what is original sin? some questions to the chrisitians and all are welcome to answer

[Helena]

Peace be upon u all....

Well i have couple of questions to ask to my fellow brothers/sisters in christianity or even judaism...and muslims are also welcome...

Can someone explain wot is meant by original sin? as i've studied in childhood that some believers believe that children are born with sins and when they enter this world they eventually become pure,as examples were given such as james bulger case...as some think does original sin exist?
but others believe including myself, we are born with pureness when we enter this world people start commiting sins.

Also my second question is about Adam and Eve as i've studied in religious studies, did original sin start from there? because the fall of the eden...
therefore was eve blamed to tempted adam to have the apple? as i have studied in RE that because of eve tempted to have an apple, women are cursed by God thru child bearing, menstrul cycle, women are seen as a object in the society then equal amongst men....

and how are men and women are seen in christianity, equally? or are women subordiante to men?

found an article from wikipedia...

Some branches of Christianity fully accept the tradition of Adam and Eve as portrayed in the Bible, and although some hold various views expressed in the Pseudepigrapha, they do not accept the later Jewish Midrash.

The story of Adam and Eve forms the basis for the doctrine of original sin, a doctrine that is held as true by many branches of Christianity, but is not shared by the Orthodox [9] or Congregationalist churches, nor by Judaism[citation needed] nor The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. "Sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned," said St Paul in his Epistle to the Romans, writing in Greek about 58 AD.[10] St Paul was not being true to the Hebrew of Genesis, which nowhere mentions the words "sin" and which does not say that Adam was punished with death. (Adam's transgression in Genesis 3 is disobedience, not sin, and he is expelled from Eden not in order to die, but so that he may not eat of the Tree of Life and become immortal).[11] St Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD), working with a Latin mistranslation of the epistle, understood Paul to have said that Adam's sin was hereditary: "Death passed upon (i.e. spread to) all men because of Adam, [in whom] all sinned".[12] Original sin, the concept that man is born in a condition of sinfulness and must await redemption, while founded on a forced reading of Genesis followed by an exegesis based on a mistranslation, nevertheless became a cornerstone of Christian theological tradition, primarily in Western-rite churches.

Over the centuries, a system of uniquely Christian beliefs has developed from the Adam and Eve story. Baptism, which predates Christianity has become understood as a means of washing away the stain of hereditary sin.[13] Additionally, the serpent that tempted Eve was interpreted by some to have been Satan, although there is no mention of this identification in the Torah. In fact, Genesis does not even hint at any of these readings, and their observance by many Christians has marked the religion's radical break from its parent.

Because Eve had tempted Adam to eat of the fatal fruit, some early Fathers of the Church held her and all subsequent women to be the first sinners, and especially responsible for the Fall. "You are the devil's gateway," Tertullian told his female listeners in the early 2nd century, and went on the explain that they were responsible for the death of Christ: "On account of your desert _ that is, death - even the Son of God had to die."[14] In 1486 the Dominicans Kramer and Sprengler used similar tracts to justify the Malleus Maleficarum ("Hammer of the Witches") that led to three centuries of persecution of "witches".

Eastern Orthodox tradition holds that the sword placed at the entrance to Paradise to prevent humankind from returning to the Garden was removed once Jesus was born.

hopefully u can all answer my questions...wid evidence from the bible...

Thanks alot...

[Pk_#2]

Dun have the bible infront of me...so i aint going to attempt to write verses from memory ...

but original sin is the sin that Adam (pbuh) committed....right?

And basically some people say that, this is why we have evil and suffering and that...ya know...


And yeah don't listen to me...I wouldn't know. :(

[AvarAllahNoor]

Original Sin

This is a term used to describe the effect of Adam's sin on his descendants (Rom. 5:12-23). Specifically, it is our inheritance of a sinful nature from Adam. The sinful nature originated with Adam and is passed down from parent to child. We are by nature children of wrath

[IceQueen~]

original sin is the sin committed by adam and eve-when they ate from the forbidden tree. xians believe that every human (descendent of adam) also carries the burden of this sin (even though they didn't do it themselves-original sin).
that's why (xians beleieve)-since according to themit was eve's fault-all women suffer pains of childbirth.

in islam we believe that no one shall bear the sin of another and all children are born sinless and innocent.

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[manaal]

I thought that Original Sin is the disobedinece of Eve at the Graden of Eden, when she ate the fruit from the forbidden tree.

Some branches of Chrostianity say that the Original Sin is transferred to every woman and they have to repent and suffer for it.

I don't theink there is such a concept in Islam. I've heard that it is a man-made concept.

[IceQueen~]

I thought that Original Sin is the disobedinece of Eve at the Graden of Eden, when she ate the fruit from the forbidden tree.

Some branches of Chrostianity say that the Original Sin is transferred to every woman and they have to repent and suffer for it.

I don't theink there is such a concept in Islam. I've heard that it is a man-made concept.

no such conept in islam-in islam no one bears the burdens of another.
subhanallah Allah is most Just

[Ayesha Rana]

Original Sin

This is a term used to describe the effect of Adam's sin on his descendants (Rom. 5:12-23). Specifically, it is our inheritance of a sinful nature from Adam. The sinful nature originated with Adam and is passed down from parent to child. We are by nature children of wrath

Not so harsh bro. I'm not a child of wrath.:offended:

[AvarAllahNoor]

Not so harsh bro. I'm not a child of wrath.:offended:

This is what original sin is, it's not me saying it i was just providing the information!

We are all in charge of our own sins, nobody will answer for anybody elses! And God would not have said this either!

[Ayesha Rana]

;D Okay then. I feel sorry for christian women but if they don't mind then who am i to blab?:X

[IceQueen~]

;D Okay then. I feel sorry for christian women but if they don't mind then who am i to blab?:X

not only women but men too-according to xianity all humans have original sin-i think that's part of their belief in jesus dying for their sins..

[glo]

Let me try and explain - as best I can - how I understand original sin.

When God created Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, they were perfect in a perfect world. They were free from sin. Also there was no pain, illness, disasters, fights ... a perfect world ... you get the picture.
There was only one law: Not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

When Adam and Eve chose to go gainst God and eat the forbidden fruit, what they were actually doing was wanting to be like God: able to know good from evil. Rather than accepting God's authority and greatness, they challenged it.

As a consequence, they had to leave the garden of Eden, and live in the world as we know it: where life is not perfect, where there is struggle and toil, pain and hurt, wars and famine ...
In my mind it was like God was saying 'If you think you can do this without me, here's your chance!'

Adam's and Eve's original sin means that all of us have inherited a certain 'sin nature'. By that I mean the inability to fully obey God's laws. Try as we might, we cannot help breaking his laws.
Do you know anybody who is without sin/fault/failings? No matter how virtuous/religious/saintly anybody is - nobody can ever claim to be perfect in God's eyes.

The only person (Christians believe) to ever have lived without sinning, is Jesus.

Hope this makes some sense.

Peace.

[Ayesha Rana]

Thabk you sister that helps alot Alhamdu'lillah

[Helena]

thanks sis glo...makes it much easier to understand!

can u explain the second question plz? the diff between men and women in christianity? seen equally?

[glo]

thanks sis glo...makes it much easier to understand!

can u explain the second question plz? the diff between men and women in christianity? seen equally?

Do you mean specifically in relation to Adam and Eve - i.e. Eve being blamed for leading Adam astray?

I will see what I can find, Helena. It may take a while though ... :rollseyes :giggling:

Peace.

[Umar001]

Sorry if I have kinda replied late, beter late than never. I guess.

Peace be upon u all....

peace be upon ya.

Can someone explain wot is meant by original sin? as i've studied in childhood that some believers believe that children are born with sins and when they enter this world they eventually become pure,as examples were given such as james bulger case...as some think does original sin exist?
but others believe including myself, we are born with pureness when we enter this world people start commiting sins.

This concept of 'original sin' can vary depending on the person you speak to, some hold it to be that all are born in a state of sin whilst others just say that we are more inclined to sin because of it.

I don't get what James Bulger, may Allah grant him paradise, as to do with it.

But the two kinda views that I see alot is either:

1. We are born sinners.
2. We are not born sinners but because of Adam and Eve's, may peace be upon them both and may they be immune from any lies attributed to them, sin we have 'inherited' this sinful nature, which means we are likely to all sin, except Jesus peace be upon him.

I like to agree with the second view, I mean from a Christian point, the Bible in some ways seems to state that, we are not straight up sinners but we suffer the consequences of Adam and Eve's sin, peace be upon them both.

Although I prefer it, this view seems to contradict some passages, from my understanding.

Anyhow I hope this might help:

Romans 5:

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned

Then

15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

Also my second question is about Adam and Eve as i've studied in religious studies, did original sin start from there? because the fall of the eden...
therefore was eve blamed to tempted adam to have the apple? as i have studied in RE that because of eve tempted to have an apple, women are cursed by God thru child bearing, menstrul cycle, women are seen as a object in the society then equal amongst men....

and how are men and women are seen in christianity, equally? or are women subordiante to men?

Lol there are like 5 questions in one, aite, 'The Fall' as it is known did start there yes, that is where Adam and Eve, according to the Bible, were then Cursed and cast out of paradise.

Read this, it is what the Bible says G-d said to them individually:

To the snake:

14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [a] and hers;
he will crush [b] your head,
and you will strike his heel."

This is also used as a 'prophecy' by some Christian with regards to Jesus coming to kill the devil or something.

To the Mother of Mankind peace be upon her, He said:

16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

And to the Father of Mankind, peace be upon him, He said:

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.

18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

'This account of 'The Fall' can be found in Genesis 3'

So we see that Biblically, alot of changes happened, from the easy life of paradise, Man and Woman were brought to another place of hardship and sorrow.

Also, just to be fair, yes Woman was cursed by G-d but so was Man and the Snake.

As for if women are seen equally?

As we have seen it was said to the Woman

Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."'

Also, in later parts of the Bible we see certain differences:

1 Corinthians 14:33

33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

This is a personal type of thing I have I told my church bout this yet they just their view from it, (wish they would turn the other cheek like that).

1 Timothy 2:

11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

I think maybe this is where some people went so crazy about blaming Women about 'The Fall' this kinda sounds harsh on the Woman.

1 Corinthians 11:

7A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

Ephesians 5:

22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

1 Peter 3:

5For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.

7Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers

I think it is kinda clear what the view point is:

Men are the 'head' of the family, and that the Women should be in submission to them. But at the same time, although some may claim that this means the man can do what he wants, the Bible also gives advice to the Men, to treat their wives with respect as the weaker partner and that they should be considerate towards them.

May The G-d of Adam and Abraham, keep His righteous servants immune from lies spread about them and bless them, their families and their followers.

Any mistakes are mine, and any good then Alhamdulilah.

Bible quotes taken from either NIV or KJV.

And this is my personal view, not that of any organisation or church, I would encourage you to look at other views aswell, provided that they are documented with evidences.

Salam Aleykum

[Abdul Fattah]

What I never understood was about origenal sin:

Isn't it contradicting with free will? And isn't the absence of free will in it's turn contradicting with punishment and reward?
If God created man sinful, then how can he hold man responsible for his sins?

[snakelegs]

judaism does not have this belief. how could a baby be a sinner?
in judaism, at birth a person is all good (called "the good impulse". at the age of 13 of course he still has the good impulse but now he also gets a "bad impulse".
another thing i think is interesting is that jews don't regard "the bad impulse" as 100% bad. it is said that if not for the evil impulse no one would get married or build a house, etc.
lavikor, if i've made a mistake, please set me straight.
by the way, i like the fact that eve is not to blame in the qur'an. that's pretty cool.

[Pk_#2]

very cool indeed Snakelegs :)

[IbnAbdulHakim]

:salamext:

i thought christians believed that the original sin means that we all hav to pay 4 our predecossors sin IE Adam AS.... ???

:wasalamex:

[akr4m]

:sl:

That is a very interesting point steve, never thought of that.

In addition to that I dont believe it is justice to blame the children for the iniquity of the fathers.

In islam it is not the case - each soul is responsilbe for their own actions, and all babies are born pure.

The conviction that a child cannot be accountable for his actions until he knows the difference between right and wrong is the universal judgment of all men,

But this judgment repudiates the doctrine of original sin, which teaches that babies are accountable, guilty, and under the wrath of God from birth.

A monstrous and cruel injustice to send innocent little babies to hell (if it was to die), dont you think?

However the original sin is inconsistent with some of the bible passages:

"The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him." (Ezekiel 18:19-21)

"Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin." (Deuteronomy 24:16)

:w:

[manaal]

In Islam a new born baby is free from sin. It is pure and a mumeen.

Have you not heard:
"A baby dies soon after birth goes straight to heaven"
"A Muslim who performs Hajj perfectly is like a new-born baby"
"A person who reverts to Islam starts over witha clean-slate"
i.e. they are free from all sin.

Therefore Original Sin is not a concept believed in Islam.

Glo and IsaAbdullah:
Am I correct in saying that Christianity is also now dispelling this belief?

[glo]

Manaal

I invite other Christians to correct me, but my understanding of original sin, is as I tried to explain in my earlier post:

Original sin means that we are born incapable of obeying God's laws. We have inherited weaknesses, which lead to sin sooner or later in life.
It does not mean that babies are born as sinners in the sense of babies are 'bad', and if small child pulls the cat's tail it is 'sinful' (how can a person sin unless they have the cognitive ability to know right from wrong?), or that we have to pay for Adam and Eve's original sin, in the sense that 'we committed it'

As akr4am quoted:

"The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him." (Ezekiel 18:19-21)

"Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin." (Deuteronomy 24:16)

These quotes relate to practices of vengeance, and state that no person should be punished for the crime of another.

There is a view, however, that when we realise the nature of sin, and don't turn away from it, then by condoning it in our hearts we make it our own.(Those are my own words. Here is a better, or perhaps more complicated :? explanation)

We become responsible and guilty when we accept or approve of our corrupt nature. There is a time in the life of each one of us when we become aware of our own tendency toward sin. At that point we may abhor the sinful nature that has been there all the time...and repent of it. At the very least there would be a rejection of our sinful makeup. [I]But if we acquiesce in that sinful nature, we are in effect saying that it is good.[/I] In placing our tacit approval upon the corruption, we are also approving or concurring in the action in the Garden of Eden so long ago. We become guilty of that sin without having to commit a sin of our own. ( Millard Erickson, author of Christian Theology)

I am trying to think this through ...
1. Imagine your friend has committed a crime. Until you learn about his crime, you are free from any wrong-doing. But if you find out about it and don't take the right action (i.e. get him to confess or report him to the police), do you become partly responsible?

2. Another one.
I am German. My nation has committed horrendous atrocities in the fairly recent past. I was born some 20 years after the war had ended - so I was not directly involved in any of those atrocities!
It could end there ... but it is not as simple as that.
Firstly, the fact that I am German, my very accent when I open my mouth to speak, makes people remember those atrocities. In generations to come this will lessen, but with the memories still being fresh it is a fact. Whether I like it or not, whether it is right or not, I carry a certain amount of 'generational responsibility' ...

Secondly, if I didn't condemn the atrocities of WWII, if I publicly declared that Hitler was right (which, of course, I don't!!), would I not share in the wrong-doing?

These two last points are dscussion points rather than statements. I can understand people disagreeing with the concept of inherited sin.

I'm rambling ... :rollseyes

Peace

[Abdul Fattah]

I'm not so familiar with christianity as I am with the catholic church since I was raised in Belgium which is mostly catholic. So I don't know about the interpretation you proposed Glo, but around here I was always thought in school that people are born with guilt. That we inherited the sin of Adam and Eve. It is said that Adam and eve were first immortal. But because they sinned they become mortal as did all the generations following them. So our mortality -according to the catholic teachings I recieved- is the punishment for Adam and eve's sins. Indirectly, our mortality also created woman's ability to bear children. It was seen as a modofication to cope with mortality so that people wouldn't get extinct. In Islam an equally weiging guilt is placed on both Adam and Eve for the sin, but in Catholic church they say that Eve -being tempted by the snake- in her turn tempted Adam. So therefor Eve, and all woman to come are punished more severly by the responsability and pain of childbearing and the monthly period they expieriance as a result of that ability. Christianity apearently re-interpretated those terms afterwards. But if I'm not mistaken, even in christianity a deceased baby that isn't baptised goes to purgatory. So there's "inherited sin" even there.

[glo]

Hi Steve

I'm not so familiar with christianity as I am with the catholic church since I was raised in Belgium which is mostly catholic. So I don't know about the interpretation you proposed Glo, but around here I was always thought in school that people are born with guilt.

I am not too familiar with the Catholic view on this, so I can't really help you there.

That we inherited the sin of Adam and Eve. It is said that Adam and eve were first immortal. But because they sinned they become mortal as did all the generations following them. So our mortality -according to the catholic teachings I recieved- is the punishment for Adam and eve's sins.

I am not sure that I agree with the statement that 'our mortality is the [do you mean our?] punishment for Adam's and Eve's sin'. I would say that 'our mortality is the consequence of Adam's and Eve's punishment for their sin' ... if you see the difference.
(I hope that's not me nitpicking here :rollseyes )

In Islam an equally weighing guilt is placed on both Adam and Eve for the sin, but in Catholic church they say that Eve -being tempted by the snake- in her turn tempted Adam. So therefor Eve, and all woman to come are punished more severly by the responsability and pain of childbearing and the monthly period they expieriance as a result of that ability.

Yes, I believe that Eve's involvement in the original sin have been used by church teaching in the past to discriminate against women. :uhwhat
But other Bible passages do not support such a view:

If you read Genesis 3:16-19, you will see that God punishes Eve and Adam equally, and there is no emphasis on Eve having the greater share of guilt.
(To save space, I won't paste it here, but see Isa's previous post. He has quoted the passage there)

The New Testament makes it very clear that men and women are equal in God's eyes:
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)

Christianity apparently re-interpretated those terms afterwards.

If you study the history of Islam carefully, you may find that Islamic teaching has also undergone changes and re-interpretations over time. (Some may disagree with me here)

But if I'm not mistaken, even in christianity a deceased baby that isn't baptised goes to purgatory. So there's "inherited sin" even there.

Again, purgatory is part of the Catholic faith, and I don't know much about it.
Infant baptism is not a biblical practice. An infant cannot place his or her faith in Christ. An infant cannot make a conscious decision to obey Christ. An infant cannot understand what water baptism symbolizes. The Bible does not record any infants being baptized.
A child is not accountable until it is old anough to make a personal and informed decision to follow Christ.

[Abdul Fattah]

Well I like your interpretation, But I'm wondering to what extend that really is the classical christian teaching, or an attempt to cope with dificult questions. No offence.

So would it be safe to conlude that christianity does not have the concept of origenal sin, but that rather Christianity only acknowledges a sort of weakness in mankind? And if this weakness is by no fault of his own can it be considered as his "sin"?

B.t.w. I think you're closer to Islam then you realise yourself sister ;)

[glo]

Well I like your interpretation, But I'm wondering to what extend that really is the classical christian teaching, or an attempt to cope with dificult questions. No offence.

Well, I can only tell you what I know. To answer your question, we would have to do some more serious study into Christian doctrine and different denominations.
But I can assure you that my knowledge is from sound Christian doctrine and not just made up by myself. ;D

So would it be safe to conlude that christianity does not have the concept of origenal sin, but that rather Christianity only acknowledges a sort of weakness in mankind? And if this weakness is by no fault of his own can it be considered as his "sin"?

I don't think that would be safe to conclude at all ... but I won't repeat all I have said already. :rollseyes

B.t.w. I think you're closer to Islam then you realise yourself sister ;)

LOL
I'll take that as a compliment ... shall I?
I may be closer to Islam in the sense that I have a clearer picture of it's teachings - regardless of whether I agree with it or not.
I may even be closer in the sense that I can see real value in some aspects of Islam.
But I will never abandon Jesus Christ as my personal Saviour and the truth of his teachings, ... so really I am as far from Islam as I have ever been!

I wish you peace, Steve. Thanks for this friendly exchange of views. :thankyou:

[AvarAllahNoor]

But I will never abandon Jesus Christ as my personal Saviour and the truth of his teachings.:

Neither should you Glo :)

Most of us have a religion we follow, be it Islam/Sikh/Christain/Buddhism it matters not, as all these different paths lead to the one true door!

[Abdul Fattah]

Well, I can only tell you what I know. To answer your question, we would have to do some more serious study into Christian doctrine and different denominations.
But I can assure you that my knowledge is from sound Christian doctrine and not just made up by myself. ;D

Yes of course I didn't mean to imply you were making this up as you went along, but rather that autorithys in christianity have made it up as they went along.

I don't think that would be safe to conclude at all ... but I won't repeat all I have said already. :rollseyes

So in christianity there's also an inherited aspect of human charesteristics that is sinfull. A charesteristic beyond our will/control, yet where we can/should/might be held responsible for?

[Quote[I'll take that as a compliment ... shall I? [/quote]
Yes from my point of view that's defenitly meant as compliment.

I may be closer to Islam in the sense that I have a clearer picture of it's teachings - regardless of whether I agree with it or not.
I may even be closer in the sense that I can see real value in some aspects of Islam.
But I will never abandon Jesus Christ as my personal Saviour and the truth of his teachings, ... so really I am as far from Islam as I have ever been!

What I meant is that I believe your viewpoint lies closer to Islam than you'd think. Every pious person is victem of the clash of religions. In the end I hold more value over your personal idea then over the one spoon-fed on you by authority. That's why I said I thought you might eb closer to Islam then you yourself realise.

I wish you peace, Steve. Thanks for this friendly exchange of views. :thankyou:

Wa aleykum selam

[duskiness]

Well I like your interpretation, But I'm wondering to what extend that really is the classical christian teaching, or an attempt to cope with dificult questions. No offence.

I thought this might be helpfull:

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man". By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence"."

Catechism of Catholic Church.

Steve - You must have had a really dreadful experience on religion lessons :giggling:
n.

[Abdul Fattah]

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man". By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

So we are not considered guilty for the act, but we do suffer the consequences. We are not punished, yet the punisment affects us.
(by the way, I'm not implying mortality or the abilty to bear children is actually a punishment. Personally I don't see it as such. I'm just building an argument based on the claim the Catholic teachings make.)

405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence"."

Well this begs the question: Do all human sin fall under this? Or is just some of the sin considered inherited? And in the first case, how can we be held responsible for it? How can a deity punish in a justified way based on sins out of the control of the people?

Steve - You must have had a really dreadful experience on religion lessons

Actually back then -being an atheist- I had a lot of vain fun in those lessons mocking my teachers and raising questions they could not answer for my entertainment.
:embarrass
The dreadfullness was on my teachers I suppose

[snakelegs]

I'm not so familiar with christianity as I am with the catholic church

i'm curious - i keep seeing this type of thing. catholics are christians - why are they often spoken of as something different?

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,


Well since we are talking about original sin..

Sin ce we know that supposedly Jesus died to to reddem man of their sin...does that also include the original sin?

Casue when i am in chat i keep asking and they say yes but when i ask why then do chrisitan women still get child birth pain,does that mena they are not true christians?

Unless ofcourse jesus did not die to forgive sin or he did not die or he is not god..?

Unless of course youa re saying that jesus died and forgives sin but leaves the punishment around...

[manaal]

i'm curious - i keep seeing this type of thing. catholics are christians - why are they often spoken of as something different?

There are many branches of Christians: Methodists, Anglicans, Roman Catholics, AOGs, Protestants, Presbytarians etc.

Each sect has a different concept as to how Christianty is to be followed. They differ on certain matters such as invoking blessings from saints, keeping statues in churches and whether or not their priests can marry.

[Joe98]

Salaam,
...when i ask why then do chrisitan women still get child birth pain...

What is this supposed to mean????

[Zulkiflim]

What is this supposed to mean????

Salaam
Read genesis,it is one of god curse on mankind or rather woman kind for the fall...

So did Jesus die for sin,,,all sin except original sin...?

If Jesus is god and forgives all sin then surely that curse should be lifted?

unless of course you are saying Jesus being god does not have the power to lift the curse by the father


so would be interested to hear your answer.

[Joe98]

You said "christian" women.

Why did you say that?

[glo]

i'm curious - i keep seeing this type of thing. catholics are christians - why are they often spoken of as something different?

Hi snakelegs

I'm sure you've asked this question before.
I tried to reply yesterday, but didn't get the chance.

Yes, Catholics are Christians.
They believe in the trinity and in Jesus Christ as the son of God who died for mankind.
The Roman Catholic church has developed from he first church which Paul started in Rome, and the Pope continues to be viewd by Catholics as God's representative on earth.

In the 16th century AD Martin Luther, a German monk and theologian, criticised the Catholic church for having developed traditions which were not founded on biblical scripture. This created a split in the church - Protestants and Catholics.

Some Protestants may have the view that Catholics are not Christians. Personally, I find that unfounded, because of the reasons I gave above. Yes, there are some marked differences between the two main groups, but the basic belief is the same.

I suppose it depends on your definition of 'Christian' ... perhaps I will have to do some more reading ... :thankyou:

Does this help?

Peace.

[glo]

You said "christian" women.

Why did you say that?

Well, I'm a Christian, and a woman, and I experienced pain in childbirth ... so it must be true! :giggling:

Peace.

[snakelegs]

Hi snakelegs

I'm sure you've asked this question before.

if so, it went down the memory hole.

I tried to reply yesterday, but didn't get the chance.

Yes, Catholics are Christians.
They believe in the trinity and in Jesus Christ as the son of God who died for mankind.
The Roman Catholic church has developed from he first church which Paul started in Rome, and the Pope continues to be viewd by Catholics as God's representative on earth.

In the 16th century AD Martin Luther, a German monk and theologian, criticised the Catholic church for having developed traditions which were not founded on biblical scripture. This created a split in the church - Protestants and Catholics.

Some Protestants may have the view that Catholics are not Christians. Personally, I find that unfounded, because of the reasons I gave above. Yes, there are some marked differences between the two main groups, but the basic belief is the same.

I suppose it depends on your definition of 'Christian' ... perhaps I will have to do some more reading ... :thankyou:

Does this help?

Peace.

yes, thanks for your reply.

[Umar001]

Am I correct in saying that Christianity is also now dispelling this belief?

Peace be upon you,

If by dispelling you mean trying to 'change' it or sweep it under the rag,

A while bck I heard of something like this among some catholic, of a meeting to discuss such things, but I have no proof, I had some but it was a while back and it wasnt something of much interest.

I see that denominational talk is happening in here.

I dont know, cant remember if it was you Manaal that was the original poster.

Are you asking 'what is original sin' in a certain denomination or are ya asking Biblically?

To me from my viewpoint Original sin is almost as obscure as the Trinity, you ask people and seem to get totally different answers.

As I have stated before, some merely think it is a disposition of man making him inclined towards sin, some think that we are all born in sin and need Jesus to save us, and so on.

all seem to be correct when you look at the bible, but all are illogical to think a Just G-d would do such a thing and some may just contradict each other.

I hope I have helped.

[duskiness]

So we are not considered guilty for the act, but we do suffer the consequences. We are not punished, yet the punisment affects us.
(by the way, I'm not implying mortality or the abilty to bear children is actually a punishment. Personally I don't see it as such. I'm just building an argument based on the claim the Catholic teachings make.)

- something like that ;). But catechism is not using word "punishement" .We belive that Adam&Eve comitted their sin, but at the same time they have "spoiled" our human nature (and this nature is common for every human). And thanks to them introducing sin to the word, we today can sin. Additionaly we belive that what happend in Garden of Eden didn't only destroy our relationship with God, but aslo with each other and with the word around. Adam&Eve opened Pandora box and set sin free into this word. And now whole word is afflicted by it. But we believe that in the end God will cure this disease

Well this begs the question: Do all human sin fall under this?

No. Only this onn. And it's "sin" only in analogical sens

Or is just some of the sin considered inherited?

Inherited is fallen nature

Actually back then -being an atheist- I had a lot of vain fun in those lessons mocking my teachers and raising questions they could not answer for my entertainment.
:embarrass
The dreadfullness was on my teachers I suppose

-hehe i usually played truant. But there were times when I was on lessons and my theacher was losing temper and she was throwing books and hitting us with keys :giggling: so if i can't answer your questions blame her! ;)
n.

[duskiness]

If by dispelling you mean trying to 'change' it or sweep it under the rag,

- I doubt we are "sweeping sth under the rag". If teological understanding of some dogmas change trhat's rather normal. It developing for 2000 years it can't be still! and in th end "For we know in part and we prophesy in part"

A while bck I heard of something like this among some catholic, of a meeting to discuss such things, but I have no proof, I had some but it was a while back and it wasnt something of much interest.

Maybe 2 Councile of Vatican?

I see that denominational talk is happening in here.

And i see that all denominations represented here are in agreement much often than in disagreement...

Are you asking 'what is original sin' in a certain denomination or are ya asking Biblically?

- all denomination support their view with Bible. So thier understanding is "biblical".

To me from my viewpoint Original sin is almost as obscure as the Trinity, you ask people and seem to get totally different answers.

- I would agree with answer given by Glo, so we are not giving "totally different answers"

all seem to be correct when you look at the bible, but all are illogical to think a Just G-d would do such a thing

- IsaAbdullah are a judging God?
n.

[Umar001]

- I doubt we are "sweeping sth under the rag". If teological understanding of some dogmas change trhat's rather normal. It developing for 2000 years it can't be still! and in th end "For we know in part and we prophesy in part"

If you read the little article then you might have seen my view point. But as I have said it was a long time ago and I don't know where it is.

Maybe 2 Councile of Vatican?

I don't have a clue, the reason I think it was of some catholics was because it talked about purgutry or something. I remember thinking it was Catholosism.

And i see that all denominations represented here are in agreement much often than in disagreement...

They might be, if they are then good for them, it will make interfaith dialogue easier. I just dont like talking about denominations because I don't study their view points individual so I would not want to say something wrong about one of them.

It would be like a Christian who has not studied the Aqeeda of Shi'a getting involved in a discussion about Shi'a, Sunni points of view on Abu Bakr, May Allah be pleased with him.

all denomination support their view with Bible. So thier understanding is "biblical".

If that were the case then wouldnt they all just be one denomination and not many??

Do you believe that a Biblical view can be one that takes a some of passages and neglects others? Althought they might support their view with some passages they neglect others which would not make it a whole Biblical view.

I would agree with answer given by Glo, so we are not giving "totally different answers"

To me from my viewpoint Original sin is almost as obscure as the Trinity, you ask people and seem to get totally different answers.

Right here I was talking with regards to what I have come across, that is why I stated from my viewpoint.

And I go on to speak about what I have seen from my viewpoint,

As I have stated before, some merely think it is a disposition of man making him inclined towards sin, some think that we are all born in sin and need Jesus to save us, and so on.

Now to be honest, I am no expert but my experience has mainly come from outside this Forum, so my viewpoint is not just formed from what happens in here, and whether Christians agree on this forum or not.

IsaAbdullah are a judging God?

In Islam we don't believe G-d has any equals or co-equals nor shares his dominion, thus it would be very illogical for me to 'judge' G-d.

Rather as the Bible says:

1 Thessalonians 5

19 Quench not the Spirit. 20 Despise not prophesyings. 21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

And in the advise of the author of Mark who claims Jesus said:

Mark 12

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

I am only to question the Spirit who has brought forth the revelation and in loving G-d with all my mind, I should abstain from all appearances of evil.

So when I believe G-d is Just, then someone tells me that G-d punishes the children for the sins of the parents. Then I as the scripture says should abstain from evil.

Hope thats cleared my position up a little bit.

Peace

[glo]

I'm sure you've asked this question before.

if so, it went down the memory hole

I just meant that you have expressed an interest in this topic before ... not necessarily that you got an answer that time.
I'm sure your memory is fine! ;D

[Joe98]

My understanding:

The belief is that Adam and Eve committed the first sin. This first sin is a stain on everybody's soul.

To get rid of the stain you need to be baptised.

As non Christians are never baptised you cannot get rid of the stain.

John the Baptist baptised people even before Christ died on the cross so it dates back to that time.

[Zulkiflim]

You said "christian" women.

Why did you say that?

HEya

Why did i say Christian women..

Well lets see,,,Bible is read by christians...

The bible in genesis cursed women with child birth pain...

So is it not plain why i say christian women?

So pls answer,if you are a chrisitan.
Did Jesus die to forgive all sin ?
If he did then why is the curse still aroung?

Unless he did not die to forgive original sin,and thus all women are still cursed..right..

Unless Jesus has no power to undo what the fahter did
Which mena they are not equal nor are they one..

So which would be more appealing to you,a god that forgives but still punishes..
Or a god that cannot undo what a greater god do
Or Jesus is but a man..

[Joe98]

You quoted from Genesis.

Who belives in Genesis? Only Christians?????

[Chief1]

Quote Zulkiflim
"So which would be more appealing to you,a god that forgives but still punishes..
Or a god that cannot undo what a greater god do"

It's not that God can't undo what's been done. In principal He wont but has rather provided a way to escape the curse (Jesus)

I'll try and illistrate the concept of original sin in the form of a simple scenereo;

An intruder breaks into your house & shoots you leaveing you seriously wounded. He's eventually caught & imprisoned (punished)
Eventually he sees the error of his ways and asks Gods forgiveness.

Now he may be forgiven but you are still affected by his sin right? Probably not just you but also your family. You see his pardon from his evil doesn't mean you will be healed will it?
It's similar with original sin. Adam & Eave were punished & forgiven, but there were still consequenses to their actions & we (part of Adams family) live with those consequenses all around, for the Bible teaches that by one man (Adam), death & sin came into the world.
Hope this helps a bit.
Peace

[Chief1]

You'll have to pardon my bad spelling.... Eave lol! should be eve :)

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

Chief thank for the answer but agian it begs the question..

Did Jesus forgive just everyday sin or all sin including original sin.

I ask you,if a man like you siad shot the houseowner and ask for forgiveness from god and god gives him but then put him in hell...

Do you think then that he is forgiven?

So in short you are sayin that jesus in your mind died for all sin but still punishes those whom have accepted him...

[Zulkiflim]

You quoted from Genesis.

Who belives in Genesis? Only Christians?????

Salaam,

Well i see you place yourslf as an atheis so why dont i ask you,do you believe that god cursed eve with childbirth pain for original sin?

Then if you do then do answer,do you forgive and leave the curse behind..

If you dont then just asnwer,do you forgive but exact retribution?

thanks...

[Chief1]

Zulkiflim
Bear with me, I find its quite hard to put my thoughts in writing.
I believe Jesus has the power & will to forgive all sin. But I think you see original sin different to the way Fundamental Christanity would view it.
Here's another analogy, rather simplistic but it's the principle that I'm trying to convey.
A man leaps off a high cliff to end his life (suicide) He realises his wrong actions (suicide is considered a sin to Fundamentalist Christians) & asks God's forgiveness. God can forgive him but that won't stop him falling & the consequences of that fall.
Original sin as I understand it came as the RESULT of Adams sin in the garden. In that day he died spiritually, his spirit was corrupted or spoiled & it's like a "spiritual defect" that runs down from him through all humanity (we are his decendants) Almost like a genetic disorder that will pass from parent to child.
We don't actually need forgiveness for original sin because we are not accountable for Adams sin & it's not our fault that we are "fallen / defective" by nature. BUT we all are affected by it & need restoration spiritually.
God has provided redemption through the sacrifice of his Son, If we reject his provision then we will be held to account for that on the Day Of Judgement &
will be cast into the lake of fire.
I hope this is a little clearer
Peace :)

[Joe98]

Well i see you place yourslf as an atheis so why dont i ask you,do you believe that god cursed eve with childbirth pain for original sin?

As there is no god the answer is "no"

[Zulkiflim]

Zulkiflim
Bear with me, I find its quite hard to put my thoughts in writing.
I believe Jesus has the power & will to forgive all sin. But I think you see original sin different to the way Fundamental Christanity would view it.
Here's another analogy, rather simplistic but it's the principle that I'm trying to convey.
A man leaps off a high cliff to end his life (suicide) He realises his wrong actions (suicide is considered a sin to Fundamentalist Christians) & asks God's forgiveness. God can forgive him but that won't stop him falling & the consequences of that fall.
Original sin as I understand it came as the RESULT of Adams sin in the garden. In that day he died spiritually, his spirit was corrupted or spoiled & it's like a "spiritual defect" that runs down from him through all humanity (we are his decendants) Almost like a genetic disorder that will pass from parent to child.
We don't actually need forgiveness for original sin because we are not accountable for Adams sin & it's not our fault that we are "fallen / defective" by nature. BUT we all are affected by it & need restoration spiritually.
God has provided redemption through the sacrifice of his Son, If we reject his provision then we will be held to account for that on the Day Of Judgement &
will be cast into the lake of fire.
I hope this is a little clearer
Peace :)

Salaam,

I dont think you are right,accordign to the church we are resposnsible and accoutnable for original sin.that is why god cursed the entirety and the offsprings of adam and eve.
If we are just cursed spiritually then surely a spirtual cleansing is enough but now we are cursed accoridng ot eh bible,both spiritually and physically so as you say,chrisitan supposedly have received the spiritual forgiveness but not the physical forgiveness.

For that scenario you have said about the man jumping down,consider the same fact,he commit suicide and before death he ask for forgivensss and receives,but still is punished into hell.....

Is then that forgiveness trully meanigful?it is the same with the curse on woman kind,would god say you re forgiven but then still leave the curse behind...

For one,there are many christian in the world whom are more then 10 generation long,but still with every female born,the curse remains....so that mean that the curse resides in every woman despite the first generation receiving forgiveness...

[Phil12123]

I believe Jesus has the power & will to forgive all sin. But I think you see original sin different to the way Fundamental Christianity would view it.
Here's another analogy, rather simplistic but it's the principle that I'm trying to convey.
A man leaps off a high cliff to end his life (suicide). He realizes his wrong actions (suicide is considered a sin to Fundamentalist Christians) & asks God's forgiveness. God can forgive him but that won't stop him falling & the consequences of that fall.
Original sin as I understand it came as the RESULT of Adam’s sin in the garden. In that day he died spiritually, his spirit was corrupted or spoiled & it's like a "spiritual defect" that runs down from him through all humanity (we are his decendants). Almost like a genetic disorder that will pass from parent to child. We don't actually need forgiveness for original sin because we are not accountable for Adam’s sin & it's not our fault that we are "fallen / defective" by nature. BUT we all are affected by it & need restoration spiritually. God has provided redemption through the sacrifice of his Son. If we reject his provision then we will be held to account for that on the Day of Judgment & will be cast into the lake of fire.

Zulkiflim’s response:

I don’t think you are right, according to the church we are responsible and accountable for original sin. That is why god cursed the entirety and the offsprings of adam and eve.
If we are just cursed spiritually then surely a spiritual cleansing is enough but now we are cursed according to the bible, both spiritually and physically so as you say, Christians supposedly have received the spiritual forgiveness but not the physical forgiveness.
For that scenario you have said about the man jumping down, consider the same fact, he commits suicide and before death he asks for forgiveness and receives, but still is punished into hell.....
Is then that forgiveness truly meaningful? It is the same with the curse on woman kind, would god say you’re forgiven but then still leave the curse behind...
For one, there are many Christians in the world whom are more then 10 generation long, but still with every female born, the curse remains....so that mean that the curse resides in every woman despite the first generation receiving forgiveness...

I think Glo and Chief1 (above) have stated the meaning and effect of “original sin” very nicely. We might look first at the commandment that Adam and Eve broke:

Gen. 2:17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.''

Immediately after eating, they died spiritually, because we see them hiding in the Garden from God (Gen. 3:8), no longer enjoying the close fellowship of one who is spiritually alive to God. And they apparently started dying physically, because we know that ultimately Adam died at age 930 (Gen. 5:5). And if with God “one day is…as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day” (2 Pet. 3:8), we might say that Adam died physically the “day” he ate the forbidden fruit.

In the New Testament, Paul explains it in Romans 5:

12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned
18. Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
19. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

Just as God is Triune (Three in One), man who was made in the image of God is triune. He has a body, soul, and spirit (1 Thess.5:23). It was his spirit that died immediately when Adam ate the forbidden fruit. So he became spiritually dead. That deadness, or sin nature, was passed on to his children and their children and all descendants on down to the present day.

When Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus in John 3, He told him that he had to be “born again,” not physically as Nicodemus was thinking, but spiritually. Nicodemus’ spirit needed a new birth or regeneration, to make him spiritually alive. Jesus said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” (John 3:6). Only the Holy Spirit can regenerate the dead human spirit to bring life to it. And when He does, that life is ETERNAL life. That occurs when a person receives Christ into his heart and life. “He that has the Son has life, and he that has not the Son of God has not life” (1 John 5:12)

Based on Jesus’ loving treatment of little children and His statement that “of such is the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 19:14), I believe babies, though born with a sin nature (a predisposition or inclination to disobey or “sin”) are not “sinners” by choice until they actually commit willful sin, knowing that it is sin. That may occur at different ages for different people. Babies are born spiritually dead and with a sin nature, and for that reason one could say they are born “sinners” but they are otherwise “innocent” and not accountable for any sin until they themselves actually sin, knowing it is sin.

I have sometimes thought that the period of our lives, from birth to the point of knowing right from wrong, is similar to the lives of Adam and Eve before they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We were innocent, running around naked, as little babies or very small children do, not knowing any different. Then, as we grow older and know good and evil, we become accountable and when we disobey and do the “evil,” we are no longer the innocent babies we once were, just as Adam and Eve were no longer the innocent creatures they once were.

Paul, in Romans 7:7-9, includes some similar thoughts. He said, “I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.” “For without the law, sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once; but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.”

The Law, the Ten Commandments, etc. gave Paul the knowledge of good and evil. But before he received the Law, before he knew what sin was, he was “alive” in some sense---but when the Law came and he then knew, he died.

So before a baby or child knows right from wrong (the knowledge of good and evil), he is “alive” in some sense. But when he knows and disobeys, he dies. After that, he has to be born of the Spirit or he “cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:3,5).

Peace

[Chief1]

Excellent post Phil12123.
I know I should include the relevant scriptures in mine but usually I'm in a hurry to get to work etc... I need the bible on my PC for quick refrence.

Zulkiflim
I've tried to explain the concept useing the man leaping off the cliff as a sort of parable. It's the concept that I'm trying to make clear. the illistration probably isn't the best.
If God forgives him, of course he will NOT go to Hell, he would be with his Father in Heaven if he dies.
He may be forgiven but that doesn't mean he will touch down with a perfect "3 point landing" at the bottom of the cliff. You see his sin has set in motion the course of his future. Think of it as cause & effect. If we look around us we see a world suffering from the result of sin & the collateral damage it leaves behind.
Peace.

[Umar001]

"Just as God is Triune (Three in One), man who was made in the image of God is triune. He has a body, soul, and spirit (1 Thess.5:23). It was his spirit that died immediately when Adam ate the forbidden fruit. So he became spiritually dead. That deadness, or sin nature, was passed on to his children and their children and all descendants on down to the present day." Phil


Is this the only part that was sent down according to you?

I mean it seems like your saying, the spirit of Adam died instantly and this, deadness, is what has been passed down.

So as you have stated we are, body soul and spirit. So we see that the death of our spirit has been given to us as a punishment from G-d through Adam's action.

What about the soul and body, what in those sections have we recieved from Adam, if anything.

Im trying to get this so bare with me please.

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,


Hmm now i am confused,you are trying to explain what si original sin right??

May i ask how do you know that after they ate the fruit they died spiritually?
And can i aslo say that by eating the fruit they became mortal,,succumbed to death,,,when before they were immortal...So eating the fruit casued them to die both physically and spiritually..like old age...

Also you say Adam died at the age of 930 year which is 1 day to god,,,but may i ask did not adam stayed in heaven for several day?
So that account that adam died at age of (in god days) 1 day then that is a mistake right..


Basically in your article you say that jesus death forgives and recreate man spirtually.....but not remove the curse for that taint..

Does that mena Jesus does not have the power to remove the taint by the father?
Or is he supplying the spirit while the body is cursed?

either way,my question remain,,,do you still punish those whom you have forgiven?

Unless youa re saying jesus forgives but the father is still angry,,thus showing they are speperate entity with differnt thought and limited power...ie jesus beign lesser than the father..

[Umar001]

Some nice question I wanted to ask but I jus went along with the spiritual thing

[Hijrah]

Is it true that if a child or baby doesn't get baptized, it's destined for hell accordig to Christians?

[glo]

Is it true that if a child or baby doesn't get baptized, it's destined for hell accordig to Christians?

Hi Hijrah

To avoid repeat discussions, try this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...dont-get.html?

Peace. :thankyou:

[Phil12123]

Hmm now i am confused,you are trying to explain what si original sin right??

May i ask how do you know that after they ate the fruit they died spiritually?
And can i aslo say that by eating the fruit they became mortal,,succumbed to death,,,when before they were immortal...So eating the fruit casued them to die both physically and spiritually..like old age...

Also you say Adam died at the age of 930 year which is 1 day to god,,,but may i ask did not adam stayed in heaven for several day?
So that account that adam died at age of (in god days) 1 day then that is a mistake right..

Basically in your article you say that jesus death forgives and recreate man spirtually.....but not remove the curse for that taint..

Does that mena Jesus does not have the power to remove the taint by the father? Or is he supplying the spirit while the body is cursed?

either way,my question remain,,,do you still punish those whom you have forgiven?

Unless youa re saying jesus forgives but the father is still angry,,thus showing they are speperate entity with differnt thought and limited power...ie jesus beign lesser than the father..

Yes, I’m trying, though perhaps not succeeding, to explain the concept of “original sin.” It’s “original” because it’s referring to the first sin that entered the world, the sin of Adam and Eve. (I don’t see any real profit in blaming one more than the other; Adam was just as guilty as Eve in disobeying God, and vice versa. But that could take up an entire separate post if you want to pursue that.) What we should know is, What is it? And what effect did it have on them and the rest of humanity born to them and after them?

I would say that we understand this subject from common sense observation of the way we (humanity) are, together with what we read in the Word of God. Beyond that it is useless speculation. I hope that what I have said is firmly based on both of those factors, though primarily on the Word of God. Whatever you read in any of my posts that isn’t, you should ignore.

I will try to answer your questions one at a time, in the order asked.

You ask, “May I ask how do you know that after they ate the fruit they died spiritually?” I may have already answered that in my post. I said:

“Immediately after eating, they died spiritually, because we see them hiding in the Garden from God (Gen. 3:8), no longer enjoying the close fellowship of one who is spiritually alive to God. And they apparently started dying physically, because we know that ultimately Adam died at age 930 (Gen. 5:5). And if with God “one day is…as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day” (2 Pet. 3:8), we might say that Adam died physically the “day” he ate the forbidden fruit.”

Adam and Eve had disobeyed God and they knew it. That’s what sin is, at the heart of it --- disobedience or, actually, rebellion against God. God says one thing, we do the opposite. I want MY way, not God’s way. And His way can be something real small or simple, a lot less than “Don’t kill anyone.” Don’t eat of that tree. A small thing to ask, right? But the point is, HE said it and WE ignore and disobey it.

A&E had sinned and for the first time they knew guilt. They knew they were guilty of disobeying God, so they hid from Him. Fat chance. Obviously they couldn’t hide from God, certainly not just “amongst the trees of the garden” (Gen. 3:8).

The next verse is interesting. Verse 9 has God calling out to Adam, “Where are you?” Someone once said, whenever you see God asking a question in His Word, it is not to obtain information. He’s all-knowing so He already knows the answer to whatever He’s asking. But here He was drawing out of Adam a confession of his guilt and his sin. “Where are you?” … Who told you that you were naked?” … etc. God already knew all that, but He wanted Adam to confess it.

Back to your question. I think they died spiritually because of all the foregoing. But also God did say “in the day that you eat thereof, you shall surely die” (Gen.2:17). Now something happened in that very day, that 24-hour day. It happened immediately. They obviously did not die physically that very day, and I believe they still had a soul. But if man is body, soul, and spirit, it had to be the spirit that “died.” And I think we can see that, or the effects of it, in their hiding from God.

Yes, they also became mortal. Their bodies were also subject to death. That is why I said, “And they apparently started dying physically…” etc.

Sorry, I don’t understand your next question… Adam staying in heaven several day[s]? What do you mean; could you rephrase your question or restate it?

Your next question is also a little confusing to me. Let me say this: Jesus’ death on the cross and resurrection provides the remedy for sinful man’s sin, IF he accepts that payment personally and individually to apply to HIS sins. Doing that is what we call accepting Christ as our own personal Savior. The Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world (1 John 4:14). We are all part of that world, but the remedy does not apply to US individually until WE do something individually to receive it, namely, repent and believe (Acts 20:21).

There is no conflict between Jesus and what the Father sent Him to do, and the Father. Don’t try to invent some scenario where one punishes and the other forgives. One is not more powerful than the other. There is no conflict there. They are in perfect unity of purpose.

Generally, a person is not still punished for the sin that he has been forgiven of. I do not believe the Catholic doctrine of there remaining any “temporal punishment due for sins” after forgiveness except the effects of sin might remain depending on what those are. For example, fornication (sex between two people not married to each other or to anyone else) is a sin, and it may be forgiven. But if it resulted in a sexually transmitted disease, forgiveness of the sin would not automatically remove the disease too. Adam and Eve may have been forgiven for their sin (though we are not specifically told they ever were), but as a result of their sin “death spread to all men” (Romans 5:12), “judgment came to all men” (v.18), and “many were made sinners” (v.19). So, if they were forgiven, they would be in heaven now. But the effect of their sin, the disease to the human race I called spiritual deadness, remained and was transmitted to all humanity.

Your proper response it not to merely ask Why? But to seek and apply the remedy that God Himself has provided for your sins, so YOU will not be punished for them!

Peace

[Phil12123]

"Just as God is Triune (Three in One), man who was made in the image of God is triune. He has a body, soul, and spirit (1 Thess.5:23). It was his spirit that died immediately when Adam ate the forbidden fruit. So he became spiritually dead. That deadness, or sin nature, was passed on to his children and their children and all descendants on down to the present day." Phil

Is this the only part that was sent down according to you?

I mean it seems like your saying, the spirit of Adam died instantly and this, deadness, is what has been passed down.

So as you have stated we are, body soul and spirit. So we see that the death of our spirit has been given to us as a punishment from G-d through Adam's action.

What about the soul and body, what in those sections have we recieved from Adam, if anything.

God, through Paul, said in Romans 6:23:

23. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And God, through James, said in James 1:15:

15. . . . and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

There are at least three different kinds of death: physical, spiritual, and eternal. The last two are the most important, although after the first one, no one can do anything more that will have any effect on the last two. Only in this present life, before physical death, can we do anything to effect or remedy whether we are spiritually dead and will be eternally dead.

As I have stated in my previous posts, the sin or rebellion of Adam and Eve brought forth their spiritual death and ultimately their physical death. If they were forgiven, they are in heaven. If not, they are in hell awaiting the judgment that has them cast into the lake of fire, which is called "the second death" (Revelation 20:14; 21:8; also referred to in Rev. 2:11; 20:6). That is what I call "eternal death." In Rev. 20:12, John says, "I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God..." In his vision, John saw the "dead" stand before God. That would either be referring to the physically dead who at that point had been resurrected, or the spiritually dead, who had never been born again (born spiritually), standing before God. In any event, their names are not written in the Book of Life, so they are cast into the lake of fire.

When we consider a person's body, soul, and spirit, we might break it down thusly:

1. body - the physical aspect of a person. It is a person's tent, or temporary dwelling place, until he gets a new one "not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" (2 Cor. 5:1-4). We get our new one at the resurrection. At that point we will no longer have any sin nature. That is when "the redemption of the body" (Romans 8:23) occurs, when "this corruptible shall have put on incorruption and this mortal shall have put on immortality" (1 Cor. 15:54). At that point, all taint of original sin will have been removed! No more death of any kind!! EVER!!!

2. spirit - the spiritual aspect of a person. It is a person's connection to God, his capacity to commune and have fellowship with God. It is broken by sin, that separates us sinful beings from a Holy, Righteous God. That broken connection is only connected by removal of the sin, and that is done only by payment for the sin. Only Jesus paid for that sin; He is the only sin-offering sent by the Father that is acceptable to the Father. Our acceptance of that offering opens the door to restored connection to God; rejection of it brings eternal judgment for sin.

3. soul - that is the nonphysical, nonspiritual aspect of a person---the real you. It is separate from the body and can live (or exist) when the body dies. Everyone has one, or IS one, and it never dies or ceases to exist. Jesus distinguished the soul and body in Matthew 10:28: "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Occasionally, "soul" and "spirit" are used interchangeably to simply refer to the nonphysical aspect of a person: "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" James 2:26. There "spirit" is just talking about breath, as in the expression, "he breathed his last," or as in the old expression we see in the Bible, "he gave up the ghost [or spirit]."

So, to answer your question, from Adam we got a body that is subject to death (i.e., mortal), and a soul, and a dead or nonexistent spirit. The first will be fully and totally restored at the resurrection. The last is remedied now by a new birth in Christ, when "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6).

Peace

[snakelegs]

EDIT - oooops, i see i had already posted this.
glo, did you say you were sure my memory is fine?? i can't remember.

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

Phil again i think that the explanation of spirit that die is just your perception and not what is written in the bible..right.It is how you inteprete how the word are couched.

Anyway,i dont really accpet your notion that they died spiritually just because they hid themselves from god,,maybe out of shame or self wareness and ill insight that they did not have before,but i do accept that the started to die of normal age...meaning their mortality started..

As for Adam dying at age of 939,i say that adam lived in heaven far longer than a day right so that mathematically mena he is maybe thousand of years old and not just 1 day(god years)...

And i again say that even if a man were to do an ill thing and asked form forgiveness from god and god gives it,that sickness is at his own sickness not god curse..

So in genesis god or the fahter ,cursed womankind with child birth pain..CURSED is the operative word,my question remian the same,in your mind if god has forgiven does he lift the curse or leave it alone..

Unless Jesus that died does not have the power to lift the curse or just forgive spiritually,which no one can see....

But the curse of the fahter remain,which mena either jesus died and forgive spiritually but the father is still angry..

And the son cant undo what the father did..

And finally i would sya that the fahter and the son in your bible is not equal,according to your bible it say that ONLY the fahter know the date of END..no one else..

So let me make my point simple,,,

1)Prove that Adam and Eve died spiritually,,,,hiding and what not does not signify death of the spirit,,,it just mena that they are aware of their selfves.

2)How do we know Jesus died to firgive all sin including original sin if the fahter curse for original sin is not forgiven?Is that a sign of a loving god?

[nimrod]

As far as I know the original sin was committed by Satan, if I remember correctly it was the sin of pride, to the point of him wanting to be considered equal or greater than God.

Thanks
Nimrod

[glo]

EDIT - oooops, i see i had already posted this.
glo, did you say you were sure my memory is fine?? i can't remember.

I said that? When??? ;D

If you posted the same thing twice, it must have been really important to you! Perhaps you should post it a second time ... to make sure we all get it! :rollseyes

Peace.

[Phil12123]

As far as I know the original sin was committed by Satan, if I remember correctly it was the sin of pride, to the point of him wanting to be considered equal or greater than God.

Yes, I think you are right, as far as the first sin ever, in the universe. But I also think that when we speak of "original sin" we are ordinarily speaking of man's first sin, not the universe's first sin ever. Of course, that expression, "original sin," is not found in the Bible, so what it means would probably be whatever the person meant who originated it. Who that was, we don't know, or at least I don't know. Might be an interesting matter of church history to research. But in any event, for purposes of this thread, I think whoever started it probably had in mind the sin of Adam and Eve and its effect, if any, on us today.

Peace

[Phil12123]

Phil again i think that the explanation of spirit that die is just your perception and not what is written in the bible..right.It is how you inteprete how the word are couched.

Anyway,i dont really accpet your notion that they died spiritually just because they hid themselves from god,,maybe out of shame or self wareness and ill insight that they did not have before,but i do accept that the started to die of normal age...meaning their mortality started..

As for Adam dying at age of 939,i say that adam lived in heaven far longer than a day right so that mathematically mena he is maybe thousand of years old and not just 1 day(god years)...

And i again say that even if a man were to do an ill thing and asked form forgiveness from god and god gives it,that sickness is at his own sickness not god curse..

So in genesis god or the fahter ,cursed womankind with child birth pain..CURSED is the operative word,my question remian the same,in your mind if god has forgiven does he lift the curse or leave it alone..

Unless Jesus that died does not have the power to lift the curse or just forgive spiritually,which no one can see....

But the curse of the fahter remain,which mena either jesus died and forgive spiritually but the father is still angry..

And the son cant undo what the father did..

And finally i would sya that the fahter and the son in your bible is not equal,according to your bible it say that ONLY the fahter know the date of END..no one else..

So let me make my point simple,,,

1)Prove that Adam and Eve died spiritually,,,,hiding and what not does not signify death of the spirit,,,it just mena that they are aware of their selfves.

2)How do we know Jesus died to firgive all sin including original sin if the fahter curse for original sin is not forgiven?Is that a sign of a loving god?

I’m sorry you weren’t satisfied with what I’ve already said. I think I answered your questions already. I don’t want to just repeat my answers, as you have with your questions. You are so convinced to the contrary that probably nothing I say will convince you otherwise. So my attempt to give you further answer will probably be fruitless.

Nevertheless, let me say this. Sin produces death. But it is not always physical death. If not physical, what other kind of death is there here and now, except spiritual death? God said to Adam, “In the day you eat thereof, you shall surely die.” Did Adam die physically “in the day [he ate] thereof”? Quite apart from the one-day-equals-a-thousand-years idea, Gen. 5:5 says Adam died at the age of 930 years. He did not die, literally or physically, the very day he ate. So how else could it be said that he died, if not spiritually? If he was body, soul, and spirit, which part died if not his spirit? And why is his hiding from God not clear evidence of his spiritual death?

There are other verses that mention spiritual death without specifically calling it that. For example, Jesus said to a man who wanted to first go bury his father before following Jesus, “Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead” (Matt. 8:22). What does that mean to you? Is it not clear that He was saying, in effect, “Let the spiritually dead bury their physically dead”? How else can we understand that verse? Does it need to specifically say “spiritually dead” before you would accept it as such?

Or consider what Paul said in 1 Timothy 5:6, “She who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives.” Same thing---spiritually dead while she physically lives.

Jesus said, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” (John 3:6). The Greek word for “born” refers to either conceived or birthed. Did your flesh, your physical body, exist BEFORE it was conceived or born? NO. Likewise, your human spirit does not exist BEFORE a new birth experience produced by the Holy Spirit. If you have not been born again, you HAVE NO spirit, or it is a dead, unregenerated spirit. In that case, Jesus’ words to Nicodemus apply equally to you, “You MUST be born again” (John 3:7). Until you are, you are just as dead spiritually as “she who lives in pleasure” or those who were to “bury their dead.”

When a person is born again or “born…of God” (John 1:13), it is only by “receiving” Christ, as opposed to rejecting or not receiving him not (John 1:11-12, NKJV):

11. He came to His own [Jews, Jewish nation, Jewish leaders], and His own did not receive Him [they instead rejected Him, crucified Him, etc.].
12. But as many as received Him [Jewish disciples who accepted and followed Him], to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name:
13. who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

In John 3:36, Jesus said, "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.'' “…shall not see life”---again, it must be spiritual life. Everyone has physical life. So it is talking about spiritual life. Whoever does not believe, or trust in, the Son shall not see, or have, spiritual life.

In John 5:24, Jesus said,

24. "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

The Apostle John wrote in 1 John 3:

14. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides [remains] in death.
15. Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

So, a person can pass from death to life, from spiritually dead to spiritually alive.

In John 11, we have the account of the death of Lazarus. To his grieving sister, Martha, Jesus says:
25 . . ."I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die [physically], he shall live [spiritually now and physically at the resurrection].
26. "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die [spiritually or eternally]. Do you believe this?''

I’m wondering whether the Quran teaches this concept of death and life, spiritual death and spiritual life. If not, that is perhaps why you are questioning all this.

Concerning your second question, let me say this. Just as “original sin” is not specifically called that in Scripture, it does not say that Jesus died specifically for “original sin.” It says He died for our sins, plural. If the effect of Adams’ sin was to make many sinners, that effect will remain as long as men are born into this life. They will grow up, gain the knowledge of good and evil, and will commit the evil---will become “sinners” by choice. When that occurs they are separated from God by their sins and until born again, they will remain in their sins and may ultimately die in their sins. The only way to overcome those sins is to accept the sacrifice Jesus made when He paid for them on the Cross.

Because all people still face physical death and because all people come into this life totally clueless as to spiritual things (or spiritually dead, as I would call it), it is evident that the “curse” or judgment of God upon Adam and Eve as to their “death” when they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, was not “forgiven” or removed, as such. That effect, death, was passed on to all men, down to this present day. We still die. We still are born spiritually dead. That’s why we need to be born again.

What Jesus did was to die for all the sins we commit as spiritually dead creatures, to remove that which otherwise separates us from a Holy, Righteous God. That payment provides a Just God with the basis for forgiving us of all those sins, freely, without any further payment due from us after our physical death. That payment does not remove that physical death, so evidently His death was not to pay for that; His resurrection and overcoming physical death, however, assures us that we too will overcome that.

When you speak of a loving God, do you now see what this loving God did, to provide payment for all the sins that He could otherwise hold against you? He didn’t have to do that. He could simply hold YOU accountable for every evil word, thought, and deed, you have committed over your entire lifetime. He could show you all that at the judgment (if you had any doubt you committed them) and cast you into the lake of fire, and He would be completely JUST to do that. He could say to you, You will pay for all those sins by burning for them for all eternity. But instead, He sent His own sinless Son to take on flesh, live a perfect, sinless life, and then suffer and bleed and die FOR YOU!! And what is your response? To simply parrot or repeat some statement about we each are responsible for our own sins; no one else could die for them? That IS true in terms of us each being responsible and held accountable by God for our sins, and no other sinner being able to die for them. But Christ was the sinless Lamb of God that God Himself sent to pay for them. That is a totally different situation. Reject that and you will die in your sins. Then, all I can say is, you will be paying for all of them yourself for all eternity.


Peace

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

Nevertheless, let me say this. Sin produces death. But it is not always physical death. If not physical, what other kind of death is there here and now, except spiritual death? God said to Adam, “In the day you eat thereof, you shall surely die.” Did Adam die physically “in the day [he ate] thereof”? Quite apart from the one-day-equals-a-thousand-years idea, Gen. 5:5 says Adam died at the age of 930 years. He did not die, literally or physically, the very day he ate. So how else could it be said that he died, if not spiritually? If he was body, soul, and spirit, which part died if not his spirit? And why is his hiding from God not clear evidence of his spiritual death?

Thus again i say you are assuming it is spiritual death aint it,so let me ask this.You say that 1 day of God is equal to 1000 years of man...
Can i say that Adam/Eve was cast out out of heaven (let us assume it is a 24 hour period,god years) at 3AM and was cast on earth from that time,so he will be on earth for 21hrs(god time),but in actual fact will be 930day (earth day or mankind time)...So cna it be said that they died on one day? Yes it can,,,thy started to die the moment they started to eat of the fruit..

“Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead” (Matt. 8:22). What does that mean to you?

What i think is just plain and simply rude...i dont think jesus ever said these word but made up by man..
It would violate the 10 commandment to honour thy mother and father...does the commandment say only in life?Did jesus teach to dishonour the dead?

“She who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives.”

Umm if you go online it say say much about other people who work good deed and are pious and they are spoken well.So that verse only refers to people who take their own selfish needs first than other....

HEre are the prvious verses

4

But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to shew piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God.
5

Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.
trusteth 1st Cor 7:32

So for the rest of your verses are intepreted to mean what you wnat..there is exact verse that say they died for spiritually..

As for your nxt part,again you are wondering about whethr to answer directly if jesus died for all sin except original sin...or all sin?And as you say it does not specifically say ORIGINAL SIN,thus then the forgiveness is limited...Do you then know which sin is forgiven and which is not?
for that is the power of interpretation right?

Because all people still face physical death and because all people come into this life totally clueless as to spiritual things (or spiritually dead, as I would call it), it is evident that the “curse” or judgment of God upon Adam and Eve as to their “death” when they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, was not “forgiven” or removed, as such. That effect, death, was passed on to all men, down to this present day. We still die. We still are born spiritually dead. That’s why we need to be born again.

May i ask,when you say death is the curse of original sin.Ok..then i ask you,When Adam was around he lived till 930 years,,,God gave him to live all those years and bore othr propehcts and lived well to his old age...

Q1)that was blessing from god..or do you consider that a curse?
Q2) What do you say about the low life time of human nowadays all less that 100 years...is that a blessing or a curse?Do note that people of old lived far longer and in time out life time slow ly reduced...In your context as death,does that mena we are sinning more NOW than before even the born again?

Concerning your second question, let me say this. Just as “original sin” is not specifically called that in Scripture, it does not say that Jesus died specifically for “original sin.” It says He died for our sins, plural. If the effect of Adams’ sin was to make many sinners, that effect will remain as long as men are born into this life. They will grow up, gain the knowledge of good and evil, and will commit the evil---will become “sinners” by choice. When that occurs they are separated from God by their sins and until born again, they will remain in their sins and may ultimately die in their sins. The only way to overcome those sins is to accept the sacrifice Jesus made when He paid for them on the Cross.

Again this goes back to the othr qustion i had,why is it chrisitan/cahtolics whom have been in that religon for generation still show the curse ? If the parents are already forgiven and accepted jesus ,does that mean his children still suffer?Is it not better if the childrn of such familees be born free of curses and take the punishment upon thmeselves when they do err? Just like adam and eve was punished ONLY WHEN THEY ERRED and not before?

And so to sum it up,my thought is that,you try to define his death and his affect in an unmeasureable way.for me as a plain man..and not as a muslim,why would a god say he loves and forgives then lets the curses remain?

Like i said before,if as you say god sent his "son",a "pure" "sinless" man to die for man sin,,if he cna go to such extent surely he cna remove the curses that has plagued mankind or womankind to be exact....it should be trivial,right..

But here we have a discussion on the affect of his "death" and it is not apparent and contradictory to the bible..or rahter contrary to the fahter..
so either the son forgives but has no power...and the fahter is still angry..

thank for the discussion it is nice to learn and explore new things..

[Chief1]

Phil12123 Excellent post!
Zulkiflim I think you still don't get what the likes of Phil are trying to explain.
Of course Jesus (who was God incarnate when he walked this earth) can do as he wishes & remove all effects of original sin & He promises to do just that one day (New heavens & earth in the Revelation) Untill then we ALL live with the effects of Adams sins & the sins of many others. Our whole world is dieing & yes our years have been shortened because of our wickedness.
Is the Father still angry with us? No, but we are left to live with the consequences of Adams & Eve's sin. If there were no consequences for our actions (right or wrong) we wouldn't care whether we did right or wrong. It's a simple principal that YOU & I observe constantly & submit ourselves to every day.
I know that if I go out & shoot someone today even thou the act might only take a moment to do the effects of that act will be around for the rest of time. God may forgive me but the only way to wipe out the effects would be to travel back in time before the shooting & take a different course of action (not to shoot ) We can be forgiven for the ACT which is sinfull but do you think God is going to "rewind" our lives to avoid the effects of our sins????????? What a strange world that would be! You'd be driveing off to work, next Screech!!! the car would back up 100mtrs because someone sinned & asked forgiveness & God was going to make it all as if it never happened. That's not how God chooses to operate, rather we learn to live with the consequences of our actions.

Peace!

[Zulkiflim]

Phil12123 Excellent post!
Zulkiflim I think you still don't get what the likes of Phil are trying to explain.
Of course Jesus (who was God incarnate when he walked this earth) can do as he wishes & remove all effects of original sin & He promises to do just that one day (New heavens & earth in the Revelation) Untill then we ALL live with the effects of Adams sins & the sins of many others. Our whole world is dieing & yes our years have been shortened because of our wickedness.
Is the Father still angry with us? No, but we are left to live with the consequences of Adams & Eve's sin. If there were no consequences for our actions (right or wrong) we wouldn't care whether we did right or wrong. It's a simple principal that YOU & I observe constantly & submit ourselves to every day.
I know that if I go out & shoot someone today even thou the act might only take a moment to do the effects of that act will be around for the rest of time. God may forgive me but the only way to wipe out the effects would be to travel back in time before the shooting & take a different course of action (not to shoot ) We can be forgiven for the ACT which is sinfull but do you think God is going to "rewind" our lives to avoid the effects of our sins????????? What a strange world that would be! You'd be driveing off to work, next Screech!!! the car would back up 100mtrs because someone sinned & asked forgiveness & God was going to make it all as if it never happened. That's not how God chooses to operate, rather we learn to live with the consequences of our actions.

Peace!

Salaam,

Again i ask casue when you explain it it isyour interpretation of what you think god is thinking..

Your interpretation that god forgives but leave the curse alone.

But we are talking about GOD not man.You finite wisdom is limited while god is not.
your power is limited but god is not.

So response is still the same,tell me categorically if god forgives all SIN including original sin.

If not then please tell me which sin is forgiven.

Also i agree that god can forgive a murderer but the deceased will still be lost,that is a spiritual forgiveness correct,and from there come peace.He will still be punished for his deeds but he wont judged for that sin.

But now,despite all the numerous chrisitan and the genreation of christians the curse on women of child birth pain is still apparent.
we are not talking about man forgivness but god..In many stories in the bible there are times when god cursed then forgave and the curse was lifted.
Thus god inflicted a physical curse,yet supposedly forgives and leave the curse behind?

We are talking about god here,do you trully worship a god that forgives but yet leave the punishment?
Is that a sign of a loving and understanding god?

[4-Christ-Alone]

I would like to add that sin is not something that exsists like an apple or a banana, its not a "thing". Just like cold doesnt exsit, cold is just the lack of heat, the same as darkness is the lack of light. In the same way sin does not exsist it is lack of goodness or better lack of God.

I believe when Adam sinned he brought death into the world as God warned and a seperation between man and God. And i believe we inherited this nature from adam.

I might be goin off topic here but im goin to tell of a story i read that might help people understand what God did for our sin....

There was 2 boys who grew up together being best freinds. eventually when they grew up they grew apart. One of them became a judje and another became a criminal. A while later the criminal had to appear in court against his old friend who was to judge him. The judge recognised his old friend, and because he loved him he didnt want to punish him, but as he was a fair judge he had to! So he fined his old freind, stepped down as judge, wrote a check and offered to pay his friends punishment! If his friend didnt want his gift of the cheque he wud have to pay the punishment himself.

In the same way christians beleive this is what God has done for the world, man sinned, God has to judje sin but at the same time loves us so he stepped down to take our punishment for us. But the punishment isnt only a fine its eternal seperation from God, and it didnt cost God just a check it cost him his only begotten son.

God bless

[Ghazi]

:sl:

take our punishment for us.

hold one why does god have to take the punishment in the story you related the judge would have had to answer to a higher authority but who does god have to answer to?

[4-Christ-Alone]

i was expecting a lame reply to that story, cmon ur brighter than that, im ususing the stroy as an example!

Thats like asking me "How do u know the judge could afford to pay his friends fine" Thats not imprtant and neither is the question u asked.

[Ghazi]

i was expecting a lame reply to that story, cmon ur brighter than that, im ususing the stroy as an example!

Thats like asking me "How do u know the judge could afford to pay his friends fine" Thats not imprtant and neither is the question u asked.

:sl:

Actually it is, God is the most high who created everything so why does he have to take punishment when he created everything, no let me put you in situation say for example you were a king and your old friend commited murder and you had the power to forgive him and forget about it and the punishment for murder was death, would you A) Forgive him or B) forgive him and kill your self, remember you don't answer to anyone.

[Zulkiflim]

I would like to add that sin is not something that exsists like an apple or a banana, its not a "thing". Just like cold doesnt exsit, cold is just the lack of heat, the same as darkness is the lack of light. In the same way sin does not exsist it is lack of goodness or better lack of God.

I believe when Adam sinned he brought death into the world as God warned and a seperation between man and God. And i believe we inherited this nature from adam.

I might be goin off topic here but im goin to tell of a story i read that might help people understand what God did for our sin....

There was 2 boys who grew up together being best freinds. eventually when they grew up they grew apart. One of them became a judje and another became a criminal. A while later the criminal had to appear in court against his old friend who was to judge him. The judge recognised his old friend, and because he loved him he didnt want to punish him, but as he was a fair judge he had to! So he fined his old freind, stepped down as judge, wrote a check and offered to pay his friends punishment! If his friend didnt want his gift of the cheque he wud have to pay the punishment himself.

In the same way christians beleive this is what God has done for the world, man sinned, God has to judje sin but at the same time loves us so he stepped down to take our punishment for us. But the punishment isnt only a fine its eternal seperation from God, and it didnt cost God just a check it cost him his only begotten son.

God bless

Salaam,

I agree that sin is not tangible but supposedly the curse for original sin is quite clear according to the bible..
thorn thislt,women cursed with child birth and of course as you say death.

Heya,also using your story right,i assume that the crimial is fined with a large amount....and the judge punished then offered to pay for it..

in this case isnt the punishment averted? the criminal did not pay a single cent for the judge,his friend paid for it..so the criminal did not suffer.

But in the case i am placing to you now.if another judge say that he is not forgiven and is unrepentant he ahs to pay a double amount..

that is what i emant by one (jesus) forgiving and another still punishing(the father).

Do you understand?


So supposedly god died for man sin...but the curse or punishment he leaves behind..

WHY?


i think basically you cannot come to grip with the notion that you are forgiven but yet cursed,you think that you are spiritually forgiven but still suffer the curse original sin.

But that is just your interpreation,,the curse remain,the notion of spiritual forgivness is also an "explanation" of man desire.

[4-Christ-Alone]

Actually it is, God is the most high who created everything so why does he have to take punishment when he created everything, no let me put you in situation say for example you were a king and your old friend commited murder and you had the power to forgive him and forget about it and the punishment for murder was death, would you A) Forgive him or B) forgive him and kill your self, remember you don't answer to anyone.

Yes God is the most high who created everything, but u have to understand God has a nature, u can say he can forgive sin without punishemnt but that wud go against his nature as the judge not punishing wud go against his job. its not a question whether God has the power to forgive, its a question of what is Gods nature? his nature is to punish wrong doing, and what makes God so awesome is that he came down and paid that for us.

i think basically you cannot come to grip with the notion that you are forgiven but yet cursed,you think that you are spiritually forgiven but still suffer the curse original sin.

explain what u mean? does this answer u in saying Jesus died so we could be forgiven, Jesus dying didnt mean sin was gone, even christian sin, as long as man is choosing sin then the effects of sin is going to take place, but if man chooses Christ one day that curse will be lifted and we will all be made sinless.

God bless

[Ghazi]

Yes God is the most high who created everything, but u have to understand God has a nature, u can say he can forgive sin without punishemnt but that wud go against his nature as the judge not punishing wud go against his job. its not a question whether God has the power to forgive, its a question of what is Gods nature? his nature is to punish wrong doing, and what makes God so awesome is that he came down and paid that for us.



explain what u mean? does this answer u in saying Jesus died so we could be forgiven, Jesus dying didnt mean sin was gone, even christian sin, as long as man is choosing sin then the effects of sin is going to take place, but if man chooses Christ one day that curse will be lifted and we will all be made sinless.

God bless

:sl:

But what judge would punish them selfs god is pure so why would he inflict punishment on him self cause of a sin of humans.

[4-Christ-Alone]

Im sure you have heard of the word "Love" . We messud up and God help his children, if a fathers son was in trouble he wud help him, mosts fathers wud die for his children because he loves them, Just think how much more our father in heaven loves us!

God bless friend

[Ghazi]

Im sure you have heard of the word "Love" . We messud up and God help his children, if a fathers son was in trouble he wud help him, mosts fathers wud die for his children because he loves them, Just think how much more our father in heaven loves us!

God bless friend

:sl:

That doesn't apply to god since he created everything, theres no need for him to die since he created death, god is above everything he created the punishment so why use it on him self when he controls it.

[4-Christ-Alone]

im sorry but im not getting sense from that.

God bless

[4-Christ-Alone]

love doesnt apply to God?

[Ghazi]

im sorry but im not getting sense from that.

God bless

:sl:

You used the example of our farthers giving their lives for us, then you compared that to god then I asked why would god die for us since he controls death wouldn't he just be imune to our human flaws.

[albee]

:sl:

That doesn't apply to god since he created everything, theres no need for him to die since he created death, god is above everything he created the punishment so why use it on him self when he controls it.

Hello and greetings

For what its worth, I'm not certain that God did actually create death.What He done was to warn Adam that the inevitable result of disobedience to God would result in death.
We do know that God, at some time in the distant past, created the Lake of Fire, which was created for the devil and his angels, (but as yet is uninhabited).
So, it seems that death, (the end of physical experience) was brought on by man himself but somewhere within Gods creation is Hades, where the souls of the dead await the day of Judgement.
Because all have sinned in some form or another, Hades seems to have a legal right to keep those departed souls trapped there.

Jesus came to "undo" the devils work, and part of that undoing was accomplished in Hades. Because, unlike us, Jesus NEVER sinned, and although,according to the Bible,His soul went to Hades, that place did not have any legal right to keep Him there.
Jesus won the battle over all of our sins, and the devil ,at His death on the Cross,and His victory extended into Hades.
On the third day after His physical body had been executed,His sinless soul re-united with His risen Body.
Jesus has tasted death, the tomb, and Hades (all the result of our sins) and has had the Victory over them all.

And that Victory is shared by all those That Jesus died to save.

That is why Jesus said that He is the ressurection and the life, and that all who beleive in Him, even though they die, they will live. Those who believe in Jesus for what He has done, pass through death into life, and that means NO Hades !!
This is part of the good news that Jesus wants the whole of humanity to hear and beleive!!!
He is the difference between everlasting death and everlasting life !!

Albee

[Phil12123]

There was 2 boys who grew up together being best friends. Eventually when they grew up they grew apart. One of them became a judge and another became a criminal. A while later the criminal had to appear in court against his old friend who was to judge him. The judge recognised his old friend, and because he loved him he didn’t want to punish him, but as he was a fair judge he had to! So he fined his old friend, stepped down as judge, wrote a check and offered to pay his friends punishment! If his friend didn’t want his gift of the cheque he would have to pay the punishment himself.

In the same way Christians believe this is what God has done for the world, man sinned, God has to judge sin but at the same time loves us so he stepped down to take our punishment for us. But the punishment isn’t only a fine its eternal separation from God, and it didn’t cost God just a check it cost him his only begotten son.

hold on why does god have to take the punishment in the story you related the judge would have had to answer to a higher authority but who does god have to answer to?

i was expecting a lame reply to that story, cmon ur brighter than that, im using the story as an example!

That’s like asking me "How do u know the judge could afford to pay his friend’s fine" That’s not important and neither is the question u asked.

Excellent story illustration of what God did for us in sending His Son to die for us. God to be JUST must punish ALL sin. But in His LOVE and MERCY to us, He sends Christ to die for our sins, to pay for them IN FULL.

Romans 5:8 - - But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 Peter 3:18 - - For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit.

Peace

[Phil12123]

By the way, every person is faced with this choice:

Either (1) believe the Bible when it says Christ died for our sins and rose again.

Consequence of believing that: His payment, along with your repentance, means you are no longer under condemnation for those sins ("There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." -Romans 8:1 (NAS)).

Or (2) believe the Quran when it says Christ never died (let alone for anyone's sins).

Consequence of believing that: You have no sin-bearer and you must pay for all your own sins for all eternity.

Very simple choice but it has profound, eternal consequences.

Personally, I believe Muhammud did not understand the need for Christ to die for our sins. In addition, to him that would have meant defeat, when in fact it meant our eternal victory over sin, death, the grave, all that is evil and all of the effects of evil. No angel ever told him that Christ did NOT die for sins. And even if an angel did tell him that, the angel, according to Paul, is accursed:

Galatians 1:

8. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

The "gospel" is defined by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:

1. Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2. by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you unless you believed in vain.
3. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4. and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures.

So the choice is simple. Believe the Bible and the Gospel and be saved. Or believe the Quran which denies the Gospel and be lost.

Peace

[Zulkiflim]

By the way, every person is faced with this choice:

Either (1) believe the Bible when it says Christ died for our sins and rose again.

Consequence of believing that: His payment, along with your repentance, means you are no longer under condemnation for those sins ("There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." -Romans 8:1 (NAS)).

Or (2) believe the Quran when it says Christ never died (let alone for anyone's sins).

Consequence of believing that: You have no sin-bearer and you must pay for all your own sins for all eternity.

Very simple choice but it has profound, eternal consequences.

Personally, I believe Muhammud did not understand the need for Christ to die for our sins. In addition, to him that would have meant defeat, when in fact it meant our eternal victory over sin, death, the grave, all that is evil and all of the effects of evil. No angel ever told him that Christ did NOT die for sins. And even if an angel did tell him that, the angel, according to Paul, is accursed:

Galatians 1:

8. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

The "gospel" is defined by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:

1. Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2. by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you unless you believed in vain.
3. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4. and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures.

So the choice is simple. Believe the Bible and the Gospel and be saved. Or believe the Quran which denies the Gospel and be lost.

Peace

Salaam,

So as you say it is a personal choice in this matter.
But the Bible makes clear what actually the death is for.
forgiveness from sin,,all sin correct.
But then the curse for original sin still exist.
So again youa re correct it is eprsonal choice,to believe you are forgiven by a gods death but yet still cursed by another god.

Or you can beleive that you bear your own sin,that if you atone for that sin then it is forgiven and not eternal as you surmised.
In Islam death is not necessary for firgiveness,Allah is Almighty he can forgive for his mercy is BOUNDLESS.


so i say to you,accept Islam and be forgiven for your sin..To live each day with Allah in your memories to,be follow the laws.

Or stay in your errornous way and think you are forgiven but still bear the curse of original sin...still be cursed by your god(the father)

[4-Christ-Alone]

Yes the curse of origninal sin still exsists but thats because people still sin. But the punishment for sin has been paid, by Jesus Christ, so that who so ever believes in him shall not persih but have eternal life! Revelation says there is no curse in heaven because there is no sin in heaven, and those who choose to accept Jesus and live a life following him, will one day be made sinless. But those who choose to reject the gospel will face an eternal seperation from our heavenly father.

If i followed something of the normal i would be a fool, i lived a life of drugs parties drinking crime and i have to admitt i enjoyed my sin, but i found something real exciting alive and powerful come into my life. I experienced the love joy peace power and works of Jesus Christ in my life, i would not leave my old life and friends for something of the ordinery, i was saved bye the supernatural and extraordinery that i know in myself that Jesus Christ is truely the son of God.

God bless

[Umar001]

I will post on this when I have finished other articles inshallah.

Sorry for anyone who has adressed me please be patient with me

Eesa

[Zulkiflim]

Yes the curse of origninal sin still exsists but thats because people still sin. But the punishment for sin has been paid, by Jesus Christ, so that who so ever believes in him shall not persih but have eternal life! Revelation says there is no curse in heaven because there is no sin in heaven, and those who choose to accept Jesus and live a life following him, will one day be made sinless. But those who choose to reject the gospel will face an eternal seperation from our heavenly father.

If i followed something of the normal i would be a fool, i lived a life of drugs parties drinking crime and i have to admitt i enjoyed my sin, but i found something real exciting alive and powerful come into my life. I experienced the love joy peace power and works of Jesus Christ in my life, i would not leave my old life and friends for something of the ordinery, i was saved bye the supernatural and extraordinery that i know in myself that Jesus Christ is truely the son of God.

God bless

Salaam,

Alhamdulilah,so you do admit that the sin still exist.

But again i point out to you that you cannot prove that youa re forgiven spirutally.
But there is ample prove that you are not forgiven THOUROUGHLY,and PHYSICALLY.

For when you say forgiven and yet unforgiven..it is a paradox.It is an interpretation,of you wishes of what you want a statement to be.

I just wish to reiterate that we are talkling about GOD,a being omnipotent and and omnicient.
All powerful and all aware and yet decided to FORGIVE but not remove the curse.

What is logic behingd that?

[Zulkiflim]

Im sure you have heard of the word "Love" . We messud up and God help his children, if a fathers son was in trouble he wud help him, mosts fathers wud die for his children because he loves them, Just think how much more our father in heaven loves us!

God bless friend

Salaam,

Love is an emotion and specifically a man made emotion to explain somthing that casues us to do heoric acts and unbridling compassion and caring for a stranger.

Such a word was used in teh chrisitna context to much horror of a muslim such as myslf.

May i ask,when you speak about love,do you think that god loves men and men to fornicate?
Do god love womena dn women to fornicate?
Or does your bible do not contain sadom and gammorah?

Alternative churches in san francisco go so far as to say,,GOD IS LOVE,WHY DOES GOD CREATE US THE WAY WE ARE IF HE DID NOT INTEND IT TO BE...

The vry notion of love has casued the church to abandon many laws that are in the bible,forgetting pubishment in the name of love and thus going agains tthe law set in the bible..

Is it love that make chrisitan to abandon the bible laws?
Or is it man desire?



So pls,do not throw the word love around to explain the notion self involvement.

[4-Christ-Alone]

All powerful and all aware and yet decided to FORGIVE but not remove the curse.

What is logic behingd that?

If there was no sin there would be no curse but there still is sin, Jesus didnt lift the curse but he payed the punishment, its not that hard to understand?

But again i point out to you that you cannot prove that youa re forgiven spirutally.

I never said i could mate, but you cannot prove your sins are forgiven, like i said i have proved to myslef that Jesus us alive, thats all i need to know.

Salaam,

Love is an emotion and specifically a man made emotion to explain somthing that casues us to do heoric acts and unbridling compassion and caring for a stranger.

Such a word was used in teh chrisitna context to much horror of a muslim such as myslf.

May i ask,when you speak about love,do you think that god loves men and men to fornicate?
Do god love womena dn women to fornicate?
Or does your bible do not contain sadom and gammorah?

Alternative churches in san francisco go so far as to say,,GOD IS LOVE,WHY DOES GOD CREATE US THE WAY WE ARE IF HE DID NOT INTEND IT TO BE...

The vry notion of love has casued the church to abandon many laws that are in the bible,forgetting pubishment in the name of love and thus going agains tthe law set in the bible..

Is it love that make chrisitan to abandon the bible laws?
Or is it man desire?



So pls,do not throw the word love around to explain the notion self involvement.

Ok your defining what love is? and your saying its a made made emotion, ive never herd anything like this, are you crazy? Love is not only a feeling its a doing.

Does God love men and men to fornicate? what do u mean? that is a weird question?

Ansd yes the bible contains sodom and gommarah? so?

God created us with free will, if he didnt we would all be robots, but he wanted to give us the choice between him, and rejection of him. He had to make another option available.

What church has love cause to abandon the bible laws? remeber there are many different churchs with different donominations.

Dont throw the word love about? i have experienced the love of God and you cannot say i havnt, so dont tell me not to throw the word about.

God bless

[Zulkiflim]

If there was no sin there would be no curse but there still is sin, Jesus didnt lift the curse but he payed the punishment, its not that hard to understand?



I never said i could mate, but you cannot prove your sins are forgiven, like i said i have proved to myslef that Jesus us alive, thats all i need to know.



Ok your defining what love is? and your saying its a made made emotion, ive never herd anything like this, are you crazy? Love is not only a feeling its a doing.

Does God love men and men to fornicate? what do u mean? that is a weird question?

Ansd yes the bible contains sodom and gommarah? so?

God created us with free will, if he didnt we would all be robots, but he wanted to give us the choice between him, and rejection of him. He had to make another option available.

What church has love cause to abandon the bible laws? remeber there are many different churchs with different donominations.

Dont throw the word love about? i have experienced the love of God and you cannot say i havnt, so dont tell me not to throw the word about.

God bless

Salaam,

Again i say,as you say,jesus paid the payment,,may i ask you,if he has paid for all sin for christians,why are you then still inflicted with curses?
Even in a secular or shariah court when you have done your time in incarceration you are then let go to begina new life.In the eyes of law you ahve paid your due and thus accorded all states of a human being and a citizen.
But what about chrisitan,you claim you are forgiven and the punishment meted out on god but yet this god still curse..

Dont you still get it...
Do you worship a god that forgives but yet curses what he has forgiven?
Is that a loving god?


As for sin being forgiven,i cannot prove it NOR COULD you despite all the irrational argument you come out with,the most paughable is when you talk about spiritual forgivness,but yet still cursed physically.
As i siad in a previous post,if Adam died at 930,when he was the first sinner,and now man dies at the age less than 100,,,does that not mena the curse has become worser,,thus you are never forgiven.


I asked you about fornicationa dn sodom and gammorah casue supposedly the notion of love can explain away all of god law.

Check this out..the anglican church now apporves of a gay bishop,in san francisco there are gay churches and the partake of "my body" literally..
So are you sayin these diferent denomination dont have sodom and gammorah in their bible?
Or do they choose not to see.
The church leaders say LOVE casues them to choose these alternative lifestyle whcih god condemmned,,so why dont you?


Also i dare say you have not experienced the love of god but the love of friendhsip that you gain from a community of like minded individuals,it is called friendship.
If the love of god casues you to abandon the bible then may i ask are you following god laws or your own.

God loves and do get angry and gives punishment,unless of course you have edited the stories of how many civilisation are destroyed by god wrath..

Love yes but it is tempered with obedience with the laws that is good for man..

[Umar001]

God, through Paul, said in Romans 6:23:

23. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And God, through James, said in James 1:15:

15. . . . and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

There are at least three different kinds of death: physical, spiritual, and eternal. The last two are the most important, although after the first one, no one can do anything more that will have any effect on the last two. Only in this present life, before physical death, can we do anything to effect or remedy whether we are spiritually dead and will be eternally dead.

As I have stated in my previous posts, the sin or rebellion of Adam and Eve brought forth their spiritual death and ultimately their physical death. If they were forgiven, they are in heaven. If not, they are in hell awaiting the judgment that has them cast into the lake of fire, which is called "the second death" (Revelation 20:14; 21:8; also referred to in Rev. 2:11; 20:6). That is what I call "eternal death." In Rev. 20:12, John says, "I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God..." In his vision, John saw the "dead" stand before God. That would either be referring to the physically dead who at that point had been resurrected, or the spiritually dead, who had never been born again (born spiritually), standing before God. In any event, their names are not written in the Book of Life, so they are cast into the lake of fire.

When we consider a person's body, soul, and spirit, we might break it down thusly:

1. body - the physical aspect of a person. It is a person's tent, or temporary dwelling place, until he gets a new one "not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" (2 Cor. 5:1-4). We get our new one at the resurrection. At that point we will no longer have any sin nature. That is when "the redemption of the body" (Romans 8:23) occurs, when "this corruptible shall have put on incorruption and this mortal shall have put on immortality" (1 Cor. 15:54). At that point, all taint of original sin will have been removed! No more death of any kind!! EVER!!!

2. spirit - the spiritual aspect of a person. It is a person's connection to God, his capacity to commune and have fellowship with God. It is broken by sin, that separates us sinful beings from a Holy, Righteous God. That broken connection is only connected by removal of the sin, and that is done only by payment for the sin. Only Jesus paid for that sin; He is the only sin-offering sent by the Father that is acceptable to the Father. Our acceptance of that offering opens the door to restored connection to God; rejection of it brings eternal judgment for sin.

3. soul - that is the nonphysical, nonspiritual aspect of a person---the real you. It is separate from the body and can live (or exist) when the body dies. Everyone has one, or IS one, and it never dies or ceases to exist. Jesus distinguished the soul and body in Matthew 10:28: "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Occasionally, "soul" and "spirit" are used interchangeably to simply refer to the nonphysical aspect of a person: "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" James 2:26. There "spirit" is just talking about breath, as in the expression, "he breathed his last," or as in the old expression we see in the Bible, "he gave up the ghost [or spirit]."

So, to answer your question, from Adam we got a body that is subject to death (i.e., mortal), and a soul, and a dead or nonexistent spirit. The first will be fully and totally restored at the resurrection. The last is remedied now by a new birth in Christ, when "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6).

Peace

Sorry about my late reply been just doing stuff, havent had time to fully dedicate time to this so i chose to leave it till I cud in order to provide the proper attention that should be applied out of respect and clear intentnion to learn.

I will reply with a short question because I am still trying to make sure I understand your view point without me personally assuming anything.

So from my understanding you are saying that, we have inherited defects from Adam, one for example is having a "dead" spirit, until we are born again, and only two of these defects can be altered in this life, 1 the spiritual aspect 2. the eternal soul aspect, but the body is no matter what gonna be subject to death in this life, and we have no chance of changing that until after we are ressurected?

[Umar001]

explain what u mean? does this answer u in saying Jesus died so we could be forgiven, Jesus dying didnt mean sin was gone, even christian sin, as long as man is choosing sin then the effects of sin is going to take place, but if man chooses Christ one day that curse will be lifted and we will all be made sinless.

God bless

Peace, nice speaking to you again after a while.

Hope all is well.

I am just wondering if you could clarify something for me, I am trying to be careful not to get the wrong understanding so please be patient with me.

From the above quote it seems to me your saying that, the effect of sin, things like people dying and women giving birth in pain are only happening because the person that died had sinned and the woman who gives birth in pain has sinned.

But if they had not sinned they wouldnt die or give birth in pain.

Is this a right understanding of your view point?

[Umar001]

By the way, every person is faced with this choice:

Either (1) believe the Bible when it says Christ died for our sins and rose again.

Consequence of believing that: His payment, along with your repentance, means you are no longer under condemnation for those sins ("There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." -Romans 8:1 (NAS)).

Or (2) believe the Quran when it says Christ never died (let alone for anyone's sins).

Consequence of believing that: You have no sin-bearer and you must pay for all your own sins for all eternity.

Very simple choice but it has profound, eternal consequences.

Personally, I believe Muhammud did not understand the need for Christ to die for our sins. In addition, to him that would have meant defeat, when in fact it meant our eternal victory over sin, death, the grave, all that is evil and all of the effects of evil. No angel ever told him that Christ did NOT die for sins. And even if an angel did tell him that, the angel, according to Paul, is accursed:

Galatians 1:

8. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

The "gospel" is defined by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:

1. Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2. by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you unless you believed in vain.
3. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4. and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures.

So the choice is simple. Believe the Bible and the Gospel and be saved. Or believe the Quran which denies the Gospel and be lost.

Peace

Or you can believe in a G-d which forgives those who truly repent without him being subdued by laws of having to sacrafise things.

[duskiness]

But if they had not sinned they wouldnt die or give birth in pain.

Is this a right understanding of your view point?

i'm not 4-Christ-Alone, so you have to wait for him, but i can qoute this part you are talking about:

16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.

18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

so it seems that "pains in childbearing" are not a matter of personal sin. you may be "sinless" and still it will hurt (as long as you are alive)
BTW; giving birth to human children is so painfull because of 2 things:
1) that we walk on 2 legs and this have changed our pelvis
2) size of brain
so pain is a price for knowlegde (of good and evil). not only in Bible but also in antrophology ;)
n.

[4-Christ-Alone]

Zulkifilm

Ill try to explain better for you mate. First ill explain what sin is, sin is not something that exsists, like an apple or a banana, just like cold does not exist, coldness is the lack of heat. The same as darkness is the lack of light. So sin in the same way is lack of good, or better lack of God. Sin was never created, a choice other than God was made available which is "evil" or "sin" because God is good.

So, the wages of sin is "death" ( Romans 6:23 ) and an eternal seperation from God! But the free gift of God is eternal "life" through Christ Jesus our Lord. So Jesus came to take the hand of man, and take the hand of his father and join us together. Jesus didnt come to take the curse away from the physical world, but to take away the eternal consiquences from sin of the spiritual world.

IsaA....

Good to see you again also, i will reply to what u said 2mor night i am tried at the moment lol.

God bless

Sean

[Zulkiflim]

Zulkifilm

Ill try to explain better for you mate. First ill explain what sin is, sin is not something that exsists, like an apple or a banana, just like cold does not exist, coldness is the lack of heat. The same as darkness is the lack of light. So sin in the same way is lack of good, or better lack of God. Sin was never created, a choice other than God was made available which is "evil" or "sin" because God is good.

So, the wages of sin is "death" ( Romans 6:23 ) and an eternal seperation from God! But the free gift of God is eternal "life" through Christ Jesus our Lord. So Jesus came to take the hand of man, and take the hand of his father and join us together. Jesus didnt come to take the curse away from the physical world, but to take away the eternal consiquences from sin of the spiritual world.

IsaA....

Good to see you again also, i will reply to what u said 2mor night i am tried at the moment lol.

God bless

Sean

Salaam,

I never said sin is tangible.But again we are not discussing on what sin is but the affects of sin.

We have already concluded by the bible that supposedly for the origianl sin,got the fathr cursed adam and eve,with thorn and thistle to the world,eve with child birth pain and men dominion over women.

Thus we can conclude form the bible that god war wroth and cursed.

We have also concluded that there are many times when GOD cursed a people or a community but then forgave them and the punishement was lifted.It is easy for god is it not?

But now we come to the current.If Jesus died to save chrisitan from sin,why then does the curse still resound in every chrisitan now?

ANd when you say sin is the lack of GOD,do you then denounce all the OT,of all the Propehts who were led by GOD to save the different races?Do you denounce the way of atonement set in the OT?

When you say the wages of sin is "Death"...may i ask,dont w have to die to enter eternal life?Thus death is a prerequisite preceding eternal life.

My question has always been simple but so far the quesiton and point raised by yourself and others ,begs more question.

[Umar001]

i'm not 4-Christ-Alone, so you have to wait for him, but i can qoute this part you are talking about:



so it seems that "pains in childbearing" are not a matter of personal sin. you may be "sinless" and still it will hurt (as long as you are alive)
BTW; giving birth to human children is so painfull because of 2 things:
1) that we walk on 2 legs and this have changed our pelvis
2) size of brain
so pain is a price for knowlegde (of good and evil). not only in Bible but also in antrophology ;)
n.

What is antrophology?

Lol and are you telling me they walked on all 4s before the fall? :p

Sean bro take your time please.

[duskiness]

What is antrophology?

a mistake in spelling :) "anthropology"

Lol and are you telling me they walked on all 4s before the fall? :p

:giggling: of course not! i'm rather doing thing that shouldn't be done - mixing religion and science ;)
n.

[Umar001]

a mistake in spelling :) "anthropology"

:giggling: of course not! i'm rather doing thing that shouldn't be done - mixing religion and science ;)
n.

I wouldnt have noticed and didnt notice that spelling mistake

and science and religion mixin aint that bad of a thing :p

[4-Christ-Alone]

We have also concluded that there are many times when GOD cursed a people or a community but then forgave them and the punishement was lifted.It is easy for god is it not?

Can you please give some references?

ANd when you say sin is the lack of GOD,do you then denounce all the OT,of all the Propehts who were led by GOD to save the different races?Do you denounce the way of atonement set in the OT?

why wud i be denouncing that? if a man is evil and living in sin is this lack of God in his life? yes! so i dont know wat you mean by that.

But now we come to the current.If Jesus died to save chrisitan from sin,why then does the curse still resound in every chrisitan now?

Maybe u didnt understand, Jesus didnt come so the curse of sin could be lifted in physical life, He came to pay the eternal punishemnt for sin, he came so that when we pass through to the spiritual world, and we are standing before God, we will not have to answer for the wrongs we have did, but only if we die believing, following and accepting his son Jesus as our saviour. You can understand that. The curse of sin in this life is not important, its not a punishment, you are speaking as if christians are burdoned with this huge curse, when really we are the most blessed people alive to know someone like Jesus Christ.

When you say the wages of sin is "Death"...may i ask,dont w have to die to enter eternal life?Thus death is a prerequisite preceding eternal life.

Yes our physical bodies die, isnt that obvious? But what happens to our spirit? When paul wrote the wages of sin is death he didnt mean physically dyeing!

My question has always been simple but so far the quesiton and point raised by yourself and others ,begs more question.

My answer has been simple alough i dont expect u to accept any answer right or wrong.

God bless

[Zulkiflim]

Can you please give some references?



why wud i be denouncing that? if a man is evil and living in sin is this lack of God in his life? yes! so i dont know wat you mean by that.



Maybe u didnt understand, Jesus didnt come so the curse of sin could be lifted in physical life, He came to pay the eternal punishemnt for sin, he came so that when we pass through to the spiritual world, and we are standing before God, we will not have to answer for the wrongs we have did, but only if we die believing, following and accepting his son Jesus as our saviour. You can understand that. The curse of sin in this life is not important, its not a punishment, you are speaking as if christians are burdoned with this huge curse, when really we are the most blessed people alive to know someone like Jesus Christ.



Yes our physical bodies die, isnt that obvious? But what happens to our spirit? When paul wrote the wages of sin is death he didnt mean physically dyeing!



My answer has been simple alough i dont expect u to accept any answer right or wrong.

God bless

Salaam,

Actually it is kind of funny when you ask for refernce.
May i ask do you then say god has never forgiven people when they have been cursed?

why then are we having this conversation?
LOLOL..Casue arent you very sure that you are forgiven adn that the curse of eternal death is lifted from you?


As for denouncing the old prophets i asked you casue of your words..."lack of good or lack of god...but the old propehts were guided by god...or do you denounce their teaching to their individual races with divine teaching?

Are they then not with god?

Again you make a mention about physical and spiritual forgivness...
Again i reiterate that is just a notion,a man made notion now where proven.
for the simple question is ,why would forgive a person or people "SPIRTUALLY" but leave them the curse/pain for generations to come?

Is god forgivness only after death or before?


As for what paul wrote,when you say he dont mean it is not physical death,can you post the relevant verses thanks..

As for Romans 6:23 i ahve read the chapter and the wages of sin is death do mena physical death unless you are saying that after you die there is still another death..

Maybe for you your answer is simple but for an outsider looking in with a different perspective your answer is very disconcerting and disconcerted.
Like i said my inital question is simple..why would god forgive but still curse.

[4-Christ-Alone]

i havnt forgot to answer, i will whithin the next cuple of days, please bare with me.

God bless

[4-Christ-Alone]

Sin's curse came upon the human race because Adam and Eve disobeyed God's command in the Garden of Eden not to eat from the tree - "for when you eat of it you will surely die" (Genesis 2:16-17). The immediate consequence of their sin was that they died spiritually, and their bodies began the dying process which eventually resulted in physical death. Their sin (and the resulting death) has been passed from Adam and Eve to each individual in every generation to this day (Romans 3:23).

The only remedy for sin is the free gift of eternal life through our Lord Jesus Christ. "God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish (or die spiritually) but have eternal life" (John 3:16; see also John 5:24). At the moment a sinner believes that Jesus Christ died for his sin, that person is born again and becomes a new person in Him (John 3:3). The old sinful nature remains, but by His power within a believer is able to live for Him. (This is explained in Romans 8.)

All Christians look forward to the day when we will be in the Savior's presence, and only then will the stain and curse of sin no longer affect us. "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away" (Revelation 21:1-4).

God bless

[Umar001]

Peace be upon those who follow guidance,

It seems in the confusion of this thread some parts have been overlooked, I will repost my question,

From the above quote it seems to me your saying that, the effect of sin, things like people dying and women giving birth in pain are only happening because the person that died had sinned and the woman who gives birth in pain has sinned.

But if they had not sinned they wouldnt die or give birth in pain.

Is this a right understanding of your view point?

Also Dusk I believe your on holiday/pilgrimage, I hope you get this when you come back,

so it seems that "pains in childbearing" are not a matter of personal sin. you may be "sinless" and still it will hurt (as long as you are alive)

So whether a person has sinned or not they still recieve the punishment of a sinner?

Also to alot of people who seem to use as evidence the fact that Adam and Eve tried to hide from G-d as evidence of the death of their spirit, do you mean to say that if someone's spirit is dead they wear clothes? So Jesus whom was G-d, should have been walking around naked and not hiding?

[4-Christ-Alone]

From the above quote it seems to me your saying that, the effect of sin, things like people dying and women giving birth in pain are only happening because the person that died had sinned and the woman who gives birth in pain has sinned.

But if they had not sinned they wouldnt die or give birth in pain.

Is this a right understanding of your view point?

Yes, im saying we inherited the same sinful nature of Adam and Eve, and if they had not sinned they would have not brought death or birth pain into the world.

But i wud like to say now i will be leaving this forum until i have studied the bible fully, i dont feel i have the right to defend Gods word until i study it properly. If im going to do something i want to do it right, and i want to answer every single question that is possible to be answered about God.

So it was nice to speak to yous and im sure i will be back.

May you experience Jesus as the Christ

God bless

Sean

[Umar001]

Yes, im saying we inherited the same sinful nature of Adam and Eve, and if they had not sinned they would have not brought death or birth pain into the world.

But i wud like to say now i will be leaving this forum until i have studied the bible fully, i dont feel i have the right to defend Gods word until i study it properly. If im going to do something i want to do it right, and i want to answer every single question that is possible to be answered about God.

So it was nice to speak to yous and im sure i will be back.

May you experience Jesus as the Christ

God bless

Sean

Hey bro well take care and pm me anytime you wish, no problem, I admire your descion and I hope you learn and come and teach us.

I hope you also experiences Jesus as the Christ, and Muhammad as G-ds servant and messenger.

May G-d bless and guide me and you

Nice having met ya Sean take care bro,

Peace

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

Sean nice talking to you too..

Inshallah when you learn more of the bible more and more of its corruption will be mor apparent to you.

Inshallah...

As again,i would ask any chrisitan here...

Do you believe in a god that say he forgives but still punishes??

[Phil12123]

As again,i would ask any chrisitan here...

Do you believe in a god that say he forgives but still punishes??

You are a broken record. You've heard your question answered again and again and refuse to accept the answers. You are like the person in so many of the Proverbs:

Proverbs 12:
15. The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but he who heeds counsel is wise.

You are not the one who heeds counsel.

Proverbs 15:
32. He who disdains instruction despises his own soul, but he who heeds reproof gets understanding.

And you do not heed reproof. So I leave you to your folly.

Peace

[Zulkiflim]

You are a broken record. You've heard your question answered again and again and refuse to accept the answers. You are like the person in so many of the Proverbs:

Proverbs 12:
15. The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but he who heeds counsel is wise.

You are not the one who heeds counsel.

Proverbs 15:
32. He who disdains instruction despises his own soul, but he who heeds reproof gets understanding.

And you do not heed reproof. So I leave you to your folly.

Peace

Salaam,

I am not broken record..
I ask for the question has not been answered,as sean has shown he want to learn more so that he cna answer better when faced with the same question again and again..

So far many chrisitan here try to prove that jesus supposed death forgave sin but not the curse of original sin.
They say it is a spirtiual forgiveness but when i counter with what the bible itself say they repeat agian it is just spritual forgiveness.

So if you are bale to tell me,wheat you are forgiven for by jesus death do tell me,is it spiritual or physical and spiritual?

[albee]

Salaam,

Sean nice talking to you too..

Inshallah when you learn more of the bible more and more of its corruption will be mor apparent to you.

Inshallah...

As again,i would ask any chrisitan here...

Do you believe in a god that say he forgives but still punishes??

Greetings

It is written:
"For this they (scoffers)willfully forget:that by the word of God the heavens were of old,and the earth standing out of water and in the water, that the world [I]that[I] then existed perished, being flooded with water."

It is written also:

"The Lord .........is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance"

Albee

[Zulkiflim]

Greetings

It is written:
"For this they (scoffers)willfully forget:that by the word of God the heavens were of old,and the earth standing out of water and in the water, that the world [I]that[I] then existed perished, being flooded with water."

It is written also:

"The Lord .........is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance"

Albee

Salaam,

alhamdulilah now tell me,from which apostle does that come from?

gospel according to _______(pls put name in the blanks)

thanks for us we revere Prophet jesus as and never would dare mock him nor what he would say.

"the pen of scribes would speak the lie"

[albee]

Salaam,

alhamdulilah now tell me,from which apostle does that come from?

gospel according to _______(pls put name in the blanks)

thanks for us we revere Prophet jesus as and never would dare mock him nor what he would say.

"the pen of scribes would speak the lie"

greetings,

Both verses I quoted were written by the apostle of Jesus Christ, Peter, in his 2nd letter. He was specifically writing about the last days leading up to thr return of Jesus.
The point I was making was that Peter, who was one of the original 12 disciples of Jesus, certainly beleived in a God who both punishes the unrepentant,unbeleiving sinner but forgives the penitent sinner.
This is made clear by these 2 verses, for Peter is reminding his readers that God once flooded the world, but would prefer men to come to beleif in Him and repent before this world is destroyed the 2nd time.

Albee

[albee]

Salaam,

alhamdulilah now tell me,from which apostle does that come from?

gospel according to _______(pls put name in the blanks)

thanks for us we revere Prophet jesus as and never would dare mock him nor what he would say.

"the pen of scribes would speak the lie"

greetings,

Both verses I quoted were written by the apostle of Jesus Christ, Peter, in his 2nd letter. He was specifically writing about the last days leading up to thr return of Jesus.
The point I was making was that Peter, who was one of the original 12 disciples of Jesus, certainly beleived in a God who both punishes the unrepentant,unbeleiving sinner but forgives the penitent sinner.
This is made clear by these 2 verses, for Peter is reminding his readers that God once flooded the world, but would prefer men to come to beleif in Him and repent before this world is destroyed the 2nd time.

Albee

[ZOREENA]

What had the serpent to do with it.....anything??? And some Catholics have a Christining whic is a sacrament to absolve oringinal sing from the baby...I think thatz rite!! Altho if original sin was based on Jesus dying for the sins and that...then why he do it for if the kids wer still gona be born into sin!!

[4-Christ-Alone]

hi guys, just back to see what your views on this is....

I believe God punishes evil, and i believe a good judge does not let evil go unpunished, as most of you know.

Now you guys say that allah is all merciful, and i assume yous say he is all rightous, now doesnt unpunished evil show a lack of rightousness? it does to me, and im sure it does to you.

Like the point i have made before, if a man brakes the law and is willing to repent of his evil deeds, should the mans evil crimes be unpunished? even us sinners punish sin wether they are repentant or not, so shouldnt an all rightous God even more punish evil?

Then u say again but allah is also merciful, but i say that allah lacks rightousness in this case, and i say Jesus Christ shows a rightous God punishing sin for us, a rightous and just God who loves us enough to give us his everything. Jesus was not forced to the cross, he choose it because he though we were wirht dying for. Look closer guys.

God bless

[Zulkiflim]

greetings,

Both verses I quoted were written by the apostle of Jesus Christ, Peter, in his 2nd letter. He was specifically writing about the last days leading up to thr return of Jesus.
The point I was making was that Peter, who was one of the original 12 disciples of Jesus, certainly beleived in a God who both punishes the unrepentant,unbeleiving sinner but forgives the penitent sinner.
This is made clear by these 2 verses, for Peter is reminding his readers that God once flooded the world, but would prefer men to come to beleif in Him and repent before this world is destroyed the 2nd time.

Albee

Salaam,

May i ask when was the world destroyed the first time?
are you referring tot he great flood in the time of Noah?

you do know that the flood only covered a portion of the world and not the entire world.

a question,do you beleive in all paul has to say?
even when he say do not belive him?

[Zulkiflim]

hi guys, just back to see what your views on this is....

I believe God punishes evil, and i believe a good judge does not let evil go unpunished, as most of you know.

Now you guys say that allah is all merciful, and i assume yous say he is all rightous, now doesnt unpunished evil show a lack of rightousness? it does to me, and im sure it does to you.

Like the point i have made before, if a man brakes the law and is willing to repent of his evil deeds, should the mans evil crimes be unpunished? even us sinners punish sin wether they are repentant or not, so shouldnt an all rightous God even more punish evil?

Then u say again but allah is also merciful, but i say that allah lacks rightousness in this case, and i say Jesus Christ shows a rightous God punishing sin for us, a rightous and just God who loves us enough to give us his everything. Jesus was not forced to the cross, he choose it because he though we were wirht dying for. Look closer guys.

God bless

Salaam,

agian you try to restrict allah but you only restric yourself.
allah is Allah do not try to disasssemble him.

you split the world in good and evil,but is it not true that Allah created the angels and evil ones?


You do not understand but this world is but a test not only for mankind but all of creation.
even the closest of servant the angles are tested of their faith.


you ,me,jinns,satan are all under observation.our choices will refer us to heaven or hell.


the final judgement is on the day of dread ,the day when we ill all be judged by the JUST ONE.On that day we will face the reckoning of our actions and inaction,our thought and our deeds.

so pls do not see what you wish to see,see what is already there.
as for not punishing the evil one,i assume you know of shariah laws in islam?
those are divine laws ,a punishment to offset the punishement of the after days.
the punishment is set but then agian allah test us whether we will follow the laws set or will we follow our hearts.

For you wish top judge by on action and you say then that god is righteous.
But may i ask you this.let us talk about a doctor who murdered one man but saved 1000.should he punished for that one criminal act to suffer for his entirety?

thus the judgement is at the end when we cant do anything either to repent or to strike,on that day we are powerless and only our action will be judged.

so leave be,do not restrict allah divine judgemtn by what you perceive.Leave the judgement to the ONE whom is the MOST JUST and MOST MERCIFUL.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Isnt that where baptism comes in? because of this belief in original sin?

[4-Christ-Alone]

sorry but at no point in your reply did u see anything in relation to what i wrote.

i will ask simply.

1) Do u agree that unpunished evil lacks rightousness? ( let me guess, no? ) thats what i thought because your God doesnt punish evil on repentience. So why would you admit to this truth? admitting to this is showing allah lacking rightousness! so u dont need to answer this i know your answer.

2) Do you know muslims in iran who have been won by Christ and his love. are being killed by muslims, are these muslims following your fatih? if they are boy your faith is merciful.

3) Have you ever lied? have you ever stolen anything? im guessing, have u ever look at a woman in lust? If you have any of these things then u have broken just 3 of Gods laws, we have all fallen short of Gods standards! Does God want a bunch of liers and theifs in heaven? No, we will be found guilty for our sin on the day of judgement, a rightous just would find ever man guilty of sin, but a loving Judge pays our debt for us, in Jesus Christ we have freedom, not that is love, and i dont need CAPTIAL LETTERS TO SAY THAT JESUS IS ALIVE AND GOD IS RIGHTOUS AND MERCIFUL.

peace my good friend.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

sorry but at no point in your reply did u see anything in relation to what i wrote.

i will ask simply.

1) Do u agree that unpunished evil lacks rightousness? ( let me guess, no? ) thats what i thought because your God doesnt punish evil on repentience. So why would you admit to this truth? admitting to this is showing allah lacking rightousness! so u dont need to answer this i know your answer.

2) Do you know muslims in iran who have been won by Christ and his love. are being killed by muslims, are these muslims following your fatih? if they are boy your faith is merciful.

3) Have you ever lied? have you ever stolen anything? im guessing, have u ever look at a woman in lust? If you have any of these things then u have broken just 3 of Gods laws, we have all fallen short of Gods standards! Does God want a bunch of liers and theifs in heaven? No, we will be found guilty for our sin on the day of judgement, a rightous just would find ever man guilty of sin, but a loving Judge pays our debt for us, in Jesus Christ we have freedom, not that is love, and i dont need CAPTIAL LETTERS TO SAY THAT JESUS IS ALIVE AND GOD IS RIGHTOUS AND MERCIFUL.

peace my good friend.

How is God merciful if he does not forgive one who repents? If they repent with true heart.. why shouldnt they be forgiven? God is not unmerciful. If a person does something wrong, repents but does it again and so forth, they will not be forgiven. For them is a place in the hell fire. For those have won Christ and his love( i guess u mean conversion), it doesnt allow Muslims to kill them unless they betray the people and the country they live in. God gave us a mind to decide our own path. Each action they take will be decided accordingly. If u dont need capital letters then done use it. Everyone will be judged according to their deeds. WHo are u to judge God and the actions of the people? No one. It will be upto God to decide whether that person is forgiven or not. Allah is most merciful and is surely better than creation.

[4-Christ-Alone]

God forgives those who repent, but he still needs to punish the evil we have done because he is rightous, and it goes against his nature to leave evil unpunished, but the love he had he setn Jesus.

And when did u judge anyone? who are u to accuse me of this? lol cmon!

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

And when did u judge anyone? who are u to accuse me of this? lol cmon!

Lol ok ok...:) i said that to tease u :p o0o u smart arent u ahah.

God forgives those who repent, but he still needs to punish the evil we have done because he is rightous, and it goes against his nature to leave evil unpunished, but the love he had he setn Jesus.

Of course God punishes, but its up to God to decide if they r deserving of it. Who would know better? Honestly if u r so interested in wanting to know, I suggest u go read the Quran/Sunnah urself. Whats a better source than that? :)

[ZOREENA]

hi guys, just back to see what your views on this is....

I believe God punishes evil, and i believe a good judge does not let evil go unpunished, as most of you know.

Now you guys say that allah is all merciful, and i assume yous say he is all rightous, now doesnt unpunished evil show a lack of rightousness? it does to me, and im sure it does to you.

Like the point i have made before, if a man brakes the law and is willing to repent of his evil deeds, should the mans evil crimes be unpunished? even us sinners punish sin wether they are repentant or not, so shouldnt an all rightous God even more punish evil?

Then u say again but allah is also merciful, but i say that allah lacks rightousness in this case, and i say Jesus Christ shows a rightous God punishing sin for us, a rightous and just God who loves us enough to give us his everything. Jesus was not forced to the cross, he choose it because he though we were wirht dying for. Look closer guys.

God bless

I WONDER WHY JESUS FELT THE NEED TO DIE FOR THE PEOPLEZ SINZ?I DONT SEE THAT AS RIGHTEOUS NOR JUST...WHY SHOULD HE HAVE HAD TO?? U SAY HE CHOSE TO...NOT ACCORDING TO TANYTHING IV SEEN...HE WAS TRAILED TO IT IE THE CROSS!! WELL WHAT EXACTLI DID IT DO...? AND DID HE SAY WHY HAVE U FORSAKEN ME ON THE CROSS? WHAT FOR? AND IF THEY ARE A TRINITY DID THE HOLY SPIRIT AND GOD DIE ON THE CROSS TOO?

[ZOREENA]

Isnt that where baptism comes in? because of this belief in original sin?

Yeah itz where the baby is absolved from original sin!!

[ZOREENA]

Where do u think these punishments or hardships will take place??? on Earth as it were or in heaven/hell??? Coz we are sent trialz on earth here....sumtimez thingz happen for a reason or God works in mysterious ways..for example if we dont pray we most ceratintly will not have as peaceful and serene life as a daily prayer etc...we can almost incurr punishments here on earth...we dont know what Allah swt does or when or what....he makez the earth go round..so he can punish or try or reward us whatever way he likez!! As a catholic....before.....we were ALL lead to believe..that if we go to confession and are sins arent too bad....wed all be goin to heaven anyway!! In Islam...u know u gotta work for it!!! Millionz of Catholics think ooo i havent killed no one...ner do i kneel down n worship my God but im still goin to heaven...coz thatz just how this airy fairy thing works!! I 'KNEW' I was goin to heaven and never feared hell as a Catholic...now I know I will be punished severely if I dont do what I have to....EVERY SINGLE ONE OF MY ACTIONZ WILL BE NOTED....but as a Catholic...we didnt know what were meant to do...how u were supposed to do things like pray...wash..eat...speak....think....learn...socia lise...nothing...just wee stories....ISLAM IS RIGHTEOUS AND OF COURSE JUST!! Hence there to be a Day of Judgement!!

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Yeah itz where the baby is absolved from original sin!!

So that kinda refutes anyone sayin a baby is not sinned when he's born. If the baby doesnt get baptized they end up thinking theres like no hope for the kid.

[ZOREENA]

Well in the Catholic tradition the baby is Baptized to cleanze it from original sin!! To welcome the baby into the community....but like I dont think ppl think o theres no hope for that kid if he aint baptized theyd prob just think that itz not a Catholic!!

[4-Christ-Alone]

Of course God punishes, but its up to God to decide if they r deserving of it. Who would know better? Honestly if u r so interested in wanting to know, I suggest u go read the Quran/Sunnah urself. Whats a better source than that?

We could go round in circles, i have made clear unpunished sin shows lack of rightousness, and we all deserve to be punished because we have all sinned against God. So lets conclude that you believe your God lets evil go unpunished and mine punishs evil, and i dont need to open the koran because i have experienced Jesus Christ as my saviour and in many different supernatural ways in my life, to me its not a question of whos right, i dont wonder what if im wrong because i know Jesus is alive just as much as i know my mother is alive. So that means either i am a liar, ive lost my marbles, or Jesus Christ is alive, i know which one.

I WONDER WHY JESUS FELT THE NEED TO DIE FOR THE PEOPLEZ SINZ?I DONT SEE THAT AS RIGHTEOUS NOR JUST...WHY SHOULD HE HAVE HAD TO?? U SAY HE CHOSE TO...NOT ACCORDING TO TANYTHING IV SEEN...HE WAS TRAILED TO IT IE THE CROSS!! WELL WHAT EXACTLI DID IT DO...? AND DID HE SAY WHY HAVE U FORSAKEN ME ON THE CROSS? WHAT FOR? AND IF THEY ARE A TRINITY DID THE HOLY SPIRIT AND GOD DIE ON THE CROSS TOO?

Jesus felt the need to die for us out of Love, not out of anything else, Jesus could have said at any moment, father carry me away, he said father not my will be done but mine, he choose to do his fathers will because he love us and though we were worth dying for. Remember Jesus was God in the form of a man, and for him not to want to die for us, wud not make him and his father "one" as he says, because if God the fathers wants to save us, then Jesus also does and its was God the father who sent Jesus.

You Ask why Jesus said "Father why have you forsaken me?" because for the fisrt time in his life he was carrying sin, he had every single sin on his soul and it was a black black place he was in, he had to know what it felt like to rape a woman, he had to feel the pleasure of sticking a knife in someone, he was carrying yours and my sin, because he loved us enough. Now i try not to get carried away on here but i get mad sometimes because he did this for you, and he still loves you all 2day, and you wont choose to see it, u are so caught in your islam world that u are blinded to the truth, and to be honest, i care about your salvation, but not as much as him, the reason im here is not to see whos right, but because i know how precious you all are to Jesus, i just want to see it, to see it for real, to know that Jesus loves you and died for you, God gave his only son for you.

Let me tell you a story, a muslim woman was walking in her garden and she smelled a beutiful smell, she managed to get her hands on a bible, and then gave her life to Jesus, that smell was the aroma of Christ, she put her life at risk for Jesus Christ, this is not a game, he is real, and he is holy, and he is coming as the king of kings very soon, please, when u see him riding on the clouds, dont be looking with fear thinking what have i done? i want you to look up with so much joy that your lord has come for you as he promised, but u have to let him in as your lord, and i promise if any of you do, u will life the rest of your days here, trying to convince every muslim you meet, that they have been decieved, see it for what it is.

God bless my friends.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

We could go round in circles, i have made clear unpunished sin shows lack of rightousness, and we all deserve to be punished because we have all sinned against God. So lets conclude that you believe your God lets evil go unpunished and mine punishs evil, and i dont need to open the koran because i have experienced Jesus Christ as my saviour and in many different supernatural ways in my life, to me its not a question of whos right, i dont wonder what if im wrong because i know Jesus is alive just as much as i know my mother is alive. So that means either i am a liar, ive lost my marbles, or Jesus Christ is alive, i know which one.

If u dont need to open the Quran then dont assume things and say things about any of it without the correct knowledge. I know Islam is the one true religion(in my eyes) but that doesnt stop me from opening the Bible. I like to keep an open mind and learn things about the other religion so i dont get anything wrong. A person who wants to learn does not reject knowledge and opportunities that comes to them. Islam requires us to gain knowledge and learn bout other religions so u can have an intellectual dialogue or agreement and come to a conclusion.

Peace

[4-Christ-Alone]

excuse me, there u go accusing me again, your speaking as if i dont have an open mind, you dont know me, i have spent the last few months learning about islam, and if u call people on here your frends then thats were im getting most of my knowlenge on islam. Please correct me if i have said anything to misunderstand your faith and i will appoligise, but untill then please dont say things like this. I know the basis of your religion but i dont intednt to read to koran so i know it verse by verse.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

excuse me, there u go accusing me again, your speaking as if i dont have an open mind, you dont know me, i have spent the last few months learning about islam, and if u call people on here your frends then thats were im getting most of my knowlenge on islam. Please correct me if i have said anything to misunderstand your faith and i will appoligise, but untill then please dont say things like this. I know the basis of your religion but i dont intednt to read to koran so i know it verse by verse.

i was talking in general, did i say ur name? no..
and u saying lets conclude "our" God doesnt let evil go unpunsihed..dont thnik like that cuz its wrong.
Im not here to gain enemies. some of the things i read from people i have to point cuz some of it is false.
Peace

[4-Christ-Alone]

im sorry but some evil goes unpunished in islam. is that not true? have u ever broken at least 1 of Gods laws? yes im sure u believe every man sins, so do u think your evil will go unpunished? im sure u do or esle you and alot of muslims are in trouble.

you see my God is so rightous he has to punish the smallest fib, its is in our nature to sin, and it is in Gods nature to punish sin, whether there is repentence or not. i thank God that he took my punishment of himself.

I am not here to make enemies either friend, i just want people to see the truth.

God bless

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

im sorry but some evil goes unpunished in islam. is that not true?

Nope, wrong, not true.thats why i say dont assume things. Are u Muslim? did u die and then come back to be able to know that?

yes im sure u believe every man sins, so do u think your evil will go unpunished? im sure u do or esle you and alot of muslims are in trouble.

Wrong, its between me and God. I will be judged accordingly, thats why its called "Judgement Day"

you see my God is so righteous he has to punish the smallest fib, its is in our nature to sin, and it is in Gods nature to punish sin, whether there is repentence or not

So why does ur God need to punsih u, if Jesus died for the sins of man?

Not sparing some1's life huh even if they repent? Doesnt sound like righteousness.
Say if i believed Jesus was God(if). I sinned and repented and did everything i was supposed too, im still gunna pay for it? How is that God loving? If someone did something wrong to u but theyregreted and asked for ur forgiveness wouldnt u forgive that person? Of course who wouldnt, its in human nature. People do a lot of wrongs to me and my family, yet when they apologize we forgive them, and even after they do it repeatedly. God loves those who r just and forgives others. i I dont think anyone has a bigger heart than God. Humans r nuthing compared to God, and God has a bigger heart than all, since u know he did create mankind with feelings and the ability to be righteous. What the person does wrong is between them and God. we cannot judge them. We can most definitely tell them of their wrongs, but its up to them to take heed of the advice. On the day of judgement, no1 is accountable for anothers actions, ur only accountable for ur own.

To be honest with u i dont want enemies either, not my intention.
Hope we can keep it clean
Peace:)

[Zulkiflim]

im sorry but some evil goes unpunished in islam. is that not true? have u ever broken at least 1 of Gods laws? yes im sure u believe every man sins, so do u think your evil will go unpunished? im sure u do or esle you and alot of muslims are in trouble.

you see my God is so rightous he has to punish the smallest fib, its is in our nature to sin, and it is in Gods nature to punish sin, whether there is repentence or not. i thank God that he took my punishment of himself.

I am not here to make enemies either friend, i just want people to see the truth.

God bless

Salaam,

First off,we muslim KNOW we are accountable for our actions..But you dont

As you say,your god is soo righteous that he must punish all sin even the smallest fib..
So in that point what ever you do,wheter you lie or kill or rape little boys or girls,god punish himself for your actions.

So thus you are in your own mind FREE to do what ever ill you wnat for you beleive that your sin is already unto god...right..

So in such light we muslim we know whetehr we do wrong or right in the end we will be judged by ONE whom is the MOST JUST and MOST MERCIFUL.
Whereas you say that god has already punished himself for your sin.

Can you tell me if that is the case,what can you not DO??

You mock yourself and know it not.

As the quran say...Some people said they beleive their palce in heaven is assured,Allah replied SHOW YOUR PROOF.....and in another challenge..SEEK YE DEATH..but they wont..

[4-Christ-Alone]

So thus you are in your own mind FREE to do what ever ill you wnat for you beleive that your sin is already unto god...right..

I would like to think your bright enought to understand, that God knows the heart of every man, and repentance starts in the heart. I could go on sinning but think to myself its ok i wont be punished. I would be a fool. It doesnt work like that, its works in accepting Jesus as your lord and saviour, and turning from all you know is wrong. Im sure u understand this clearly. So you ask what can we not DO? what do u think we cant do? think about it its not hard. Jesus didnt die so we would do what we want, but so we could be forgiven for the things we have allready done and fulfill the law of the OT. And he gave us 2 new commandments, love your God with you heart mind bosy and soul, and love you neighbour as yourself. And doing this, obeying Gods laws will follow.

Not sparing some1's life huh even if they repent? Doesnt sound like righteousness.
Say if i believed Jesus was God(if). I sinned and repented and did everything i was supposed too, im still gunna pay for it? How is that God loving? If someone did something wrong to u but theyregreted and asked for ur forgiveness wouldnt u forgive that person? Of course who wouldnt, its in human nature. People do a lot of wrongs to me and my family, yet when they apologize we forgive them, and even after they do it repeatedly. God loves those who r just and forgives others. i I dont think anyone has a bigger heart than God. Humans r nuthing compared to God, and God has a bigger heart than all, since u know he did create mankind with feelings and the ability to be righteous. What the person does wrong is between them and God. we cannot judge them. We can most definitely tell them of their wrongs, but its up to them to take heed of the advice. On the day of judgement, no1 is accountable for anothers actions, ur only accountable for ur own.

Your asking if we repent does God still punish us? no of course not, because out of love he gave his only son to pay our punishment. So if we accept Jesus our sins are forgiven. Dont u understand what i have said before? God is rightous and has to punish evil, God is loving and didnt want tp punish us, So God being a rightous and JUST God, and at the same time a loving God, he gave the ultimate sacrafice in Jesus. And throught Jesus out evil can be forgiven because God has already punished our sin on himslef out of love.

Now i dont know what human nature you live in but its not in human nature to forgive, it might be easy to forgve someone offending you or something small? But if someone murdered you mother or father would it be in the average human nature to forgive the murderer? no it wouldnt. So forgivness in Gods scale is not in our nature. Recently a christian mother lost her son to a stabbing, the news reporter ask his mother, "can u ever forgive the man who done this to your son"? she took a moment and replied yes i forgive him. She showed this man the same forgivness that God showed her, but she still wanted him to be punished for what he did. Because it would be morally wrong to let this man off with this evil crime. So human nature doesnt teach us how to forgive even the worst crimes, but God through Jesus Christ does.

You can say God is this and that and sin is between them and God. But its doesnt excuse the fact that unpunished evil is lack of rightousness. So u say i assume about your faith, are u assuming your evil will go unpunished or punished? dangerous thing to assume.

God bless

[4-Christ-Alone]

let me explain something.

God is rightous

God punishs evil

God is loving

To Not punish evil would not show him as a rightous God

God cant go against his rightous, JUST, and HOLY nature

God has to send the perfect sacrafice for our sin.

Olny a perfect sacrafice can be sufficient to take away the sins on the world.

God gave his only beggoten son, so that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

This shows God, as RIGHTOUS, JUST, FAIR, HOLY, KIND,and most of all LOVING, this is God, and anything lacking here would be something short of the concept of God.

God bless

[Zulkiflim]

I would like to think your bright enought to understand, that God knows the heart of every man, and repentance starts in the heart. I could go on sinning but think to myself its ok i wont be punished. I would be a fool. It doesnt work like that, its works in accepting Jesus as your lord and saviour, and turning from all you know is wrong. Im sure u understand this clearly. So you ask what can we not DO? what do u think we cant do? think about it its not hard. Jesus didnt die so we would do what we want, but so we could be forgiven for the things we have allready done and fulfill the law of the OT. And he gave us 2 new commandments, love your God with you heart mind bosy and soul, and love you neighbour as yourself. And doing this, obeying Gods laws will follow.

Salaam,

As i have said in your previous article you said,God punish himself for your sin.And then you say no it dont work that way,god only punishes himself if you are and repentace start in the heart..


And thus we come to the crux of the problem..

you seem sincere and confident but you do not know..

You are not sure if god trully forgives you your sin.
As you say god know the heart of man,,and you take it upon yourself to say that you are forgiven...that your piety is enough that god is satisfied.

So all in all every time some one rebut you and you come in with a different explantion it just mena one thing..

IT IS YOUR WISH...not what is...
it is just your delusion..

[Zulkiflim]

let me explain something.

God is rightous

God punishs evil

God is loving

To Not punish evil would not show him as a rightous God

God cant go against his rightous, JUST, and HOLY nature

God has to send the perfect sacrafice for our sin.

Olny a perfect sacrafice can be sufficient to take away the sins on the world.

God gave his only beggoten son, so that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

This shows God, as RIGHTOUS, JUST, FAIR, HOLY, KIND,and most of all LOVING, this is God, and anything lacking here would be something short of the concept of God.

God bless

Salaam,

NOw i wish to ask you one question and i hope you can asnwer straight forward..

If you make a mistake or a sin,do you get punished immediately?


also can you tell me,in your mind did god make satan or is satan a nemesis to god?

And as you say,evilis not in god nature,so are you saying another power create evil?

[4-Christ-Alone]

Salaam,

As i have said in your previous article you said,God punish himself for your sin.And then you say no it dont work that way,god only punishes himself if you are and repentace start in the heart..


And thus we come to the crux of the problem..

you seem sincere and confident but you do not know..

You are not sure if god trully forgives you your sin.
As you say god know the heart of man,,and you take it upon yourself to say that you are forgiven...that your piety is enough that god is satisfied.

So all in all every time some one rebut you and you come in with a different explantion it just mena one thing..

IT IS YOUR WISH...not what is...
it is just your delusion..

You are unreal lol, its easy to undestand, God went to the cross for every single sin, he did for all sin wether we choose to accept it or not he did. I never said God only punishs himself on repentence so dont do that please, God punished himself for all sin, so that "when" / "if" we repented we would excape that punishment. So God has paid everyones debt of sin, whether we choose to accept this or not is at our own risk. and that willl be the end of this, i have made it clear, and if u dont understand its your unwillingness to not want to. i could explain this to my 3 year old nephew!

If you make a mistake or a sin,do you get punished immediately?


also can you tell me,in your mind did god make satan or is satan a nemesis to god?

And as you say,evilis not in god nature,so are you saying another power create evil?

No, we arnt immedietly punished when sinning, because God has paid it, how many times do u have to hear this, whether u believe it or not u can understand it.

And second, i believe God made satan as part of his creation. And evil is not in Gods nature. let me explain

Satan does not define evil. he chose it.

let me tell you what sin is, sin is not something that is created like an apple or banana, its not a thing. Coldness is not a thing it is the lack of heat. Darkness is not a thing it is the absence of light. in the same way sin is not a thing it is the lack of good or better lack of God.

When God made his creation, he didnt want robots, so he gave us an option other than him, so we had the choice to accept or reject him, and the obtion of rejecting him brings evil. so when u ask did another power create evil. your asking the wrong question, evil has never been created, it has been chosen.

God bless

[Zulkiflim]

You are unreal lol, its easy to undestand, God went to the cross for every single sin, he did for all sin wether we choose to accept it or not he did. I never said God only punishs himself on repentence so dont do that please, God punished himself for all sin, so that "when" / "if" we repented we would excape that punishment. So God has paid everyones debt of sin, whether we choose to accept this or not is at our own risk. and that willl be the end of this, i have made it clear, and if u dont understand its your unwillingness to not want to. i could explain this to my 3 year old nephew!



No, we arnt immedietly punished when sinning, because God has paid it, how many times do u have to hear this, whether u believe it or not u can understand it.

And second, i believe God made satan as part of his creation. And evil is not in Gods nature. let me explain

Satan does not define evil. he chose it.

let me tell you what sin is, sin is not something that is created like an apple or banana, its not a thing. Coldness is not a thing it is the lack of heat. Darkness is not a thing it is the absence of light. in the same way sin is not a thing it is the lack of good or better lack of God.

When God made his creation, he didnt want robots, so he gave us an option other than him, so we had the choice to accept or reject him, and the obtion of rejecting him brings evil. so when u ask did another power create evil. your asking the wrong question, evil has never been created, it has been chosen.

God bless

Salaam,

Agian i say you are still not sure.

In one post you say god forgives those whom are really sincre and what not and now you say that god forgives all sin...and now you even say god forgiven all sin ven for those who do not recognize jesus as god.

Trully it is mystical how you talk...
To refresh your memory this is what you said.


[PIE]I would like to think your bright enought to understand, that God knows the heart of every man, and repentance starts in the heart. I could go on sinning but think to myself its ok i wont be punished. I would be a fool. It doesnt work like that, its works in accepting Jesus as your lord and saviour, and turning from all you know is wrong. Im sure u understand this clearly. So you ask what can we not DO? what do u think we cant do? think about it its not hard. Jesus didnt die so we would do what we want, but so we could be forgiven for the things we have allready done and fulfill the law of the OT. And he gave us 2 new commandments, love your God with you heart mind bosy and soul, and love you neighbour as yourself. And doing this, obeying Gods laws will follow.[/PIE]

And i do agree you can explain this to your 3 year old nephew ,casue babies are gullible to beleive everything..LOL

So cna you just give me a straight answer..

Do you think you are forgiven?
Or do you think you need to repent?
Or do you think that any sins you do or will do is already forgiven?
And do you need to believe in jesus as god to to be forgiven?
Do you even need a confrimation from god that you are forgiven or do you just take it for granted?
Do you then need to ask god for forgiveness if you think that god has already forgiven you?


As for explanation of evil and heat and what not it is just mystyfying..LOLOL

I ask you,a simple question.Did god create satan..

And you said yes..

And then you say Satan chose evil,not define it,so i ask you who then defined evil?
Did evil exist before god in your mind?

Did Satan chose to serve evil rahter than god?

In the case of light and dark it is simple,Same for heat and cold.
both are quatative,easily measured with light sensors and temperature.

But both are defined by the other,how can we have hot if we do not define cold?
How cna you have love but not know hate?
How can you have anger if you do not kow mercy?

So i ask you again,since you say your god loves,who defined hate?
I ask you,if your god is just,who defined UNJUST and UNRIGHTEOUS?

But one question to you will answer all that question.

HOW MANY GOD or CREATORS are there in your mind?

One for Good ,,one for evil

One for heat one for cold
One for light one for darkness?

[ZOREENA]

If We Wernt To Be Punished And Allah Swt Was Not Righteous..then We Would All Do As We Pleaze!! But Instead Most Muslimz Mould Their Life...around Their Trying And Desire To Please God And Not Sin!! And Most Truly Repent..no One Knowz If Itz Good Enough But Die Trying!! Being A Muslim Is A Complete Way Of Life..our Instruction Manual..how We Should Operate! I Dont See This In Chritiantiy!! And Whether God Is Righteous Isnt Mostly My Concern Rite Now...itz Knowing The Truth Which U Should Try And Seek!!inshalllah

[4-Christ-Alone]

zulk, my dear word where do they make people like you? you are either choosing not to undrstand or u are genuinly lacking something up there.

I have explained everything cleary, and i will not carry on this post. as for the question about evil exsisting before God, how can that be if God has allways exsisted, its imposssible for something to exsist before it? LOL.

And i know i am forgiven, i know Jesus Christ is the risen lord not "believe" but know as fact. What can you say to that lol ? oohhhh prove it? and i say prove it to yourself. he says call upon the name of the lord and you shall be saved. intellectual agruments will never get anyone anywhere, my words can never save you, only u can be brought out of your blind worlds by Gods grace. Anf like i said before, u will see Jesus Christ coming on the clouds in all his glory, u will bow and confess he is lord, u will be deeply sorry for your words about him, and ungloryfying him, and i hope it wont be too late when u call upon his name.

Nice speaking, who knows when i will be back. Only God can save u now.

Bye

[Zulkiflim]

zulk, my dear word where do they make people like you? you are either choosing not to undrstand or u are genuinly lacking something up there.

I have explained everything cleary, and i will not carry on this post. as for the question about evil exsisting before God, how can that be if God has allways exsisted, its imposssible for something to exsist before it? LOL.

And i know i am forgiven, i know Jesus Christ is the risen lord not "believe" but know as fact. What can you say to that lol ? oohhhh prove it? and i say prove it to yourself. he says call upon the name of the lord and you shall be saved. intellectual agruments will never get anyone anywhere, my words can never save you, only u can be brought out of your blind worlds by Gods grace. Anf like i said before, u will see Jesus Christ coming on the clouds in all his glory, u will bow and confess he is lord, u will be deeply sorry for your words about him, and ungloryfying him, and i hope it wont be too late when u call upon his name.

Nice speaking, who knows when i will be back. Only God can save u now.

Bye

Salaam,

It is also nice deabting with you,but as always i never get the answer that makes sense.They always leave in a huff.
Go figure..

As for your very short reply to my question,which was a rebuttal to your asseriton that satan was created by god but followed evil..

So who made evil?
You cant asnwer,or do not wish to face the fact that god made all,,good and evil.
It would unravel your world and make you lose faith but i am sure that with "Devout" christian they will be able to somehowmake a new explanation.

As for you line "intellectual agruments will never get anyone anywhere"...thankyou for calling me an intellect,but it has gotten me to where i am now,with my mind and my question.Alhamdulilah.

So in Islam we say to those who are asking,ask all the question THEN belive.

For you you want people to believe first then ask..

[ZOREENA]

Put It Like This.....i Love My Father To Death....dont Mean I Dont Fear Him....u Can Love Somone But Fear Punishment Too!!!

[Phil12123]

As for you line "intellectual agruments will never get anyone anywhere"... thank you for calling me an intellect, but it has gotten me to where i am now, with my mind and my question.Alhamdulilah.

So in Islam we say to those who are asking, ask all the question THEN believe.

For you you want people to believe first then ask..

I would say, there is nothing wrong with asking, as long as you realize that it is not the answers to your specific questions that is going to give you LIFE. It is Jesus Christ and Him Alone.

John 20:
24. But Thomas, called Didymus, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came.
25. The other disciples therefore said to him, "We have seen the Lord.'' But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.''
26. And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!''
27. Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.''
28. And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!''
29. Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.''
30. And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;
31. but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

Only believing in Jesus as the Son of God will give you life. If you must have all your questions answered BEFORE you believe, you will NEVER believe and you will NEVER have LIFE.

1 John 5:
11. And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

No one will ever know God by having questions answered first.

1 Cor. 1:
18. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19. For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.''
20. Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21. For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Peace

[Zulkiflim]

I would say, there is nothing wrong with asking, as long as you realize that it is not the answers to your specific questions that is going to give you LIFE. It is Jesus Christ and Him Alone.

John 20:
24. But Thomas, called Didymus, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came.
25. The other disciples therefore said to him, "We have seen the Lord.'' But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.''
26. And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!''
27. Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.''
28. And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!''
29. Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.''
30. And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;
31. but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

Only believing in Jesus as the Son of God will give you life. If you must have all your questions answered BEFORE you believe, you will NEVER believe and you will NEVER have LIFE.

1 John 5:
11. And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

No one will ever know God by having questions answered first.

1 Cor. 1:
18. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19. For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.''
20. Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21. For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Peace

Salaam,

that is circular reasoning..

to understand i must believe than will i understand.

the verse about thomas is about doubt.Not unbelief.
So the other disciple SAW jesus and told thomas who did not beleive.
i ask you if Jesus did not show himself to the disciples WOULD THEY AHVE BELEIVED?
NO.
So is it wrong for thomas to disbelief when he did not see,not understand nor felt?
Yes.


then it goes on to say that Jesus perform more miracles to establich faith.So by saying such these disciples needed to see these miracle to confirm faith.

So wihout the miracle would people have believed?
Would the people of that time be aware of jesus if he did not perform miracle like the bread and the raising of the dead and what not?
People followed becasue of those miracle's that they see.

So i ask you,would you be here as a chrisitna if the Disciple all DID NOT SEE JESUS?Would they have believed?
NO.

So it is logical and a command of Allah for man to ask and to ask and to ask...



As for the verse "i will destroy the wisdom of the wise"

First off thank you for calling me wise,,,ahem..LOLOL

But again then you have chrisitan degenerate to when the church will cast anyone who say the earth is round into the dungeon.


But that prophecy too have failed and the wisdom of every facet still exist.But that verse is about division in the discipliles and their follower,so perhaps it is refering to the wisdom of the disciples being destroyed?

[Phil12123]

that is circular reasoning..

to understand i must believe than will i understand.

Call it what you want. It really isn't based on any reasoning, circular or otherwise. It is based on experience and the Word of God. Experience tells me that until I believed, my eyes were blind to the Truth. And they would never have been opened by my insisting that I first understand the Truth. That would never have come, apart from my belief.

the verse about thomas is about doubt. Not unbelief.
So the other disciple SAW jesus and told thomas who did not beleive.
i ask you if Jesus did not show himself to the disciples WOULD THEY AHVE BELEIVED?
NO.
So is it wrong for thomas to disbelief when he did not see,not understand nor felt?
Yes.

I'm sorry because I'm having a hard time following you. First you say the verse about Thomas is about doubt, not unbelief. Then you say Thomas "did not believe" And you also ask if it was wrong for Thomas not to believe when he did not see, etc. Why the distinction between doubt and unbelief? The verse says that Thomas said "unless I SEE, I will not believe" or words to that effect. Doubt doesn't seem to be the issue.

In any event, my point in quoting that passage was to show you that LIFE comes by believing that "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31). It does not come by having all your questions answered first.

Once a person believes and receives LIFE, the Scriptures come alive and actually mean something, like when Jesus opened their understanding of the scriptures:

Luke 24:
44. Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.''
45. And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46. Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,
47. "and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Plus, after believing, we have the promise of the Holy Spirit to guide believers into all truth:

John 14:26. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

John 16:13. "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

That only applies to believers, not doubters, disbelievers or questioners who don't yet believe.

Peace

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

i learned in class that adam and eve both sinned but eve supposedly seduced adam into eating the fruit/apple. not sure...if some1 wants to correct that.. thatd be nice.

[Phil12123]

i learned in class that adam and eve both sinned but eve supposedly seduced adam into eating the fruit/apple. not sure...if some1 wants to correct that.. thatd be nice.

Here is the passage:

Genesis 3:
1. Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?''
2. And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden;
3. "but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.' ''
4. And the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.
5. "For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.''
6. So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.
7. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.

In the New Testament, Paul says in 1 Tim. 2:
13. For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

Also, in 2 Cor. 11:3 Paul says, "But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

So, from the above, we learn that Eve was deceived, ate the forbidden fruit, and then gave to Adam with her and he ate too. Adam wasn't deceived. He knew better, but he ate anyway. So, I think he's more guilty than Eve for (1) eating though he was not deceived, (2) not refusing to eat no matter what Eve did, and (3) not giving his wife proper guidance so insure she didn't eat. It doesn't really say she "seduced" him to eat. We can't blame her for that, but we can blame her for not obeying God, just as Adam didn't, and for not consulting Adam or God Himself before eating.

Peace

[Zulkiflim]

Call it what you want. It really isn't based on any reasoning, circular or otherwise. It is based on experience and the Word of God. Experience tells me that until I believed, my eyes were blind to the Truth. And they would never have been opened by my insisting that I first understand the Truth. That would never have come, apart from my belief.



I'm sorry because I'm having a hard time following you. First you say the verse about Thomas is about doubt, not unbelief. Then you say Thomas "did not believe" And you also ask if it was wrong for Thomas not to believe when he did not see, etc. Why the distinction between doubt and unbelief? The verse says that Thomas said "unless I SEE, I will not believe" or words to that effect. Doubt doesn't seem to be the issue.

In any event, my point in quoting that passage was to show you that LIFE comes by believing that "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31). It does not come by having all your questions answered first.

Once a person believes and receives LIFE, the Scriptures come alive and actually mean something, like when Jesus opened their understanding of the scriptures:

Luke 24:
44. Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.''
45. And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46. Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,
47. "and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Plus, after believing, we have the promise of the Holy Spirit to guide believers into all truth:

John 14:26. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

John 16:13. "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

That only applies to believers, not doubters, disbelievers or questioners who don't yet believe.

Peace

Salaam,

for me it is circular reasoning,.,

to understand i must first beleive,after i beleive then i will understand.

Weird thinking but again that is why in Islam we say ASK ALL QUESTION before you embrace the faith,it is your salvation or doom that you reject.

But for you,do not ask,keep quite and believe first.

As for thomas,trully did you read your post,
thomas is a disciple of Jesus supposedly,and he is not an unbeliever thus not unbelief but doubt.

thomas does beleive in Jesus but DOUBT that Jesus return wihout WITNESSING IT..

As i asked you,the other 11 disciple were they in doubt before jesus appeared to them?
Yes they were,did they not believe Jesus,,,nothey beleive in jesus.

And when Jesus appeared to them they beleived that HE DID COME BACK..

and when the 11 told thomas,thomas did not beleive so he doubted that it is true that is why he say UNLESS I SEE IT FOR MYSLEF(generally).

thus thomas doubted what the other are saying and so jesus appeared and thomas witnessed ,touched and felt Jesus PHYSICALLY..


For you that verse is about believeing wihout understanding..

Let me make it into poitn from for you

1) Did the 11 disciples believe Jesus came back if they did not see it for themselves?

my answer,,NO
So they needed to see to feel and to udnerstadn to beleive..they doubt and needed proof.

But you are mocking the disciple by saying they needed to understadna dn to beleive.

2) Did thomas doubt the disciples when they told him Jesus came back?

Yes
For thosmas said i will not beleive till he saw it for himself,touched and felt.
PHYSICAL...

thus thomas needed proof.

So are they wrong?

I will talk about Luke 24 after this.
LOL

[Helena]

:sl:

jus wanted to get a better understaning on this issue...as i have studied in childhood...that catholics believe that children are born with sins.....and once they enter this world..they are fully educated...and evetually will be baptised and be free from their sins...why do catholics believe that? wots the history and reason behind it? is it biblical?

as we believe that the child is born pure, once he or she enters the world....falls into the trap of saytan and goes astray.......

hope i can get some answers inshalah...

:w:

[Jayda]

We believe that we inherited Adams sin, and that it is washed away through baptism.

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

Again?? this thread has been talked about before right?

LOL..

Guess it is true,a joke about forum,,some post a thread about changing a light bulb and it creates a big problem,,then forgoten aftr 4 mothns,2 month laters some post the same quesiton agian,,and it goes ina cycle..

LOL

[Curaezipirid]

Alaikumassalam,

It is a simple matter: every Human existant must live in Jesus example so as to become freed of original sin. That is why Catholics say you need to be Baptised, but in general they are only providing those whom they Baptise with opportunities to escape from their own account in Allah. Indigenous persons all around the world have been experiencing that any and every church that associates with either Rosicrucian occultists or the Church in Rome, have been imposing upon any person who sustains actual Faith in Jesus, that they must suffer the sins of whomsoever regards that Jesus was actually a fraud. The silly duffers, they are only self identifying their belief as that of the Synagogue of Satan, and as those persons whom are bound to become trapped and unable to exit from the visit to Hell.

But that is not the question, the question is rather only about what is original sin. Surely yes it is as Adam suffers, and that not any one Human Soul will be free of until we all are. That is why Jesus asked us to die in his example so as to live true to Him, and provided us with that certainty in the hereafter through his ressurrection. He need not have manifested it as an open teaching, and yet He has, and in certain knowledge of the many measures by which his teaching has been falisfied.

Just believe in Jesus actual words (Trying to find an edition of the New Testament in which His words are not marked in red helps) and the whole issue of original sin becomes resolvable. But for that matter just listen to Qur'an recitals and you'll be better able to comprehend what is meant by original sin.

The only people born without, are who die in Jesus. But that does not mean who are only Baptised and confirmed etc, but who chose to accept the burden of a death alike to His Crucifixion. There is a thread started with a Buddhist quote about the way of a Bodhisattva that expresses the exact sentiment required, but then it can be more frightening that Qur'an. The Buddhists seem to use their teachings these days only to validate their superiority to Christianity rather than actually adhereing to. The tread is called something like: "Islam true religion", and has the number 28569 in the link I have to it.

mu'asalam

[Helena]

Salaam,

Again?? this thread has been talked about before right?

LOL..

Guess it is true,a joke about forum,,some post a thread about changing a light bulb and it creates a big problem,,then forgoten aftr 4 mothns,2 month laters some post the same quesiton agian,,and it goes ina cycle..

LOL

i think i posted this question before...man am soo confused....

:threadclo

[cihad]

Has anybody seen that guy...
Jeff Lang or something

he explains it nicely -i mean come on Adam and Eve just ate a few peices of fruit off a tree, i'm sure you have done worse than that!
he says its like when they ate off the tree it was the first individual choice that he made, which shows that he was ready to go and live on earth..etc

it was hardly a sin , and anyway they didn't ask you before they ate the fruit,did they?

what about babies that die before baptism
do they go to hell because of smething they had no idea about?

[Helena]

i've discussed original sin before.....but i wanted to know when a child is born....him/her is the carrier of sin...why is this? is it biblical????

[ZOREENA]

We believe that we inherited Adams sin, and that it is washed away through baptism.

Catholics inherited sinz, coz of Adam...first I heard of that and I used to be a Cathoilic...but we were never taught anything worthwile anyway!! So original sin is based on Adamz actionz, even though Jesus died for the peoplez sinz, still a new born baby is born into it? And the priest has the special power to absolve this sin, only if the baby is baptised??

[glo]

Has anybody seen that guy...
Jeff Lang or something

he explains it nicely -i mean come on Adam and Eve just ate a few peices of fruit off a tree, i'm sure you have done worse than that!
he says its like when they ate off the tree it was the first individual choice that he made, which shows that he was ready to go and live on earth..etc

it was hardly a sin , and anyway they didn't ask you before they ate the fruit,did they?

Forgive me cihad, but your post demonstrates just how little understanding you have of the Christian faith. Either that, or that this Jeff Lang guy might not be trying too hard to explain Christian doctrine ... :?

The point is not that they ate a piece of fruit! :rollseyes
The point is that they went willingly against God's instructions. (Obedience to Allah is a strong Islamic principle, so you should understand the severity of this.)

Furthermore, the fruit was from the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil.
So not only were Adam and Eve disobeying God's instructions, they also wanted to be like God, rather than be submissive to him. (Submission to Allah is also a strong Islamic principle, so again, there should be no problems with that)
Indeed, the tempter said this to them:
"For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."(Genesis 3:5)

That is the sin which continues to be present in us humans to this present day: The desire to rebel against God, to ignore his presence and his commands to us, and tothink of yourself as being greater than God! (Can you, as a Muslim, disagree with any of this?)
Just look around the secular world, in which people genuinely think they can manage just fine without God! :?

what about babies that die before baptism
do they go to hell because of smething they had no idea about?

Most Christians do not believe this!
God does not hold people accountable until they are old enough to make an informed choice about their faith. Hence children and people who are mentally or congitively unable to understand are saved anyway.
In fact, Jesus himself said this:
"I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me.
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. (Matthew 18:2-6)

I hope this explains the Christian perspective somewhat. :)
(I just realise that I wrote all this in post #11 ... bit of a deja-vu then ... :giggling:)

Peace.

[InToTheRain]

Hi Glo and :sl:

That is the sin which continues to be present in us humans to this present day: The desire to rebel against God, to ignore his presence and his commands to us, and tothink of yourself as being greater than God! (Can you, as a Muslim, disagree with any of this?)
Just look around the secular world, in which people genuinely think they can manage just fine without God! :?

From what I understand from christianity i believe what we see today is a result of mankind bieng led astray by satan and his works. He has set many traps for us, tempts us to do much evil and loves seeing mankinds demise. After all, if this original sin was all that was needed tempt us to go against God, there would be no need for satan.

Matthew 13:19

When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path.

Mathew 13:37-39: He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works" (2 Corinthians 11:13-14).

Peter 5:8-9
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

and there are many more which tell of how satan/devil attempts to lead people astray. This makes more sense as to why people commit sins and keep on doing so. We also know that Adam and Eve (Peace be upon them) were Sinless, pure. But the Satan decieved them and led them astray using his mind games and traps. Similiarly Children are born innocent and remain innocent until they are led astray due to Satans temptations and well constructed deceptions.

Most Christians do not believe this!
God does not hold people accountable until they are old enough to make an informed choice about their faith. Hence children and people who are mentally or congitively unable to understand are saved anyway.
In fact, Jesus himself said this:
"I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me.
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. (Matthew 18:2-6)

Jesus says the children belive in him, doesn't that mean they were already baptised/christian? Does this not imply jesus is reffering to a christian child and not a random child?

Peace be upon you

[InToTheRain]

:sl:

Can a christian brother or sister of the book give clarification regarding my previous post :?

Incase its not clear :hiding: I was emphasising that from my understanding of what I read from the Bible the concept of original sin bieng inherited by man from Adam(AS) and Eve(AS) doesn't exist. I also whent on to say how from the teachings of the Bible it is saitans work to make us rebel against God and not this original Sin.

1) Adam(AS) and Eve(AS) where pure and sinless before eating the apple. If the inheritance of original sin is what makes us rebel from God, why did Adam(AS) and Eve(AS) eat the fruit when they were pure? Clearly is was Saitans work.

2) Jesus(AS) warned us many times against the temptation of the devil and how the saitan will lead us astray. Doesn't the existence of an original sin which makes us rebel against God negate the work or existence of saitan and his work. And it also contradicts 1)

3) To me it also removes the concept of sin being inherited or bieng accountable for the sins of another. This means babies or children who are incapable of making a decision are pure and innocent until they decide to rebel against God by following the works of saitan.

Does the teachings of christianity agree with me on this or is my understanding of christianity wrong?

Peace be upon you.