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Grace Seeker

04-05-2007, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by lavikor201

Heaven and Hell are not discussed at large in te written law/Torah, but instead in the Oral Torah/law.

If you wish I will elaborate tonight, or tommorow more on this subject, but I am in a rush.

Please. But only as you are able. I certainly understand what it means to not have time. It may be next week before I even have time to come back to read your response.

One other thing I think I need more help understanding is the role of Oral Torah. How is it/was it preserved? (Orally, I know. But there must be more to it, for while the written Torah could be checked, what were the checks on the Oral Torah?) Would the Oral Torah have evolved over time? Why have both a written and an oral Torah? Are both equally authoritative to the life and practice of Jews? Is it also considered scripture? What is the relationship between the Oral Torah and the Talmud? What is the difference between Oral Torah and folklore? Since I have no one to tell me the Oral Torah, how can I study it today (in English)?

lavikor201

04-05-2007, 01:39 PM

[QUOTE]One other thing I think I need more help understanding is the role of Oral Torah. How is it/was it preserved? (Orally, I know. But there must be more to it, for while the written Torah could be checked, what were the checks on the Oral Torah?)

The sages all knew it by heart, the Oral tradition although Jews have spreadin many parts of the world remained the same. Of course there are opinions on the best way tio follow the Oral Tradition which are recorded in the Talmud. The Oral tradition is our proof that we are the chosen. When the greek translation appeared non-Jews had our Holy Torah, but creating a religion as the basis of it, is nothing if you do not have the Oral tradition to go along and explain every law and how to follow it.

Many times in the Torah it is said, "and you shall follow this the way I have taught you/commanded you". Yet nowhere is it taught or commanded. That is because it is in the Oral tradition.

A religion based on the Torah/Bible without the Oral traditions is one that is incomplete, and therefore our proof that they are not the chosen ones.

It is written now, but it is to late for the religions which claim to be continuations of Judaism to claim the Talmud holy to them as well. Both deny its validity and therefore, both are incorrect.

Would the Oral Torah have evolved over time? Why have both a written and an oral Torah? Are both equally authoritative to the life and practice of Jews?

The Oral Torah explains the Written one. Without the Oral law it is impossible to follow the written one.

Is it also considered scripture? What is the relationship between the Oral Torah and the Talmud?

Same thing. The Mishna is the law and the Gemora explains and comments on the Mishna. TheMishna and gemora make the Talmud.

What is the difference between Oral Torah and folklore? Since I have no one to tell me the Oral Torah, how can I study it today (in English)?

You can read some of it online here:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...talmudtoc.html

But beware that many anti-semites feel they must attack the Talmud and do not understand it. Reading it without commentary is very dangerous since you may not understand the concepts very well.

The entire Talmud is in books, and is not online.

Grace Seeker

04-05-2007, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by lavikor201

A religion based on the Torah/Bible without the Oral traditions is one that is incomplete....

...claim the Talmud holy...

What is the relationship between the Oral Torah and the Talmud?

Same thing. The Mishna is the law and the Gemora explains and comments on the Mishna. TheMishna and gemora make the Talmud.

What I understood from what you wrote is
1) the Oral Torah and the Talmud are one and the same thing.
2) one does not have the complete Torah without also having the Oral Torah (also known as the Talmud).
3) the Talmud is of equal authority as the Written Torah and is considered to be holy scripture by Jews.
4) some divisions of the Talmud are into the Mishna and the Gemora.
5) there are other commentaries beyond the Gemora that are not considered holy scripture, but that are needed to properly understand the Torah.

Please correct me on any mis-statements I may have made.

Skywalker

04-05-2007, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by Phil

omniscience and free will are imcompatible

I beg to differ. We had a brief discussion about this in another thread. How does God knowing about the future hinder you from making a choice? How does God's predetermination of everything prevent you from making a choice? Yes, your choices are known to God, but they are not known to you. Therefore you have the free will to make choices, but it's your intention behind those choices that determine your fate in the hereafter.

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lavikor201

04-05-2007, 06:00 PM

All about intent. Intent on what you will do is huge in free will. Not only that, but G-d knows everyway you could have done everything therefore G-d knows and you have free will.

By the way Skywalker, I posted this seperate the sole purpose being because your post did not deserve to be in the same post as the responses to Mr. I hate G-d. It would have been a shame on your amazing ability to reason and understand.

It's not just the foreknowledge but also god's authorship of the person, that makes it illogical. Now you can say that god gives you freewill when he makes you, the problem is god also had the choice to make you differently given his perfect knowledge, but he didn't.

So? He didn't for a reason. Everything has a purpose.

King David

04-05-2007, 06:03 PM

Lavikor I need your help:

Can you give me the ways/laws we used to prostrate ourself in the days of the temple?

I had a good article on it but I cant find it maybe you do

Toda raba

lavikor201

04-05-2007, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by King David

Lavikor I need your help:

Can you give me the ways/laws we used to prostrate ourself in the days of the temple?

I had a good article on it but I cant find it maybe you do

Toda raba

I'm sorry but I am not really sure on it. I can ask someone if you want to know. It may take a day or so.

King David

04-05-2007, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by lavikor201

I'm sorry but I am not really sure on it. I can ask someone if you want to know. It may take a day or so.

I really nead it thank you for your help

lavikor201

04-05-2007, 06:26 PM

Okay.

King David

04-05-2007, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by lavikor201

I'm sorry but I am not really sure on it. I can ask someone if you want to know. It may take a day or so.

I really nead it thank you for your help

Abu Zakariya

04-05-2007, 07:15 PM

I remember reading here that Jews reject the notion that there will be a second coming of the Messiah. But I just found out that there are some Orthodox Jews that believe that the Messiah lived, died and will return. It's called Chabad Messianism. I haven't read the full Wikipedia entry, but I'd like to hear about your perspective on this.

Abu Zakariya

04-05-2007, 07:27 PM

I also found that there has been an attempt to revive the institution of Sanhedrin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_..._the_Sanhedrin

Do the Jews on this forum accept this as true Sanhedrin? Here are examples of what they have done so far:

This visit culminated in a declaration that the "Jewish people should begin collecting supplies for the rebuilding of the Temple".

For Passover 2007, they led a drive to offer the passover sacrifice on the Temple Mount.

Their annual public conference in 2007 included calls for the public to support a government based on Jewish Law. (Shouldn't Israel, according to Jewish law, remain secular so as not to become a Jewish state?)

They blew the shofar on Rosh Hashanah in September 2006, which fell on a Shabbat. This was essentially a claim to the rights and authority of a true Sanhedrin

lavikor201

04-05-2007, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by Abu Zakariya

They are considered traitors, and about every Orthodox Rabbi lables them as crazy psyco's.

People like Sabbatai Tzvei were also Jews and followed Torah, but are complete apostates.

I love Rav Shach:

When once asked which religion was theologically closest to Judaism, Shach responded "Chabad".

Howver I must remind you that majoirty of Chabad does not follow this crazy messianism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliezer_Schach

Very few if any think they are valid.

But Israel, should not by any means remain secular. What Israel should not do is regain the traditions that the Moshaich is suppose to bring because this is rebeling against G-d and not trusting in Hashem and trying to do it ourselves.

Some fear that if certain Rabbi's who believe humanity brings Moshiach get in power they will start Temple Mount craze, which the majority of Rabbi's say is completly bad.

I say, Israel should not be secular, but Rabbi's who will try further the Moshiach should be banned from being in power. But of course they have opinions to, and we have "freedom of speech" we must follow.

Rabbi Avraham Yeshayah Karelitz, (the Chazon Ish) quotes the Radvaz that no one is fit to renew the Sanhedrin. He concluded that any discussion of the topic in this "orphaned generation" is ludicrous.

Chazon Ish: Choshen Mishpat Likutim 1

rebelishaulman

04-05-2007, 07:55 PM

Well lavikor201, we have the same views on somethings, but on zionism, we have very different views.

First Chabad Messianism. Followers of the Chasidic group "Chabad" who believe Menachem Mendel Shneerson who has died, are not only apostates, but have formed their own religion. The majority of Chabad followers do not follow this insane ideology but those who do, should and are not allowed in Orthodox shuls outside their own camp. Many opinions say we may not drink their wine because if they touch it, then it is not Kosher.

Second The "New" Sanhedrin. The Orthodox community does not recongnize nor does the Orthodox community believe them to be even close to valid. The fact that they: "They blew the shofar on Rosh Hashanah in September 2006, which fell on a Shabbat. This was essentially a claim to the rights and authority of a true Sanhedrin." is a desecration of Shabbat.

Third is Zionism. I do not know what camp of view you hold lavikor201, but Zionism and the creation of a Jewish state by secular or non-secular means was forbiden. However, we are told that if we commit a forbiden act that we only must undo the act, if it follows Jewish law in doing so. Secular Jews who do not follow the Torah created the state of Israel, and now since it has been done, we must follow what Jewish law says on the matter. Jewish law says that we may break any law of the Torah to save our lives but three laws. We may not kill someone to save our life, rape someone to save our life, or worship an idol/disbelieve to save our life. Jewish law also says that Jewish life must be taken into account. If we disbanded the state of Israel, many Jews would die from Arab attacks because the arabs have become blood thristy because of zionism, therefore it is against Jewish law to disband the state of Israel. The crazy people that march with terrorists because they believe Jews should not have a state should be put into excommunication because they march with people who hate Jews, and have Jewish blood on their hands.

Read this post for more:

http://www.islamicboard.com/679487-post1.html

Abu Zakariya

04-05-2007, 08:16 PM

Would you consider this guy to be an apostate or just a sinful Jew (since he believes that Schneerson was God):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_Baranes

rebelishaulman

04-05-2007, 08:39 PM

Natural means? Do you think the people of Sodom died by natural means? Do you think God was sane when he decided to destroy all life via a flood when Noah was 600? Even the Torah refutes your claim:

"The terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them." 35:5

People dying naturally, and people being killed intentionally by God (Leviticus 14:34), are two different notions. The later implies God is genocidal.

G-d created you so is he not allowed to take you away if you disobey him? But your looking at life through a very narrow lense. Since you do not believe in an afterlife, you look at someone who dies as the worst punishment possible. I believe that not following the Torah is a worse fate then death and following the Torah. If your going to quote from Jewish scripture then you have to respect that you must quote and interprit according to our beliefs, if you wish to use our own scriptures to justify your arguments.

Say if I make a new invention and say that you can use it for as long as I wish you can. I then one day decide to take it away. Am I not allowed to do that? The people that died brought it upon themselves by raping, killing, sacrificing children and even more disgusting things. Therefore, they would not be even in existance if G-d di not create them and there choices that they were granted as a part of free will were the wrong choices for them to make.

You then view death as some kind of a difference with G-d's involvement. When G-d creates a plague and it kills, and a man dies from a heart attack, or earthquake, or old age. They died because G-d decided there time was up. They could be great people, and now when they get to heaven will be saying "Thank G-d I am out of earth!"

But I kind of laughed because I think you completly misunderstood the post you quoted.

He wrote: And if G-d did not "destroy" those nations, but rather caused its members to expire by "natureal" means - that would be acceptable to these people?

So he never claimed that G-d killed them by natural means.

If this is the case then why do Jews claimed that the state of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy?

It is not. Christians do however.

That made no sense at all. A gentile is a gentile, and there are no degrees of gentility. You also assume that the Holocaust was exclusively for Jews. What did the blacks, gays, and disabled do wrong to meet the same fate? Also, your God seems rather egotistical, for He killed millions of Jews for not worshipping Him properly.

They did nothing wrong. The Jews began rebeling against the Torah so therefore, G-d di not kill the six million Jews, he just did not protect them any longer. These Jews are in heaven now, and some say they were reincarnated and they needed to learn one last lesson dealing with the evil impulse. Hitler is still accountable for his crimes because he used free will.

Do you believe Hashem is omniscient? Yes or no? If you say yes, then you admit that every event is FIXED and there is nothing you can do to change it.

Let's say you have a time machine and you go into the future and observe people's actions.

Would anybody say that because you peeked into the future actions of those people they no longer have free will?

<FONT color=black>

This entire portion of your post reeks of delusion. Not only is the Torah’s story of the creation of the universe scientifically regressive, it is also nonsensical. Is God this egotistical to make a book to justify why we should worship Him?

You don't need to worship him. Just be righteous which the seven laws of Noah dictates. G-d di not speak before your ancestors, and your ancestors did not accept G-d so hashem does not expect you to follow the Torah. It was not written for you, and the Talmud says gentiles should not study Torah because you cannot understand it without the oral law.

rebelishaulman

04-05-2007, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by Abu Zakariya

Would you consider this guy to be an apostate or just a sinful Jew (since he believes that Schneerson was God):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_Baranes

OH YES! BIG APOSTATE!

rebelishaulman

04-05-2007, 08:46 PM

Attention:

Discussion on G-d and his actions in the Torah will no longer take place in this thread. The accusations of atheists who do not understand the first thing of the Torah nor the philosophy of Judaism are to much to bear. To explain every concept to these people will take forever, and I should nor do I need to justify G-d's actions.

Therefore, questions about Judaism may continue to but arguments with little children that try to tell me how G-d works and how free will works when they are unbelievers will not persist. I do not have the patience to deal with such people.

Study of Torah is a lot more productive then explaining G-d to a human who cannot get a grip that he is so tiny in this whole universe that the fact that he doesn't understand is suppose to happen.

Abu Zakariya

04-05-2007, 08:48 PM

These Jews are in heaven now, and some say they were reincarnated and they needed to learn one last lesson dealing with the evil impulse

Do you believe in reincarnation? If so, please share more information about this concept. Do the reincarnated Jews know that they lived earlier for instance (since it was a lesson for them)?

lavikor201

04-05-2007, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by Abu Zakariya

Do you believe in reincarnation? If so, please share more information about this concept. Do the reincarnated Jews know that they lived earlier for instance (since it was a lesson for them)?

There are many Jewish sources dealing with what is popularly called "reincarnation." In Hebrew, it is called "gilgul ha'ne'shamot," literally the recycling or transmigration of souls.
This concept can be compared to a flame of one candle lighting another candle. While the essence of the second flame comes from the first one, the second flame is an independent entity.
Still, the new flame contains imperfections inherited from the initial flame, and it is these imperfections that are to be corrected.

Most of the written material is very esoteric, often written in Aramaic. Some of the prominent works dealing with this subject are the "Zohar" (1st century) and the Arizal's "Shaar HaGilgulim" (16th century). In the Bible itself, the idea is intimated in Deut. 25:5-10.

Many sources say that a soul has a maximum of three chances in this world. One example given is that the great Talmudic sage Hillel was a reincarnation of the Biblical figure Aaron.
The soul only comes into this world in the first place in order to make a spiritual repair. If that is not fulfilled by the end of one's lifetime, then the soul will be sent down once again. The return trip may only be needed for a short time or in a limited way. This in part explains why people are born with handicaps or may live a brief life.

It is not necessary that there be a conscious awareness in order for the correction to take place. Conscious awareness is only one level of understanding.

This idea is explored in an interesting book called "Psychic Phenomena," by Dorothy Bemar Bradley, M.D., and Robert A. Bradley M.D.:

"Mentally retarded children have been known to burst out with unexpected abilities under altered awareness, manifesting the contents of the undamaged and theoretically undamageable unconscious mind."

In other words, there are levels of understanding that transcend the conscious level, even in children.
Re: your second question. Why does this have to involve the body in the first place?
Truly, some "corrections" do not have to take place through the body, but rather take place in the soul world, in the afterlife.

However, sometimes the correction must occur in the physical world. For example, it may involve a certain challenge of choosing the "right thing" over choosing the "comfortable thing." Or other people may have to be involved. And the soul cannot interact with the physical world in any other way expect through a body.

The bottom line in all this is that a person's life situation provides everything necessary to achieve ideal growth. Our task is simply to employ our free will -- i.e. to properly and effectively use the opportunities that we have.
All the best to you in this and future lives.

http://www.aish.com/rabbi/ATR_browse...=tqak&offset=1

lavikor201

04-05-2007, 09:22 PM

On another note:

There are such complicated works on G-d and what happneds for what reason that if you do not study these things then you may really just think that G-d is a very evil thing because you judge G-d's actions without understanding of the world, Judaism and other things.

Someone who falls into this trap we should all view as innocent and hope that one day he leaves the clutches of the evil impulse which has a job basically to push you further from G-d, but it is employed by G-d to see the response.

Someone who views death as worse then not following the Torah will never understand the Torah because they will never understand Judaism in general.

lavikor201

04-05-2007, 10:47 PM

1. The Oral Torah is the Mishna. The Gemora are explanations by the great sages of our time. For ever word of the mishna debates between the Rabbi's and explanations of how to 100% follow it are written.

2. Correct.

3. Correct.

4. The Mishna is the Law, Gemora explains the law by analyzing every senetence.

5. Sages then comment on the gemoras analysis.

snakelegs

04-06-2007, 06:18 AM

Originally Posted by rebelishaulman

Third is Zionism. I do not know what camp of view you hold lavikor201, but Zionism and the creation of a Jewish state by secular or non-secular means was forbiden. However, we are told that if we commit a forbiden act that we only must undo the act, if it follows Jewish law in doing so. Secular Jews who do not follow the Torah created the state of Israel, and now since it has been done, we must follow what Jewish law says on the matter. Jewish law says that we may break any law of the Torah to save our lives but three laws. We may not kill someone to save our life, rape someone to save our life, or worship an idol/disbelieve to save our life. Jewish law also says that Jewish life must be taken into account. If we disbanded the state of Israel, many Jews would die from Arab attacks because the arabs have become blood thristy because of zionism, therefore it is against Jewish law to disband the state of Israel. The crazy people that march with terrorists because they believe Jews should not have a state should be put into excommunication because they march with people who hate Jews, and have Jewish blood on their hands.

Read this post for more:

http://www.islamicboard.com/679487-post1.html

what you wrote above makes sense to me, but my question is - would this include an obligation not to criticize the state of israel? is it prohibited for example, to speak out against a specific israeli policy toward the palestinians? (for example settlements, road blocks, etc.)

Skywalker

04-06-2007, 07:47 AM

What I'm really curious about is what the Jewish members of this forum think would be the best solution for the Israel/Palestine problem (and I hope you do see it as a problem). I know you don't want to talk about it in this thread, so you can post your views in this thread that I made a while ago. Forget what we were talking about there, just start from scratch.

north_malaysian

04-06-2007, 07:52 AM

I think we should give an award to lavikor201 for creating the most popular thread in this forum:

For less than a year (18.05.2006 - 06.04.2007)

* 14,545 views
* 1,538 replies
* 103 pages

A very good example that the Jews can live in a Muslim environment...

:thumbs_up :okay:

Skywalker

04-06-2007, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by north_malaysian

Definetely! Take some rep, man!!

:thumbs_up :thumbs_up

Philosopher

04-06-2007, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by north_malaysian

That is only because the Muslims in this board are rather educated and tolerant. The same cannot be said about ordinary Muslims in the ME.

lavikor201

04-06-2007, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by snakelegs

I cannot answer for him, but I would assume that it would be okay, but if your criticism goes so far to get one angry which could risk a Jewish life, or any life for that matter, then you should not.

However, I completly disagree with his theory on Zionism and we obviously have different hashkafah (views) and interpretations on different things. A Jewish state in my mind is a theological state that has sacrifices etc. Todays state is not a "Jewish state" because sacrifices are not existent, and because it is a western democracy that promotes no Jewish values. His views are obviously very different.

Originally Posted by Skywalker

Hopefully a two state solution Palestinian state in Gaza and West Bank, with Islamic rule over the Temple Mount and we rule the Western Wall, and Israeli control is in Jerusalem, but Palestinians may go there no problem as long as attacks do no occur and every site holy to Islam is given completle Islamic control.

lavikor201

04-06-2007, 02:15 PM

rebelishaulman, how much do you place on our tradition today?

rebelishaulman

04-06-2007, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by lavikor201

rebelishaulman, how much do you place on our tradition today?

Today the only men who can recognize the truth are those that have it by tradition.

lavikor201

04-06-2007, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by rebelishaulman

Today the only men who can recognize the truth are those that have it by tradition.

But men may not to rely on a tradition. They may claim that they only accept what they have seen with their eyes.

rebelishaulman

04-06-2007, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by lavikor201

But men may not to rely on a tradition. They may claim that they only accept what they have seen with their eyes.

Do you believe the man George Washington (founder of America) existed? Of course you do, but how do you know he ever existed? Did you see him? No of course you did not, but you are probably thinking now that all men rely on some form of tradition to understand history and this is true. George Washington you would say is a tradition accepted by all men, but I would disagree! By no means do the masses in Africa, India, the Near East, Chine, Japan even know his name! The vast majority of mankind have never heard of him.

Now, you would say "But thousands of his countrymen knew him". But have you ever spoken to any of them? No, but it is widely known ad is accepted as truth. Now how do you know he was widely known in his life time? "By recorded history, word of mouth, and one generation to the next."

The our recorded history the Tanakh is much more widespread in the world than American recorded history; and word of mouth history of our people is much more widespread then American word-of mouth history. American history admits that George Washington was only seen by thousands; while Jewish history insists that millions saw our Torah given at Mt. Sinai and all generations testified to the historical traditons which they heard from their own fathers, not to mention the vast millions of Christians and Mohamadens believe today in this historical fact. There is not a historical tradition in the world today, including the latest events of our time which is as strongly authenticated by written and public record and opinion based on tradition lavikor. The majority of the American people have not recieved the tradition of George Washington from there fathers because they are Irish, Italian, German, or Slavic immigrants who settled in America long after Washington was gone. But the Jewish nation are the descendants of the men who saw the ten plagues and were liberated from slavery in Egypt. If you were not Jewish then your not expected to believe or follow the Torah since G-d did not divinly reveal it to you. These people passed on what they saw at Sinia and the red sea generation to generation.

Over two centuries before the second destruction of our Holy Temple our scriptures were translated into greek lavikor, and this is important. From then on the gentiles have had our scriptures to testify to our text. This happned only six centuries after King Soloman. In addition the works of Josephus have been the gentiles hands for 2,000 years. But of all it is clear that the fact that our nation, as far back as any historical record goes back, unaminously procliamed the authority and authenticity of the scriptures. Rabbi Avigdor Miller wrote.

lavikor201

04-06-2007, 02:58 PM

So then the Muslims and Christians rely on our tradition so how can you say they are wrong?

rebelishaulman

04-06-2007, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by lavikor201

So then the Muslims and Christians rely on our tradition so how can you say they are wrong?

Lavikor, I am spending a lot of time typing these answers, so you better not skim through them all.

It is quite obvious. But first, I hope insult no one by writing this because we do not wish for you to convert to Judaism but instead follow the seven laws. But first the Christians and Muslims can claim only half of our tradition which proves them false. They both do not recongnize the Oral Torah, and the written Torah is nothing without the Oral Torah to go along with it. The Christians belief that there is no Oral Torah makes it so they cannot follow the written one. The written Torah makes no sense, and may convey the compeltly opposite message it intends to, when someone reads it without the Oral law. That is the reason they are false.

The Nazarene's followers clearly state that all the sages of the jews opposed them. Not even a single sage supported them. Even among the Jewish lower class did the majority not support the Nazarene's. The Nazarene's claim to prophecy is based on his own words; but none of the sages or their great assemblies which were at a very high state supported him. The writings of the Nazarene state that the sages rebuked him and his followers for violating the law of the Torah. The writing claim he is of the seed of David, but at the same time that he has no father. Even the most ignorant of our people know that the lineage which is not through the father is never considered in Biblical genealogy. In addition, he claimed that he did not intend to change the law of Moses, yet he himself abrogated some laws and his followers abrogated all of them. In addition he claims to be the Messiah whose function as foretold by the Bible is to redeem Israel; but we saw the opposite of this redemption after his death; for the Messiah is clearly foretold by the prophets to appear and rule Israel in person. In additions the scriptures foretell (Isaiah 45, Zefania 3) that all the nations shall be united in true faith at the advent of the Messiah; but after the Nazarene nothing of that kind transpired. On the contrary Islam developed and spread over many nations and Christianity broke up into many sects which continue to slaughter eachother in such places as Northern Ireland.

The contradictions that the "New Testament" has with the Torah are numerous. I will not name them all because to tell you the truth, I do not wish to attack Christian scripture if they follow the seven laws.

The Mohammadans and Nazranes have upheld the truth of our prophetic books for 1300 years and they admit that they were true if not still today. Yet both admit that our sages opposed them. By this admission they prove their error. How so? Because the Torah says in Devarim 17: "When a matter of judgement is concealed from you, you shall go up to the place which G-d shall choose and you shall come to the Coheniem and Levites and to the judges who shall be in those days; and you shall inquire and they shall tell you. And you shall do according to the word that they tell you; and you shall not turn aside from the word which they tell you; to the right or to the left." If the followers of Mohamad and the Christians admit that all our sages opposed them, then they therefore admit the Jews are right in obeying the sages because G-d influences the sages.

Now of course these judges were not around in Mohamads time, so therefore, how can we say Mohamad was wrong? Well the Quran calls Jesus a prophet, which therefore, makes them oppose the descion of the sages that rejected Jesus and therefore they go against the Torah's command as well.

But either way, the spread of Christianity and Islam are great things among the gentiles because they follow our G-d! Therefore, I encourage all Muslims to continue to practice there faith and Christians to follow the seven laws! I also beg all Hindu's and Buddhists to convert to one of these religions Islam being the much more monotheistic one, so they should try Islam, if they can even better just follow the seven laws and become righteous gentiles/noahides.

The Jews accpted the Torah though because they heard the voice of G-d tell them to. Not because a few miracles Moses performed. Miracles can be performed by evil as well to trick us. Non-Jews are not expected to follow Torah because it is only logical that the people who should follow it are people who G-d proved to it is real, and there descendants. Unlike man made religions the Torah was not preached by individuals who afterward suceeded in persuading or coercing the multidutes, but instead from the first day our Torah was accepted by millions.

Our Torah says that it is eternal and that any one who claims to write a new book or claims that we should no longer follow Torah then they are obviously false.

If a religion claims the Torah is theres, but that the Oral Torah is not, then they are obviously because what they follow is an incomplete work that may convey the exact opposite of its message without its counterpart.

lavikor201

04-06-2007, 03:27 PM

I understand what you are saying, but since only Israel witnessed the Torah and most of the wonders how can other nations even be expected to accept this truth?

rebelishaulman

04-06-2007, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by lavikor201

I understand what you are saying, but since only Israel witnessed the Torah and most of the wonders how can other nations even be expected to accept this truth?

The scriptures lavikor, only call on Israel who witnessed G-d's deeds to follow and keep his laws. No other nation is threatened or blamed for not accepting the Torah/Law; they are not obligated to, for they did not witness the miracles which prove the truth of the Torah/Law. Moses did not demand that the children of Israel should believe in him, for none of them ever disputed the truth of the law, which they had witnessed together with him. But the books of Islam and Christianity vehemently curse everyone in the world who disbelieves them although they did not demonstrate their proofs to the whole world.

lavikor201

04-06-2007, 03:33 PM

Wow! It makes a lot of sense. I will e-mail you to ask more. Althugh I am a Jew and I believe I know a lot, I really know nothing compared to those that study as there job all day. :p

Philosopher

04-06-2007, 07:11 PM

Uh-oh.

Do I sense a Jew vs Jew debate in an Islamic forum??? :D

Skywalker

04-06-2007, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by Phil

That is only because the Muslims in this board are rather educated and tolerant. The same cannot be said about ordinary Muslims in the ME.

Hey watch it! I'm an ordinary Muslim and I'm the ME and I'm finding this thread quite interesting.

But yeah, I agree that a lot of the less-educated people around the globe have a lot less tolerance for things they don't know much about.

thirdwatch512

04-06-2007, 08:12 PM

here's a question.. why is it sort of hard for someone to convert to judaism?

anyways, but here's just a general comment - i love judaism lol. and i love the torah. i have NEVER seen a book so rich in meaning in my life. like if someone read through the tanakh at first glance, they wouldn't even get 10% of the meaning of it! it's so intense in meaning, it's awesome.. lol. just a general comment.

as for jews and their treament on this forum.. well, i've always liked this forum, because it seems to be a more liberal islamic forum. like i have been on muslim forums where jews were constantly being harassed, and the admins did nothing about it. they also were encouraging death to homosexuals, and to christians, and this and that. But, thankfully this forum is more open minded!

lavikor201

04-06-2007, 08:32 PM

here's a question.. why is it sort of hard for someone to convert to judaism?

Because Judaism and following the Torah are only required of the people who actually saw the miracles and their wonders when G-d gave us the Torah, or if someone in your family converted then that family becomes responsible for following Torah.

A good point made a few posts ago:

The scriptures lavikor, only call on Israel who witnessed G-d's deeds to follow and keep his laws. No other nation is threatened or blamed for not accepting the Torah/Law; they are not obligated to, for they did not witness the miracles which prove the truth of the Torah/Law. Moses did not demand that the children of Israel should believe in him, for none of them ever disputed the truth of the law, which they had witnessed together with him. But the books of Islam and Christianity vehemently curse everyone in the world who disbelieves them although they did not demonstrate their proofs to the whole world.

I agree with the statement that the only people who should be responsible for following Torah are Jews since G-d showed the proofs and wonders to the Jewish people and commanded them to pass it down from generation to generation (hebrew: ledor vador). Other books that claim the whole world must follow them although G-d di not show any proof to the whole world, only to the one guy who claims that you should believe him. Yes, that one guy may perform a few miracles, but the Torah says false prophets can perform miracles. The real proof is G-d at Mt. Sinai spoke and all the Jewish people heard G-d. We cannot even comprehend how he sounded or if any noise even occured but all just heard it in there head, but we know they heard G-d. Christianity and Islam both support that last statement, and if G-d wishes to create a religion, would he tell all about it, or would be tell one guy and expect the whole world to believe him.

Judaism's restrictions on conversion are for the gentiles own benefit if they do not practice Judaism after they convert. So a dedicated person, is what you must be. Orthodox conversions are the only ones recongnized. But anyway, you can convert if you want, but it will take studying and dedication on the part of the potential convert.

Skywalker

04-06-2007, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by thirdwatch

i have been on muslim forums where jews were constantly being harassed, and the admins did nothing about it. they also were encouraging death to homosexuals, and to christians, and this and that.

That's sad to hear. Death to Christians? That's insane. I've been on this forum for a little while now, and although the people here might seem more "liberal", I see them as better educated, and through this education they look at things more tolerably and hopefully more Islamically.

strider

04-06-2007, 08:33 PM

lavikor201,

Is it true that orthodox Jewish women shave their heads?

north_malaysian

04-07-2007, 02:09 AM

Originally Posted by strider

lavikor201,

Is it true that orthodox Jewish women shave their heads?

Huhh?????

I think they couldnt answer your question as they're observing Sabbath.

north_malaysian

04-07-2007, 02:12 AM

Originally Posted by Philosopher

That is only because the Muslims in this board are rather educated and tolerant. The same cannot be said about ordinary Muslims in the ME.

Yeah... it's kinda sad.... not only in the ME but the whole world.....

I've learnt alot about Judaism in this forum. The best thing of it .. it the Jews teaching us to understand their religion.... in a Muslim forum.

I cant get this kind of education in Malaysia.....

For all Jews people here .... "Toda"

P/S: Lavikor201, how about your Hebrew thread? You should revive it back..... I want to learn Hebrew phrases...

moujahid

04-07-2007, 03:51 AM

Lavikor,

InshaAllah it is time for you to say the Shahada and enter into Islam. I invite you to bring true faith in Allah. Enough of fooling around brother.
Islam is the only way to Paradise man. Moses, peace be upon him, was a true believer and so are Muslims. He belongs to us more than the yahood.

Laa ilaaha illAllah Muhammadan RasoolAllah

Skywalker

04-07-2007, 07:38 AM

Brother moujahid, I think lavikor has spent enough time on this forum to know that he and all others always have an open invitation to become Muslims and don't need to be reminded.

I think that telling him that "it's time to say the Shahada" is not the most attractive way of giving da3wah, if that was your intent. Personally, that would have the exact opposite effect on me.

Also, lavikor's participation in this forum, from what I've seen thus far, can hardly be called "fooling around". By creating this thread and participating in many others, he has provided us Muslims with a lot of knowledge about Judaism that we couldn't hope to get anywhere else, while he is, hopefully, attaining the same amount of knowledge for himself about Islam. This is how you achieve tolerance and peace. [quick thread promo]I also hope to see this kind of participation in the solution to Israel thread, which could also be a small but very positive step in achieving peace on a larger scale.[/quick thread promo]

I admire your will to spread Islam, but in my opinion there are better ways of giving da3wah. Just as he presents his religion truthfully here, you present ours truthfully here and in other places as well. Also try to be the best Muslim you can be, let people see you for what you are, let them admire you for your religion, and then if Allah guides them, let them come to you to ask you about Islam. Allah knows best anyway.

:w:

snakelegs

04-07-2007, 08:46 AM

excellent post, skywalker!

lavikor201

04-08-2007, 05:15 AM

Originally Posted by strider

lavikor201,

Is it true that orthodox Jewish women shave their heads?

They cover their hair - not shave. However, there are some minor sects where some women will shave their hair before there wedding, and I am not sure the exact details about this custom, nor is it very wide spread at all.

Well I doubt I am fooling around at all. My diatary restrictions among many others are actually more stringent than yours in Islam. I also object to you saying that Moshe Rabeinu belongs to you more than the Jewish people, since Islam admits that Moses was part of the children of Israel and therefore is a genetic member of our people, and also, we deny that the Torah is anything but G-d's word, and we say that Mohammad was not a prophet, therefore, we believe that Judaism before your arrogant claim that our great sages corrupted it, which is impossible under my belief, was absolutly nothing like Islam and if Moses was here right now, he would be asking "Do you observe the Sabbath like I did?", "Do you seperate all meat and milk like I did?", "Did you lay tefillin like I did." and you would respond... No, I assume. And before you say this was all made up from our "corrupted" scriptures, I would look into what the Quran says about the Sabbath and what happned to Jews who did not follow it (yet I am not sure if it is refering to those jews or jews in general) but either way, since men were turned into apes for breaking Shabbat, why do you Muslims not follow it?

I might also say that I do not fool around with my beard either. :p

lavikor201

04-08-2007, 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by Philosopher

Are Jewish women allowed to date and engage in premarital sex before marriage?

As you may know, statistics shows that 95% of Americans engage in premarital sex.

No. According to Jewish law, Jewish women may not have pre-marital sex.

Shidduch (or shiduch) (Hebrew: שידוך, pl. shid[d]uchim שידוכים) means a "[a] match" between a man and a woman, as well as the system of introducing eligible and marriageable singles to each other in Orthodox Jewish communities.

The process of shidduchim is the subject of some criticism, mainly for being "unromantic" and too closely resembling the practice of arranged marriages. However, this is not really the case as there is no requirement in the Shidduch process to marry the person being dated. It is simply an arranged date (a process which can go on in very orthodox communities a few weeks to more modern orthodox communities which last a month or more), through which romance can blossom, and most certainly not an arranged marriage. It should be noted that those using this matchmaking process, have a far lower divorce rate than the US standard. The numbers given are under 6%. (I think the US is at 50% right now.) :p

Skywalker

04-08-2007, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by lavikor

C'mon guys, let's stop with the "my religion is better than yours" talk because we all know from experience where that leads to, and can quickly ruin a perfectly decent thread.

On a side note, lavikor could you give us a little more insight on why you think Muslims should observe the Sabbath, possibly with scriptual references?

Originally Posted by Phil

As you may know, statistics shows that 95% of Americans engage in premarital sex.

Whoa!! That's a huge number, homie. Where did u find that?? If that's accurate (which I highly doubt it is), it's then plainly evident why Americans can't stand the thought of Sharia society. Phil, please give me your source for that.

Originally Posted by lavikor

No. According to Jewish law, Jewish women may not have pre-marital sex.

I think this is the main obstacle preventing secular society from accepting living under Sharia or Torah law. Lavikor, from your experience, do you think the majority of Israelis would accept living under strict Torah law if it was implemented in Israel, because the feeling I get from what people are saying about this is that the vast majority of Israelis are secular while only a few stick to actual Jewish values.

lavikor201

04-08-2007, 02:12 PM

On a side note, lavikor could you give us a little more insight on why you think Muslims should observe the Sabbath, possibly with scriptual references?

Oh they should not. The Sabbath is a Jewish privledge that a non-Jew may not follow until he converts. I was making a point that Moses followed all these things, yet Muslims do not, so why is Mses closer to Islam than Judaism as he suggests?

I believe Islam is a valid religion of the seven laws however.

Well it is about 70% secular - 30% Traditional however, the traditional are averaging 5-7 babies a family and the secular 1-2 babies, so how long with this last?

Woodrow

04-08-2007, 02:13 PM

Please keep this thread on topic. the purpose of this thread is not to debate, but to provide answers to questions any of us may have.

Please do not use this thread for debates make a new thread to debate what you disagree with.

Hemoo

04-08-2007, 03:47 PM

i just wanted to mention that muslims do agree that

all the first jews which followed the message of prophet moses (peace be upon him), those jews was a real muslims because they obeyed Allah and his messenger .that is what islam means ,it means to surrender to the commands of your creator.

but we can't say the same thing about the current jews nor the current christians, simply because they don't obey Allah commands and they don't believe in the last messenger that Allah has sent.

and as lavikor said "I do not fool around with my beard either"

me too , i have a beard and i don't cut anything from it and i know that this is what all the prophets used to do.

lavikor201

04-08-2007, 05:08 PM

"A gentile who fulfills his laws is like a [Jewish] high priest."
(Midrash Sifra, Acharei Mot 9:13)

King David

04-08-2007, 08:04 PM

Lavikor do you havethe answere to my question?

Abu Zakariya

04-08-2007, 08:46 PM

lavikor

We don't observe Shabbat because it isn't part of the Shari'ah of the Ummah of Muhammad (sall Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam). And the specific Jews that didn't follows the Shabbat rules (which was part of their Shari'ah) were turned into apes and pigs. Not Jews in general, obviously.

King David

04-08-2007, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by Abu Zakariya

So would this mean that the Jews still have to have different laws than The Gentiles. Would this mean that A Jew Is a Muslim(Submitter). Could it be that the Quran is the Nohadite(Gentile that submits) book of Law? Given through the Ishmaelites to spread those rules through the world. Could it be that you got this because we werent doing it and that is why we were send to exile? But could it be that today we are willing to explain you those laws if you would only ask? Could it be that you arent interpretiing the Qur'an in the proper way because today you reject the Tanach(Torah Prophets Scriptures? That it is just like watching the last movie of a sequel?

"We sent not any before thee except men to whom we revealed: Question the People of the Remembrance [Children fo Israel], if it should be that you do not know -- with the clear signs, and the Psalms, and We have sent down to thee Remembrance [Qur'an] that thou [Muslims] mayest make clear to mankind what was sent down to them [Israelites]" [Qur'an, "The Bee", chapter 16:45].

"The Qur'an could not have been forged apart from G-d, but it is a confirmation of what was before it, and a distinguishing of the Book [Tanach] wherein is no doubt, from the Lord of all Being" (Qur'an, "Jonah", chapter 10:38. Also see "The Table", chapter 5:52; "Sand Dunes", chapter 46:11 "The Cow", chapter 2:172. Additional Qur'anic acceptance of the Tanach is given in "Night Journey", chapter 17:3; "Prostration", chapter 32:23; "The Believer", chapter 23:56. These references to "the Book" always refer to the Tanach in its original Hebrew, not to translations which are often unreliable).

"Surely, We sent down the Torah, wherein is guidance and light. Thereby, the prophets, who had surrendered themselves, gave judgment for those of Jewry, as did the masters and the rabbis, following such portions of God's Book as they were given to keep and bear witness to" [Qur'an, "The Table", chapter 5:48].
"O believers, be not of those who hurt Moses, but God declared him quit of what they said, and he was high honored with God" [Qur'an, "Confederates", chapter 33:69].

"We gave the Children of Israel the Book, the Judgment and the Prophethood, and We provided them with good things, and We preferred them above all beings" [Qur'an, "Hobbling" , chapter 45:15].

"And when Moses said to his people. `Remember G-d's blessing upon you, He...gave you such as He had not given to any other being. Oh my people, enter the Holy Land which G-d has prescribed for you...' And the angels say, 'We settled the Children of Israel in a sure settlement" [Qur'an, "The Table", chapter 5:23; "Jonah", chapter 10:93].
Israel was even meant to fight for the land:
"...They [the Children of Israel] said to a prophet of theirs [Samuel]: 'Raise up for us a king, and we will fight in G-d's way.' He said 'Might it be that, if fighting is prescribed for you, you will not fight?' They said: 'Why should we not fight in G-d's way?' Yet, when fighting was prescribed for them, they turned their backs, except for a few of them..." [Qur'an, "The Cow", chapter 2:246, 247].
"Pharoah sought to scare them out of the land [of Israel]; but We [Allah] drowned him, together with all who were with him. Then We said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the World to Come comes to pass, We shall assemble you all together" [Qur'an, "Night Journey", chapter 17:106 - which foresees the return of a "mixed multitude"].

The Qur'an forbids making a division between the prophets before or after the Exile (Qur'an, "The Cow", chapter 2:130,208, "The House of Imram", chapter 3:78), and before or after the Hegira. Furthermore, the Qur'an praises the Psalms of David, which are Songs of Zion. The Qur'an acknowledges David as God's viceroy and Judge on Earth [Qur'an, "Zad", chapter 38:16-19,25].

"We sent against you [Israel] our servants [the Romans] to discountenance you, and to enter the Temple, as they [the Babylonians] entered it the first time, and to destroy utterly what they ascended to. Perchance your Lord will have mercy upon you, but if you return [to the Land of Israel], We shall return...[to you]" [Qur'an, "Night Journey", chapter 17:8].

"There is a ban upon a city [Jerusalem] that We have destroyed. They [the Jews] shall not return [to the Land of Israel] till when Gog and Magog are unloosed, and they slide down out of every slope, and nigh has drawn the true promise, and behold, the eyes of the unbelievers staring. 'Alas for us! We were heedless of this. Nay, we are evildoers" [Qur'an, "The Prophets", chapter 21:96, 97].

Who or what prompts you to enlist in the hordes of Gog and Magog?

In this context the Qur'an warns:

"Upon this day when their faces are turned about in the fire, they shall say: 'Ah, would we had obeyed God and the messenger!' They shall say: 'Our Lord, we obeyed the chiefs and great ones, and they led us astray from the way. Our Lord, give them chastisement twofold, and curse them with a mighty curse" [ Qur'an, "The Confederates", chapter 33:66].

The next verse admonishes:

"O believers, be not as those who hurt Moses, but God declared him quit of what they said, and he was high honored with God" [Qur'an, "The Confederates", chapter 33:68].

"Dispute not with the People of the Book, save in a fairer manner, except for those of them that go wrong; and say: 'We believe in what has been sent down to us, and what has been sent down to you, our God and your God are One, and to Him we have surrendered" [Qur'an, "The Spider", chapter 29:45].

"If God had willed, he would have made you one nation, but he may try you in what has come to you. So be ye forward in good works, unto God shall you return altogether, and He will tell you of that whereon you were at variance" [Qur'an, "The Table", chapter 5:53; "The Bee", chapter 16:95].
It is from God that we follow different rituals:

"We have appointed for every nation a holy rite that they shall perform" [Qur'an, "The Pilgrimage", chapter 22:66].

The Qur'an even distinguishes between Abraham, Isaac and Jacob on the one hand, and Ishmael on the other:

"Remember also our servants Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, men of might they and of vision. Assuredly, We purified them with a quality most pure, the remembrance of the Abode, and in our sight, they are of the chosen, the excellent. Remember also our servants Ishmael, Elisha and Dhool Kifl, each is among the excellent" [Qur'an, "The Zad", chapter 38:45-48].

According to these verses, the three Patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are described as purified, chosen and excellent, while Ishmael, although being counted among the excellent, is not mentioned as chosen. The chosen-ness of the three Patriarchs has to do with the Land Covenant which the Lord of All Beings made with them [Tanach, Genesis 15:18, 17:4-8, 26:4, 35:11-12].

While every nation has its own distinctive characteristics, it is exactly this Land Covenant which molds the People of Israel into something distinctive, unique in history.

The Qur'an stresses this repeatedly:

"[Allah] gave you such as He had not given to any being. O My People [the Israelites], enter the Holy Land [Land of Israel] which God has prescribed for you..." [Qur'an, "The Table", chapter 5:24]. "Children of Israel, remember...that I have preferred you above all beings" [Qur'an, "The Cow", chapter 2:44].

Note also the distinction between the calls and levels of Abraham's son Isaac, grandson Jacob and son Ishmael:

"We gave him [Abraham] Isaac and Jacob, and each We made a prophet, and We gave them our mercy, and We appointed to them a tongue of truthfulness, sublime...And Ishmael...was true to his promise, and he was a messenger, a prophet. He bade his people to pray and to give alms, and he was pleasing to his Lord" [Qur'an, "Mary", chapter 19:50-56; "The Prophets", chapter 21:72,85].
The Qur'an does say that Abraham "was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but a Muslim of pure faith" (Qur'an, "The House of Imram", chapter 3:60). He "named you Muslim(submitted) aforetime" [Qur'an, "The Pilgrimage", chapter 22:77-78] and admonished you to "follow the creed of Abraham, a man of pure faith and no idolater" [Qur'an, "The Bee", chapter 16:124].
The expression "He named you Muslim aforetime" shows that the term "Muslim" is here applied in its etymological sense, meaning "one who submits to God", a God Fearer who followed the universal faith of Noah (Genesis 9) given to all mankind, rather than the member of a specific later religion.

It is in this sense that the Qur'an speaks of the prophets of Israel as those who have surrendered to God; i.e., as Muslims (God Fearers) [Qur'an, "The Table", chapter 5:48], despite the fact that they and the People of Israel were commanded to observe ordinances and rites different from those of the descendants of Ishmael.
An example of such differences is the Sabbath. This day of rest and sanctification is for the Children of Israel also a sign of God's covenant with them [Tanach, Exodus 31:13-17].
The Qur'an confirms this and even ridicules Jews who do not observe the Sabbath as "apes" [Qur'an, "The Cow", chapter 2:63].
"Praise the Lord, all you nations, praise him, all you people, for his grace did prevail over us, and the Lord's truth is for ever. Praise you the Lord" [Tanach, Psalm 117].
"Have you considered? If it be from God, and you disbelieve in it, and a witness from among the Children of Israel bears witness to its like, and believes, and you wax proud, God guides not the people of the evildoers" [Qur'an, "Sand Dunes", chapter 46:8-9].

ABRAHAMS' PRAYER

When told by the Lord that in spite of their high age he would get a son from Sarah, Abraham prayed [Bere****/Genesis 17:18]

"O that Ishmael might live before thee!"

Abraham loved both Ishmael and Isaac, therefore he had to be told:

"Take now thy son, thine only whom you have loved, even Isaac..." [Bere****/Genesis 22:2]. The specification "even Isaac", was to tell him which one of the two beloved sons he should bring to Mount Moriah.

Abraham did not merely pray "that Ishmael might live". He was not concerned that Ishmael would be threatened by Isaac, and would need a special prayer for the protection from the latter.

Abraham was concerned that Ishmael, biologically the firstborn, might try to bring the whole heritage unto himself, and deprive Isaac of the Divine promise.

Abraham prayed that Ishmael might live before the Lord. This prayer should encourage and guide him to let his spiritual Abrahamic inheritance get the upper hand so that he would be alive in the Divine spirit, and consequently recognize also Isaac's call.

The two brothers and their descendants should not fight over the inheritance but "compete in good works" as the Qur'an, Ishmael's guide book, says so aptly.

In the spirit of our father Abraham, let us , the Children of Ishmael and the Children of Israel, pray together:

"O that both of us -- Ishmael and Israel -- might live before Thee!"

MORE POINTS:

1. It stresses the continued validity of the "Book" - Jonah 38; Table 52; Cow 172; Believers 56; Bee 45-47; and others

2. It recognizes the teachings of the Prophets, even of the rabbis -- Table 48 (notwithstanding Repentance 30-35)
3. It recognizes the peculiarity of Israel and the unparalleled gifts to its people (including the land promise) -- Hobbling 15; Cow 60, 247

4. The Land of Israel is prescribed for the Children of Israel -- Table 23

5. Allah settled the Children of Israel in the Land of Israel -- Jonah 93

6. The Children of Israel are rebuked for not fighting for the Land of Israel -- Cow 60, 247
7. David's Kingdom (Zion) and Psalms confirmed, and he being acknowledged as Divine viceroy on earth - Zad 19,25; Cow 252 [cf Is. 28:16]

8. The Psalms and Prophets speak of Israel's return to the land and Jerusalem, and so does the Qur'an -- Bani Israel 8,105

9. Israel often harshly rebuked in the Qur'an, but there is no cancellation of the Covenant or of the Promises

10. On the contrary, the words of the Prophets shall surely be established -- Greeks 5; Hobbling 31; Believers 76

11. Abraham is called a true Muslim - Imram 60; Pilgrimage 77; Cattle 162; and so are the Prophets -- Table 48, notwithstanding their keeping Shabbat and their direction of prayer toward Jerusalem [cf. I Kings 8:30,42]

12. Abraham established a) Mount Moriah in Jerusalem for Israel -- Genesis 22:2, II Chronicles 3:1 b) The Kaaba in Mecca for Ishmael -- Cow 119, 123

13. Qiblah (direction of prayer) for Muslim to Mecca, and for Jews to Jerusalem -- Cow 140, 143 (cf. I Kings 8:29,30)

14. The Qur'an admits different religious rites, and urges all of us to compete in good works - Cow 143, Table 53, Pilgrimage 66

15. Allah wants to be honored by forgiveness and love - Table 15-17, Woman Tested 7, Counsel 14
Allah Himself is saying that Jerusalem is as important to Jews as Mecca is to Muslims.

In "The Cow" Allah says that Jews and Muslims have their own special directions of prayer (Jerusalem for Jews and Mecca for Muslims) [Qur'an, "The Cow", chapter 2:140].

"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his fellow", said King Solomon [Mishle/Proverbs 21:17].

"God is our Lord and your Lord. We have our deeds, and you have your deeds, there is no argument between us and you. God shall bring us together, and unto Him is our homecoming" [Qur'an, "The Counsel", chapter 42:14].

"I believe that there is no God but He in whom the Children of Israel believe. I am of those that surrender" [Qur'an, "Jonah" chapter 10-90].

Abu Zakariya

04-08-2007, 10:14 PM

KingDavid

The answer to your questions: no.

lavikor201

04-09-2007, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by Abu Zakariya

KingDavid

The answer to your questions: no.

So why would G-d change the law of keeping the Sabbath that he told the Jews would be "eternal" for them? Or do you accuse our great sages of "changing" that part to, so all the Jews would really think that the laws were eternal when they really weren't? ^o)

Lavikor do you havethe answere to my question?

Be patient, I am trying. :sunny:

Philosopher

04-09-2007, 01:21 AM

Originally Posted by King David

Interesting. Where did you get this information from?

north_malaysian

04-09-2007, 03:09 AM

Originally Posted by Skywalker

Good one!!! :thumbs_up

ManchesterFolk

04-09-2007, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by rebelishaulman

Very interesting. It actually makes sense what you say, and you should take that as a compliment coming from an Agnostic.

Skywalker

04-09-2007, 12:15 PM

It made sense to me at first, but then when you think about it, it's like...that's just too easy.

I mean you don't need to see God perform a miracle firsthand in order to believe in Him. That what faith is all about. I think that scriptural guidance and a person's own logic are enough proof for them to come to the realization that God exists, that we exist because of Him, and that we should show gratitude for our existence by being good people.

ManchesterFolk

04-09-2007, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by Skywalker

It made sense to me at first, but then when you think about it, it's like...that's just too easy.

I mean you don't need to see God perform a miracle firsthand in order to believe in Him. That what faith is all about. I think that scriptural guidance and a person's own logic are enough proof for then to come to the realization that God exists, that we exist because of Him, and that we should show gratitude for our existence by being good people.

But what Judaism obviously says, is that the only people that need to follow all the time consuming boring laws that I would never follow are the people who witnessed the miracles.

The rest of the world is their to make the world a better place and act righteously/good people, instead of focusing their entire lives on the laws which the Jews believe is there sole right, and no one else is responsible for them.

Makes sense to me.

Skywalker

04-09-2007, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk

But what Judaism obviously says, is that the only people that need to follow all the time consuming boring laws that I would never follow are the people who witnessed the miracles.

Yes, but when you get down to the core of it, they didn't witness the miracles either; their ancestors did. So then why are they following these "boring laws" as you put it?

Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk

The rest of the world is their to make the world a better place and act righteously/good people, instead of focusing their entire lives on the laws which the Jews believe is there sole right, and no one else is responsible for them.

Makes sense to me.

But what happens if the rest of the world is not making the world a better place? They are under no obligation from God to make it a better place since they don't have to follow God's "boring laws", right?

I think it's only fair if everyone is under the same responsibility under God to make the world a better place by equally following God's laws.

Abu Zakariya

04-09-2007, 01:33 PM

lavikor

God knows best. I'm not familiar with the actual part in your Scriptures that mention it being an "eternal" law for the Jews, so I can't comment on that. All I know is that a Prophet has been sent for ALL of humanity and everyone has an obligation to follow him. The previous prophets were sent to their particular people.

King David

04-09-2007, 02:43 PM

G-d chose the People of Israel to observe His Torah (Written and Oral) in the Land of Israel, and there to be a Kingdom of Priests and a Holy People [Shemot/Exodus 19:6] and a Light unto the Nations [Yeshayahu/Isaiah 42:6].

Hemoo

04-09-2007, 03:17 PM

i have a question :

what does judaism are saying about the pictures and painting and status of humans and animals or any thing that has a soul ?

is it allowed or forbidden ???

King David

04-09-2007, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by hemoo

i have a question :

what does judaism are saying about the pictures and painting and status of humans and animals or any thing that has a soul ?

is it allowed or forbidden ???

Idolatry , This is the most forbidden thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ManchesterFolk

04-09-2007, 04:55 PM

I DO NOT WANT TO HIJACK THIS THREAD AND GET INTO LONG DISCUSSIONS SO THIS IS MY LAST POST> PM ME TO CONTINUE ALL CONVERSATIONS!

Yes, but when you get down to the core of it, they didn't witness the miracles either; their ancestors did. So then why are they following these "boring laws" as you put it?

Yes, but they are according to the Jewish poster, to pass it on and never let them forget it, since the covanent is an eternal one passed down.

But what happens if the rest of the world is not making the world a better place? They are under no obligation from God to make it a better place since they don't have to follow God's "boring laws", right?

I think it's only fair if everyone is under the same responsibility under God to make the world a better place by equally following God's laws.

They aren't? Of course they are, the Jewish guy just said a bit ago that Jews must follow the Laws of Torah (spirituality) and Non-Jews must follow the laws of making the world a better place, helping one another etc.

Your view of fairness, might be contradicting the Quran. Please read your own scriptures:

2:47 O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you and how I preferred you to (all) creatures.

May I? Thank you... please correct me Jewish posters if I am wrong.

Genesis 17:19. And God said, "Indeed, your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you shall name him Isaac, and I will establish My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his seed after him.

Exodus 31:16: The B'nei Yisrael shall preserve the Shabbos, to maintain the Shabbos for their generations, as an everlasting covenant.

Abu Zakariya

04-09-2007, 07:35 PM

ManchesterFolk

I don't know how one could interpret those passages (like for instance, maybe there was a particular condition etc.), but lets say that it is 100% clear... The Islamic position on this still stands. This law was for the Jews and Moses was their Prophet. A new one has, however, come and he is for all of humanity. The Sabbath isn't part of the Shari'ah of this Ummah and if the Jewish scriptures contradict this, then we as Muslims are obviously going to believe the Islamic sources before we believe what other sources state.

Abu Zakariya

04-09-2007, 08:51 PM

KingDavid

You've already quoted those verses and I've already responded! Just look a few pages back. What you are doing right now is called spamming.

King David

04-09-2007, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk

Genesis 17:19. And God said, "Indeed, your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you shall name him Isaac, and I will establish My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his seed after him.

Berei**** - Chapter 17

With commentary from Rashi

1. And Abram was ninety-nine years old, and God appeared to Abram, and He said to him, "I am the Almighty God; walk before Me and be perfect.

I am the Almighty God Heb. שַׁדַי -I am He Whose Godliness suffices for every creature. [שֶׁ that, דַי is sufficient]. Therefore, walk before Me, and I will be your God and your Protector, and wherever it (this name) appears in Scripture, it means “His sufficiency,” but each one is [to be interpreted] according to the context. — [from Gen. Rabbah 47:3]
walk before Me As the Targum renders: “Serve Me, cleave to My service.”
and be perfect This too is one command following another command: be perfect in all My trials (Mid. Ps. 119: 3), i.e., “Walk before Me” with faith and honesty, and also be perfect in all My trials. [Mizrachi] According to its midrashic interpretation, walk before Me refers to the commandment of circumcision, and thereby, you will be perfect, for as long as the foreskin is upon you, I consider you imperfect (Gen. Rabbah 46:1). Another explanation: “and be perfect” -Now you are missing [control over] five organs: two eyes, two ears, and the male organ. I will add a letter to your name, and the numerical value of your letters [of your name] will be 248, corresponding to the number of your organs (Tan. Lech Lecha 16, Ned. 32b).

2. And I will place My covenant between Me and between you, and I will multiply you very greatly."

And I will place My covenant A covenant of love and the covenant of the land, to give it to you as a heritage through [your fulfillment of] this commandment. — [from Gen. Rabbah 46:9]

3. And Abram fell upon his face, and God spoke with him, saying,

And Abram fell upon his face from fear of the Shechinah, for as long as he was uncircumcised, he did not have the strength to stand when the Divine Presence stood over him, and that is what is said concerning Balaam (Num. 24:4):“who falls and his eyes are open” (Num. Rabbah 12:8). I found this in the Baraitha of Rabbi Eliezer (Pirkei d’Rabbi Eliezer ch. 29).

4. "As for Me, behold My covenant is with you, and you shall become the father of a multitude of nations.

5. And your name shall no longer be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.

the father of a multitude of nations אַב הֲמוֹן is an acrostic of his name [i.e., - אב ר הם]. (Gen. Rabbah 46:7). The “resh” that was in it [his name] originally, denoting that he was the father only of Aram, which was his native place, whereas now [he became] the father of the whole world (Ber. 13a): nevertheless the “resh” that was there originally was not moved from its place. For even the “yud” in Sarai’s name complained to the Shechinah until it was added to Joshua, as it is said: (Num. 13:16):“and Moses called Hosea [הוֹשֵׁעַ] the son of Nun, Joshua [יְהוֹשֻׁעַ].” - [from Gen. Rabbah 47:1]

6. And I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings will emerge from you.

and I will make you into nations [This refers to] Israel and Edom, for he already had Ishmael, and He would therefore not be informing him about him.

7. And I will establish My covenant between Me and between you and between your seed after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be to you for a God and to your seed after you.

And I will establish My covenant And what is that covenant? To be to you for a God.

8. And I will give you and your seed after you the land of your sojournings, the entire land of Canaan for an everlasting possession, and I will be to them for a God."

for an everlasting possession And there I will be to you for a God (Gen. Rabbah 46:9), but if one dwells outside the Holy Land, it is as though he has no God (Keth. 110b).

9. And God said to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you throughout their generations.

And you Heb. וְאַתָּה. This “vav” connects [this verse] to the preceding matter. “As for Me, behold My covenant is with you,” and you must be careful to observe it. Now what does its observance entail?“This is My covenant, which you shall observe…that every male among you be circumcised.”

10. This is My covenant, which you shall observe between Me and between you and between your seed after you, that every male among you be circumcised.

between Me and you those living now.
and between your seed who are destined to be born.
be circumcised Heb. הִמוֹל, is like לְהִמוֹל, to circumcise [the infinitive], as you might עִשוֹת in place לַעִשוֹת, to do.

11. And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be as the sign of a covenant between Me and between you.

And you shall circumcise וּנְמַלְתֶּם is like וּמַלְתֶּם, and the “nun” is superfluous, a radical that sometimes appears in it, like the“nun” of נוֹשׁ‏ֵ and the“nun” of נוֹשֵׂא וּנְמַלְתֶּם has the same form as וּנְשָׂאתֶם, (i.e., the Kal form). But יִמוֹל is in the passive form (the Nifal), like יֵעָשֶׂה (it will be done) יֵאָכֵל (it will be eaten).

12. And at the age of eight days, every male shall be circumcised to you throughout your generations, one that is born in the house, or one that is purchased with money, from any foreigner, who is not of your seed.

one that is born in the house whom the maidservant bore in the house.
one that is purchased with money whom he bought after he was born.

13. Those born in the house and those purchased for money shall be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh as an everlasting covenant.

Those born in the house… shall be circumcised Here Scripture repeated it [the commandment to circumcise a slave born in the house;] but did not state [that it is to be] on the eighth day, to teach you that there is a slave born in the house who is circumcised after eight days [other editions: at the age of one day], as is delineated in Tractate Shabbath (135b).

14. And an uncircumcised male, who will not circumcise the flesh of his foreskin-that soul will be cut off from its people; he has broken My covenant."

And an uncircumcised male Here Scripture teaches that circumcision is in that place that distinguishes between male and female.
who will not circumcise When he reaches the age when he becomes liable for punishment, then [his soul] will be cut off (Shab. 133b), but his father [who does not circumcise him] is not punishable by “kareth” (spiritual excision), but is guilty of transgressing a positive commandment (Yeb. 70b).

15. And God said to Abraham, "Your wife Sarai-you shall not call her name Sarai, for Sarah is her name.

you shall not call her name Sarai which means “my princess,” for me, but not for others. But Sarah, in an unqualified sense, shall be her name, that she will be a princess over all. — [from Ber. 13a]

16. And I will bless her, and I will give you a son from her, and I will bless her, and she will become [a mother of]nations; kings of nations will be from her. "

And I will bless her And what is the blessing? That she returned to her youth, as it is said (below 18: 12): “My skin has become smooth.” - [from B.M. 87a]
and I will bless her with breast feeding, when she required it, on the day of Isaac’s feast, for people were murmuring against them, that they had brought a foundling from the street and were saying, “He is our son.” So each one brought her child with her, but not her wet nurse, and she (Sarah) nursed them all. That is what is said: (below 21:7):“Sarah has nursed children.” Gen. Rabbah (47:2) alludes slightly to this. — [from B.M. 87a]

17. And Abraham fell on his face and rejoiced, and he said to himself, "Will[a child]be born to one who is a hundred years old, and will Sarah, who is ninety years old, give birth?"

And Abraham fell on his face and rejoiced Heb. וַיִצְחָק Onkelos renders this as an expression of joy, וַחִדִי“and he rejoiced,” but the one [וַתִצְחָק] in the case of Sarah (below 18:12) [he renders] as an expression of laughter. You learn that Abraham believed and rejoiced, but Sarah did not believe and ridiculed, and for this reason, the Holy One, blessed be He, was angry with Sarah, but was not angry with Abraham.
Will [a child] be born to on, etc. There are questions which are positive assertions, like (I Sam. 2: 27): הִנִגְלה נִגְלֵיתִי, “Did I appear?” [meaning:“of course I appeared!”]; (II Sam. 15:27): הִרֹאֶה אַתָּה, “Do you see?” [meaning: “of course you see!”] This too is a positive assertion, and so did he say to himself, “Was such kindness done to anyone else, that the Holy One, blessed be He, is doing for me?”
and will Sarah, who is ninety years old Shall she be worthy of giving birth? Now although the first generations begot children at the age of five hundred, in Abraham’s time, the years were already lessened, and weakness had come to the world. Go out and learn this from the ten generations from Noah to Abraham, who hastened to beget children at the age of sixty and seventy.

18. And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael will live before You!"

If only Ishmael will live If only Ishmael will live! I do not deserve to receive such a reward as this.
will live before You [This means]: [“Let him] live in fear of You,” as in (verse 1): “Walk before Me,” [which Onkelos renders:]“Serve Me.” [following Targum Jonathan]

19. And God said, "Indeed, your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you shall name him Isaac, and I will establish My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his seed after him.

Indeed אִבָל is an expression of a confirmation of a statement, and likewise (below 42:21):“Indeed (אַבָל) , we are guilty;” (II Kings 4: 14):“Indeed (אַבָל), she has no son.” - [from Targumim]
and you shall name him Isaac Heb. יִצְחָק, because of the rejoicing (צְחוֹק) (Mid. Chaseroth v’Yetheroth. And some say: because of the ten (י) trials, and Sarah’s ninety (צ) years, and the eighth (ח) day on which he was circumcised, and Abraham’s hundred (ק) years. (Pirkei d’Rabbi Eliezer , ch. 32). (Other editions: “And My covenant.” Why is this written? Is it not already written (verse 9): “And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed, etc.?” But because He said (verse 7): “And I will establish, etc.,” one might think that the sons of Ishmael and the sons of Keturah are included in the establishment [of the covenant]. Therefore, Scripture states: “And I will establish My covenant with him,” and not with others. Now, why does it say [again in verse 21]: “But My covenant I will establish with Isaac?” This teaches us that he was holy from the womb. Another explanation [for the repetition of verse 19]: Said Rabbi Abba: Scripture here derives an a fortiori conclusion regarding the son of the mistress from [what is written regarding] the son of the handmaid. It is written here: “Behold I have blessed him, and I will make him fruitful, and I will multiply him.” This refers to Ishmael. How much more so,“But My covenant I will establish with Isaac!” (Gen. Rabbah 47:5).

20. And regarding Ishmael, I have heard you; behold I have blessed him, and I will make him fruitful, and I will multiply him exceedingly; he will beget twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation.

twelve princes Heb. נְשִׂיאִים. They will disappear like clouds, as (Prov. 25:14): Clouds (נְשִׂיאִים) and wind. — [from Gen. Rabbah 47:5]

21. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this time next year."

22. And He finished speaking with him, and God went up from above Abraham.

from above Abraham This is a euphemism used in reference to the Shechinah, and we learn that the righteous are the chariot of the Omnipresent. — [from Gen. Rabbah 47:6, 82:6]

23. And Abraham took Ishmael his son and all those born in his house and all those purchased with his money, every male of the people of Abraham's household, and he circumcised the flesh of their foreskin on that very day, as God had spoken with him.

on that very day On the very day that he was commanded (Mid. Ps. 112:2), during the day and not at night. He was afraid neither of the heathens nor of the scorners. [He circumcised in the light of day] so that his enemies and his contemporaries would not say,“Had we seen him, we would not have allowed him to circumcise and to fulfill the commandment of the Omnipresent” (Gen. Rabbah 47:9).
and he circumcised Heb. וַיָמָל, an expression in the וַיִפְעַל form, (the active [kal] form.)

24. And Abraham was ninety-nine years old, when he was circumcised of the flesh of his foreskin.

when he was circumcised Heb. בְּהִמֹלוֹ, when it was done to him, like (above 2:4):“when they were created (בְּהִבָּרְאָם).”

25. And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised of the flesh of his foreskin.

when he was circumcised of the flesh of his foreskin Concerning Abraham, it does not say אֵת, because he was lacking only the severing of the flesh, because it had already been flattened out by intercourse, but Ishmael, who was a youth, required that the foreskin be severed and the corona be uncovered. Therefore, in his case, it is אֵת. Gen. Rabbah (47:8).

26. On that very day, Abraham was circumcised, and[so was]Ishmael his son.

On that very day when Abraham reached the age of ninety-nine and Ishmael [reached the age of] thirteen,“Abraham was circumcised, and [so was] Ishmael his son.”

27. And all the people of his household, those born in his house and those bought with money from foreigners, were circumcised with him.

Hemoo

04-11-2007, 02:55 PM

what if the pictures and status not being worshiped ,are they also considered forbidden ??

King David

04-11-2007, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by hemoo

what if the pictures and status not being worshiped ,are they also considered forbidden ??

If it is in a place of prayer(synagogue). Then yes.
If its not in a place of prayer . Then no.

Abu Zakariya

04-11-2007, 07:39 PM

Is it allowed for you to go to graves of pious people and try to benefit from the "holiness" of the place or even ask the person in the grave to intercede to God?

rebelishaulman

04-11-2007, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk

Very interesting. It actually makes sense what you say, and you should take that as a compliment coming from an Agnostic.

Why thank you. It is a very interesting concept indeed. Judaism take on the spirituality we as Jews need to bring into the world, compared to the fixing and doing good deeds in the world that non-Jews must accomplish. The seven laws of Noah are expected of the descendants of Noah, which is the entire world. These are basic moral values that most people will follow without any realization that they are doing so. Monotheistic religions also follow this moral code usually. The essence of G-d's wonderful plan are all around us.

It makes sense. G-d expects the people who witnessed his miracles to follow and pass down the fear of the L-rd to their children. "dore ladore" which means from generation to generation. It is our responsibility as a people as a whole when our people begin to lose this faith.

I don't know how one could interpret those passages (like for instance, maybe there was a particular condition etc.), but lets say that it is 100% clear... The Islamic position on this still stands. This law was for the Jews and Moses was their Prophet. A new one has, however, come and he is for all of humanity. The Sabbath isn't part of the Shari'ah of this Ummah and if the Jewish scriptures contradict this, then we as Muslims are obviously going to believe the Islamic sources before we believe what other sources state.

I still would not understand why G-d would write "eternal" if he did not mean it. Since you think it must have been corrupted, then why would the Rabbi's make the following of the Sabbath eternal? What is the point of adding or changing that. Of course you do not know, but it is something to think about. However, your scriptures clearly recognize that the Jews were chosen. You disagree that we still are, which I really do not see a reason to care if you do or not.

They must follow the laws of morality. What happens when a Jew eats pork? He is breaking the law, but he is still under the obligation.

The obligation for gentiles is to make the world a better place in part by following the seven laws of Noah.

Is it allowed for you to go to graves of pious people and try to benefit from the "holiness" of the place or even ask the person in the grave to intercede to God?

Of course, but it is not to intercede at all. There are no intermediaries to G-d. Each person has a connection to G-d in his own heart.

The point of praying to G-d at the grave of a great sage is for your own benefit. When at the grave of a sage you are inclined to think about how you can better yourself. When at the grave of a sage, you must think to yourself, "wow this man was such a servant of G-d, how could I better myself to be more like him." To benefit from the holyness of a pious persons grave is not to benefit because that person was holy. On the contrary, his acts and love of G-d were what were holy, and the ways we can try to adapt there amazing service of G-d, includes visiting their graves.

Abu Zakariya

04-11-2007, 08:50 PM

Is it permissible to adress the person in the grave in any way?

rebelishaulman

04-11-2007, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by Abu Zakariya

Is it permissible to adress the person in the grave in any way?

You can address him, but of course not pray to him.

When I go to a cemetery, I will sometimes speak to the person although they are dead. (It is a very one way conversation :-[ ). It is a type of healing for me. Not the person. (However, you never know.)

King David

04-11-2007, 09:43 PM

you dont pray and ask the dead guy you pray to g*d.
you pray for the dead guy.

NoName55

04-11-2007, 10:01 PM

would I be lynched If I was to claim that When we pass by a graveyard, we are recommended to say: "Assalamu alaikum, or peace be to you. (Because that is the dwelling place of people who were believers)." This is a greeting to the dead which is communicated to them by God. The angels reply to us on their behalf, even though we do not hear their reply.?

rebelishaulman

04-11-2007, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by NoName55

I'm not exactly sure what your talking about. Can you clarify your question? Thanks.

NoName55

04-11-2007, 10:54 PM

I'm not exactly sure what your talking about. Can you clarify your question? Thanks.

when you pass a grave yard and say shalom o people of the grave (like I say "Assalamu alaikum"

is that allowed in Judaism?

rebelishaulman

04-11-2007, 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by NoName55

when you pass a grave yard and say shalom o people of the grave (like I say "Assalamu alaikum"

is that allowed in Judaism?

Not sure. I guess so. I mean we will say "Rest in peace" or after the name of a Rabbi who has died ZT"L

Which is an acronym for "may the memory of the righteous be blessed".

Is that similar to what your saying?

For example, Rabbi Akiva zt"l died.

We write that at the end when refering to a dead sage.

Read this for more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorifics_in_Judaism

NoName55

04-11-2007, 11:04 PM

Is that similar to what your saying

yes,more or less

"Assalamu alaikum" exactly means "Peace be upon you" you say "rest in peace"

so it sounds to me that the sentiment or the essence is the same

b'shalom/ma'asalaama

noodles

04-12-2007, 02:36 AM

Is cannibalism allowed in Judaism?

(I'm quite sure the answer is no, yet I have a train of thought that I want to put up that is based on the answer to this question.)

In another thread, and I will quote here, this was posted by rebelishaulman

Also, have you ever been a rat? Do you know how they communicate? Do you know what its like to be one? Obviously not, so if you have a very small goal to accomplish then you might be an animal because less is expected of you and your put on the earth to accomplish some deed to help your soul.

Your view of reincarnation as, when you do bad you become a rat, and if you do good you become rich, is very very off.

Your reincarnated and put into the role on earth that you need to try and accomplish your purpose. On the contrary, a rat has very little to accomplish and he is much closer to heaven because he has less responsibilites than one who is very rich and can do what they please and have a lot of power. Those people are expected to do a lot more and if they do not they they did not accomplish what there goals were.

To try and stay in topic. A man who gives milions of his dollars to help fight poverty, Jew or not, is accomlishing his goals. G-d gave him power and he is using it for good, not his pleasure.

Reincarnation is not for punishment. Being an animal is not due to how bad you were. It is due to what purpose you have for coming back to earth.

So far, I understand that it is possible to be re-incarnated into animals. In essence, the soul is transferred into this creature. However, the soul itself is not of any significant shape, because it would be mental to try to form a shape for the soul. Anyway, my point here is that it is very possible for me to be re-incarnated as a sheep.

If the very fact that I may be re-incarnated into a sheep or any such creature that Humans eat, means that you may be devouring another human being's soul.

Ok, lets just assume the soul leaves the sheep's body after it is slaughtered, does it mean that it has accomplished its task or does it have to redo the task since its unfortunate death.

Another question.

The Jews acknowledge the first human to be Adam. Right? (I hope the answer is right, because I haven't checked this)

So does this mean that the animals present during his lifetime had a soul that was being punished for its previous sins?

I'm very sorry if I sound ignorant. I haven't done much research on these topics and I need some sites that are composed by Jews and not someone else. I don't seem to have enough knowledge of Judaism to know the right from wrong. So if you are willing, could you point me in a direction of a good site to read about the basics?

rebelishaulman

04-12-2007, 04:15 AM

This is tough since I am not completly knowledgable on this topic but I will try to answer your questions:

If the very fact that I may be re-incarnated into a sheep or any such creature that Humans eat, means that you may be devouring another human being's soul.

The soul leaves the body upon death.

However, could this tie into the prohibition all of mankind including gentiles have of not pulling off the limb of a live animal and eating it? Not sure if it is directly connected but you never know.

Ok, lets just assume the soul leaves the sheep's body after it is slaughtered, does it mean that it has accomplished its task or does it have to redo the task since its unfortunate death.

The Jews acknowledge the first human to be Adam. Right? (I hope the answer is right, because I haven't checked this)

Yes.

So does this mean that the animals present during his lifetime had a soul that was being punished for its previous sins?

No, of course not. Since Adam was the first that means they had to be created humans, animals everything. It is a tough concept, but as a whole I don't think by any means every animal has a soul that is human etc. But sometimes for a short mission or task that you should not create new relationships in, that might occur. However, don't quote me on that. I never dove into this type of learning. I like more logical stuff then mystics.

I'm very sorry if I sound ignorant. I haven't done much research on these topics and I need some sites that are composed by Jews and not someone else. I don't seem to have enough knowledge of Judaism to know the right from wrong. So if you are willing, could you point me in a direction of a good site to read about the basics?

Here are some sites on basic Judaism and "Giglgul" which means cycle or reincarnation:

http://www.askmoses.com/
www.aish.com
www.chabad.org
http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=215&o=190
http://www.aish.com/literacy/concept..._Tradition.asp
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...carnation.html

A soul descends to this world from “beneath the throne of glory”—a place much higher than the highest angels—to accomplish her mission in this physical world. After her allotted time, the soul returns to be judged. She may need to be cleansed in gehinom. But eventually, she is able to reap her reward, which is to experience the Divine light that she generated through all her good deeds. But usually the entire mission of that soul does not get accomplished in a single lifetime. There may also be some mess that needs to be fixed up, left over from a previous life. So that aspect of the soul that still needs completion must return. And so, souls return again and again, until their job is complete. By now, almost all souls that come here are returnees.

north_malaysian

04-12-2007, 04:27 AM

Originally Posted by noodles

Is cannibalism allowed in Judaism?

Huh?:exhausted

Are you among those who believe that Jews eat Palestinian kids....? If you believe that... you're crazy...:blind:

north_malaysian

04-12-2007, 04:35 AM

If moshiach come and establish a Jewish state.... it means that all people should follow Jewish Law.... is it includes the Non Jewish too?

rebelishaulman

04-12-2007, 04:43 AM

Is cannibalism allowed in Judaism?

No. It is against Jewish law.

If moshiach come and establish a Jewish state.... it means that all people should follow Jewish Law.... is it includes the Non Jewish too?

No, Jewish law was only meant for the Jewish people, as part of the covenant. When Moshiah comes, the noahide laws will be the universal religion.

rebelishaulman

04-12-2007, 04:44 AM

Good night you all. I will try to get on again sometime before the week is over.

Shalom (Peace).

Woodrow

04-12-2007, 10:23 PM

This thread has strayed a little from it's original intent. The intent is simple. It is to be a thread where a person having a question about Judaism, may ask the question and have it answered by a Jew.

Simple.

To keep it simple and to keep the discussions peacefull only two members are permitted to answer questions in this thread those being Lavakor and rebelishaulman. Questions about judaism will have the answers deleted if they are answered by anyone other then those 2 people.

A final summation as to what I just said:

To keep it simple and to keep the discussions peacefull only two members are permitted to answer questions in this thread those being Lavakor and rebelishaulman.

Muhammad

04-12-2007, 10:50 PM

Greetings,

In the course of this thread I noticed a couple of statements made regarding Islam, so I feel it is important to address those...

Originally Posted by rebelishaulman

However, your scriptures clearly recognize that the Jews were chosen. You disagree that we still are, which I really do not see a reason to care if you do or not.

Just to clarify - our scripture mentions the 'Children of Israel' as being chosen, not the Jews.

But the books of Islam and Christianity vehemently curse everyone in the world who disbelieves them although they did not demonstrate their proofs to the whole world.

I can understand if that is the point of view you hold. Our explanation in Islam, however, would be that the proofs are available to the whole world (such as the Qur'an) which is why everyone is required to believe in them.

My apologies if this was off-topic, but I thought I'd just briefly respond to the above and now we can hopefully stay on topic!

Peace.

lavikor201

04-12-2007, 11:15 PM

Just to clarify - our scripture mentions the 'Children of Israel' as being chosen, not the Jews.

And who are the "children of israel" if not the followers of Torah who recieved in on Mt. Sinai?

I of course respect your view, however, I don't view the Quran as proof in reality. No matter how "poetic" it is. I think he is refering to actual revelation to an entire nation, instead of to one person which says G-d spoke to him.

שלום עליכם
Peace be upon you.
Shalom Aleikhem.

NoName55

04-12-2007, 11:28 PM

who are the "children of israel

All Semites

b'shalom/ma'asalaama

a member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Middle East and northern Africa
of or relating to or characteristic of Semites; "Semite peoples"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

lavikor201

04-13-2007, 12:21 AM

Originally Posted by NoName55

So all semites experienced the revelation on Mt. Sinai? Really? :X

NoName55

04-13-2007, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by lavikor201

So all semites experienced the revelation on Mt. Sinai? Really? :X

you are implying as if you were there!

Did any Semites switch over to Christ p.b.u.h upon his arrival?
Did any Semites switch over to Muhammad p.b.u.h upon his arrival?

were any of present followers of Judaism there on the Mount? (answer without resorting to re-incarnation)

lavikor201

04-13-2007, 12:39 AM

Originally Posted by NoName55

The families were:

Genesis 17, Verse 19: G-d said: "Indeed, your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will name him Yitzchok. I will establish My covenant with him as an eternal covenant to his descendants after him.

Christians and Islamic opinions both admit that not a whole lot of Jews followed them, and that there followers came from the gentiles. But even the ones that did follow them, what does this prove? No matter the actions of the Jewish people the covenant stays the same.

To let you know semites also switched over to worship pagan gods. Does this mean that those pagan religions are legit as well? Of course not!

I do not really understand your point when asking stating this. The Quran does not say "semites" they say "Children of Israel" the tribe that was freed from Egypt which the Quran also says occured. Therefore it is not speaking of all semites. It is speaking of a tribe of semites. The Jewish people.

O Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favor which I bestowed upon you, and fulfil your covenant with Me as I fulfil My Covenant with you, and fear none but Me.

Ya banee isra-eela othkurooniAAmatiya allatee anAAamtu AAalaykum waawfoo biAAahdee oofibiAAahdikum wa-iyyaya fairhabooni

Does banee israeela mean semite in arabic? :rollseyes :)

May I ask if the rest of the chapter which "rebukes" the children of Israel is really rebuking all semites as well. :exhausted

May I present Quran commentary that claims this is specifically refering to the Jewish people?

Woodrow

04-13-2007, 12:48 AM

Reminder this is not a debate thread. the purpose is not to disprove or prove any Religious belief.

It is true that each of these individual questions is a valid topic of debate, but this is not the thread for that debate.

It is to be just simple statements of what a Jew believes.

It is already known and understood that some of the Judaisic beliefs are not shared by other religions.

The goal is for us to learn what stories we heard are actual Judaic beliefs and which ones are just stories attributed to Jews with no basis of origin.

lavikor201

04-13-2007, 03:51 AM

i have heard from a jew before that Jews can pray in any religious temple, like a mosque, baha'i temple, or something of the like, as long as those people believe in G-d. so like is that true? like if you, as a rabbi, went to a mosque, you would be able to pray and all in that mosque since you guys worship the same G-d?
now also, one other question.. btw, i'm not just asking the rabbi.. i'm asking any jews here!!

This is coming most likely on the discussion on "Can a Jew enter a pagan place of worship". The answer is no. They cannot. A mosque was claimed to be a non-pagan place. However, joining their prayers which proclaim Mohammad as a prophet is wrong. However, you can personall walk in and pray persoanlly their I guess. Just like you could in a music room for example.

anyways so ok, so the other question is what do you guys think of the city of iram being discovered, and the qu'ran mentioning it? like is this a miracle, did Jews believe it, or?

How exactly is this a "miracle"?

north_malaysian

04-13-2007, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by lavikor201

"Can a Jew enter a pagan place of worship". The answer is no. They cannot. [

Does the rules include the defunctional Egyptian temples? Just for the sake of tourism?

Originally Posted by lavikor201

A mosque was claimed to be a non-pagan place.

Who was the first person saying that mosque is a non-pagan place?

Can Muslims pray in the Western Wall?

rebelishaulman

04-13-2007, 07:08 PM

Does the rules include the defunctional Egyptian temples? Just for the sake of tourism?

Are prayers still being held in them?

Who was the first person saying that mosque is a non-pagan place?

Can Muslims pray in the Western Wall?

Do not know.

Muslims can pray at the Western Wall. Odd, right, Jews cannot pray on the Temple Mount but Muslims can at the Western Wall.

Oh well.

The Sabbath is coming, so I must go now. Have a good Sabbath.

שַׁבָּת שָׁלוֹם
Shabbat Shalom.

Philosopher

04-13-2007, 07:53 PM

Why cant Jews pray at Temple Mount? Legal restrictions?

ManchesterFolk

04-13-2007, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by Philosopher

Why cant Jews pray at Temple Mount? Legal restrictions?

I think it is because Israel gave full authroity of the site to Islamic courts, therefore, they run the site, and the state of Israel, being a democracy respects the rights to hold the land.

Muhammad

04-13-2007, 11:04 PM

Peace be upon you too lavikor,

Originally Posted by lavikor201

And who are the "children of israel" if not the followers of Torah who recieved in on Mt. Sinai?

I would presume that the followers of the Torah received on Mount Sinai are not the same as modern day Jews (according to Islam), hence my reason for making that distinction earlier.

The reason for my clarification here was because I felt certain Islamic beliefs were being misquoted. I know that you do not view the Qur'an as proof, yet you are still misrepresenting it according to the Islamic view. In the same way that the Torah was revealed to one man, likewise was the Qur'an. But Moses was sent to one particular nation, yet Muhammad (pbuh) to all mankind until the end of time. So we believe the Torah and the Qur'an to be very different books and serving different purposes, and we shall leave it at that.

Malaikah

04-14-2007, 01:31 AM

Hello,

I heard that women aren't allowed to be taken as witnesses in Jewish courts.

Can you please clarify this?

lavikor201

04-14-2007, 10:08 PM

Shalom Muhammad, you wrote:

Originally Posted by Muhammad

Peace be upon you too lavikor,

I would presume that the followers of the Torah received on Mount Sinai are not the same as modern day Jews (according to Islam), hence my reason for making that distinction earlier.

Could you elaborate more? I am a bit curious now. I was always under the impression that Muhammad in all of his meetings with Jews in Arabia refereed to Jews as "people of the book", and called those current Jews the continued followers of the religion that goes back to Mt. Sinai, however I could be wrong.

Either way, where are the "old Jews" who received the revelation on Mt. Sinai now? I am pretty sure that we have very good documentation through archeology showing the existence of Jews in the land of Israel, and the same traditions being followed today by these "modern Jews". I am also curious as to who we "modern Jews" really are, especially since the new DNA experiments in Israel and New York have shown common DNA traits in Arab, African and European Jews that the local inhabitants of these areas do not hold a very odd state of affairs considering there are very few if any nations that are so spread across the globe, yet have such a genetic connection.

Originally Posted by Muhammad

I realize your concern and I invite you to correct and misstatement I have made about Islam at anytime in this thread. However, I now must make a correction on your post. You say "in the same way" however, the Torah and Quran were not revealed in the same way. The Torah was revealed at Mt. Sinai, where G-d was literally heard by the entire nation of Israel as our tradition states. Now correct me if I am wrong, but G-d was not heard by any nation of Arabs according to Islamic tradition, and the Quran according to your tradition was revealed to Muhammad alone. Therefore, I must say that our traditions differ on how our scriptures were revealed and in no way are they "the same"

I again, urge you to correct any misstatements about your religion here Muhammad.

Peace, and have a great new week. :)

Shalom Malaikah, you wrote:

Originally Posted by Malaikah

Hello,

I heard that women aren't allowed to be taken as witnesses in Jewish courts.

Can you please clarify this?

A person who is in a position to give testimony about a case is required to appear in court; thus if a woman’s testimony were acceptable, she could be forced to appear in court. [Similarly, a king cannot serve as either a judge or a witness.] Thus women are restricted for a constructive reason: to avoid interfering with their more important responsibilities. These disqualifications apply only to matters that require appearance in court; a woman’s testimony is perfectly acceptable in matters involving religious law (issur ve-heter).

However, The Ramah in Choshen Mishpat (Siman 35, 14) rules that in a case where only women congregate or in a case, and where only women could possibly testify, they can and should testify. (Terumas Hadeshen Siman 353 and Agudah Perek 10, Yochasin)

Therefore, women are not required to testify in court because for example who would watch the children, etc? Women are obligated to under Jewish law perform certain household mitzvot, while men are required to do other laws. If a crime happens and only women congregate in the place it did, or only women could testify, then a womens testimony would be completly valid. But if there were men there that could testify as the required number of witnesses then the men would do so. An example would be Haredi Rabbi Harav Hagaon Benzion Wosner, writing on behalf of the Shevet Levi Beit Din (Rabbinical court) of Monsey, New York, identified sexual harassment cases as coming under a class of exceptions to the traditional exclusion, under which "even children or women" have not only a right but an obligation to testify, and can be relied upon by a rabbinical court as valid witnesses.

King David

04-15-2007, 01:38 PM

Lavikor I nead your help:

What would you understand from this:

o children of israel! remember my favor upon you and fulfill my covenant that i fulfill your covenant and fear none but me

Can you give me the verses of the convenant.

What would you understand from this:

It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.

Toda

rebelishaulman

04-15-2007, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by King David

These are verses from the Quran. What exactly do you want from us? Can you state your question a bit clearer?

Thank you.

King David

04-15-2007, 07:48 PM

I think that the Quran reafirms yahadut and the Tanach and that we should help them understand (be a light upon the nations).

Arrabic as hebrew can be interpretted in different ways. Today because they have no clue in Tanach they interpret in a wrong way.

Yeshayahu - Chapter 42-6. I am the Lord; I called you with righteousness and I will strengthen your hand; and I formed you, and I made you for a people's covenant, for a light to nations.

tikra et kol haperek

King David

04-15-2007, 08:47 PM

THE NODA B'YEHUDA Reb Yechezkel Landau

I am a great grandson of his can you give me some information about who follows his beliefs.
Can you tell me about him, and about his beliefs?
My grandfather had a stroke and my dad is prettymuch unbeliever.

rebelishaulman

04-15-2007, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by King David

Well, good luck with that mission, although I disagree that we interpret the Tanakh the wrong way.

What interpretation do you disagree about in the Tanakh?

He was a very smart man, who wrote a halachic work I believe nadah bayehuda, ruling (although he never cites proof) that all the diaspora who are buried in the diaspora will be ressurected as well.

His nature was that he was a Gaon, and very smart. I have heard he descneds from Rashi, but I cannot verify this, and many have claimed this so I have no clue if that is true or not. He also united the Jewish community at a time when a huge division between rabbis were destroying Am Yisroel at a time when the goyam were very bloodthristy against the Jewish people.

If you are a descendant of him, then I am sad to see his lineage has succumbed to the yetzer horah and I pray you will return to the Torah Judaism he preached.

noodles

04-15-2007, 10:03 PM

I realize your concern and I invite you to correct and misstatement I have made about Islam at anytime in this thread. However, I now must make a correction on your post. You say "in the same way" however, the Torah and Quran were not revealed in the same way. The Torah was revealed at Mt. Sinai, where G-d was literally heard by the entire nation of Israel as our tradition states. Now correct me if I am wrong, but G-d was not heard by any nation of Arabs according to Islamic tradition, and the Quran according to your tradition was revealed to Muhammad alone. Therefore, I must say that our traditions differ on how our scriptures were revealed and in no way are they "the same"

I again, urge you to correct any misstatements about your religion here Muhammad.

Peace, and have a great new week.

If the Torah was revealed to an entire nation, why was Moses needed?

(Sorry if it sounds rather crude, but I couldn't put the question any other way)

rebelishaulman

04-15-2007, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by noodles

If the Torah was revealed to an entire nation, why was Moses needed?

(Sorry if it sounds rather crude, but I couldn't put the question any other way)

Moses was needed to write it down by his hand onto the scrolls to learn, and was also needed as a judge and teacher of the Torah to the people. G-d verified the message by national revelation, however, he did not teach every word of Torah to the Jewish people, but instead used Moses to do this.

Even things that happen in front of small crowds can eventually be distorted in the details - like playing telephone. If there would be no disagreements about something that happened in front of a crowd, you can be more assured that it is so. The very fact that there are no discrepancies is the evidence.

Kabbalas HaTorah, on the other hand, was uncontested in ancient times - there was no controversy, there was no discrepancies, and even the other religions, who would have benefited had they claimed that G-d said to follow Jesus or Mohammad, did not do that. They could not - it was historical unanimous fact that Kabbalas HaTorah happened.

In front of millions of people, with no dissenting opinions.

That Jesus thing supports the proof to the Torah - because even a small issue like who killed jesus is so subject to disagreements. Thus, the fact that a miracle like Hashem speaking to millions of people is not subject to any disagreement throughout history is the proof.

Even though Moshe learned from Hashem for 40 days and nights, the entire nation heard Hashem say Anochi, lo yihiyeh lechah.

King David

04-15-2007, 10:30 PM

Well, good luck with that mission, although I disagree that we interpret the Tanakh the wrong way.

What interpretation do you disagree about in the Tanakh?

No I wasnt speaking about the Tanach!

Muhammad

04-15-2007, 11:06 PM

Hello lavikor,

Originally Posted by lavikor201

Perhaps I was wrong to differentiate between those terms. What I had in mind was how Muslims believe the Torah was changed and so those following it today could not be upon the same way of those following it when it was revealed. It might also be worth noting that although the Children of Israel were favoured by Allaah, they were also humiliated because of their defiance and disbelief; and that not all of the Children of Israel were alike, since some believed in the revelations of Allaah whilst others rejected them.

Either way, where are the "old Jews" who received the revelation on Mt. Sinai now? I am pretty sure that we have very good documentation through archeology showing the existence of Jews in the land of Israel, and the same traditions being followed today by these "modern Jews". I am also curious as to who we "modern Jews" really are, especially since the new DNA experiments in Israel and New York have shown common DNA traits in Arab, African and European Jews that the local inhabitants of these areas do not hold a very odd state of affairs considering there are very few if any nations that are so spread across the globe, yet have such a genetic connection.

It's interesting if they have common DNA; is that because they did not integrate much with other nations?

However, I now must make a correction on your post. You say "in the same way" however, the Torah and Quran were not revealed in the same way. The Torah was revealed at Mt. Sinai, where G-d was literally heard by the entire nation of Israel as our tradition states. Now correct me if I am wrong, but G-d was not heard by any nation of Arabs according to Islamic tradition, and the Quran according to your tradition was revealed to Muhammad alone. Therefore, I must say that our traditions differ on how our scriptures were revealed and in no way are they "the same"

You are absolutely right in that our scriptures were revealed very differently. I apologise for the misunderstanding - as far as I know in Islamic tradition, Moses received the Tablets on Mt. Sinai and then brought them down to his people. I did not know that the Jewish account is different on this.

Thank you for your understanding, and may you also have a good week!

Peace :).

rebelishaulman

04-15-2007, 11:24 PM

Shalom Muhammad, if I may can I respond? You wrote:

True, disbelief among some of the Children of Israel did occur, we do not view belief or disbelief as anything other than an action which will result in reward or punishment from G-d. The fact that someone disbelieves in the Torah has nothing to do with the status of the covanent.

So said the L-rd: If the heavens above will be measured and the foundations of the earth below will be fathomed, I too will reject all the seed of Israel because of all they did, says the L-rd.
(Jeremiah 31:36)

Hasn't quite happened yet, has it?

"And yet for all that (rebellion), when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, neither will I abhor them, destroy them, [nor] break the covenant with them, for I am HaShem, their G-d."
(Leviticus 26:44)

"The word of the HaShem shall stand firm forever"
(Isaiah 40:10)

"Observe His laws and commandments, which I enjoin upon you this day, that it may go well with you and your children after you and you may live in the land that the HaShem your G-d is assigning to you for all time."
(Deuteronomy 4:40)

These are the reasons why we the law of the Torah will never be replaced by another foreign law.

It's interesting if they have common DNA; is that because they did not integrate much with other nations?

We are commanded by G-d to not intermarry with the gentiles.

"You shall not intermarry with them: do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons. For you will turn your children away from Me to worship other gods..."
(Deuteronomy 7:1-3).

Therefore very little intermarriage was ever done in the Jewish communities that were spread around the earth as a result of the exile. The influences that came in from the outside of our culture are those that converts brought in.

You have a great week as well.

Peace.

Muhammad

04-15-2007, 11:57 PM

Greetings rebelishaulman,

Of course you are welcome to respond; thank you for that explanation of your beliefs :).

Skywalker

04-16-2007, 08:40 AM

Wait a sec, in the movie "The Ten Commandments" with Charelton Heston, it shows Moses (pbuh) going up to the mountain for 40 days and bringing the tablets to the people. They did not witness the actual revalation. This was a Jewish production, was it not?

King David

04-16-2007, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Skywalker

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

Are you for real?

Pls read and get smarter:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=63255
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/

Skywalker

04-16-2007, 06:25 PM

I didn't find any useful infomation regarding my question by following those links. Do you think you could find more direct links to the subject? Or just make it simple and answer the question...please.

King David

04-16-2007, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by Skywalker

Shemot - Chapter 19-9. And the Lord said to Moses, "Behold, I am coming to you in the thickness of the cloud, in order that the people hear when I speak to you, and they will also believe in you forever." And Moses relayed the words of the people to the Lord.

Shemot - Chapter 20
15. And all the people saw the voices and the torches, the sound of the shofar, and the smoking mountain, and the people saw and trembled; so they stood from afar.
16. They said to Moses, "You speak with us, and we will hear, but let God not speak with us lest we die."
17. But Moses said to the people, "Fear not, for God has come in order to exalt you, and in order that His awe shall be upon your faces, so that you shall not sin."
18. The people remained far off, but Moses drew near to the opaque darkness, where God was.
19. The Lord said to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, You have seen that from the heavens I have spoken with you.

If you want to read more on this

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=9880

rebelishaulman

04-16-2007, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by Skywalker

Hahaha! The Movie!!! :giggling: :giggling: ;D ;D :giggling: :giggling: ;D

You watched the movie and are using it as a source? Please read the Torah while watching the movie and tell me how accurate it is... lol. You crack me up man!

Skywalker

04-16-2007, 07:42 PM

I'm glad you guys are finding my lack of Jewish knowledge funny, but for ur info, I wouldn't laugh at you if you asked me a silly question about Islam. Maybe it's just the way each of us views mutual respect...

Alright, so if this is NOT how it happened, then why did they present it that way in the movie? Wouldn't the Jewish authority responsible for the accuracy of the movie be careful to make it as accurate as possible?

rebelishaulman

04-16-2007, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by Skywalker

I'm sorry, I am not laughing at you at all, I am laughing at the fact at how common these questions are. The movie was not made in accordance at all from the Torah. It was made as a movie.

I don't think there was such a "Jewish police" forcing them to be ver accurate in concerns to the actual story.

Read this:

There are many differences between the film and the storyline as it is traditionally understood from the Bible. According to the DVD commentary track, some details were taken from the Koran. (Right there this should tell you this work has nothing to do with the actual Torah story.)
In the movie, Yochabel, Moses' birth mother (Jochebed in the Bible), is shown as a slave working on the Treasure City construction site. However, the descendants of Levi (the third son of Jacob) had never been enslaved. DeMille was aware of this; he has Yochabel in a later scene saying "We are Levites, appointed Shepherds of Israel." If Moses wanted to live the life of a slave, he must not have declared himself a Levite.
Omitted from the film are the story of Shiphrah and Puah (Exodus 1:15-21), the attack by the Amalekites and the Battle of Rephidim, the story of Zipporah circumcising her son by Moses (Exodus 4:24-26), the stories about God providing manna, quail and water to Israel, and the account of Moses and seventy Elders of Israel eating and drinking in the presence of God (Exodus 24:9-11).
The Pharaohs are all named in the film: Ramses I, Seti I, Ramses II. In the Bible, they are all called "Pharaoh" and no other names are given. (see Pharaoh of the Exodus).
In the Bible, the wives of the Pharaohs are not even mentioned. In the film, we see a great deal of Queen Nefretiri. Her name is a variant of Nefertari, the Great Royal Wife of Rameses II. The Bible says "The Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart", and the film makes clear that Nefretiri's schemes are the means through which God does this.
In the film, the young Moses is a successful military commander who defeats a Nubian army and makes the Ethiopians allies of Egypt. This is sourced in Flavius Josephus but isn't in the Bible.
In Exodus 2:11-12, Moses "looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian and hid him in the sand." No such caution in the film: Moses jumps right in to fight the Egyptian. Instead of sensibly fleeing to Midian immediately, as he does in the Bible, he stays in Egypt and is arrested and exiled.
The movie adds a subplot about Joshua coming to Moses to beseech him to return to Egypt to free the Israelites.
In the Bible, Moses complains to the Lord that he is slow of speech, and of a slow tongue; in the film he only says "what words can I speak that they will heed?" DeMille considered having Moses stammer slightly, but Heston couldn't do it, and settled for speaking very slowly. Modern midrash asserts the relevance of the phrase "divine apostasia," which rehabilitates the term "apostasia" from its heretical or pejorative sense by defining it as an inability to articulate given the tools (or limitations rather) of language. This sense of the term apostasia asserts the moral humility and/or wisdom of silence or hesitance applied to speech and writing.
The film shows four of the Plagues of Egypt: Blood, Hail, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn, omitting the rest. DeMille could not figure out a way to enact the plagues of frogs, flies and so on, without it coming out as unintentionally humorous.
Pharaoh may have drowned with his army in Exodus 15:19 (it is unclear; and if so, he wasn't Rameses II). In the movie, he prudently stays in the rear and witnesses the parting of the waters.
In Exodus, the Israelites, led by Miriam, sing and dance to celebrate the death of Pharaoh and the Egyptian army. In the film, they stand still in stunned silence.
In the Bible, the reception of the Ten Commandments began as a national revelation, as opposed to the private one depicted in the DeMille film.
The story of Korah and his rebellion, which occurs much later in the Bible narrative, is conflated with that of the Golden Calf in the film. Korah himself is omitted, replaced with Dathan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ten...from_the_Bible

Woodrow

04-16-2007, 10:12 PM

Reminder:

This thread is question and answer only. Questions asked about Judaism are to be answered by Lavikor and rebelishaulman only.

Grace Seeker

04-16-2007, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by rebelishaulman

I would not know. That would be up to G-d. However, when you are reincarnated into an animal that means that this specifically occured because the purpose of you returning to earth was very minor, so you did not need to form major relationships, and the task may have been more on intention then action since I believe you are completly aware that animals can think and do make day to day choices. Apes in the jungle live very emotional lives. They have free will and must make choices as well. Since G-d will judge us based on our intentions a lot, like what we meant to do during a certain moment, animals can still accomplish nessesary tasks.

Here are some sites on basic Judaism and "Giglgul" which means cycle or reincarnation:

http://www.askmoses.com/
www.aish.com
www.chabad.org
http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=215&o=190
http://www.aish.com/literacy/concept..._Tradition.asp
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...carnation.html

A soul descends to this world from “beneath the throne of glory”—a place much higher than the highest angels—to accomplish her mission in this physical world. After her allotted time, the soul returns to be judged. She may need to be cleansed in gehinom. But eventually, she is able to reap her reward, which is to experience the Divine light that she generated through all her good deeds. But usually the entire mission of that soul does not get accomplished in a single lifetime. There may also be some mess that needs to be fixed up, left over from a previous life. So that aspect of the soul that still needs completion must return. And so, souls return again and again, until their job is complete. By now, almost all souls that come here are returnees.

Huh? I had never heard that Jews believe in re-incarnation before?

How widespread is this belief? Has it always been part of Judaism, or is it a more recently introduced thought? It all sounds more Hindu than Jewish to me.

Grace Seeker

04-16-2007, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by rebelishaulman

Even though Moshe learned from Hashem for 40 days and nights, the entire nation heard Hashem say Anochi, lo yihiyeh lechah.

Can you translate that last phrase please, or give me the verse reference? My own quick re-reading of Exodus has Moses going up and down Mt. Sinai to receive G-d's revelation and pass it on to the nation. I have missed where G-d spoke to the entire nation.

Grace Seeker

04-16-2007, 11:49 PM

Yes, I have read those passages. The way I read it is that Moses talks with G-d on Mt. Sinai, but the people say that they do not want to listen to G-d themselves, that they just want Moses to speak to G-d and then to tell them what G-d has to say. And based on G-d's subsequent statements to Moses, "tell the Israelites this:", it appears that G-d indeeds allows for it to proceed in that manner.

Can you (or anyone), please, explain in more detail why it is that you think G-d is speaking to the whole nation.

lavikor201

04-17-2007, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Please read the large article below. Thanks. :)

Originally Posted by King David

Yes rebbe please show me where in the Tanach we can find reincarnation?

It has nothing to do with the original Judaisme but some medieval pagan influence that entered part of judaisme.

PS: remember your undercover cop (from your other post)http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...se-hashem.html

Find me where it tells us to fast on Yom Kippur! It does not, only telling us to "inflict" ourselves. Why not cut yourself instead David? Because the Oral Law is nessesary to complete and explain the Written Law.

Here you go:

By Rabbi Ariel Bar Tzadok

“So that you may know that not on bread alone does a man live, but on all that comes forth from the Mouth of HaShem does a man live.” (Dev. 8:3)

Parashat Ekev is often used by the holy Mekubalim to explain the secret Torah teachingsabout reincarnation. In light of recent statements made by HaRav HaGaon Ovadiah Yosef regarding reincarnation, I thought it wise to address the subject in brief. Yet, first a short introduction about Sitrei Torah (the secrets of Torah) in general is appropriate. All Poskim (Halakhic authorities) agree that the secrets (sodot) of the Torah were revealed by G-d at Mt. Sinai along with the other three methods of Torah understanding, pshat (simplicity), remez (implications) and drash (moralisms). Together these four are referred to throughout Torah literature as the PaRDeS. The validity and authenticity of the Sitrei Torah (secrets of Torah) is undeniable in all Torah faithful (Orthodox) communities. It is widely said by many Poskim, Ashkenazi and Sephardi alike, that one who denies the authenticity of the Sitrei Torah is as one who denies the entire Torah. Such a denier is to be considered an outcast. See our KosherTorah essay on this subject that documents all the opinions,

http://www.koshertorah.com/Kabbalah_in_Halakha.pdf.

In the past century, secular skeptics have arisen who have dared to cast aspersions on the holy teachings of the Sitrei Torah. These secular so-called scholars claim that there are no authentic ancient references to anything mystical in Judaism. Yet, the scholarly evidence is so overwhelmingly against their foolish viewpoints that their so-called scholarly objections are revealed for what they are - secular anti-religious prejudice. The works of secular anti-religious so-called scholars such as Gershom Sholem of Hebrew University are best sent to the refuse heap than to a library. Everything that that man has written is full of errors and his personal prejudices. Sholem has done horrible damage to the holiness of the mystical traditions of Judaism. Barukh HaShem, Hebrew University has other scholars today who are much more professional and respectful of Torah.

Over the centuries, there have even been one or two Rabbis who have compromised their souls by speaking out against the authenticity of holy Sitrei Torah. If you wish, try to find out who they are or what they taught and you will have to search rather deep. The Poskim have agreed to blot out their names and their false teachings from the collectiveteachings of Israel. One of the sacred teachings of the Sitrei Torah is called Torat HaGilgul (the Torah of reincarnation). This set of teachings was known throughout Biblical times and subtlehints are made to it throughout the TaNaKh (Bible) and all later Torah literature. So widespread was the knowledge about Torat HaGilgul that reference to it is to be found even among the Dead Sea Scrolls. Christians may find it objectionable, but even their religion originally believed in reincarnation and reference to it is subtly made in their Avon Gilyon (Christian Bible).

In our many sins and in fulfillment of prophecy, one of the punishments decreed upon Israel from Heaven, after the destruction of the Temple, was that there would be a famine for the word of HaShem. After over a thousand years of the mystical teachings being widespread, the Divine edict was for them to be concealed for over a thousand years. Thus from a period soon after the writing of the Mishna by Rabbi Yehudah HaNasi, the sacred teachings of mystical Torah were removed from any type of publicexposure.

The holy Zohar, which records the teachings of Rabbi Shimon Bar Yohai some fifty years after the Temple’s destruction was included in this edict. The Zoharicwritings were only to be edited and published in Spain in 1290. During the time of the formations of both the Yerushalmi and Bavli Talmuds, the mysticalteachings of Torah became known as the Sitrei (secrets of) Torah. Access to them was limited to only those small groups who were entrusted to safeguard them throughout the centuries. During this time, all Rabbinic literature, especially the Talmud Bavli, makes numerous hints to these secrets. Indeed, to this day, all the secrets of the Torah can be found in the dapim (pages) of the Talmud Bavli – if one knows how to break the secret codes to unravel them. Such holy Rabbanim as HaRav Yitzhak Haver and HaRav Yosef Haim have written works revealing only the smallest sample of mystical Talmud. Indeed, the Talmud Bavli is the greatest of all mystical (Kabbalistic) texts, greater than even the Zohar. Yet to the majority, the mystical teachings of Talmud Bavli (and Torah in general), to this day,remain an enigma and a mystery. During the time of the edict of silence many Rabbanim overtly avoided any discussion ofthe Sitrei Torah. RaMBaM is the case in point. Long championed as the father of rationalism (and thus the antagonist of mysticism) RaMBaM himself was very well aware of the secrets of the Torah. RaMBaM used Greek philosophy as his vessel to explain the secrets of the Torah in a permissible manner in his work, the Moreh Nebukhim (The Guide to the Perplexed).

This is evident from the writings of Rabbi Avraham Abulafia. RaMBaM’s mystical knowledge also is evident in his Hilkhot Yesodei Torah (the laws of the Foundations of Torah). Indeed, in this work, RaMBaM revealed knowledge about the 10 Angelic orders that has no other source in Torah literature other than in the holyZohar, a work that was not to be published for another 50 years. Our holy Rabbis havealways known how to keep a secret and at the same time let us know that indeed there was a secret being kept. Reference our KosherTorah.com essay on RaMBaM and the Kabbalah at

http://www.koshertorah.com/PDF/rambam.pdf.

With regards to reincarnation, there is a statement made in the writings of HaRav Saadiah Gaon (some three hundred years before RaMBaM) denying its legitimacy. Some individuals have latched onto this statement to condemn Torat HaGilgul. Yet, in my opinion, there is very good reason why he wrote what he did, although he himself knew otherwise. First, as leader of the Jewish nation under Moslem rule, HaRav Saadiah Gaon would have endangered the lives of all Jews if he publicly embraced a mystical teaching which the Moslem authorities had branded as apostate (as did Christian Europe).

Second, there was no reason to defend this mystical teaching at that time because it was under a ban of secrecy. HaRav Saadiah Gaon couldn’t have spoken about it in public even if he wanted to. We have many of HaRav Saadiah Gaon’s mystical writings. History clearlydocuments his mastery of Torah mysticism. Therefore, his words denying the legitimacyof reincarnation have to be understood with the context of his times and his place. Now let us explain in brief the teachings of reincarnation based upon the teachings found in Sha’ar HaMitzvot, Parashat Ekev and other writings of the Ari’zal, as well as from Sefer Minhat Yehuda of Rabbi Yehuda Fatiya. On KosherTorah.com we have the following essays on this topic that will surely interestyou: “The Secrets of Reincarnation”

(http://www.koshertorah.com/gilgul.html) and “The Teachings of Rabbi Yehuda Fatiya” (http://www.koshertorah.com/fatiyah.pdf).

HaShem created in his universe an infinite numbers of souls, referred to prior to theiroriginal descent into this world as “nitzotzei kedusha” (sparks of holiness). As explained in the Ari’zal’s lectures on the topics of the “Shattering of the Vessels” and “The Fall of the Primordial Kings” many of these sparks of holiness fell from their lofty heights in holiness and descended into the pits of the netherworlds. All fallen souls are given the opportunity rise again to their original heights of holiness and to be stand before their Creator. Yet, this time, they will have earned their place and can, therefore, never fall again. Yet, in order to achieve this lofty status, souls have to work hard in order to earn it. HaShem created His universe to operate under the forces of good and evil, reward andpunishment, blessing and curse. When we obey HaShem’s Will we contribute to the evolution of the universe. When we (souls) obey HaShem’s commandments in theTorah, we are rewarded with good and blessings. We ascend the ladder of holiness.Unfortunately, the opposite is also true. When a soul violates HaShem’s mitzvot, instead of reward there is punishment, instead of good there is evil.

That soul descends further into the pit. When a soul incarnates as a human being, even more so a Jew, it is given the opportunity to greatly enhance its spiritual stature. If the Gentile soul fully observes the Sheva Mitzvot D’benei Noah (seven universal laws), then the soul graduates from that level and is promoted to the next level. HaShem sends the soul back to Earth as a Jew. In this way the soul can perform even more mitzvot and rise to even higher levels. Such was the case of Eliezer, the servant of Avraham Avinu. During the days of Avraham, Eliezer was a Caananite. Yet, due to his righteousness, he merited to be reincarnated, in the days of Moshe Rabbeynu, as a member of the tribe of Yehuda. Eliezer reincarnated as Caleb Ben Yefuneh. His soul later incarnated higher and higher until he was eventually a Kohen Gadol (Zecharia, the High Priest) and years later a Master Kabbalist (Rabbi Moshe Cordevero). (Reference Sha’ar HaPesukim of the Ari’zal, I have this material available in translation in a recorded lesson entitled, “The Reincarnations of Eliezer, Servant of Abraham”available in our KosherTorah online store, item #M0015). Alas, in our many sins, just as souls can evolve upward in Kedusha (holiness) so can they descend into tumah (uncleanness). When this occurs, HaShem can punish a human soul by incarnating it into a non-human form. Indeed, a human soul can incarnate into anything that HaShem has created. HaShem has placed fallen human souls into animals of all kinds, into plants and even into rocks, water, sand and dirt. Each of these places is to act as a prison for the soul, each in accordance to the sins it performed. The fallen soul is destined by Divine edict to stay trapped in its non-human form with all its memories of being human for a specified amount of time. It is said that this form of punishment is most hard to bear and the most painful punishment of all. Yet, although HaShem is a G-d of Justice, He is also a merciful and compassionate G-d. He has given into the hands of the righteous souls the opportunity to redeem the souls of the fallen sinners. The righteous do this by performing a basic down to earth mitzvah of dailyeating and saying a Berakha (blessing) over one’s food. Indeed, the reason why Berakhot (blessings) were ordained to be said in precise ritual fashion (Barukh Atah HaShem Elokeynu Melekh HaOlam etc…) is because the words contain a secret code that is used to help elevate fallen souls that are entrapped in the foods that we eat. Human souls are often reincarnated into animals. Of these, kosher animals arepurchased by Jews, slaughtered according to Torah Law and eaten as part of a seudat mitzvah (festive meal). We have stories told about many Rabbanim who recognized within an animal the soul of a fallen Jew, who would then purchase the animal for kosher slaughter. The holy Rabbanim saw with Divine inspiration that such a fate was the destined rectification for the fallen soul. Indeed, once the animal is kosher slaughtered and iseaten with appropriate blessings before and after, the soul therein finds rest in the Heavenly spheres. However, this only occurs when the officiating Rav knows the propermeditations to elevate the soul along its journey. So important is the eating of meat as a spiritual ritual of soul rectification that the Gemara has taught that an Am HaAretz (an unlearned individual) is forbidden to eat meat. The underlying secret message in the Gemara is that the mere eating of meat for the sake of physical pleasure does not release the souls incarnated within. Indeed, one who eats for mere physical pleasure instead of for spiritual reasons can end up harming souls, not helping them. The penalty for such a spiritual blemish is midah k’neged midah (measure for measure).

Guess who gets reincarnated as a cow next time? Human souls, including Jews can also reincarnate in any other form of matter. A soul can return in a piece of fruit or in a potato, in a glass of water or in a piece of pizza.Therefore, it is incumbent upon us that when we eat we perform the mitzvah of pidyon shibuyim (redemption of captives). We must recite our berakhot with full intention and also keep in mind, if not verbally state the following small prayer – “HaShem, may it be Your Will that any souls incarnated in the food that I am about to eat be rectified and elevated to their holy source above.” In this way we assist in redeeming fallen souls and keep ourselves away from being blemished. The fallen soul becomes absorbed into the one eating. When that one peforms a mitzvah using the strength gaining from the food eaten, the fallen soul is transformed into the mitzvah and thus ascends above along with it. The soul has now been elevated.Nonetheless, while it has been cleansed of specific previous sins, it still has no merits to speak of. Thus, HaShem allows the soul to return to Earth to acquire for itself merit by the performance of mitzvot. However, if the soul has any left-over judgement still hanging over it from other previouslives, then HaShem will send to the soul trials and travails in its lifetime until the Heavenly slate has been cleared. Thus, even if a soul is perfectly righteous in thislifetime, such as Job, bad things can still happen to it, to purify it of previous sins. This isthe secret of why the righteous suffer. (Job was the reincarnation of the Terah, the father of Avraham Avinu. Terah served idols. Job was punished for what he did asTerah, although as Job he was guiltless. Nonetheless, once his spiritual account was settled G-d again blessed him in full). It was in reference to this that HaRav Ovadiah Yosef made mention, when his words were purposely misinterpreted by a hostile secular Israeli media many years ago with a remark about why so many suffered during the Holocaust. Thus, our parasha teaches us, “man does not live by bread alone, but on all that comesforth from the Mouth of HaShem.” What comes forth from the “Mouth of HaShem” is therectification of souls. These accompany our physical food. Thus, we must elevate ourphysical eating to being a spiritual act. Indeed, the Ben Ish Hai and others have full orders of learning and mystical prayers to be recited at meal times. We must always remember that our dinner tables are altars to HaShem and our mealsare like sacrifices to Him. If we keep this in mind as we eat, we elevate fallen soulsincarnate in our food and we elevate our own souls as well.

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Please see below.

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

[Moses told the Israelites]: 'Only beware for yourself and greatly beware for your soul, lest you forget the things that your eyes have beheld. Do not remove this memory from your heart all the days of your life. Teach your children and your children's children about the day that you stood before the L-rd your G-d at Horev [Mount Sinai]...

G-d spoke to you from the midst of the fire, you were hearing the sound of words, but you were not seeing a form, only a sound. He told you of His covenant, instructing you to keep the Ten Commandments, and He inscribed them on two stone tablets.' (Deut.4:9-13)

Originally Posted by King David

He woodrow why cant I answer questions about my faith?
Whay do you delete the answer?

I cant speek about judaisme i cant speek about Islam what can I talk about?

Your answers do not coincide with the answers of mainstream Judaism. They are your opinions, and I you are welcome to have them, however, I ask you to find one Jewish source, that says that Mohammad was actually a prophet and the Quran a book for the gentiles of the earth.

lavikor201

04-17-2007, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by King David

but the Oral law is not the whole Talmud only part of it. The Reincarnation isnt found in Oral law. But actually only in Kabbalah that isnt even part of the Talmud there was at the Time of Maimonides.

Read this:

All of Hashem’s actions in this world are systematic and work along certain patterns that He created. The study of these patterns and this system, and how they connect our world and Hashem, is Kabbalah. It has zero to do with witchcraft.

There are two reasons, why only very advanced, very righteous, Torah scholars may learn Kabbalah. If anyone else tries to, first, it is wrong, and two, it won’t work.

All of Torah describes the will of G-d. This means that someone who learns Torah becomes familiar with who Hashem is. The more Torah you learn, the more you “recognize He Who created the world” (Sifri Devarim 6:7).

Now let’s say you have acquaintances who know you. But they only know the outside of you. Only your friends you let into the “inside” of you. But not all the way. Maybe there’s someone very special in your life that knows the real inside of you. Someone who has special access to really deep inside of you. Only this special person you let in there.

Same thing with the Torah. The goyim know Hashem as acquaintances or friends, so Hashem let’s them know Torah shebiksav (the Written Torah). But that’s as far as they can go.

We Jews are the special people to Hashem, we have that special relationship with Him that he allows us to know the inside of Him, what He is really like; what He really wants; what he really cares about. Only we can go there, because we are the special people in His “life”.

This inside of Hashem is called Torah shebal peh (the Oral Torah – the Talmud and Midrashim). Only Jews are privy to this special part of Hashem. A goy who learns Torah shebal peh commits a capital sin! Because he has no right to invade Hashem’s privacy like that. Only Jews, who are in a special relationship with Hashem, can go there.

But then, maybe there’s a part of you that’s so deep and so private, that not even that special person in your life knows that part of you. Maybe you yourself don’t even know that part of you. This is the inside of the inside. The deepest most private parts of your personality. Even your most special people you maybe won’t let in there.

That’s the Kabbalah. It’s the inside of the inside of Hashem’s Will. Even though he lets us in to the Oral Torah part of Him because we have that special relationship with Him, but to go to the inside of the inside – the Kabbalah – even Jews cannot go. For that, you have to have an especially special relationship with Him; otherwise it’s terribly inappropriate for you to peek so deep into the Will of Hashem. This place is reserved only for the special of the special. The great Tzadikim, the great Talmidei Chachamim.

That’s first.

Second, even if you were to learn Kabbalah, you would not be successful unless you are an advanced Torah scholar.

Kabbalah is like sunglasses.

Yes, sunglasses. Sunglasses let you look at the sun, but they distort the image. The sun looks green, less shiny, and altogether different than it is in reality.

So if you look at the sun with your sunglasses, but you don’t understand intellectually what the sun looks like, you will go away with a totally wrong idea of what the sun looks like.

So too the Kabbalah. It allows you to see places that otherwise would shine too bright for you to look at, but the image you will get is distorted. You therefore need the intellectual knowledge of advanced Shas and Poskim (Talmud and Halachah) so that when you do learn Kabbalah, you will get the proper impressions.

---

Kabalah is, and always was, part of Torah. It is one of the "sod" part of the 4 parts of Torah, i.e. Pardes. Because only people who reached a certain level should learn it, it was restricted throughout the generations to mouth-to-mouth tradition from established mentor to worthy disciple.

From the earliest times, those worthy have learned Kabalah - after all, it is part of Torah. But you can't ask to find a proportionate sample of it in the Gemora - the Gemora was designed for a more inclusive audience. Not everything Chazal learned or said or did is in the Gemora. Don't think the Gemara is an accurate representation of Chazal's activities. Medrash exists too, and so did Kabalah. The Gemora has a specific purpose, and because something is not there does not mean it didn't exist.

As the Gemora (Pesachim 119a) learns from a posuk in Yeshaya:

"This refers to someone who conceals the things that Hashem concealed. And what are these things? The secrets of the Torah."

And in Gemora Chagiga (13a): Rav Ami said, we do not give the secrets of the Torah to anyone who does not have these five qualifications..."

These "secrets of the Torah" (sisrei torah) are Kabalah.

As far as Hashkafa and Neshama, etc, that as always dealt with, in Medrashim. It was made into Seforim by various authors as time went by for the same reason most seforim are made - there was a need for them.

---

The Rambam did not use Kabbalah in his writings (although the Migdal Oz quotes a letter from the Rambam written in his later years that says he discovered Kabbalah and he regrets many things that he said previously about it), and he was also never saw the Zohar. He based his writings on philosophy, not Kabbalah.

Nevertheless, there is a school of Kabbalists - the Yismach Moshe and his line - that use the Rambam's writings to explain Kabbalistic concepts, and vice versa. (A computer search for Moreh Nevuchim quoted in Chasidishe seforim will show it very rarely -usually not quoted at all, a couple of times in Kedushas Levi, but all over the Yismach Moshe.)

The Satmar Rebbe ZTL, a descendant of the Yismach Moshe writes that even though the Rambam did not have Kabblaah, because he was on such a high level to know the truth, because of his greatness, he came to truths on his own that are Kablistic concepts; and that the Rambam - get this - did not contradict the Kabbalah at all.

(As far as sheidim, they are all over shas. But Rabbeinu Avrohom, his son, quoted by Rav Yonason Shteif ZTL at the beginning of Brachos - says that the Rambam really did believe in sheidim and statements otherwise were inserted by others.)

So while it is theoretically possible for any Rishon to base his statements on a metzius that is later shown to not be the case, the words of the rishonim can be interpreted on all levels of PaRdES (pshat, remez, drush, and sod), and it is fine to interpret their words in a way that fits in with reality.

---

The Zohar was indeed written by Rav Shimon bar Yochai, as confirmed by all our Torah experts, including the Arizal, who was the greatest expert in Kabbalah ever. The Gra, too, as well as all other experts in this topic agree that the Zohar is for real. It is quoted by the Bais Yosef in Ch. 140, and by the Ramah in Shulchan Aruch in a number of places. It is also quoted countless times in the Poskim, thorughout the generations. (There was one Rav who questioned the authenticity of the Zohar, but his opinion has been dismissed as an overreaction to the Shabse Tzvi debacle, because of the above reasons, plus the fact that he had not one shred of evidence to back up his position).

We do not learn Kabbalah because it is the "inner sphere", but it is more than 100% legitimate. There is no Torah authority after the above authenticating authorities who have chas v'sholom rejected the Zohar. The whole idea is nonsensical, and a product of non-religious, anti-Torah elements.

Rav Yaakov Emden held that parts of the Zohar were written by the "students and students' students" of Rav Shimon bar Yochai without a doubt, but it is as if Rav Shimon bar Yochai himself wrote it" (M'tpchas Sforim I p.31).

This is not the issue. The issue is whether the Zohar was "written centuries later", which alludes to the old, disproven opinion of Gershom Sholem, a heretic who knew not much about Judaism, despite - or actually, in line with - his title of "Professor of Kabbalah" at Hebrew University.

This man decided, about 60 years ago, that that he understood Kabbalah better than the Arizal, the Ramak, and the other masters, and that really Kabblah is not part of Torah but rather an alien outgrowth from Gnosticism and philosophy.

This is not, c"v, the view of Rav Yaakov Emden, the Chasam Sofer, or any other clear headed Jew. R. Yaakov Emden writes about the Zohar:

"Holy is the Sefer HaZohar ... cholilah to question it! The worthy reader will see in it holy light and the path to righteousness ... " (ibid, intro.)

Said R. Yaakov Emden, "The Seforim that I authored are full of Kabblah, based on the Zohar" (Adus B'Yaakov p. 21)

While it is true that Rav Yaakov Emden did on occasion change the text of the Zohar to conform to what he held was the original, or remove some later insertions - and it should be mentioned that even this opinion of his was rejected by the overwhelming majority of scholars - he writes, "Cholilah that I should erase even one letter from the Zohar except where it is absolutely necessary" (MS I p.31). (See also Teshuvos Teshuva M'Ahava I:13, and I:26).

So out of touch was this G. Sholem, and that he even went on a campaign to publicize his "discovery" that Rav Yonason Eyebuschitz ZT"L was a closet follower of Shabse Tzvi! Of course, Rav Yonason was accused of that in his day by Rav Yaakov Emden, but the accusation was subsequently found to be a total mistake. But the fact that the Vilna Gaon himself found only pure Torah in Rav Yonason's Kabalistic writings did not impress Sholem. I guess it was because The Gra was did not have a PhD from Hebrew U in Kabalah.

Of course, all serious scholars at that time such as Rabbi Reuven Margolis ZT"L did a chainsaw massacre on Sholem's "discovery", exposing it for nothing more than ignorance and distortions.

Sholem latched on to a statement of Rav Yonason quoting "Drush Tanini" regarding the Kabalistic concept of "the holy nachash" and that Moshiach is Gemtria "nachash", which, the professor of Kabblaah said, is obviously referring to a work of Noson Ha'azasi, the notorious student of Shabse Tzvi.

Of course, Rav Margolis pointed out that in the Zohar (Bo) there is a "Drush Taninim" and that is what Rav Yonason was referring to.

Sholem insisted that his opposition doesn’t know what they are talking about, and "anyone who understands the Zohar knows that this is an open lie, that we do not even have to deal with".

He wrote: "Every single commentary on the Zohar without exception agrees with me".

This is what happens when someone tries to learn Kabbalah from the printed word without a mentor, thus misunderstanding everything he sees.

Well, the professor, of course, turned out to be wrong. The Kabbalistic explanation of Rav Yonason Eyebu****z ZT"L turned up --- guess where? -- in the commentary of Rav Yaaov Emden on that very Zohar!

Kind of a Kiddush Hashem, when something like that happens. (See Zaharei Yaavetz p.125 - 132 for details)

Even the phony secular pseudo-Kabbalists have begun to give up on Sholem's ideas. Moshe Idel, "Professor of Jewish thought" (sic) in Hebrew U (he has a "PhD in Kabbalah" (sic). I am not kidding) has proven Sholem wrong. In his "Kabblah, New Perspectives" (SIC!) he shows that Kabalah is really ancient and that the Gnostics actually were influenced by Kabbalah, not vice versa.

Well, duh. At least someone takes Sholem seriously enough to bother disproving him.

No, sorry, all so-called "scholarship" trying to discredit Kabbalah has already been discredited, and if you present any particular tidbit of such "scholarship" I will show you why it doesn’t work.

Or perhaps you can find a "Professor of Truth" somewhere in Hebrew U that can explain it.

Rav Yaakov Emden surely does dispute that. He said clearly that the Zohar was written by the students etc. of Rav Shimon bar Yochai - please see above. It is not necessary for him to repeat that.

The Arizal and the GRA, as well as other authorities of that caliber accepted the authorship of the Zohar as RSHB"I, or at the very most, with some parts by the students etc. But its authority as a Talmudic source was undisputed among the Torah authorities.

There is also no reason to oppose the Minhagim or Halachos from the Zohar. The Gemora about Eliyahu Hanavi is talking about Eliyahu making a gezeirah against a Minhag (see Meiri ad loc). Since we had a minhag to do chalitzah with a sandal, we will not accept his gezeirah. But if he were to come and tell us we were wrong, we would have to contend with his position with due Halachic process. Another interpretation is that the Gemora's ruling in the theoretical case of Eliyahu saying not to use a sandal for Chalitzah is because he has no halachic reasoning to back up his position. In other words, even if Eliyahu tells us something halachicly invalid, we should not listen. But if he would have the reasoning to show us we were wrong then we would indeed listen.

Besides, the Zohar may disagree with the Gemara regarding the statement about Eliyahu hanavi, the same as it can argue with any other part. But it is not at all necessary to make such a dispute. Following the Zohar where appropriate is not a contradiction to what the Gemora says.

That Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochaii didn’t write the Zohar meaning the all the exact words are not written by him is pretty clear - and yes, you don’t need to swear to that. The Zohar was clearly edited by students of RSHBI, or even Geonim (the Steipler said that). Like the Mishna was edited by R"Y Hanasi.

That doesn’t mean at all that it doesn’t have the authority of RSHBI any more than the fact that the Mishna was edited means c"v it doesn’t represent the opinions of the Tannaim quoted there.

As far as the disproofs of Gershom Sholem, my point is that since there is a clear tradition and expert testimony to the authoritativeness of the Zohar, the onus would lie on those who dispute that. Once their claims are disproven, the default value so to speak of this issue is the traditional one.

The Zohar was not widely publicized, and not printed, and went lost in the days of the Tannaim. It was "found" later on - some say the Ramban found it.

The Gemora is not kol hatorah kulah, though it is the most authoritative part of it. The Rishonim that rejected gilgulim did so not because it says in the Gemora that gilgulim do not exist but rather for the lack of evidence that it does exist, together with their own understanding. There is no disagreement here between the Mishnah and the Zohar.

The idea that the Zohar was written by Moshe DeLeon comes form the maskilim. It has long been disproved, discredited, and discarded. Please do a search for his name on this site where the proofs against those ignorami are discussed.

It’s not only the Zohar that accepts gilgullim - it is every Torah authority unanimously that ever discussed the issue since the Zohar was uncovered. That goes all the way form the Rishonim to the Arizal to the GRA down.

The idea that Gilgulim are fiction is not accepted at all, and we attribute such statements in Rav Sadiah Gaon to the fact that he did not have the benefit of the Zohar. Nobody, since the Zohar was revealed, agrees with it.

lavikor201

04-18-2007, 10:09 AM

Do you actually still studie Tanach? (all those manwritten books must take a lot of precious time away):

Right, because it is interpreted “afflict” to mean de-emphasizing the body’s needs in five areas: bathing; using creams, oils, perfumes or other skin accessories; wearing leather shoes; sexual relations; and eating and drinking.

So can you find me in the Tanakh where all these are as well with the word afflict? I would be very impressed if you could.

I assume now that your a Karaite.

Some things in the Talmud are genuine Tanach studies. But some are just fabrications!!!

Alright so your a Karaite. An ignoramus who refuses to believe the Oral Law.

Find me one scholar that rejects the Gemara. Please... I would love to hear about him.

lavikor201

04-18-2007, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by King David

Im happy you posted this:

It proves that the Zohar was written By Shimon bar Yochai when he fled with his son to the cave next to pekiin (the druze village druze believe in reincarnation) because of fear of being put to death by Romans becausewhat he previously said about them.(suddenly after writing such pagan things he was allowed not to be killed) That All great sages had no Knowledge of this. Because simmon bar yochai (people thaught at that time he was the masciah (pha)) wrote it. It is a studie and thought that has been launched by him and that wasnt before.

Now your post aknowledges that it has been written by a man in the 2nd century Ce so it can be wrong.

Didn't read this did you:

"We do not learn Kabbalah because it is the "inner sphere", but it is more than 100% legitimate. There is no Torah authority after the above authenticating authorities who have chas v'sholom rejected the Zohar. The whole idea is nonsensical, and a product of non-religious, anti-Torah elements."

Do you actually still studie Tanach? (all those manwritten books must take a lot of precious time away):

Since your a Karaite can you give me the Karaite opinion this?

Many people these days say that the Rabbi's have influenced Judaism to much. They want to follow the Torah and not made up rabbinical stuff right? Well following the Rabbi's is following the Torah:

Deuteronomy 17:8-12 from the Artscroll Stone edition:

17:8 If a matter of judgment is hidden from you, between blood and blood, between verdict and verdict, between plague and plague, matters of dispute in your cities - you shall rise up and ascend to the place that Hashem, your G-d, shall choose.
17:9 You shall come to the Kohanim, the Levites, and to the judge who will be in those days; you shall inquire and they will tell you the word of judgment.
17:10 You shall do according to the word that they will tell you, from that place that Hashem will choose, and you shall be careful to do according to everything that they will teach you.
17:11 According to the teaching that they will teach you and according to the judgment that they will say to you, shall you do; you shall not deviate from the word that they will tell you, right or left.
17:12 And the man that will act with willfulness, not listening to the Kohen who stands there to serve Hashem, your G-d, or to the judge, that man shall die and you shall destroy the evil from Israel.

I challenge you to find me one REPUTABLE Torah scholor who rejects the Gemora, and Kabbalah. I have explained why The Sadia Gaon did so already. I am just trying a find a minority opinion for you right now.

Philosopher

04-18-2007, 07:10 PM

Is Jewish understanding of the Old Testament the same as the Christian understanding of it?

Philosopher

04-18-2007, 07:11 PM

What is the difference between a Sephardi and a Hassidic Jew?

lavikor201

04-18-2007, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by Philosopher

Is Jewish understanding of the Old Testament the same as the Christian understanding of it?

No, the Christians first believe that there are a few extra books of the Tanakh which we as Jews do not recognize. Second, they do not recognize the Oral Tradition of Judaism which explains the Torah (The Torah refers to the Oral Tradition in its text). Third, the Christian translation is a hideous translation which is of course translated to make Jesus seem like the Messiah which the text clearly shows otherwise.

What is the difference between a Sephardi and a Hassidic Jew?

Sephardic Jews are either Mizrachi (me) who are Arab Jews, or regular Sephards from Spain, Porutgaul and the area in africa south of spain. Hasidim are gnerally from Europe, although anyone can be a hassid, and there philsphy is that instead of studying the Torah and learning all day, it is more productive to completete all the laws, and show pure love of G-d. They are very ultra orthodox and follow the laws meticulously. In theory, a Spehardic Jew could follow the hasidic way of following the Torah with happiness and energy, but the movement began in europe, and ot a huge amount of sephardim are a part of it.

Philosopher

04-18-2007, 07:14 PM

Third, the Christian translation is a hideous translation which is of course translated to make Jesus seem like the Messiah which the text clearly shows otherwise.

Yes, there was a verse in the King James's version talking about unicorns. It was a gross mistranslation of the Hebrew text.

Grace Seeker

04-18-2007, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by Philosopher
Is Jewish understanding of the Old Testament the same as the Christian understanding of it?

Originally Posted by lavikor201

No, the Christians first believe that there are a few extra books of the Tanakh which we as Jews do not recognize.

This is not a true statement. It is true that the Catholic Church recognizes some books which the Jews do not recognize. These are called collectively the Dueterocanon by Catholics. Protestants do not recognize these books any more than Jews do. The list of books recognized by Protestants is:

Genesis - Bereish ith (typed with a space only because the system reads the middle part of the word as inappropriate language)
Exodus - Shemoth
Leviticus - Vayiqra
Numbers - Bamidbar
Deuteronomy - Devarim
(These first 5 books are the Torah.)

Joshua - Yehoshua
Judges - Shoftim
Ruth - Ruth
1 Samuel - Shmuel
2 Samuel - (also Shmuel)
1 Kings - Melakhim
2 Kings - (also Melakhim)
1 Chronicles - Divrei Ha-Yamim
2 Chronicles - (also Divrei Ha-Yamim)
Ezra - Ezra & Nechemyah (treated as one book, not two)
Nehemiah - (also Ezra & Nechemyah)
Esther - Esther
Job - Iyov
Psalms - Tehillim
Proverbs - Mishlei
Ecclesiastes - Qoheleth
Song of Songs - Shir Ha-Shirim
Isaiah - Yeshayah
Jeremiah - Yirmyah
Lamentations - Eikhah
Ezekiel - Yechezqel
Daniel - Daniel

(The final 12 are each a separate book in the Protestant Bible, but are treated as one book of "The Twelve" in the Tanakh.)
Hosea - Hoshea
Joel - Yoel
Amos - Amos
Obadiah - Ovadyah
Jonah - Yonah
Micah - Mikhah
Nahum - Nachum
Habakkuk - Chavaqquq
Zephaniah - Tzefanyah
Haggai - Chaggai
Zechariah - Zekharyah
Malachi - Malakhi

While the order is different than in the Tanakh and we have some boodk, like Samuel, divided into two books -- a 1st and 2nd Samuel, instead of just of just one larger book -- and we have listed the minor prophets by their individual book, rather than as one larger book containing them all together; I don't think you will find anything in the Protestant canon that is not in the Tanakh, nor anything in the written Tanakh that is not in the Protestant canon. If I am wrong I am willing to be corrected and hope that you will do so. If I am right, I would encourage you to stick to answering questions about Judaism and not Christianity.

Second, they do not recognize the Oral Tradition of Judaism which explains the Torah (The Torah refers to the Oral Tradition in its text).

True.

Third, the Christian translation is a hideous translation which is of course translated to make Jesus seem like the Messiah which the text clearly shows otherwise.

False. While we do certainly interpret passages like Isaiah 53 in light of our understanding of Jesus as the Messiah, we have not created that or any other passage, they are in the Tanakh. You may disagree with our interpretation, but I will place the quality of our translation alongside any translation you wish to provide. Caveat, you must use a modern standard translation, not the King James and not a paraphrase, and I will stipulate that the NIV gave in to pressure from conservative Christians who wanted Isaiah 7:14 to be translated "virgin" rather than "young woman". But I do not think that makes for a hideous translation.

Philosopher

04-18-2007, 09:58 PM

Should a jew take the Talmud seriously? My friends say that the Tanakh is more important.

thirdwatch512

04-18-2007, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

wrong.

although Catholic Bible's have 7 extra books in them, protestant and Catholic Bible's still have more books (or chapters moreso) in our OT then Jews do in their Tanakh.

for example, malachi. a Tanakh has 3 chapters in Malachi. but an Old Testament, reguardless of protestant or Catholic, has 4 chapters!

so generally ALL Christians have more books, chapters, or something of that nature in our OT.

lavikor201

04-18-2007, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by Philosopher

Should a jew take the Talmud seriously? My friends say that the Tanakh is more important.

You cannot understand the Torah without the Talmud. Just like you cannot understand Talmus without Torah. Both go hand in hand.

so generally ALL Christians have more books, chapters, or something of that nature in our OT.

Thank you.

lavikor201

04-18-2007, 10:14 PM

You have to understand that I dony reject the Talmud for what it actually is:

A studie of the Tanach. (A good studie and sometimes a bad studie)
Oppinions of different Rabbies. (right oppinions and wrong oppinions)

Remember that this was Hashem's plan. He wanted the Rabbi's to argue it out, and He said that whatever their conclusions are, that's the Halchaha. Now it's Hashem Who made this plan, and Hashem Who decides whether people make mistakes of not, so if Hashem said that this approach works, why second guess it? The thing to remember is that it's Hashem's plan, and if He saw an imperfection in it, He can easily protect His plan from it, meaning, He can make sure that the Rabbis won't make mistakes, or He could have thought of a different plan.

But the bottom line is that Hashem said this is how the Halachah is determined. He made the plan, He knew of whatever weaknesses there may be in it, and He approves anyway. So why assume there's a problem?

Sometimes, Hashem will cause wise men to make terrible mistakes in judgment (Gittin 56b), because the generation is not worthy of having the wise decision made for them (Maharsha ad loc). On the other hand, Hashem does give Tzadikim supernatural wisdom when they are deserving. This is called Ruach HaKodesh. When Hashem said to follow the Chazal, Hashem knew every statement they will even make. If He said to follow them, that means He makes sure that following them is the right thing to do. Since we have no way of knowing that Chazal made a mistake, we are obligated to follow them regardless, and doing so means we did the Will of G-d. So even if it could be true that Chazal erred, it was the will of G-d that we should follow that error, meaning, in the end, that we are doing the right thing.

Abu Zakariya

04-18-2007, 10:17 PM

We aren't worried that the Rabbis made mistakes in the Mishnah and Gemarah. First of all, we're talking about people great enough to easily resurrect the dead.

They were infallable and had these kind of abilities? Sounds a lot like the Shiite concept of infallible Imams. Or have I misunderstood what you are saying?

Woodrow

04-18-2007, 10:51 PM

One Last Time: "This thread is not to be used for debate purposes by anyone."

Is there any part of that, that is not understandable?

lavikor201

04-18-2007, 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by King David

Now my main dissagreement is with that modern belief Of reincarnation(as rebbe said as animals).

Actually The Torah and Talmud speaks of ressurection in the Olam Haba.

Reincarnation is the decsent of the soul into a body if it has not completed it's mission the first time around. that is before moshiach comes.

Abu Zakariya

04-18-2007, 11:02 PM

The actual definition of infallibility is the incapability of making mistakes. So you're saying that they weren't infallible and could make mistakes? From what I understood, you believe that God gave them infallibility and protected them from making mistakes (I didn't say their infallibility was due to their own powers or something), but now you're saying that they weren't infallible at all? They could make mistakes? Now I'm really confused.

Grace Seeker

04-18-2007, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by thirdwatch512

With respect, I'm not sure you know what you are talking about. I listed all of the books, side-by-side. You can see that while the Protestant Bible has sub-divided some of the books of the Tanakh into more than one book that there are no additional writings. As far as the issue of chapters, again the numbering system is different.

Your example of me being wrong was to cite the book of Malachi -- in Christian Bibles have 4 chapters and there are only 3 chapters in the Jewish Tanakh -- yet, and this is very important, they are the very same verses.

The book of Malakhi (in the Jewish Tanakh) has 24 verses, while the book of Malachi (in the Christian Bible has only 18 verses). Chapter 4 of Malachi (in the Christian Bible) is identical to the final 6 verses (verses 19-24) of chapter 3 of Malakhi (of the Jewish Tanakh). Thus these two books have the same content, just with different numbering system, just as I explained previously with regard to the Jewish book of Shmuel (in the Tanakh) being divided up differently into 1 Samuel and 2 Samuel in the Christian Bible, but again the content remains the same.

Now, I admit I have not done a verse-by-verse comparison of every single line of the Tanakh with the Protestant Bible, so there may be a few cases where translators have differed as to what the original text was, but I stand by my comment that I made to Lavikor that while he was correct with respect to differences between the Catholic Old Testament and the Tanakh, that the Protestant Old Testament is in essence the same as the Jewish Tanakh.

King David

04-18-2007, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by Abu Zakariya

They were infallable and had these kind of abilities? Sounds a lot like the Shiite concept of infallible Imams. Or have I misunderstood what you are saying?

You have understood what he says! Eventhought the Talmud expresses different point of vieuw! He isnt able to see that at least one of them isnt right!

lavikor201

04-18-2007, 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by Abu Zakariya

Alright, it is tough but I will explain.

The Rabbis are not infallible. What it is, is that G-d protected them from making mistakes in the message. Just like how Muslims say that Mohammad was infallible in writing down the Quran and spreading the message of Islam, we believe G-d protected the Talmud fromm mistakes, and the fact that difference of opinion occurs in the Talmud I explained.

You have understood what he says! Eventhought the Talmud expresses different point of vieuw! He isnt able to see that at least one of them isnt right!

The post above by King David reveals how he doesn't even understand the first thing about the Talmud.

The Gemara says that both (Beit Shamai and Beit Hillel) opinions are the words of the living G-d. The French Rabbis asked: how can two opposite opinions be true? One forbids an act another permits it? They answered that when Moshe ascended to receive the Torah they showed him 49 arguments each for permitting something and forbidding it. He asked G-d how to deal with that. He was told that this will be left to the Rabbis of each generation to decide and their decision will be binding…

With respect

With all due respect Grace, the jewish view is that the "Old Testament" is different from the Tanakh.

King David

04-18-2007, 11:10 PM

Lavikor I wanted to explain myself but my threads have been deleted. You didnt understand what I mean maybe we should meet I see you are in The country.

King David

04-18-2007, 11:18 PM

Another vieuw on the issue of reincarnation:

Reincarnation: The Transmigration of a Jewish Idea

Though some Jewish thinkers vigorously rejected the notion of reincarnation, kabbalists embraced it enthusiastically.

By Rabbi Dr. Louis Jacobs

The reincarnation of souls into other people or animals--known as gilgul hanefesh (lit. the rolling of the soul) in Hebrew--is an outgrowth of the idea of the soul's immortality. It has seized the imagination of many Jews and remains a popular literary subject. Numerous stories of demonic possession and exorcism by wonder rabbis are based on the idea of lonely souls, sinners in previous lives, entering into other bodies. Reprinted with permission from The Jewish Religion: A Companion, published by Oxford University Press.

Reincarnation is the idea that a soul now residing in a particular body may have resided in the body of another person in an earlier period of time. Theories of reincarnation or metempsychosis are found in many religions and cultures, ancient and modern, but there are no references to the idea in the Bible or the Talmud and it was unknown in Judaism until the eighth century CE, when it began to be adopted by the Karaites [a sectarian Jewish group].

showPerspectives();

The Philosophers Were Scornful

The usual Hebrew term for reincarnation is gilgul, "rolling," that is, the soul "rolls" through time from one body to a different body. The earliest [non-Karaite] reference to the doctrine is that of Saadiah [882-942] (Beliefs and Opinions, vi. 8). Saadiah writes:

"Yet I must say that I have found certain people, who call themselves Jews, professing the doctrine of metempsychosis, which is designated by them as the theory of the 'transmigration' of souls. What they mean thereby is that the spirit of Reuben is transferred to Simeon and afterwards to Levi and after that to Judah. [These names are generic, like Tom, Dick and Harry; no reference to the sons of Jacob is intended. Ed.] Many of them would even go so far as to assert that the spirit of a human being might enter into the body of a beast or that of a beast into the body of a human being, and other such nonsense and stupidities."

We learn incidentally from Saadiah's discussion that one of the reasons these people believed in reincarnation (this reason resurfaces in the Kabbalah) was because of the theological difficulties in G-d allowing little children to suffer. That they do, it was argued, is because of sins they had committed in a previous existence.

Among the other medieval thinkers, neither Judah Halevi [died 1141] nor Maimonides [1135-1204] makes any mention of the doctrine. Albo [15th century] (Ikkarim, vi. 20) refers to the doctrine only to refute it. He argues that the whole purpose for which the soul enters the body is to become a free agent, but once a soul has become a free agent why should it return to occupy another body? It is even more unlikely, says Albo, that human souls transmigrate into the bodies of animals.
The Mystics Were Believers

The kabbalists, on the other hand, do believe in reincarnation. The Zohar [the great 13th century kabbalistic text] refers to the doctrine in a number of passages (e.g. ii. 94a, 99b). Nahmanides [1194-1270], in his commentary to the book of Job (to Job 33:30), speaks of reincarnation as a great mystery and the key to an understanding of many biblical passages. The later Kabbalah is full of the belief in the transmigration of souls.

Various sins are punished by particular transmigrations; for example, the soul of an excessively proud man enters the body of a bee or a worm until atonement is attained. The heroes of the Bible and later Jewish histories are said to be the reincarnation of earlier heroes. Thus the soul of Cain (Genesis 4:1‑16) entered the body of Jethro and the soul of Abel the body of Moses. When Moses and Jethro met in friendship they rectified the sin caused by the estrangement of the two brothers (Exodus 18:1‑12).

Manasseh ben Israel (died 1657) devotes a large portion of his Nishmat Hayyim ("The Soul of Life") to a defense of reincarnation. In chapter 21 Manasseh observes that the doctrine was originally taught to Adam but was later forgotten. It was revived by Pythagoras [the 6th-century BCE Greek mathematician and philosopher], who was a Jew (!), and he was taught the doctrine by the prophet Ezekiel.

The Hasidim believe explicitly in the doctrine, and tales are told of Hasidic masters who remembered their activities in a previous incarnation.
Three Kinds of Reincarnation

In the kabbalistic literature three types of reincarnation are mentioned:

1. gilgul, transmigration proper, in which a soul that had previously inhabited one body is sent back to earth to inhabit another body.

2. ibbur, "impregnation," in which a soul descends from heaven in order to assist another soul in the body.

3. dybbuk, a generally late concept, in which a guilt‑laden soul pursued by devils enters a human body in order to find rest and has to be exorcised.

The philosophical difficulty in the whole doctrine of reincarnation lies in the problem of what possible meaning can be given to the identity of the soul that has been reincarnated, since the experiences of the body determine the character of the soul. How can the soul that has been in two or more bodies be the "same" soul?

[Gershom] Scholem has suggested that it was this difficulty which led the Zohar to postulate the existence of the tzelem ("image"), a kind of "astral body" which does not migrate from body to body and which therefore preserves individual identity. We are here in the realm of the occult, as, indeed, we are in the whole area of reincarnation.

Some modern Jews are attracted to the occult and believe in reincarnation. Otherwise the doctrine has had its day, and is believed in by very few modern Jews, although hardly any Orthodox Jew today will positively denounce the doctrine. This doctrine of reincarnation shows how precarious it is to attempt to see Judaism in monolithic terms. Here is a doctrine rejected as a foreign importation by a notable thinker such as Saadiah, and upon which other thinkers, including Maimonides, are silent, and yet, for the kabbalists, it is revealed truth.

Rabbi Dr. Louis Jacobs is the rabbi of the New London Synagogue, Goldsmid Visiting Professor at University College London, and Visiting Professor at Lancaster University. His books include Jewish Prayer, We Have Reason to Believe, Principles of the Jewish Faith, and A Jewish Theology.

Grace Seeker

04-18-2007, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by lavikor201

With all due respect Grace, the jewish view is that the "Old Testament" is different from the Tanakh.

Well, please educate me. I was serious in requesting that. As I said, I know that their are different books used in the Catholic Bible that are not in the Tanakh, but beyond the different grouping of the Tanakh in the Protestant Bible and the obvious ways that we would bring a different point of view to interpreting the material different, in what other ways do Jews view the "Old Testament" used by Protestant Christians from the Tanakh used by Jews?

King David

04-18-2007, 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by lavikor201

28. Then will you dwell in the land that I gave your fathers, and you will be a people to Me, and I will be to you as a God.

So does it mean when we where in exile we werent to him as a people? And G*d wasnt to us as a G*d?

So please explain me that chapters between others that say we didnt behave well in exile , and the religious authority has always been responsible through all of biblical history:

Yechezkiel - Chapter 36 (amongst others)

1. Now you, son of man, prophesy concerning the mountains of Israel, and say; O mountains of Israel, hearken to the word of the Lord.
2. So said the Lord God: Since the enemy said about you, "Aha!" and "the high places of the world have become our inheritance,"
3. Therefore, prophesy and say; So said the Lord God: Because, yea because those around you were appalled and longed for you to be an inheritance for the remnant of the nations, and you were brought up on the lips of every language and the gossip of every people.
4. Therefore, O mountains of Israel, hearken to the word of the Lord God. So said the Lord God to the mountains and to the hills, to the streams and to the valleys, to the desolate ruins and to the deserted cities, which became a scorn and a mockery to the remnant of the nations that are around.
5. Therefore, so said the Lord God: Surely with the fire of My anger I spoke about the remnant of the nations and about Edom in its entirety, who appointed My land for themselves as an inheritance with the joy of every heart, with disdain of soul, because her expulsion was for plunder.
6. Therefore, prophesy concerning the soil of Israel, and say to the mountains and to the hills, to the streams and to the valleys, So said the Lord God: Behold I have spoken with My anger and with My fury because you have borne the disgrace of the nations.
7. Therefore, so said the Lord God: I have raised My hand; surely the nations that are around you-they will bear their disgrace.
8. And you, the mountains of Israel, will produce your branches, and you will bear your fruit for My people Israel because they are about to come.
9. For behold I am for you, and I shall turn to you, and you will be tilled and sown.
10. And I shall multiply men upon you, the whole house of Israel in its entirety, and the cities will be settled, and the ruins will be built up.
11. And I shall multiply upon you man and beast, and they will be fruitful and multiply, and I shall settle you as in your early days, and I shall make you better than your beginnings, and you will know that I am the Lord.
12. And I shall cause man to walk upon you, My people Israel, and they will inherit you, and you will be to them for an inheritance, and you will no longer continue to be bereaved of them.
13. So said the Lord God: Because they say to you, 'You are a devourer of men and you were a bereaver of your nations,'
14. Therefore, you shall no longer devour men, and you shall no longer bereave your nations, says the Lord God.
15. And I shall no longer let you hear the disgrace of the nations; the taunt of the peoples you shall no longer bear, neither shall you bereave your nations any longer," says the Lord God.
16. And the word of the Lord came to me, saying:
17. "Son of man! The house of Israel, as long as they lived on their own land, they defiled it by their way and by their misdeeds, like the uncleanness of a woman in the period of her separation was their way before Me.
18. Wherefore I poured My wrath upon them for the blood that they had shed in the land, because they had defiled it with their idols.
19. And I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed through the countries. According to their way and their misdeeds did I judge them.
20. And they entered the nations where they came, and they profaned My Holy Name, inasmuch as it was said of them, 'These are the people of the Lord, and they have come out of His land.'
21. But I had pity on My Holy Name, which the house of Israel had profaned annong the nations to which they had come.
22. Therefore, say to the house of Israel; So says the Lord God: Not for your sake do I do this, O house of Israel, but for My Holy Name, which you have profaned among the nations to which they have come.
23. And I will sanctify My great Name, which was profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the Lord-is the declaration of the Lord God-when I will be sanctified through you before their eyes.
24. For I will take you from among the nations and gather you from all the countries, and I will bring you to your land.
25. And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you will be clean; from all your impurities and from all your abominations will I cleanse you.
26. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit will I put within you, and I will take away the heart of stone out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
27. And I will put My spirit within you and bring it about that you will walk in My statutes and you will keep My ordinances and do [them].
28. Then will you dwell in the land that I gave your fathers, and you will be a people to Me, and I will be to you as a God.
29. And I will save you from all your uncleannesses, and I will call to the corn and will multiply it, and I will not decree famine again over you.
30. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you shall no more have to accept the shame of famine among the nations.
31. And you shall remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own eyes on account of your sins and on account of your abominations.
32. Not for your sake do I do it, says the Lord God, may it be known to you; be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.
33. So says the Lord God: On the day that I will have cleansed you from all your iniquities, and I will resettle the cities, and the ruins shall be built up.
34. And the desolate land shall be worked, instead of its lying desolate in the sight of all that pass by.
35. And they shall say, 'This land that was desolate has become like the Garden of Eden, and the cities that were destroyed and desolate and pulled down have become settled as fortified [cities].'
36. And the nations that are left round about you shall know that I, the Lord, have built up the ruined places and have planted the desolate ones; I, the Lord, have spoken, and I will perform [it].
37. So says the Lord God: I will yet for this be inquired of by the house of Israel to do for them; I will multiply them-the men-like a flock of sheep.
38. Like the flocks appointed for the holy offerings, like the flocks of Jerusalem on its festivals, so will these cities now laid waste be filled with flocks of men, and they shall know that I am the Lord."

It speaks about bait(House of) Israel בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל why not children of Israel?

lavikor201

04-19-2007, 01:20 AM

King David, first what has any of what you said, have to do with the quotes you quoted?

Then I will answer your questions.

Rabbi Dr. Louis Jacobs is the rabbi of the New London Synagogue

Is he Orthodox?

What is the difference between the Protestant amnd Catholic ones. All I know is that, there is not one Christian Bible that is par on par with the Tanakh verses wise, and many times books wise. Also, I have never read a Christian Bible which did not butcher many translations to make it sound more poetic, favorable towards Christianity, etc.

I believe you also translated it from Greek not the Hebrew, correct me if I am wrong.

King David

04-19-2007, 01:29 AM

conservative,Masorti

Rabbi Dr. Louis Jacobs is the rabbi of the New London Synagogue, Goldsmid Visiting Professor at University College London, and Visiting Professor at Lancaster University. His books include Jewish Prayer, We Have Reason to Believe, Principles of the Jewish Faith, and A Jewish Theology.

Oh I forgot that G*d prottects only the Orthodox Rabbies from doing mistakes. :)

This is my point there are various views and we just dont know what is the right one untill the days of Moschiah. We shouldnt see The Talmud as The Entire Thruth.

lavikor201

04-19-2007, 01:34 AM

Originally Posted by King David

conservative

Now, does he follow Halacha? Of course, I am asking you to find me a Torah scholor , and I have explained that the Sadia Gaon is not the answer because many say it is proven he rejected it because Christians and Muslims would ahve wiped out our communities had he not.

I will try to explain to you the best I can first rabbinic authority. The passage refers to what the Sanhedrin in the Torah, however, the judges are also that will be later to. It is explained that if we have a man who is a major Torah giant, in one generation, but one who average in another, and they are the greatest in there generations then they are equals.

However, view since we are in exile, the fact that we have apeals courts using a supreme court and apeals court analogy. Example: When electricity was invented. Who did we go to for judgement? The Rabbis and they told us it was a violation of Shabbat! Now of course, we are not talking about the Sanhedrin and major Sages of the Talmud. We are speaking of halachic descions.

Now in the next post I will move onto your concern about Zionism, but instead of flooding this page with entire chapters, post only the verses that are relevant, and make your post organized and to the point.

Thank you.

Grace Seeker

04-19-2007, 01:39 AM

Originally Posted by lavikor201

In my previous post I listed all of the books of the Protestant "Old Testament", and listed next to them the books of the Tanakh. As I said, I don't think you will find anything in the Tanakh that is not in the Protestant "Old Testament" and vice versa. The Catholic Bible has 7 books not found in the Protestant Bible that are were part of the Greek Septuagint. Catholics accept these as part of the canon of their Bible while Protestants accept only those that were part of the Hebrew Jewish scriptures, not the Greek translation. The Orthodox Church accepts the same canon of scripture as does the Catholic Church.

I believe you also translated it from Greek not the Hebrew, correct me if I am wrong.

No. We don't translate it from the Greek. The King James suffers from it being dependant on the Greek "Textus Receptus" which not only used the Greek Septuigint, but even translated some of the Latin Vulgate back into Greek, when Erasumus didn't have a Greek text available to him. But modern translations use the Masoretic text as the basis for translating the "Old Testament".

lavikor201

04-19-2007, 01:44 AM

In my previous post I listed all of the books of the Protestant "Old Testament", and listed next to them the books of the Tanakh. As I said, I don't think you will find anything in the Tanakh that is not in the Protestant "Old Testament" and vice versa. The Catholic Bible has 7 books not found in the Protestant Bible that are were part of the Greek Septuagint. Catholics accept these as part of the canon of their Bible while Protestants accept only those that were part of the Hebrew Jewish scriptures, not the Greek translation. The Orthodox Church accepts that same canon of scripture as does the Catholic Church.

The enumeration differs though.

No. We don't translate it from the Greek. The King James suffers from it being dependant on the Textus Receptus which not only used the Greek Septuigint, but even translated some of the Latin Vulgate back into Greek. But modern translations use the Masoretic text as the basis for translating the "Old Testament".

Then I would suggest they get better translators or ones with more neutrality.

King David

04-19-2007, 01:47 AM

In the days of Moschiah there wont be annymore arguing!! Not before!! Because we just cant understand everything untill then!!

lavikor201

04-19-2007, 01:51 AM

Originally Posted by King David

In the days of Moschiah there wont be annymore arguing!! Not before!! Because we just cant understand everything untill then!!

That is great. I will keep out of the Zionism discussion. If your asking if I support the State of Israel, I say yes. RebElisha may have a different opinion. You can ask him.

In an organized way, why he may not, and also only posts verses that are relavent. I am telling you right now, if you post another full chapter text on this thread I will advise that all your posts be removed.

King David

04-19-2007, 01:52 AM

From Sh’ma 13/258, September 30, 1983 by Louis Jacobs

Whether the traditional halachah has been a dynamic and developing or static and unchanging system is not a halachic but a historical question, to be investigated by the standard employed in scholarly research. These methods, originating in the 19th century, were not available to the great halachists of the pre-modern era. The result has been (it is to this, I take it, which Singer wishes to draw our attention) that the halachists proceed as if the halachah were an exact science, its prac*titioners untainted by any subjective or external considerations.

While recognizing this, the historian is also fully aware that, whatever the halachists say about their work, they are not disembodied spirits operating with bloodless abstractions, but are influenced, consciously or unconsciously, by life's realities in the concrete situations in which they find themselves. To give one example among many, ostensibly the halachic debate over the means of circumventing the prohibition of agricultural labor during the sabbatical year in Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel) is of exactly the same order, say, as a question about whether a chicken with a particular defect is kosher. Yet it is obvious that the real motivation on both sides was theological. Rav Kook, who advanced halachic reasons for permitting the sale of the land to a non-Jew for the purpose, [felt] the need to come up with a conclusion that would not frustrate his Zionist aspirations; his opponents [arrived] at their conclusion because they were convinced it was more important to have the most cogent demonstration of Jewish faith and trust in God than to encourage the struggling settlers.

Rav Kook knew that only the permissive ruling was acceptable if his vision was to be realized. His opponents had a very different vision, one that demanded a strict ruling. To be sure, each side presented sound halachic arguments, but it was not the arguments which led to the conclusions; it was the conclusion which led to the arguments.

Value Judgments And Halachah

For historically minded, observant Jews, faithful to the halachah as the most distinctive feature of Judaism, the implications are shattering. If the halachists of the past were not only concerned with what the law is but with what it should be, if they were not only academic lawyers but also practical legislators, why should the process be called to a halt because present day halachists are hostile to historical investigation? If the halachists did base their rulings on what the law should be, on values other than that of pure legal theory, why must contemporary halachists be inhibited from reinterpreting the law when it no longer serves those values or where values have changed? It will not do to reply that value judgments must never be introduced into the halachic process. For one thing, such a statement is itself a value judgment and, for another, history has shown that pan-Halachism, as Heschel felicitously dubbed this attitude, was not adopted by the halachists themselves.

As long as fundamentalism reigns, as it does, at least on the surface, in halachically committed circles, there is no hope of a solution. Modern critical investigation is not in itself incompatible with devotion to the halachah. On the contrary, once the dynamism of the traditional halachah is uncovered, it becomes a powerful tool for the preservation of the halachah, exhibiting as it does the flexibility and capacity for adaptation without which the halachah would have become fossilized. The possibility and desirability of change, where change is needed, is then not seen as a sop to modernity, but as an integral part of the halachic tradition. The issue is a theological one. It amounts to whether or not the human role in revelation is acknowledged. When the advocates of change and the upholders of the dogma of changelessness argue for their respective viewpoints, it is this that ultimately they are arguing about.

Separate Domains For Rabbis And Scholars

Rabbi Meir Berlin tells, in his autobiography, of a young would-be rabbi who asked Reb Chayim Brisker to what a rabbi should direct his efforts. "Let him busy himself in communal activities," replied Reb Chayim. "As for paskenen shaales (rendering decisions in Jewish law), he should leave that to the Rabbonim!" Many of the yarmulka-wearing scholars, to whom Singer refers, evidently hold that scholarship is for the academics alone and of no relevance to halachic decision-making. That must be left to the rabbis. The rabbis, in turn, leave scholarship to the academics, whose work can be tolerated provided it does not dare to encroach on their domain. There is little evidence of any forthcoming rapprochement. Until there is, it is somewhat futile to speak of changes in the halachah. Singer rightly hints at the need for Jews who observe the halachah, but cannot accept the fundamentalistic premises on which it is now based, to declare openly where they stand. If they do, they may discover to their surprise that their fears that it will lead to halachic anarchy are unfounded and, who knows, it may even happen that the halachists will be moved to admit: "This is what we believed all along!"

lavikor201

04-19-2007, 01:55 AM

Alright so you post from somone who does not believe in Halacha. Do you follow the religion of "conservatism" or "Masortism"?

Either way, remove all your posts that are not questions, since you are not aloud, (mod woodrow said) to post in this thread as anything more than a questioner since your views do not coincide with Torah Judaism, which are what the answers of this thread are.

Thank you.

King David

04-19-2007, 01:57 AM

I have a problem I dont know who to follow!!! :(

I try to follow what my brain tells me is right!!!

Im from a non religious family!!! But lately I have become very interested in the religion.

lavikor201

04-19-2007, 02:02 AM

Originally Posted by King David

I have a problem I dont know who to follow!!! :(

I try to follow what my brain tells me is right!!!

Im from a non religious family!!! But lately I have become very interested in the religion.

That is great that you are becoming interested in your religion, however, to follow "conservatism" and "reformism" is a mistake. Reform Judaism began in Germany to try and secularize Jews. They allow intermarriage and because they do so, they have driven up the intermarriage rate since it is according to them "legal". Only a while back, did they actaully "allow" Kippot and Tallit again in their services. The Cinservative movement formed from them because an argument over some unkosher food at a conference of theres.

Orthodox Judaism is the only legit form of Judaism because we follow the Torah which is "eternal". I am afraid that if you wish to embrace the Torah lifestyle, and become more religious it will be nessesary to follow the Talmud to some point. If you just followed the Tanakh, well... you would be following a different religion.

I mean, what tefillin would you wear?? How would you tie your tallit tzit tzit? What would you do for Succot?

G-d gave an instruction manual for life called the Torah to the Jewish people. The Five books of Moses contain the basic outline of what we have to do but they leave a tremendous amount to be explained. The Torah says “Don’t Kill”. How about abortion? Euthanasia? Let’s say someone is threatening to kill me? No explanations. So He also gave us oral explanations to each passage in the Torah. They were passed down orally from generation to generation until about 2000 years ago when the Mishna and then the Talmud were written down to explain the Torah and present the basic outlines of the oral transmission. The Talmud contains these explanations as well as Rabbinic decrees, ethics, health guidelines, philosophy, even humor.

When Moses received the Torah from G-d, there were two parts to it – the written law and the oral law. Without the oral explanation much of the written law is ambiguous and not understandable. For example, we are commanded to put on “teffilin”, or “totafos”. What are these? What color are they? What shape? What’s in them? The list goes on and on. The oral law is what makes the written bible understandable, and meaningful. Many years later, around the time of the destruction of the second Temple, the Sages felt that the oral law had to be put into writing. Due to all the persecutions against the Jews, they felt that if the oral law wasn’t written, it would be totally forgotton. This is the Talmud.

Generally, the Jewish Bible, and the Torah refer to the written law. (Although Torah can be used to mean the oral Torah – or the oral law). The Talmud is the oral law. They were all given by G-d to Moses, but the oral law was first committed to writing at the time of the destruction of the Second Temple – around the year 70 CE.

When we speak of our “Sages” we are refering to the great rabbis of previous generations. These rabbis were not like the rabbis of today. Today we have to struggle to understand the most simple of concepts. To the sages, the Torah was constantly on the forefront of their minds. They saw a piece of text, not as an isolated piece, but as a part of a bigger picture.

Throughout Jewish history there have been a number of rabbis who fall under the category of “sage.” They lived in times when mystical learning was part and parcel with understanding the basics of Jewish philosophy. In other words, the sages were not your normal, everyday rabbis of old. They were the rabbis who truly understood our oral and written traditions. They had a pure tradition and could see things about Judaism that others could not.

When asking about who they were specifically, we call them “Chazal.” This is an acronim for “Chachamim zichronam levracham.” This means, “Rabbis of blessed memory.” If you want a sample then Rabbi Yehudah HaNasi, the codifier of the mishna is a great example, as well as Rabbi Akiva, whom you may have heard of.

lavikor201

04-19-2007, 02:07 AM

I don’t think that Talmud is “divine”, if you mean by that it came from G-d. It was written by human beings, and most of it is quotes from various people who lived in that time, a thousand years after prophecy ended.

However, the Talmud is Torah, and as such is holy (maybe that’s what you meant). When G-d gave the written Torah to Moshe, he also certainly must have explained to him the details of what it meant. That is what we call the Oral Torah. But beyond that, the Torah also prescribes a means of settling whichever disagreements arise afterwards, whether because of information lost through the trials and tribulations of many generations, or because of new issues that had not arisen before. It says in Deuteronomy 17:11 that such issues are settled by the Sanhedrin (The high court in Jerusalem of the Temple period), and we must follow whatever they say exactly. G-d wants us to be guided by our leaders.

That means that part of the Torah is the understanding of it that comes from our Rabbis. Though humans wrote it, G-d has commanded us to obey that part too, just as if he said the words himself. Since the Talmud is the last collection of decisions by a court that had the authority of the Sanhedrin, its decisions are real Torah. That is why all the Rabbinical authorities that followed always based their understanding on that of the Talmud.

King David

04-19-2007, 02:15 AM

You didnt understand what I meant:

I meant That Part of the Talmud Is The Oral Law(traddition,history) and of course that tradition started at mount Sinai.

And That The Other one is a debate! Of course I think the Tefilin Should be like that and That the Tsisit should be like that
(but actually it says in the Torah it shall be with threads of blue and I see a lot of black ones?why?)

lavikor201

04-19-2007, 02:17 AM

And That The Other one is a debate! Of course I think the Tefilin Should be like that and That the Tsisit should be like that
(but actually it says in the Torah it shall be with threads of blue and I see a lot of black ones?why?)

We do not have the blue strings anymore, although, some have said they have refound it. Many traditions has said that the Moshiach will identify the correct blue dye to use for us again.

King David

04-19-2007, 02:25 AM

Originally Posted by lavikor201

Agreed! That is prettymuch what I meant. That the whole Talmud isnt 100% flawless because it wasnt all revealed by G*D. And because it was only written down After the Exile. There where +-1800? years between the revelation of the Oral Law until it was written down. I think that a big part of it is maybe lost. Remember how many sins we did from Sinai untill the 2nd exile.

That is also one of the reasons we nead machiah to give us for a second time the Oral Law.

But beyond that, the Torah also prescribes a means of settling whichever disagreements arise afterwards, whether because of information lost through the trials and tribulations of many generations, or because of new issues that had not arisen before. It says in Deuteronomy 17:11 that such issues are settled by the Sanhedrin (The high court in Jerusalem of the Temple period), and we must follow whatever they say exactly. G-d wants us to be guided by our leaders.

That means that part of the Torah is the understanding of it that comes from our Rabbis. Though humans wrote it, G-d has commanded us to obey that part too, just as if he said the words himself. Since the Talmud is the last collection of decisions by a court that had the authority of the Sanhedrin, its decisions are real Torah. That is why all the Rabbinical authorities that followed always based their understanding on that of the Talmud.

Exacly, since 70CE we dont have the Sanhedrin.

This is also a reason why we nead the Maschiah to bring back the Sanhedrin with The Full Oral Law.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If we think Talmud is perfect then we actually say that we dont nead maschiah because we know what we are doing and we dont nead G*d to tell us the Laws through Maschiah!
So we didnt repent fully

King David

04-19-2007, 02:28 AM

Originally Posted by lavikor201

We do not have the blue strings anymore, although, some have said they have refound it. Many traditions has said that the Moshiach will identify the correct blue dye to use for us again.

So you see that the Talmud isnt perfect!! We nead Machiah NOW!!!

Numbers 15:37-41

Vayo'mer Ad-nai el mosheh lei'mor
And the L-rd spoke to Moses, saying...

Dabeir el b'nei Yis'ra'eil v'amar'ta aleihem
Speak to the children of Israel and say to them

v'asu lahem tzitzit al kan'fei vig'deihem l'dorotam
v'nat'nu al tzitzit hakanaf p'til t'kheilet
they should make themselves tzitzit (fringes) on the corners of their clothing throughout their generations,
and give the tzitzit of each corner a thread of blue.

V'hayah lakhem l'tzitzit ur'item oto uz'khar'tem et kol mitz'vot Ad-nai
va'asitem otam v'lo taturu acharei l'vav'khem v'acharei eineikhem
asher atem zonim achareihem
And they shall be tzitzit for you, and when you look at them you will remember all of the Lord's commandments
and do them and not follow after your heart and after your eyes
which lead you astray.

L'ma'an tiz'k'ru va'asitem et kol mitz'votai viyitem k'doshim lei'l-heikhem
In order to remember and do all My commandments, and be holy for your G-d.

Ani Ad-nai El-heikhem
asher hotzei'ti et'khem mei'eretz Mitz'rayim lih'yot lakhhem leilohim
Ani Adonai El-heikhem
I am the L-rd, your G-d
who lead you from the land of Egypt to be a G-d to you.
I am the L-rd, your G-d.

Everyday we pray that we should make ourself tsitsit with blue strings. but we wear black strings???

At least the Flag is with blue lines on the side :)

lavikor201

04-19-2007, 02:44 AM

First off you said:

If we think Talmud is perfect then we actually say that we dont nead maschiah because we know what we are doing and we dont nead G*d to tell us the Laws through Maschiah!
So we didnt repent fully

That is not the reason we need Moshiach. Read this as well: That means that part of the Torah is the understanding of it that comes from our Rabbis. Though humans wrote it, G-d has commanded us to obey that part too, just as if he said the words himself. Since the Talmud is the last collection of decisions by a court that had the authority of the Sanhedrin, its decisions are real Torah.

As for the blue strings. That problem is not with the Oral law but finding the species with the dye.

King David

04-19-2007, 02:52 AM

Originally Posted by lavikor201

First off you said:

That is not the reason we need Moshiach. Read this as well: That means that part of the Torah is the understanding of it that comes from our Rabbis. Though humans wrote it, G-d has commanded us to obey that part too, just as if he said the words himself. Since the Talmud is the last collection of decisions by a court that had the authority of the Sanhedrin, its decisions are real Torah.

They (the rabbies that wrote the Talmud) had the the authority of the Sanhedrin???? :rollseyes
And I thought that the Sanhedrin will be reinstated with the comming of maschiah!!!:-[
Who gave that authority????

As for the blue strings. That problem is not with the Oral law but finding the species with the dye.

Hein Ok, black is closer to lightblue (tchelet) than the lightblue that is neaded???

lavikor201

04-19-2007, 02:57 AM

Comon, black is closer to lightblue (tchelet) than the lightblue that is neaded???

It has nothing to do with the color, but instead the dye.

They (the rabbies that wrote the Talmud) had the the authority of the Sanhedrin????

And I thought that the Sanhedrin will be reinstated with the comming of maschiah!!!

Would you really like me to go very deep into the topic and explain why? if so I will but I will save it for tommorow.

Skywalker

04-19-2007, 05:36 PM

This thread is getting very difficult to follow. I wish I could say it was amusing, but...no. Oh well, carry on.

Grace Seeker

04-19-2007, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by lavikor201

The enumeration differs though.

If you simply mean the naming and numbering system is different between the Protestant "Old Testament" and the Tanakh, yes. I have stated that. But if you mean something more than that, perhaps you could give me an example?

Then I would suggest they get better translators or ones with more neutrality.

I'll certainly accept this as your point of view. Beyond the use of the term "virgin" in Isaiah 7:14, what are some of the other places you notice it being so different as to qualify as a "hideous" translation?

lavikor201

04-19-2007, 07:35 PM

CRUCIFIXION

The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."

SUFFERING SERVANT

Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."

In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.

Ironically, Isaiah's prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus.

From where did these mistranslations stem? St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nanianzus, wrote: "A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire."

Would you like more? Although I admit, majority of "mistranslations" are actually just more "taken out of context" and "twisted".

Grace Seeker

04-19-2007, 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by lavikor201

My particular bible provides both renderings, though it does indicate a preference for the translation you reject. I take it that this is not the thread to discuss why one might be preferred over another, but simply to observe the differences you are noting.

Would you like more? Although I admit, majority of "mistranslations" are actually just more "taken out of context" and "twisted".

Most certainly I would like more. I am not afraid to the truth, anyone's truth. If it really is true, then I prefer to know it than not know it, even if it is not what I expected to find. If it causes one to rethink some previously held assumptions, better to rethink because of the truth, than to continue with unchanged thinking when that thinking is based on an untruth. If it is something is other than truth, then being aware of non-truths masquerading as truth is valuable information as well.

SUFFERING SERVANT

Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."

In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.

That seems more one of different interpretations of the meaning of the text than bad translation of the text itself. Or am I missing something?

lavikor201

04-19-2007, 08:24 PM

Well I am pretty sure I know why a Christian would prefer one translation over the other, however, they are not both "translations". One is a translation from the Hebrew text, while the other is a straight up mistranslation.

That seems more one of different interpretations of the meaning of the text than bad translation of the text itself. Or am I missing something?

I wrote: "majority of "mistranslations" are actually just more "taken out of context" and "twisted"."

Which I stand by, since although the text in many cases is not translated accuratly, I am focusing more on passages twisted on purpose instead of just translated to a different word to make it sound more "poetic".

Grace Seeker

04-19-2007, 10:44 PM

And as I said: Most certainly I would like more. I am not afraid to the truth, anyone's truth. If it really is true, then I prefer to know it than not know it, even if it is not what I expected to find. If it causes one to rethink some previously held assumptions, better to rethink because of the truth, than to continue with unchanged thinking when that thinking is based on an untruth. If it is something is other than truth, then being aware of non-truths masquerading as truth is valuable information as well.

I think that you may be right as to why a Christians might prefer one translation over another, but I am not sure that is why Psalm 22 is translated the way it is. I note there there are various existant texts. Depending on which one chooses as most original you would have to prefer one over the other. The Masoretic text has what you indicated. But I think that there are other older texts, which, while not complete, do bring light upon certain passages. The change in Isaiah 7 is one of conceding to pressure. But I am not sure that this is the case with Psalm 22. There are texts, Jewish texts, not Christian texts, that are older that would need to be translated as "pierced" rather than refering to a lion simply to have an accurate translation of the words written on the page. Determining which text to prefer may be biased, but perhaps the bias is against having anything that might be considered to a reference to a Christian interpretation of the passage? Could that not have been a possibility in the historical development and transmission of the Masoretic text itself?

(Btw, I am familiar with the detailed process by which the Masoretic text has been kept, counting the individual letters, etc. -- so you don't need to go into that detail. There was a time before the Masoretic text existed, and there do exists some other copies of the Hebrew scriptures that are at variance with the Masoretic text.)

Is it the Jewish position that these other texts should not be studied and the only the Masorectic text should be considered when doing translation work? Can you fill me in on the work of textual criticism with regard to the Tanakh?

lavikor201

04-20-2007, 02:06 AM

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

In Isaiah 53:8, the Gentile spokesperson continues to acknowledge the fault of the nations for the trials and tribulations suffered by the servant, Israel, during his passage through history (cf. Isaiah 52:1, 15-53:1-2). Thus, he states: "As a result of the transgression of my people [the Gentile nations] he [Israel] has been afflicted." The literal translation of' this verse is: "From the transgression of' my people there has been affliction to him [or "to them"]." The poetic form of lahem, lamo, "to them," is used in this verse in reference to a collective noun (cf. Genesis 9:26). Lamo is rendered "to him" as it refers to the collective noun, "suffering servant of the L-rd," that is, the Jewish people. In such an instance, lamo can be translated in the singular although it must always be understood to be in the plural in relation to what numerically constitutes the entity given the appellative "suffering servant of the L-rd."

The proper rendering of lamo is sometimes unclear. For example, there appears to be a question on how to render lamo in the verse, "Then a man uses it [a tree] for fuel: and he takes it, and warms himself; he kindles it and bakes bread; he makes a G-d, and worships it; he makes it a carved image, and falls down lamo ["to them," alternately suggested "to it,"]" ( Isaiah 44:15). Since the noun, "G-d," is in the singular it would seem to show that lamo can mean "to it" as an actual singular and not just when used as a collective noun. This is not the case. Although the prophet's words are in the singular he uses the poetic form lamo, "to them," to show that the content of his message is to be understood as being in the plural. The translator of the Hebrew, into the Greek Septuagint, understood this and rendered the verse accordingly: "That it might be for men to burn: and having taken part of it he warms himself; and they burn part of it; and bake loaves thereon; and the rest they make for themselves G-ds, and they worship them."

The plural nature of the poetic form lamo is supported by the fifty four places it is used in the Hebrew Scriptures. That the plural lamo, in verse 8, refers to the suffering servant of the L-rd as a collective noun excludes any possibility that it pertains to an individual. As a result, it cannot refer to Jesus. The suffering servant of the L-rd is a collective noun and, as such, does not refer to a specific Israelite.

I think that you may be right as to why a Christians might prefer one translation over another, but I am not sure that is why Psalm 22 is translated the way it is. I note there there are various existant texts. Depending on which one chooses as most original you would have to prefer one over the other. The Masoretic text has what you indicated. But I think that there are other older texts, which, while not complete, do bring light upon certain passages. The change in Isaiah 7 is one of conceding to pressure. But I am not sure that this is the case with Psalm 22. There are texts, Jewish texts, not Christian texts, that are older that would need to be translated as "pierced" rather than refering to a lion simply to have an accurate translation of the words written on the page. Determining which text to prefer may be biased, but perhaps the bias is against having anything that might be considered to a reference to a Christian interpretation of the passage? Could that not have been a possibility in the historical development and transmission of the Masoretic text itself?

No. Of course this is the Jewish answer. You may believe what you wish. Psalm 22 also is a mistranslation. The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Therefore it is a blatent mistaranslation, since you said earlier that Christians translate from the Hebrew.

(Btw, I am familiar with the detailed process by which the Masoretic text has been kept, counting the individual letters, etc. -- so you don't need to go into that detail. There was a time before the Masoretic text existed, and there do exists some other copies of the Hebrew scriptures that are at variance with the Masoretic text.)

Is it the Jewish position that these other texts should not be studied and the only the Masorectic text should be considered when doing translation work? Can you fill me in on the work of textual criticism with regard to the Tanakh?

Scrolls copied (indirectly) from Moshe's Torah were not the only texts written by the scribes. At that time in history, the only books of religious material that Jews were allowed to have were the biblical works (Gittin 60a). Therefore, there was a need to mass produce these books. Since scrolls written according to the demanding halachic requirements take a long time to write, they are impractical for mass production. However, an alternative to a scroll is what the Talmud called a megillah letinok. In the ancient times there was no printing press, of course, so Bibles were handwritten. However, in order to speed the writing to enable the mass production necessary to have teaching materials for schoolchildren, the normal stringencies required for a scroll were ignored. Scribes wrote from memory and without concern for exact spelling. However, these were not viewed as authoratative, because ony actual scrolls were considered holy, but for teaching and mass production purposes, this is where you may see a miss match.

butterflylady

04-20-2007, 11:07 AM

What a thread, very interesting. I have a question if you don't mind. What do you tell your children about the more "scary" parts of the Tanach? My daughter and I were watching the Disney movie about Moses, and in the part where they are drowning, she turned to me is horror and asked "Mom, is God doing that?" She is a gentle child, and she was truely shocked, because that is not what we have given her as a "idea" of God. I figure I could tell her that 1, yes that is God, and yes that he judges "evil" or 2, that those stories are illustrative stories and that they stand for concepts of God, or 3 that yes that did happen, but they were magnified to illustrate or 4 they are just fables.

Skywalker

04-20-2007, 12:38 PM

As a Muslim, I would suggest you tell the child the truth, but it also depends on her age. This world is no picnic, and a child has to realize that sooner or later, and who better to tell her about that than you? There are people who do bad things, things that hurt others in defiance of God. God in that case protected the righteous, just as He will for all time, and that's a good message to give to a child IMO.

lavikor201

04-23-2007, 12:06 AM

Originally Posted by butterflylady

I would answer 1, but you should provide a more in depth view of why they were punished this way. Example, the Egyptions were drowned yes, but remember they drowned all the male Jewish children in the nile river. Therefore, they under free will ultimatly decided their own punishments. The soldiers that died were the same army that drowned the Jewish children, which is why Moses was put in the basket in the first place.

abdulhakim55

04-23-2007, 06:54 PM

If the Jews are the "chosen people" then how do you explain why so many hate you, and so much "anti-semetism" has been in the world?

King David

04-23-2007, 07:22 PM

beecause since we are in exile we are in punnishment thatwill last untill the world to come

arabiyyah

04-23-2007, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by King David

beecause since we are in exile we are in punnishment thatwill last untill the world to come

I suggest you read this post, where Brother Woodrow stated your not suppose to post answers in this thread:

http://www.islamicboard.com/715615-post1634.html

rav

04-23-2007, 08:38 PM

Shalom Aleichem adbulhakim55, you wrote:

Originally Posted by abdulhakim55

If the Jews are the "chosen people" then how do you explain why so many hate you, and so much "anti-semetism" has been in the world?

Very interesting question if I may say so. Of course this is only my humble opinion, and I believe I have efficiently typed up every follow up question you could ask with an answer as well within my post. Many Jews would disagree with my answer, and that is okay, but this is mine. The universal hatred against our people is actually one of the greatest miracles of history. It is indeed not explainable. You are right that men formerly thought that the differences between Israel and the gentile nations were caused by the Torah as opposed to religion. But this was entirely disproved with the case of the German Jews. To provide you with a background, no Jewish community, ever in history at this point in time had rebelled against the Torah as much as Germany’s Jewish community. Formerly, all Jews were conspicuous in garb, beards, language, and customs which should have more readily have excited the animosity of the gentile nations. When the German Jews forsook the Torah, intermarried with gentiles or had been converted to Christianity, this should have gave their neighbors less cause for animosity, however, instead arose the mightiest wave of hatred in history, at a time when religious bigotry was at its lowest. There can be no doubt that the background of this hatred was the religious bias of the Germans’ ancestors. But that this should come to such a catastrophic climax in a time of extreme religious laxity and against Jews who were entirely assimilated proves the miraculous nature of this hatred.

The function of this hatred is to preserve the Chosen community from being swallowed up by the nations, or from imitating them. The more Jews resemble the gentiles or come close to them, the greater degree of hatred is necessary to prevent assimilation or imitation. This has happened in Spain, Russia, Poland and elsewhere. Germany is the most conspicuous example. Ezra said:

“We are slaves, but in our slavery, our G-d has not forsaken us.” (Ezra 9:9)

What is interesting is the condition of gentiles compared to Jews in their own lands, when it came to success in a variety of aspects. But I will not go off topic.

Since you are interested in this subject, I will provide you with another example. It is well known that throughout the Middle Ages, a Jew could have escaped persecution by renouncing his faith. In almost all persecutions, expulsions and massacres this alternative was almost always offered to us. Rarely was it accepted. Any one of our masses could have attained liberty by saying only one word. Yet even among the worst of us, this rarely if ever happened. At the expulsion of Spain, the offer was made that anyone who accepted conversion could remain. Only a small group remained, and they even continued to be Jews in secret. Now, note this remarkable fact: Of the six million Jews killed by Hitler’s demons, not a single one was given the offer to save his life by renouncing his religion. Now what is the significance in that?

During the previous centuries when the Jews were ready to die for the Torah, they were given this ordeal because G-d knew they could withstand it. In Hitler’s time, when all to many Jews were forsaking the Torah by their own violation, such a test would have resulted in mass conversion. Nowhere were Jews so eager to be lost among the gentiles, as in Germany. Yet nowhere in the world was such a efficient machinery to identify assimilated Jews, and to separate them, as in Germany. A vast index system was set up for all Jews and “part-Jews”. Jews had all taken gentile names so a decree went out that all male Jews must add the name “Israel” and ever female Jew must add the name “Sarah”. The Jews had merged identities with the gentiles, so each Jew was forced to where a Star of David on this clothes. All this was pure madness for the Nazi’s because they gained nothing from it! The only thing the Nazi’s achieved by this was to lose valuable elements of the populace, like professionals and business men. Had they not been molested they would have been like every other German, and supported their own nation! But this madness was for a very great purpose, as we now perceive in light of G-d’s plan.

For men whose final goal is the afterlife, assimilation is worse than death. These phenomenons’s are but a few of the countless machinery that which the Master of history has ceaselessly carried out to preserve the Chosen community. When Hitler was burning European Jews, a prominent newspaper here expressed some pity for these “miserable wretches”. This mentality of these gentiles to admire the men of violence and those who “fight” and despise the weak, is a disgusting one.

Since the Jews fell into the trap of trying to emulate the Germans so much, G-d allowed the Germans to do their utmost to show who they truly are. Those Jews that began to ignore their soul, and in imitation, like all those around them began to only focus on the needs of the body, were made to see how their efforts were ended in the worst ruination of Jewish bodied in history (The Germans burned my people after gassing them). The Jews at this point were so infatuated by the schools of science and the German physicians and ignored their religion, and the covenant, therefore, look at the disgusting nature of the physicians which were revealed (They performed disgusting experiments on my people).

In an era, when such discriminatory laws and ghettos were unknown, this sudden phenomenon to medieval times was truly startling! Now this theory may seem disgusting to you, and it is to me as well, but ponder on this. Judaism teaches that you should die than rather renounce the Torah. Therefore, a Jew who died in the Holocaust is tremendously better off in the long run as a Jew who died because of his religion, then a Jew who would assimilate and renounce the Torah in Germany. Of course, Hitler and his demons had free will as we all do; their true nature was just revealed to us. Therefore, every action they committed results in punishment for them. I am no way saying the Holocaust is not anything less than the worst of all genocide, I am just saying that evrything in the world has a purpose, which we may or may not ever understand.

The bottom line is that the more anti-Semitism, we as Jews receive the more our community is preserved and the more we as Jews are not so eager to intermarry and forsake the Torah to join secular culture. It is a known fact that the less anti-Semitism is exhibited in an area, the more assimilation occurs.

abdulhakim55

04-23-2007, 09:55 PM

Very interesting post. However, is it so important to seperate yourself from non-Jewish society in matters of religion?

rav

04-23-2007, 10:05 PM

Shalom Aleichem again abdulhakim55, you wrote:

Originally Posted by abdulhakim55

Very interesting post. However, is it so important to seperate yourself from non-Jewish society in matters of religion?

I will use a comparison from "Pirkei Avos", a holy text, and show you how it is relevant to our topic. Chapter 1, Mishna 7 says:

"Nittai of Arbel said, distance yourself from a bad neighbor, do not befriend a wicked person, and do not despair of punishment."

The theme of this mishna is to beware close association with wicked people, those who may have a bad influence on ourselves or our families. R. Samson Raphael Hirsch notes a discrepancy in the language of mishna. Regarding bad neighbors we are told to distance ourselves, while regarding the wicked we are told only not to befriend them. The reason for this difference is that it is possible to choose one's neighbors - by selecting a neighborhood in which to live. Regarding the wicked, however, it is impossible to entirely avoid contact with them - in business (especially) or on the street. Thus, we may have to interact with them on some level, but we must take care not to closely befriend them.

Our mishna concludes that we not lose faith that G-d ultimately punishes. This continues the same theme. Do not be fooled that the wicked have all the money. Do not be tempted to run after them or imitate their ways. Divine retribution will certainly come - and the associates of the wicked may well be caught in their very same web (or at least may forced to testify). G-d may very well be "blessing" the wicked in this world because He has given up, so to speak, on prodding them to repent.

Throughout our history, Jews have always placed a great deal of emphasis on community - that we stick together and distance themselves to whatever degree possible from negative influences. Throughout the Exile, Jews have generally formed their own neighborhoods, schools, and judicial systems. The term "ghetto" is perhaps too strong a pejorative - and Pales and ghettos were usually imposed from without - but throughout much of our history, we have certainly made ourselves a nation apart. Likewise, our host nations have almost invariably seen us as a foreign entity living within their midst.

Now, to return back to the topic, I have just demonstrated that we are told to live away from wicked people. So in the category of how we are to act, we are to live near moral people, instead of wicked ones. Therefore, in matters of religion the people you would want to live near are ones who are followers of Torah. Just like a moral person should strive to live in a neighborhood that does not have wicked people, so to a Jew should strive to live in an area where anti-Torah actions are not taking place. One can only conclude that this would be a place made up of Torah observant Jews.

abdulhakim55

04-23-2007, 10:11 PM

Please see where I make the text red to understand what my concerns are:

Originally Posted by rav

“We are slaves, but in our slavery, our G-d has not forsaken us.” (Ezra 9:9)

Can you explain what you mean in those two instances?

Originally Posted by rav

I will use a comparison from "Pirkei Avos", a holy text, and show you how it is relevant to our topic. Chapter 1, Mishna 7 says:

"Nittai of Arbel said, distance yourself from a bad neighbor, do not befriend a wicked person, and do not despair of punishment."

Can those two topics be comparable? Your deriving one answer from comparing the answer to a different topic.

Hemoo

04-24-2007, 12:58 AM

i have a question concerning the False Messiah (named al-Dajjal)

what does the jewish texts say about the False mesiah ??

from the prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) i know that every prophet did warn his followers from the afflictions of this False Mesiah and here is the hadith in Sahih Bukhary :

Narated By Ibn Umar :The Prophet praised Allah and then mentioned Al-Masih Ad-Dajjal and described him extensively, saying, "Allah did not send any prophet but that prophet warned his nation of Al-Masih Ad-Dajjal. Noah and the prophets following him warned (their people) of him. He will appear amongst you (O Muhammad's followers), and if it happens that some of his qualities may be hidden from you, but your Lord's State is clear to you and not hidden from you. The Prophet said it thrice. Verily, your Lord is not blind in one eye, while he (i.e. Ad-Dajjal) is blind in the right eye which looks like a grape bulging out (of its cluster).

it is good to mention that this Dajjal will have great powers and that he will pretend that he is God but any one with faith will be able to see that he is a liar because no one can see god in this life and this Dajjal is ugly but we know that God is perfect.

rav

04-24-2007, 02:36 AM

Shalom Aleichem abdulhakim55, you wrote:

Originally Posted by abdulhakim55

Can you explain what you mean in those two instances?

Can those two topics be comparable? Your deriving one answer from comparing the answer to a different topic.

1. Religious bigotry was at an all time low at this period of history which makes it very strange that the worst persecution of Jews would occur at a time, where the Jews tried to blend in the most instead of acting different. The other, is that the Jews although highly restricted were very successful in a variety of areas.

2. They are not different. One has to do with the neighbors values of morality. The other has to do with the neighbors values based on spirituality. The same basic concept.

Shalom Aleichem hemoo, you wrote:

Originally Posted by hemoo

what does the jewish texts say about the False mesiah ??

No we do not believe in that.

I think we have a difference of opinion here. Your view of a false Messiah is someone who combats the real one and is described as like an 'anti-messiah'. However, we view false messiahs as people like Jesus. People that have claimed to be major prophets and in turn claimed that new 'holy' texts should be observed instead of the Torah are false messiahs/prophets. The Torah is eternal, and therefore, in accordance with Judaism when one claims to have a replacement like a "New" Testament or "Quran" we view them as false Messiahs/prophets. I have no reason to offend you because Islam is right on target with what gentiles should follow (seven laws of noah). We believe Jesus is a 'false messiah', but of course he will not come back and battle the real messiah. The Torah also teaches us that these false prophets and messiahs will perform miracles to try and get the Jewish people to stop following Torah, to instead follow their 'holy' book.

thirdwatch512

04-24-2007, 02:52 AM

shalom,

I have a quick question.. why, in your opinion, do you think that G-d would allow false prophets to be so sucessful?

and also..

Do you(jews) think that Mohammad was sent as a test from G-d, and that he really thought he recieved revelations from an Angel, or do you think he made it all up, or what do you think on that?

and although you guys don't believe in Jesus as the messiah, if he existed, do you guys think that he was crucified? (that was a popular punishment, and the romans did it overwhelmingly.)

also, when can the third temple be built? and is the dome of rock in its way?

thirdwatch512

04-24-2007, 02:56 AM

and also, many different faiths have challenges, if someone doesn't think it's real.

for instanse, in Mormonism, mormons are supposed to pray daily for God to show them the truth. And they are supposed to study all religions very intensively (although most mormons don't do that, the Book of mormon strongly encourages it.)

Baha'is have an "independent investigation of truth" where they ask you to study all faiths.

Islam has things like "surah like it" challenge, and in the qu'ran it says at least a dozen times "there is no way man can make this, if they did it would have many mistakes" and it has different challenges and all.

what do Jews think of this? like why would G-d allow false prophets to say such things?

plus, like the Book of Mormon has over 27 different writing styles in it. and the writing style of the qu'ran is different from mohammad being quoted in the hadiths. any thoughts on that?

rav

04-24-2007, 03:07 AM

Shalom Aleichem thirdwatch512, you wrote:

Originally Posted by thirdwatch512

I will quote the Mishneh Torah for you, since I believe this passage answers your first question:

The people of Israel did not believe in Moses because of the miracles he performed. Indeed, one who believes because of miracles retains a measure of doubt in his heart, since a "miracle" can be done by trickery or sorcery. Rather, all the miracles he performed in the desert were by necessity, not to prove his prophecy: it was necessary to drown the Egyptians, so he split the sea and submerged them in it; they needed food, so he brought down the manna; they thirsted so he split the rock; Korach and his company denied [his authority], so the earth swallowed them up; and the same with all the miracles.

So why did they believe in him? Because when we stood at Sinai, our own eyes saw and our own ears heard the fire, the sounds and the flames, and how Moses approached the cloud and G-d's voice called to him, and we heard it say: "Moses! Moses! Tell them such and such..." As it is written [Deuteronomy 5:4]: "Face to face G-d spoke with you" and [ibid. 5:3], "Not with our ancestors did G-d make this covenant..." The event at Sinai alone is the proof that Moses' prophecy is true without the shadow of a doubt, as it is written [Exodus 19:9], "Behold, I shall come to you in a thick cloud, so that the people should hear Me speak to you and also believe in you forever." From this we see that prior to that, they did not believe in him with a faith that is everlasting, only with a faith that leaves a possibility for doubts and second thoughts.

Thus, the ones to whom Moses was sent, they themselves are the witnesses that his prophecy is authentic, so that he needn't perform any proofs for them. He and they both witnessed [his prophecy] together, like two witnesses who witnessed something together, each one of whom is a witness that his fellow is saying the truth, and neither of whom requires any proof of the other's honesty...

So if a prophet arises and performs signs and great wonders and seeks to deny Moses' prophecy, we do not listen to him, and we know with certainty that these sign are by trickery and sorcery. For Moses' prophecy is not based on proofs, that we should weigh these proofs against those proofs. Rather, we saw it with our eyes and heard it with our ears, just as Moses did. This is as if witnesses would testify to a person regarding something he saw with his own eyes that it was not as he saw it; this person would take no heed of them, but know surely that they are false witnesses...

(Mishneh Torah, Laws of the Fundamentals of Torah 8:1-3)

Now to respond to other part of your question, it is all about how you will respond. Will you be tempted by these magic tricks and abandon the Torah? Or will you stay faithful to the document which was witnessed and did not depend on miracles by Moses.

The second part of your question goes into Mohammad. Now I have no idea what Mohammad was here to do. Possibly to tempt those away from the Torah, or maybe to bring gentiles closer to monotheism, but not Jews of course since we will always be responsible to follow the eternal laws of the Torah. The Quran according to Judaism though is not by the hand of G-d.

As for the Dome of the Rock and the Third Holy Temple. Yes, the Dome of the Rock is in its way, but that does not matter. As a matter of fact, you could say that the Muslims are sort of our guards of the Temple Mount. Think of it in larger terms. Jews cannot go up to the Temple Mount nor build the Holy Temple until the days of the Moshiach, which by that time, the Muslims will have no opposition to the Holy Temple being rebuilt. So the situation we have today is that the Holy Temple is being guarded by the Muslims. Every time secular Jews who do not know better than to wait out the exile for the Moshiach come close to the Temple, the Muslims go insane. Compare it it a guard dog who barks ferociously at you. However, it is for your own benefit though. In the mean time, they have no idols on the place, and take care of it. When they cease to take care of it, I have no doubt that G-d will judge them accordingly, and their control over the mount will be effected as well.

Originally Posted by thirdwatch512

for instanse, in Mormonism, mormons are supposed to pray daily for God to show them the truth. And they are supposed to study all religions very intensively (although most mormons don't do that, the Book of mormon strongly encourages it.)

Baha'is have an "independent investigation of truth" where they ask you to study all faiths.

Islam has things like "surah like it" challenge, and in the qu'ran it says at least a dozen times "there is no way man can make this, if they did it would have many mistakes" and it has different challenges and all.

These challenges are of no consequence. They mean nothing. All religions have them, and the starters of religions who grew so large were obviously smart enough to think of challenges which in turn could never be answered. Smart, but not proof. Proof is that over 1 million people saw an event and not once in history, ever disputed it ever happening. You cannot formulate such a lie. Anyone who says it can be done should then never vote anyone guilty in a court of law, and should doubt most of all the history we know today which are from witnesses. The other point is that Judaism does not claim that all who did not see this proof should believe it. Only the ones G-d proved it to, must believe it and follow the revelation, yet all other religions claim the entire world is destined to eternal hell unless they submit to their specific religion!

Originally Posted by thirdwatch512

what do Jews think of this? like why would G-d allow false prophets to say such things?

Originally Posted by thirdwatch512

plus, like the Book of Mormon has over 27 different writing styles in it. and the writing style of the qu'ran is different from mohammad being quoted in the hadiths. any thoughts on that?

1.) Bechirah means not only the ability to do the right thing over the wrong thing, but the ability to choose right because it is right.

If we would be able to see the full picture, a cheeseburger would look like some kind of poison which if you eat will cause you excruciating pain, stolen money would look white hot such that if you touch it, it will incinerate your hand, and a Mitzvah would look more desirable than a ten million dollar bill.

The choice between doing a mitzvah or an Aveirah would be the same as The Lady Or The Tiger, but you would know behind which door lurks the tiger.
Not much of a choice.

So if you would have the real picture, you would then really not have Bechirah, because although you would have the ability to choose, only an idiot would choose scorching fire over eternal pleasure.
In such a case, your choosing the Mitzvah would not show that you are willing to choose right over wrong, but only that you would rather choose pleasure over pain.

Evil people would choose right over wrong in equal measure with righteous people.

You would not get any credit for choosing the Mitzvah that way.

That's not the type of Bechirah Hashem wanted us to have.

Bechirah means the ability to choose right from wrong because it is right. Because you care about choosing right. because you value what's right.

So what Hashem did was to give you the two options, the lady and the tiger, and you know which is which, but in order to ensure that you choose the lady because of what she is rather than for obvious reasons, Hashem makes the tiger not so scary and the lady not so appealing.
At least not in this world.

It's to balance your Bechirah to make sure you choose right from wrong, not pleasure from pain.
It's like the story of a guy, Frank we'll call him, who meets a girl online, and, after a number of emails and IM's he is impressed with her personality and the finally decide to meet, the next day, in Penn Station. "How will I know who you are?" he asked.

"I'll be wearing a white rose," she said.

Well, the guy arrived, he looked around, and there was an elderly, diminutive lady, with white hair, wearing a white rose. He sighed, he put his chin up, he walked over, smiled and said: "Hi. I'm Frank. May I take you to dinner?"

As he looked at her, she said: "Young man. I don't exactly know what this is all about. But I was told that if you came up and asked me to dinner that I should point you over to that lady over yonder."
And there was the most bedazzling girl-of-his-dreams, who became his blushing bride and the mother of his children.

Similarly Hashem hides the "real picture" because wants to make sure we choose the Mitzvos for the right reasons. So he makes Mitzvos appear in this world not the way they really are.

But whereas Frank believed that his girl was old and undesirable, Hashem, in His benevolence, allows us to know, intellectually, that the Mitzvah is most dazzling piece of beauty that we can imagine.

2.) I pay no attention to such things like writing styles. Those two books do not concern me.

thirdwatch512

04-24-2007, 03:22 AM

thanks for the response!!

also, now here's just two more questions.. hah call me crazy, but i had them written down lol, and i didn't want to ask too many at one time.

ok, so requirments for the messiah.. is it true that the Jews have to be the majority in israel for the messiah to come? is there anything to back that up? and were the jews the majority in the time of Jesus?

also, i read somewhere that since we're not in a time of prophesy, G-d won't test people with false prophets. like there might be false prohpets, but G-d won't personally do it. i guess like they won't be able to do signs and such. is that true, or? i think i read that on askmoses, but i am really not sure. and when i asked the scholar.. they were so busy, they didn't understand my question lol

rav

04-24-2007, 03:38 AM

Originally Posted by thirdwatch512

Shalom,

The basic answers to your questions are, I am not sure where it is said that a majority of Jews will live in Israel, and G-d will still test us, regardless of the state of prophecy in the Nation of Israel (below I explain a bit more on other forms of prophcy).

First, (Isaiah 11:12) says: "And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth." Which proclaims that when the Moshiach comes, all the Jews will be returned to Eretz Yisroel.

Second, The era of prophecy officially came to an end some 23 centuries ago. The last generation of prophets were those who began to prophecy before the First Holy Temple was destroyed in 423 BCE, though a number of that generation survived the 70-year Babylonian exile and lived to see the building of the Second Temple. Most famously, Ezekiel prophesied in Babylonia, and three prophets, Chaggai, Zachariah and Malachi, were members of the "Great Assembly" that led the people in the first years of the return from Babylon. Mordechai and Esther were also members of the long-lived generation that mourned the destruction of the First Temple and witnessed the building of the second. With the demise of that generation, "prophecy departed from Israel."

Nevertheless, the principle that "G-d communicates to mankind through prophecy" remains a foundation of the Jewish faith. A lesser form of prophecy, known as ruach hakodesh (divine inspiration), remains the province of the tzaddikim, the righteous men and women of all generations. According to tradition, one of the greatest prophets, Elijah, never died, and will herald the coming of the Moshiach. Moshiach himself is a prophet ("approaching the prophecy of Moses" according to Maimonides), and in the messianic era, prophecy will become a universal phenomenon -- in the words of the prophet Joel, "And it shall come to pass afterwards that I will pour out My spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and daughters shall prophecy; your elders shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions."

thirdwatch512

04-24-2007, 04:01 AM

very interesting, and thanks for the response!!

it seems that from a Jewish perspective, when the messiah comes there will be some major changes, for the good :)

rav

04-24-2007, 11:30 PM

Shalom,

Originally Posted by thirdwatch512

very interesting, and thanks for the response!!

it seems that from a Jewish perspective, when the messiah comes there will be some major changes, for the good :)

Indeed it will be quite an amazing time. However, the ignorant of our world, who are to brainwashed too comprehend the coming of the Moshiach will be existent. For example, the Rambam writes:

If a king will arise from the House of David who delves deeply into the study of the Torah and, like David his ancestor, observes its mitzvos as prescribed by the Written Law and the Oral Law; if he will compel all of Israel to walk in [the way of the Torah] and repair the breaches [in its observance]; and if he will fight the wars of G-d; - we may, with assurance, consider him Moshiach.

Therefore, we can infer that he will have some opposition against him, by those who refuse to see the clearness of G-d's plan. He continues writing about the "false moshiachs" as an original question asked, who are here to test us:

"If he did not succeed to this degree or he was killed, he surely is not [the redeemer] promised by the Torah. [Rather,] he should be considered as all the other proper and legitimate kings of the Davidic dynasty who died. G-d only caused him to arise in order to test the multitude. As it is written [Daniel 11:35], "Some of the wise men will stumble, to purge, to refine, and to clarify, until the appointed time, for it is yet to come."

"Jesus of Nazareth who aspired to be the Moshiach and was executed by the court was also spoken of in Daniel's prophecies [Daniel 11:14], "The renegades among your people shall exalt themselves in an attempt to fulfill the vision, but they shall stumble."

"Can there be a greater stumbling block than [Christianity]? All the prophets spoke of Moshiach as the redeemer of Israel and their savior, who would gather their dispersed ones and strengthen their [observance of] the mitzvos. In contrast [the founder of Christianity] caused the Jews to be slain by the sword, their remnants to be scattered and humiliated, the Torah to be altered, and the majority of the world to err and serve a god other than the L-rd."

"Nevertheless, the intent of the Creator of the world is not within the power of man to comprehend, for [to paraphrase Yeshayahu 55:8] His ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts our thoughts. [Ultimately,] all the deeds of Jesus of Nazareth and that Ishmaelite [i.e. Mohammed] who arose after him will only serve to pave the way for the coming of Moshiach and for the improvement of the entire world, [motivating the nations] to serve G-d together, as it is written [Zephaniah 3:9], "I will make the peoples pure of speech so that they will all call upon the Name of G-d and serve Him with one purpose."

"How will this come about? The entire world has already become filled with talk of [the supposed] Messiah, as well as of the Torah and the mitzvos. These matters have been spread among many spiritually insensitive nations, who discuss these matters as well as the mitzvos of the Torah. Some of them [i.e. the Christians] say: "These commandments were true, but are not in force in the present age; they are not applicable for all time." Others [i.e. the Moslems] say: "Implied in the commandments are hidden concepts that cannot be understood simply; the Messiah has already come and revealed them."

"When the true Messiah king will arise and prove successful, his [position becoming] exalted and uplifted, they will all return and realize that their ancestors endowed them with a false heritage; their prophets and ancestors cause them to err."

Therefore we must be patient and wait for the Moshiach to come. In that Era there will be neither famine nor war, neither envy nor competition, for good things will flow in abundance and all the delights will be as freely available as dust. The occupation of the entire world will be solely to know G-d. The Jews will therefore be great sages and know the hidden matters, and will attain an understanding of their Creator to the [full] extent of human potential; as it is written [Yeshayahu 11:9], "For the world will be filled with the knowledge of G-d as the waters cover the ocean bed."

ManchesterFolk

04-25-2007, 09:00 PM

Genesis 3:9 says: Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"

Why did God ask a question like "where are you"? He did not know where Adam was?

rav

04-25-2007, 09:40 PM

Shalom Aleichem ManchesterFolk, you wrote:

Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk

Genesis 3:9 says: Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"

Why did God ask a question like "where are you"? He did not know where Adam was?

There is actually a very interesting story about this verse.

In 1798, Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi was imprisoned on charges that his teachings undermined the imperial authority of the czar. For 52 days he was held in the Peter-Paul Fortress in Petersburg.

Among the Rebbe's interrogators was a government minister who possessed broad knowledge of the Bible and of Jewish studies. On one occasion, he asked the Rebbe to explain the verse, "G-d called out to the man and said to him: Where are you?" Did G-d not know where Adam was?

Rabbi Schneur Zalman presented the classic explanation offered by the commentaries: the question "Where are you?" was merely a "conversation opener" on the part of G-d, who did not wish to unnerve Adam by immediately confronting him with his wrongdoing.

"Rashi also points out that Hashem knew where Adam was. However, The Almighty wanted to begin the conversation gently. He gave Adam a chance to warm up and relax. Then He asked him the question about the Eitz Ha'daas (Tree of Knowledge). With this introduction, Adam HaRishon would not be afraid to answer. He might even admit his sin and do teshuva. For Hashem does not want to punish sinners, rather He wants them to do teshuva. Rashi mentions three other examples of Hashem beginning a conversation gently. He adds that the proper way (to converse) is not to begin abruptly."

"What Rashi says, I already know," said the minister. "I wish to hear how the Rebbe understands the verse."

"Do you believe that the Torah is eternal?" asked the Rebbe. "That its every word applies to every individual, under all conditions, at all times?"

"Yes," replied the minister.

Rabbi Schneur Zalman was extremely gratified to hear this. The czar's minister had affirmed a principle which lies at the basis of our teachings--the very teachings for which he, Rabbi Schneur Zalman, was standing trial.

"Where are you?" explained the Rebbe, "is G-d's perpetual call to every man. Where are you in the world? What have you accomplished? You have been allotted a certain number of days, hours, and minutes in which to fulfill your mission in life. You have lived so many years and so many days--Rabbi Schneur Zalman spelled out the exact age of the minister--Where are you? What have you attained?"

ManchesterFolk

04-29-2007, 03:19 AM

Does Judaism consider any valid messages to appear in dreams?

rav

04-29-2007, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk

Does Judaism consider any valid messages to appear in dreams?

Shalom Manchester,

The halachah (Jewish Law) is nowadays that we do not consider our dreams messages. If you did have a bad dream, that is, a dream that described harm coming to you or someone close to you, you can say hatavas chalom (it's in the siddur [prayerbook]). If necessary, you can even fast a taanis chalom.

Dreams are sometimes things our soul picks up while it "travels" upstairs during the night, but usually they are just plain meaningless psycho-biological random activities of the brain. Even when the dreams do come from a real source, they are always mixed in with some nonsense, so there is no way of knowing what is real and what is not. At least not for people like us.

It’s not true what you often hear about signs that your dream is true, such as having it 3 time sin a row, etc.

ManchesterFolk

05-04-2007, 01:40 AM

May I ask what kind of Deity, wishes to be worshiped three times a day like Jews do? I mean, does He need the ego boost? Serious question... looking for an answer.

Kashnowe

05-04-2007, 03:04 PM

Basically! That is why we hold such respect for your religion!

To behave justly in all relationships, and to establish courts of justice.
To refrain from blaspheming Gods name.
To refrain from practicing idolatry.
To avoid immoral practices, specifically incest and adultery.
To avoid shedding the blood of ones fellow man.
To refrain from robbing ones fellow man.
To refrain from eating a limb torn from a live animal.

what if breaks one or many of these laws? are they doomed for hell?
how do you repent?

what exactly is a limb torn from a live animal?
you mean tearing a limb before actually killing the poor creature?
or like limbs as in legs i.e. leg of lamb......?

Kashnowe

05-04-2007, 03:29 PM

i am confused between these two quotes. can you clarify?

lavikor201:
4) JEWISH BELIEF IS BASED SOLELY ON NATIONAL REVELATION

Of the 15,000 religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation -- i.e. G-d speaking to the entire nation. If G-d is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person.

Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that G-d sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).

Maimonides states (Foundations of Torah, ch. 8):

The Jews did not believe in Moses, our teacher, because of the miracles he performed. Whenever anyone's belief is based on seeing miracles, he has lingering doubts, because it is possible the miracles were performed through magic or sorcery. All of the miracles performed by Moses in the desert were because they were necessary, and not as proof of his prophecy.

What then was the basis of [Jewish] belief? The Revelation at Mount Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, not dependent on the testimony of others... as it says, "Face to face, God spoke with you..." The Torah also states: "G-d did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us -- who are all here alive today." (Deut. 5:3)

Judaism is not miracles. It is the personal eyewitness experience of every man, woman and child, standing at Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago.

and

rebelishaulam:
The scriptures lavikor, only call on Israel who witnessed G-d's deeds to follow and keep his laws. No other nation is threatened or blamed for not accepting the Torah/Law; they are not obligated to, for they did not witness the miracles which prove the truth of the Torah/Law. Moses did not demand that the children of Israel should believe in him, for none of them ever disputed the truth of the law, which they had witnessed together with him. But the books of Islam and Christianity vehemently curse everyone in the world who disbelieves them although they did not demonstrate their proofs to the whole world.

i am confused

Kashnowe

05-04-2007, 03:38 PM

The Catholic belief is that prayer must be directed through an intermediary -- i.e. confessing one's sins to a priest. Jesus himself is an intermediary, as Jesus said: "No man cometh unto the Father but by me."

i always understood this quote "No man cometh unto the Father but by me" to mean no man can get to heaven unless he acknowledges Jesus is the Messiah. i never put it together with prayer.

i'm not exactly sure how the vatican stands on this but just showing how i interpret this.

so how does a Jew ask for forgiveness?

Grace Seeker

05-04-2007, 03:38 PM

Can you give me a link to the 613 laws that Jews are to keep?

snakelegs

05-05-2007, 01:06 AM

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

ManchesterFolk

05-05-2007, 02:35 AM

i got one: why do you think that God sends a soul to be Jewish? since after reading it seems like jews dont just believe in straight up heaven and hell

north_malaysian

05-05-2007, 03:49 AM

Originally Posted by jamaaljad

i got one: why do you think that God sends a soul to be Jewish? since after reading it seems like jews dont just believe in straight up heaven and hell

Because they are the "chosen people" to follow those 613 laws..... for them... we, the Gentiles only need to follow the 7 Noahide Laws in order to be rewarded heaven....

Maybe they can answer your question tomorrow as they are observing Shabbath today.

ManchesterFolk

05-05-2007, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by north_malaysian

yeah but what i was saying is why send someone to be born jewish. both can go to heaven so why does he chose a specific person to be a jew born from jewish family, instead of someone being born into a non-jew family and having less repsonsibilty/laws.

Grace Seeker

05-06-2007, 02:48 AM

Originally Posted by jamaaljad

Would I be correct in guessing that Jews aren't as focused on going to heaven as Christians appear to be? That life is about more than just finding the right fire insurance? And that living for God while on this earth is not a burden but a calling, one that is received joyfully as a privilege?

rav

05-06-2007, 04:37 PM

Wow, I did not expect such a huge amount of questions to amass. I am still indeed on my trip, but I was in the process of posting an article I had just written for a counter-Christian missionary site. I peeked in here and all of a sudden there is an entire page of questions! With G-d’s help I will answer all of them appropriately.

Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk

May I ask what kind of Deity, wishes to be worshiped three times a day like Jews do? I mean, does He need the ego boost? Serious question... looking for an answer.

Shalom Manchesterfolk,

Prayer is not for the sake of G-d. G-d does not need an ego book, nor does he need us to pray. Prayer is entirely for the sake of the man praying. When you pray three things occur that benefit you:

1. You are reminded of G-d. Morning prayers especially are necessary because you begin your day by reminded yourself about G-d, and without this reminder, then you’re possibly more prone to transgress G-d’s laws, because you did not have that reminder. The afternoon and evening prayers serve us as the same thing under thus first concept, that we in general need reminders of G-d since we are not perfect.

2. Closeness to G-d. He wants us to pray and have confidence in Him. This principle certainly applies to couples that are barren. From the shemayisrael site: The following is a story told by the prophet Elijah.

Once when I was traveling from place to place, I came across an old man who asked me the following question: "Rabbi, why does it happen that some Jewish families are unable to have children?"

I said to him, "My son, it is because G-d loves them with a complete love, and He is happy with them and purifies them with this suffering, and so that they will ask Him for mercy. Go and learn this from Avraham and Sarah, who were barren for seventy-five years before Isaac was born. They prayed so much for mercy until Isaac was born, which made them so happy. Go and learn from Isaac and Rebecca who were barren for twenty years. They prayed so much for mercy until Ya'akov was born which made them so happy. Go and learn this from Rachel, who was barren for fourteen years until her two children were born. She prayed so much for mercy until they both came. Go and learn from Chana who was barren for nineteen years and six months until Samuel was born; and she was made so happy with him.
(YALKUT LECH LECHA 78, from TANA D'VEI ELIYAHU)

Eliahu's words need explanation. Why would G-d prevent people from having children if He loves them? What does it mean that He purifies them? What proof do we have of this from all the tzaddikim that Eliyahu mentions?

G-d prevents people from having children only because He loves them. True fulfillment in this world is being a complete person who is close to G-d. All of the mitzvos that we do are intended to bring us close to Him. This is also true for prayer. When someones needs something badly, he prays with such great intensity that consequently he comes closer to G-d. The more one needs something, the more intensely he prays.

Consequently, the person comes closer to G-d through his prayers and through his anguish. When G-d loves someone, he wants to give them the gift of being close to Him.

3. G-d wants to gran our requests. Jews believe that G-d will take action in response to prayer, and a teaching from the rabbis tells us that the more we ask G-d to help us, the more G-d will love us. (Midrash Tehillim 4:3)

These are three basic reasons, and if you wish for more depth, I could try to provide it.

Originally Posted by cooloonka

what if breaks one or many of these laws? are they doomed for hell?
how do you repent?
what exactly is a limb torn from a live animal?
you mean tearing a limb before actually killing the poor creature?
or like limbs as in legs i.e. leg of lamb......?

Originally Posted by cooloonka

i am confused between these two quotes. can you clarify? ialways understood this quote "No man cometh unto the Father but by me" to mean no man can get to heaven unless he acknowledges Jesus is the Messiah. i never put it together with prayer.

i'm not exactly sure how the vatican stands on this but just showing how i interpret this.

so how does a Jew ask for forgiveness?

Shalom cooloonka,

Your first post, a limb torn from an animal while alive means exactly how it sounds.

Your first point of your second post, I am not sure what exactly is in need of clarification. Could you be a bit more specific?

Pertaining to your second point of your second post, I am not sure, nor do I have an opinion on that verse. I do know that Catholicism does believe in an intermediary for prayer, to the best of my knowledge.

And Jews or any human for that matter asks for forgiveness by doing so in prayer, directly to G-d. Then the person tries to correct his mistakes, and proves his genuine intention of wanting to be forgiven through his deeds.

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Can you give me a link to the 613 laws that Jews are to keep?

Shalom Grace Seeker,

The best link I can give you is this one: http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=411&o=91&dns=1

Originally Posted by jamaaljad

i got one: why do you think that God sends a soul to be Jewish? since after reading it seems like jews dont just believe in straight up heaven and hell

Originally Posted by jamaaljad

Shalom jamaaljad,

You bring up a very deep concept, one spoken about a lot and one of the first things mentioned in the Tanya. It is brought up in the Tanya-Likutei Amarim Ch.1:

Before a Jew is born an oath is administered to him in heaven, charging him:

תהי צדיק ואל תהי רשע, ואפילו כל העולםכולו אומרים לך צדיק אתה היה בעיניך כרשע

‘Be righteous and be not wicked; and even if the whole world judging you by your actions tells you that you are righteous, regard yourself as wicked.’”

The soul of a Jew descends into a body for a purpose — in order to fulfill a specific spiritual mission in this world. To enable him to fulfill it a heavenly oath is administered to him that he “be righteous and not wicked,” and concurrently, that he regard himself as wicked and not righteous. The root (שׁבע) of the verb משׁביעים (“an oath is administered”) is virtually identical with the root (‏שׂבע) of the verb משׂביעים (“one causes [him] to be sated”). Accordingly, the oath charging him to be righteous may also be understood to mean that the soul is thereby invested (“sated”) with the power that enables it to fulfill its destiny in life on earth.

Only G-d truly knows why he sent us to accomplish a certain task on earth. If in one life we could not completely elevate our soul to the proper level, we could be sent back if G-d decided to fulfill a certain element that we did not accomplish in our last life. Therefore the answer if not really known to us, all we can infer is what the Holy texts teach us “The soul of a Jew descends into a body for a purpose — in order to fulfill a specific spiritual mission in this world.” The same way that the soul of someone is sent to the body of a non-Jew to complete an equally holy, and spiritual mission here on earth.

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Shalom again Grace Seeker,

An interesting saying is in Pirkei Avos Ch. 4, Mishna 22b:

"He [Rabbi Yaakov] used to say, one hour of repentance and good deeds in this world is better than the entire life of the World to Come. And one hour of bliss in the World to Come is better than the entire life of this world."

This philosophy is a very deep, but powerful teaching. In the world to come you can no longer accomplish everything. What you reaped in this world is what defines your bliss in the world to come. Therefore, what we do in this world is very important, because it defines what the world to come is for us. If we sit in this world and ponder on heaven all day, and do not accomplish anything, then what will our world to come be?

*~Sofia~*

05-06-2007, 09:00 PM

:sl: (peace)

well today I went past a building which is used as Jewish community hall/building. and there was a HUGE fire they had set, just outside, and there were men praying near it, and loads of children just surrounding the area.. i went past another jewish building, and they had dun the same thing, set a fire, and were surrounding it. i just wanted to know what they were doing? is it some sort of religious ceremony thingy? i was just curious dats all, and was hoping sum1, sumwhere cud give me an answer.

jazakallah (many thanks)

:w:

rav

05-07-2007, 10:07 AM

I'm still on a trip (my kids have not gotten up from sleep yet) so I can answer briefly.

Originally Posted by SM1987

Shalom SM1987,

What you saw was most likely Lag BaOmer festivities.

Lag BaOmer, the 33rd day of the Omer Count -- this year, May 6, 2007 -- is a festive day on the Jewish calendar, celebrated with outings (on which the children traditionally play with bow and arrows ), bonfires, and other joyous events. Many visit the resting place (in Miron in Northern Israel) of the great sage and mystic Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai, whose yahrzeit (anniversary of his passing) the day marks.

Lag BaOmer also commemorates another joyous event. The Talmud relates that in the weeks between Passover and Shavuot a plague raged amongst the disciples of the great sage Rabbi Akiva "because they did not act respectfully towards each other"; these weeks are therefore observed as a period of mourning, with various joyous activities proscribed by law and custom. On Lag BaOmer the dying ceased. Thus Lag BaOmer also carries the theme of Ahavat Yisrael, the imperative to love and respect one's fellow.

*~Sofia~*

05-07-2007, 08:33 PM

peace Rav,

thank u very much for getting back to me.. very much appreciated. It makes sense now..i guess the curiousity got the better of me! lol neway many thanks

peace

Sunnih

05-07-2007, 10:53 PM

I have come across a verse:

Any who touch the mountain shall be put to death. (Exodus 19:12)

I wander if jews are not allowed to touch it.

Kashnowe

05-10-2007, 02:13 AM

do jews believe that the messiah will be a man and nothing else? ( i mean not God as christians believe Jesus is.)

rav

05-10-2007, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by cooloonka

do jews believe that the messiah will be a man and nothing else? ( i mean not God as christians believe Jesus is.)

Shalom, Moshiach will be a man. To believe what the Christians do is idol worship.

rav

05-10-2007, 06:29 PM

In response to: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...t-egypt-3.html

Shalom (Peace),

The major prophecies of Yeshezkel specifically are not supposed to come true until the days of Moshiach. So writes the Abarbanel, the Malbim and the Tosfos Yom Tov.

You really need to see the basic meforshim on the pesukim. Like the Rashi, Radak and Malbim. It’s not agreed upon that this pharaoh said he made the Nile - there are other interpretations; it’s also not positive when this nevuah happened, or is supposed to happen. The simplest explanation is that it is referring to the destruction of Egypt that happened after tzur (tyre), but interpretations vary all the way to allusions to techiyas hameisim. PLEASE get an english Navi with some meforshim and read it. I wish you understood Hebrew as it would be thousands of times easier to clarify the poetic, figurative and allegorical nature of the verses we are discussing. The cultural differences are so enormous, that to make claims based on the English “translation” will not lead to accuracy. The best example I have seen which I will relate to you is that in the English language a saying goes “it is raining cats and dogs”. This motto speaks about how it is raining very heavily. However, translated into Hebrew, any Hebrew speaker who did not understand English, and the motto, would literally translate such a saying to mean that cats and dogs were literally falling upon the earth. They would laugh at anyone who tried to explain this in a metaphor. The case we have right now, is very similar in many aspects. Thanks.

I know that you will most likely bring up that different attributes of the names mentioned are in the passage which should be proof that the prophecy was supposed to be fulfilled in that time epoch; nevertheless, that is not the case. The language is highly poetic, and it is not very infrequent. The Gemara, tells stories of an eagles feathers and the burning sensations on them, and they the passage is not referring to an eagle at all, but instead surrounding governments. (As an example).

It is very difficult to explain this all to someone who does not have the understanding of the Hebrew language and metaphors used within it, to be able to decipher and look beyond what the literal text tells us. The Torah was written for man, and is not in the heavens but on earth, therefore, it is written in language man can understand, and is written using examples that men can understand. It is tough for me to explain how Hebrew metaphors work, and the different mystical concepts described in the passage (I have been reading various seforim on the passage.) I must tell you though, that the prophecy is yet to come.

snakelegs

05-11-2007, 01:13 AM

shalom,
can you tell me when the mishna was codified and when the babylonian and the jerusalem talmuds were completed?
also, do both share the same mishna text and just the gemorah is different?
also what was the year of the destruction of the 1st temple?
thanks!

Kashnowe

05-11-2007, 03:31 AM

if jesus is not a prophet to the jews (as he is to muslims) then who was the last prophet to walk the earth?

do jews believe that more prophets are coming some time or another?

where can i find reference to the end of times according to judaism?

rav

05-16-2007, 02:23 AM

shalom,

can you tell me when the mishna was codified and when the babylonian and the jerusalem talmuds were completed?
also, do both share the same mishna text and just the gemorah is different?
also what was the year of the destruction of the 1st temple?
thanks!

Shalom (Peace) snakelegs,

In response to your first question, off the top of my head I believe the Mishna was codified in the early third century and the Babylonian Talmud at the end of the fifth century CE. The Mishna and Gemara do share the same Mishna text, and the year of the destruction of the first Beis Hamikdash was pillaged many times. The exact dates are provided by wikipedia, although I cannot verify the strict accuracy of the dates currently, I would presuppose they are precise.

According to the Bible, the temple was pillaged many times during the course of its history (dates before Ahaz are approximate):

by king Shishak of Egypt, c.933 BCE (1 Kings 14:25, 26);
by king Asa of Judah, c.900 BCE in order to persuade Ben-Hadad I of Damascus to come to his aid against Baasha of Israel (1 Kings 15:9-24);
by king Jehoash of Judah, c. 825 BCE, in order to pay Hazael of Damascus, who was besieging the city (2 Kings 12:17-18);
by king Joash of Israel, c.790 BCE (2 Kings 14:14);
by king Ahaz of Judah, 734 BCE, to persuade Tiglath-pileser III of Assyria to come to his aid against Pekah of Israel and Rezin II of Damascus (2 Kings 16:8, 17, 18);
by king Hezekiah of Judah, 712 BCE, to pay king Sennacherib of Assyria, who was besieging the city (2 Kings 18:15, 16).
by king Nebuchadnezzar II of Babylon who pillaged it twice- once in 597 BCE, and again in 586 BCE, after which he destroyed it (2 Kings 24:13; 2 Chr. 36:7). He burned the temple, and carried all its treasures with him to Babylon (2 Kings 25:9-17; 2 Chr. 36:19; Isaiah 64:11).

if jesus is not a prophet to the jews (as he is to muslims) then who was the last prophet to walk the earth?

do jews believe that more prophets are coming some time or another?

where can i find reference to the end of times according to judaism?

Shalom (Peace) cooloonka,

The last prophets were Haggai, Zachariah and Malachi. As Jews, we believe that the Moshiach will arrive in the future to rebuild to HolyTemple (Beis Hamikdosh) and accomplish many other tasks.

An outstanding article which you could read on the “end times” is this:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=108400

جوري

05-16-2007, 02:57 AM

Salaam Alykoum Ravi.. what about the son of zachria (yahya) also known as john the Baptist.. do the Jews not consider him a prophet as well? why or why not? and what is your take on salome?

if you believe prophet Zachria had a son, do you have a similar account of him as we do in Islam?

يَا زَكَرِيَّا إِنَّا نُبَشِّرُكَ بِغُلَامٍ اسْمُهُ يَحْيَى لَمْ نَجْعَل لَّهُ مِن قَبْلُ سَمِيًّا {7}

[Pickthal 19:7] (It was said unto him): O Zachariah! Lo! We bring thee tidings of a son whose name is John; we have given the same name to none before (him).

قَالَ رَبِّ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي غُلَامٌ وَكَانَتِ امْرَأَتِي عَاقِرًا وَقَدْ بَلَغْتُ مِنَ الْكِبَرِ عِتِيًّا {8}

[Pickthal 19:8] He said: My Lord! How can I have a son when my wife is barren and I have reached infirm old age?

قَالَ كَذَلِكَ قَالَ رَبُّكَ هُوَ عَلَيَّ هَيِّنٌ وَقَدْ خَلَقْتُكَ مِن قَبْلُ وَلَمْ تَكُ شَيْئًا {9}

[Pickthal 19:9] He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me, even as I created thee before, when thou wast naught.

قَالَ رَبِّ اجْعَل لِّي آيَةً قَالَ آيَتُكَ أَلَّا تُكَلِّمَ النَّاسَ ثَلَاثَ لَيَالٍ سَوِيًّا {10}

[Pickthal 19:10] He said: My Lord! Appoint for me some token. He said: Thy token is that thou, with no bodily defect, shalt not speak unto mankind three nights.

فَخَرَجَ عَلَى قَوْمِهِ مِنَ الْمِحْرَابِ فَأَوْحَى إِلَيْهِمْ أَن سَبِّحُوا بُكْرَةً وَعَشِيًّا {11}

[Pickthal 19:11] Then he came forth unto his people from the sanctuary, and signified to them: Glorify your Lord at break of day and fall of night.

يَا يَحْيَى خُذِ الْكِتَابَ بِقُوَّةٍ وَآتَيْنَاهُ الْحُكْمَ صَبِيًّا {12}

[Pickthal 19:12] (And it was said unto his son): O John! Hold fast the Scripture. And we gave him wisdom when a child,

وَحَنَانًا مِّن لَّدُنَّا وَزَكَاةً وَكَانَ تَقِيًّا {13}

[Pickthal 19:13] And compassion from Our presence, and purity; and he was devout,

وَبَرًّا بِوَالِدَيْهِ وَلَمْ يَكُن جَبَّارًا عَصِيًّا {14}

[Pickthal 19:14] And dutiful toward his parents. And he was not arrogant, rebellious.

وَسَلَامٌ عَلَيْهِ يَوْمَ وُلِدَ وَيَوْمَ يَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَ يُبْعَثُ حَيًّا {15}

[Pickthal 19:15] Peace on him the day he was born, and the day he dieth and the day he shall be raised alive!

thank you
peace!!

snakelegs

05-16-2007, 11:52 PM

shalom rav,
thanks for your reply. yes, that was a good article. i am just beginning to discover all the good stuff at chabad.org

Kashnowe

05-17-2007, 12:26 AM

thanks rav! i love a good read.

Abu Zakariya

05-17-2007, 10:05 AM

Isn't Chabad a Lubavitcher sect? I thought, by the previous posts, that they were considered out of mainstream Judaism because many of them consider their dead leader to be the Messiah?

rav

05-17-2007, 03:26 PM

Salaam Alykoum Ravi.. what about the son of zachria (yahya) also known as john the Baptist.. do the Jews not consider him a prophet as well? why or why not? and what is your take on salome?

Shalom Eleichem PurestAmbrosia,

We do not believe John the Baptist to be a prophet.

Isn't Chabad a Lubavitcher sect? I thought, by the previous posts, that they were considered out of mainstream Judaism because many of them consider their dead leader to be the Messiah?

Shalom Abu Zakariya,

Some of the adherents to the Chabad philosophies of Judaism do hold that Rabbi Shneerson was the Messiah. They are considered heretics by Judaism and all of the major gedolim. However, the major Rabbonim have also stated that Lubvaitchers who do not hold that he is the Messiah are not heretics, so therefore the information from Chabad resources I will present will at all times be from a halachicly established source. Chabad.org is operated by the Chabad Rabbi's who were students of Rabbi Yosef Yitzkhak Kazen, who was not a messianist, therefore, his opinions are legitimate.

Although controversy surrounds the faction, we must always remind ourselves that the heretics are a loud minority.

rav

05-21-2007, 03:00 PM

Shalom! The Jewish holiday of Shavout is approaching. On this holiday and me and millions of fellow Jews will literally study Torah all night. I begin at 8:45 PM and will end around 5:45 AM. I will then sleep for an hour or so before morning prayers for the Yom Tov begin at 10:00 AM. It is a great holiday. Here is a good article on the Yom Tov (Holiday).

What is Shavuot?
by Rabbi Mendy Hecht

A. Shavuot (Weeks, pronounced shah-VOO-oat) is a Jewish holiday that simultaneously commemorates two things: the reaping of the spring wheat harvest and the Giving of the Torah. It is called Pentecost in English, and always falls on the sixth and seventh of the Hebrew month of Sivan.

B. Shavuot is the second of the Shloshah Regalim, or Three Pilgrimages, at which every Jewish male was required to present himself in the Beit Hamikdash, the Temple. The Torah1 prohibits work on this holiday, during which all Shabbat prohibitions are in force with the exception of preparing food and carrying in public.

C. Shavuot also caps off the Counting of the Omer, the 49-day count which starts with the second day of Passover, the day when the First Barley Offering was offered in the Temple. Though the Temple no longer stands, the omer must be counted even without the offering.

How do I celebrate Shavuot?

1. Study All Night

You've done that in college anyway, haven't you? We’ve all had times when we stayed up to the wee hours of the morning, cramming for that exam or playing our favorite sci-fi shoot-em-up on that old PC. Now, how about doing it for Torah? That's just the idea of this age-old custom, in which Jews show their love for Torah by studying it from dark to dawn the first night of the holiday. The reason? The night before the Torah was given, our forefathers warmed their mattresses when they should have been sleepless with excitement over the next day's big event. To cosmically correct this, we stay up and study, preferably in large groups, and preferably at your local synagogue.

2. Package for You

Go to Shul to pick it up. The physical Giving of the Torah was a one-time event. But every year, the Torah is spiritually given anew. To all Jews. To receive the Torah for yourself, head to your nearest synagogue to hear the Ten Commandments read.

http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=593&o=219

Abu Zakariya

05-21-2007, 03:23 PM

It reminds me of Laylatul Qadr which is the night in which the Qur'an was revealed so Muslims usually spend the whole night reading the Qur'an and doing other acts of worship.

But it's not a holiday per se, we only have two + the day of Friday. How many holidays do you have?

Balthasar21

05-21-2007, 03:25 PM

What is a jew and where did the word jew come from ?

00:00

05-21-2007, 04:57 PM

Dont jews believe that u cant be a jew, unless u born from a jewish mother.

Kittygyal

05-21-2007, 05:00 PM

Salamualikum.
'Questions about Judaism answered by a Jew! ' just read that NOW sowiee
Ma'assalama

00:00

05-21-2007, 05:04 PM

Thats what i heard anyway.

Kittygyal

05-21-2007, 05:04 PM

Salamualikum.
'Questions about Judaism answered by a Jew! ' just read that NOW sowiee
Ma'assalama

rav

05-21-2007, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by Balthasar21

What is a jew and where did the word jew come from ?

Shalom (Peace),

To be short and sweet, a Jew is someone who had a mother, or mother and father who was Jewish, (or converted) and is therefore responsible to follow the 613 laws of the Torah, instead of the mere 7 that non-Jews are suppose to follow. However, all gentiles if they wish can convert, but it is not necessary and Rabbi's many times will reject a potential convert for there own benefit because if they convert and follow no laws, then they were better off with less responsibility being a non-Jew. As was written a while ago in this thread:

The scriptures, only call on Israel who witnessed G-d's deeds to follow and keep his laws. No other nation is threatened or blamed for not accepting the Torah/Law; they are not obligated to, for they did not witness the miracles which prove the truth of the Torah/Law! Moses did not demand that the children of Israel should believe in him, for none of them ever disputed the truth of the law, which they had witnessed together with him. But the books of Islam and Christianity vehemently curse everyone in the world who disbelieves them although they did not demonstrate their proofs to the whole world. Judaism says the non-Jews who did not recieve the proofs that the Torah is divine do not need to follow it. They just have to follow the seven laws of basic morality.

However, Judaism is not a message for one people as much as you believe Islam is only meant for Arabs around where Mohammad lived, since any can convert if they wish. We just believe you do not need to, and when rejecting a potential convert, we are out for that non-Jews best interest.

1. The majority of "Jews" today are descended from the tribes of Judah and Benjamin -- the two tribes who comprised the "Kingdom of Judea." Also a considerable number of Kohanim and Levites -- members of the tribe of Levi -- are amongst today's Jewish population. The cities where they dwelt were interspersed amongst both kingdoms. Of the first things that come to mind when thinking about Moshiach, is the Return of the Ten Lost Tribes who were exiled and separated from the rest of Jewry, thousands of years ago.

The Ten Tribes were exiled during the First Temple Era – over 2,500 years ago, and have been separated from the rest of Jewry ever since. But ultimately, with the arrival of the Messianic Era, they too will be redeemed, and will join the rest of Jewry.

In Hebrew, the word "Jew" (Yehudi) is a clear derivative of the word Judah ("Yehudah").

2. As mentioned, the name "Jew" comes from the Hebrew word "Yehudi."

The Talmud (Megillah 13a) says that the name Yehudi applies to anyone who rejects idolatry and accepts the one true G-d. (The word "Hoda'ah," which is the root of the word Yehudi (and Yehudah), means to acknowledge). That's why Mordechai, a descendant of the tribe of Benjamin, was called a Yehudi (Esther 2:5).

Originally Posted by 00:00

Dont jews believe that u cant be a jew, unless u born from a jewish mother.

Shalom,

That is not the case. If you are born from a Jewish mother, than you’re born into the covenant. If not, you can still convert, although, Judaism says that non-Jews can and will go to heaven if they are righteous, and therefore, conversion without intent to do the laws is bad, and it is in your best interest that you not convert.

YEh

05-22-2007, 04:51 AM

Jacob Wrestles With God
22 That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. 24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak."
But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."

27 The man asked him, "What is your name?"
"Jacob," he answered.

28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, [e] because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."

29 Jacob said, "Please tell me your name."
But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there.

30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, [f] saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

From this story, i'm just wondering does it say here that God became a man and wrestled with Jacob and God blesed him according to Judaism ?

Also is it true that you believe the Messiah will save (be their saviour) the Jewish people from it's enemies ?

rav

05-22-2007, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by YEh

Shalom,

The passage says:

"Jacob was left alone; and a man wrestled with him until daybreak. When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he struck him on the hip socket; and Jacob's hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. Then he said, "Let me go, for the day is breaking." But Jacob said, "I will not let you go, unless you bless me." So he said to him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Jacob." Then the man said, "You shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with humans, and have prevailed." Then Jacob asked him, "Please tell me your name." But he said, "Why is it that you ask my name?" And there he blessed him. So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life is preserved.""- Genesis 32:24-30

Christians like to say here that Jacob wrestled a physical G-d in the flesh. They get this from the last line that says "seen G-d face to face." However, up until this point the person Jacob wrestles with is called simply "a man." Christians reconcile this by saying that this was actually a pre-incarnate Jesus, who is both man and G-d.

However, if this passage seems unclear because of the last passage, all you need to do is look to Hosea. Hosea recounts this event, and uses words that cannot be twisted to support the Christian position.

"Now the Lord has a contention with Judah, and to visit upon Jacob according to his ways; according to his deeds He shall recompense him. In the womb, he seized his brother's heel, and with his strength he strove with an angel." - Hosea 12:3-4

There it is, plain as day. Jacob wrestled with an angel, not a mangod.

YEh

05-23-2007, 04:27 AM

Originally Posted by rav

There it is, plain as day. Jacob wrestled with an angel, not a mangod.

I see...

Is this the same event but different accounts then when Jacob was renamed Israel ?

Genesis 32
But Jacob said, "I will not let you go, unless you bless me." So he said to him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Jacob." Then the man said, "You shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with humans, and have prevailed." Then Jacob asked him, "Please tell me your name." But he said, "Why is it that you ask my name?" And there he blessed him.

Genesis 35
9 After Jacob returned from Paddan Aram, [c] God appeared to him again and blessed him. 10 God said to him, "Your name is Jacob, [d] but you will no longer be called Jacob; your name will be Israel. [e] " So he named him Israel.

Also in Hebrew, what words are used for God in both passages ?
Is it the same as when G-d is used in other passages where G-d speaks ?
Also when the Bible refers to a person and calls him a 'son of god' is it using the same word as G-d ?

Thanks for your answers so far :statisfie

YEh

05-23-2007, 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by rav

There it is, plain as day. Jacob wrestled with an angel, not a mangod.

What about this passage ?

Exodus 3
Moses and the Burning Bush

1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, "I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up."

4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!"
And Moses said, "Here I am."

5 "Do not come any closer," God said. "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground." 6 Then he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob." At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

Doesn't this state that "the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush".
Then it says that "God called to him from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!" "
So it makes it clear that the angel of the LORD and God is the same person. Then to make sure you cannot mistake it "Then he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob".

So the angel in the Burning Bush and The God of Abraham is the same person ?

How do you interpret it ?

YEh

YEh

05-23-2007, 05:39 AM

Genesis 16
7 The angel of the LORD found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur. 8 And he said, "Hagar, servant of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?"
"I'm running away from my mistress Sarai," she answered.

9 Then the angel of the LORD told her, "Go back to your mistress and submit to her." 10 The angel added, "I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count."

11 The angel of the LORD also said to her:
"You are now with child
and you will have a son.
You shall name him Ishmael, [a]
for the LORD has heard of your misery.

12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone's hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward [b] all his brothers."

13 She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: "You are the God who sees me," for she said, "I have now seen [c] the One who sees me." 14 That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi [d] ; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.

How can the Angel of the LORD do this without him having the same power as G-d himself, only God can do this ?
The angel added, "I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count."

This is almost the same thing that G-d says to Abraham about his descendants Ishmael and Isaac.

Again this angel of the LORD seems to be with God and is God.

YEh

05-23-2007, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by rav

Can angels bless people ? Isn't this something only God can do ?

"Then Jacob asked him, "Please tell me your name." But he said, "Why is it that you ask my name?" And there he blessed him."

YEh

rav

05-25-2007, 02:03 PM

Shalom,

Doesn't this state that "the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush".
Then it says that "God called to him from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!" "
So it makes it clear that the angel of the LORD and God is the same person. Then to make sure you cannot mistake it "Then he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob".

So the angel in the Burning Bush and The God of Abraham is the same person ?

How do you interpret it ?

YEh

In Exodus 3 the Torah describes Moses' vision as first seeing the burning bush, then an angel and finally he realizes it is G-d Himself.

Rav Bachya puts it well in the artscroll chumash:

"Like a man in a dark room suddenly exposed to blinding sunlight, Moses had to be exposed to prophecy gradually. First, he was shown a fire that was strange because it did not consume the bush. Then it was revealed to him that an angel was in the fire, and once he had become accustomed to this new phenomenon, he was given the vision of G-d Himself (R' Bachya).

How can the Angel of the LORD do this without him having the same power as G-d himself, only God can do this ?
The angel added, "I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count."

This is almost the same thing that G-d says to Abraham about his descendants Ishmael and Isaac.

Again this angel of the LORD seems to be with God and is God.

For each statement, another angel was sent to her. Therefore, the word Maleekha, angel, is used with each statement. — [from Gen. Rabbah 45:7]

The proper translation says:

[Another] angel said in G-d's name, 'I will grant you many descendants. They will be so many that they will be uncountable.'

Since angels are messengers of G-d (the word literally means messenger and is used to speak of humans and angels) then he was given the task of "making it so." Remember that angels have no free will so they simply do what G-d bids them to do.

There are 3 angels in this text and the term for angel is clearly used (îìàê) -- so does you think that G-d became an angel? So what, now instead of a trinity we have a quartet or sextet?

The angel here is speaking for G-d.

Can angels bless people ? Isn't this something only God can do ?

"Then Jacob asked him, "Please tell me your name." But he said, "Why is it that you ask my name?" And there he blessed him."

YEh

Excuse me? I bless my son every Friday night. A special blessing a father gives to his son on Shabbat. Anyone can bless anyone… I’ll bless you right now. “May you have a proper understanding of the Torah from this moment, on!”… now you can say “Amen”. :-)

The Torah says:

I will bless those who bless you, and he who curses you, I will curse. All the families of the earth will be blessed through you.'

Therefore, people beside G-d can certainly bless others. This does not mean the angel was not speaking as a messanger on G-d's behalf as I explained a few answers above.

Grace Seeker

05-25-2007, 02:37 PM

Rav, in the Christian understanding of blessing, even a human can bless God. Is this also true within the Jewish understanding?

Abu Zakariya

05-25-2007, 07:22 PM

It seems that my question got missed, so I'll just quote myself:

Originally Posted by Abu Zakariya

thirdwatch512

05-26-2007, 04:58 AM

Shalom rav,

it must be extremely hard answering all of these questions by urself!!

anyways, but i do have one question.. sorry! lol

- Do prophets HAVE to be descendents of Isaac? like could a let's say chinese person be a prophet, or?

rav

05-28-2007, 12:11 AM

Rav, in the Christian understanding of blessing, even a human can bless God. Is this also true within the Jewish understanding?

Shalom Grace Seeker,

A man could bless G-d, I assume. Do you mean by reciting a prayer "Blessed are you L-rd our G-d who has not made me a slave" baruch attah Hashem, alekoenu melech haolam, shelo asani aved". Which is a blessing said in the morning part of morning prayer service shachrite.

It seems that my question got missed

Shalom Abu Zakariya,

I'm sorry.

A. The Jewish holidays number a total of eight. They divide into two categories: the Torah-mandated, and the ones mandated by The Rabbis. The Torah-mandated holidays are Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Sukkot, Shmini Atzeret/Simchat Torah, Pesach, and Shavuot. The ones mandated by The Rabbis are Chanukah and Purim.

B. The purpose of the holidays is to commemorate particular events in Jewish history, to clear some time in your life to work on various aspects of your life, or both. C. Each holiday is briefly but fully described throughout AskMoses. Click around to learn more about each.When are the holidays celebrated?

1. Tishrei, the Month of Holidays -- No month in the Jewish calendar has more holidays than Tishrei (pronounced TISH-ray), the first month of the Jewish year—it contains five: Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Sukkot, Hoshanah Rabbah and Shmini Atzeret/Simchat Torah.

2. Light up Winter with Joy -- Chanukah is the first of the two non-Torah-mentioned holidays, beginning on the 25th of the Hebrew month of Kislev (pronounced KISS-lehv) and extending for eight days until the third of Teves (pronounced TAY-vess). The other is Purim. Kislev, and hence, Chanukah, usually corresponds to December, while Purim falls on the fourteenth of Adar, which usually corresponds to February.

3. Celebrate Springtime’s Bounty -- Both Pesach and Shavuot double as celebrations of the good earth and its bountiful harvest. Pesach, which usually falls in March or April, is also known as Chag Ha’asif (pronounced Khahg Ha-AH-seef), or Holiday of Gathering, marking the beginning of the harvest season. Likewise, Shavuot, which falls seven weeks after Pesach, usually late May or early June, celebrates the harvest of the first fruits of the orchard in addition to the giving of the Torah.

I hope this helps. :-)

Do prophets HAVE to be descendents of Isaac? like could a let's say chinese person be a prophet, or?

Shalom thirdwatch512,

A prophet must be a Jew. To be a prophet for our people.

YEh

06-01-2007, 01:07 AM

Micah 5 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

Micah 5

1Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.

2But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

3Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

4And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.

What is Jewish understanding of this passage mean ?

From a Christian perspective it is talking about the Messiah who will come from Bethlehem, and he will be the king of israel. He has existed though for a long time before his coming, even for eternity he has existed.

Then he says he will give up his people (because the Jews rejected the Messiah, as prophecised), and they will travail the earth, then they will return to Israel. And his message shall be known to the entire earth.

Who could be the Messiah (a Jew) who was born in Bethlehem, will become a king of Israel and has existed before his arrival, whose message will reach the entire earth ??

Which person in history has acheived all this besides Jesus ??

YEh

06-01-2007, 01:47 AM

Isaiah 9

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, [b] Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.

And this quote too, I would like your opinion on.

From the Christian perspective it talks of the Messiah who will be born and given to the Jewish people who is refered to as a son. He will rule Israel with a government.
And his name will be called, Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Which person could he be referring to but God himself because he is the eternal Mighty God.
He will rule forever on the throne of King David.

Who could this be referring to ? Who was born unto Israel (from Bethlehem) who is called a Son, who is going to rule the world by his just and peaceful governement forever, who was both son and mighty God who claimed to be eternal with the father, from the family of King David, (Jesus was born into the family of Joseph, who is related to King David) ??

Only Jesus fulfills the prophecies according to the Jewish Bible.

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