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Link
03-18-2005, 03:54 PM
:sl:

the thread was closed although we did not get into the most important part which was understanding the hadith about Adam (as) created in Allah's image, and about the throne and kursi, was I using anything but Quran and Sunna to argue my previous points?

subhannallah, the phrase we follow Quran and sunna holds no water, u follow views, interpetations, and opinions of fallible scholars even if it clearly contradicts Quran and Sunna and logic

therefor plz don't use that slogan again because all it is a slogan

Kadafi it is your opinion that is a deviation, u just say the hadiths says this, why do we need to follow your interpetation, I was refering things back to the Quran, it clearly refuted your interpetation, will all other attributes disappear except the face, how do the awliya seek Allah's face, how do those who do du'a seek Allah's face, why are we commaned to seek Allah's face every we turn and wherever we are, indeed the interpetation I provided covers the verses and there is no contradiction in any of them, but your interpetation goes against the Quran clearly, every single one of the verse with the wijahallah mentioned cannot be compatible with your interpetation, yet you close it and lable my proof from Quran as deviation, subhanallah, may Allah guide us to the right path
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Link
03-18-2005, 04:29 PM
subhannallah, i follow a scholar, but their are somethings i disagree with, like i do not believe that Adam's (as) eating of the tree was just unblamable mistake, i believe it was sin, I have different view of isma of anybiya (as), there are many things i learned from him ofcourse but that does not mean i have to agree with everything he says

why is it neccessary to follow everything one scholar says, let say u agree with most of his things, but some of his things disagree with Quran, I doubt there is one scholar that none of his interpertations of Quran and sunna would contradict the Quran and logic, that is because they are not infallible, the Quran says if was from anyone else than Allah (SwT), their would be alot of contradictions, this is regarding writting a divine book but it proves this is the nature of man

If I became a scholar, maybe If Allah guided me and taught me most of say would be true and enlightening and such knowledge is universal since it comes from Allah (SwT), but i am sure there are going be things that can refuted by Quran and Sunna because such things come from myself

that is why dicussions are needed and blind immation regarding things other than fiqh (laws and sunna practices) is neccessary

The Rasool (pbuh) said my umma will not unite on what is wrong

we should not be like ---

may Allah guide us all
Reply

kadafi
03-18-2005, 05:03 PM
:sl:

Brother, please do not accuse me of anythin'. The reason why the thread was closed is due the inadequate KNOWLEDGE potrayed in that topic.

Your claims do not hold a basis in the light of the Qur'an and the Sunnah. And furthermore, you only use [distorted] translations in order to prove your point.

What I find odd is the claim that you "refuted" this deviant beliefs accordin' to the Qur'an and the Sunnah? All I saw was cut-and-paste translated verses without elobratin' your view.

Here, you're tryin' to interpretate the attributes of Allah (without proof) accordin' to your own whims and desires while Allah (Exalted is He) specifically mentioned his attributes.

Ibn Taymeeyah said, "The early generations of Muslims and their Imams were in complete unanimous agreement that the Lord is separate and distinct from his creation. He is to be described only with that with which He described Himself (i.e. in the Qur'aan) or with which His Prophet (sallaAllahu `alaihi wa sallam) described Him, without distorting, negating, delving into the exact nature of, or believing them to be the same as something known such as human characteristics of the same names. Allah is described with all characteristics of perfection and no characteristics of weakness or imperfection . He knows that there is nothing comparable to Him, nor to His words in any of His characteristics of perfection."

Naa'im ibn Hammad, al-Bukhaaree's teacher, who was quoted by ibn Katheer in his Tafseer: "Whoever assimilates Allah with His creation has committed kufr (disbelief). Whoever denies Allah's description of Himself has committed Kufr. Assimilation to (the creation) cannot be understood from the description of Allah by Allah, or His Messenger sallAllahu `alaihi wa sallam. Whoever confirms the Attributes, mentioned in the clear Aayaat (verses of the Qur'aan) and authentic Hadeeths, believing that these Attributes are in a manner befitting to Allah's Majesty, and denying all ill descriptions of Allah; he has followed the way of guidance."


"The scholars of Ahl us Sunnah wal Jamaa`ah say that the correct Faith in Allah's attributes means believing in them without denying them or their meanings (ta`teel), without interpreting them and changing their meanings (tahreef), without explaining how they are (takyeef) or likening Allah's attributes to those of the creation (tamtheel). Although a few scholars had slightly differred on this point, it is known that the concencus of the predecessors and leaders of this Ummah is as stated above."


more at:
http://www.islam.org.au/articles/12/attrib.htm


Here, my brother -- 1400 years later, tryin' to change the meaning of the attributes of the Almighty.

And hurlin' allegations such as "you follow scholars, etc etc" only resembles the same allegations of the "Quran-alone" sect who reject the Sunnah of the Prophet (Peace and blessings of ALlah be upon him)

We do not discuss any sectarian issues here 'cause it can confuse people and why discuss falsehood?

Akhi, I'll let you reply on this topic one more time and I'll close it since it goes against the Forum Rules.

:w:
Reply

Brother_Mujahid
03-18-2005, 05:45 PM
the point of closing it was that.......

no tension is caused, everyone doesnt get worked up, in most cases such arguments are of little or no benefit.

wasalam :shade:
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Link
03-18-2005, 08:30 PM
Originally Posted by kadafi
:sl:

What I find odd is the claim that you "refuted" this deviant beliefs accordin' to the Qur'an and the Sunnah? All I saw was cut-and-paste translated verses without elobratin' your view.
:sl:

I did post my view of them, and i cut and pasted them by searching for them not copy paste articles like others were doing

the interpetations are not my own too, they are not my own whims, i have read hadiths explaining the meaning of the verses regarding 'And will remain the face of you lord'

plz explain how your interpetation of 'Allah's face' is compatible with the verses that uses the words

I showed u the compatible interpetation now, just do the same if your truthful

u act like your sure that Allah has hands, eyes, shin, face, I swear to God i can testify that they are not his sefat (eternal attributes) with an eternal curse on me if they are, I don't now how it is possible for a believer to even think of such possibilities

Such things are created things, Allah belongs the kingdom, knower of the seen and unseen, Exalted He is above such claims

He is the light of the heavens and the earth, he is the hidden yet the manifest, he is close in his farness and far in his closness, he is above the limits of body and body parts, movement cannot affect one whom space does apply to it cause he created space and its maintainer, everything has relative size but Allah (swt) has created and apportioned everything, so such descriptions of movement cannot apply to him, he is not nearer to a place than another, for he is the cause of all existence, with his permission and command everything remains

MAy Allah guide us, testifying tawheed now is labeled following ones whim, My Allah guide us
Reply

Genius
03-18-2005, 08:45 PM
Censorship is halal if it aids propaganda. If people have the power to stifle opposing views they will use it, sorry bro.
Reply

boriqee
03-19-2005, 02:57 AM
asalamu alaikum warahmatullah

I was asked by a brother to come here to reply to a topic that has been closed and due to it being closed I would recommend that after this post that it could be closed.


In regards to this subject there are certain principles that the people most knowlgeable about the religion of Islam has laid out in order to avoid that deviation should occur.
from among those priciples is

1.Allah says in the Quran
Say (O Muhammad SAW): "(But) the things that my Lord has indeed forbidden are AlFawahish (great evil sins, every kind of unlawful sexual intercourse, etc.) whether committed openly or secretly, sins (of all kinds), unrighteous oppression, joining partners (in worship) with Allah for which He has given no authority, and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge." (Chapter #7, Verse #33)

2. The understanding of the companions of Allahs messenger and then those who followed them are the ones to be relied upon. This also includes the scholars who have followed the madhaab of the salaf. This is because anyone can say they follow the quraan and sunnah and beleive in its texts but if they have the wrong understanding of them then this would lead to deviation from the intent of what Allah and His messenger revealed. So when it was said
subhannallah, the phrase we follow Quran and sunna holds no water, u follow views, interpetations, and opinions of fallible scholars even if it clearly contradicts Quran and Sunna and logic
then this has no validity nor is it held in the sunnah because our nabi said "Whoever Allah wishes good for, He grants him understanding of the religion". Of course their are numerous examples of major evils of things that have happened due to the end result of what Link has said regarding what I pasted from him and from that is how all of the devaint creeds and its people who have relied upon their own selves for understanding the quraan and hadeeth.

On top of this those who are endowed with the sharia and the uloom of the religion and uloomul-hadeeth know best the meaning of the naql (texts). So automatically by default their sayings regarding their expalnation of the texts are given precedence over what those less then them from the lay people or those who have deviated, have to say. And when one of their sayings do contradict the sunnah then it is rejected and refuted by others with knowledge.

Another point to add is that these people of knowledge have reached the level of mujtahid, one who is able to make ijtihaad and derive rulings and from the turth concerning their affair is just as rasoolullah salallahu alaihi wa salam said that "the one who is right in making ijtihaad earns two rewards and theo ne who errs earns one reward" so following an opinion that they have that may seem wrong appearently to anyone is still much more acceptable then taking on board our own interpretations of the texts and this was also with thsoe righteous first band of muslims since they were very weary of saying statements by which there was no one who precedded them in.

On top of this, Link, you use a general ruler that all men have faults an err and go against the text sometimes for the purpose of leaving their understanding of the texts. And there are many things that can make a lay person say "whay on earth would this scholar say such a thing" but he has knowledge and insight for why he said it which is disguised from us nad it could be most likely that the haq is with him.

3. Regarding the unseen. We do not speak about the unseen whether it is in the topics of Allahs qadr wal qada, His names and attributes, or the days to come. We can only speak for surity. and from this matter (names and attributes) then it is surity that all of the people of the sunnah including the sahaba (no differentiation) did not make t'aweel of Allahs names and attributes to mean other than what was stated by Him or His messenger. This beleif was with them and those who follow them and due to many reports concerning other paths that lead to destruction then when Aisha narrated that "whoever introduces something into our affair shal have it rejected" then an understanding that does not coincide with this automatically falls into the threat of what has been revealed and reported.



So these three are the base for the sub topic of Allahs names and attributes.
so in His names and atributes then as follows there is the main principle

1. stated by the Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih al-Uthaymeen in his explanation to the book "Lumaatul-Itiqaad" by the Imaam and mujadid of his era Ibn Qudamah al-Maqdisee. he said.

"With regard to the texts of the quraan and sunnah, it is obligatory 9concerning His names and attributes) to leave their proofs and implications upon their literal meanings without chaning them. this is because Allah revealed the Quraan in a plain arabic language and the Prophet salallahu alaihi wa salam used to speak with the arabic language." and then he goes on until he says "Also, chaning it (names and attributes) from its literal meaning is speaking about Allah without knowledge and this is forbidden due to the statement of Allah" I posted it up top, it is (7:33)
(note: I will only narrate the principles that the shaykh said that concerns with this topic)

2.he goes on to say "Each attribute of Allah should bring three questions to mind 1. Is it real (as oppossed to figurative) and why? 2. Is it permissible to describe how it is and why? 3. Is it comparable to the attribute of creation and why.
The answer to the first is Yes, it is rwal, because the principles of speech concerning this subject is based on literalness (as opposed to symbolism). This (principles) may not be abandoned, unless there is an authentic evidence that restricts it.
the second answer is No, it is not permissible to describe how an attribute, due to Allah's statement "but they will never encompass anything of His knowledge" (20:110)
the thrid answer is that it cannot be compared to the creations attributes due to Allahs saying 'there is nothing like unto Him". And also Allah is worthy of the utmost perfection, therefore it is impossible for him to be compared to the creation, since that is something deficeint and imperfect."

So no compare this to the bulk of what many of the brother brought, may Allah reward them, and also compare this to one who preceded Ibn Uthaymeen
He is Abu Uthman ibn Ismael as-Saboonee and in his book "Aqeedatu-salaf As'haabul-Hadeeth" he says regarding the creed of the people of hadeeth that "The people of hadeeth also say about all of their Lord's attributes, whether mentioend in the Quraan or in the authentic ahadeeth regarding the Hearing, the Seeing, the Eyes, the Face, the Knowledge, the Strenght, the Power, the Glory, the Greatness, the Will, the Intent, the Speech, the Words, Bieng Pleased, Being Displeased, Life, to be Watchful, to be Happy, to Laugh and others, that these attributes are not compared with the attributes of creation.

On the contrary, they (people of hadeeth) limit themselves to what Allah, the Most High, said and what His messenger said without adding anything to them, saying how they are, Likening them, distorting and changing their meanings, or making any alterations, taking out of the context in which the arabs understood them, attaching to them false interpretations. THEY TAKE TO THEM UPON THEIR APPARENT MEANINGS. THEY ENTRUST ITS UNDERSTANDING TO ALLAH, THE MOST HIGH, AND THEY AFFIRM NONE KNOWS ITS T'AWEEL EXCEPT ALLAH, JUST AS ALLAH INFORMED US ABOUT THOS WHO ARE FIRMLY GROUNDED IN KNOWLEDGE, that they say

'And those firmly grounded in knowledge say;we beleive in all that is from our Lord; and none receive admonition except the men of understanding' (4:7)

all the Imaams of the salaf of this nation have beleived and agreed upon that these texts concerning His names and attributes are constricted to its apparent meanings without any tamtheel, tashreeh, or t'aweel in them.
and to Alah we seek guidance

Asalamu alaikum
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-19-2005, 04:40 AM
:sl:
Insha'Allah, I will respond to all of Link's points and clarify the issue before I close this thread.

055.024
And His are the ships reared aloft in the sea like mountains.


055.025
Which then of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?

055.026
Everyone on it must pass away.

055.027
But will abide (for ever) the Face of thy Lord,- full of Majesty, Bounty and Honour.

The meaning is that that link will remain, so everything directed at Allah (swt) will remain, and everything else shall perish. this also linked to the verses in suratal noor I just mentioned and has to do with 'wahdatal wujood' and the fact that Allah (SwT) will complete the light of the believers

this refers to what Allah (swt) says in his wise reminder:

016.096
What is with you must vanish: what is with Allah will endure...

and

020.131
...and the sustenance (given) by your Lord is better and more abiding.

and to the verses that Allah (swt) will guide the believers to his light and complete them their light

However, if we take the interpetation of ibn Taymiya, then his other attributes hands, self, shin, eyes, are all suppose to dissappear, and Gods face is suppose to remain, such a belief is impossible

therefor, his and Abu Hanifas interpetation contradicts the Quran

I have just applied this meaning to one of the verse, if apply to the other verses, simalar absurd meanings will come abou
The response to your point is as follows:
Concerning the interpretation that Face refers to His Essence (Dhaat). Then if it is meant by this that it refers to His Essence while at the same time affirming a Face for him, then this is acceptable. For Face is an attribute of His Essence and it is not something created or separate from Him. Hence, if everything will perish save His Face, then it is understood from this that His Dhaat will not perish either, it will remain and this is because Face is an Attribute of the Essence, not created and separate from it. However if it is meant that it refers to His Essence while at the same time denying the attribute of Face for Him, then this is falsehood as has been made clear from the above. And based upon this we can understand the statements of those scholars who explain that Face refers to His Essence in certain verses of the Qur’aan. So there is no contradiction between what they say and between the fact that Allaah has an Attribute of Face.

Ibn Hajar in Fath ul-Bari, in explanation of the verse "Everything shall perish except His Face" [28:88], explains the statement of Imaam Bukhaaree in his Kitaabut Tafseer of his Saheeh, "… except His Face, except His dominion, (illaa mulkahu)" saying,

"In the narration of an-Nasafi there occurs ‘Ma’mar said’ and then he mentioned the above. This Ma’mar is Abu ‘Ubaidah ibn al-Muthnaa, and these are his words taken from his book ‘Majaaz ul-Qur’aan’, however with the wording ‘except He’. At-Tabari has quoted the same from some of the linguists and al-Faraa mentioned the same. Ibn at-Teen and Abu ‘Ubaidah said, ‘except His Face, meaning His Majesty’. And it has been said ‘except He alone’, as you say ‘May Allaah ennoble your face’ meaning ‘may Allaah ennoble you’."

So here, some of the scholars are of the opinion that Face here refers to the Essence, and there is no problem with this as has proceeded and nor does it negate the Attribute of Face for Allaah.

Now in case anyone tries to argue (in the favour of ta’wil) using this statement of Imaam Bukhaaree, which at best is indecisive, then what would be his reply to the fact that Imaam Bukhaaree affirms the Attribute of Face in his Kitaab ut-Taweed at the end of his Saheeh, also called ar-Raddu ‘alal-Jahmiyyah (Refutation of the Jahmiyyah), using as evidence the very same verse as above [28:88]!!!

Chapter: The Statement of Allaah, "Everything shall perish save His Face".

Narrated Jabir bin Abdullaah, "When this verse, ‘Say (O Muhammad) He has power to send punishment on you from above’ [6:65], was revealed, the Prophet (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) said, ‘I seek refuge with Your Face’. Allaah revealed, ‘Or from underneath your feet’ [6:65], the Prophet (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) said, ‘I seek refuge with Your Face’. Then Allaah revealed ‘Or to cover you with confusion or party strife!’ [6:65], then the Prophet (sallallaahu alaihi wasallaam) said, ‘This is easier’."

And here Imaam Bukhaaree affirms, without doubt, the Attribute of Face, just as he brought narrations in affirmation of Hand, Eyes, Self (Nafs), His Speech, His being above the Throne and many of the other attributes that the Jahmiyyah denied. So this puts an end to the argument adduced from his Kitaab ut-Tafseer.

In addition, the arguments presented above would also apply. Try imposing these such isolated explanations that you use for denying the Attribute of Face to all those occurrences of the mention of the Face in the Book and the Sunnah and see where that leads you?! Inconsistency and mere falsehood!!
So there is nothing wrong with accepting that the face refers to Allah's essence as long as we affirm that the face is one of Allah's attributes.

My slave keeps on coming closer to Me through performing Nawafil (praying or doing extra deeds besides what is obligatory) till I love him, so I become his hearing with which he hears, and his sight with which he sees, and his hand with which he grips, and his leg with which he walks...

If not, then why do u take those verses as literal, when they do not even have the apparent meaning of attributing Allah (SwT) hands
We always take the apparent meaning, the question is only, what is the apparent meaning?

Shaykh Ibn Al-Uthaymeen has explained that the apparent meaning of this is that Allah swt guides ones hands, eyes, and feet so they only perform that which is pleasing to Allah swt.

So does this mean cows were created superior to Iblees (la) (who was once an angel)
Iblis is a Jinn. He was never an angel.

And lastly, you posted some verses and claimed that in these verses hands represented own will and possesion. But you didn't realize that it represents possesion because we have hands. Therefore, if Allah swt says that He has hands, then we affirm this belief but we say that His attributes befit His Majesty.

Also, your interpretation ignores the authentic hadith: The heart of the servants are between two of Ar-Rahman's fingers.

Shaykh Uthaymeen has explained that this does not mean that Allah is mixed with creation at all. This is similar to someone watching the full oon and pointing out that its position is between two cities on the horizon. In reality, the moon is very distant, but this is an ssue of perspective. Likewise, Allah swt has complete control over us without being part of creation.

Concerning Allah's eye,

20:39 And so that you (Musa) would be raised upon Our Eye.

We interpret this according to its apparent meaning, but what is its apparent meaning?

Shaykh Uthaymeen has explained, it is that Musa pbuh was raised under the protection and watch of Allah swt's Eyes.
And of course, the nature of this is what befits His Majesty.

Link has also posted this verse before:
36:71 See they not that it is We Who have created for them - among the things which Our hands have fashioned - cattle, which are under their dominion?-

What is the apparent meaning?

There are two uses of the word hands in the Qur'an:

42:30 Whatever misfortune happens to you, is because on the things your hands have wrought, and for many (of them) He grants forgiveness.

This refers to actions whether one has done it with their hands or not.

The second usage is:
2:79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

This refers to someone toughing something directly with their hands.

Both are apparent meanings but the difference occurs when the ba(directly with) is used, which indicates touching something directly.

Therefore, Allah swt did not create cattle with His hands in the same way that Adam pbuh was created with His hands. The cattle was created by Allah swt but the action is attributed to His hands just as this verse says:
42:30 Whatever misfortune happens to you, is because on the things your hands have wrought, and for many (of them) He grants forgiveness.


So Link has pulled some verses and wants to know why we interpret some one way and others a different way.


We must interpret everything in the apparent meaning unless there are verses which prevent this. So when Allah swt says:


Do they not see that We have created for them of what Our Hands have created, the cattle, so that they are their owners. (Ya-Sin 36:71)


The word used here is ÃóíúÏöíäóÇ
(without the ba indicating that Allah swt created them not directly with His hands, but the action has been attributed to His hands)

But when Allah swt says:



(Allâh) said: "O Iblîs (Satan)! What prevents you from prostrating yourself to one whom I have created with Both My Hands. Are you too proud (to fall prostrate to Adam) or are you one of the highly exalted?" (Sad 38:75)


The word used here is ÈöíóÏóí
(with the ba indicating direct creation with His hands)

Hopefully this clarifies the issue. I will post articles in the Sectarian section on this subject as well.

And the best book on this subject is CONCERNING THE BEAUTIFUL NAMES AND ATTRIBUTES OF ALLAAH
by Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih Al-Uthaymeen.


:w:
Reply

Link
03-19-2005, 05:12 AM
:sl:

thankyou brother Ansar al-'Adl, I do not see any conflict with the interpetation you should regarding the verse that everything shall perish except Allah's face with the verse itself, however can you show me how the interpetation is compatible with your the following verses aswell

006.052
Send not away those who call on their Lord morning and evening, seeking His face. In naught art thou accountable for them, and in naught are they accountable for thee, that thou shouldst turn them away, and thus be (one) of the unjust.

002.115
And Allah's is the East and the West, therefore, whither you turn, thither is Allah's face; surely Allah is Amplegiving, Knowing.

013.022
Those who patiently persevere, seeking the face of their Lord; Establish regular prayers; spend, out of (the gifts) We have bestowed for their sustenance, secretly and openly; and turn off Evil with good: for such there is the final attainment of the (eternal) home,-

:w:
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-19-2005, 05:24 AM
I'm glad we have reached an agreement.

Concerning those verses, the scholars have said that some of the salaf interpreted these verses to refer to 'Qiblah' (direction) which is acceptable, but acceptable for this verse ALONE.

Because such an interpretation wouldn't make sense for other verses.

So the interpretation can vary from verse to verse.
For more info:
http://salafipublications.com/sps/sp...articlePages=1
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-19-2005, 05:25 AM
Originally Posted by Link
006.052
Send not away those who call on their Lord morning and evening, seeking His face. In naught art thou accountable for them, and in naught are they accountable for thee, that thou shouldst turn them away, and thus be (one) of the unjust.
Essence.

002.115
And Allah's is the East and the West, therefore, whither you turn, thither is Allah's face; surely Allah is Amplegiving, Knowing.
Direction.

013.022
Those who patiently persevere, seeking the face of their Lord; Establish regular prayers; spend, out of (the gifts) We have bestowed for their sustenance, secretly and openly; and turn off Evil with good: for such there is the final attainment of the (eternal) home,-
Essence.
Reply

kadafi
03-19-2005, 03:39 PM
Kadafi, i am not taking sides here. If anything i completley agree wholeheartingly with you. Your points in the last post were good. But one thing i must say, and i found this on the sheik haroons forum aswell. There is too much of 'closing' threads and cutting off the discussions, TOO much. If a discussion is going on, it should be allowed to continue, otheise what is the point for a islamic forum? For exampl the last thread that was closed, about allah azzawajjal atributes. Excellent discussion between ansar, link and amir. Real good talk, each making points, sharing/discussing views providing eviodences, asking/answering questions. Then it was closed half way through!


Akhi, this is bad, sure when the thread runs its course and the discussion is finsihed, by all means close the thread, but now as it is happening these days.
:sl: bro,

The reason why I closed the thread is 'cause the discussion was bendin' towards secretarian direction. The discussion had no merit if the threadstarter wants to discuss the attributes of Allah (Exalted is He) that only He knows. We only confirm what Allah (Exalted is He) has stated in the Qur'an and how He characterizes himself. Ergo, why it's a dangerous matter when one tries to interpretate a attribute of the Almighty even though it wasn't mentioned in the Qur'an.

Allah (Exalted is He) said in Surah Al-A'rah, verse 33:

But) the things that my Lord has indeed forbidden are the Fawahish (immoral deeds) whether committed openly or secretly, and Ithm, and transgression without right, and joining partners with Allah for which He has given no authority, and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.

That is one of the main reason to close the thread since people started addin' interpretation to His attributes. The safest and the best way is explained eloquently by Imam at-Tahawi in "al-Aqeedah at-Tahawiyyah":

"To imagine Allah in a certain form is not correct. The safest way for a Muslim is to believe in all the attributes of Allah without adding any interpretation. To negate the attributes of Allah altogether or to compare Him to someone, is a deviation from the right path. Our Lord is unique and without any equal at all."


"The salaf, may Allah be pleased with them, said: ‘We believe in these verses and Ahaadeeth as they are, and we leave aside explanation of their meanings to Allah (Exalted is He).

Thus, they affirm their belief that the words Allah’s hand, eye, hands, face cannot be explained in terms that we can understand, and therefore their explanation should be left only to Allah (Exalted is He), who knows their true meaning.

Mohammad ibn al-Hasan, the friend of Abu Hanifa, may Allah be pleased with them both, said: ‘All jurists from the east to the west have agreed on the belief in what is contained in the Qur’an and the authentic Hadeeth regarding the attributes of Allah (Exalted is He), without interpretation, description or comparison. Whoever in these times tries to interpret any of that would be going against the practice of the Prophet, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, and the consensus of the Muslims, because they did not describe nor interpret, but only quoted what is in the Qur’an and the Sunnah and no more.’


The discussion holds the same insignificance as discussin' the exact description of Jannah.


Please dont take offence, or see this as me being critical of your skills. I think you are a top class admin and this is a quality forum, if not the best. Insted see this as a impartial observation.
None taken akhi, your critics are always welcome :)

PS, excellet posts by brother Ansar Al-'Adl and al-Izaaree. Welcome to the forum by the way!

:w:
Reply

syed hasnain RN
05-21-2005, 12:13 AM
salaam everyone, in the chapter of tafsir in bukhari, it is reported that:

"It will be said to hell, are you filled? it will say are there anymore?
on that Allah(S) will put His FOOT on it and it will say enough enough"

reported by abu huraira(r).
i know hands metaphorically mean power but what does foot mean.
Ibn Taymiya and the likes were literalists and hence gave a body to Allah(S) but i would like to know, lets say this hadith is sahih then how would you interpret it?

scholars only please.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
05-21-2005, 12:20 AM
:sl: brother,
Threads merged. This is the discussion where we already discussed this topic.

And accusations against Ibn Taymiyyah have been cleared here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/showthread.php?t=1842

The main point is that we are not supposed to imagine possible meanings for such words. Allah swt says He has something, so we affirm it, and leave it at that. Allah swt knows best what it means, but we know that whatever the case, the Qur'an tells us:

42:11 There is nothing like unto Him

:w:
Reply

syed hasnain RN
05-22-2005, 01:13 AM
i have posted twice but to no avail. by clicking on 'post reply' please explain the process as i'm using 'quick reply' to communicate.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
05-22-2005, 02:00 AM
:sl:
maybe you should try reading the FAQ if you're new to using forums.

When you click post reply, you type in the box and then you click submit. Perhaps the server was down when you were trying to reply.

:w:
Reply

جوري
04-04-2008, 07:18 PM
Great thread... sad to see Br. Kadafi go..

:w:
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