition of it?), but in reality she is still Jewish, but very lost.

But I am straying off topic. She was born to a Jewish mother so she has no choice in the matter. She is a Jew, will always be a Jew. It is only a matter now, that she as a Jew, who has turned her back on the Torah has a different path then her Christian counterparts which may go to heaven for being righteous gentiles, but that is debatable, and unless you request I will not go into it.

I would like to present you however, with how a glimpse into the views she may get for abandoning the Torah. When a man or woman abandons Judaism for another religion all together (this may even be classified as if they join liberal Judaism which does not keep halacha) It says in a passage in the Or Zarua that Rabbenu Gershom sat shiva for his son, who had become a Christian. To sit "shiva" means immediately upon the burial of the departed, the first-degree relatives assume the status of avel (Hebrew: mourner). This state lasts for seven days, during which family members traditionally gather in one home and receive visitors.

On the first day, it is customary for the mourners not to eat their own food. Traditionally, the neighbors supply the first meal which is called the (סעודת הבראה Hebrew: "seudat havra'ah").

This means that Rabbenu Gershom mourned for his child who left Judaism, like he had died.

-Rabbi Elisha

[rebelishaulman]

Another topic that I forgot to mention is the fact that "she says that being a Jew is as much a part of her as her skin is." What most even assimilated Jews do not realize is that Judaism is a religion first. Although it is a peoplehood and culture, religion is the mist important thing. Following Torah is what is important. Not eating Jewish foods and using Yiddish phrases if you know what I mean.

[Grace Seeker]

She (and her children since she is female) are/will be Jewish. I am sorry to see that she has chosen to not observe the Torah and believes in a false messiah. "Messianic Judaism" is about as valid as a form of Judaism as Hinduism is in my opinion. In other words it is not valid. She may feel comfortable with her Jewish heritage by keeping the Sabbath (does she really keep the Sabbath, or keep it in the Christian definition of it?), but in reality she is still Jewish, but very lost.

But I am straying off topic. She was born to a Jewish mother so she has no choice in the matter. She is a Jew, will always be a Jew. It is only a matter now, that she as a Jew, who has turned her back on the Torah has a different path then her Christian counterparts which may go to heaven for being righteous gentiles, but that is debatable, and unless you request I will not go into it.

I would like to present you however, with how a glimpse into the views she may get for abandoning the Torah. When a man or woman abandons Judaism for another religion all together (this may even be classified as if they join liberal Judaism which does not keep halacha) It says in a passage in the Or Zarua that Rabbenu Gershom sat shiva for his son, who had become a Christian. To sit "shiva" means immediately upon the burial of the departed, the first-degree relatives assume the status of avel (Hebrew: mourner). This state lasts for seven days, during which family members traditionally gather in one home and receive visitors.

On the first day, it is customary for the mourners not to eat their own food. Traditionally, the neighbors supply the first meal which is called the (סעודת הבראה Hebrew: "seudat havra'ah").

This means that Rabbenu Gershom mourned for his child who left Judaism, like he had died.

-Rabbi Elisha

I get where you are coming from regarding treating it as a death. This is indeed how her family felt at first. Of course, over time, they have adjusted and her parents have chosen not to disown her, have accepted her husband and are connected with their grandkids.

Well, I have never been at her house for Sabbath. I know they keep it in the home on Friday night with the lighting of candles and prayers. I don't think they really keep it in the sense of doing no activity at all on Sabbath, because I know that the kids have gone out for school sports and play in them, and I would assume that include games or practices over that time.

The fact that the Jewish community views all offspring of female Jews as Jews must make for some interesting scenarios. At least I have always found it so. My great-great-great grandmother (mother's, mother's, mother's, mother's mother) was Jewish, so I guess that means that though I am also a Christian pastor the son of a a Christian pastor that I am also nonetheless Jewish. :D

[rebelishaulman]

I get where you are coming from regarding treating it as a death. This is indeed how her family felt at first. Of course, over time, they have adjusted and her parents have chosen not to disown her, have accepted her husband and are connected with their grandkids.

Well the halachic opinions differ on if it is worth destroying the connection since you can possibly some how influence the grandkids to observe Judaism if you stay in their lives since the grandkids are Jews.

Well, I have never been at her house for Sabbath. I know they keep it in the home on Friday night with the lighting of candles and prayers. I don't think they really keep it in the sense of doing no activity at all on Sabbath, because I know that the kids have gone out for school sports and play in them, and I would assume that include games or practices over that time.

They most likely do not keep the Sabbath but do some of the "traditions" of the Sabbath which probably is enough to fulfill her need to someone stay connected to her people.

The fact that the Jewish community views all offspring of female Jews as Jews must make for some interesting scenarios. At least I have always found it so. My great-great-great grandmother (mother's, mother's, mother's, mother's mother) was Jewish, so I guess that means that though I am also a Christian pastor the son of a a Christian pastor that I am also nonetheless Jewish. :D

It does play out to be interesting scenario's yet at the same time, the person who claims the great great grandma was Jewish and is connected through her by all mothers, must also have proof that the Rabbi's will accept to be recognized as a Jew. It is better in that situation to just convert to be safe. I bet there are a few Jews out there who by some miraculous luck on there mothers side are connected by mothers a few generations back and have no clue of there heritage.

[snakelegs]

this jewish woman who became a christian is still regarded as jewish by the jewish community and by halacha?
could she be buried in a jewish cemetery?

[Grace Seeker]

It does play out to be interesting scenario's yet at the same time, the person who claims the great great grandma was Jewish and is connected through her by all mothers, must also have proof that the Rabbi's will accept to be recognized as a Jew. It is better in that situation to just convert to be safe. I bet there are a few Jews out there who by some miraculous luck on there mothers side are connected by mothers a few generations back and have no clue of there heritage.

So, if I understand you correctly, a person who is born Jewish is Jewish whether they like it or not, even if they reject the faith, in the eyes of Judaism they cannot simply walk away from their faith, they are still Jewish.

And if someone is the child of such a person and that parent is female they too are Jewish, even if raised completely outside of the faith. But if that parent is male, then the child is no longer viewed as Jewish. Why the difference based on gender?

[rebelishaulman]

this jewish woman who became a christian is still regarded as jewish by the jewish community and by halacha?
could she be buried in a jewish cemetery?

In the scenario you ask, that would depend on the policy of the particular cemetery.

So, if I understand you correctly, a person who is born Jewish is Jewish whether they like it or not, even if they reject the faith, in the eyes of Judaism they cannot simply walk away from their faith, they are still Jewish.

Correct.

And if someone is the child of such a person and that parent is female they too are Jewish, even if raised completely outside of the faith. But if that parent is male, then the child is no longer viewed as Jewish. Why the difference based on gender?

The Torah does not specifically state anywhere that matrilineal descent should be used. There are passages in the Torah where it is understood that a child of a Jewish mother is Jewish, unlike the child of a Jewish father and Gentile mother. Another reason is that although the man is nessesary for the creation of a child, the mother carries the baby and gives birth. The examples in the Torah are:

You shall not intermarry with them; you shall not give your daughter to his son, and you shall not take his daughter for your son. For he will turn away your son from following Me, and they will worship the gods of others, and the wrath of the L-rd will be kindled against you, and He will quickly destroy you.
(Deuteronomy 7:3-4)

The word "he" is used here, not "she". So there is a prohibition on intermarriage and we can infer that No such concern is expressed about the child of a non-Jewish wife. From this, we infer that the child of a non-Jewish husband is Jewish (and can therefore be turned away from Judaism), but the child of a non-Jewish female spouse is not Jewish (and therefore turning away is not an issue).

Another example is that in Leviticus the son of an Israelite woman and an Egyptian man was considered an Israelite and Jew:

Now, the son of an Israelite woman and he was the son of an Egyptian man went out among the children of Israel, and they quarreled in the camp this son of the Israelite woman, and an Israelite man.
(Leviticus 24:10)

This man is considered a Jew according to Ramban; Torath Kohanim 24:235, based on several factors including his tribal affiliation and punishment for violating Jewish law I believe.

In the book of Ezra, the Jews returning to Israel vowed to put aside their non-Jewish wives and the children born to those wives. They could not have put aside those children if those children were Jews:

And Shechaniah, the son of Jehiel, of the sons of Elam, raised his voice and said to Ezra, "We have betrayed our G-d, and we have taken in foreign wives of the peoples of the land, but now there is hope for Israel concerning this. And now, let us make a covenant with our G-d to cast out all the wives and their offspring, by the counsel of the L-rd and those who hasten to [perform] the commandment of our G-d, and according to the Law it shall be done.
(Ezra 10:2-3)

That is why the children of Jewish mothers but gentile fathers are considered Jews, while the children of Non-Jewish mothers are not.

-Rabbi Elisha

[Grace Seeker]

Very thorough explanation as to how this view was arrived at.

But, again if I understand you rightly, even though by virture of having a maternal great-great-great-grandmother who was Jewish, you would not consider me Jewish today. At what point, how many generations would one continue to consider a child, grandchild, great-grandchild Jewish? I would have thought it would end with the first generation that, as you worded it above, "turned away". Is this not the case?

[rebelishaulman]

Very thorough explanation as to how this view was arrived at.

But, again if I understand you rightly, even though by virture of having a maternal great-great-great-grandmother who was Jewish, you would not consider me Jewish today. At what point, how many generations would one continue to consider a child, grandchild, great-grandchild Jewish? I would have thought it would end with the first generation that, as you worded it above, "turned away". Is this not the case?

There is no limit to the number of generations someone can trace back to find they are by some crazy scenario they are Jewish. However, it is on them to prove somehow that the relative was Jewish, which I am not very sure how they would do so. Of course the best scenario for this person who is interested into honoring his/her Jewish past, is conversion to be safe.

[Grace Seeker]

Thank-you. I can understand that. But my question was looking at it from the other side.


I understood you earlier to say that one would still view a child of a Jewish mother to be Jewish, even if that child walks away from the faith. How far down the family tree does this continue?

Does a Jewish grandmother view her grandchildren as Jewish, even if the daughter has turned away from the faith and the children have been raised in a different faith? Does the local Jewish community see them the same way as the grandmother would?

If so, how about great-grandchildren? This is what I meant by "For how many generations would one continue to consider a child, grandchild, great-grandchild Jewish?"

You don't consider me Jewish, and I don't expect you to. If my great-great-great grandmother was still alive, I don't think that she would view me as Jewish, even though she was. Or would she?

[rebelishaulman]

I understood you earlier to say that one would still view a child of a Jewish mother to be Jewish, even if that child walks away from the faith. How far down the family tree does this continue?

It continues forever.

Does a Jewish grandmother view her grandchildren as Jewish, even if the daughter has turned away from the faith and the children have been raised in a different faith? Does the local Jewish community see them the same way as the grandmother would?

It depends if the community views the child under the lense of Jewish law (Halacha). There are opinions that a parent should not sit shiva, mourn, and consider the child dead if it is a daughter because her children will still be Jewish and a Jewish influence of the grandparents can possibly save them from abandonment of Torah in the family line. A son to, could convert and by some chance marry a Jew who is a Jew by halacha at least.

If so, how about great-grandchildren? This is what I meant by "For how many generations would one continue to consider a child, grandchild, great-grandchild Jewish?"

When it starts becoming a "great grandparents" thing, it is tough to prove. But the person is still Jewish if it is true.

You don't consider me Jewish, and I don't expect you to. If my great-great-great grandmother was still alive, I don't think that she would view me as Jewish, even though she was. Or would she?

It is not of concern if she would view you as a Jew. You would still be a Jew if you could connect through females all the way to a Jew.

[Grace Seeker]

It is not of concern if she would view you as a Jew. You would still be a Jew if you could connect through females all the way to a Jew.

LOL I probably shouldn't think it so funny, because I know it is serious for you.

My family is really big on geneology. My father, uncle, and grandmother on my father's side all love it. They can trace my family back as far as 1735. But it is on my mom's side that we really have all the details going back as far as 1619, when another of my great, great, (I don't know how many) grandmothers came as a single woman literally "swept" off the streets of London and sent to America to be the first marriage in Jamestown. Family legend has it that she was a red-headed Jew, but I can't prove that. And besides that is my mother's father's family.

But, my great-great-great-grandmother Rebeccah Houser, no problem. Her parents were Mordechai and Margalit Goldstamm who came here from Germany in 1842, and she was born 2 years later. And she married my great-great-great grandfather Aaron Houser in 1862. I remember that easily because my mom (Margaret) was named after her own great-grandmother who was Rebeccah's daughter. And as a kid growing up my dad, whenever I complained about my name (I was named after my dad), said that they always could have gone with Mordecai. It wasn't till I began to do some geneology stuff myself as an adult that I discovered the actual spelling of it was Mordechai, not that I would have relished either when I was a kid. When our children were born my wife wanted to name our first daughter after one of her cousins Becky, Rachel, and Sarah. And since I knew that Rebeccah was a family name, we just went with that one, only left off the "h" and called her Becca.

I don't know when they left Judaism, probably either my great-great-great grandmother herself, or her daughter Margaret. There is a listing in my great-grandmother's family Bible that was passed down to my mom that lists Rebeccah's bat mitzvah at the age of 12 in Cornell, NY; nothing for my great-great-great grandfather accept his date of birth, marriage and death, and also nothing for my great-great grandmother Margaret. But then both a birthdate and a baptism date is given for my great grandmother Elise in 1887. (That's another interesting name story. I guess her given name is actually Elisheva, after an aunt, but she changed it as an adult. Curiously there are no confirmation dates for anyone, just birth's, baptism, marriages, and date of death. My great-great-great grandmother Rebecca being the only exception to that. And we don't even have a birthdate or anything for Mordechai and Margalit, just their dates of death.

Any reason why my great-grandmother would indicate the location of her grandmother's bat mitzvah, but not record the location for baptisms or marriages or deaths, just births?

[rebelishaulman]

Sounds like a very interesting family history. With the name "Mordechai" in your family, a Jew. The name "Mordecai" (

) is explained by the Rabbis as a compound of

, the Aramaic form of

(= "pure myrrh"). Mordecai is identified with thebearer of that name who, according to Ezra ii. 2 and Neh. vii. 7, returned with Zerubbabel from the Captivity; and as in both passages "Mordecai" is followed by "Bilshan," the Rabbis consider that "Mordecai" and "Bilshan" were the names of one man, the latter name having been given him on account of his knowledge of many languages. According to another opinion (deriving

from

). Mordecai is identical with the prophet Malachi, the latter name having been given to him after he became viceroy. But all the Rabbis agree that Mordecai was a prophet and that he prophesied in the second year of Darius (Meg. 10b, 15a; Ḥul. 139b).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/pages/JG9GGG7V.jpg
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/pages/JH9HHH8U.jpg

Either way, it sounds like you are not Jewish, but certainly have roots in some areas of Jews, who most likely abandoned there faith and ceased following Torah, for reasons that I obviously do not know.

[Grace Seeker]

Either way, it sounds like you are not Jewish, but certainly have roots in some areas of Jews, who most likely abandoned there faith and ceased following Torah, for reasons that I obviously do not know.

Darn. And I was so hoping. :D

So, what is the reason that I am not? Because one of my grandmothers walked away from her faith and subsequently everyone in the family has been raised Christian? Or was there another break that you saw, for Rebeccah (the one for whom we have a bat mitzvah date) is my mother's, mother's, mother's, mother's mother.

[rebelishaulman]

Darn. And I was so hoping. :D

So, what is the reason that I am not? Because one of my grandmothers walked away from her faith and subsequently everyone in the family has been raised Christian? Or was there another break that you saw, for Rebeccah (the one for home we have a bat mitzvah date) is my mother's, mother's, mother's, mother's mother.

Maybe I did not do my best to follow. I didn't realize that Rebbecah was connected to you through you mother's, mother's, mother's, mother's mother. If true, then you could very well be Jewish according to halacha.

[Grace Seeker]

Maybe I did not do my best to follow. I didn't realize that Rebbecah was connected to you through you mother's, mother's, mother's, mother's mother. If true, then you could very well be Jewish according to halacha.

Well, it is ok if I am not. I don't think I will lose any sleep over it. Does the line end with me and my brother? Since my mother had no daughters, does this mean that her children are Jewish, but her grandchildren are not Jewish?

[rebelishaulman]

Well, it is ok if I am not. I don't think I will lose any sleep over it. Does the line end with me and my brother? Since my mother had no daughters, does this mean that her children are Jewish, but her grandchildren are not Jewish?

It seems that if your story and conclusion are completely accurate, then yes, it ends with you and your brother.

[thirdwatch512]

this jewish woman who became a christian is still regarded as jewish by the jewish community and by halacha?
could she be buried in a jewish cemetery?

i think it depends on the denomination. like reform jews made the decision in i think 2002 that no one is considered jewish unless they are practicing, or something like that. that might not be correct, but it was something along that nature.

[snakelegs]

In the scenario you ask, that would depend on the policy of the particular cemetery.

i don't think it would be up to the cemetery - what does the halacha say about it? can a jew who became a christian be buried in a jewish cemetery?
this is the first time i am reading anything like this - that a jewish woman who becomes christian is still considered a jew by jewish law.

[Grace Seeker]

A woman who is not a Jew converts to Judaism. At the time she has one adult child no longer living at home. She has one young pre-school child living at home. She is pregnant with a third. And later in life has a fourth child. Given that the child of a Jewish mother is him/herself a Jew also, does that apply to each of these children?

How would it change if the father divorced the mother, and moved away taking the children with him and none of them were raised as Jews?

[rebelishaulman]

A woman who is not a Jew converts to Judaism. At the time she has one adult child no longer living at home. She has one young pre-school child living at home. She is pregnant with a third. And later in life has a fourth child. Given that the child of a Jewish mother is him/herself a Jew also, does that apply to each of these children?

How would it change if the father divorced the mother, and moved away taking the children with him and none of them were raised as Jews?

Based on that the conversion is valid. The child who she is pregnant with when she converts, well there is a halachic debate on if the child is Jewish or not based on the second he/she is born, my belief is that the child is Jewish. The 4th baby is Jewish also. The first and second are not Jewish. Since the last two are born Jews, it doesn't matter how they are raised.

this is the first time i am reading anything like this - that a jewish woman who becomes christian is still considered a jew by jewish law.

Well of course. Many Orthodox Jews view liberal/reform Judaism as a foreign religion, certainly not Judaism so therefore, they are practicing a separate religion from Judaism as well you could say. They remain Jewish.

i don't think it would be up to the cemetery - what does the halacha say about it? can a jew who became a christian be buried in a jewish cemetery?

The answer is it probably it depends. Was this a person who truly rebelled against G-d? Was it more likely an emotionally broken/weak individual who missionaries will prey on? There is no mourning for an apostate Jew according to halacha however.

I will look up the halacha for you, but later, I am sort of busy right now, and Shabbat is very soon. Is it an urgent matter for you to know, since requests on burials and topics involving death are the ones that need an answer right away.

[Malaikah]

There are kabbalistic answers for this as well Tractate Sanhedrin 97a, which was redacted approximately 1,500 years ago states, "The world will exist for six thousand years and in the seven-thousandth year, it will be destroyed." An important Kabbalistic work, the Sefer HaTemunah, written in the first century, writes that there were 6 cycles of 7,000 years each which preceded our present cycle of creation. This would explain the finding of ancient fossils of the dinosaurs! Who knows!

Can you explain what kabbalistic, Sefer HaTemunah and Tractate Sanhedrin mena please?

Also, you Holy book was given to Moses right? Did the other prophets after him add to it? How do you know about the Prophets who came after him?:?

[rebelishaulman]

Can you explain what kabbalistic, Sefer HaTemunah and Tractate Sanhedrin mena please?

"Tractate Sanhedrin" is a book of the Talmud.

"Kabbalistic" is a term used for Jewish mystisism. It is so complicated, it is dangerous to learn it if you do not have a huge amount of wisdom, knowledge and are to young.

The ancient mystical treatise called "Sefer Hat'munah" - the Book of the Picture. The "Sefer Hatemunah" teaches that there is a cosmic shmita cycle which effects the creation and duration of existence.

This is very deep stuff and many authorities say that Kabbalah is so complicated dealing with such deep topics, that it should be illegal for anyone under 40 to learn it because they may get the wrong idea of it, or not understand and come to a different conclusion.

Also, you Holy book was given to Moses right? Did the other prophets after him add to it? How do you know about the Prophets who came after him?

The Torah was given to Moshe from G-d at Mount Sinai. Other prophets completed books which now put together are called the Tanakh.

[Malaikah]

Thanks.

As for the mystic books, what authority do they have? Who wrote them?

[جوري]

"Tractate Sanhedrin" is a book of the Talmud.

"Kabbalistic" is a term used for Jewish mystisism. It is so complicated, it is dangerous to learn it if you do not have a huge amount of wisdom, knowledge and are to young.

This is very deep stuff and many authorities say that Kabbalah is so complicated dealing with such deep topics, that it should be illegal for anyone under 40 to learn it because they may get the wrong idea of it, or not understand and come to a different conclusion.



.

Amazing... how are Madonna, Britney Spears and demi Moore handling the wisdom of Kabalah according to actual Jewish Kabalists?..........
Do tell us what it is about Kabalah that makes it so profound and yet appealing to young hollywood stars?

[rebelishaulman]

Thanks.

As for the mystic books, what authority do they have? Who wrote them?

According to most segments of Jewry, this esoteric Kabbalah dates from Adam. But was put together on paper by our wisest of sages. As for the authority. Depends what Rabbi or minhag (customs) you follow, to see how muc influence Kabbalah has into the regional customs. Snce Jewish Law encourages to keep the customs of your house.

Amazing... how are Madonna, Britney Spears and demi Moore handling the wisdom of Kabalah according to actual Jewish Kabalists?..........
Do tell us what it is about Kabalah that makes it so profound and yet appealing to young hollywood stars?

Excuse me? Is that a serious question. The people who teach these celebrities, non-Jews, and others Kabalah who have no knowledge to be able to actually hold an understanding of the topic have been condemned by all of our head Rabbi's and gedolim.

Read about their leader:

Philip S. Berg is the charismatic founder and leader of a quasi-Jewish cult functioning under the name of "Research Centre for Kabbalah." It has branches in New York City, Los Angeles, Toronto, London, a few other cities.

Berg portrays himself as an orthodox rabbi and proclaims his "Kabbalah Centre" to be a Jewish orthodox institution. IN his youth he did study at an orthodox Yeshiva in Brooklyn NY, and it seems that he was ordained.

Berg claims to have a doctorate (all his books go under the name "Dr. Philip S. Berg"). In some of his books he alleges to have a doctorate in "comparative religion," while another source claims his doctorate to be in "jurisprudence in biblical law." When personally confronted about the discrepancies, and questioned about his alleged doctorate, he admitted (in a published interview) that in fact -he has no academic degree at all - and that his alleged "doctorate" is "part of his smichah (ordination)" … Everyone knows, of course, that there is no such thing.

For his public lectures Berg advertises himself invariably as "the greatest Kabbalist in the world;" "the world's foremost authority on the Kabbalah;" "a living Kabbalist and the rarest of teachers;" or other such flamboyant terms of self-aggrandizement.

Outside of his own Centre and circle of followers, neither the academic nor the Jewish religious worlds know anything about him except for the anomalies of his centers. They have absolutely no regard for him, his teachings, writings or activities. In fact, he is universally condemned by both the orthodox rabbinate and contemporary schools of Jewish mysticism in Israel, the USA and elsewhere, as a charlatan.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/ka...abbalah29.html

[Philosopher]

Do Jews believe the world is 6000 years old?

[Malaikah]

According to most segments of Jewry, this esoteric Kabbalah dates from Adam. But was put together on paper by our wisest of sages. As for the authority. Depends what Rabbi or minhag (customs) you follow, to see how muc influence Kabbalah has into the regional customs. Snce Jewish Law encourages to keep the customs of your house.

Wow, that sure is old. :uuh:

How and when were they compiled, and how was their authenticity guaranteed? It must be hard to make sure something that old is for real.

Also, you mentioned it isn't fit for young minds to read, why is that? What kind of stuff does it talk about?

[rebelishaulman]

Wow, that sure is old. :uuh:

How and when were they compiled, and how was their authenticity guaranteed? It must be hard to make sure something that old is for real.

Also, you mentioned it isn't fit for young minds to read, why is that? What kind of stuff does it talk about?

To tell you the truth, I am not learned in it at all and only know basics. My expertise is much more Talmud and Torah then mystical things as is my school of thought. One must be a very learned Torah scholar to learn Kabbalah however, Because of the interpretive liberties taken by kabbalistic thinkers, and the possible heresies to which they may easily lead, study of Kabbalah was traditionally restricted to a select few Rabbis and Torah scholars.

To learn more about Kabbalah and different things read the wikipedia page, it seems that it is edited pretty accurate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah

Do Jews believe the world is 6000 years old?

Most observant ones do. But this does not rule out that the world was not created in a mature state since we believe all the animals, plants and Adam - Eve were created in mature states.

[Philosopher]

To tell you the truth, I am not learned in it at all and only know basics. My expertise is much more Talmud and Torah then mystical things as is my school of thought. One must be a very learned Torah scholar to learn Kabbalah however, Because of the interpretive liberties taken by kabbalistic thinkers, and the possible heresies to which they may easily lead, study of Kabbalah was traditionally restricted to a select few Rabbis and Torah scholars.

To learn more about Kabbalah and different things read the wikipedia page, it seems that it is edited pretty accurate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah



Most observant ones do.

Thanks.

What is the Jewish response to the notion that science indicates that the world is billions of years old?

[rebelishaulman]

Thanks.

What is the Jewish response to the notion that science indicates that the world is billions of years old?

That the world was created in a mature form.

A pefect example that I love is Adam. Our sages tell us that he had the body and maturity of a 20-year-old man. Now, let us imagine Adam going for a medical exam a day after he was created. The receptionist asks for his age and he answers: “one day”. “You must be kidding me,” she would reply. “You seem to be at least 20 years old!”

They are both right. Adam is saying how old he really is, while the receptionist is estimating his age based on “scientific proof.”

[Philosopher]

That the world was created in a mature form.

A pefect example that I love is Adam. Our sages tell us that he had the body and maturity of a 20-year-old man. Now, let us imagine Adam going for a medical exam a day after he was created. The receptionist asks for his age and he answers: “one day”. “You must be kidding me,” she would reply. “You seem to be at least 20 years old!”

They are both right. Adam is saying how old he really is, while the receptionist is estimating his age based on “scientific proof.”

But there is concrete scientific evidence that the creatures lived more tha 6000 years ago. The fossils of dinosaurs are millions of years old. Also, your post indicates that you dont agree with the theory of evolution. Is that true? Science uses empirical evidence. Your analogy with the receptionist is flawed.

[rebelishaulman]

But there is concrete scientific evidence that the creatures lived more tha 6000 years ago. The fossils of dinosaurs are millions of years old. Also, your post indicates that you dont agree with the theory of evolution. Is that true? Science uses empirical evidence. Your analogy with the receptionist is flawed.

The dating you say proves your point does not.

Carbon-14 dating rests on two assumptions. (a)that the amount of carbon-14 in the atmosphere has always been constant, and (b) its rate of decay has always been constant.

Neither of those assumptions has been proven or close to proven. And sicne the world was created in six days, who knows how the cosmic radiation in the atmoshphere was fluctuating then.

There is another issue that makes the carbon dating useless. When the world was create, it already had an age. In other words, when Adam for instance was created, he was an adult, even though he was one day old; there were fully grown trees; the sun's light already reached the earth; an entire world existed, full-blown and OLD. How old was the world at the moment it was created? I dont know -- it doesnt say. But we do know that it didnt sdtart fomr scratch. And so lets say someone would chop down a tree 1 week after it was created and find maybe 50 rigns insude - would that prove that the tree wa 50 years old? Nope - it owuld only prove that when it was created it was created as an adult, 50 year old tree.

[Philosopher]

The dating you say proves your point does not.

Carbon-14 dating rests on two assumptions. (a)that the amount of carbon-14 in the atmosphere has always been constant, and (b) its rate of decay has always been constant.

Neither of those assumptions has been proven or close to proven. And sicne the world was created in six days, who knows how the cosmic radiation in the atmoshphere was fluctuating then.

There is another issue that makes the carbon dating useless. When the world was create, it already had an age. In other words, when Adam for instance was created, he was an adult, even though he was one day old; there were fully grown trees; the sun's light already reached the earth; an entire world existed, full-blown and OLD. How old was the world at the moment it was created? I dont know -- it doesnt say. But we do know that it didnt sdtart fomr scratch. And so lets say someone would chop down a tree 1 week after it was created and find maybe 50 rigns insude - would that prove that the tree wa 50 years old? Nope - it owuld only prove that when it was created it was created as an adult, 50 year old tree.

I suppose you disagree with the Big Bang then?

[snakelegs]

Well of course. Many Orthodox Jews view liberal/reform Judaism as a foreign religion, certainly not Judaism so therefore, they are practicing a separate religion from Judaism as well you could say. They remain Jewish.

The answer is it probably it depends. Was this a person who truly rebelled against G-d? Was it more likely an emotionally broken/weak individual who missionaries will prey on? There is no mourning for an apostate Jew according to halacha however.

I will look up the halacha for you, but later, I am sort of busy right now, and Shabbat is very soon. Is it an urgent matter for you to know, since requests on burials and topics involving death are the ones that need an answer right away.

well, this isn't a good analogy. liberal/reform jews may be seen as misguided, but they have not left judaism or taken another religion, whereas a jew who becomes a christian has become an apostate and i don't understand how you can say they would still be regarded as jewish??? are you sure????
the burial part is not an urgent matter for me at all, i was just wondering in relation to my basic question: how does a jew who has become a christian remain a jew?

[snakelegs]

Excuse me? Is that a serious question. The people who teach these celebrities, non-Jews, and others Kabalah who have no knowledge to be able to actually hold an understanding of the topic have been condemned by all of our head Rabbi's and gedolim.

Read about their leader:

Philip S. Berg is the charismatic founder and leader of a quasi-Jewish cult functioning under the name of "Research Centre for Kabbalah." It has branches in New York City, Los Angeles, Toronto, London, a few other cities.

Berg portrays himself as an orthodox rabbi and proclaims his "Kabbalah Centre" to be a Jewish orthodox institution. IN his youth he did study at an orthodox Yeshiva in Brooklyn NY, and it seems that he was ordained.

Berg claims to have a doctorate (all his books go under the name "Dr. Philip S. Berg"). In some of his books he alleges to have a doctorate in "comparative religion," while another source claims his doctorate to be in "jurisprudence in biblical law." When personally confronted about the discrepancies, and questioned about his alleged doctorate, he admitted (in a published interview) that in fact -he has no academic degree at all - and that his alleged "doctorate" is "part of his smichah (ordination)" … Everyone knows, of course, that there is no such thing.

For his public lectures Berg advertises himself invariably as "the greatest Kabbalist in the world;" "the world's foremost authority on the Kabbalah;" "a living Kabbalist and the rarest of teachers;" or other such flamboyant terms of self-aggrandizement.

Outside of his own Centre and circle of followers, neither the academic nor the Jewish religious worlds know anything about him except for the anomalies of his centers. They have absolutely no regard for him, his teachings, writings or activities. In fact, he is universally condemned by both the orthodox rabbinate and contemporary schools of Jewish mysticism in Israel, the USA and elsewhere, as a charlatan.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/ka...abbalah29.html

i agree with you on the kabbalah center. it's all about rabbi berg and from what i've seen, their material is on a very superficial level. it's well suited for being "trendy".

[rebelishaulman]

I suppose you disagree with the Big Bang then?

Interesting question, since I am a believer in the Torah's creation story do you believe it possible to believe in the big bang theory to? Do you think it is 100% a truth?

well, this isn't a good analogy. liberal/reform jews may be seen as misguided, but they have not left judaism or taken another religion, whereas a jew who becomes a christian has become an apostate and i don't understand how you can say they would still be regarded as jewish??? are you sure????

Really? They have not taken another religion? Judaism, is centralized around the Torah, and the covanent with G-d to follow his laws. Therefore, anyone who does not follow the laws is still a Jew because they have been born into this eternal covanent. Now, many of the liberal Jewish movements stress that following the laws are not binding. Some schools of Christianity believe the Torah to be the literal word of G-d, while Reform/Liberal Judaism says it may be divine, but belief it is from G-d is not required, nor is belief in G-d requred! If you did not know, the Talmud states believing in many gods (trinity) is better then belief in no G-d.

I am not sure if you understand that Judaism is much more then a religion of beliefs. The best explanantion I can show you is a very good one I read: Judaism maintains that one born Jewish or one who has converted to Judaism retains his or her status as a Jew forever. One who converts to another religion or is an atheist is considered to be a Jew not in good religious standing. How religious one is, in this sense, is only important in one's status in Jewish law. For example, a person denying the Jewish principles of faith may be considered a heretic, while still considered Jewish.

You can still be Jewish and be an apostate Jew. It is also worth noting that Reconstructionism does not require any belief in a deity, and that certain popular Reform prayer books such as Gates of Prayer offer some services without mention of Hashem.

the burial part is not an urgent matter for me at all, i was just wondering in relation to my basic question: how does a jew who has become a christian remain a jew?

Well I will try to find the answer for you though I doubt there is one single agreed upon halacha for a Jew who converts to Christianity who actually wants to be buried in a Jewish cemetery, since why be buried with the people who you believe are in for "eternal hell".

[Philosopher]

Interesting question, since I am a believer in the Torah's creation story do you believe it possible to believe in the big bang theory to? Do you think it is 100% a truth?

There is more scientific evidence backing the Big Bang theory than the Torah's creation story. What is your opinion on that?

[rebelishaulman]

There is more scientific evidence backing the Big Bang theory than the Torah's creation story. What is your opinion on that?

Okay. When I walk outside of my house, there seems to be more evidence that the world is flat instead of round.

[Philosopher]

Okay. When I walk outside of my house, there seems to be more evidence that the world is flat instead of round.

That made no sense at all? Do you know anything about the scientific method?

[rebelishaulman]

That made no sense at all? Do you know anything about the scientific method?

How did it make no sense at all? More evidence on the side of the big bang does not make it a truth. Or do you have concrete facts on your side?

[Philosopher]

How did it make no sense at all? More evidence on the side of the big bang does not make it a truth. Or do you have concrete facts on your side?

I am not here to debate. This thread is for asking questions on Judaism and I am grateful for your answers.

[rebelishaulman]

I am not here to debate. This thread is for asking questions on Judaism and I am grateful for your answers.

I am providing a Jewish opinion for you. There are certainly more then mine out there. The Big Bang and Redshift Theories are not scientific laws or laws of physics. A scientific law must be 100% correct.

[Grace Seeker]

Actually, it made perfect sense. Using the scientific method one cannot test for the Big Bang theory for one aspect of using the scientific method is to use repeatedable experiments. That hardly works with things like the Big Bang. One other aspect of the scientific method is to learn through observable phenomemna. Now, people in the field of astronomy have many ways of observing the universe, but the number of ways and the detail of their instrumentation just improves their observational technique to produce more data. But it doesn't really give us a way to test, only to have more complete data on which to found our untestable hypothese.

Going outside and observing the earth is the same sort of thing. By standing in one point of time and space we make observations, perhaps even getting a set of binoculars or a telescope to see farther and bring in more data. But until one is able to observe from more than just that one point of space, one is stuck with one's hypothese, not proof. And until one can observe from more than one point in time, one is also stuck with one's hypothese, not proof. I would submit that if the argument is for an old earth, verses a new earth, then one must be able to make observations from actually being back in time, not simply of things that one has merely hypothesized are from back in time, be it fossil records or starlight.

And I happen to have no argument with the Big Bang, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate the beauty of the Rabbi's simple response to your question.

[Philosopher]

Is it possible to self-teach modern Hebrew?

[rebelishaulman]

Is it possible to self-teach modern Hebrew?

Tough if English is your first language. If you know Arabic it will be considerably easier because how close the languages are. A computer program would probably help considerably.

[Philosopher]

Tough if English is your first language. If you know Arabic it will be considerably easier because how close the languages are. A computer program would probably help considerably.

Do you know any good programs that you would recommend me? I dont want to be an expert in Hebrew, I just want to know enough to have conversations.

[rebelishaulman]

Do you know any good programs that you would recommend me? I dont want to be an expert in Hebrew, I just want to know enough to have conversations.

To tell you the truth I do not have much experience with these programs. However, "Rosseta Stone" seems to be good:

With Rosetta Stone, you will learn Hebrew the way you learned your own native language, without translation or memorization. Native speakers, real-life images, speech recognition and fully interactive software teach you like you learned your first language—naturally.

Rosetta Stone is self-contained and intuitive to use. There are no complicated lists to memorize or handbooks to read. With Dynamic Immersion™, you can start learning immediately. Join NASA, Fortune 500® executives, U.S. diplomats and millions of learners worldwide in discovering the fastest way to learn Hebrew.

Every CD-ROM purchase is backed by our unconditional 6-month money back guarantee.

http://www.rosettastone.com/en/indiv...nguages/hebrew

If it ends up not working out, I assume they will stay faithful on there garuntee to give you your money back, and 6 months seems like more then enough time to decide if it is right for you.

A few free online sites that could help are:

http://www.learn-hebrew.co.il/
http://foundationstone.com.au/OnlineHebrewTutorial.html
http://foundationstone.com.au/
http://www.hebrew-verbs.co.il/

[Philosopher]

To tell you the truth I do not have much experience with these programs. However, "Rosseta Stone" seems to be good:

With Rosetta Stone, you will learn Hebrew the way you learned your own native language, without translation or memorization. Native speakers, real-life images, speech recognition and fully interactive software teach you like you learned your first language—naturally.

Rosetta Stone is self-contained and intuitive to use. There are no complicated lists to memorize or handbooks to read. With Dynamic Immersion™, you can start learning immediately. Join NASA, Fortune 500® executives, U.S. diplomats and millions of learners worldwide in discovering the fastest way to learn Hebrew.

Every CD-ROM purchase is backed by our unconditional 6-month money back guarantee.

http://www.rosettastone.com/en/indiv...nguages/hebrew

If it ends up not working out, I assume they will stay faithful on there garuntee to give you your money back, and 6 months seems like more then enough time to decide if it is right for you.

A few free online sites that could help are:

http://www.learn-hebrew.co.il/
http://foundationstone.com.au/OnlineHebrewTutorial.html
http://foundationstone.com.au/
http://www.hebrew-verbs.co.il/

Thanks!

[snakelegs]

Really? They have not taken another religion? Judaism, is centralized around the Torah, and the covanent with G-d to follow his laws. Therefore, anyone who does not follow the laws is still a Jew because they have been born into this eternal covanent. Now, many of the liberal Jewish movements stress that following the laws are not binding. Some schools of Christianity believe the Torah to be the literal word of G-d, while Reform/Liberal Judaism says it may be divine, but belief it is from G-d is not required, nor is belief in G-d requred! If you did not know, the Talmud states believing in many gods (trinity) is better then belief in no G-d.

I am not sure if you understand that Judaism is much more then a religion of beliefs. The best explanantion I can show you is a very good one I read: Judaism maintains that one born Jewish or one who has converted to Judaism retains his or her status as a Jew forever. One who converts to another religion or is an atheist is considered to be a Jew not in good religious standing. How religious one is, in this sense, is only important in one's status in Jewish law. For example, a person denying the Jewish principles of faith may be considered a heretic, while still considered Jewish.

You can still be Jewish and be an apostate Jew. It is also worth noting that Reconstructionism does not require any belief in a deity, and that certain popular Reform prayer books such as Gates of Prayer offer some services without mention of Hashem.




Well I will try to find the answer for you though I doubt there is one single agreed upon halacha for a Jew who converts to Christianity who actually wants to be buried in a Jewish cemetery, since why be buried with the people who you believe are in for "eternal hell".

no need to find the answer about the cemetery - it would've just served as proof of acceptance, but as you say, would be completely unlikely to arise in the first place.
i am aware that judaism is more than just a system of religious beliefs. it is a people, but not a race.
but how a former jew, who is now a christian can still be seen as jewish, is something i just can't grasp. i must say, you've really thrown me with this one!
so are the jews for jesus right when they say they are jews?
EDIT: well i have thought of something. suppose there is a jewish community. one of the members becomes a christian and they all know it. when they die, their relatives want them buried in the jewish cemetary.

[snakelegs]

Is it possible to self-teach modern Hebrew?

i taught myself hebrew more than 3 decades ago. i can't speak it very well because of lack of experience, but i can read it well enough to read newspapers and novels.
you will find that it is really quite an easy language. most words can be reduced to a root of 3 letters, and once you've learned the root, you can easily figure out the meaning from the context.
i am convinced that, in its simplicity, it is the most beautiful language in the world.
good luck to you.

[Philosopher]

i taught myself hebrew more than 3 decades ago. i can't speak it very well because of lack of experience, but i can read it well enough to read newspapers and novels.
you will find that it is really quite an easy language. most words can be reduced to a root of 3 letters, and once you've learned the root, you can easily figure out the meaning from the context.
i am convinced that, in its simplicity, it is the most beautiful language in the world.
good luck to you.

Did you learn to read or speak it? Also, what programs did u use?

Thanks.

[snakelegs]

because i taught myself and had no one to speak with, i never learned how to speak. so i have almost no experience in using the language just reading it.
there wasn't much available at the time i learned. i used mostly the ulpan books from israel. the ulpan method was a method of teaching a mixed group to speak hebrew in a hurry - it is done all in hebrew. it was designed to meet the needs of absorbing immigrants in israel as quickly as possible. i think ulpans are still used for this purpose.
now there is much material easily available. the rabbi has given you some good sources.
it's a beautiful language - it even looks beautiful!

[Philosopher]

because i taught myself and had no one to speak with, i never learned how to speak. so i have almost no experience in using the language just reading it.
there wasn't much available at the time i learned. i used mostly the ulpan books from israel. the ulpan method was a method of teaching a mixed group to speak hebrew in a hurry - it is done all in hebrew. it was designed to meet the needs of absorbing immigrants in israel as quickly as possible. i think ulpans are still used for this purpose.
now there is much material easily available. the rabbi has given you some good sources.
it's a beautiful language - it even looks beautiful!

What are Rabbis doing in this forum?

[snakelegs]

once rebelishaulman signed off as rabbi, so i assume he is one.

[rebelishaulman]

so are the jews for jesus right when they say they are jews?
EDIT: well i have thought of something. suppose there is a jewish community. one of the members becomes a christian and they all know it. when they die, their relatives want them buried in the jewish cemetary.

The majority of J4Js's members are not Jewish. I will also continue to make looking the cemetary thing up a priority.

What are Rabbis doing in this forum?

I go on many religious message boards to clear up myths about Judaism.

[rebelishaulman]

no need to find the answer about the cemetery - it would've just served as proof of acceptance, but as you say, would be completely unlikely to arise in the first place.

In Iggerot Moshe (Y.D. Vol. 1, no. 235) R. Moshe Feinstein ruled that a Jewish women who had converted to Christian Science has the status of a mumar and we don’t consider the possibility that maybe before her death she repented. Hence, according to R. Moshe, she should not be buried in a Jewish cemetery.

Nevertheless, he agreed as far as the preparation of her body for burial is concerned that it, as well as the actual burial, be carried out according to halacha. He concludes by noting that once she has already been buried her body may be removed and re-buried in a Jewish cemetery since her first burial was an atonement (kappara).

This should not be done until after a period of 12 months have elapsed from the time of the first burial. If however the family is humiliated, the body may be transferred immediately.

R. Aharon Walkin (Resp. Z’kan Aharon Vol. 2 (Y.D.) no. 80-82) also ruled that a Jew who converted may not be buried in a Jewish cemetery. In the particular case in question there were some indications that the individual regretted the conversion, but R. Walkin maintained that there was not sufficient evidence of repentance.

See also R. Herzog’s article in Noam Vol. 2, pp. 1-13; Resp. Divrei Malkiel Vol. 3, no. 87; Resp. Pri Hasadeh Vol. 4, no. 51.

The Chatam Sofer wrote that in the case of a mumar kaddish should be recited for 12 not 11 months. (Y.D. Tzitz Eliezer Vol. 5, no. 43).

R. Gedalya Felder in Yesodei Yeshurun (Vol. 1, p. 393) explains that although kaddish may be recited on behalf of a mumar, one does not mourn his death. The presence of kaddish and absence of mourning both help provide a kappara for the mumar.

In the Sefer Chasidim we find: “A Jew who converted and died is not mourned nor eulogized” (no. 1908; see Mekor Chesed; Resp. Lev Avraham no. 138.). However according to the Tur (O.C. 547) and others the customs of mourning (Kriyah, shiva, etc.) are observed unless the deceased was a mumar l’hachis. In most instances this is not the case.

[Philosopher]

How many volumes is an actual Talmud? Do Rabbis memorize the Talmud? Is there an original version (not abridged) version of the Talmud online?

[rebelishaulman]

How many volumes is an actual Talmud? Do Rabbis memorize the Talmud? Is there an original version (not abridged) version of the Talmud online?

You do not memorize the Talmud. You study it, and learn it in depth. The Talmud is attacked by many anti-Jewish links so be careful what you read about it. There are versions of the Talmud online that have actually had the text altered by these people who hate Jews!

Here is the best link to read the Talmud although they are still trying to complete the entire Talmu online.

A good description is: A page number in the Talmud refers to a double-sided page, known as a daf; each daf has two amudim labeled א and ב, sides A and B. The referencing by daf is relatively recent and dates from the early Talmud printings of the 17th century. Earlier rabbinic literature generally only refers to the tractate or chapters within a tractate. Nowadays, reference is made in format [Tractate daf a/b] (e.g. Berachot 23b). In the Vilna edition of the Talmud there are 5,894 folio pages.

Online Talmud:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...talmudtoc.html

[Philosopher]

You do not memorize the Talmud. You study it, and learn it in depth. The Talmud is attacked by many anti-Jewish links so be careful what you read about it. There are versions of the Talmud online that have actually had the text altered by these people who hate Jews!

Here is the best link to read the Talmud although they are still trying to complete the entire Talmu online.

A good description is: A page number in the Talmud refers to a double-sided page, known as a daf; each daf has two amudim labeled א and ב, sides A and B. The referencing by daf is relatively recent and dates from the early Talmud printings of the 17th century. Earlier rabbinic literature generally only refers to the tractate or chapters within a tractate. Nowadays, reference is made in format [Tractate daf a/b] (e.g. Berachot 23b). In the Vilna edition of the Talmud there are 5,894 folio pages.

Online Talmud:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...talmudtoc.html

Yes, I know what you're talking about altering the Talmud by anti-semites. In David Duke's website, he claims that the Talmud said that Jesus fornicated with his donkey. The actual name was not "Jesus" but if I remember correctly, "Balaam." Is Jesus and Balaam the same person in the Talmud?

Also, how long did it take u to study the Talmud?

[rebelishaulman]

Yes, I know what you're talking about altering the Talmud by anti-semites. In David Duke's website, he claims that the Talmud said that Jesus fornicated with his donkey. The actual name was not "Jesus" but if I remember correctly, "Balaam." Is Jesus and Balaam the same person in the Talmud?

Also, how long did it take u to study the Talmud?

The most effective way to study Talmud is to take the Daf Yomi cycle. This is where you study one page of Talmud a day. One cycle takes about 7 years, 5 months.

Here is some info on it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daf_Yomi
http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/dafyomi/
http://www.dafyomi.org/

These are refutations of the anti-semites claims on the Talmud:

http://talmud.faithweb.com/
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/8815/

Also, how long did it take u to study the Talmud?

I am still studying it, by no means is noone ever finished studying it except for our gedolim. What is complicated about the Talmud is that it refers to information like you know the whole Talmud and Torah already. They say it is written about this, and make claims about something else, so the average Jew, let alone not Jew may have a tough time understanding it. Studying without a study partner to question your conclusion and learn it with you is not aloud in religious schools (Yeshivas)

[Philosopher]

The most effective way to study Talmud is to take the Daf Yomi cycle. This is where you study one page of Talmud a day. One cycle takes about 7 years, 5 months.

Here is some info on it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daf_Yomi
http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/dafyomi/
http://www.dafyomi.org/

These are refutations of the anti-semites claims on the Talmud:

http://talmud.faithweb.com/
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/8815/

Is it possible to study the Talmud in 6 months?

[rebelishaulman]

Is it possible to study the Talmud in 6 months?

No way. Maybe you can read it in that time if your dedicated, yet, 6 months? I doubt you can even read it all and retain any information. It is huge, here is what a Talmud set looks like:

http://www.artscroll.com/Talmud1.htm

It costs around 2,000 dollars to buy the entire Talmud!

[Philosopher]

No way. Maybe you can read it in that time if your dedicated, yet, 6 months? I doubt you can even read it all and retain any information. It is huge, here is what a Talmud set looks like:

http://www.artscroll.com/Talmud1.htm

It costs around 2,000 dollars to buy the entire Talmud!

Are Talmuds available in abridged form?

[rebelishaulman]

Are Talmuds available in abridged form?

Not really but they are sold in 72 seperate books. You can buy all together or each seperate where they send you the book in time for when Daf Yomi gets to that book so the payments are really spread out and you get each book when you need it.

Here is one of the 72:
http://www.artscroll.com/Books/tbr1.html

[snakelegs]

In Iggerot Moshe (Y.D. Vol. 1, no. 235) R. Moshe Feinstein ruled that a Jewish women who had converted to Christian Science has the status of a mumar and we don’t consider the possibility that maybe before her death she repented. Hence, according to R. Moshe, she should not be buried in a Jewish cemetery.

Nevertheless, he agreed as far as the preparation of her body for burial is concerned that it, as well as the actual burial, be carried out according to halacha. He concludes by noting that once she has already been buried her body may be removed and re-buried in a Jewish cemetery since her first burial was an atonement (kappara).

This should not be done until after a period of 12 months have elapsed from the time of the first burial. If however the family is humiliated, the body may be transferred immediately.

R. Aharon Walkin (Resp. Z’kan Aharon Vol. 2 (Y.D.) no. 80-82) also ruled that a Jew who converted may not be buried in a Jewish cemetery. In the particular case in question there were some indications that the individual regretted the conversion, but R. Walkin maintained that there was not sufficient evidence of repentance.

See also R. Herzog’s article in Noam Vol. 2, pp. 1-13; Resp. Divrei Malkiel Vol. 3, no. 87; Resp. Pri Hasadeh Vol. 4, no. 51.

The Chatam Sofer wrote that in the case of a mumar kaddish should be recited for 12 not 11 months. (Y.D. Tzitz Eliezer Vol. 5, no. 43).

R. Gedalya Felder in Yesodei Yeshurun (Vol. 1, p. 393) explains that although kaddish may be recited on behalf of a mumar, one does not mourn his death. The presence of kaddish and absence of mourning both help provide a kappara for the mumar.

In the Sefer Chasidim we find: “A Jew who converted and died is not mourned nor eulogized” (no. 1908; see Mekor Chesed; Resp. Lev Avraham no. 138.). However according to the Tur (O.C. 547) and others the customs of mourning (Kriyah, shiva, etc.) are observed unless the deceased was a mumar l’hachis. In most instances this is not the case.

todah rabbah for this.
doesn't this indicate that a jew who becomes a christian is no longer considered jewish? am i missing something? if the person is still accepted as a jew, there would be no question about burial in a jewish cemetery. (which is why i asked about this specifically).
i just can't see how a jew who becomes a christian could possibly still be seen by jews as being a jew any more. what about the jews who chose martyrdom rather than conversion?
by the way, do you know if the orthodox publication "tradition" is still around?
i am really glad you're on this board and also appreciate the links you gave to philosopher. thanks again.

[Agnostic]

i taught myself hebrew more than 3 decades ago. i can't speak it very well because of lack of experience, but i can read it well enough to read newspapers and novels.
you will find that it is really quite an easy language. most words can be reduced to a root of 3 letters, and once you've learned the root, you can easily figure out the meaning from the context.
i am convinced that, in its simplicity, it is the most beautiful language in the world.
good luck to you.

Wow, Kudos to you Snakelegs
I live in S. California and hear spanish everyday and still cant speak it.

[rebelishaulman]

doesn't this indicate that a jew who becomes a christian is no longer considered jewish? am i missing something?

No, they are just an apostate jew.

just can't see how a jew who becomes a christian could possibly still be seen by jews as being a jew any more. what about the jews who chose martyrdom rather than conversion?

You can be a Jew, and not follow Judaism. It may not seem logical to you, but that is the halacha on this.

by the way, do you know if the orthodox publication "tradition" is still around?

http://www.ou.org/publications/tradition.htm

[snakelegs]

No, they are just an apostate jew.



You can be a Jew, and not follow Judaism. It may not seem logical to you, but that is the halacha on this.



http://www.ou.org/publications/tradition.htm

i know you can still be a jew even though you do not practice, but this is quite different than actually converting to another religion.
ok. i will have to accept what you say on this subject. but if you have any proofs or sources about a jew remains a jew even if converting to christianity, i'd appreciate it.
thanks for your time and link.

[snakelegs]

Wow, Kudos to you Snakelegs
I live in S. California and hear spanish everyday and still cant speak it.

thanks. but i also live in s. calif and still do not speak spanish.
one of the distinct advantages of this ignorance is that i can be in my yard and if my neighbours are having a conversation, i am not forced to listen in, like i would be if it was in english.
i am currently teaching myself urdu and having a really hard time with it.
if i live long enough, some day i would really like to learn arabic too.

[Philosopher]

Is an Apostate Jew superior to a gentile?

[rebelishaulman]

Is an Apostate Jew superior to a gentile?

A regular Jew isn't superior to a gentile. He just has more responsibilities on this earth (following all 613 laws).

[Grace Seeker]

Could you provide a link that simply lists the 7 laws that are expected of Gentiles and the 613 that apply to Jews?


And while I don't want to get in questions of "superiority" (because I think that term takes into the wrong way of thinking), how does Judaism view the righteousness of a Gentile who keeps the 7 Noahide laws vs. an apostate Jew who keeps none of the 613?

[rebelishaulman]

Could you provide a link that simply lists the 7 laws that are expected of Gentiles and the 613 that apply to Jews?

Sure. This is a list and also an in depth look into each of the seven laws:

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/noahide.html

Here are links from Jewish sources:

http://www.aish.com/wallcam/7_Noachide_Laws.asp
http://www.noahide.org/

The 613 laws can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot
http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=411&o=91&dns=1

Another good list:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...3_mitzvot.html

And while I don't want to get in questions of "superiority" (because I think that term takes into the wrong way of thinking), how does Judaism view the righteousness of a Gentile who keeps the 7 Noahide laws vs. an apostate Jew who keeps none of the 613?

A righteous gentile who follows all seven laws, is following the Torah better than a Jew who follows no Torah. Jews do not have the choice to "Pick and Choose". The laws are binding on them if they can fufill them or are put in a position of fufilling them. A righteous gentile is certainly better than an apostate Jew, by a lot!

[Philosopher]

Do you have any other occupation other than being a Rabbi?

[rebelishaulman]

Do you have any other occupation other than being a Rabbi?

I teach religious high school for a few periods, and moderate a Jewish message board for Jewish teens with problems.

[Philosopher]

Why are Jews not allowed to eat the bottom half of a cow?

Why dont Jews eat pork?

[al-fateh]

why do jews want to destroy Al-Aqsa?

[Philosopher]

why do jews want to destroy Al-Aqsa?

They dont. This is a very offensive question.

[rebelishaulman]

why do jews want to destroy Al-Aqsa?

We don't. Jews are not allowed to build the Holy Temple on the Temple Mount until the Moshiach comes.

[Philosopher]

Is it true that Zionism was founded by atheists?

[Grace Seeker]

I might have phrased the above question, Is it true that Zionism was founded by humanist Jews?

So, I would be interested in perhaps an essay on the question if you have time.

[Philosopher]

I might have phrased the above question, Is it true that Zionism was founded by humanist Jews?

So, I would be interested in perhaps an essay on the question if you have time.

I meant atheist as in, they rejected God and did not go to Israel to fullfill a prophesy.

[Grace Seeker]

I meant atheist as in, they rejected God and did not go to Israel to fullfill a prophesy.

Yeah, it's OK. I think we just have two different, but apparently related questions.

[rebelishaulman]

The Zionist movement was not founded by any G-d fearing Jews by any mean. The Zionist movement became a strong movement in many of the Jewish communities in Europe after the Holocaust where people lost all of there family and had no where to go. The Zionists did not have the intentions of fufilling a religious prophecy at all. They just wanted a state where Jews could live and be safe and not be governed by non-Jewish goverments which had persecuted so many. One of the major motivations for Zionism was the belief that the Jews needed to return to their historic homeland, not just as a refuge from anti-Semitism, but also to govern themselves as an independent nation. Some Zionists, mainly socialist Zionists, believed that the Jews' centuries of being oppressed in anti-Semitic societies had reduced Jews to a meek, vulnerable, despairing existence which invited further anti-Semitism. They argued that Jews should redeem themselves from their history by becoming farmers, workers, and soldiers in a country of their own. These socialist Zionists generally rejected religion.


They did a pretty good job in building a country to. Tel Aviv the largest city in Israel began with Zionists building a community on sand dunes they purchased.

Before:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:T...nding_1909.jpg

After:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Azrli_65.JPG

The religious communities in Europe however rejected Zionism on the grounds that the Moshiach was to lead the Jews to Israel and noone should hasten this process nor should a Jewish state be created before the Moshiach.

The three oaths is an important part of this:

What are these three oaths? 1.)One that Israel not “ascend the wall” [Rashi: together, by force]: 2.)one that the Holy One, Blessed be He, adjured Israel not to rebel against the nations of the world: 3.)and one that the Holy One, Blessed be He, adjured the nations of the world not to oppress Israel overmuch.

So basically, this means that the Jews may not take Israel by force according to the first oath. However, the country of Israel was created by a vote in the UN, so some would say the country may have been taken by force, others say it may not have. The second oath states that the Jews should not rebel against the countries that host them during the exile (golus). I do not believe that ever happend. The third oath is the tricky one. The Nations of the world were not allowed to opress the Jews to much. Now 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust, so was that overmuch? I am inclined to think so.

The Rabbi's disagree on this, many feel that the oath broken by the gentiles made the other oaths broken to saying that the oaths were all dependant on eachother, in other words, as long as the Gentile nations do not opress Jews to much, then the Jews should not rebel nor seek a state in the Holy Land.

Some Rabbi's say what the gentiles did was not dependant on our oaths. They believe the state of Israel should not be before the Moshiach. However, the group that protests the state of Israel with anti-semites and people who have Jewish blood on there hands have been excommunicated from Judaism (issued cherems) by many Rabbi's. But anti-Zionism which does not invlove being with anti-Jews does exist in the ultra-religious Jewish community. These people however, realize that the to attack other Jews, or protest with anti-Jews is a terrible sin, worse than the state of Israel!

I personally am under the opinion that Zionism is not a correct view for a religious Jew. However, Israel is a fact of life now, and the Arab world wants to destroy Israel so bad and is in such a frenzy that to save Jewish life is the most important thing which is Jewish law. Therefore, if the state is given back to the Arabs, many Jews will die (no matter what deals Arabs claim to give Israel). Israel therefore must be supported because the goverment is the defender of Jewish life in the Holy Land. Peace must be aquired somehow but since this may not be possible, it is a tough descion to recongnize a Palestinian state which may be a base of operation to kill more Jews.

Therefore, Jewish life is the most important, and the Israeli goverment, defends these lives currently, but sometimes makes terrible descions putting Jewish life in much harm. The zionists are also better then the ultra religious bannished from our communtiy because they are involved with anti-semites who have Jewish blood on there hands.

The Arabs didnt always hate Jews. At least, not more - and usually a lot less - than the Christians. If you check out the prior discussion in this forum, youll see that the Jews enjoyed a relatively (relatively) peaceful and friendly relationship with the Arabs for two thousand years. Of course, there were always evil or insane ARab warlords or leaders who persecuted Jews, but they persecuted others as well, and the Arab governments as a whole were not at all interrested in harming the Jewsh population within their own borders, or elsewhere.

Jews fought side by side with the Arabs against the Crusaders, and, all the way up till the Old Yishuv, had a cordial relationship with their Arab neighbors (for a description of the ARab-Jewish relaitonship in Eretz Yisroel in those days, check otu the ARtScroll book on Rav Yosef Chiam Zonnenfeld, where it is described vividly).

All that ended when the Jewish state issue came up and the Holocaust happend. The ARabs living there didnt like immigration of Jews at all. This caused Arabs infuriation against Jews. There is no question that the Arabs now want to kill Jews even if you hate someone, you cant murder them! But as the cycle of mistrust and hatred grows on both sides, it becomes more and mroe impossible to even have peace.

It is true, that the Arabs hate us now, so now support must be towards who saves Jewish life, who defends Jewish life. Thw would be the secular goverment of Israel. Remember, to save your life, or another all laws may be broken except murder, idolatry and adultry.

However, the Rabbi's say that the Jews will suffer a lot and the Moshiach may save them and even "fight the wars of G-d" so hopefully the Moshiach will come soon and save the whole world from this violence!

Although all the great and powerful ancient nations are gone, the Jews, have survived.

This is because the Jews throughout the centuries knew the secret of survival. Jewish survival, at least.

That is, whereas the other Nations survive based on who is stronger, where the Jewish nation is concerned, it is just the opposite. For us to remain safe, we are instructed by Hashem in the Gemora in Kesuvos not to defy the nations of the world, even when we are right and they are wrong. We do not survive by waging wars or by any show pf physical strength. On the contrary - the less we are in conflict with the nations of the world, the safer we are. The more we are in conflict with them, the more deadly it is for us. Regardless of how physically "strong" we are.

This is how we have so miraculaously survived two thousand years of (exile) Golus. By following the instructions of Torah and our sages throughout the generations: Do NOT fight with the Goyim.

If we do fight with them, we can only lose r"l. The Gemora says the result will be that Jewis blood will be spilled "like that of game hunted in the field."
Writes Rabbeinu Bachya (Vayishlach): "So too we must follow the ways of our ancestors, and to prepare ourselves to engage the [Goyim] with gifts and with soft speech, and by praying to Hashem. But [to engage them] with war is not possible, as it says (Shir HaShirim 2:7) 'I have made you swear....' Hashem made the Jews swear that they will not confront the nations of the world in war." However, self defense or protection of Jewish life is a justifyable means for war.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Edit:
Wrong section..sorry guys lol.

[rebelishaulman]

I edited more in if you wish to read it. I was not done.

[Grace Seeker]

In about a week I will be teaching a lesson in which I am sure a question will arise concern the Jewish name for G-d. The verse in question is Exodus 3:14.

Now, I have been taught my whole life that Jews never pronounced the name which we Christians would write as Yahweh. That for Jews it is just YHWH. Is this correct? That the vowels were taken form the word for Lord. But I think I am getting this last part confused with the creation of the English word Jehovah, where the vowels of Adonai were put between the consonants of the tetragram to create the word YeHoWaH, which then got changed to Jehovah.

Straighten me out on this if you can, please.

Am I correct that though most English texts translate the phrase as "I am who I am." That perhaps a better rendering is, "I will be who I will be."?

[rebelishaulman]

I'm sorry but I cannot even trype that word. We are never to pronounce it and I would advise you to not as well. For that word we say the Hebrew word of "L-rd" which is "Ad-noi"

(the dash "-" is replaced by an "o" in both words.)

The first letter of the word is a "yud" which makes the "Y" sound. I have no clue where the "J" came from, but the Hebrew name for Joshua is "Yehoshua" so I guess it is just a reality in the English language.

In Sanhedrin 90a, it is stated in that Mishna:

The following have no share in the world to come... "Abba Shaul said: Also he who speaks out the Holy Name with its vocals."
(Talmud, Sanhedrin 90a)

Read this footnote to gain understanding of the topic:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...n11.html#fn_81

Am I correct that though most English texts translate the phrase as "I am who I am." That perhaps a better rendering is, "I will be who I will be."?

Best translation would be Hashem said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'

[Philosopher]

Is it true that the Talmud describes Mary as a prostitute?

[rebelishaulman]

Is it true that the Talmud describes Mary as a prostitute?

No. Can you point out where in the Talmud it may lead you to think this?

[Philosopher]

No. Can you point out where in the Talmud it may lead you to think this?

Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a w-hore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.

[rebelishaulman]

First off, there is no socino edition online, so if your reading the one I think you are, you are reading one that is altered at the editor of the sites discretion.

Now for the refutations:

http://talmud.faithweb.com/articles/jesus.html#harlot
http://talmud.faithweb.com/articles/....html#benstada

[Philosopher]

What is a socino edition?

Also, what is the real translation of the verse?

Also, why is the Torah so anti-Christian? For example:

"Christians are allied with Hell, and Christianity is worse than incest". (Abodah Zarah 17a, p.85).

"WHEN MESSIAH COMES HE WILL DESTROY THE CHRISTIANS". (Sanhedrin 99a,p.668).

[rebelishaulman]

What is a socino edition?

It was a typo for "Soncino" edition.

Also, what is the real translation of the verse?

The refutation links I gave you, present you with the verses.

Also, why is the Torah so anti-Christian?

The Torah is not anti-christian because there was no christianity before the Torah. The Talmud is what you are refering to. If you have a grip on history, you would find that thousands of little genocides and massacres have been commited against the Jews by Christians, so who hates who? When did the Jews kill thousands of Christians? Christianity seems to be much more anti-Jewish than Judaism is anti-Christian.

"Christians are allied with Hell, and Christianity is worse than incest". (Abodah Zarah 17a, p.85).

Where did you ever read that from?

"WHEN MESSIAH COMES HE WILL DESTROY THE CHRISTIANS". (Sanhedrin 99a,p.668).

Please show me where you found this to. There is no such quote.

(I copy and pasted what you wrote, and it seems you like reading anti-semetic sites because these are where your baseless accusations come from.)

[Philosopher]

http://www.google.com/search?client=...=Google+Search

[rebelishaulman]

What is this exactly? The website that is the first one on the page is an anti-Jewish link that promotes "Jewish conpiracies" and has actually edited the Talmud to make it seem evil. Sad.

[Philosopher]

What is this exactly? The website that is the first one on the page is an anti-Jewish link that promotes "Jewish conpiracies" and has actually edited the Talmud to make it seem evil. Sad.

That is why I provided a google link. Almost all the results in the first 3 pages have the same translation. Do that verse true?

[rebelishaulman]

That is why I provided a google link. Almost all the results in the first 3 pages have the same translation. Do that verse true?

Are you kidding? All the first 3 pages are taken from neo-nazi, white supremist, anti-jewish, and "christian fundamentalist" sites.

Can you present me with a unbias site from that google search? I could also put some searches into google and find a ton of anti-islamic sites. Does this mean they are true?

[Philosopher]

Are you kidding? All the first 3 pages are taken from neo-nazi, white supremist, anti-jewish, and "christian fundamentalist" sites.

Can you present me with a unbias site from that google search? I could also put some searches into google and find a ton of anti-islamic sites. Does this mean they are true?

Then what does Yebamoth 59b actually say?

[rebelishaulman]

Then what does Yebamoth 59b actually say?

One interp: It says: It says that in the Mishna Cohen gadol may not marry one who lost her hymen as the result of a blow (the dog for example attacking her)

"It once happened at a village that while a young lady was sweeping the floor there was a wild ferocious dog that attacked her from the rear (intercourse against her will occured during the attack)."

So the discussion is about this women and can she marry a cohen after an attack like this where A woman who had intercourse with a beast (by accident in the dogs case) can she marry a cohen? Some may say yes, and others may say no.

[thirdwatch512]

ok now i am NOT trying to offend judaism, but i do want to know what your thoughts are on this...

http://www.gotquestions.org/seventy-sevens.html

this page basically talks about the mathematical accuracies of when the messiah would be prophesised to come from Daniel chapter 9.

[rebelishaulman]

Is this what you are refering to?

Question: Is it true that sixty-nine "weeks" of the Seventy Weeks countdown of Daniel 9 starts in 444 B.C.E. and ends with the death of Jesus (30/33 C.E.)?

Answer: Christian commentators prefer to start the Seventy Weeks countdown with 444 or 445 B.C.E. because it brings their calculations closer to the time period in which Jesus died (30/33 C.E.). A far better starting date is the decree of Cyrus (537 B.C.E) upon which all subsequent grants of approval were based (Isaiah 44:28). A correct reading of the passage and some simple arithmetic dispels any attempt to claim 444 B.C.E. as a starting date and Jesus' death in 30/33 C.E. as a terminus.

First, the seven weeks and the sixty-two weeks are really two separate periods and speak of two separate "anointed" ones. Second, even if we were to count 483 years from 444 B.C.E. we get to the year 38 C.E. Jesus is crucified in the period ranging from 30 to 33 C.E. But, the text of Daniel 9:26 says, "And after the sixty-two weeks an anointed one shall be cut off." This shows that if we use 444 B.C.E. as a starting date the alleged second "anointed one" was "cut off" in the period following the year 38 C.E. (that is, "after the sixty-two weeks"). There would be no connection to anyone "cut off" prior to that year. Thus, there is no reference here to Jesus.

Question: Is the Seventy Weeks countdown of Daniel 9 computed according to a 360-day "prophetic year"?

Answer: There is no "prophetic year" of 360 days alluded to anywhere in the Bible. It is a nineteenth century Christian invention developed through imaginative use of the Genesis flood narrative.

Some post-biblical sectarian literature and the apocryphal books of Jubilees and Enoch advocate a calendar consisting of 364 days, divided into twelve months of thirty days each. At the end of each three-month cycle a thirty-first day was added to the month. But, this is still not a 360-day "prophetic year."

Obviously, the calendar used in the Daniel 9 countdown has nothing to do with the nineteenth century development of a spurious 360-day "prophetic year."

Question: I have noticed that there are many differences between Jewish Bible translations of Daniel 9:25-26 and several different Christian Bible translations. What should be the correct readings of the disputed words and phrases?

Answer:In our study of the different translations we will compare the Hebrew text with that of the King James Version of the Bible. It contains the grossest errors, which are, in whole or in part, duplicated by other Christian versions of the Bible.

First, the King James Version puts a definite article before "Messiah the Prince" (9:25). The original Hebrew text does not read "the Messiah the Prince," but, having no article, it is to be rendered "a mashiach ["anointed one," "messiah"], a prince," i.e., Cyrus (Isaiah 45:1, 13; Ezra 1:1-2).

The word mashiach is nowhere used in the Jewish Scriptures as a proper name, but as a title of authority of a king or a high priest. Therefore, a correct rendering of the original Hebrew should be: "an anointed one, a prince."

Second, the King James Version disregards the Hebrew punctuation. The punctuation mark 'atnach functions as the main pause within a sentence. The 'atnach is the appropriate equivalent of the semicolon in the modern system of punctuation. It thus has the effect of separating the seven weeks from the sixty-two weeks: ". . . until an anointed one, a prince, shall be seven weeks; then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again . . ." (9:25).

By creating a sixty-nine week period, which is not divided into two separate periods of seven weeks and sixty-two weeks respectively, Christians reach an incorrect conclusion, i.e., that the Messiah will come 483 years after the destruction of the First Temple.

Some Christians claim that there is something called a "prophetic year" of 360 days, thus shortening the interval between the beginning of the 483 years which they claim began in 444 B.C.E., and the date of the crucifixion of Jesus. They do this in order to make the dates coincide, but the claim of a "prophetic year" is without any scriptural foundation.

Third, the King James Version omits the definite article in Daniel 9:26, which should read: "And after the threescore and two weeks. . . ." By treating the sixty-two weeks as a distinct period, this verse, in the original Hebrew, shows that the sixty-two weeks mentioned in verse 25 are correctly separated from the seven weeks by the 'atnach. Hence, two anointed ones are spoken of in this chapter, one of whom comes after seven weeks (Cyrus), and the other after a further period of sixty-two weeks (Alexander Yannai).

Fourth, the words v'ayn lo (9:26) are incorrectly translated by the King James Version as "but not for himself." They should be translated as "he has nothing" or "he shall have nothing." There are Christian commentators who maintain this phrase has both meanings, but that claim cannot be supported grammatically.

[thirdwatch512]

thanks for the response!!

[Grace Seeker]

The Torah is not anti-christian because there was no christianity before the Torah. The Talmud is what you are refering to. If you have a grip on history, you would find that thousands of little genocides and massacres have been commited against the Jews by Christians, so who hates who? When did the Jews kill thousands of Christians? Christianity seems to be much more anti-Jewish than Judaism is anti-Christian.

Have mercy on me. I'm a white, male, American Christian. I feel so guilty for enslaving black people, oppressing women, imperialistically exploiting the world, and committing genocide on the Jews. Basically I'm a piece of trash. Can't think of one thing people like me have ever done right, except, oh yeah, STOP HITLER!

Seriously, I know there is a mixed baggaged past when it comes to the actions of Christians over the centuries. But, I can't think of any group whose hands clean. Isn't what is more important how we try to treat each other now?

[rebelishaulman]

Have mercy on me. I'm a white, male, American Christian. I feel so guilty for enslaving black people, oppressing women, imperialistically exploiting the world, and committing genocide on the Jews. Basically I'm a piece of trash. Can't think of one thing people like me have ever done right, except, oh yeah, STOP HITLER!

Seriously, I know there is a mixed baggaged past when it comes to the actions of Christians over the centuries. But, I can't think of any group whose hands clean. Isn't what is more important how we try to treat each other now?

I'm not trying to put you down, but I am explaining that in the Talmud you may find a few harsh verses against Christians, but these verses are specifically towards Christians who were herding them into ghetto's and making them pay a tax to pray, while at the same time continuisly raiding there town destroying houses.

[lavikor201]

Have mercy on me. I'm a white, male, American Christian. I feel so guilty for enslaving black people, oppressing women, imperialistically exploiting the world, and committing genocide on the Jews. Basically I'm a piece of trash. Can't think of one thing people like me have ever done right, except, oh yeah, STOP HITLER!

Seriously, I know there is a mixed baggaged past when it comes to the actions of Christians over the centuries. But, I can't think of any group whose hands clean. Isn't what is more important how we try to treat each other now?

lol, "opressing" women? That is the last thing Christianity leads the world in... :exhausted

[snakelegs]

welcome back, lavikor!

[thirdwatch512]

lol, "opressing" women? That is the last thing Christianity leads the world in... :exhausted

hah i hate to say this, but in all honesty i think the only religion that treats women equally is the baha'i faith and buddhism. all other religions seem to have opression of women here and there.

thankfully judaism has still been pretty women friendly.. they even have women rabbi's here in america (at reform temples.. i know there's a synagogue here that has a girl rabbi.)

[Muslim Knight]

hah i hate to say this, but in all honesty i think the only religion that treats women equally is the baha'i faith and buddhism. all other religions seem to have opression of women here and there.

thankfully judaism has still been pretty women friendly.. they even have women rabbi's here in america (at reform temples.. i know there's a synagogue here that has a girl rabbi.)

Sometimes I ask my sister whether she felt oppressed whenever she wants to go out shopping she has to don her hijabs and what not, I get this hard stare from her. Then she replied, "Don't ask stupid questions."

I met this girl in campus where in the beginning she didn't wear hijaab and was used to wearing make ups and sexy clothing. Then suddenly she changed. She lost the make up, and starts to wear clothes that hide much of her physical features, but she looks rather pure and innocent once again. Like a woman who got her virgin back. I asked her does she feel oppressed wearing this way and she replied she felt rather oppressed having to keep up with all th trends in clothing and the make up taking much of her time when she'd rather be doing useful things like studying or work at her own store and still remain happy and pretty.

[Kyubi]

Iam sure in this 100 hundred page long thread this question must have been raised, if not then here it is.

In the jewish religion they are given the prophecy that the jews must wait for the mesia (spelling?). My question how long are the jews going to wait it has been two thousand years.

What is the jewish prespective on this?

[north_malaysian]

hah i hate to say this, but in all honesty i think the only religion that treats women equally is the baha'i faith and buddhism. all other religions seem to have opression of women here and there.

thankfully judaism has still been pretty women friendly.. they even have women rabbi's here in america (at reform temples.. i know there's a synagogue here that has a girl rabbi.)

Buddhism? Not all sects allowed women to be bhikkus (monks)... And I never heard a female dalai lama yet...

[lavikor201]

hah i hate to say this, but in all honesty i think the only religion that treats women equally is the baha'i faith and buddhism. all other religions seem to have opression of women here and there.

thankfully judaism has still been pretty women friendly.. they even have women rabbi's here in america (at reform temples.. i know there's a synagogue here that has a girl rabbi.)

Well traditional Judaism does not believe in women Rabbi's because we believe that women and men are equal but have different roles in life.

Sometimes I ask my sister whether she felt oppressed whenever she wants to go out shopping she has to don her hijabs and what not, I get this hard stare from her. Then she replied, "Don't ask stupid questions."

I met this girl in campus where in the beginning she didn't wear hijaab and was used to wearing make ups and sexy clothing. Then suddenly she changed. She lost the make up, and starts to wear clothes that hide much of her physical features, but she looks rather pure and innocent once again. Like a woman who got her virgin back. I asked her does she feel oppressed wearing this way and she replied she felt rather oppressed having to keep up with all th trends in clothing and the make up taking much of her time when she'd rather be doing useful things like studying or work at her own store and still remain happy and pretty.

Nice post.

Iam sure in this 100 hundred page long thread this question must have been raised, if not then here it is.

In the jewish religion they are given the prophecy that the jews must wait for the mesia (spelling?). My question how long are the jews going to wait it has been two thousand years.

What is the jewish prespective on this?

The Moshiach will come when G-d wills it. We are willing to wait much longer. Remember, that the Moshiach must fufill every prophecy, incuding world peace. if he is killed (dies) in the process it is written that he was sent to test the masses.

Buddhism? Not all sects allowed women to be bhikkus (monks)... And I never heard a female dalai lama yet...

I am not sure if Budhists believe that someone may be reincarnated as the opposite sex. It would be a good question for a Budhist, but I am not sure if one can be reincarntated according to Budhism from male to female. If not, that explains why there will not be a female Dalai lama.

[thirdwatch512]

The Moshiach will come when G-d wills it. We are willing to wait much longer. Remember, that the Moshiach must fufill every prophecy, incuding world peace. if he is killed (dies) in the process it is written that he was sent to test the masses.

doesn't the tanakh say that the authorities will kill the messiah? i could have sworn i saw a verse on that.

anyways can you show me a verse that says that if the messiah is killed in the process he was sent as a test?

[lavikor201]

doesn't the tanakh say that the authorities will kill the messiah? i could have sworn i saw a verse on that.

No. I have never heard of such a thing, if it says anything of that sort I would love to see the verse.

anyways can you show me a verse that says that if the messiah is killed in the process he was sent as a test?

"But if he did not suceed in all this or was killed/died, he is definitly not the Moshiach promised in the Torah... and G-d only appointed him in order to test the masses.
(Mishneh Torah, Hilchos Melachim 11:4)

[Grace Seeker]

"But if he did not suceed in all this or was killed/died, he is definitly not the Moshiach promised in the Torah... and G-d only appointed him in order to test the masses.
(Mishneh Torah, Hilchos Melachim 11:4)

I don't recognize this as being from the Tanakh. Are verses like these understood to be on par with the Tanakh as G-d's word?

[thirdwatch512]

isaiah 53.
http://www.chaim.org/isaiah53.htm


2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied ;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.


another site that talks about isaiah 53 and other verses like it...http://www.isaiah53.net/

[lavikor201]

I don't recognize this as being from the Tanakh. Are verses like these understood to be on par with the Tanakh as G-d's word?

The Mishneh Torah (משנה תורה), subtitled Yad ha-Chazaka (יד החזקה), is a code of Jewish law by one of the most important Jewish authorities.

isaiah 53.

Here are some responses:


The one prooftext in the Christian arsenal that they are most confident will turn any Jew to Christianity is the 53rd chapter of Isaiah. The prophet speaks of someone called the Lord’s "servant," one who is characterized as one who suffers.

The reality is that this passage can indeed be construed as messianic, but it does not speak of the Messiah, as Christians want it to be. Indeed, if you go into Christian chat rooms, you’ll find people with handles like "Servant" and "Isaiah53." This chapter is speaking about the nation of Israel. The fact of the matter is, some Christians agree with the Jews about the subject of Isaiah 53, as we shall see in Part III.

Did Isaiah Identify the Servant?
Numerous times throughout the Book of Isaiah the servant is called by name. The following is a sampling:

Isaiah 41:8 But thou, Israel, [art] my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. [9] [Thou] whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou [art] my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away. (KJV)

[44:1] Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen: [2] Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, [which] will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. (KJV)

[44:21] Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou [art] my servant: I have formed thee; thou [art] my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me. (KJV)

[45:4] For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. (KJV)

[49:3] And said unto me, Thou [art] my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. (KJV)

So, we see that the identity of G-d’s servant is plainly evident.
The chapter divisions did not exist until about four hundred years ago. Therefore, it’s important to examine this chapter in its context, and not just cut off the page, all by itself.

Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean. [2] Shake thyself from the dust; arise, [and] sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion. [3] For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money. [4] For thus saith the Lord G-D, My people went down aforetime into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause. [5] Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day [is] blasphemed. [6] Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore [they shall know] in that day that I [am] he that doth speak: behold, [it is] I. [7] How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy G-d reigneth! [8] Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion. [9] Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. [10] The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our G-d. [11] Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean [thing]; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD. [12] For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the LORD will go before you; and the G-d of Israel [will be] your reward. [13] Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. [14] As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: [15] So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for [that] which had not been told them shall they see; and [that] which they had not heard shall they consider. (KJV)

Take this chapter all by itself, and it's fairly obvious that it speaks of Zion, of the nation of Israel. This portion of scripture sets the stage for chapter 53.

Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? [2] For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him. [3] He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. [4] Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of G-d, and afflicted. [5] But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. [6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. [7] He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. [8] He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. [9] And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth. [10] Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. [11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. [12] Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (KJV)

Now, according to Christians, the topic of Isaiah 52 is temporarily suspended from the nation of Israel to then speak exclusively about the Messiah. Before we get into the in-depth issues of mistranslation, there are a couple of things that need to be addressed.
1) This chapter of Isaiah makes no mention of the Messiah himself. We know how to identify the future king, because he's called the king, the branch of Jesse, or is referred to as David himself. The reason why Christians cling to this chapter so dearly as proof that the Messiah is to suffer is because it is one of those very few places where they can attempt to do so. The actual breadth of Messianic prophecy is quite exhaustive, and you don't find the notion of a king suffering in them, but you have this chapter, which can be twisted to that end.

2) There is a great deal of circular reasoning involved here. People start with Jesus being the Messiah, Jesus suffered, Isaiah 53 is about one who suffers, so Isaiah 53 must be about the Messiah!
Now, a breakdown of the verses themselves, in Part II that follows, or skip to Part III.


Part II: http://www.messiahtruth.com/isai53b.html

The Veil of Lies

Now that you’ve seen the analysis and breakdown of what Isaiah 53 was truly about, let's see how Christians respond to this. Not all Christians will tell these tall tales, and I think I need to make that disclaimer from the beginning. However, the evangelical community still clings to this portion of scripture for dear life and is willing to tell some rather offensive lies to protect it.
Israel? Didn’t You Hear About How Rashi Made That One Up?

This is a rather well-worn argument is that the Jewish view of Isaiah 53 had always been about the Messiah in particular, but Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo ben Yitzchak, the greatest Medieval Torah and Talmud commentator), who was completely opposed to Christian interpretations of the Bible, created a new interpretation of Isaiah 53. This is believed to have been fabricated by an apologist of the nineteenth century. Jews had never interpreted Isaiah 53 as being about a suffering Messiah. If it was, then Christians must think Peter was a foolish fellow, since he obviously must have not been learned the Tanach when he displayed astonishment after Jesus foretold that he would die.

Who tells this lie? Evangelical Christians tell this lie. Jews for Jesus tells this lie. The Chosen People Ministries tells this lie. All it takes is one lie of this nature for you to be proven untrustworthy. They tell these lies in spades. Numerous tall tales of this sort are told, trying to create the picture that Jesus was in the beliefs of the rabbis, and then a large quantity of quotes, sometimes taken out of context, other times fabricated, are presented, and the evangelist will say, "Don’t you see? The rabbis were saying this all along!" These are the same evangelicals who will also denounce the views of the rabbis when they prove an inconvenience. There wasn’t exactly a huge movement among Jews to jump into baptism pools in the first millenium of the Common Era. One would think that if it was made up by Rashi, then this would not have been the case. Instead, any examination of a history text will show that Christians persecuted Jews during the first thousand years of Christianity (and afterward!), and that the Jews resisted Christianity, even at the expense of their lives.

The fact of the matter is that this lie can be proven such by relying on Christian texts. In the third century, the early church father Origen wrote a volume entitled Contra Celsum, a criticism of a pagan scholar who spoke against Christianity. Origen told of a time when he had approached a group of Jews, and tried using Isaiah 53 as a tool aimed at evengelizing them. "Those whom the Jews regarded as learned" explained to Origen the Jewish interpretation of the fourth Servant Song, and it took place nearly a thousand years before Rashi lived. For proof, see this Catholic website, with Contra Celsum translated online, chapters 54 and 55.

There are also other references, such as the Talmud, which explain the Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 53, which date back long before Rashi as well, but you need only present one proof in this case to prove that Christian missionaries lie about this, and the irrational lengths to which they will go to defend their untenable views.
Don’t You Know They’re Hiding it from the Haftarah?

First, let us establish what the Haftarah is. Every Sabbath the Jews read from the Torah. Less than two hundred years prior to the beginning of the Common Era, the Greeks ruled over the Jews, and had forbidden the reading of Torah. To the Jews, whose lives revolve around the sacred Law, this presented a terrible dilemma. However, they made due by reading portions from the Prophets, which either had a message that was similar in tone with the week’s normal Torah reading, or had the tone of a current annual holiday. An important point is that the Jews do not read the entire Bible on a yearly schedule. Only the Torah is completely read each year. The Haftarah makes up less than 10% of the entire Bible. Isaiah 53 was not chosen to be part of the Haftarah because it lacked a theme that matched a holiday or weekly Torah reading. After the Torah was allowed to be read once again, the Jews continued the Haftarah reading, and it remains a tradition to this day. Most compelling in arguing that the Jews are hiding Isaiah 53 from the Haftarah is that the Haftarah is mentioned in the New Testament!

Acts 13:15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, [Ye] men [and] brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on. (KJV)

After reading "the law and the prophets." The law is the Torah, and the prophets make up the Haftarah. What is the claim made by evangelicals that the Jews are hiding something in excluding Isaiah 53 from the Haftarah? It’s a lie.
Here’s a New Concept!

To make this issue all the more interesting, some Christian scholars agree with the Jewish interpretation! Go to your local bookstore and find the Bibles. One will find a pleasant surprise at finding the Revised Standard Version Oxford Study Edition Bible, and read the commentary it listed for Isaiah 53. RSV tells us that Isaiah 53 is about national Israel. New Revised Standard Version and New English Bible echo this analysis.

So, after these three short analyses, one must ask the question: how soon until the evangelical community sees that the world is not flat?

[lavikor201]

A. PRELIMINARY ISSUES
Before engaging in an examination of Isaiah 53 itself, some preliminary issues must be considered. First is the issue of circular reasoning. Even if we interpret the chapter as the Christians do (forgetting for a minute the mistranslations and distortions of context which will be noted below), the most that could be said is this: Isaiah 53 is about someone who dies for the sins of others. People may have seen Jesus die, but did anyone see him die as an atonement for the sins of others? Of course not; this is simply the meaning which the New Testament gives to his death. Only if you already accept the New Testament teaching that his death had a non-visible, spiritual significance can you than go back to Isaiah and say, "see - the Prophet predicted what I already believe." Isaiah 53, then, is in reality no "proof" at all, but rather a contrived confirmation for someone who has already chosen Christianity.

Second (and consistent with all Jewish teaching at the time), Jesus' own disciples didn't view Isaiah 53 as a messianic prophecy. For example, after Peter identifies Jesus as the Messiah (Matt. 16:16), he is informed that Jesus will be killed (Matt. 16:21). His response: "God forbid it, lord! This shall never happen to you" (Matt. 16:22). See, also, Mk. 9:31-32; Mk. 16:10-11; Jn. 20:9. Even Jesus didn't see Isaiah 53 as crucial to his messianic claims - why else did he call the Jews children of the devil for not believing in him before the alleged resurrection (Jn. 8:39-47)? And why did he later request that God "remove this cup from me" (Mk. 14:36) - didn't he know that a "removal of the cup" would violate the gentile understanding of Isaiah 53?

And third, even if we accept the gentile Christian interpretation of Isaiah 53, where is it indicated (either in Isaiah 53 or anywhere else in our Jewish Scriptures) that you must believe in this "Messiah" to get the benefits?

B. CONTEXT
Since any portion of Scripture is only understood properly when viewed in the context of God's revelation as a whole, some additional study will be helpful before you "tackle" Isaiah 53.

Look at the setting in which Isaiah 53 occurs. Earlier on in Isaiah, God had predicted exile and calamity for the Jewish people. Chapter 53, however, occurs in the midst of Isaiah's "Messages of Consolation", which tell of the restoration of Israel to a position of prominence and a vindication of their status as God's chosen people. In chapter 52, for example, Israel is described as "oppressed without cause" (v.4) and "taken away" (v.5), yet God promises a brighter future ahead, one in which Israel will again prosper and be redeemed in the sight of all the nations (v.1-3, 8-12).

Chapter 54 further elaborates upon the redemption which awaits the nation of Israel. Following immediately after chapter 53's promise of a reward for God's servant in return for all of its suffering (53:10-12), chapter 54 describes an unequivocally joyous fate for the Jewish people. Speaking clearly of the Jewish people and their exalted status (even according to all Christian commentaries), chapter 54 ends as follows: "`This is the heritage of the servants of the L-rd and their vindication is from Me,' declares the L-rd."

C. ISAIAH 53
In the original Hebrew texts, there are no chapter divisions, and Jew and Christian alike agree that chapter 53 is actually a continuation of the prophecy which begins at 52:13. Accordingly, our analysis must begin at that verse.

52:13 "Behold, My servant will prosper." Israel in the singular is called God's servant throughout Isaiah, both explicitly (Isa. 41:8-9; 44:1-2; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3) and implicitly (Isa. 42:19-20; 43:10) - the Messiah is not. Other references to Israel as God's servant include Jer. 30:10 (note that in Jer. 30:17, the servant Israel is regarded by the nations as an outcast, forsaken by God, as in Isa. 53:4); Jer. 46:27-28; Ps. 136:22; Lk. 1:54. ALSO: Given the Christian view that Jesus is God, is God His own servant?

52:15 - 53:1 "So shall he (the servant) startle many nations, the kings will stand speechless; For that which had not been told them they shall see and that which they had not heard shall they ponder. Who would believe what we have heard?" Quite clearly, the nations and their kings will be amazed at what happens to the "servant of the L-rd," and they will say "who would believe what we have heard?". 52:15 tells us explicitly that it is the nations of the world, the gentiles, who are doing the talking in Isaiah 53. See, also, Micah 7:12-17, which speaks of the nations' astonishment when the Jewish people again blossom in the Messianic age.

53:1 "And to whom has the arm of the L-rd been revealed?" In Isaiah, and throughout our Scriptures, God's "arm" refers to the physical redemption of the Jewish people from the oppression of other nations (see, e.g., Isa. 52:8-12; Isa. 63:12; Deut. 4:34; Deut. 7:19; Ps. 44:3).

53:3 "Despised and rejected of men." While this is clearly applicable to Israel (see Isa. 60:15; Ps. 44:13-14), it cannot be reconciled with the New Testament account of Jesus, a man who was supposedly "praised by all" (Lk. 4:14-15) and followed by multitudes (Matt. 4:25), who would later acclaim him as a prophet upon his triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Matt. 21:9-11). Even as he was taken to be crucified, a multitude bemoaned his fate (Lk. 23:27). Jesus had to be taken by stealth, as the rulers feared "a riot of the people" (Mk. 14:1-2).

53:3 "A man of pains and acquainted with disease." Israel's adversities are frequently likened to sickness - see, e.g., Isa. 1:5-6; Jer. 10:19; Jer 30:12.

53:4 "Surely our diseases he carried and our pains he bore." In Matt. 8:17, this is correctly translated, and said to be literally (not spiritually) fulfilled in Jesus' healing of the sick, a reading inconsistent with the Christian mistranslation of 53:4 itself.

53:4 "Yet we ourselves esteemed him stricken, smitten of G- D and afflicted." See Jer. 30:17 - of God's servant Israel (30:10), it is said by the nations, "It is Zion; no one cares for her."

53:5 "But he was wounded from (NOTE: not for) our transgressions, he was crushed from (AGAIN: not for) our iniquities." Whereas the nations had thought the Servant (Israel) was undergoing Divine retribution for its sins (53:4), they now realize that the Servant's sufferings stemmed from their actions and sinfulness. This theme is further developed throughout our Jewish Scriptures - see, e.g., Jer. 50:7; Jer. 10:25. ALSO: Note that the Messiah "shall not fail nor be crushed till he has set the right in the earth" (Isa. 42:4).

53:7 "He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth. Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, and like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, so he did not open his mouth." Note that in the prior chapter (Isa. 52), Israel is said to have been oppressed and taken away without cause (52:4-5). A similar theme is developed in Psalm 44, wherein King David speaks of Israel's faithfulness even in the face of gentile oppression (44:17- 18) and describes Israel as "sheep to be slaughtered" in the midst of the unfaithful gentile nations (44:22,11).

Regarding the claim that Jesus "did not open his mouth" when faced with oppression and affliction, see Matt. 27:46, Jn. 18:23, 36-37.

53:8 "From dominion and judgement he was taken away." Note the correct translation of the Hebrew. The Christians are forced to mistranslate, since - by Jesus' own testimony - he never had any rights to rulership or judgement, at least not on the "first coming." See, e.g., Jn. 3:17; Jn. 8:15; Jn. 12:47; Jn. 18:36.

53:8 "He was cut off out of the land of the living."

53:9 "His grave was assigned with wicked men." See Ez. 37:11-14, wherein Israelis described as "cut off" and God promises to open its "graves" and bring Israel back into its own land. Other examples of figurative deaths include Ex. 10:17; 2 Sam. 9:8; 2 Sam. 16:9.

53:8 "From my peoples' sins, there was injury to them." Here the Prophet makes absolutely clear, to anyone familiar with Biblical Hebrew, that the oppressed Servant is a collective Servant, not a single individual. The Hebrew word "lamoh", when used in our Scriptures, always means "to them" never "to him" and may be found, for example, in Psalm 99:7 - "They kept his testimonies, and the statute that He gave to them."

53:9 "And with the rich in his deaths." Perhaps King James should have changed the original Hebrew, which again makes clear that we are dealing with a collective Servant, i.e., Israel, which will "come to life" when the exile ends (Ez. 37:14).

53:9 "He had done no violence." See Matt. 21:12; Mk. 11:15-16; Lk. 19:45; Lk. 19:27; Matt. 10:34 and Lk. 12:51; then judge for yourself whether this passage is truly consistent with the New Testament account of Jesus.

53:10 "He shall see his seed." The Hebrew word for "seed", used in this verse, always refers to physical descendants in our Jewish Scriptures. See, e.g., Gen. 12:7; Gen. 15:13; Gen. 46:6; Ex. 28:43. A different word, generally translated as "sons", is used to refer to spiritual descendants (see Deut. 14:1, e.g.).

53:10 "He will prolong his days." Not only did Jesus die young, but how could the days be prolonged of someone who is alleged to be God?

53:11 "With his knowledge the righteous one, my Servant, will cause many to be just." Note again the correct translation: the Servant will cause many to be just, he will not "justify the many." The Jewish mission is to serve as a "light to the nations" which will ultimately lead the world to a knowledge of the one true God, this both by example (Deut. 4:5-8; Zech. 8:23) and by instructing the nations in God's Law (Isa. 2:3-4; Micah 4:2-3).

53:12 "Therefore, I will divide a portion to him with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty." If Jesus is God, does the idea of reward have any meaning? Is it not rather the Jewish people - who righteously bore the sins of the world and yet remained faithful to God (Ps. 44) - who will be rewarded, and this in the manner described more fully in Isaiah chapters 52 and 54?

[Grace Seeker]

The Mishneh Torah (משנה תורה), subtitled Yad ha-Chazaka (יד החזקה), is a code of Jewish law by one of the most important Jewish authorities.

Thank you for the information that it is important. But you didn't really answer my question. Relative to the Tanakh, how important is it? Is it on par with the Tanakh?

[thirdwatch512]

thanks for the response!! now there are some other verses that i'm wondering about.. how do you explain these? (they seem to confirm that the messiah will be crucified and die for our sins.)

Zechariah 12:10-14
Zechariah 13:6
Psalm 22:1
Psalm 22:14-18

[lavikor201]

Thank you for the information that it is important. But you didn't really answer my question. Relative to the Tanakh, how important is it? Is it on par with the Tanakh?

It is not compared to the Tanakh or Talmud. The code of Jewish law is taken from sources in the Tanakh and Talmud and compiled. It basically is the Tanakh and Talmud.

Zechariah 12:10-14

ANALYSIS OF ZECHARIAH 12:10

10. "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication, and they will look onto Me whom (et asher) they have pierced and they will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep for Him like the weeping over a first born. 11. In that day there will be a great mourning in Jerusalem like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12. and the land will mourn every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself; and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself; and their wives by themselves..."

The Christian reading of this passage is somewhat problematic. The words "Me" and "Him" makes it quite obvious that the text is speaking of two different subjects. The gospel of John acknowledged this and therefore rendered the passage as, "they shall look on Him whom they pierced." This New Testament mistranslation of Zechariah in and of itself demonstrates that the New Testament is fallacious.




To interpret this passage that at some future time the "Jewish people shall look unto Me (G-d/Jesus) whom they (the Jewish people) pierced" does not seem to be what John had in mind. It is important to note that according to John, Zechariah's prophesy was fulfilled at the time that the Roman soldiers pierced the side of Jesus. As it says in John 19:36, "For these things came to pass that the scripture might be fulfilled." John saw the two different subjects of Zechariah's passage as the Roman soldiers and Jesus.

"They (the Roman soldiers) shall look on Him (Jesus) whom they (the Roman soldiers) pierced.

There is an additional problem in this passage. The Hebrew words "et asher" are not found very often in scripture. When they do occur together the phrase is read as "concerning whom" or "concerning that" but never as "whom". You can see this by reading the Hebrew original of Ezekiel 36:27. (It is also interesting to note that the Septuagint does not translate "et asher" as "whom." Its translation does not at all resemble the Christian interpretation.)




The correct translation of Zechariah 12:10 should be.

"they will look onto Me concerning whom they have pierced and they will mourn for him"

This is consistent with the two subjects. By reviewing the context we can also understand of whom this passage is speaking. Starting with the beginning of Zechariah chapter 12 the prophet speaks of a time when the nations of the world will be gathered against Jerusalem to destroy it (Zec 12:3). On that day, G-d Himself will defend Jerusalem and destroy all of its enemies (Zec 12:4-9). G-d will pour out a spirit of grace and supplication toward the Jews. Grace is requested from G-d and supplication are directed to G-d.



This new spirit will motivate the Jewish nation to look towards G-d concerning those Jews (collective Jewish Martyrs) (see Hosea 11:1 for the Jewish people described as him. See Ex.1 etc. verbs of oppression in singular. Cf. Deut 32, Hos 8:3 and Ex. 19:2) who have been killed in battle prior to G-d's divine intervention in fighting our adversaries.

All the inhabitants of Jerusalem will mourn. This has obviously not yet been fulfilled, now or when the Roman soldier looked at Jesus.


This understanding is validated by the scriptural description that this mourning in Jerusalem would be "like the mourning of Hadadrimmom in the Valley of Magiddo." This refers to the death of King Josiah who was killed in battle with Pharaoh Neco (2 Kings 23:29-30). After his death all of Judah and Jerusalem mourned for him (2 Chron 35:22-25). In the same way that the Jews mourned over King Josiah who died in battle so too will the Jewish people in the future mourn over their war dead.

Zechariah 13:6

Read this:

http://www.messiahtruth.com/zec13.html

Psalm 22:1

Let's see if you can accept that this entire Psalm is of the Moshiach, because once you read the entire psalm, you will see that if you want this person to be Jesus, then you need to also accept that:

1) Jesus declares that he is not G-d, but that he loves and worships the one G-d.
2) Jesus declares his defectiveness and his unworthiness before G-d.
3) Jesus acknowledges that the Patriarchs were superior to him.
4) Jesus declares that it was the non-Jews, the enemies of Israel, who plotted against him and sought his destruction.
5) Jesus didn't want to die and begged G-d over and over again while on the cross to get him out of there!
6) Jesus cried out to the Jewish people to serve HaShem only, to glorify Him alone, that every Jew should praise HaShem as their One and only G-d.
7) Jesus admits to having made a vow, and declares he will one day atone for that.

This is but the tip of the iceburg!

I actually translated and wrote out all of the verses and how to have it be Jesus, and show that in every instance, he clearly says he isn't a diety, or even supernatural, nor even worthy of being in the same class as the Jewish patriarchs, and that it is G-d alone who deserves all praise. But it ended up being pretty long and I didn't want to take up so much disk space unless the moderator allows it. But it does paint an interesting picture!

So if you want this "piercing" to be Jesus, fine! But then you also have to remove all supernatural attributes and deification from him as well.

Ok?

----------------------

22:2 - "My G-d, my G-d, for what purpose have You forsaken me, and my crying words are far from my Help?"

(Here we have Jesus on the cross, a distraught man feeling abandoned by G-d. He believes that his words are being ignored by G-d, far from the One who can help.)

22:3 - "My G-d, I call out by day, and You do not answer! And [I call out] at night [and You do not answer me]! And there is no inner-quiet/calm for me."

(Jesus declares that he has been feeling abandoned by G-d, not just at this instant, but day and night, over a period of time, alone and despondent. Feelings of abandonment and despair are based on fear, and it is normal for a human being who is condemned to die to be afraid and feel abandoned, and takes a tzaddik such as a Rabbi Akiva to face his execution declaring his faith in G-d.)

22:4 "But it is You Who are holy, [it is You] Who inhabits the praises of Israel."

(Jesus is declaring that only G-d is the expression of "kedushah", this experiance that is beyond the grasp of humanity, including himself, and that Israel has always declares it's praises to G-d alone and no other.)

22:5 "It was with You that our fathers felt secure, [trusting], and you provided for them [delivering them from their distress]."

(Here Jesus is declaring that just as G-d helped the Patriarchs out of their time of trouble, he too wanted to be saved from this hour of terror. But unlike them, he did not feel very secure, or trusting, for his feelings of abandonment are immense).

22:6 "It was to You that they cried out, and they escaped danger because of You. They trusted in You and were not dissapointed [in their expectation of deliverance]."

(Jesus is declaring that only G-d can help him, just as he helped the Patriarchs. Jesus is declaring that not by his righteousness, but the righteousness of the Patriarchs may he be delivered from this terror. It is a formula that every Jew uses as part of the Amidah and Tachanun, knowing that we don't measure up to their righteousness, but may we be delivered through the memory of their righteousness.)


22:7 "But [compared to them] I am a worm, and not a man, I am scorned of men and despised by the nation."

(Jesus declares that he recognizes that he is not at the level of spirituality as the Patriarchs, asks G-d to deliver him from his terror on their righteousness even though he does not deserve it. And the Jewish people, he says, declare that he is not worthy, they they want nothing to do with him.)

22:8 "All those who see me, scorn me. The reject me with a sneer of the lip and their shaking head."

(Jesus is acknowledging that everyone, without exception, reject him. Mocking him, belittling him, or shaking the head, wondering how someone could fall so far. He is friendless and alone, with only G-d to talk to.)

22:9 ["They are saying:] 'Let us toss it to HaShem! He will deliver it, He will save it', [and they mockingly say] 'He takes pleasure in him'."

(Jesus is saying that his enemies are planning to rip him off of the cross, since he already said the "My G-d, my G-d, while he was on the cross, and this comes next. And they now want to do something really nasty, just to prove that G-d has no real interest in this man, treating him as though he is not a man, as Jesus recounted in the previous 2 verses. Now what could be nastier than a crucifixion? [shudder!])

As a side note, "gohl" [cast/wrest] implies difficulty in holding onto something before casting an object, pulling it away before tossing it aside)

22:10 "For it was You thrust me from the womb, [it was You Who] gave me hope [while I was nursing] upon my mother's breast."

(Jesus is declaring that while he may not have wanted to be born, and maybe his birth was not an easy one, still, as far as he could remember, he always trusted in the One G-d, that G-d would always be there to help when Jesus needed it. And he really needed help now.)

22:11 "It was upon You that I was sent from the the uterus, from the womb of my mother. You are my G-d."

(Jesus is declaring that he has always been drawn to G-d, even before he was born, that he had an innate knowing and devout experience of G-d, even while in the womb, declaring that the One G-d is his G-d too!)

22:12 "Be not far from me, for misfortune is imminent, since there is no help."

(This repeats the theme of verse 2-3, where Jesus feels that he has been abandoned, and declares that there is no human help that can get him out of this mess, and that if G-d doesn't come through, the G-d he has always believed in, then he will soon die.)

22:13 "Many bulls have come around me, the brave ones of Bashan have encircled me!"

(Jesus is noting that the powerful ones of the non-Jews are all around him, for Bulls are typically representative of powerful nations, just as 70 bulls were sacrificed for the 70 powerful nations in the Temple. Bashan was, at the time of this Psalm, one of those nations. Jesus was telling G-d that the place where he was being crucified were full of goyim of various kinds who wanted him dead. Blast those Romans! [darn] those Greeks!)

22:14 "They open up their mouth against me, they are a lion, ravening, roaring."

(Here, Jesus is saying how all of the enemies of the Jews who are also his enemies and have put him in this predicament, are "roaring", attacking him in unison, seeking his destruction as the non-Jewish enemies have plotted for his death).

22:15 "I am spilling out, like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has become like wax that is melting within my deepest parts."

(Here, Jesus is saying that he is like water, which has no form of it's own, for he feels like he has no support from man or G-d. Even his limbs no longer are of any use, for he is feels crippled, weak, and despairs, his heart poured out to the One G-d).

22:16 "My strength is dried up like a clay shard, and my tongue feels glued to my palate. And You have set me to be covered with the dust of death."

(Jesus feels that his limited strength is failing, he is thirsty and requires water to survive, he knows that without G-d saving him, that he will soon die.)

(Ok, I will let the next verse read "pierce" just for the fun of it!)

22:17 "For dogs have already surrounded me. A company of evil doers who are piercing my hands and feet"

(Jesus is saying that while he is on the cross, non Jews, or "dogs" (See Matthew) are sorrounding him and piercing his hands and feet.)

22:18 "I recall to myself all of my "bones" They (the evil doers) behold this and look at me."

(Jesus is recalling the past of those who came before who are long dead (as he did in verse 5), and the evil non-Jews who did this to him see this and stare in bewilderment that he is not crying for them to let him go, but is instead recounting the deads of the righteous Jews who are the foundation of Israel)

22:19 "They divide my garments among themselves, casting lots for my clothing."

(Here Jesus is declaring that the non-Jews, the enemies of the jewish people, are taking his property, and they are even gambling to see who can get the best of these expensive garments.)

22:20 "But You HaShem, do not be far off. You are my strength. Hasten to help me!"

(Jesus is saying that he is but mortal, weak, and dying, and that only the One G-d can help, for only He is the true source of all strength.)

22:21 "Deliver my soul from the sword, and my one and only from the power of the dog"

(Here, Jesus is praying that he not die by the sword, and that the people he was yechid/united with should not be overpowered by their enemies as he has been.)

22:22 Save me from the lions mouth, for you have already heard me from the horns of the Re'emin")

(Jesus is saying that the evil doers (See verse 14) who seek his death and the death of the Jewish people are upon him. Jesus doesn't want to die and cries out for deliverance, just as he has recounted again and again asking to be saved.)

22:23 "I will declare Your Name to my bretheren, I will praise You in the midst of the congregations with songs proclaiming Your mighty acts."

(Here, Jesus is saying that if he survives this, he will speak of HaShem to the Jewish people, praising HaShem to all of the congregations of Jews everywhere, and speaking not of himself, but only of the greatness of HaShem.)

22:24 "You [Jewish people] who are in awe of HaShem, praise Him with songs proclaiming His mighty acts. All of you children of Jacob, glorify Him (G-d) and stand in awe of Him (G-d), all of you people of Israel!"

(Here, Jesus turn his atttention away from himself and cries out to the Jewish people to do what he has promised to do, to praise HaShem only, and serve Him in all of His ways.)

22:25 "For He (G-d) has neither despised the nor abhored the lowliness of the poor, nor has He hid His presence from him, and when he cried to Him, He heard!

(Here, Jesus is declaring that blessed are the poor for they will know G-d and he will respond. In this way, he is recalling his sermon on the mount and declaring himself as an "ahni", a poor man who has nothing of his own)

22:26 "From You comes my praise, in the great congregation I will pay my vows, in the presence of those who are in awe of him"

(Here, Jesus is declaring that any praises that he recieves is by way of HaShem, and not of anything that he has done. He is also saying that one day, he will come before G-d fearing Sanhedrin, and will pay his "neder" (a vow). A Jew who makes a vow is required to bring an atonement for having done so. It's a sin with a method of correction. Perhaps this relates to his promise to come back?)

22:27 "Let the meek eat and be satisfied. Let them praise HaShem, those who seek Him, may your hearts be alive forever"

(Here we have Jesus speaking of the humble Jews, that they should come together, celebrate, and bench together. He speaks of those who seek to serve HaShem and no other G-d. And declares that their passion should be the type of passion that should live forever, to serve the One G-d.

After all, if you want to give this psalm to Jesus, you have to give him the entire psalm!

Psalm 22:14-18

Psalms 22:19 (18 in some versions) reads: "They divide my clothes among them, and for my garment they cast lots." A misunderstanding by the author of the Gospel of John influenced the way he applied this verse to his version of the division-of-the-clothing incident (John 19:24; cf. Matthew 27:35, Mark 15:24, Luke 23:34).


The author of John misinterpreted the Hebrew parallelism as referring to two separate acts. In biblical poetry, which is based on parallel structure, the repetition of an idea does not indicate its duplication in reality (cf. Zechariah 9:9). Seeking to harmonize this crucifixion story with the psalm, John states that the soldiers divided Jesus' garments among themselves, but that they could not divide the inner garment, which was seamless, so they cast lots for it. "They said therefore to one another: 'Let us not tear it, but let us decide by lot whose it will be'" that the Scripture might be fulfilled: 'They divided my outer garment among themselves, and for my apparel they cast lots'" (John 19:24). Evidently, John created this legendary casting of lots to meet what he believed to be a messianic requirement of Psalm 22. In this way, the crucifixion tradition was rounded out to agree with what John thought was the prophetic message of this psalm.
But, what is the truth of the New Testament claims? If Jesus was scourged as part of the crucifixion process and then his clothes were once again placed on his wounded bloody body (Matthew 27:26, 31; Mark 15:15, 20, John 19:1) why would the soldiers want to divide up these blood soaked garments? Indeed, if the scourging continued along the route to the crucifixion, Jesus' clothing would be nothing but bloody rags of no value to the soldiers. For that matter, it is questionable if the soldiers would have placed a purple robe on the scourged body of Jesus. Purpled dyed material was extremely expensive and reserved for royalty. It is probably for this reason that the story arose that he was wrapped in a purple robe, the color symbolic of royalty. The truth is that there is no truth to the New Testament claims.

[thirdwatch512]

wow, thanks so much for the response. :) it seems that you put a lot of time in it.. it's great to see that you're devout!!

God bless, and thanks!

[rebelishaulman]

snakelegs, for you:

Sanhedrin 44a: R. Abba b. Zabda said: Even though [the people] have sinned, they are still [called] 'Israel'. R. Abba said: Thus people say, A myrtle, though it stands among reeds, is still a myrtle, and it is so called.
________________________

thirdwatch,

To be considered Moshiach, you must complete every requirement, something Jesus did not do. The "second coming" has no source in Jewish text, and we believe that G-d's messenger will not need two tries to accomplish G-d's will.

It is very easy to manipulate verses to make it seem someone is the Moshiach. My best example would be:

Disclaimer: THIS IS A JOKE, we do not believe Judas to be Messiah. :p.

We in the yeshiva have made a serious mistake. We have been waiting for Messiah but in fact we missed him 2000 years ago. How could we have overlooked what is clearly written in our Scripture?

Judas is King Messiah, as foretold by the Patriarch Jacob, "The scepter shall not depart from Judah (Genesis 49:10)." "Judah is His holy one (Psalms 114:2)." "Judah shall be first (Judges 20:18)."

The world will know G-d when Judas reigns, as it says, "Declare to the cities of Judah, Behold your G-d (Isaiah 40:9)."

Judas has been maligned for 2000 years, a man of ugly reputation. "He was despised and rejected of men ...we hid our faces from him. He was despised, and we esteemed him not (Isaiah 53:3)."

Judas betrayed Jesus by a kiss, as it says, "He shall kiss me with the kisses of his mouth (Song of Songs 1:2)."

His act of betrayal saves souls, as it says, "the betrayer is a ramsom for the upright (Proverbs 21:18)."

Judas said, "I have sinned" and this was foreshadowed by King David who said, "I have sinned" (Psalms 51:5)

He "went and hanged himself" as Isaiah predicted of the Suffering Servant, "if he will make himself a guilt offering" (53:10).

Judas as an unblemished lamb atones for our sins, as it says, "Israel is a harlot, let Judah not be guilty (Hosea 4:15)."

After Judas was hanged, he "fell headlong" in the field. He was prophecized to not remain hanging, for "you shall not leave his corpse on the tree (Deuteronomy 21:23)." His fall shows he is chosen by G-d , as it says, "G-d supports those who fall (Psalms 145:14)." By falling, he fulfilled "Judah went down from his brothers (Genesis 38:1)."

As a result of falling to his death, he glorified the Holy One: "He burst asunder... and his bowels gushed out" as it says, "all my innards shall bless His holy name" (Psalms 103:1)."

The spilling of Judas' innards was foreshadowed by the Temple sacrifices, as it says, "The priest shall wash the innards in water (Leviticus 1:13)."
His body fell into a field, as it says, "He makes me lie down in green pastures (Psalms 23:2)."

Judas will return to his people in a Second Coming, as it says, "Judah will arise (Judges 1:2)." "G-d, hear the voice of Judah and bring him to his people (Genesis 33:7)." "The tribes of Israel his companions, and I will put them together with the stick of Judah (Ezekiel 37:19)." "I will cause the captivity of Judah and the captivity of Israel to return...And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity (Jeremiah 32:7-8)."

His death cannot be permanent, as it says, "G-d will not destroy Judah for David his servant's sake (Kings II 8:19)." "Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely (Jeremiah 23:6)."

Judas will return to judge the world, as it says, "the enemies of Judah shall be cut off (Isaiah 11:13)."

Note: The flaws in this essay are shared by the missionary "proofs" for Jesus in the Hebrew Bible.

[ManchesterFolk]

Hahaha! Jews for Judas! LOL, a wonderful explanation Rabbi!

[Grace Seeker]

I too appreciate the joke. And also get your point.

As to the Moshiach, don't you think that when the Moshiach comes it may be possible that you will look back and see some of the verses that thought were to apply to him as not applying the way you now think they will, and that some that you don't now see as applying, as applying after all. In fact, once you have an experience of the Moshiach, don't you think it highly likely that may read everything in an entirely new light of the new knowledged gained from being in the actual, rather than anticipated, presence of the Moshiach?

[Grace Seeker]

It is not compared to the Tanakh or Talmud. The code of Jewish law is taken from sources in the Tanakh and Talmud and compiled. It basically is the Tanakh and Talmud.

So, you are saying that the writings which make up the Mishnah, the Talmud and the Torah are all of equal authority. Do I understand you correctly? Or is this one of those things where I just need to learn a whole new way of thinking about the way you view scripture? (Just like I often think that our Muslim brothers and sisters do not really have the slightest clue as to how we Christians read the Bible, it being completely different from how they read the Qu'ran.)

[thirdwatch512]

thanks so much for the response rabbi! definetely an interesting ting on judas.

i must admit, although i am not a jew i strongly admire how in judaism there is an answer for everything. any time i read an atheist/jewish debate, the jews always rebutt any alledged contradiction, and this and that. i think jews know more about their torah then any other religion knows about their holy book. lol


anyways now i do have one question, although it might appear a bit wierd.

a lot of people become christians because of dreams, visions, sighting of the virgin mary through apparations, and so forth. like let's take egypt.. in the 90's there was this church, and on top of the church there was a ghost in the form of the virgin mary.. the next day, 500 people got baptized!

in mexico, there's a lady who didn't know how to read or write. now though, she says she talks to Jesus and can write in any language. one person from tibet i think it was came to test her and started speaking their native language.. and she knew it!

there have been thousands upon thousands of statues of the virgin mary and such weeping!

now i might sound stupid to believe these, but i hoenstly do. like people will ask god to show them the truth, and they are brought to christianity. also, if you just look on youtube there are hundreds upon thousands of videos that show some of these interesting things.. like it's amazing lol

assuming that these are true, how would you, as a jew, explain them?

[ManchesterFolk]

Very interesting question! I cannot wait to here the response, hopefully he may have a source explaining visions. However, we will have to wait, since it is probably the Sabbath for all of our Jewish members.

[Grace Seeker]

assuming that these are true, how would you, as a jew, explain them?

I'm interested not so much as to how how he explains them as a Jew, but how he reacts to them as a clergy person.

As a Christian I explain them as differing forms of religious hysteria. As a member of the clergy, I find them not worth the time it takes to report them. Recall, thirdwatch, amazing though they are, that we see these sorts of things in nearly all religions, not just Christianity. Though I have no doubt miracle really do occur (and not just in the Bible, but even present day) I much prefer quite miracles to those that get so much hype.

[thirdwatch512]

I'm interested not so much as to how how he explains them as a Jew, but how he reacts to them as a clergy person.

As a Christian I explain them as differing forms of religious hysteria. As a member of the clergy, I find them not worth the time it takes to report them. Recall, thirdwatch, amazing though they are, that we see these sorts of things in nearly all religions, not just Christianity. Though I have no doubt miracle really do occur (and not just in the Bible, but even present day) I much prefer quite miracles to those that get so much hype.

haha true, although i haven't seen any miracles outside of christianity.. for islam i have seen the word "allah" but as we all know that is simply the arabic word for God. in hinduism there's a temple in india and every year there's this holiday and the cow goes to the temple and it's interesting lol. as for buddhism, i have heard tons of stories of people having dreams of buddha, but in these dreams the buddha takes them to jesus, and says "this is the truth."

my church has 5 ex buddhists, 8 ex muslims, and 2 ex hindus.. and half of these people have joined because of some kind of miracle they have experienced, or dreams, or something of that nature. like i was talking to one of the ex muslims and she said that she had a dream and in that dream there was mohammad and jesus.. but mohammad couldn't look jesus in the eye. then the next night she had a dream, and in that dream jesus was there, and he was chatting with her, and jesus told her to follow Him, because he is the truth. now i go to a big catholic church that's in a urban residential area, and she lived like a block away from it. so she went to the church, and eventually got baptized and confirmed, and now she's a christian!

i used to think that these dreams were stupid, and bogus.. until i've actually hear stories of people having dreams, or experiencing something amazing. and 47% of converts to chrisitianity convert because they have dreams of jesus, or they see apparations, or something of that sort.. and 47% is a lot! and chrisitnaity is booming, especially in africa and asia. christianity is the fastest growing religion by number, 2nd fastest by percentage. and to know that 47% of these ppl come because of dreams, apparations, and so forth.. it's amazing.

[rebelishaulman]

thanks so much for the response rabbi! definetely an interesting ting on judas.

i must admit, although i am not a jew i strongly admire how in judaism there is an answer for everything. any time i read an atheist/jewish debate, the jews always rebutt any alledged contradiction, and this and that. i think jews know more about their torah then any other religion knows about their holy book. lol


anyways now i do have one question, although it might appear a bit wierd.

a lot of people become christians because of dreams, visions, sighting of the virgin mary through apparations, and so forth. like let's take egypt.. in the 90's there was this church, and on top of the church there was a ghost in the form of the virgin mary.. the next day, 500 people got baptized!

in mexico, there's a lady who didn't know how to read or write. now though, she says she talks to Jesus and can write in any language. one person from tibet i think it was came to test her and started speaking their native language.. and she knew it!

there have been thousands upon thousands of statues of the virgin mary and such weeping!

now i might sound stupid to believe these, but i hoenstly do. like people will ask god to show them the truth, and they are brought to christianity. also, if you just look on youtube there are hundreds upon thousands of videos that show some of these interesting things.. like it's amazing lol

assuming that these are true, how would you, as a jew, explain them?

What a question! Assuming they are real, and I doubt they are, I think I should point you to this verse:

"If there arise in the midst of thee a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and he give thee a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, of which he spoke unto thee saying: 'Let us go after other gods [including other ways and beliefs] which thou hast not known, and let us serve them', thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or unto that dreamer of dreams; for the L-rd your G-d putteth you to proof, to know whether ye do love the L-rd your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul. After the L-rd your G-d shall ye walk, and Him shall ye fear, and His commandments shall ye keep, and unto His voice shall ye hearken, and Him shall ye serve, and unto Him shall ye cleave."
(Deuteronomy 13:1-4)

I hope I need not, to explain the verse above.

[thirdwatch512]

lol well thanks for the response!

[snakelegs]

how important is intent (kavanah?) in judaism?

[rebelishaulman]

how important is intent (kavanah?) in judaism?

By asking about kavanah are you refering to prayer? The word kavanah is generally used most of the time as the mindset for prayer translated as either intent or concentration used for prayer. It can however be refered to some other things.

[Grace Seeker]

Am I correct that the present text used for translating the Tanakh into English (or any other language) is known as the Masoretic text? Are there other "families" of texts besides this one?

What role, if any, does the Septuagint play in textual criticism for present day Jews? Do Greek speaking Jews still use it? If not, when and why was it abandoned? (I know the LXX is not modern Greek, but I thought it might be a good resource for helping to translate, as I understand that the oldest existing copies of the Masoretic text only date back to about 800 CE, while I believe there are some older copies of the LXX.)

[snakelegs]

By asking about kavanah are you refering to prayer? The word kavanah is generally used most of the time as the mindset for prayer translated as either intent or concentration used for prayer. It can however be refered to some other things.

now that you mention it, i guess i have only come across it in the context of prayer. is it only used by hassidic jews? it's considered extremely important, isn't it?
what other things is the word used for and is "intent" an accurate translation?
thanks.

[- Qatada -]

Hey.


Does the number 7 have any importance in judaism? or 10 cows? :?


If so, please could you elaborate, thanks. :)

[rebelishaulman]

Hey.


Does the number 7 have any importance in judaism? or 10 cows? :?


If so, please could you elaborate, thanks. :)

In Judaism we find the seven-day concept quite often. Think of the seven days of mourning, and the seven day rejoicing period following a wedding. The weekly cycle is known as the “seven days of building” –- this refers specifically to the creation of the world (“building-construction”) which took seven days (including the day of rest). The week is also known as the “seven days of the cycle.” This means that a certain cycle begins and ends each week. It is a fundamental cycle, since it is based on the very creation of the world. This cycle is ‘built in’ to the psyche of the world and its inhabitants.


It is for this reason, that when we need to mark something important, we do it over a seven-day period. When, G-d forbid, a family is mourning the loss of a loved one, they need to realize on Monday, that today’s Monday is different from last week’s Monday. On Tuesday they need to realize that it is not the same as last Tuesday, and so on, for an entire week. The same applies in joyous circumstances, at a wedding. We need to realize that life the way we knew it has changed (for the better!). We truly internalize this when it is emphasized for an entire "seven days of the cycle."


According to Kabbalah (Jewish mysticism), G-d created the world with seven divine attributes. They are: Kindness, Severity, Harmony, Perseverance, Splendor, Attachment and Royalty. Accordingly, the entire creation is a reflection of these seven attributes.


The seven attributes (Midot) are:


Chesed (Kindness) is the quality which causes one to give to those who are undeserving. We all are beneficiaries of G-d's Chesed every day.

Gevurah (Severity). G-d's attribute of discipline and justice.

Tiferet (Harmony) is the ability to synthesize differing, and often opposing, ideas and emotions.


Netzach (Perseverance) is a person's drive to succeed. The power that motivates a person to complete a project which he/she has begun despite opposition from within and/or others.


Hod (Humility) -- the name speaks for itself.


Yesod (Foundation) is the attribute which allows you to establish a relationship with one who is lower than yourself (intellectually or otherwise) and give of yourself to that person.

Malchut (Royalty) is the exact opposite; it is the attribute which allows you to establish a relationship with one who is greater than yourself (intellectually or otherwise) and receive from that person.
http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=228&o=81250

what other things is the word used for and is "intent" an accurate translation?

Kavanah could possibly be used for studying or preperation for any mitzvot, but prayer is when the word is used.

Am I correct that the present text used for translating the Tanakh into English (or any other language) is known as the Masoretic text? Are there other "families" of texts besides this one?

What role, if any, does the Septuagint play in textual criticism for present day Jews? Do Greek speaking Jews still use it? If not, when and why was it abandoned? (I know the LXX is not modern Greek, but I thought it might be a good resource for helping to translate, as I understand that the oldest existing copies of the Masoretic text only date back to about 800 CE, while I believe there are some older copies of the LXX.)

All the sages opposed the Torah being translated. I am not sure what the Greek Jewish community does or what translation they use.

[Grace Seeker]

All the sages opposed the Torah being translated. I am not sure what the Greek Jewish community does or what translation they use.

So, why was it translated? The LXX was created 200 years before Christianity even existed.


And don't Jews today translate the Tanakh? I know many Jews who do not understand Hebrew, how would they have access to the scriptures without it being translated?

[rebelishaulman]

So, why was it translated? The LXX was created 200 years before Christianity even existed.

At the beginning of the period of the Second Beit Hamikdash, the Second Temple, the people of Israel lived under Persian dominion. After the fall of the Persian Empire, Greece inherited her place, and Israel was subjugated to Greece. Ptolemy, one of the Greek Kings who succeeded Alexander (The 'Great') of Macedonia, wanted the Jewish Sages to translate the Torah into Greek.

The way he went about it, however, proved his motives were highly questionable. He did not assemble the Jewish scholars all in one place so that they might consult each other on the translation. In the Talmud it is related:

'King Ptolemy once gathered 72 Elders. He placed them in 72 chambers, each of them in a separate one, without revealing to them why they were summoned. He entered each one's room and said: 'Write for me the Torah of Moshe, your teacher.' G-d put it in the heart of each one to translate identically as all the others did' (Tractate Megillah 9).

Ptolemy found that each translation was exactly the same as the other. Even in places where the Sages intentionally altered the literal translation, the results were still identical;

this constituted an "open miracle" and public sanctification of G-d's Name.

If the interpretations of the Elders had varied widely, it would not blemish either the Torah or its interpreters in Jewish eyes, since we know that the Torah is open to different interpretations. To non-Jews, however, any dispute in interpreting the Torah would cast blemish on the Torah, and on the Torah Scholars who interpret it. G-d in His infinite mercy, allowed all 72 scholars to translate the Torah identically, thereby foiling (touche!) the evil plan of Ptolemy.

Examine additional aspects of this incident: A true miracle of translation.

The day on which the 72 Elders concluded their Greek translation of the Torah, the 8th of Tevet, was a day of sorrow for Israel, despite the clear hand of G-d in the events of the day. Although G-d's Providence on behalf of His people was made manifest that day, and though the matter evoked general wonder in non-Jewish eyes, the day was nevertheless a very tragic day. The sages call it as tragic a day for Israel as the day on which the Golden Calf was made.

In Megilat Ta'anit, the Sages described the event as follows:

On the 8th of Tevet, the Torah was rendered into Greek during the days of King Ptolemy, and darkness descended upon the world for three days.' To what may the matter be likened? To a lion captured and imprisoned. Before his imprisonment, all feared him and fled from his presence. Then, all came to gaze at him and said, 'Where is this one's strength?


Likewise the Torah, as long as the Torah was in Hebrew and was interpreted by the Sages, it evoked reverence, and many feared to cast blemish upon it. Even the non-Jews who desired to study the Torah, had no contact with the Torah until he or she had acquired a knowledge of the Holy tongue and the prescribed ways for understanding the Torah.

Once the Torah was imprisoned in the Greek translation, it was as if the Torah were divested of reverence. Whoever wished to, could now gaze at the Torah. Anyone who wanted to find fault with its logic, could now do so, based on the translation. The Sages, therefore, likened the event of this day, to the day on which the Golden Calf was made. For just as the Golden Calf had no reality, and yet its servants regarded it as having real substance, likewise the translation, devoid of the true substance of Torah, allowed non-Jews to imagine that they already knew the Torah.
LINK

And don't Jews today translate the Tanakh? I know many Jews who do not understand Hebrew, how would they have access to the scriptures without it being translated?

Well that is today, but before the wave of assimilation arose on our people, every Jew who followed the Torah and was not Hellenized knew Hebrew. Now it is nessesary for the translations, but at the same time we really need to make sure they understand how Hebrew is different from english. The best example I can give you is one I read:

If you translate "It was raining cats and dogs outside." in Hebrew. The person reading will translate it to mean that cats and dogs were litterally flying onto the earth. Something will always get lost in translation if you do not read the Tanach in Hebrew.

[Grace Seeker]

Truly very interesting. It seems I have been misinformed these many years.

I thought that it was the Jews themselves who wanted to have a copy of the scriptures in Greek as so many of them were affected by the diaspora into Hellenistic lands. I had heard of the miracle of the translation, but again I thought that this was seen as something glorious and a proof that the Jews looked to, not that the Torah was true (that of course being assumed before hand), but that the translation was accurate. but I see that you understand it to be a travesty. If I read you correctly, you are also saying that it is intentionally inaccurate, that these scholars actually intentionally mis-translated some passages and all ended up doing it the same. Or maybe I misunderstood that part of your comments?


So, the LXX is considered a bad translation? You commented that today Jews are glad to have their scriptures in their native tongues. Would not the LXX have been a good thing then, just as translations are today, even if Ptolemy wanted it for evil purposes. After all, G-d is able to take what one intends for evil and still bring good out of it. I would think that while Ptolemy's intent was evil that what G-d helped the sages to produce was nonetheless still good.

[rebelishaulman]

If I read you correctly, you are also saying that it is intentionally inaccurate, that these scholars actually intentionally mis-translated some passages and all ended up doing it the same. Or maybe I misunderstood that part of your comments?

More like interpreting it differently. The Hebrew remained the same, but the original greek translation which many of the Christian Bibles are from today. The sages probably had this in mind when they translated it with different wording such which meant the same thing, like liked and adored but could make a difference from a passage in the Talmud that states if a heathen (pagans at that time) is able to understand the Torah, they will try and critisize it and will disgrace it.

This statement seems pretty accurate with the amount of people who hate and critisize the Tanakh/Bible today and make ignorant claims of contradiction.

So, the LXX is considered a bad translation? You commented that today Jews are glad to have their scriptures in their native tongues. Would not the LXX have been a good thing then, just as translations are today, even if Ptolemy wanted it for evil purposes. After all, G-d is able to take what one intends for evil and still bring good out of it. I would think that while Ptolemy's intent was evil that what G-d helped the sages to produce was nonetheless still good.

The translation other than some points are fine. The english translations have been corrected but some Christian Bibles still have errors from the translation, and the majority of languages do not have the proper word for about 99% of each word in the Bible. It is like another reality language wise.

[ManchesterFolk]

Do you believe God has emotions?

[rebelishaulman]

Do you believe God has emotions?

Hashem has no emotions.

When we say Hashem gets "angry" or Hashem "loves" it is not meant literally. It means that Hashem acts in such a way that it feels to us like He is angry or emotionally happy.

Kind of like when you say about your computer that "it doesn’t like this software" - you don’t mean the computer has emotion; you mean that the computer acted in a way that makes you feel as if it didn’t like the software.

So too when we say Hashem likes or doesn’t like something, we do not mean it literally - we only mean that Hashem acts in a way that feels to us as if He liked or disliked something.

[Grace Seeker]

Hashem has no emotions.

When we say Hashem gets "angry" or Hashem "loves" it is not meant literally. It means that Hashem acts in such a way that it feels to us like He is angry or emotionally happy.

Kind of like when you say about your computer that "it doesn’t like this software" - you don’t mean the computer has emotion; you mean that the computer acted in a way that makes you feel as if it didn’t like the software.

So too when we say Hashem likes or doesn’t like something, we do not mean it literally - we only mean that Hashem acts in a way that feels to us as if He liked or disliked something.

Does this mean that in addition to not accepting the source of the comment, that when Christians say "G-d is love", that Jews do not even agree with the concept as even being something which can be attributed to G-d?

[rebelishaulman]

Does this mean that in addition to not accepting the source of the comment, that when Christians say "G-d is love", that Jews do not even agree with the concept as even being something which can be attributed to G-d?

The best answer would be: When we use the verb "loves" in reference to G-d we dont mean literal love. G-d has no emotions. We mean merely a description of how He treats people, that is, in a way that if we would treat people like that, we would say that we "love" them. it means a status of importance that G-d bestows on people, where He will sometimes even overturn the laws of heaven and earth for them. But it does not invovle emotions.

[Grace Seeker]

Before the wave of assimilation arose on our people, every Jew who followed the Torah and was not Hellenized knew Hebrew. Now it is nessesary for the translations, but at the same time we really need to make sure they understand how Hebrew is different from english. The best example I can give you is one I read:

If you translate "It was raining cats and dogs outside." in Hebrew. The person reading will translate it to mean that cats and dogs were litterally flying onto the earth. Something will always get lost in translation if you do not read the Tanach in Hebrew.

I understand the difficulty associated with any translation. I have used the above example myself in other contexts.

The link you provided made reference to another passage on which I would appreciate your commentary:

there are many verses in the Torah which, if translated literally, would be misunderstood by the non-Jews, and would cause them to deride the Torah sanctity. These verses had to be translated in such a way to preserve the intent of the verse rather than the literal translation.

For example, the sages translated "We will make Man" with "I will make Man" so that the non-Jews would not say that there are more than one G-d. Once again, however, all 72 sages translated all of these difficult verses with the same variation.

Now I recognize this as a reference to Genesis 1:26. The version I normally use translates it "Then G-d said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness'." Now, never have I heard the passage interpreted to mean that there is more than one G-d even though it uses plural pronouns in English.

So, I have several questions:
1) What do you think of the translation that I normally use? How would you word it if you were translating it yourself?

2) How do you understand the passage?

3) While you and I would agree that G-d is one, at least based on my reading of Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear, O Israel: The L-RD our G-d, the L-RD is one.", what sense do you make of the plural pronouns which occur not only in Genesis 1:26, but again in Genesis 3:22 and 11:7?

4) Are these plural pronouns also present in Hebrew? Are they present in any other passages that I might not be aware of?

[rebelishaulman]

The words in that verse would be better described as "we" and "our", however, there is something called the "majestic plural," i.e. a King speaks on behalf of his kingdom in a plural form. An example is Isaiah 6:6, where G-d says among His retinue of angels "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?"

Rashi has a beautiful explanation: G-d is modeling proper conduct to the reader by showing that one should consult inferiors before acting. Only G-d created man, but G-d showed respect to His subordinates.

[snakelegs]

snakelegs, for you:

Sanhedrin 44a: R. Abba b. Zabda said: Even though [the people] have sinned, they are still [called] 'Israel'. R. Abba said: Thus people say, A myrtle, though it stands among reeds, is still a myrtle, and it is so called.

thank you! i never knew this - i appreciate your research.

[Grace Seeker]

The words in that verse would be better described as "we" and "our", however, there is something called the "majestic plural," i.e. a King speaks on behalf of his kingdom in a plural form. An example is Isaiah 6:6, where G-d says among His retinue of angels "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?"

Rashi has a beautiful explanation: G-d is modeling proper conduct to the reader by showing that one should consult inferiors before acting. Only G-d created man, but G-d showed respect to His subordinates.

I thought of the Isaiah verse too, but thought there that perhaps the "us" refered to the angels who were also present in the throne room with G-d.

So, say a little more about how the "we" and "our" are to be understood in Genesis 1. Does the Royal We fit that context? G-d is creating human kind, so it can't yet be inclusive of humanity -- though I like the idea, just don't see how it fits? Are you saying that G-d is including the rest of creation in his Royal We? "We" (i.e. all of creation) is including in the making of humankind in the image of who? G-d? or the image of creation?

[rebelishaulman]

G-d is creating human kind, so it can't yet be inclusive of humanity --

I believe he is refering to the angels. Rashi comments on Genesis 1:26 saying:

1:26. And G-d said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and they shall rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heaven and over the animals and over all the earth and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth."

RASHI:
Let us make man From here we learn the humility of the Holy One, blessed be He. Since man was created in the likeness of the angels, and they would envy him, He consulted them. And when He judges kings, He consults with His Heavenly household, for so we find regarding Ahab, that Micah said to him, (I Kings 22:19): “I saw the L-rd seated on His throne, and all the host of heaven were standing by Him, on His right and on His left.” Now do “left” or “right” apply to Him ?! But rather, [the passage means that] these [angels] were standing on the right to defend, and these [angels] were standing on the left to prosecute. Likewise, (Dan. 4:14): “By the decree of the destructive angels is the matter, and by the word of the holy ones is the edict.” Here too, He took counsel with His heavenly household. He said to them, “Among the heavenly beings, there are some in My likeness. If there are none in My likeness among the earthly beings, there will be envy among the creatures of the Creation. ” - [from Tanchuma, Shemoth 18; Gen. Rabbah 8:11, 14:13]

Let us make man Even though they [the angels] did not assist Him in His creation, and there is an opportunity for the heretics to rebel (to misconstrue the plural as a basis for their heresies), Scripture did not hesitate to teach proper conduct and the trait of humility, that a great person should consult with and receive permission from a smaller one. Had it been written: “I shall make man,” we would not have learned that He was speaking with His tribunal, but to Himself. And the refutation to the heretics is written alongside it [i. e., in the following verse:]“And G-d created (וַיִּבְרָא) ,” and it does not say,“and they created וַיִּבְרְאוּ.” - [from Gen. Rabbah 8:9]

[Grace Seeker]

Thank-you. I appreciate you expanding the commentary on the verse. I wanted to give you rep points for helping me to better see from your point of view, but I guess I need to spread them around a bit more before I can add any more to you.

[rebelishaulman]

I will be gone possibly for a long time. I have toher duties to attend to, and interfaith dialogue on the internet taking time away from Torah study is a bad thing.

Keep this thread open and once and a while I will answer questions so let the questions pile up, I will allow for myself to answer questions a certain time once and a while.

Have a good day.

[Hemoo]

that is really a big thread

i can't read all that pages but i wanted to know what is the books of faith that jews use and rely on

and i want to get all of these books in english or arabic can you give me links to that ????

[ManchesterFolk]

I'm not Jewish but:

http://www.artscroll.com/Books/fshas.html
http://www.artscroll.com/Categories/stn.html
http://www.artscroll.com/mishnah.html
http://www.artscroll.com/ramban.html
http://www.artscroll.com/sapirsteinrashi.html

[Hemoo]

I'm not Jewish but:

thank you Mr. ManchesterFolk for replying ....

[Hemoo]

i have another question about jaudiasm

1 - how does they pure their clothes from impurifications like urine and excrement , .... etc ???

2 - does jews make any sort of cleaning before prayer like ablution ???

[rebelishaulman]

i have another question about jaudiasm

1 - how does they pure their clothes from impurifications like urine and excrement , .... etc ???

A washing machine would be fine.

2 - does jews make any sort of cleaning before prayer like ablution ???

Yes. Tevilah (immersion) refers to ceremonies of ritual purity performed by religious Jews .

1. Negel vasser ("Nail water"), when getting up in the morning after a full night's sleep, or even after a lengthy nap, there is the custom to wash one's hands ritually by pouring a large cup of water over one's fingers, alternating three times.
2. Netilat yadayim ("Raising [after ritually washing] the hands") which is done prior to eating any bread with a meal. A special blessing is said. This washing is also done, without any blessing, after touching something deemed "impure" (such as one's private parts, leather shoes, or an insect or animal, or after paying a visit to a cemetery).
3. Mayim acharonim ("After-waters") a minor custom of ritually washing off the tips of one's fingers after a meal, symbolising the removal of material impurity.
4. Before blessing of Asher yatzar ("Who created [the man]"). After having gone to the bathroom (and having either urinated or defecated), the ritual washing of one's hands as a symbol of both bodily cleanliness and of removing human impurity - see Netilat yadayim above.
5. Every Kohen present has his hands ritually washed in synagogue by the Levi'im before uttering the unique priestly blessings on Jewish holidays in front of the entire congregation.
6. Immersion in a Mikvah (pool of "living water"), when a married Jewish woman immerses herself a week after her Niddah period concludes following menstruation and she wishes to resume conjugal relations with her husband. This requires special preparation.
7. The ritual of immersing in a Mikvah is required in Orthodox Judaism the day before (eve of) Yom Kippur.
8. The ritual of immersing in a Mikvah is also required when converting to Judaism.
9. During the Passover Seder the participants ritually wash their hands twice as part of the meal. (Once without a blessing in order to eat some vegetables in "purity", and once with a blessing prior to the eating of the matzah - see Netilat yadayim above.)
10. Tahara, ("Purification"), the ritual washing and cleansing, and immersion in a mikvah if possible, of a Jew's body prior to burial.

[Hemoo]

again :
1 - how does the strict jews pure their clothes from impurifications like urine and excrement , .... etc before they pray ???

is it enogh for them to use only a wash machine as you said ..

[lavikor201]

again :
1 - how does the strict jews pure their clothes from impurifications like urine and excrement , .... etc before they pray ???

is it enogh for them to use only a wash machine as you said ..

If a washing machine could wash and the clothes would still have urine, or excrement on them, then of course we would not wear the clothes while praying. If the washing machine gets out all the impurities then we have no problem because they are clean.

[Grace Seeker]

Since Hemoo has pushed it this far, let me push it over the top:

So, I lost control of my car on the way into town and ran off the road right into a hog pasture where I got stuck in the mud, along with plenty of excrement, etc. I have stuff all over the car and all over my clothes. I can't extricate the car myself, my cellphone won't work, and there are no houses visible.

Surely I don't have to wash my clothes before praying for God to send help. (Or, for that matter, before I thank him that nobody got hurt.)

[deen_2007]

^^ i think praying as in the sense that 'compulsory prayers' in certain religions is deifferent to when asking god for help when in need. when in situations like u stated, i am sure we do not need to worry about the cleansliness of ones state.

hope i made sense....may allah forgive me if i implied wrong.

[Grace Seeker]

^^ i think praying as in the sense that 'compulsory prayers' in certain religions is deifferent to when asking god for help when in need. when in situations like u stated, i am sure we do not need to worry about the cleansliness of ones state.

hope i made sense....may allah forgive me if i implied wrong.

Sure. And I expect the same answer from Lavikor. Now, what if I was on my way into town for Friday night prayers (sorry I don't know the proper name for each one of them). I get my car out of the pasture, but I still got stuff all over me and my clothes. No matter how much I try to clean-up, I'm not going to be able to do both, get clean and make prayers at my local mosque. It is a choice of one or the other. What should a good Muslim do?

ooooops, sorry, got caught up in the moment. Wrong question for this thread.


Let's change that to I'm not going to be able to both get cleaned up and make it to the local synagogue. It's one or the other. What should a good Jew do?

[deen_2007]

^^ yeah i'll wait 4 there answer. as 4 muslims...ur prayer will not be valid i dnt think...(well brothers & sisters can give a more detailed explanation)i personally will not enter a masjid/mosque or stand on a prayer mat with cloths as such..

[rebelishaulman]

Surely I don't have to wash my clothes before praying for God to send help. (Or, for that matter, before I thank him that nobody got hurt.)

No, you can speak to G-d and ask him for help anytime, in any condition, however, the required prayers of Jewish law, state that we may not pray in that fashion with excraments all over you.

^^ i think praying as in the sense that 'compulsory prayers' in certain religions is deifferent to when asking god for help when in need. when in situations like u stated, i am sure we do not need to worry about the cleansliness of ones state.

hope i made sense....may allah forgive me if i implied wrong.

Correct.

Let's change that to I'm not going to be able to both get cleaned up and make it to the local synagogue. It's one or the other. What should a good Jew do?

You would go home and clean up. Prayers are still valid if not said in a congregation, and you should not pray to G-d in that state of dirtyness. Your not aloud to even recite prayers in a bathroom or an unclean place like a dirty alley, let alone with animal dung on you.

So in other words, a good Jew would probably go back home, clean up, and recite the mandatory prayers alone, since mandatory prayers are still valid when by ones self.

[Grace Seeker]

So in other words, a good Jew would probably go back home, clean up, and recite the mandatory prayers alone, since mandatory prayers are still valid when by ones self.

I like that for all the 613 laws of Judaism, there is still a little bit of room left for grace and common sense.

[arabiyyah]

Your signature says:

Studying Torah outweighs interfaith dialogue

But how much Torah can you really study. I have read a bit of the Old Testamant and I really don't get how much you cans tudy as you say some religious jews study 21out of24 hours a day.

[rebelishaulman]

Most religious Jews study the text of the Torah on four levels as described in the Zohar:

1. Peshat - the surface or literal meaning of the actual text of the Torah.
2. Remez - allusions or allegories in the text.
3. Derash - a rabbinic or midrashic way of reading new lessons into the text, and finding a much more deep meaning.
4. Sod - the hidden mystical Kabbalistic reading of the Torah.

Not to mention that this is the study of just the Torah text. The Talmud is hundreds of times longer.

[lavikor201]

The Jews became known as the People of the Book; their love of Torah study is legendary; it has earned them the reputation as the most educated people in the history of the world.

Torah must be studied day and night according to biblical prescription: "And you shall meditate on it by day and by night."

This requires the Jew to set aside times for study every day, preferably with a partner. This day-to-day mitzvah of study -- "learning" as the vernacular has it -- made Torah the dominant feature of Jewish life, and it came to characterize the Jew throughout history.

A compulsory system of education was in place in the first century of the common era, while cavemen still stalked the North American continent. The Jews became known as the People of the Book, a title given them by Mohammed. Their love of the book is legendary and, no matter how intellectual other societies had become, they never achieved this zeal for the book.

Jewish tradition treats books as though they are living scholars themselves. The Torah is treated as a living Torah, not merely in the metaphoric sense. Jews do not leave books open, as though abandoned. That would be insensitive to their "feelings." Closed books are left face up and a lesser text is not placed on top of a more important one.

If a sacred book falls to the ground, Jewish people pick it up tenderly and kiss it, as though it were a bruised child. When the Torah is drawn from the Ark, everyone rises, as though in the presence of a great rabbi. As it passes by them, they kiss it, or throw it a kiss, in respect and affection.

If a sacred book falls to the ground, Jews pick it up tenderly and kiss it, like a bruised child.

If the Torah scroll is accidentally dropped, the entire congregation present at the time fasts on a chosen day and gives charity. When the Torah scroll ages and its letters begin to crack, it is reverently buried.

The reverence that was rendered the Holy Scroll eventually filtered down to everyday volumes. When Bibles and other religious books become old and unusable they are, like the Torah itself, buried in a grave close to a scholar, or deposited in a vault or separate room, called genizah.

Great authors were not called by their family name, but deferentially after the title of their books; they were more closely identified by their scholarship than by their families.

The rabbis of the second century debated over which was greater -- study or practice. They voted on the issue and decided that study was the greater, because inevitably it would lead to practice. Knowledge, they held, had to affect behavior. "The ignoramus is not a saint."

Indeed, study -- the process of learning itself-is the heart of Jewish religious practice.

Another debate in comparative religious values offers the choice of study or prayer. The Talmud makes short shrift of the subject. It records an incident of a rabbi who chastised a colleague for spending time praying when he could more profitably be studying. Praying, he held, should be considered materialistic -- natural to the temporal, material world, as one could pray for health, success, peace. But the study of Torah belongs to the eternal world, the world-to-come -- it is a spirited exercise in God-wrestling at the highest level of spiritual life.

Torah study is not just scholarship, it is an act of prayer.

Torah study is not simply a matter of punctilious scholarship and academic excellence, although it is surely that, too. It accomplishes two purposes: one is the accumulation of knowledge; the other is worship -- because the process itself is an act of prayer.

Study is the highest mode of worship. The act of praying;.. is regarded as "permitted" by God-He agrees to listen to the pleading of His creatures. But study is "required" by biblical mandate. Torah study is crucial to the survival of the Jews, and it has earned Jews the reputation of being one of the most educated peoples in the history of the world.

Maimonides writes:

Every man in Israel has an obligation to study the Torah, whether he is rich or poor, healthy or sick, young or old and without vigor. Even if he is poor and needs to beg from door to door, and even if he has a family to support, he is obligated to set aside time by day and by night to study Torah.

LEARNING AS AN ACT OF LOVE

More than a law, more than a prayer, learning is an act of love.

Many study in order to know; many more study in order to utilize what they know; others study for study's sake -- they love to learn.

When the Greeks called Pythagoras sophos, "wise man," he answered that he was only philo sophos, a "lover of wisdom." There are scores of people in diverse cultures who are lovers of learning.

Among Jews, this is quite pronounced. The passion for learning being the heritage of generations and -- the Torah for millennia being the cherished democratic possession of the common folk -- the love of learning is natural.

But Torah to Jews is different, qualitatively different. Not only are they in love with learning; learning is itself love. It is the language adoration, the music of celestial spheres. It is the means and the goal.

Torah is both the arrow and the heart of Judaism.

More telling than the commandment to study and the importuning of the rabbis is the description of how the of Torah was integrated into the life-style of the Jews in the cities and shtetls of the diaspora.

An old book saved from the countless libraries recently burned in Europe, now at the YIVO Library in New York, bears the stamp, "The Society of Wood-Choppers for the Study of Mishnah in Berditchev."

Abraham Joshua Heschel describes the place of Torah in shtetl life:

There were many who lived in appalling poverty, many who were pinched by never-ending worries, and there plenty of taverns with strong spirits, but drunkards were rarely seen among Jews. When night came and a man wanted to pass away time, he did not hasten to a tavern to take a drink, but went to pore over a book or joined a group which -- either with or without a teacher -- indulged in the enjoyment of studying revered books. Physically worn out by their day's toil, they sat over open volumes, playing the austere music of the Talmud's groping for truth or the sweet melodies of exemplified piety of ancient Sages.

"Once I noticed," writes a Christian scholar, who visited the city of Warsaw during the First World War, "a great many coaches on a parking place, but with no drivers in sight. In my own country, I would have known where to look for them. A young Jewish boy showed me the way: in a courtyard, on the second floor, was the shtibl of the Jewish drivers. It consisted of two rooms: one filled with Talmud volumes, the other a room for prayer. All the drivers were engaged in fervent study and religious discussion ... It was then that I found out and became convinced that all professions, the bakers, the butchers, the shoemakers, etc., have their own shtibl in the Jewish district; and every free moment which can be taken off from their work is given to the study of the Torah. And when they get together in intimate groups, one urges the other: "Zog mir a shtickl Torah -- Tell me a little Torah."

http://www.aish.com/literacy/mitzvah...orah_Study.asp

[samah12]

[QUOTE=lavikor201;362004]Unlike many of our fellow religion, we don't go out and mass convert people. It is not our duty. If you want to Join my amazing religion than it would be a great thing for you to do. But unlike many religions follow the seven laws of Noah and you will be in heaven.

QUOTE]

I hava a book called The Path of the Righteous Gentile and it states that Jews are the chosen children of God (not chosen as in special but chosen to be teachers of Gods laws). Is it then your duty as a Jew to teach gentiles?

Also, thank you so much for your openness and allowing us to question you so openly about your belief system. This is what everone needs to begin the process of understanding and accepting each other.

I agree with Woodrow about the prayer mat, as a woman I pray in the home, not in a mosque so I use my prayer mat but if I travel I use a clean towel to pray. When I visited the bank recently the men were praying, maybe 20 men together, they didn't each have a seperate mat, they have a large carpet they unroll for group prayer.

[Grace Seeker]

If the Torah scroll is accidentally dropped, the entire congregation present at the time fasts on a chosen day and gives charity. When the Torah scroll ages and its letters begin to crack, it is reverently buried.

hmmmm....

Gives me an idea. I think I'll see if I can institute this practice in my church, and then "accidently" drop the Bible when we need to receive a second offering. :-[

[lavikor201]

I hava a book called The Path of the Righteous Gentile and it states that Jews are the chosen children of God (not chosen as in special but chosen to be teachers of Gods laws). Is it then your duty as a Jew to teach gentiles?

Yes, we must teach you about the seven laws of Noah all gentiles should know so they have a place in the world to come.

[Grace Seeker]

Yes, we must teach you about the seven laws of Noah all gentiles should know so they have a place in the world to come.

I'm sure they are already listed someplace in this thread, but I haven't found them yet. Could you list them again, please? Thanks.

[lavikor201]

I'm sure they are already listed someplace in this thread, but I haven't found them yet. Could you list them again, please? Thanks.

There is actually a growing movement of noahides, in the USA and various places of people who wish to submit to the Torah, but not have to follow all 613 laws.

Great site is this:

http://www.wikinoah.org/index.php/Main_Page


Prohibition of Idolatry

1. No idolatry
2. To pray
3. To offer ritual sacrifices only to God

Prohibition of Blasphemy

4. To believe in the singularity of God, see, Monotheism
5. No blasphemy
6. No witchcraft
7. No soothsayers
8. No conjurers
9. No sorcerers
10. No mediums
11. No demonology
12. No wizardry
13. No necromancy
14. To respect father & mother

Prohibition of Homicide

15. No murder
16. No suicide
17. No Moloch worship (infant sacrifice)

Prohibition of Sexual Immorality

18. No adultery
19. Formal legal marriages
20. No incest with close relatives
21. No sodomy (i.e. homosexuality)
22. No bestiality
23. Not to crossbreed animals
24. No castration

Prohibition of Theft

25. No stealing

Prohibition of Limb of a Living Creature

26. Not to eat a limb of a living creature
27. Not to eat or drink blood
28. Not to eat carrion (for those recognised by a Beth Din)

Imperative of Legal System

29. To establish courts and a system of justice
30. No false oaths

The Sixty Six Noahide Laws (7 set up into categories)

Rabbi Aaron Lichtenstein, following the general consensus of halacha, sees the Seven Laws as Categories. In Rabbi Aaron Lichtenstein's opinion it is possible to look at all seven laws with the view towards establishing the extent to which they, severally, correspond to the Jewish law directed at Jews. His study seeks to resolve the question raised in the correspondence as to the categorization of the Laws of Noah. He sought to prove that the earliest sources on Noahism, and the writers who deal with these sources conscientiously, view the seven categories as subject heads for a mass of legal dicta.
His intention was not to define Noahide law in terms of an expanded list of sixty six laws, rather only to prove that the volume of Noahide Law is greater - when compared to the volume of Israelite Law - than a ratio of 7 to 613 would indicate. His book "The Seven Laws of Noah" demonstrates the breadth of Noahic legislation.[1]
Prohibition of Idolatry

1. "Against entertaining the thought that there exists a deity except Hashem." (Negative 1)
2. "Against making any graven image [& against having anyone else make one for us]." (Negative 2)
3. "Against making idols for use by others." (Negative 3)
4. "Against making any forbidden statues [even when they are for ornamental purposes]." (Negative 4)
5. "Against bowing to any idol [& not to sacrifice nor to pour libation nor to burn incense before any idol, even where it is not the customary manner of worship to the particular idol]." (Negative 5)
6. "Against worshipping idols in any of their customary manners of worship." (Negative 6)
7. "Against causing our children to pass [through the fire] in the worship of Molech." (Negative 7)
8. "Against practicing Ov." (Negative 8)
9. "Against practicing Yiddoni." (Negative 9)
10. "Against turning to idolatry [in word, in thought, in deed, or by any observance that may draw us to its worship]." (Negative 10)

Prohibition of Blasphemy

11. "To acknowledge the existence of G-d." (Positive 1)
12. "To fear G-d." (Positive 4)
13. "To pray to Him." (Positive 5)
14. "To sanctify G-d's name [in face of death, where appropriate]." (Positive 9)
15. "Against desecrating G-d's name [even in face of death, when appropriate]." (Negative 63)
16. "To study the Torah." (Positive 11)
17. "To honor the scholars, and to revere one's teacher." (Positive 209)
18. "Against blaspheming." (Negative 60)

Prohibition of Homicide

19. "Against any person murdering anyone." (Negative 289)

Prohibition of Sexual Immorality

20. "Against [a man] having union with his mother." (Negative 330)
21. "Against [a man] having union with his sister." (Negative 331)
22. "Against [a man] having union with the wife of his father." (Negative 332)
23. "Against [a man] having union with another man's wife." (Negative 347)
24. "Against [a man] copulating with a beast." (Negative 348)
25. "Against a woman copulating with a beast." (Negative 349)
26. "Against [a man] lying carnally with a male." (Negative 350)
27. "Against [a man] lying carnally with his father." (Negative 351)
28. "Against [a man] lying carnally with his father's brother." (Negative 352)
29. "Against engaging in erotic conduct that may lead to a prohibited union. [That is, petting by persons whose marriage would be illicit.]" (Negative 353)

Prohibition of Theft

30. "Against stealing. [i.e., by stealth]" (Negative 244)
31. "Against committing robbery. [i.e., openly]" (Negative 245)
32. "Against shifting a landmark." (Negative 246)
33. "Against cheating." (Negative 247)
34. "Against repudiating a claim of money owed." (Negative 248)
35. "Against overcharging." (Negative 250)
36. "Against coveting." (Negative 265)
37. "Against desiring." (Negative 266)
38. "A laborer shall be allowed to eat of the fruits among which he works [under certain conditions]." (Positive 201)
39. "Against a laborer eating of such fruit [when certain conditions are not met]." (Negative 267)
40. "Against a laborer taking of such fruit home." (Negative 268)
41. "Against kidnapping." (Negative 243)
42. "Against the use of false weights & measures." (Negative 271)
43. "Against the possession of false weights & measures." (Negative 272)
44. "That one shall be exact in the use of weights & measures." (Positive 208)
45. "That the robber shall return [or pay for] the stolen object." (Positive 194)

Prohibition of Limb of a Living Creature

46. "Against eating a limb severed from a living animal, beast, or fowl." (Negative 182)
47. "Against eating the flesh of any animal which was torn by a wild beast which, in part, prohibits the eating of such flesh as was torn off an animal while it was still alive." (Negative 181)

Imperative of Legal System

48. "To appoint judges and officers in each and every community." (Positive 176)
49. "To treat the litigants equally before the law." (Positive 177)
50. "To inquire diligently into the testimony of a witness." (Positive 179)
51. "Against the wanton miscarriag of justice by the court." (Negative 273)
52. "Against the judge accepting a bribe or gift from a litigant." (Negative 274)
53. "Against the judge showing marks of honor to but one litigant." (Negative 275)
54. "Against the judge acting in fear of a litigant's threats." (Negative 276)
55. "Against the judge, out of compassion, favoring a poor litigant." (Negative 277)
56. "Against the judge discriminating against the litigant because he is a sinner." (Negative 278)
57. "Against the judge, out of softness, putting aside the penalty of a mauler or killer." (Negative 279)
58. "Against the judge discriminating against a stranger or an orphan." (Negative 280)
59. "Against the judge hearing one litigant in the absence of another." (Negative 281)
60. "Against appointing a judge who lacks knowledge of the Law." (Negative 284)
61. "Against incrimination by circumstantial evidence." (Negative 290)
62. "Against punishing for a crime committed under duress." (Negative 294)
63. "That the court is to administer the death penalty by the sword [i.e., decapitation]." (Positive 226)
64. "Against anyone taking the law into his own hands to kill the perpetrator of a capital crime." (Negative 292)
65. "To testify in court." (Positive 178)
66. "Against testifying falsely." (Negative 285)

[samah12]

Your prohibitions seem very similar to ours, we live and learn. What is said in Judaism about telling lies? Wouldn't the world be a wonderful place is we all followed Allah's prohibitions!!

What reasons are given in the Torah for not eating the meat of pigs?

[Skywalker]

-To behave justly in all relationships, and to establish courts of justice.

I think all religions agree on this one.

-To refrain from blaspheming Gods name.

I think all religions agree on this one too.

-To refrain from practicing idolatry.

This is where we get into technicalities. For example, are Christians practicing idolatry by praying to a man who they believe is the human embodiment of God? Then you have other issues like loving a celebrity, etc. But nevertheless, Islam at least is in complete agreement with this one.

-To avoid immoral practices, specifically incest and adultery.

No problems with that one. We even take it further by forbidding extra-marital sex of any sort.

-To avoid shedding the blood of ones fellow man.

This one has to be case specific. What if they shed your blood? Doesn't Judaism have an "eye-for-an-eye" policy? What if someone is coming to destroy you and your way of life? Can you spill their blood in self-defense?

-To refrain from robbing ones fellow man.

Agreed, like all religions I know of.

-To refrain from eating a limb torn from a live animal.

We're in agreement here. We even have rules on how to properly and humanely put the animal to sleep.

So from what I see, apart from the issue about "shedding blood", Muslims following Islamic law are going to heaven by Jewish standards.

Could you then shed some light on the shedding blood issue, lavikor?

[King David]

To skywalker:

Of course Islam is following the nohadites laws!!! That is why the Pagans of Arabia recieved the Quran through Mohammad!!! (plus rituals prescribed by god for Ishmaelites)

About the shedding blood issue and others if your life is in danger there are no laws!!! Staying alive is above all laws!!!

And yes by following the Qur'an properly Muslims are going to heaven!!!

But in the Qur'an you have a lot of warnings for the end of days when the children of israel are returning to The Land Of Israel and it Tells you that you should help Israel, but that you wont! And that you will enlist in the hordes of gog and magog!! As is also profeciesed in the Tanach!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE QUR'AN ACKNOWLEDGES THE AUTHORITY OF THE TANACH
"The Qur'an could not have been forged apart from G-d, but it is a confirmation of what was before it, and a distinguishing of the Book [Tanach] wherein is no doubt, from the Lord of all Being" (Qur'an, "Jonah", chapter 10:38. Also see "The Table", chapter 5:52; "Sand Dunes", chapter 46:11 "The Cow", chapter 2:172. Additional Qur'anic acceptance of the Tanach is given in "Night Journey", chapter 17:3; "Prostration", chapter 32:23; "The Believer", chapter 23:56. These references to "the Book" always refer to the Tanach in its original Hebrew, not to translations which are often unreliable).The Qumran Scrolls, written 2,000 years ago and discovered in 1947, provide dramatic proof that the Tanach in use today is faithful to the original text.

THE QUR'AN RECOGNIZES THE AUTHORITY OF THE RABBIS AND THE SPECIAL STATUS OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL
"Surely, We sent down the Torah, wherein is guidance and light. Thereby, the prophets, who had surrendered themselves, gave judgment for those of Jewry, as did the masters and the rabbis, following such portions of God's Book as they were given to keep and bear witness to" [Qur'an, "The Table", chapter 5:48].
"O believers, be not of those who hurt Moses, but God declared him quit of what they said, and he was high honored with God" [Qur'an, "Confederates", chapter 33:69].

"We gave the Children of Israel the Book, the Judgment and the Prophethood, and We provided them with good things, and We preferred them above all beings" [Qur'an, "Hobbling" , chapter 45:15].

THE QUR'AN RECOGNIZES THE RIGHT OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL TO THE LAND OF ISRAEL

The Qur'an has Moses say to the Israelites about the Land of Israel:

"And when Moses said to his people. `Remember G-d's blessing upon you, He...gave you such as He had not given to any other being. Oh my people, enter the Holy Land which G-d has prescribed for you...' And the angels say, 'We settled the Children of Israel in a sure settlement" [Qur'an, "The Table", chapter 5:23; "Jonah", chapter 10:93].
Israel was even meant to fight for the land:
"...They [the Children of Israel] said to a prophet of theirs [Samuel]: 'Raise up for us a king, and we will fight in G-d's way.' He said 'Might it be that, if fighting is prescribed for you, you will not fight?' They said: 'Why should we not fight in G-d's way?' Yet, when fighting was prescribed for them, they turned their backs, except for a few of them..." [Qur'an, "The Cow", chapter 2:246, 247].
"Pharoah sought to scare them out of the land [of Israel]; but We [Allah] drowned him, together with all who were with him. Then We said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the World to Come comes to pass, We shall assemble you all together" [Qur'an, "Night Journey", chapter 17:106 - which foresees the return of a "mixed multitude"].

The Qur'an speaks of the final return of the reunited House of Israel, both the Jews (House of Judah) and the Ten Lost Tribes (House of Ephraim), to the Land of Israel:

"Pharoah sought to scare them out of the land [of Israel]; but We [Allah] drowned him, together with all who were with him. Then We said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the World to Come comes to pass, We shall assemble you all together" [Qur'an, "Night Journey", chapter 17:106 - which foresees the return of a "mixed multitude"].

The Prophet Jeremiah, developing this theme, says:

"And I will cause the captivity of Judah and the captivity of Israel to return, and will build them, as at the first, and will cleanse them from all their iniquity, whereby they have sinned against me, and it shall be to me a name of joy, a praise of honor before all the nations of the world, which shall hear all the good that I do unto them, and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all the prosperity that I shall procure unto it" [Tanach, Jeremiah, chapter 33:7-9].
The Prophet Zechariah, who lived in the Second Temple Period (after the return from the captivity of Babylon) said:

"Thus says the Lord of Hosts: Behold, I will save My people from the east country, and from the west country, and I will bring them and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem, and they shall be My people, and I will be their G-d, in truth and righteousness" [Tanach, Zechariah, chapter 8:7-8].

The Qur'an forbids making a division between the prophets before or after the Exile (Qur'an, "The Cow", chapter 2:130,208, "The House of Imram", chapter 3:78), and before or after the Hegira. Furthermore, the Qur'an praises the Psalms of David, which are Songs of Zion. The Qur'an acknowledges David as God's viceroy and Judge on Earth [Qur'an, "Zad", chapter 38:16-19,25].

"We sent not any before thee except men to whom we revealed: Question the People of the Remembrance [Children fo Israel], if it should be that you do not know -- with the clear signs, and the Psalms, and We have sent down to thee Remembrance [Qur'an] that thou [Muslims] mayest make clear to mankind what was sent down to them [Israelites]" [Qur'an, "The Bee", chapter 16:45].
In his Psalms David speaks clearly of the return of the Children of Israel to the Land of Israel. Psalm 102 says:

"Thou (O Lord) shall arise, and Thou shall have mercy upon Zion, for the time to favor her, yea, the set time is come, for the servants took pleasure in her stones, and favor the dust thereof. So the nations shall fear the Name of the Lord, and the kings of the Earth his glory. When the Lord shall build Zion, He shall appear in His glory. He will regard the prayer of the torn, and not despise their prayer. This shall be written for the last generation..." [Tanach, Psalm 102:14-19 (the Hebrew text says "the last generation", not "generation to come" as it appears in most English translations)]. "The Lord does build Jerusalem, He gathered the outcasts of Israel" [Tanach, Psalm 147:2, 69:35].

Jeremiah transmits the Lord's commandment to the nations:

"Hear the word of the Lord, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say: "He that scatters Israel will gather him and keep him, as a Shepherd does his flock. For the Lord has redeemed Jacob...therefore they shall come and sing in the heights of Zion..." [Tanach, Jeremiah 31:10].


The prophets, including David, speak clearly. They show that the Land of Israel is an entity of its own, distinct from the present concepts of Dar-es-Salam and Dar-el-Harb. It is the Land of the Lord God of Israel [Tanach, Jeremiah 2:7; Ezekiel 36:5; 38:16; Joel 4:2; and others].

Israel's enemies often claim that the Jews are a cursed people who are not entitled to the Land of Israel. Does the presence of confused and sinful men and women among the People of Israel justify this hostility? Was the hostility of the ancient Philistines justified by King Saul's weakness and sins? Were the hostilities of the Arabs against the Jews and their building of the Second Temple Justified? The Qur'an and the Tanach say no [Qur'an, "The Cow" chapter 2:245-253; Tanach, Nechemia 4:1].

"God took compact with the Children of Israel...for their breaking their compact. We cursed them and made their hearts hard...and you will never cease to light upon some act of treachery on their part, except a few of them. Yet pardon them, and forgive. Surely God loves those who do good" [Qur'an, "The Table", chapter 5:15-17].


"We sent against you [Israel] our servants [the Romans] to discountenance you, and to enter the Temple, as they [the Babylonians] entered it the first time, and to destroy utterly what they ascended to. Perchance your Lord will have mercy upon you, but if you return [to the Land of Israel], We shall return...[to you]" [Qur'an, "Night Journey", chapter 17:8].God promised that He will forgive Israel at the time of its return:

"And I will bring Israel again to his habitation, and he shall feed on Carmel and Bashan [the biblical name for the Golan Heights], and his soul shall be satisfied upon Mount Ephraim [Samaria in the so-called 'West Bank'] and Gilead. In those days, and at that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none, and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found, for I will pardon them whom I reserve" [Tanach, Jeremiah 50:19, 20].

The Almighty will surely do what He has promised.

"The promise of God! God fails not His promise, but most men do not know" [Qur'an, "The Greeks", chapter 30:5, "Believers", chapter 23:76].

Were the Muslims not guardians and stewards until the rightful heirs (the Children of Israel) would return at the appointed time? The Land of Israel is assigned to the Children of Israel as an eternal inheritance (Tanach, Genesis, 17:8,21; Joel 4:3; Amos 9:15) notwithstanding the two foretold dispersions. The Qur'an acknowledges this, as we saw already.

King David, after conquering Jerusalem from the Jebusites, bought Mount Moriah from Ornan, the Jebusite King, and paid the full price requested by Ornan for it.

King Solomon then built the Temple, the "Beth HaMikdash", upon this site. The title deeds, including their confirmation by the Persian Kings Cyrus and Darius, are documented in the Tannach [Tanach, I Chronicles 21:24,25; II Chronicles 3:1; Ezra 1:1-3, 6:11,12].
The Qur'an commands Muslims to give refuge and help to those who "have emigrated and struggled...in the way of God" [Qur'an, "The Spoils", chapter 8:73-76].
This should alarm those Muslims who heed the Prophet Ezekiel's words:

"Because you have had a perpetual hatred, and shed the blood of the Children of Israel by the force of your sword in the time of their calamity, in the time their iniquity had an end, therefore, as I live, saith the Lord G-d, I will prepare thee unto blood and will make Mount Seir most desolate and will make thee perpetual desolations, and thy cities shall not return, because thou hast said, these two nations shall be mine, and I will possess it" [Tanach, Ezekiel 35:5ff, Psalm 83].
__________________________________________________ __________________________________

The Qur'an and the Tanach tell us that in the eyes of God one thousand years are like a day [Tanach, Psalm 90:4; Qur'an, "Pilgrimage", chapter 22:47] and that the Six Days of Creation, or six thousand years of mankind, may well be shortened.
The Qur'an says in this regard:

"They will question you concerning the Hour...Say: 'The knowledge of it is only with my Lord, none shall reveal it at its proper time, but He..." [Qur'an, "Battlements", chapter 7:186-88]. "Nay, but they cry lies to the Hour, and We have prepared for him who cries lies to the Hour a blaze...Say: 'Is it better, or the Garden of Eternity that is promised to the God-fearing...?" [Qur'an, "Salvation", chapter 25:12-16].

Ongoing hostilities against Israel may lead to the war of "Gog and Magog", of which the Qur'an says:

"There is a ban upon a city [Jerusalem] that We have destroyed. They [the Jews] shall not return [to the Land of Israel] till when Gog and Magog are unloosed, and they slide down out of every slope, and nigh has drawn the true promise, and behold, the eyes of the unbelievers staring. 'Alas for us! We were heedless of this. Nay, we are evildoers" [Qur'an, "The Prophets", chapter 21:96, 97].

Who or what prompts you to enlist in the hordes of Gog and Magog?

In this context the Qur'an warns:

"Upon this day when their faces are turned about in the fire, they shall say: 'Ah, would we had obeyed God and the messenger!' They shall say: 'Our Lord, we obeyed the chiefs and great ones, and they led us astray from the way. Our Lord, give them chastisement twofold, and curse them with a mighty curse" [ Qur'an, "The Confederates", chapter 33:66].

The next verse admonishes:

"O believers, be not as those who hurt Moses, but God declared him quit of what they said, and he was high honored with God" [Qur'an, "The Confederates", chapter 33:68].

The Qur'an says Muslims must not harm Jews:

"Dispute not with the People of the Book, save in a fairer manner, except for those of them that go wrong; and say: 'We believe in what has been sent down to us, and what has been sent down to you, our God and your God are One, and to Him we have surrendered" [Qur'an, "The Spider", chapter 29:45].

"Have you considered? If it be from God, and you disbelieve in it, and a witness from among the Children of Israel bears witness to its like, and believes, and you wax proud -- God guides not the people of the evildoers" [Qur'an, "Sand Dunes", chapter 46:8,9].
Consider also these words of Muhammed:

"The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of the martyr. Faith is a restraint against violence. Let no Muslim [believer] commit violence" [Quoted from "Thus spoke the Prophet Mohammed" by Dr. M. Hafiz, Madras, 1971].

The Qur'an says:

"It may be God will establish between you and those of them with whom you are at enmity, Love. God is all-powerful, all-forgiving, all-compassionate" [Qur'an, "The Woman Tested", chapter 60:7; "Counsel", chapter 42:14].

This tallies with Isaiah's prophecy:

"In that day shall Israel be third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land, whom the Lord of Hosts shall bless, saying: 'Blessed be Egypt, My people, and Assyria, the work of My hands, and Israel, Mine inheritance'" [Tanach, Isaiah 19:24-25].
Interestingly enough, modern Syria sees itself as the heir of ancient Assyria.

Isaiah's prophecy explains the phrase "from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates" [Tanach, Genesis 15:13].
"And We delivered him [Abraham], and Lot, unto the land [of Israel] We had blessed for all beings" [Qur'an, "The Prophets", chapter 21:71].

The phrase "the land We had blessed for all beings" parallels passages from the Psalms, which read:

"for there [in Zion] has the Lord commanded the blessings, even life for ever more" [Tanach, Psalm 133:3]. "Lift up your hands towards the sanctuary, and bless the Lord. May the Lord bless thee out of Zion, he that is the maker of heavens and earth" [Tanach, Psalms 134:2-3]. "Blessed be the Lord out of Zion, even He that resideth in Jerusalem" [Tanach, Psalms 135:21].

We, the children of Abraham, should unite in peace and build up a culture of our own, instead of fighting each other and feeding the war industries of foreign nations.
We are related by faith and by blood. The different rituals we observe should not lead to enmity between us. Quite the contrary.

The Qur'an says:

"If God had willed, he would have made you one nation, but he may try you in what has come to you. So be ye forward in good works, unto God shall you return altogether, and He will tell you of that whereon you were at variance" [Qur'an, "The Table", chapter 5:53; "The Bee", chapter 16:95].
It is from God that we follow different rituals:

"We have appointed for every nation a holy rite that they shall perform" [Qur'an, "The Pilgrimage", chapter 22:66].

The Qur'an even distinguishes between Abraham, Isaac and Jacob on the one hand, and Ishmael on the other:

"Remember also our servants Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, men of might they and of vision. Assuredly, We purified them with a quality most pure, the remembrance of the Abode, and in our sight, they are of the chosen, the excellent. Remember also our servants Ishmael, Elisha and Dhool Kifl, each is among the excellent" [Qur'an, "The Zad", chapter 38:45-48].

According to these verses, the three Patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are described as purified, chosen and excellent, while Ishmael, although being counted among the excellent, is not mentioned as chosen. The chosen-ness of the three Patriarchs has to do with the Land Covenant which the Lord of All Beings made with them [Tanach, Genesis 15:18, 17:4-8, 26:4, 35:11-12].

While every nation has its own distinctive characteristics, it is exactly this Land Covenant which molds the People of Israel into something distinctive, unique in history.

The Qur'an stresses this repeatedly:

"[Allah] gave you such as He had not given to any being. O My People [the Israelites], enter the Holy Land [Land of Israel] which God has prescribed for you..." [Qur'an, "The Table", chapter 5:24]. "Children of Israel, remember...that I have preferred you above all beings" [Qur'an, "The Cow", chapter 2:44].

Note also the distinction between the calls and levels of Abraham's son Isaac, grandson Jacob and son Ishmael:

"We gave him [Abraham] Isaac and Jacob, and each We made a prophet, and We gave them our mercy, and We appointed to them a tongue of truthfulness, sublime...And Ishmael...was true to his promise, and he was a messenger, a prophet. He bade his people to pray and to give alms, and he was pleasing to his Lord" [Qur'an, "Mary", chapter 19:50-56; "The Prophets", chapter 21:72,85].
The Qur'an does say that Abraham "was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but a Muslim of pure faith" (Qur'an, "The House of Imram", chapter 3:60). He "named you Muslim(submitted) aforetime" [Qur'an, "The Pilgrimage", chapter 22:77-78] and admonished you to "follow the creed of Abraham, a man of pure faith and no idolater" [Qur'an, "The Bee", chapter 16:124].
The expression "He named you Muslim aforetime" shows that the term "Muslim" is here applied in its etymological sense, meaning "one who submits to God", a God Fearer who followed the universal faith of Noah (Genesis 9) given to all mankind, rather than the member of a specific later religion.

It is in this sense that the Qur'an speaks of the prophets of Israel as those who have surrendered to God; i.e., as Muslims (God Fearers) [Qur'an, "The Table", chapter 5:48], despite the fact that they and the People of Israel were commanded to observe ordinances and rites different from those of the descendants of Ishmael.
An example of such differences is the Sabbath. This day of rest and sanctification is for the Children of Israel also a sign of God's covenant with them [Tanach, Exodus 31:13-17].
The Qur'an confirms this and even ridicules Jews who do not observe the Sabbath as "apes" [Qur'an, "The Cow", chapter 2:63].
"Praise the Lord, all you nations, praise him, all you people, for his grace did prevail over us, and the Lord's truth is for ever. Praise you the Lord" [Tanach, Psalm 117].
"Have you considered? If it be from God, and you disbelieve in it, and a witness from among the Children of Israel bears witness to its like, and believes, and you wax proud, God guides not the people of the evildoers" [Qur'an, "Sand Dunes", chapter 46:8-9].

The Qur'an says:

"God is our Lord and your Lord. We have our deeds, and you have your deeds, there is no argument between us and you. God shall bring us together, and unto Him is our homecoming" [Qur'an, "The Counsel", chapter 42:14].Repentance is always possible. According to the Qur'an, even Pharaoh, when he saw his army drowning, came to his senses and admitted:

"I believe that there is no God but He in whom the Children of Israel believe. I am of those that surrender" [Qur'an, "Jonah" chapter 10-90].


ABRAHAMS' PRAYER

When told by the Lord that in spite of their high age he would get a son from Sarah, Abraham prayed [Bere****/Genesis 17:18]

"O that Ishmael might live before thee!"

Abraham loved both Ishmael and Isaac, therefore he had to be told:

"Take now thy son, thine only whom you have loved, even Isaac..." [Bere****/Genesis 22:2]. The specification "even Isaac", was to tell him which one of the two beloved sons he should bring to Mount Moriah.

Abraham did not merely pray "that Ishmael might live". He was not concerned that Ishmael would be threatened by Isaac, and would need a special prayer for the protection from the latter.

Abraham was concerned that Ishmael, biologically the firstborn, might try to bring the whole heritage unto himself, and deprive Isaac of the Divine promise.

Abraham prayed that Ishmael might live before the Lord. This prayer should encourage and guide him to let his spiritual Abrahamic inheritance get the upper hand so that he would be alive in the Divine spirit, and consequently recognize also Isaac's call.

The two brothers and their descendants should not fight over the inheritance but "compete in good works" as the Qur'an, Ishmael's guide book, says so aptly.

In the spirit of our father Abraham, let us , the Children of Ishmael and the Children of Israel, pray together:

"O that both of us -- Ishmael and Israel -- might live before Thee!"

MORE POINTS:

1. It stresses the continued validity of the "Book" - Jonah 38; Table 52; Cow 172; Believers 56; Bee 45-47; and others

2. It recognizes the teachings of the Prophets, even of the rabbis -- Table 48 (notwithstanding Repentance 30-35)
3. It recognizes the peculiarity of Israel and the unparalleled gifts to its people (including the land promise) -- Hobbling 15; Cow 60, 247

4. The Land of Israel is prescribed for the Children of Israel -- Table 23

5. Allah settled the Children of Israel in the Land of Israel -- Jonah 93

6. The Children of Israel are rebuked for not fighting for the Land of Israel -- Cow 60, 247
7. David's Kingdom (Zion) and Psalms confirmed, and he being acknowledged as Divine viceroy on earth - Zad 19,25; Cow 252 [cf Is. 28:16]

8. The Psalms and Prophets speak of Israel's return to the land and Jerusalem, and so does the Qur'an -- Bani Israel 8,105

9. Israel often harshly rebuked in the Qur'an, but there is no cancellation of the Covenant or of the Promises

10. On the contrary, the words of the Prophets shall surely be established -- Greeks 5; Hobbling 31; Believers 76

11. Abraham is called a true Muslim - Imram 60; Pilgrimage 77; Cattle 162; and so are the Prophets -- Table 48, notwithstanding their keeping Shabbat and their direction of prayer toward Jerusalem [cf. I Kings 8:30,42]

12. Abraham established a) Mount Moriah in Jerusalem for Israel -- Genesis 22:2, II Chronicles 3:1 b) The Kaaba in Mecca for Ishmael -- Cow 119, 123

13. Qiblah (direction of prayer) for Muslim to Mecca, and for Jews to Jerusalem -- Cow 140, 143 (cf. I Kings 8:29,30)

14. The Qur'an admits different religious rites, and urges all of us to compete in good works - Cow 143, Table 53, Pilgrimage 66

15. Allah wants to be honored by forgiveness and love - Table 15-17, Woman Tested 7, Counsel 14
Allah Himself is saying that Jerusalem is as important to Jews as Mecca is to Muslims.

In "The Cow" Allah says that Jews and Muslims have their own special directions of prayer (Jerusalem for Jews and Mecca for Muslims) [Qur'an, "The Cow", chapter 2:140].
"This day let not reproach be cast on you, Allah will forgive you, since He is the Most Merciful of those who show mercy" [Qur'an, "Joseph", chapter 12:92].
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his fellow", said King Solomon [Mishle/Proverbs 21:17].

[Abu Zakariya]

This is a Jewish Q&A Thread and should be kept as such. But once again someone has misrepresented Islamic beliefs in this thread so once again I will respond.

No the Qur'an doesn't recognize the authority of the Rabbis. Do you mean to tell me that the former Sephardic chief Rabbi of Israel is supported by the Qur'an?

It refers to the preivous learned worshippers and scholars as explained by the tafsir of ibn Kathir. Just like the ayat that mention the Children of Israel's right to the Holy Land, it can't be used in todays context because the right to the Holy Land, according to Islam, isn't bound to a certain ethnicity. The land belongs to the people of Monotheism and the followers of God.

I don't know if you are a Jew, "King David", but if you are then please stick with explaining your religion instead of trying to tell us what we should believe, misusing the Qur'an in the process (and also claiming that we will be the followers of Gog and Magog).

[lavikor201]

No the Qur'an doesn't recognize the authority of the Rabbis. Do you mean to tell me that the former Sephardic chief Rabbi of Israel is supported by the Qur'an?

Mistranslation. He said to wipe out all the Arabs who want to kill innocent Jews.

This is where we get into technicalities. For example, are Christians practicing idolatry by praying to a man who they believe is the human embodiment of God? Then you have other issues like loving a celebrity, etc. But nevertheless, Islam at least is in complete agreement with this one.

Depends which Rabbi's school of thought you follow. Is Christianity avoda zara (Idol worship) or ****tuf (Assosiation with the true G-d.) And are gentiles even aloud to do the later??

This one has to be case specific. What if they shed your blood? Doesn't Judaism have an "eye-for-an-eye" policy? What if someone is coming to destroy you and your way of life? Can you spill their blood in self-defense?

Not really, I mean self defense it different, but Judaism is heavily against the death penalty.

For a person to be killed, he would have to be seen by two witnesses and be told while doing the crime it was wrong and he could be killed and he would have to acknowledge it. Basically, it is G-d's choice when somone is killed and we almost always refrain from executing but instead imprisoing for life.

So from what I see, apart from the issue about "shedding blood", Muslims following Islamic law are going to heaven by Jewish standards.

If a Muslim tries to prevent a Jew from folloing the laws by being violent towards him, or doing something economically that will stop him from following the Torah, he will probably have no place in heaven.

Your prohibitions seem very similar to ours, we live and learn. What is said in Judaism about telling lies? Wouldn't the world be a wonderful place is we all followed Allah's prohibitions!!

No lieing unless it is a white lie that will make someone feel better.

What reasons are given in the Torah for not eating the meat of pigs?

There is no reason. G-d told us not to.

[King David]

No the Qur'an doesn't recognize the authority of the Rabbis. Do you mean to tell me that the former Sephardic chief Rabbi of Israel is supported by the Qur'an?

His remarks referred only to "Arab murderers and terrorists" and not the Arab people as a whole.


"We sent not any before thee except men to whom we revealed: Question the People of the Remembrance [Children fo Israel], if it should be that you do not know -- with the clear signs, and the Psalms, and We have sent down to thee Remembrance [Qur'an] that thou [Muslims] mayest make clear to mankind what was sent down to them [Israelites]" [Qur'an, "The Bee", chapter 16:45].

"Have you considered? If it be from God, and you disbelieve in it, and a witness from among the Children of Israel bears witness to its like, and believes, and you wax proud -- God guides not the people of the evildoers" [Qur'an, "Sand Dunes", chapter 46:8,9].

[King David]

Mistranslation. He said to wipe out all the Arabs who want to kill innocent Jews.

Not really he said that this will happen because G-D will do it:

Rabbi Yosef said in his sermon that enemies have tried to hurt the Jewish people from the time of the exodus from Egypt to this day.

"The Lord shall return the Arabs' deeds on their own heads, waste their seed and exterminate them, devastate them and vanish them from this world," he said.


It has been Profeciesed this is not his own oppinion this is Taken from Ezekiel:

Yechezkiel - Chapter 35

1. Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying:
2. "Son of man, direct your face toward Mount Seir and prophesy over it.
3. And you shall say to it: So said the Lord God: Behold I am against you, O Mount Seir, and I shall stretch forth My hand upon you and make you desolate and waste.
4. I shall lay your cities waste, and you will be desolate, and you will know that I am the Lord.
5. Because you had everlasting hatred, and you hurled the children of Israel by the sword, on the day of their misfortune at the time of the end of their iniquity.
6. Therefore, as I live, says the Lord God, for I shall make you into blood, and blood will pursue you; for surely you hated blood, and blood will pursue you.
7. And I shall make Mount Seir into desolation and waste, and I shall cut off from you anyone passing through or returning.
8. And I shall fill his mountains with his slain, your hills and your dales and all your streams-those slain by the sword will fall in them.
9. I shall make you everlasting desolations, and your cities will not return, and you will know that I am the Lord.
10. Because you said, "The two nations and the two lands will be mine, and we shall inherit it," and the Lord was there,
11. Therefore, as I live, says the Lord God, I shall commit [acts] like your wrath and like your [acts of] anger that you did out of your hatred for them, and I shall be known among them when I judge you.
12. And you will know that I am the Lord. I heard all your blasphemies that you said concerning the mountains of Israel, saying, "They have become desolate; they were given to us to devour."
13. You have magnified yourselves against Me with your mouth, and you have multiplied your words against Me; I have heard.
14. So said the Lord God: When the whole earth rejoices, I shall make you desolate.
15. As you rejoiced over the inheritance of the house of Israel because it became desolate, so will I do to you; Mount Seir and all Edom will be desolate, even all of it, and they will know that I am the Lord.

[Abu Zakariya]

King David

You are yet again trying to tell us what to believe by misusing the Qur'an.

The first ayah that you quoted, about asking the People of Rememberance (ahl al-Dhikr) has a context to it.
First of all, the words you put in brackets "Children of Israel" isn't part of the actual verse. So the verse doesn't say that you should ask the Children of Israel. However, ibn 'Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him), who was a cousin of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and a great mufassir (exegete) of the Qur'an said that it does indeed refer to the Jews, as well as the Christians.

So the verse doesn't state that one should ask the Children of Israel, it does state that one should ask the people of Rememberance. ibn Abbas was of the opinion that it refers to the people of the Book.

Now, the question may arise: but why should they ask the people of the Book and who are "they", i.e. those that are instructed to ask?

This verse was a response to the Arabs that rejected Muhammad (peace be upon him) because they didn't believe Allah would send a human being as a Prophet but would rather send angels.
This is taken from the book "Tafsir ibn Kathir":

Ad-Dahhak said, reporting from Ibn `Abbas: "When Allah sent Muhammad as a Messenger, the Arabs, or some of them, denied him and said, `Allah is too great to send a human being as a Messenger.' Then Allah revealed:


[أَكَانَ لِلنَّاسِ عَجَبًا أَنْ أَوْحَيْنَآ إِلَى رَجُلٍ مِّنْهُمْ أَنْ أَنذِرِ النَّاسَ]


(Is it a wonder to people that We have sent Our Inspiration to a man from among themselves (saying): "Warn mankind...'') and He said,


[وَمَآ أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ إِلاَّ رِجَالاً نُّوحِى إِلَيْهِمْ فَاسْأَلُواْ أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِن كُنْتُم لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ ]


(And We sent not (as Our Messengers) before you (O Muhammad) any but men, whom We sent Revelation. So ask Ahl Adh-Dhikr, if you know not.). meaning, (ask) the people of the previous Books, were the Messengers that were sent to them humans or angels If they were angels, then you have the right to find this strange, but if they were human, then you have no grounds to deny that Muhammad is a Messenger. Allah says:


[وَمَآ أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ إِلاَّ رِجَالاً نُّوحِى إِلَيْهِمْ مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْقُرَى]


(And We sent not before you (as Messengers) any but men to whom We revealed, from among the people of townships. ) [12:109] and not from among the people of heaven as you say.'' It was reported by Mujahid from Ibn `Abbas that what is meant by Ahl Adh-Dhikr is the People of the Book. This is as Allah says:


[أَوْ يَكُونَ لَكَ بَيْتٌ مِّن زُخْرُفٍ أَوْ تَرْقَى فِى السَّمَآءِ وَلَن نُّؤْمِنَ لِرُقِيِّكَ حَتَّى تُنَزِّلَ عَلَيْنَا كِتَابًا نَّقْرَءُهُ قُلْ سُبْحَـنَ رَبِّى هَلْ كُنتُ إَلاَّ بَشَرًا رَّسُولاً - وَمَا مَنَعَ النَّاسَ أَن يُؤْمِنُواْ إِذْ جَآءَهُمُ الْهُدَى إِلاَّ أَن قَالُواْ أَبَعَثَ اللَّهُ بَشَرًا رَّسُولاً ]


(Say: "Glorified be my Lord! Am I anything but a man, sent as a Messenger'' And nothing prevented men from believing when the guidance came to them, except that they said: "Has Allah sent a man as (His) Messenger'') (17:93-94)


[وَمَآ أَرْسَلْنَا قَبْلَكَ مِنَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ إِلاَّ إِنَّهُمْ لَيَأْكُلُونَ الطَّعَامَ وَيَمْشُونَ فِى الاٌّسْوَاقِ]


(And We never sent before you (O Muhammad) any of the Messengers but verily, they ate food and walked in the markets.) (25:20)


[وَمَا جَعَلْنَـهُمْ جَسَداً لاَّ يَأْكُلُونَ الطَّعَامَ وَمَا كَانُواْ خَـلِدِينَ ]


(And We did not create them (the Messengers, with) bodies that did not eat food, nor were they immortals.)(21:8)


[قُلْ مَا كُنتُ بِدْعاً مِّنَ الرُّسُلِ]


(Say (O Muhammad ): "I am not a new thing among the Messengers. '') [46:9],


[قُلْ إِنَّمَآ أَنَاْ بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُكُمْ يُوحَى إِلَىَّ]


(Say (O Muhammad): "I am only a man like you. It has been revealed to me.'') [18:110] Then Allah informs those who doubt that a Messenger can be a human to ask those who have knowledge of the previous Scriptures about the Prophets who came before: were their Prophets humans or angels Then Allah mentions that He has sent them,


[بِالْبَيِّنَـتِ]


(with clear signs), meaning proof and evidence, and


[وَالزُّبُرِ]


(and Books [Zubur]), meaning Scriptures.


So, basicly they didn't believe that God would send human beings as messengers which is why they disbelieved in Muhammad (peace be upon him) so they are told to ask Jews and Christians to see that human beings have been sent as messengers before. The other ayat you quoted also have explanations, but I'll stop it at here because I've already made a long post.

Again, I know that this is a Jewish Q&A thread and I'm sorry for going against the guidelines for this thread, but I don't think that anybody should be able to say anything about Islam and Muslims without being corrected if he/she isn't saying the truth.

And as for Rabbi Ovadia Yosef. King David and lavikor don't seem to agree on what the Rabbi actually said and I don't know Hebrew so I can't consult the original transcript of his speech so I trust that you have more knowledge on this than me, even thogh it seems strange to me that it caused such controversy (even the Justice Minister of Israel criticized him) if he was only refering to terrorists.

[Woodrow]

I am going to allow the Off topic posts to stay up for a short period of time, as they did raise an issue about Islam. however. Those posts and this one will soon be deleted and we shall all stay on the original topic.

[King David]

43 وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ إِلاَّ رِجَالاً نُّوحِي إِلَيْهِمْ فَاسْأَلُواْ أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِن كُنتُمْ لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ 44 بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ وَالزُّبُرِ وَأَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الذِّكْرَ لِتُبَيِّنَ لِلنَّاسِ مَا نُزِّلَ إِلَيْهِمْ وَلَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ 45 أَفَأَمِنَ الَّذِينَ مَكَرُواْ السَّيِّئَاتِ أَن يَخْسِفَ اللّهُ بِهِمُ الأَرْضَ أَوْ يَأْتِيَهُمُ الْعَذَابُ مِنْ حَيْثُ لاَ يَشْعُرُونَ

"We sent not any before thee except men to whom we revealed: Question the People of the Remembrance [Children fo Israel], if it should be that you do not know -- with the clear signs, and the Psalms, and We have sent down to thee Remembrance [Qur'an] that thou [Muslims] mayest make clear to mankind what was sent down to them [Israelites]" ---Do they, who (in defiance of God’s grace) devise evil schemes, feel safe and secure that God will not cause the earth to swallow them, or that the punishment will not befall them without their perceiving whence it has come?


[Qur'an, "The Bee", chapter 16:43-45].

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But you listen to your teachers evil schemes instead:

"Upon this day when their faces are turned about in the fire, they shall say: 'Ah, would we had obeyed God and the messenger!' They shall say: 'Our Lord, we obeyed the chiefs and great ones, and they led us astray from the way. Our Lord, give them chastisement twofold, and curse them with a mighty curse" [ Qur'an, "The Confederates", chapter 33:66].

The next verse admonishes:

"O believers, be not as those who hurt Moses, but God declared him quit of what they said, and he was high honored with God" [Qur'an, "The Confederates", chapter 33:68].

[lavikor201]

And as for Rabbi Ovadia Yosef. King David and lavikor don't seem to agree on what the Rabbi actually said and I don't know Hebrew so I can't consult the original transcript of his speech so I trust that you have more knowledge on this than me, even thogh it seems strange to me that it caused such controversy (even the Justice Minister of Israel criticized him) if he was only refering to terrorists.

Rav Yosef has some very big political enemies.

[Grace Seeker]

What place, if any, do books such as Tobit and 1 & 2 Maccabbes have in Judaism today?

[Abu Zakariya]

double post.
delete please

[Abu Zakariya]

King David

There's no use talking to you. I explained what the verse means, and instead of responding to what I wrote you just re-quote the verse! With the same misleading brackets and with the same mis-spelling, might I add.

lavikor

I see your point.

[lavikor201]

What place, if any, do books such as Tobit and 1 & 2 Maccabbes have in Judaism today?

Neither have a place. I have never even read them.

This is the Tanakh:


The Torah ("Law") [also known as the Pentateuch] consists of:

1. Genesis [בראשית‎ / B'reshiit]

2. Exodus [שמות‎ / Sh'mot]

3. Leviticus [ויקרא‎ / Vayiqra]

4. Numbers [במדבר‎ / B'midbar]

5. Deuteronomy [דברים‎ / D'varim]

The books of Nevi'im ("Prophets") are:

6. Joshua [יהושע‎ / Y'hoshua]

7. Judges [שופטים‎ / Shophtim]

8. Samuel (I & II) [שמואל‎ / Sh'muel]

9. Kings (I & II) [מלכים‎ / M'lakhim]

10. Isaiah [ישעיה‎ / Y'shayahu]

11. Jeremiah [ירמיה‎ / Yir'mi'yahu] 1

2. Ezekiel [יחזקאל‎ / Y'khezqel]

13. The Twelve Minor Prophets [תרי עשר‎]

I. Hosea [הושע‎ / Hoshea]

II. Joel [יואל‎ / Yo'el]

III. Amos [עמוס‎ / Amos]

IV. Obadiah [עובדיה‎ / Ovadyah]

V. Jonah [יונה‎ / Yonah]

VI. Micah [מיכה‎ / Mikhah]

VII. Nahum [נחום‎ / Nakhum]

VIII. Habakkuk [חבקוק‎ /Khavaquq]

IX. Zephaniah [צפניה‎ / Ts'phanyah]

X. Haggai [חגי‎ / Khagai]

XI. Zechariah [זכריה‎ / Z'kharyah]

XII. Malachi [מלאכי‎ / Mal'akhi]

The Kh'tuvim ("Writings") are:

14. Psalms [תהלים‎ / T'hilim]

15. Proverbs [משלי‎ / Mishlei]

16. Job [איוב‎ / Iyov]

17. Song of Songs [שיר השירים‎ / Shir Hashirim]

18. Ruth [רות‎ / Rut]

19. Lamentations [איכה‎ / Eikhah]

20. Ecclesiastes [קהלת‎ / Qohelet]

21. Esther [אסתר‎ / Est(h)er]

22. Daniel [דניאל‎ / Dani'el] 2

3. Ezra-Nehemiah [עזרא ונחמיה‎ / Ezra wuNekhem'ya]

24. Chronicles (I & II) [דברי הימים‎ / Divrey Hayamim]

King David

There's no use talking to you. I explained what the verse means, and instead of responding to what I wrote you just re-quote the verse! With the same misleading brackets and with the same mis-spelling, might I add.

lavikor

I see your point.

Don't worry, I disagree heavily with what King David usually posts as well.

[Grace Seeker]

Neither have a place. I have never even read them.

This is the Tanakh [listed above].

Thank-you. I am very familiar with the 24 books you cited (though I can't count and usually number them 39 :rollseyes ). But I know that there are other writings beyond these that are important for Jews. For instance the Talmud. And at least once upon a time, a guess that these other books must have been read "religously" by some Jews for they made it into the Greek translation prepared in Alexandria under the order of Ptolemy. Do you know when they dropped out of usage and why?

[lavikor201]

Sorry to tell you, I have no idea.

I'll ask someone if you wish.

[Grace Seeker]

Sorry to tell you, I have no idea.

I'll ask someone if you wish.

You mean you're not omniscient?

I'm curious. But if I never find out, I'll still probably survive another year or two.

[rebelishaulman]

What place, if any, do books such as Tobit and 1 & 2 Maccabbes have in Judaism today?

Historical reference. Not fact. No place in Judaism either.

[Grace Seeker]

Historical reference. Not fact. No place in Judaism either.

So they never had a place? Then why were the included in the LXX?

[rebelishaulman]

So they never had a place? Then why were the included in the LXX?

I wouldn't know, but I have never heard of them ever being a part of Judaism the religion.

[Grace Seeker]

These last couple of answers have me scratching my head, trying to figure out what happened 2200 years ago. Am I not correct that these books in question were included in the LXX? Surely there was some reason for doing so.

You know so much about your history, it is as if this must have been another branch of Judaism that died out. I'm curious, do you know if such a thing happen. The present Torah I know has a very well recorded history of transmission over centuries. But I know there were other divisions within Judaism -- such as the Essenes -- that had other writings. But the use of the LXX was much broader than that of the Essene writings I thought. Surely, there would be some record of it, even it the Hellenist Jews of that particular diaspora who used it were later absorbed into Greek culture and disappeared from the scenes of history.

[rebelishaulman]

I'm sorry but I never really studied about the LXX etc. The books have no place in Judaism today as you asked though. I know that these and several other books are known as the Apocrypha, which means, books outside of the Jewish canon of the Hebrew Bible. While they may serve a limited function as reference material and contain some historical and linguistic information, the members of the Great Assembly, who decided on the canon, excluded them from the Hebrew Bible since they judged them, among other things, not to be inspired works.

[snakelegs]

isn't hanukah based on a story in the maccabees?

[rebelishaulman]

Yes. But that is when I said "While they may serve a limited function as reference material and contain some historical and linguistic information." but they still are not divinely inspired.

The miracle of Hanukkah is described in the Talmud. The Gemara, in tractate Shabbat 21b, says that after the occupiers had been driven from the Temple, the Maccabees discovered that almost all of the ritual olive oil had been profaned. They found only a single container that was still sealed by the High Priest, with enough oil to keep the Menorah in the Temple lit for a single day. They used this, and miraculously, that oil burned for eight days (the time it took to have new oil pressed and made ready).

The Talmud presents three customs:

1. Lighting one light each night per household,
2. One light each night for each member of the household, or,
3. The most beautiful method, where the number of candles changed each night.

I also said that the books have never had a place in "Judaism the religion" because none of the customs oh Hanukkah are from those books. They are from the Talmud, as well as the story of the miracle.

[snakelegs]

thanks for your reply - that makes sense. i know maccabees are not part of tanach.

[snakelegs]

i just remembered something from decades ago that puzzled me and am wondering what your explanation would be.

the thing i find puzzling is one the one hand, the person is studying (about g-d, presumably) and then he beholds one of g-d's creations, why is it wrong to interrupt his studies to praise one of the creator's creations? to me it just seems like switiching from one means of worship to another.
anyway, i'd be curious to read your comments.

it's from pikei avot, chapter 3:
"9. Rabbi Jacob said: If a man is walking by the way and is studying and then interrupts his study and says: "How fine is this tree?" or "How fine is this ploughed field?" Scripture regards him as though he was liable for his life."

[Philosopher]

Is it true that Christianity was once considered a sect of Judaism?

[King David]

yes, untill they became christians and wrote the NT and believed jesus is g*d

[Skywalker]

Nice.....

Ahem! Carry on.

[rebelishaulman]

i just remembered something from decades ago that puzzled me and am wondering what your explanation would be.

the thing i find puzzling is one the one hand, the person is studying (about g-d, presumably) and then he beholds one of g-d's creations, why is it wrong to interrupt his studies to praise one of the creator's creations? to me it just seems like switiching from one means of worship to another.
anyway, i'd be curious to read your comments.

it's from pikei avot, chapter 3:
"9. Rabbi Jacob said: If a man is walking by the way and is studying and then interrupts his study and says: "How fine is this tree?" or "How fine is this ploughed field?" Scripture regards him as though he was liable for his life."

Rabbi Dovid Rosenfeld said: This mishna discusses the severity of interrupting one's Torah study, even for an activity as worthy as admiring nature. The commentator Rashi adds that this is of particular concern when one is traveling and is exposed to the dangers of the wilds (as we discussed recently; see Mishna 5 (www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter3-5.html)). In such a situation Torah study insures Divine protection, and if a person does not avail himself of this protection, "he bears the guilt for his own soul."

Our mishna seems to view the natural world with some degree of ambivalence, implying that the appreciation of nature interferes with true service of G-d. I believe this is not a very accurate or complete picture of the Torah's viewpoint. A review of just a few of the other statements of the Sages regarding this will give us a fuller understanding both of this issue and of the mishna at hand.

There is an obligation to thank G-d for the beauty He has placed in the world. The Sages instituted a number of blessings to be recited upon viewing natural wonders. (See Mishna Berachos 9:2 and Talmud there.) Upon seeing such sights as majestic mountains, deserts and rivers, we recite the blessing: "Blessed are You... who makes the work of creation." (Regarding rivers, the blessing is recited only if one knows the river is following its natural course -- the way G-d created it -- and has not been altered by man. Note also that this blessing is stated in the present tense: "who *makes* the work of creation," rather than "who *has made*..." Judaism does not view creation as some kind of giant wind-up toy G-d invented once upon a time and left to operate on its own momentum. He constantly builds, creates and watches over.)

Upon seeing exceptionally beautiful trees or fields (both of which having been mentioned in our mishna), we recite the blessing "...who has such in His universe."

Upon partaking of seasonal fruits, when we first enjoy the first fruits of the new year's harvest, we thank G-d with the blessing, "who has kept us alive, sustained us, and allowed us to reach this time." We express our gratitude that G-d has preserved us to this time, and has granted us the opportunity to partake of His wonderful creations. And of course, we bless G-d -- both before and after -- for all food He has graced us with.

Finally, the Sages instituted a special blessing to be recited when one first sees fruit trees in bloom in the spring: "Blessed are You... who did not cause a lack of anything in His world, who created good creatures and good trees so that mankind can benefit from them." We note that in this blessing, as well as in the previous blessing on new fruits, we do not praise G-d for His bountiful world alone. We rather thank Him that He has benefited *us* with it. This is not so much because we see the world as something for man to exploit. It is because we see the miracle of nature as G-d's gift to man: we turn our admiration into appreciation. Delicious, ripening fruit (which as R. Avigdor Miller has pointed out, turn color only when they are ready to be picked), is not merely testimony to G-d's magnificent handiwork. It is cause for our eternal gratitude -- and is yet another means of bringing us closer to G-d.

Deuteronomy 20 discusses a number of laws relating to preparing for and fighting wars. Verses 19-20 deal with Jewish troops besieging an enemy city. The Torah warns us: "...you may not destroy its [fruit] trees by pressing ax against them, for from them you will eat... for, is a tree a *man* that it should come before you in siege?" Care for the environment and aesthetics do not normally rate very high in conditions of war. When people are being killed, we pay very little attention to the scenery. (Historically speaking, burning the landscape has been employed both as part of victorious plunder and as defensive tactic.) The Torah, however, tells us otherwise. Respect for the environment should not be neglected even during the heat of the battle.

(In addition, this warning serves to remind us not to "lose it all" in combat. Even if our tactics are sometimes violent, we must never forget we are law-abiding and G-d-fearing servants of the Almighty.)

Additionally, the Sages learn from Deut. 20:19 a more general principle not to destroy or waste food or other items of value (see Talmud Makkos 22a). For as we often find within Judaism, such activities as harming the environment, polluting, wasting energy, etc. -- as well as thanking G-d for His natural wonders -- are not merely common sense dictates; they are codified into law.

Further, when Maimonides discusses the dual obligation to both love and fear G-d (Mishne Torah, Hil' Yesodei Hatorah 2), he asks how does one reach this lofty level? How do we build a relationship with an infinite and unknowable G-d? He answers that when one contemplates G-d's great and wondrous creation and sees the immense wisdom which went into it, he or she will become both awed and inspired. He will develop an awe of and love for the Creator of such beauty and magnificence -- as well as a desire to know Him better. Maimonides then proceeds to devote a number of chapters of his usually technical work to describing his advanced (albeit Medieval) scientific knowledge of the heavens and earth.

And finally, King David, while reveling in the beauty and harmony of nature, exclaims, "How great are Your works, oh L-rd; all of them You have created with wisdom" (Psalms 104:24). And afterwards, "May the glory of G-d endure forever; may the L-rd rejoice in His works" (v. 31).

(We today, with our far superior knowledge of all areas of science, should know all the better how perfectly G-d has orchestrated the forces of nature and the ecology. How often do we observe a single, insignificant(?) creature removed from or introduced into a habitat (more often than not thanks to the tinkering of man) and seeing the entire ecosystem collapse?)

Considering all the above, we must view the beauty and harmony of the natural world with both awe and wonder, seeing them as clear indicators of both an infinite and giving Creator. And as per Maimonides, we are *obligated* to study the natural world for just that reason. If so, what in the world (bad pun there) is so bad about "how beautiful is this tree?" Does it not increase one's closeness to G-d?

Rabbi Ovadiah of Bertinura (of 15th - 16th Century Italy and later Israel), in his commentary to the mishna, explains as follows: All of the above is certainly true. Nature is one of the world's most powerful tools for recognizing G-d. However, the subject in our mishna was appreciating G-d in an even greater and more inspiring manner: he was studying Torah. As our mishna put it, he interrupted his studies to admire his surroundings. And as much as the atom, the cosmos, and the human brain reveal about G-d's infinite wisdom, there is no human experience in this world which compares to opening up the Scriptures or a page of the Talmud. Nothing of all the sciences combined compares to the meaningful study of the Torah, gaining deeper insights into the wisdom of the generations and of G-d Himself. No other experience creates the same sense of exhilaration, and in terms of true inspiration, nothing else comes anywhere close.

I believe we may observe further. Tragically, we find some of the world's greatest scientists to be ardent atheists, who have an almost condescending disdain for religious doctrine and virtue. How could this be? How can the people who understand most fully just how complex and masterfully designed the world is be so godless and empty of spirit themselves?

I do not intend to begin an entire new discussion at this point, but I would like to make one brief observation. If you know G-d too well, it is a very dangerous thing. One who sees -- undeniably so -- that the world must have a Designer, will have to face that reality. He will either have to live up to his knowledge or deny that which is in front of his face. If a person is too firmly rooted in the sciences -- without the proper spiritual and religious grounding -- he may very well be unable to live with his knowledge. He is not ready to accept the ramifications of what he sees before his eyes, and his only other recourse is to deny that which he knows deep down to be the case. He will turn David's "How great are Your works, oh L-rd!" into "How great is evolution!", or even worse: "How lucky the universe was! What a fortunate series of *accidents*!" And so, such a person will adamantly and viciously deny the existence of G-d. His ears hear the echoes of G-d's voice in the creation. And he must either accept it -- or virulently shout it down.

(Many of my readers may notice the similarity to this past Sabbath's Torah reading, describing Bilam (Balaam), the wicked prophet of the nations. He too saw G-d before him, but was so unprepared for it spiritually that it corrupted and destroyed him, both body and soul..)

So to conclude, there certainly is a place in our life curriculum for the study and appreciation of nature, as well as of science. There are few things in this world which better open our eyes to the reality -- and the beauty -- of G-d, and which give us a greater appreciation of His might and majesty. Yet we must take care that it never displaces or interferes with our appreciation of Torah. Science is the handmaiden of Torah. The admiration of science on its own, without the unequivocal acceptance of the Source behind it, may very well be counterproductive and destructive. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. The Sages exhort us to admire the beauty of the world, but constantly remind us to direct that admiration towards G-d -- the G-d "who has such in His universe." For nature allows us to *see* G-d in this world. But only Torah enables us to *recognize* Him -- and to be ready for the encounter.

Is it true that Christianity was once considered a sect of Judaism?

The Jews who believed he was Moshiach when he was alive they were. Then when he died, they continued to believe he was Moshiach which there is no such thing as a "second coming" so when a man dies he no longer can be Moshiach, they then also made him into an idol etc and left all Judaism behind.

[snakelegs]

thanks for your reply. very interesting read. you've cleared up a decades-old question, which i had long forgotten about until today.
would it be considered an interruption if he left his study just long enough to make the blessing?
just a side note - it really saddens me when i read about israelis destroying olive trees. i know it goes against halacha.
do you know of a jewish (orthodox type) forum that would be comparable to this one?

[rebelishaulman]

would it be considered an interruption if he left his study just long enough to make the blessing?

Not at all, you should say the bracha and then go back to study.

just a side note - it really saddens me when i read about israelis destroying olive trees. i know it goes against halacha.

It is a bad thing if Israeli's are doing this, however, I think you underestimate how many trees Israeli's have planted in the land of Israel.

http://www.treesfortheholyland.com/faq.html
http://www.hameir.org/trees.html
http://www.isroiloliveoil.com/plantatreeinisrael.html
http://treestoisrael.org/

do you know of a jewish (orthodox type) forum that would be comparable to this one?

I will PM it to you.

[samah12]

May I ask a question. I started a thread about 'the oldest books' and am really into investigating this subject at the moment. Back in the days when I was a Christian I was told that the Bible had never been changed, although it was accepted that as the bible had been translated through 7 languages to get to english some some minor discrepencies may occur. As a Muslim now I am taught that the Quran has never been changed, not one letter but that the Torah and Bible have been changed beyond recognistion. May I assume as Jews that you believe the Torah has never been changed? If so in my thread about the oldest books I was directed to a weblink that shows an article about the oldest Torah scrolls on exhibition in the Netherlands, they are dated 7th century BC. Wow, that's old.

So to my question, do you know if these have been compared to the modern day Torah (no suggestion that it is different, just don't know how to phrase it trying to say the Torah you read today hope you understand) and if so where can I read about it?

Thanks for any info you can give.

[Pygoscelis]

Does the Torah ever explain why circumcision pleases God? Does it say anything about it to give a clue, other than God demands it as a sign of his covenant?

[samah12]

Does the Torah ever explain why circumcision pleases God? Does it say anything about it to give a clue, other than God demands it as a sign of his covenant?

Sorry to butt in but it was a question I had been curious about so I asked my husband. Don't know if it's the same in Judaism but for Muslims my husband said it is because Allah loves cleanliness and obviously being circumsised is cleaner.

[lavikor201]

May I ask a question. I started a thread about 'the oldest books' and am really into investigating this subject at the moment. Back in the days when I was a Christian I was told that the Bible had never been changed, although it was accepted that as the bible had been translated through 7 languages to get to english some some minor discrepencies may occur. As a Muslim now I am taught that the Quran has never been changed, not one letter but that the Torah and Bible have been changed beyond recognistion. May I assume as Jews that you believe the Torah has never been changed? If so in my thread about the oldest books I was directed to a weblink that shows an article about the oldest Torah scrolls on exhibition in the Netherlands, they are dated 7th century BC. Wow, that's old.

So to my question, do you know if these have been compared to the modern day Torah (no suggestion that it is different, just don't know how to phrase it trying to say the Torah you read today hope you understand) and if so where can I read about it?

Thanks for any info you can give.

I don't know. I have heard the dead sea scrolls are very very accurate, with few changed like "color" being spelled "colour" (example), in the text. The Yeminites who were isolated from all of world Jewry for 900 years have the same Torah we do uncorrupted, the only difference pronounciation of the words.

The transmission of the Hebrew canon could finally be tested. Quoting from Gleason Archer book “Survey of the Old Testament”.

“Even though the two copies of Isaiah discovered in Qumran Cave 1 near the Dead Sea in 1947 were a thousand years earlier then the oldest dated manuscript previously known (980 AD), they proved to be word for word identical with our standard Hebrew Bible in more then 95% of the text.

The rest being different pronounciations and ways of saying the word (ina regular Torah scroll, they would use the exact word but when using them to teach kids, it was not a very hard ardent method getting every letter right.


A good read:

How do we know that the Torah we have today is the same text given on Mount Sinai?



The Torah was originally dictated from G-d to Moses, letter for letter. From there, the Midrash (Devarim Rabba 9:4) tells us:

Before his death, Moses wrote 13 Torah Scrolls. Twelve of these were distributed to each of the 12 Tribes. The 13th was placed in the Ark of the Covenant (with the Tablets). If anyone would come and attempt to rewrite or falsify the Torah, the one in the Ark would "testify" against him. (Likewise, if he had access to the scroll in the Ark and tried to falsify it, the distributed copies would "testify" against him.)

How were the new scrolls verified? An authentic "proof text" was always kept in the Holy Temple in Jerusalem, against which all other scrolls would be checked. Following the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, the Sages would periodically perform global checks to weed out any scribal errors.

WRITING A TORAH SCROLL
To eliminate any chance of human error, the Talmud enumerates more than 20 factors mandatory for a Torah scroll to be considered "kosher." This is the Torah's built-in security system. Should any one of these factors be lacking, it does not possess the sanctity of a Torah scroll, and is not to be used for a public Torah reading.
The meticulous process of hand-copying a scroll takes about 2,000 hours (a full-time job for one year). Throughout the centuries, Jewish scribes have adhered to the following guidelines:

• A Torah Scroll is disqualified if even a single letter is added.
• A Torah Scroll is disqualified if even a single letter is deleted.
• The scribe must be a learned, pious Jew, who has undergone special training and certification.
• All materials (parchment, ink, quill) must conform to strict specifications, and be prepared specifically for the purpose of writing a Torah Scroll.
• The scribe may not write even one letter into a Torah Scroll by heart. Rather, he must have a second, kosher scroll opened before him at all times.
• The scribe must pronounce every word out loud before copying it from the correct text.
• Every letter must have sufficient white space surrounding it. If one letter touched another in any spot, it invalidates the entire scroll.
• If a single letter was so marred that it cannot be read at all, or resembles another letter (whether the defect is in the writing, or is due to a hole, tear or smudge), this invalidates the entire scroll. Each letter must be sufficiently legible so that even an ordinary schoolchild could distinguish it from other, similar letters.
• The scribe must put precise space between words, so that one word will not look like two words, or two words look like one word.
• The scribe must not alter the design of the sections, and must conform to particular line-lengths and paragraph configurations.
• A Torah Scroll in which any mistake has been found, cannot be used, and must be fixed within 30 days, or buried.

SUCCESS OF THE SYSTEM
Maintaining the accuracy of any document as ancient and as large as the Torah is very challenging even under the best of circumstances.

But consider that throughout history, Jewish communities were subject to widespread persecutions and exile. Over the last 2,000 years, Jews have been spread to the four corners of the world, from Yemen to Poland, from Australia to Alaska.

Other historical factors make the accurate transmission of the Torah all the more difficult. For example, the destruction of the Temple 1,900 years ago saw the dissolution of the Sanhedrin, the Jewish central authority which traditionally would unify the Jewish people in case of any disagreements.
Let’s investigate the facts as we have them today. If we collect the oldest Torah scrolls and compare them, we can see if any garbling exists, and if so, how much.

How many letters are there in the Torah? 304,805 letters (or approximately 79,000 words).

If you were to guess, how many letters of these 304,805 do you think are in question? (Most people guess anywhere from 25 to 1,000 letters.)
The fact is, that after all the trials and tribulations, communal dislocations and persecutions, only the Yemenite Torah scrolls contain any difference from the rest of world Jewry. For hundreds of years, the Yemenite community was not part of the global checking system, and a total of nine letter-differences are found in their scrolls.
These are all spelling differences. In no case do they change the meaning of the word. For example, how would you spell the word "color?" In America, it's spelled C-O-L-O-R. But in England, it's spelled with a "u," C-O-L-O-U-R.
Such is the nature of the few spelling differences between Torah scrolls today. The results over thousands of years are remarkable!

TORAH COMPARED TO OTHER TEXTS

But how impressive is this compared to other similar documents, such as the Christian Bible? (Both books contain approximately the same number of words.)

First of all, which would you expect to be more successful in preserving the accuracy of a text?

The Christian Bible. For several reasons
.
First, the Christian Bible is about 1,700 years younger than the Torah. Second, the Christians haven't gone through nearly as much exile and dislocation as the Jews. Third, Christianity has always had a central authority (the Vatican) to ensure the accuracy of their text.

What are the results? The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible, a book written to prove the validity of the New Testament, says: " A study of 150 Greek [manuscripts] of the Gospel of Luke has revealed more than 30,000 different readings... It is safe to say that there is not one sentence in the New Testament in which the [manuscript] is wholly uniform."

Other scholars report there are some 200,000 variants in the existing manuscripts of the New Testament, representing about 400 variant readings which cause doubt about textual meaning; 50 of these are of great significance.

The Torah has nine spelling variants -- with absolutely no effect on the meaning of the words. The Christian Bible has over 200,000 variants and in 400 instances the variants change the meaning of the text.
The point of course is not to denigrate Christianity. Rather, this comparison demonstrates the remarkable accuracy of the Jewish transmission of Torah.

THE TORAH AND THE UNIVERS






There is a famous story in the Talmud (Eruvin 13a):

When Rabbi Meir came to Rabbi Yishmael to learn Torah, he was asked:

"What is your profession, my son?"

"I am a scribe," was the reply.

He said to me: "My son, be careful with your work, for it is the work of Heaven. Should you perhaps omit one letter or add one letter -- it could result that you destroy the entire world

Rebbe Meir remarked: "Needless to say, I do not err by omitting or adding (letters)... but I am even concerned for a fly -- lest it come and alight upon the right-hand corner of a dalet and erase it, thereby rendering it a reish

The famed commentator Rashi (11th century France) offers examples of how the addition or deletion of a single letter can lead to a blasphemous or heretical reading of the Torah -- i.e. a mistake that could destroy the entire world.

Maharsha (16th century Poland) explains there is a danger even if the error does not affect the meaning of the word. This is because of a Kabbalistic tradition that the letters of the Torah form the sacred Names of G-d written as "black fire upon white fire." These letters were employed by G-d in creating the world, and it is through them that He sustains it. The deletion of even one letter of this sustaining force therefore threatens the existence of the world.

Carefully guarding the words of the Torah has been a Jewish priority throughout the centuries.

Since it has been recieved the Torah has been read 4 times a week every week. If one mistake of a word is made, halef of the jews in the room will shout out corrections! There is no way it could be changed.

ONE OF THE MANY CHAINS OF
TORAH TRANSMISSION:

G-d (Mt. Sinai ,= 1312 B.C.E.)

Moses (1272 B.C.E.)
Joshua (1245 B.C.E.)
Pinchus
Eli (929 B.C.E.)
Samuel (889 B.C.E.)
David (876 B.C.E.)
Achiah (800 B.C.E.)
Elijah (726 B.C.E.)
Elishah (717 B.C.E.)
Yehoyada (695 B.C.E.)
Zechariah (680 B.C.E.)
Hoshea (575 B.C.E.)
Amos (560 B.C.E.)
Isaiah (548 B.C.E.)
Michah (560 B.C.E.)
Yoel (510 B.C.E.)
Nachum (510 B.C.E.)
Chavakuk (510 B.C.E.)
Tzafaniah (460 B.C.E.)
Jeremiah (462 B.C.E.)
Baruch (347 B.C.E.)
Ezra (348 B.C.E.)
Shimon Hatzadik (310 B.C.E.)
Antignus of Socho (305 B.C.E.)
Yosi ben Yoezer and
Yosef ben Yochanon (280 B.C.E.)
Yehoshua ben Prachya and
Nitai of Arbel (243 B.C.E.)
Yehuda ben Tabai and
Shimon ben Shetach (198 B.C.E.)
Shmaya & Avtalyon (140 B.C.E.)
Hillel & Shammai (40 B.C.E.)
Rabban Shimon (10 B.C.E.)
Rabban Gamliel Hazaken (20 C.E.)
Rav Shimon ben Gamliel (50)
Rabban Gamliel (90)
Rabban Shimon (140)
Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi (180)
Rav, Shmuel, and Rabbi Yochanon (230)
Rav Huna (270)
Rabbah (310)
Rava (340)
Rav Ashi (420)
Rafram (443)
Rav Sam a B'rei d'Rava (476)
Rav Yosi (514)
Rav Simonia Rav Ravoi Me-Rov (589)
Mar Chanan Me-Ashkaya (608)
Rav Mari
Rav Chana Gaon
Mar Rav Rava
Rav Busai (689)
Mar Rav Huna Mari
Mar Rav Chiyah Me-Mishan
Mar Ravyah
Mar Rav Natronai
Mar Rav Yehuda (739)
Mar Rav Yosef (748)
Mar Rav Shmuel
Mar Rav Natroi Kahana
Mar Rav Avrohom Kahana (761)
Mar Rav Dodai
Rav Chananya (771)
Rav Maika (773)
Mar Rav Rava
Mar Rav Shinoi (782)
Mar Rav Chaninah Gaon Kahana (785)
Mar Rav Huna Mar Halevi (788)
Mar Rav Menasheh (796)
Mar Rav Yeshaya Halevi (804)
Mar Rav Kahanah Gaon (797)
Mar Rav Yosef
Mar Rav Ibomai Gaon (814)
Mar Rav Yosef
Mar Rav Avrohom
Mar Rav Yosef (834)
Mar Rav Yitzchak (839)
Mar Rav Yosef (841)
Mar Rav Poltoi (858)
Mar Rav Achai Kahana
Mar Rav Menachem (860)
Mar Rav Matisyahu (869)
Rav Mar Abba
Mar Rav Tzemach Gaon (891)
Mar Rav Hai Gaon (897)
Mar Rav Kimoi Gaon (905)
Mar Rav Yehuda (917)
Mar Rav Mevasser Kahana Gaon (926)
Rav Kohen Tzedek (935)
Mar Rav Tzemach Gaon (937)
Rav Chaninah Gaon (943)
Mar Rav Aharon Hacohen (959)
Mar Rav Nechemiah (968)
Rav Sherirah Gaon (1006)
Meshulam Hagadol
Rav Gershom Meor Hagolah (1040)
Rav Yaakov ben Yakar (1064)
Rav Shlomo Yitzchaki - '"Rashi'" (1105)
R' Shmuel ben Meir (Rashbam) (1174)
R' Yaakov ben Meir (Rabbenu Tam) (1171)
Eliezer Me-Metz (1175)
Rokeach (1238)
R' Yitzchak of Vienna (Ohr Zaruah)
Rav Meir of Rothenberg (1293)
R' Yitzchak of Duren (Shaarei Durah)
R' Alexander Zusiein Hakohen (Agudah) (1348)
Meir Bar Baruch Halevi (1390)
R' Sholom of Neustadt
R' Yaakov Moelin (Maharil) (1427)
R' Yisroel Isserlein (Trumas Hadeshen) (1460)
R' Tavoli
Rabbi Yaakov Margolies (1501)
Rabbi Yaakov Pollak (1530)
Rabbi Sholom Shachna (1558)
Rabbi Moshe Isserles '"Rama'" (1572)
Rabbi Yehoshua Falk Katz (1614)
Rabbi Naftoli Hirsch ben Pesachya (1650)
Rabbi Moshe Rivkas - '"Be'er Hagolah'" (1671)
Rabbi Avraham Gombiner (1682)
Rabbi Moshe Kramer (1688)
Rabbi Eliyahu Chasid (1710)
Rabbi Yissachar Ber (1740)
Rabbi Shlomo Zalman (1765)
Rabbi Eliyahu Kramer - '"Vilna Gaon'" (1797)
Rabbi Chaim Voloziner (1821)
Rabbi Zundel of Salant (1866)
Rabbi Yisroel Salanter (1883)
Rabbi Simcha Zissel of Chelm (1888)
Rabbi Yerucham Lebovitz (1936)
..
...
....
.....
......

[lavikor201]

Does the Torah ever explain why circumcision pleases God? Does it say anything about it to give a clue, other than God demands it as a sign of his covenant?

It is written in the Torah: "This is My covenant that you shall observe between Me and you and your children after you, to circumcise your every male. You shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall become the sign of a covenant between Me and you". This is the only commandment of the Torah called "the sign of a covenant" between God and the Jewish people. In fact, the Torah mentions the word "Brit" (Heb. covenant) 13 times in connection with circumcision, which is why the word "Brit" has become synonymous with circumcision.

The Torah mentions the word "Brit" 13 times in connection with circumcision
The covenant between G-d and the Jewish people is so profound and significant that the circumcision is performed at the earliest possible time in a person's life. The Torah tells us that this is on the eighth day after birth.

There's a lot written in Kabbalah and Chassidut. It's difficult reading in the original, but basically, what they are all saying is that the body has to be attuned to receiving G-dly energy and become one with that.

The effect of every Mitzvah is to take a portion of the physical world and make it spiritual. That could be the food we eat, the money we give to Tzedakah, the bed we provide to weary travelers--but it all starts with our own bodies.

Not everything is within our power to elevate to the spiritual. A cow that has been slaughtered according to the laws of shechita can be elevated by eating its meat for a Shabbos meal and using its hide to make a sefer Torah. A pig, no matter which way you slaughter it, can't be made spiritual by eating it. As far as we're concerned, it's stuck until another era when its impurity will be removed (--there's an opinion of the sages that the pig will become Kosher in the Time to Come). As it stands now, the meat of a pig is not fit to receive that G-dly energy. That's why it is called "assur", translated as "forbidden", but literally meaning "bound". It is tied and bound below, and cannot be elevated above.

When it comes to our own bodies, they also need a 'hakshara'--a preparation to make them fit to receive G-dliness. This way, the physical body itself can become a G-dly article, just like a sefer Torah. We must eat kosher food. And we must have a Brit. Until then, the soul may be pure and whole, but the body remains unattuned and foreign to anything G-dly. It's door is closed and G-dliness can only hover beyond it, unable to enter.

What about women? How is their body made fit? Several rabbis answer this, according to the tradition that Adam was created both man and woman and then separated. So each man and woman is only half a body. Which means that every Jewish woman does have a brit--at least potentially--in the flesh of the other half of her body, wherever he may roam.

There are two primary reasons why G-d commanded us to place the symbol of our covenant on the male sexual organ:

1. G-d wanted this sign to be in the very part of the body which symbolizes pleasure. This is supposed to be a constant reminder to us that we should be focused on our special relationship with G-d and not get lost in life's pleasures and vices. Basically, we should always keep in mind that which is important and that which is quite trivial.

2. We place our sign on our reproductive member for we pass on our covenant with G-d to our children.

[samah12]

Lavikor, thank you so much that was a great read and very interesting. I would like to ask a couple more questions, if I ask anything rude please forgive me it is not intentional.

1. Why do you type G-d that way?

2. Ok this sounds crazy coming from a Muslim but I am sure you have had this conversation many times. After reading your post I am left wondering why Muslims say the Torah has been changed so much?

3. Is it permissable for a non Jew to read the Torah?

The article about the Torah scrolls is at www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...062895,00.html it says the 2 scrolls are hundreds of years older than the dead sea scrolls. (I don't know how to cut & paste a link so let me know if it doesn't work maybe it is my bad typing).

[lavikor201]

1. Why do you type G-d that way?

It is forbidden to erase or deface the name of G-d, and this prohibition applies to all languages. We, therefore, insert a dash in middle of G-d's name, allowing us to erase or discard the paper it is written on if necessary.


In prayer books and holy writings G-d's name is written properly, for there is no fear that one will discard a holy text.

[Although "G-d" is not His name, it certainly is a word which is reserved for Him alone (as opposed to "Creator" or "the benevolent one" which can be used in other contexts as well). We show respect to G-d by not defacing or discarding a word which is designated for Him.]

2. Ok this sounds crazy coming from a Muslim but I am sure you have had this conversation many times. After reading your post I am left wondering why Muslims say the Torah has been changed so much?

To tell you the truth, I don't know. It may have been a tactic to get Jews to convert, I really am not sure.

It is irrelevant though because a Muslim who follows his scriptures which follow the seven laws of Noah, and does not try and stop a jew from following the Torah will go to heaven.

Anyway, I am sure Muslims have a response to my claims and I have a reponse to theirs. I have learned to let it be and they can believe what they wish. We all have our beliefs.

3. Is it permissable for a non Jew to read the Torah?

I guess. The sages say one of the saddest days was the day it was translted outside of Hebrew because the language barriers are so vast that the non-Jews or even Jew who could not speak hebrew would misnunderstand the Torah and point out "contradictions".

The article about the Torah scrolls is at www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...062895,00.html it says the 2 scrolls are hundreds of years older than the dead sea scrolls. (I don't know how to cut & paste a link so let me know if it doesn't work maybe it is my bad typing).

Don;t know much about them. The scrolls from the link are not full Torah scrolls, but texts from the Torah which match accuratly all the verses they are from which we have today.

[samah12]

[QUOTE=lavikor201;699072]It is forbidden to erase or deface the name of G-d, and this prohibition applies to all languages. We, therefore, insert a dash in middle of G-d's name, allowing us to erase or discard the paper it is written on if necessary.


In prayer books and holy writings G-d's name is written properly, for there is no fear that one will discard a holy text.

[Although "G-d" is not His name, it certainly is a word which is reserved for Him alone (as opposed to "Creator" or "the benevolent one" which can be used in other contexts as well). We show respect to G-d by not defacing or discarding a word which is designated for Him.]

Thank you, very interesting. I do wish someone would tell me how to do multiple quotes like that, it would make my posts easier to read.

So more questions, just ignore me if I bore you.

We are all speaking of the same being, Muslims call Him Allah, Christians call him God, Jehovah's witnesses call him Jehovah. May I ask what is the correct Jewish name for Him (I know you will have to put a dash in but hopefully I will be able to read it).

To tell you the truth, I don't know. It may have been a tactic to get Jews to convert, I really am not sure.

It is irrelevant though because a Muslim who follows his scriptures which follow the seven laws of Noah, and does not try and stop a jew from following the Torah will go to heaven.

Anyway, I am sure Muslims have a response to my claims and I have a reponse to theirs. I have learned to let it be and they can believe what they wish. We all have our beliefs.

I will ask my husband. Nice attitude though.

I guess. The sages say one of the saddest days was the day it was translted outside of Hebrew because the language barriers are so vast that the non-Jews or even Jew who could not speak hebrew would misnunderstand the Torah and point out "contradictions".

So if you are a Jew born in say England, will you be taught to speak Hebrew so you can read the Torah? And would this apply to girls as well?

QUOTE]

[lavikor201]

We are all speaking of the same being, Muslims call Him Allah, Christians call him God, Jehovah's witnesses call him Jehovah. May I ask what is the correct Jewish name for Him (I know you will have to put a dash in but hopefully I will be able to read it).

We may not say it, nor write it. I won't even dare write the full name of G-d even with a dash. We do not even say it in prayer. We use terms like "L-rd" or "G-d" in prayer, not G-d's name though.

I will ask my husband. Nice attitude though.

There is nothing to ask. If your husbands a Muslim we obviously disagree.

So if you are a Jew born in say England, will you be taught to speak Hebrew so you can read the Torah? And would this apply to girls as well?

Yes, as well as to pray since Jewish prayer is conducted in Hebrew.

[samah12]

We may not say it, nor write it. I won't even dare write the full name of G-d even with a dash. We do not even say it in prayer. We use terms like "L-rd" or "G-d" in prayer, not G-d's name though.



There is nothing to ask. If your husbands a Muslim we obviously disagree.



Yes, as well as to pray since Jewish prayer is conducted in Hebrew.

Just out of curiousity, is it written in the Torah? I only ask because surely if you cannot say it or write it then is it not forgotten?

My husband is a Muslim and I am a convert but I am not closed minded (I hope), so I just meant I will show him your post about the Torah not being changed and see why he says it has been.

May I just say that Hebrew is a beautiful language to look as, as is Arabic. English is awful, not pleasing to the eye at all but alas at least I understand it. :D

[lavikor201]

Just out of curiousity, is it written in the Torah? I only ask because surely if you cannot say it or write it then is it not forgotten?

Oh it is written in the Torah but when we read the Torah we say the word for "L-rd" in Hebrew instead of pronouncing G-d's name.

In everday speech we use the word "Hashem" to refer to G-d a lot of times which means "the name" in hebrew.

May I just say that Hebrew is a beautiful language to look as, as is Arabic. English is awful, not pleasing to the eye at all but alas at least I understand it.

LOL, I agree. :)

[samah12]

Oh it is written in the Torah but when we read the Torah we say the word for "L-rd" in Hebrew instead of pronouncing G-d's name.

In everday speech we use the word "Hashem" to refer to G-d a lot of times which means "the name" in hebrew.



LOL, I agree. :)

Thank you so much that is really interesting and sounds very respectful. I must away to sleep now but I hope I can ask you more questions another day, I am really rather fascinated.

[snakelegs]

The effect of every Mitzvah is to take a portion of the physical world and make it spiritual. That could be the food we eat, the money we give to Tzedakah, the bed we provide to weary travelers--but it all starts with our own bodies.

beautiful!

[Pygoscelis]

Just seems perplexing to me that God would make us in such a way that he then requires us to alter ourselves to be more in tune with him. Was there a time before circumcision was required? Does it have anything to do with the Adam and Eve story?

[lavikor201]

Just seems perplexing to me that God would make us in such a way that he then requires us to alter ourselves to be more in tune with him. Was there a time before circumcision was required? Does it have anything to do with the Adam and Eve story?

No. Circumscion was the mark for the Jewish people, and Adam was not a Jew. The first Jew was Abraham.

[lavikor201]

Please Read: Shabbat will be starting soon, so no Jews will be on tonight or tommorow, and then on sunday we will be preparing for pesakh (Passover) so most likely no Jews will be on at least until wednesday. Ask a question if you wish but be patient for an answer. (On pesakh no bread products and many other products can be eaten) See: LINK


Here is a little something on the story of Pesakh:


A. Pesach (pronounced PAY-sakh) is the Hebrew word for Passover. Pesach is a holiday that commemorates the Hebrews’ rapid departure from ancient Egypt. The Jews had just endured over 200 years of exile, including several decades of torturous slave labor, and now G-d was going to fulfill His promise to Abraham—the promise to redeem the Jews and do justice to their slave-masters. Right before the Exodus, G-d commands the Jews to sacrifice one lamb per family and mark the Jewish doorposts with its blood. This would be a sign for G-d to "pass over" the Jewish homes as He slew the Egyptian firstborn—the last of ten supernatural attacks on the Egyptians. This is the origin of the name "Passover."

In Hebrew, Egypt is Mitzrayim—etymologically related to meitzarim, or borders. The moral of the Exodus story is that we all can escape our personal EgyptsB. Passover is a Spring holiday; it starts on the 15th of Nissan (usually sometime in April) and lasts for eight days (in Israel, seven days). The first two and last two days (in Israel, only the first and last day) are major holidays, i.e. on these days it is forbidden to work, drive, turn on or off a light, etc. The middle days are Chol Hamoed.

C. We observe Passover much the same way the Jews did on the first 15th of Nissan in Egypt. Pesach is observed by sacrificing a lamb, eating “bitter herbs”, and Matzah, and purging one’s house of any grain-based leavened item. The lamb is not done today due to the Temple’s absence, but everything else is: the mad, meticulous scrubbing and cleaning of every nook and cranny, the Seders on the first two nights, and the Shabbat-like services on the first and last days.

D. The lesson of Pesach is that you have unlimited potential. In Hebrew, Egypt is Mitzrayim—etymologically related to meitzarim, or borders. The moral of the Exodus story is that we all can escape our personal Egypts. And the seek-and-destroy-any-leavened-particle part of Passover teaches us to eradicate our puffed-up, inflated, doughy egos and be simple, flat, unleavened Matzot. The holiday of Pesach contains innumerable lessons, laws and customs. Browse our knowledge base for more information about this beautiful holiday; and if you are finished and still want more, go to Passover.net.


Evidence that the Jews were enslaved in Egypt and saved?

There is plenty of archeological evidence that indicate that the Jews were enslaved in Ancient Egypt. Many books have been written on this topic, one of them is “Israel in Egypt – Evidence for the Authenticity of the Exodus Tradition” written by James Hoffmeier.

Additionally a papyrus was found in Egypt in the nineteenth century which describes in detail many of the plagues and the Exodus itself. This papyrus, which currently resides in a Dutch museum, is known as the Ipuwer Papyrus, which was written by an Egyptian who was an eye-witness to these events.

Nevertheless, is there any more compelling evidence than the fact that for more than 3,000 years Jews have sat down by the Seder table and repeated the exact same story to their children? This is a chain of a direct unbroken tradition passed down from fathers who saw the events, to their children who in turn passed it down to their children, who passed it down to their children...

What were the Ten Plagues?
by Mrs. Nechama D. Kumer

1. Blood: All water turned to blood, including both river water and water in a cup. An Egyptian could only obtain water by buying it from a Jewish person.

2. Frogs: These amphibious friends made their way into every nook and cranny of the Egyptians’ homes, croaking cacophony until they themselves croaked, leaving a rotting stench in their wake. So valiant were the frogs in their mission, they would even jump to their demise into a hot oven in their determination to ruin the Egyptians’ baking bread.

3. Lice: these tiny insects were itching to bug the Egyptians. This was the first plague that the black magicians could not duplicate, proving that the plagues were G-d’s doing and not Moses’ fancy magic tricks.

4. Mixture of Beasts: Lions, tigers and bears (and a lot more wild things) attacked the Egyptians.

5. Pestilence: All Egyptian owned animals that were outdoors bit the dust.

6. Boils: The Egyptians broke out in boils.

7. Hail: Fire and ice came together in monster sized hailstones, killing any Egyptian who ventured outdoors and destroying much of their crops.

8. Locusts: Locusts of all shape and size consumed anything they could get their pincers on that remained after the hail did its part. Then, G-d had the wind blow every last locust into the sea, so they wouldn’t then become the Egyptians’ soup de jour for lack of much else to eat.

9. Darkness: At first it was really, really, really dark...and then the darkness became so thick that the Egyptians could not even move, remaining frozen until the plague passed.

10. Smiting of the First Born: At the stroke of midnight, every firstborn male person and animal died. No household was spared, and most lost several members. The only one who was spared, was...Pharaoh himself, but boy was he scared...and don’t say we didn’t warn you...

For the most part, the plagues only affected the Egyptians while the Jews remained plague-less.

The Wildest Story Ever Told
by Rabbi Tzvi Freeman

Everybody's got a story to tell. But how many people purposely and happily tell a story that makes them look, well, sort of bad?
The Jews do. Who else but the Jews would focus their core beliefs around the memory that "We were slaves to a terrible tyrant in a powerful land, and our G-d, Master of the Entire Universe, took us out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm.

"No one else claimed this story for their own. And why would they want to? Who wants to be the descendant of a slave? Who wants to believe that they were "powerless" until someone else saved them? Who wants to give all the credit to their G-d?

The story of the Jews' Exodus from Egypt has a miraculousness about it that runs counter to human practicality. That's why it's possible for people and textbooks to deny the whole thing could have ever taken place. Even if you believe in a Creator, this story is still hard to swallow. Moses himself forecast this incredulity when he said, "Ask the previous generations, from the time the world was formed . . . was there ever such a thing in the world . . . that G-d would take a nation out of another nation with signs and wonders and all sorts of miracles . . . ?"

this story is supposed to sound impossible...because it goes against what the human mind likes to imagineThat's just the point: this story is supposed to sound impossible. Not because the human mind is too limited to imagine these "wild" miracles, but because it goes against what the human mind likes to imagine. The human mind loves simple, organized systems: higher to lower, simple to complex, few to many. Where we can create order, we create it. Where order defies us, we impose it. And if it refuses to obey, we simply ignore the data and delude ourselves into imagining that order exists regardless.
Great minds disagree. Einstein protested, "True, things should be made as simple as possible — but no simpler!" Good ol' Albert was only echoing the sages of his Jewish heritage who, in so many different ways, declared the same call for empiricism. As Maimonides put it, "Opinions don't affect reality. Reality makes opinions."

These men, however, are the exceptions. For most of history, man imposed hierarchy everywhere, even on gods and nature. The Ultimate, Big G-d who made everything had to be at the top, very far away from it all, so as not to get His "pristine ultimateness" sullied by this mess He created. Lesser gods took care of the forces of nature, and the lowest ones dealt with mundane human crises (assuming the humans involved could deliver a top-notch bribe).

An Infinite G-d is everywhere, precisely because He is Infinite and unboundedEasy to categorize, easy to understand: material universe on bottom, the infinite on top, and an intricate hierarchy in between. Until Moses came along, that was the way Pharaoh looked at things. Moses "introduced" Pharaoh to something radical: the Infinite Supreme Being has no hierarchy. An Infinite G-d is everywhere, precisely because He is Infinite and unbounded. He is in the river, in the animals, in the wind, in the fire and the hail and the sun, in life and in death. He is entirely beyond the limitations of the world and yet intimately involved with it at the same time. In fact, G-d is so involved with the world, He created miracles to redeem a nation of slaves from its oppressor. That is why the Jewish people are not easily understood: we reject "simple" hierarchy, we are counter-intuitive. "Why," others moan, "are you looking for G-d in those strange places? Don't you know G-d is to be found in the universal, in the heavenly, in those matters so general as to encompass all mankind? What is your obsession with the minutiae of material ritual and physical objects?"
But the Jew is the one who says the Infinite G-d is not "over the sea or up in the heavens," not something intangible that cannot be touched, not too ethereal to be real, nor too lofty to relate to our lives. The Infinite is here now. Whatever situation you're in, there is always a simple deed you can do to bond with the Infinite.

This is Judaism: the meeting between the finite material world and Infinite G-dliness. While others search for G-d up on high, we find G-d in the woolen strings hanging from our clothes. We find G-d in the light of a wax candle and in a cup of wine. We find G-d in the sound of children's voices reading His Torah.

We find G-d in the crunch and swallow of a Matza on Passover night. We find G-d in a simple story about a group of slaves liberated from a powerful land. We find G-d.

[Hemoo]

i have some questions :

1- if a married man or woman commits an adultery, what is his/her punishment in the torah and judaism?

2- what if the one who commited the adultery is not married, does jews have another punishment?

3- mention all sort of physical punishments that is applied on the one who commits the prohibited actions ?

i hope this is not so much questions ,and thanks for your replies...

[Philosopher]

What is the Jewish ruling on divorce? Is it a sin?

[thirdwatch512]

one question...

1. What are the requirments for being a prophet?

2. Is it true that the majority of Jews must live in israel before prophethood can start again?

3. how does mohammad not fit the eligability of prophethood?

4. what do you think of the poetry in the qu'ran?

5.do most jews typically believe that a messiah will come, or rather just simply a messianic era?

[lavikor201]

Just seems perplexing to me that God would make us in such a way that he then requires us to alter ourselves to be more in tune with him. Was there a time before circumcision was required? Does it have anything to do with the Adam and Eve story?

We cannot explain many of the things that G-d commands us to do, but with our limited knowledge and with his infinite wisdom, we must assume that we must be like new born babies trying to understand what is going on in an algebra text book. The babies being us, and the text book being the Torah.

1- if a married man or woman commits an adultery, what is his/her punishment in the torah and judaism?

The punishment would be death is two witnesses saw the event occur and warned the guilty person that he would be put to death if he continued committing the crime. If that did not occur then the punishment would be up to the courts.

2- what if the one who commited the adultery is not married, does jews have another punishment?

If it is an unmarried Jewish women that the unmarried male commites adultery with, then they will probably have to get married.

As with all forbidden relationships in the Torah this carries an additional prohibition of “yichud” – private seclusion with the opposite gender. The Talmud (Avoda Zara, 36b) derives this from the verse, “If your brother, the son of your mother, entice you.. (Deuteronomy 13:7).”

According to many opinions, Maimonides (Ishus 1:4) among them, there’s an additional prohibition of “There must not be any prostitutes among Israelite girls. Similarly, there must be no male prostitutes (Deuteronomy 23:18).” These opinions understand that a prostitute is not only a woman, or man, who has relations freely and indiscriminately, but one who has any relations without marriage.

There’s also a positive command in Deuteronomy 24:1 that says, “When a man has taken a wife, and married her…” The Hebrew word used here for marriage is “U’Boalah,” meaning to have relations with her. This requires that people must marry first (See Maggid Mishna on Maimonides ibid.).

mention all sort of physical punishments that is applied on the one who commits the prohibited actions ?

Stoning is one, I don't know them off the top of my head.

Let me remind you though that witnesses had to warn the person of his crime and that he would be put to death while he was doing the crime for him to be put to death. Therefore, the death penalty was almost never used, but prison for life, exile and others instead.

What is the Jewish ruling on divorce? Is it a sin?

Divorce is aloud. A get (גט, plural gittim or gittin) is the Hebrew word for a divorce document, which is presented by a husband to his wife on the occasion of their divorce. The essential text of the get is quite short: "You are hereby permitted to all men," i.e. you are no longer a married woman, and the laws of adultery no longer apply. The get also returns to the wife the legal rights which a husband holds in regard to his wife in a Jewish marriage.

1. What are the requirments for being a prophet?

2. Is it true that the majority of Jews must live in israel before prophethood can start again?

In four chapters of the Fundamentals of Torah, Maimonides gives a thorough and clear definition of what is required of a true prophet (the following is a free translation):

Chapter 7

1) One of the bases of religion is to know that G-d visits people in prophetic visions, which come only to exceedingly wise people of outstanding characteristics, whose inclinations never lead them to earthly matters but who always conquer their inclinations, and who are of correct temperaments. A person who fulfils these criteria, and is of perfect health, will, when studying esoterical philosophy and is attracted by those elevated issues and is of an appropriate temperament to understand and comprehend them , and sanctifies himself by moving away from anybody who concerns himself with ephemeral matters, and encourages himself not to have any thoughts about useless matters and its contrivances, have his thoughts permanently attuned to above, from under G-d's Throne, to understand the pure and holy forms, and looks upon the wisdom of G-d [in Creation] in its entirety, from the first form [i.e the Holy Chayot] till the centre of the Earth, and sees in them G-d's greatness, and then prophecy will immediately come to him. At the time when prophecy comes to him, his soul will be on the same level as that of the Ishim angels, and he will become a different man, and he will realize that he is not [any more] as he was, but will rise above the level of other wise men, as it is written, "...and you shall prophesy with him, and shall be turned into another man".

2) There are [many] levels of prophecy - in the same way that one person can be wiser than another, so can he be more prophetic. Prophetic insights come only in nocturnal visions in dreams, or by day after falling asleep, as it is written, "I the L-rd make Myself known to him in a vision, and speak to him in a dream". Whenever one is receiving a prophecy, one's limbs shake, the strength of one's body weakens, and one's thoughts become disturbed, leaving one's mind free to understand what one will see, as it is written in connection with Abraham, "...and, lo, a horror of great darkness fell upon him", and as it is written in connection with Daniel, "...for my comely appearance was horribly changed, and I retained no strength".

3) What is made known to a prophet during prophecy is done so by way of parable, and he will immediately realize what the parable means. For instance, when Jacob the Patriarch saw the ladder with angels ascending and descending it, it was a parable representing monarchy and its subjection. Similarly, the animals which Ezekiel saw, the boiling pot and almond tree which Jeremiah saw, and all the other objects seen by the other Prophets were also parables. Of the Prophets, some, like those mentioned above, related what they saw in their prophecy and their interpretation of it, whereas some related just their interpretation. Sometimes they related just the parables [of the prophecy], like Ezekiel and Zachariah sometimes did. All of the Prophets prophesized by way of parables and riddles.

4) None of the Prophets receive prophecies whenever they wanted, but they would attune their thoughts, be happy and of a good heart, and seek solitude, for prophecy does not come to those who are sad or lazy, but only to those who are happy. Therefore, the sons of prophets would have before them harps, drums and flutes, and would seek prophecy, as it is written, "...and they shall prophesy", that is to say that they will follow the ways of prophecy until they prophesize, progressing as they go.

5) Those who seek prophecy are called the sons of prophets. Even though they attune their thoughts, the Divine Presence may, or may not, inspire them.

6) All the Prophets, from the first to the last, prophesized in these ways, with the exception of Moses our Teacher, chief of the Prophets. In what ways did Moses differ from the other Prophets? Firstly, whereas the other Prophets received their prophecies in a dream or vision, Moses received his while awake and standing, as it is written, "And when Moses was in the Tent of Meeting to speak with Him, he heard the voice speaking to him, et cetera". Secondly, the other Prophets received their prophecies via an angel. Therefore, what they saw was by way of parable and riddle. Moses, on the other hand, did not receive his prophecies via an angel, as it is written, "With him I speak mouth to mouth", "And the L-rd spoke to Moses face to face", "...and the outward appearance of the L-rd does he behold", that is to say that what Moses saw what not by way of parable, but he saw each prophecy absolutely clearly without any parables or riddles. The Torah said about him, "...manifestly, and not in dark speeches", showing that when Moses received a prophecy he did not do so by way of riddles, but did so with clarity, and saw everything absolutely clearly. Thirdly, the other Prophets were scared [of their prophetic visions] and would shy away, but Moses wasn't and didn't. Scripture says, "...as a man speaks with a friend" - just as a man is not scared to listen to his friend, so Moses had the capabilities to understand his prophecies and to stand unafraid. Fourthly, none of the Prophets prophesized whenever they wanted to, but whenever G-d wanted to He would visit Moses and bestow upon him prophecy. Moses did not have to attune his thoughts or otherwise prepare himself, for the reason that he was always prepared and stood like a ministering angel. Therefore, he would receive prophecies at any time, as it is written, "Stand still and I will hear what the L-rd will command concerning you". In this G-d trusted him, as it is written, "Go say to them, `Return to your tents'. But as for you, stand here by Me, and I will speak to you, et cetera". From here we see that whenever any of the other Prophets had finished prophesizing they would return to their houses [and families] and other bodily needs, like everybody else, so they therefore did not separate themselves from their wives. Moses, on the other hand, did not return to his home, and separated himself from his wife, and all that resembled her, for ever. His mind was [always] connected to G-d, and G-d's glory never left him at all; light emanated from his face, and he was holy like an angel.


Whenever one is receiving a prophecy, one's limbs shake, the strength of one's body weakens, and one's thoughts become disturbed, leaving one's mind free to understand what one will see7) It is possible for the prophecy of a prophet to be for him alone, to widen his outlooks and to increase his knowledge so that he will not know what he [previously] did not know from these great matters. It is also possible that he has to deliver the prophecy to one of the nations of the world, or to the people of a [particular] town, or to the citizens of a nation, [in order] to teach them wisdom, and to let them know what to do, or to prevent them from doing [again] any bad deeds. When a prophet is sent [by G-d] on such a mission, he is given a sign and proof [to present], so that people will know that G-d [really] sent him in truth. Not everyone who presents a sign and proof is believed as a prophet, but only those people who are known to be suitable to receive prophecies on account of their wisdom and actions, and that they went in the ways of prophecy in its holiness and exegeses. When such people present a sign and proof and say that G-d sent them, it is a commandment to listen to them, for it is written, "...to him you shall listen". It is possible that although a person presents a sign and proof he is not a prophet, and the sign could be achieved by other means; even so, we are commanded to listen to him; because he is a great and wise man who is suitable to receive prophecy, we assume that his prophecy is true. In this we have commanded, just as we have been commanded to decide a verdict according to the testimony of two people who are eligible to bear testimony [together], even though they may be lying; since they have always been honest in the past, we assume that they being honest now as well. About this and similar matters it is written, "The secret things belong to the L-rd our G-d, but those things which are revealed belong to use and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of the Torah", and it is also written, "...for a man looks on the outward appearance, but the L-rd looks on the heart".

Chapter 8

1) The Children of Israel did not believe in Moses [solely] because of the signs he presented, for someone who believes [in a prophet solely] because of the signs he presents is tainted, for it could be that his signs are performed by means of spells and witchcraft. All the signs that Moses performed in the wilderness were done so according to the needs of the moment, and not to bring proof to his prophecies. There was a need to sink the Egyptians, so Moses split the sea and drowned them in it; the Children of Israel needed food, so Moses brought down the manna for them; they needed water, so Moses split the rock for them; Korah and his followers rebelled, so Moses opened up the ground and they were swallowed up. The same principle applies with all the other signs. It was the assembly at Mount Sinai that made them believe in Moses, when our eyes, and no-one else's, saw, and our ears, and no-one else's, heard, and Moses drew near to the darkness, and the voice spoke to him, and we heard it saying to Moses, "Moses, Moses, go tell them such-and-such". In connection with this it is written, "The L-rd talked with you face to face", and it is also written, "The L-rd did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us". From where is it known that the assembly at Mount Sinai was the proof that the prophecy of Moses was true and that he was not speaking basely? It is derived from the verse, "Lo, I come to you in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with you, and believe you for ever". From this we see that prior to the assembly at Mount Sinai their belief in Moses was not one that would have lasted for ever, but it was a belief that left room for discussion and thought.


The Children of Israel did not believe in Moses [solely] because of the signs he presented, for someone who believes [in a prophet solely] because of the signs he presents is tainted, for it could be that his signs are performed by means of spells and witchcraft2) It would transpire that those people to whom a prophet is sent are witnesses that his prophecy is true, and he need not perform any other sign, for them and they combine to form one unit with respect to this matter, in the same way that two people who saw the same thing together combine as witnesses, for each of them is a witness that the other is speaking the truth, and need not bring [additional] proof to back him up. So it was with Moses our Teacher, that all of the Children of Israel were his witnesses after the assembly at Mount Sinai, and he didn't have to perform for them any signs. This is what G-d said to him at the time when his prophecy started, when He showed him what signs to perform in Egypt: "And they shall listen to your voice". Moses knew that anyone who believes [solely] because of signs is tainted and will be doubtful, and expressed a reluctance to go by saying, "But behold they will not believe me". G-d told him that these signs will [continue to be performed and] applied only until they had left Egypt and assembled at Mount Sinai, whereupon any doubt will vanish, and also assured him that [at Mount Sinai] He will give signs that Moses had been sent by G-d in truth from the [very] beginning, and that no doubt will remain. This is what Scripture says: "...and this shall be a sign to you that I have sent you; when you have brought the people out of Egypt, you shall G-d upon this mountain". From this we learn that any Prophet that came after Moses is not believed solely because of his signs to make us think that if he makes a sign we should listen to everything he says, but [is believed] because of the commandment of Moses in the Torah: "...to him you shall listen", if he gives a sign. Just as we have been commanded to decide a matter according to the testimony of two witnesses, even though we do not know if his sign is Divine or achieved by spells and witchcraft.

3) Therefore, if a prophet arose and performed great signs and wonders, and tells us to deny the prophecy of Moses our Teacher, we do not listen to him, and we [will] know for sure that his signs are the result of spells and witchcraft. The prophecy of Moses was not dependant upon signs, so the signs of this prophet cannot outweigh the signs of Moses, for we saw and heard them, just as he did. This is similar to two witnesses who bear testimony that a particular person did a particular thing in front of them, but he is not like they say he is, so we do not listen to them and we know for sure that they are false witnesses. Therefore, the Torah said that if a prophet comes with signs and wonders, we do not listen to him, for he is coming to deny that what we saw with our eyes. Since we believe in wonders only because of a commandment of Moses, how can we accept a sign that is brought to deny the prophecy of Moses which we saw and heard?!

Chapter 9

1) It is explicitly and clearly stated in the Torah that it [the Torah] is an everlasting Mitzvah, and cannot be changed, subtracted from or added to, as it is written, "Every matter which I command you observe to do it; you shall not add to it, or subtract from it", and it is also written, "...but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of the Torah". From here we see that we have been commanded to keep all the commandments of the Torah for always. In connection with this it is written, "...a statute for ever throughout your generations", and it is also written, "It is not in heaven". From here we see that a prophet may not make any changes [at all] in the Torah. Therefore, if a man, whether a gentile or a Jew, arises and performs signs and wonders, and says that G-d sent him to add to, or take away from, a mitzvah, or to institute a new mitzvah which we did not hear from Moses, or says that the commandments with which we have been commanded are not for eternity but are meant only for a temporary period, then he is a false prophet, for he has come to undermine the prophecy of Moses. His punishment is death by strangulation, which is the punishment for deliberately speaking in the name of G-d without having been commanded to do so. G-d told Moses that all the commandments are for eternity, and no man can accuse G-d of being deceitful.


If a prophet predicts something bad, such as that so-and-so will die, or that this year will be one of war or famine, et cetera, and his prediction did not come true, then it is not a disproof of his prophecy and we do not label him as a false prophet, for the reason that God is exceedingly merciful and [often] revokes bad decrees2) If so, why is it written in the Torah, "I will raise up for them a prophet from amongst their brethren, like you, and will put My words in his mouth, and he shall say to them all that I shall command him"? The prophet in question does not come to start a [new] religion, but to reiterate the commandments of the Torah and to warn the people not to transgress them, as the last Prophet said, "Remember the Torah of Moses My servant". Similarly, if he gave us commandment in optional matters, such as by saying, `Go (or don't go) to such-and-such a place', or, `Start (or don't start) a war today', or, `Build (or don't build) a wall here', et cetera, we are commanded to listen to him, and anyone who doesn't is liable to death at the hands of G-d, for it is written, "And it shall come to pass, that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My Name, I will require it of him".

3) Similarly, a prophet who himself transgresses his own words, and a prophet who ignores his prophecy [and does not deliver it], are also liable to death at the hands of G-d, for it is written, "I will require it of him". Similarly, if a prophet who is known to be a [true] prophet tells us to transgress one, or many, of the commandments of the Torah, whether of the stringent or of the more lenient ones, but only as a temporary practice, then we are commanded to listen to him. So we learnt from the first Sages, that we should listen to a prophet whatever the commandments he tells us to transgress are, as with Elijah at Mount Carmel, except if the commandment he tells us to transgress is that of not practicing idolatry, and provided that he tells us to transgress only as a temporary practice, like Elijah did at Mount Carmel, when he offered sacrifices outside Jerusalem, which is the city chosen for offering sacrifices in, and anyone who does so outside Jerusalem is liable to karet. Even so, since Elijah was a prophet, it was a mitzvah to listen to him. The verse, "...to him you shall listen" applies also in situations like the one with Elijah. Had the people asked Elijah how he could violate the Torah verse of, "Take heed to yourself that you do not offer your burnt offerings in any place that you see", he could have told them that anyone offering sacrifices outside the Temple is liable to karet, in accordance with what Moses commanded, but he was offering sacrifices outside the Temple in accordance with what G-d had said to him, and in order to discredit the prophets of Ba'al. In this manner we are commanded to listen to any prophet who tells us to transgress as a temporary measure. If he tells us that a commandment of the Torah is to be abolished for ever, then his punishment is death by strangulation, for it is written, "...belong to us and to our children for ever".

4) Similarly, if he tries to abolish [for ever] a Rabbinical institution or decree, or, concerning one of the Laws of the Torah he says that G-d commanded for the Law to be one way,, but we practice [in a different way] according to the words of so-and-so, then he is a false prophet and is put to death by strangulation, even if he shows a sign, for he is trying to disprove the Torah's statement of, "It is not in heaven". If, however, he said that we should do what he says only as a temporary measure, we listen to him.

5) This is talking about any commandment other than the one not to serve idols, for if he told us to serve idols we do not listen to him, even if he told us to do so only as a temporary measure. Even if he performed great signs and wonders and says that G-d has commanded that we serve idols on a particular day, or at a particular hour, he is trying to turn us away from G-d, and about this it is written, "And the sign or wonder come to pass...you shall not listen to the words of that prophet...because he has spoken to turn you away from the L-rd your G-d", for he is trying to disprove the prophecy of Moses. Therefore, we know for sure that he is a false prophet, and that all his signs are the result of spells and witchcraft, and he must be put to death by strangulation.


If a man says that G-d sent him to add to, or take away from, a mitzvah, or to institute a new mitzvah which we did not hear from Moses, then he is a false prophetChapter 10

1) Any prophet who arises and says that G-d sent him does not have to perform a sign of the type that Moses, Elijah or Elishah did, which involved supernatural events. Instead, the sign that he has to perform is to predict the future, and we have to believe him, as it is written, "And if you say in your heart, `How shall we know the word which the L-rd has not to spoken?'". Therefore, when a man suitable for prophecy comes in the Name of G-d, without wanting to add to or take away from, any of the commandments, but wants us to serve G-d properly, we do not ask him to split the sea, or to resurrect the dead, or to perform some other supernatural event, and then believe him, but we tell him to predict the future because he is a prophet, which he does, and we wait to see if what he says happens or not. Even if was wrong in only a small matter, he is a false prophet, but if all of what he said comes true, then he is believed.

2) A prophet has to be checked many times. If all his words are true then he is a prophet, as it says with respect to Samuel, "And all Israel, from Dan to Be'er-Sheva, knew that Samuel was accredited as a prophet of the L-rd".

3) Enchanters and diviners also predict the future, so how do they differ from a prophet? Of what enchanters and diviners say some comes true and some does not, as it is written, "Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save you from these things shall come upon you" - it says, "from these things", and not, "from all these things", so it is possible that not all of what they said will come true, and that they were mistaken in everything, as it is written, "...that frustrates the omens of imposters, and makes diviners mad". With respect to a [true] prophet, all of what he says comes true, as it is written, "Know now that nothing shall fall to the earth of the word of the L-rd", and it is also written, "The prophet that has a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that has My word, let him speak My word faithfully. What is the chaff of the wheat? says the L-rd", that is to say that the words of diviners is like some chaff into which some wheat has been mixed, whereas the words of the L-rd are completely true, with no falsehoods at all. This is backed up by Scripture, which says that prognosticators and diviners deceive the nations with their words, but a prophet makes known truthful matters, and we do not have to enchant or divine [to verify his words], for it is written, "There must not be found among you anyone that makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire...for these nations...The L-rd your G-d will raise up for you a prophet from amongst you". From here we see that a prophet makes known only earthly matters, such as famine or plenty, war or peace, and similar things. Prophets even answer the needs of the one, such as when Saul had lost an item and went to a prophet to help him find it. A prophet may say what he wants provided that he does not start another religion, add a mitzvah or take one away.

4) If a prophet predicts something bad, such as that so-and-so will die, or that this year will be one of war or famine, et cetera, and his prediction did not come true, then it is not a disproof of his prophecy and we do not label him as a false prophet, for the reason that G-d is exceedingly merciful and [often] revokes bad decrees, so it is possible that those on whom evil had been decreed had, like the citizens of Nineveh, repented, or had had their decree suspended, as with Hezekiah. But if, however, the prophet decreed good things and his prediction did not come true, then he is definitely a false prophet, for whenever G-d makes a good decree, even if it is conditional, He does not revoke it. From here we see that a prophet is tested only with respect to good matters. This is what Jeremiah said in his answer to Hananiah the son of Azur, when Jeremiah was prophesizing bad things and Hananiah good things: `If what I say does not come true, it is not a sign that I am a false prophet, but if what you say does not come true, it shows that you are a false prophet', for it is written, "Nevertheless, hear now this word...As for the prophet who prophecies for peace, when the word of that prophet shall come to pass, then shall it be known that the L-rd has truly sent the prophet".


A prophet who himself transgresses his own words, and a prophet who ignores his prophecy [and does not deliver it], are also liable to death at the hands of G-d5) If a prophet says about another prophet that he is [indeed] a prophet, then he is assumed to be a prophet, and the prophet who said it does not have to be cross-examined. Moses vouched for Joshua, and all of Israel believed in him before he performed a sign. Similarly in the following generations: it is forbidden to doubt or debate the prophecy of a prophet who has been found to be right time and time again, or the prophecy of a prophet who has been vouched for by another prophet, and it is [also] forbidden to test him excessively or for ever [for one who tests him is like one who tests G-d], for it is written, "Do not test the L-rd your G-d as you tested Him in Massah", when we said, "Is the L-rd among us, or not?". Once it has become known that he is a prophet, they will believe and know that G-d is amongst them, and they will nor debate or doubt his words, in accordance with what is written, "...yet they shall know that there has been a prophet amongst them". (This translation is copyright (c) Immanuel M. O'Lvey, 1993. This translation may be distributed in any form (on disk, printed, etc.) provided that it is done so on a non-profit basis and that this copyright and conditions message is left attached. The text used for this translation was the Rambam Le'Am, published by Mossad Ha'Rav Kook, Jerusalem. Words in the text that are in square brackets do not appear in the Rambam's writings. British spelling has been used, and Sephardit pronunciation has been used for words and phrases that have been transliterated. Comments are welcome by email - imo@medphys.ucl.ac.uk.)

3. how does mohammad not fit the eligability of prophethood?

G-d said the Torah and the mitzvot would be eternal for all Jews and so is his covanent. Mohamad claimed that the Torah was corrupted and many of the laws no longer valid for Jews, and told them to convert to his religion.


G-d says that many false prophets may perform miracles, but as Jews we may not rely on such miracles, but the what the Torah tells us in Deut:

13:2[This is what you must do] when a prophet or a person who has visions in a dream arises among you. He may present you with a sign or miracle,

13:3 and on the basis of that sign or miracle, say to you, 'Let us try out a different god. Let us serve it and have a new spiritual experience.'

13:4 Do not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. G-d your L-rd is testing you to see if you are truly able to love G-d your L-rd with all your heart and all your soul.

13:5 Follow G-d your L-rd, remain in awe of Him, keep His commandments, obey Him and serve Him, and you will then be able to have a true spiritual experience through Him.

13:6 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for having spoken rebelliously against G-d your L-rd, who brought you out of Egypt and liberated you from the place of slavery. He was trying to make you leave the path that G-d your L-rd commanded you to walk, and you must destroy such evil from your midst.

4. what do you think of the poetry in the qu'ran?

I have read many great poems. Poetry is very sweet, but if the Qurans poetry as a book is its main proof, then I would have to say that the "miracle book" which would lead Jews to not "keep his commandments" as G-d said in the verse I posted above, falls into the category of a complete description of what a false prophet is suppose to do.

And by the way, I hear all the time the Quran is the most beautful thing anyone has ever heard, but Arabic is a poetic language. Let me tell you that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

5.do most jews typically believe that a messiah will come, or rather just simply a messianic era?

Jews who follow Judaism believe the Messiah or "Moshiakh" will come. However, Jews who follow these liberal movements may have other ideas, but that is not Torah Judaism, so there opinions on Judaism are as valid as Jews who follow Hinduism.

[Philosopher]

Do Jews believe in hell?

[lavikor201]

Do Jews believe in hell?

Yes, but hell in Judaism is very, VERY different than the eternal place of burning that is described in Christianity and Islam.

[Philosopher]

Yes, but hell in Judaism is very, VERY different than the eternal place of burning that is described in Christianity and Islam.

What is hell like in Judaism?

[lavikor201]

What is hell like in Judaism?

First, you must remove this silly notion that Islam and Christianity have beat down into your brain about "eternal suffering". Would a just G-d really punish almost all of his creations because they did not believe in a specific religion? Is it not narrow to say, convert to my religion or you will suffer in hell forever?!? What this was and is, is the scare tactic religions use to gain followers. Judaism preaches there is no need to convert to get to heaven, therefore, our main concern is how big we are. We reject potential converts sometimes for there benefit, because if they convert then they will be responsible for more laws, to follow, and is they are not 100% devoted and turn away, then they would have been better off following 7 simple laws. Conversion to Judaism must be soley to be a member of G-d's chosen people, and to completly follow the Torah. Some opinions do say though that Israelites in general are less endangered (Ber. 10a) than heretics, or, according to B. B. 10a, than the heathen to go to hell for long, but if they convert and reject the Torah, then they are in trouble!

Hell is a place which you would normally think is "purgatory". Hell is called "Gehinom". You see, philosopher, heaven is a place of complete spiritual purity. Therefore, when you die you cannot just walk in. The sins you have commited in your life, would make the place no pure.

Before entering the heaven, though, every soul must be refined, for it cannot enjoy the Divine Presence to the fullest degree with the pleasures and coarseness of our physical world still engraved on it. These would give the soul poor “reception” of divine radiance, and must be removed.

In order to restore the level of purity the soul had possessed before entering the physical world, it must undergo a degree of refinement commensurate to the degree which the body may have indulged itself. If a person sinned in this lifetime, as most of us do, then, to continue the radio analogy, we have serious interference. This means there is even more cleaning to be done. This cleaning process hurts, but is a spiritual and mental process designed not for retribution, but to allow one to truly enjoy his/her reward in Gan Eden. This cleaning process is called “Gehinom,” or, in the vernacular, “Hell.”

Not all souls merit Gehinom. It is for people who have done good but need to be purified. A handful of people are too evil for Gehinom, and they are punished eternally. Pharaoh is one example, Adolf Hitler I would guess would be another. I can say that a suicide bomber would be a perfect example as well, since not only did he kill himself, but killed others as well. So some, who for example tried to prevent the Jewish people as a whole from following all 613 mitzvot (laws) from the Torah may be punished (I have no idea how much) since the world was created for the Torah and mitzvot.

[rebelishaulman]

To add to lavikor201's post, these attributes are told in the Talmud to make your stay in hell a bit longer: adultery, idolatry, pride, mockery, hypocrisy, anger, etc. (Soṭah 4b, 41b; Ta'an. 5a; B. B. 10b, 78b; 'Ab. Zarah 18b; Ned. 22a).

From the JE:

I would also like to respond to "thirdwatch" by asking him to read this part of lavikor201's very long answer concerning a false prophet:

It is explicitly and clearly stated in the Torah that it [the Torah] is an everlasting Mitzvah, and cannot be changed, subtracted from or added to, as it is written, "Every matter which I command you observe to do it; you shall not add to it, or subtract from it", and it is also written, "...but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of the Torah". From here we see that we have been commanded to keep all the commandments of the Torah for always. In connection with this it is written, "...a statute for ever throughout your generations", and it is also written, "It is not in heaven". From here we see that a prophet may not make any changes [at all] in the Torah. Therefore, if a man, whether a gentile or a Jew, arises and performs signs and wonders, and says that G-d sent him to add to, or take away from, a mitzvah, or to institute a new mitzvah which we did not hear from Moses, or says that the commandments with which we have been commanded are not for eternity but are meant only for a temporary period, then he is a false prophet, for he has come to undermine the prophecy of Moses.

Have a good Pesach to all Jewish members.

[lavikor201]

Rebelishaulman, Avoda Zara 18b says "R. Simeon b. Lakish said: He who scoffs will fall into Gehenna" Is scoff and "mock" the same thing?

[rebelishaulman]

Rebelishaulman, Avoda Zara 18b says "R. Simeon b. Lakish said: He who scoffs will fall into Gehenna" Is scoff and "mock" the same thing?

It means the same thing.

[Grace Seeker]

Therefore, if a man, whether a gentile or a Jew, arises and performs signs and wonders, and says that G-d sent him to add to, or take away from, a mitzvah, or to institute a new mitzvah which we did not hear from Moses, or says that the commandments with which we have been commanded are not for eternity but are meant only for a temporary period, then he is a false prophet, for he has come to undermine the prophecy of Moses.

So, when Jesus said to his disciples: "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." That would be seen by Jews as proof enough that he was not a prophet of G-d.

Is the Messiah also going to be a prophet?

[Grace Seeker]

Not all souls merit Gehinom. It is for people who have done good but need to be purified. A handful of people are too evil for Gehinom, and they are punished eternally. Pharaoh is one example, Adolf Hitler I would guess would be another. I can say that a suicide bomber would be a perfect example as well, since not only did he kill himself, but killed others as well. So some, who for example tried to prevent the Jewish people as a whole from following all 613 mitzvot (laws) from the Torah may be punished (I have no idea how much) since the world was created for the Torah and mitzvot.

So, if Hitler and Pharaoh are sent to some other place than Gehinom, what is it called and what is it like?

[lavikor201]

So, when Jesus said to his disciples: "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." That would be seen by Jews as proof enough that he was not a prophet of G-d.

Do not add to the word that I am commanding you, and do not subtract from it. You must keep all the commandments of G-d your L-rd, which I am instructing you.
(Deut 4:2)

Adding a commandment such as the one you quoted is in violation of the Torah. Subtracting a commnadment, such as saying one does not need to observe the Sabbath is a violation of the Torah.

The fact that Jesus healed people on Shabbat is an example, of a false prophet will perform miracles and violate the Torah.

Is the Messiah also going to be a prophet?

I would say yes, but at the same time, he will be different from the regular prophets so he is different. I would just call him Moshiach.

So, if Hitler and Pharaoh are sent to some other place than Gehinom, what is it called and what is it like?

We don't know.

[Grace Seeker]

As I read history, it seems that a lot of ideas regarding hell and the devil were picked up by Jews (even if not Judaism) during the time of the Babylonian exile. For instance you the Tanakh does not portray G-d has having some arch nemesis that stands opposed to him, but the concept of Satan is present in Jewish lore enough that it appears to have been a widely held belief before the time of the Hasmodean kings.

Would it be a fair assessment to say that this was something gained (for better or worse) during the exile? Are any of those concepts still present in Judaism today? Of course they are not in the Torah, but might they be in some of the commentaries or writings of the rabbis?

[lavikor201]

As I read history, it seems that a lot of ideas regarding hell and the devil were picked up by Jews (even if not Judaism) during the time of the Babylonian exile. For instance you the Tanakh does not portray G-d has having some arch nemesis that stands opposed to him, but the concept of Satan is present in Jewish lore enough that it appears to have been a widely held belief before the time of the Hasmodean kings.

Would it be a fair assessment to say that this was something gained (for better or worse) during the exile? Are any of those concepts still present in Judaism today? Of course they are not in the Torah, but might they be in some of the commentaries or writings of the rabbis?

Heaven and Hell are not discussed at large in te written law/Torah, but instead in the Oral Torah/law.

If you wish I will elaborate tonight, or tommorow more on this subject, but I am in a rush.