Survey in run-up to 7/7

[glo]

A "significant minority" of Muslims in Britain believe the July 7 suicide bombers are martyrs, a survey has found.

The poll for ITV News and The Times, carried out in the run-up to the 7/7 anniversary, indicates that the Muslim community in the UK appears to be sharply-divided over terrorism and security.

Of the 1,131 Muslims surveyed, 56 per cent said the Government is not doing enough to fight extremism - more than the 49 per cent for the population as a whole.

But, a significant minority, 13 per cent, believe the 7/7 bombers should be regarded as "martyrs". And 7 per cent felt suicide attacks on UK civilians could be justified in some circumstances. This rose to 16 per cent for a military target.

Of those polled, 16 per cent said the attacks by four suicide bombers on the London Underground and a double-decker bus were wrong but the cause was right.

And a similar number said they would be "indifferent" if a family member joined al-Qaeda while 2 per cent said they would actually be proud.

But half of those polled thought intelligence services have the right to infiltrate Muslim organisations to gather information about their activities. Two-in-three - 65 per cent - said their community needed to integrate better into British society.

Meanwhile, more than a third, 35 per cent, said that they would feel proud if a close family member joined the police force.
(From http://uk.news.yahoo.com/04072006/35...-martyrs.html)

I quite liked this article, because it seemed well balanced in how it asked and presented the poll results. (With exception of the somewhat weighted and misleading headline :mmokay: )

Do these results surprise you? If so, which ones?

peace.

[muslim_friend]

Thanks.I wanted to know about this..

16 per cent said the attacks by four suicide bombers on the London Underground and a double-decker bus were wrong but the cause was right.

I didn't quite get that.. :rollseyes can you explain?

But half of those polled thought intelligence services have the right to infiltrate Muslim organisations to gather information about their activities.

I doubt if that was the truth. Why would the muslims there want to get harassed?

Two-in-three - 65 per cent - said their community needed to integrate better into British society.

i feel muslims are losing their pride..

[glo]

Quote:
16 per cent said the attacks by four suicide bombers on the London Underground and a double-decker bus were wrong but the cause was right.
I didn't quite get that.. can you explain?

No, I'm not sure what is meant by that, either. I'm not sure I know what the suicide bombers decalred the cause for their action to be ... was it the UK's involvement in the Iraq war? :?

Quote:
But half of those polled thought intelligence services have the right to infiltrate Muslim organisations to gather information about their activities.

I doubt if that was the truth. Why would the muslims there want to get harassed?

I don't know.

Quote:
Two-in-three - 65 per cent - said their community needed to integrate better into British society.

i feel muslims are losing their pride..

Why? I guess it depends on what you mean by 'integrating into the community'.
I would interpret it as mixing and interacting with other members of the wider community, taking part in community activities (as long as they are halaal), etc.
I think you can do these things without loosing your own identity or indeed loosing your moral and religious values ... :)

peace.

[Sis786]

Meanwhile, more than a third, 35 per cent, said that they would feel proud if a close family member joined the police force.

Do these results surprise you? If so, which ones?


peace.

THIS ONE IS THE SHOCKER :offended:

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[HeiGou]

THIS ONE IS THE SHOCKER :offended:

I agree totally. Nearly two thirds of Muslim British people hate Britain so much? Wow.

[Asyur an-Nagi]

I agree totally. Nearly two thirds of Muslim British people hate Britain so much? Wow.

any statistic about how many British non muslim hate Britain?

[HeiGou]

any statistic about how many British non muslim hate Britain?

Not that I know of. I think it would be good to collect some data and do a comparison.

[Sis786]

I agree totally. Nearly two thirds of Muslim British people hate Britain so much? Wow.

Dont believe that for a second! Muslims love it here we get all sorts of benefits and can blag our way through a application form for benefits and the council house ....oh yes we love our free houses!

NAH serious i think thats complete nonsense Muslims do love it here!

[muslim_friend]

Why? I guess it depends on what you mean by 'integrating into the community'.
I would interpret it as mixing and interacting with other members of the wider community, taking part in community activities (as long as they are halaal), etc.
I think you can do these things without loosing your own identity or indeed loosing your moral and religious values ... :)

What i mean by 'integrating into the community' is adopting the trends and lifestyle of that particular community.. I think this is a good definition of that phrase.. the Netherlands wants it's muslims to 'integrate into its community', and the first thing they got done is introduce a new 'hip' and 'trendy' hijab.. whereas the very purpose of hijab is to protect the woman's chastity and not to draw attention.

It's very possible that by integrating into a non muslim society, a muslim community loses its muslim way of life.. I do not live in Britain, so i do not know how much possible it would be to practice Islam without having any social elements getting in the way. Sadly, in America, as far as i know, muslims are throwing away their Islamic identity in fear of being ridiculed. These muslims have more concern about what the society thinks about them, and ignore what Allah would think about them. It looks the same in Britain... Though I hope it isn't.

[HeiGou]

NAH serious i think thats complete nonsense Muslims do love it here!

And yet two thirds of them would not be proud if their children gave something back to the community by joining the police.

That is very sad.

[glo]

What i mean by 'integrating into the community' is adopting the trends and lifestyle of that particular community.. I think this is a good definition of that phrase.. the Netherlands wants it's muslims to 'integrate into its community', and the first thing they got done is introduce a new 'hip' and 'trendy' hijab.. whereas the very purpose of hijab is to protect the woman's chastity and not to draw attention.

It's very possible that by integrating into a non muslim society, a muslim community loses its muslim way of life.. I do not live in Britain, so i do not know how much possible it would be to practice Islam without having any social elements getting in the way. Sadly, in America, as far as i know, muslims are throwing away their Islamic identity in fear of being ridiculed. These muslims have more concern about what the society thinks about them, and ignore what Allah would think about them. It looks the same in Britain... Though I hope it isn't.

I know what you are saying and I understand your concern.

But our Western society gets criticised for 'not understanding the Islamic way' ... but how can we understand it, if it keeps itself so hidden from our sight??? We will not learn about the faith and way of life of our Muslim neighbours, unless they are prepared to come out of their houses, and share their lives with us! It is not enough to debate this in theory and to publish books and articles on this issue - it needs human contact between two groups of people.

I think greater efforts have to made to create greater understanding between the two cultures. It need both our cultures to be willing to try. And we should never give up trying! :)

Peace.

[iLL_LeaT]

I know what you are saying and I understand your concern.

But our Western society gets criticised for 'not understanding the Islamic way' ... but how can we understand it, if it keeps itself so hidden from our sight??? We will not learn about the faith and way of life of our Muslim neighbours, unless they are prepared to come out of their houses, and share their lives with us! It is not enough to debate this in theory and to publish books and articles on this issue - it needs human contact between two groups of people.

I think greater efforts have to made to create greater understanding between the two cultures. It need both our cultures to be willing to try. And we should never give up trying! :)

Peace.

Mandatory comparative religion classes in public schools would educate people. I got educated by a college comparative religion course. But, as of now, I don’t think such classes are even a possibility in public high schools here in the States.

[muslim_friend]

But our Western society gets criticised for 'not understanding the Islamic way' ... but how can we understand it, if it keeps itself so hidden from our sight??? We will not learn about the faith and way of life of our Muslim neighbours, unless they are prepared to come out of their houses, and share their lives with us!

I see, so this your idea of 'integrating into society'.:) ..Hmmmmmmm... well said, I suppose that would be the only way to integrate. I know your'e talking about 'human contact'.. But may i ask how exactly we can go about the integration process?.. :rollseyes ...

I think greater efforts have to made to create greater understanding between the two cultures. It need both our cultures to be willing to try. And we should never give up trying! :)

Peace.

Nice post.. That was very encouraging.

[Sis786]

And yet two thirds of them would not be proud if their children gave something back to the community by joining the police.

That is very sad.

:giggling: You have to keep face!;D

[j4763]

Mandatory comparative religion classes in public schools would educate people. I got educated by a college comparative religion course. But, as of now, I don’t think such classes are even a possibility in public high schools here in the States.

Here in the UK we do have RE lessons (religious educations) in all schools between the ages 12-16 but many if not all Muslims are excused from these lessons by there parents.

Shame imo, its not like they have to practice what there learning.

[glo]

But may i ask how exactly we can go about the integration process?.. :rollseyes ...

I know policy makers and politicians have thoughts and ideas about this ...
But I am talking about people taking action at their individual levels, in their local communities.

How exactly, people have to decide for themselves.

Does the local school have a summer fair? - Why not get some Muslim friends together and have a stall with food typical to your culture.

Become a school governor ... you'd be able to speak for the needs of the Muslims pupils.

Have an open day in your mosque ... as I know happened recently in some areas.

Get your imam to meet with leaders of other faiths.

Speak to your local library to see if they can purchase books more suitable or relevant to the Muslim population.

Encourage your children to make friends with non-Muslim children.

Or, very simply, just say hello to your non-Muslim neighbours. (My own interest in Islam started, when a Muslim neighbour brought small Christmas presents for our children! I was so surprised, that I decided to bake her some Christmas biscuits ... and had to find out what food was halaal...)

I dunno ... these are just a few things that come into my head.:?

Peace.

[iLL_LeaT]

Here in the UK we do have RE lessons (religious educations) in all schools between the ages 12-16 but many if not all Muslims are excused from these lessons by there parents.

Shame imo, its not like they have to practice what there learning.

I wonder why. The second largest religion in the world is being excluded from religion classes? There must be some reason.

Islam is a very attractive religion. I wonder if the UK government realizes this and feels that if there are less people fallowing the Islamic ideology, it would keep people from misinterpreting the Quran and becoming a militant activist/terrorist.

Note: Completely Speculation

[Fishman]

:sl:
They don't actually teach religion properly in RE. Instead of going over the basics first they start at something in the middle. My first secondary school lesson about Islam was about Hajj, not the Muslim creed.
:w:

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

And yet two thirds of them would not be proud if their children gave something back to the community by joining the police.

That is very sad.

Maybe because the police shoot innocent Muslims?
Oh but wait.... it was for a good cause.

[Geronimo]

We have no such thing here in the US. Unless you go to a private school that receives no federal funding teaching on any religion is strictly prohibited.

[Geronimo]

Maybe because the police shoot innocent Muslims?
Oh but wait.... it was for a good cause.

Wouldn't it less likely happen if more muslims were cops?

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Those police men were following orders. So no.

[Geronimo]

Those police men were following orders. So no.

They were ordered to shoot innocent people?

[Muezzin]

Heh, I read that article yesterday at work, glo. It made me chuckle how paranoid people are going to get over the dreaded 13 percent - DUM DUM DUM!

It also made me sad that 13 percent of the Muslims involved in the survey think how they do. Unless, of course, they were pulling the surveyor's leg and/or otherwise having a laugh.

[glo]

Heh, I read that article yesterday at work, glo. It made me chuckle how paranoid people are going to get over the dreaded 13 percent - DUM DUM DUM!

13 per cent, believe the 7/7 bombers should be regarded as "martyrs".

Do you mean non-Muslims are getting paranoid about it?
I dunno, Muezzin. I live in a community with a sizeable minority of Muslims. If I knew that 13 out of 100 of my Muslim neighbours felt so sympathetic towards the 7/7 bombers, I would be worried too! Wouldn't you?

Unless, of course, they were pulling the surveyor's leg and/or otherwise having a laugh.

Well, that's always the danger with surveys. Let's hope that ITV News and The Times know how to conduct a fairly reliable survey.

Are you surprised to hear that 13% should feel that way?

Peace.

[HeiGou]

Maybe because the police shoot innocent Muslims?
Oh but wait.... it was for a good cause.

One innocent Muslim. One police man. That is like saying all Muslims blow up buses.

And it was for a good cause. Or perhaps you think the cause, defeating terrorism and protecting innocent lives, is not a good one?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Two-in-three - 65 per cent - said their community needed to integrate better into British society.

integrating into the british society implies what exactly? What is meant by this?

[glo]

integrating into the british society implies what exactly? What is meant by this?

That's what muslim-friend and I were wondering earlier in this thread.
We both seemed to have different interpretations of the term 'integration'.

It would be helpful to know, how it was defined for the sake of this survey ...

[IbnAbdulHakim]

as long as we're not asked to change our religion in any way then its ok. Your idea of integration sounds a lot like preaching and coming to common terms, i think thats a brilliant idea "IF" thats what is meant :)

[Muezzin]

Do you mean non-Muslims are getting paranoid about it?
I dunno, Muezzin. I live in a community with a sizeable minority of Muslims. If I knew that 13 out of 100 of my Muslim neighbours felt so sympathetic towards the 7/7 bombers, I would be worried too! Wouldn't you?

Yep. Though I personally just steer clear of these kind of erm... aggressive members of society.

Well, that's always the danger with surveys. Let's hope that ITV News and The Times know how to conduct a fairly reliable survey.

Are you surprised to hear that 13% should feel that way?

Peace.

Indeed. That's why I said it makes me sad to hear it.

[muslim_friend]

I know policy makers and politicians have thoughts and ideas about this ...
But I am talking about people taking action at their individual levels, in their local communities.
--------
I dunno ... these are just a few things that come into my head.:?

Well and fine. But it also looks like many people in Britain do not want the Muslims into their community. I think many Britishers want muslims segregated, as is happening to the Asian community right now.

Someone in the Guardian referred to Islam as a "death cult", the day after the 7/7 attacks. If that is the kind of attitude, when and how will there be mututal understanding? I think the British non-muslim community have got to flush out these hate-mongers as well. Such editorials or propaganda which are the key sources of info to many people, will only brainwash them more and more and the good points that you suggested will only prove a waste.. It's kinda like bailing out water from a flooded house.. whereas the water just keeps coming in.

[Woodrow]

And yet two thirds of them would not be proud if their children gave something back to the community by joining the police.

That is very sad.

Looking at it in that light it might sound as if means that. I would suspect tho that the percentage would not be much different if the question were asked to Native Brits. Keep in mind being a Police Officer is not the career of choice many parents would select for their children. Most parents tend to think of careers to be proud of are things like Doctors, Lawyers, Scientists etc. Many people have a connontation of Police Officer being on the same level as unskilled labor.

[glo]

Well and fine. But it also looks like many people in Britain do not want the Muslims into their community. I think many Britishers want muslims segregated, as is happening to the Asian community right now.

Someone in the Guardian referred to Islam as a "death cult", the day after the 7/7 attacks. If that is the kind of attitude, when and how will there be mututal understanding? I think the British non-muslim community have got to flush out these hate-mongers as well. Such editorials or propaganda which are the key sources of info to many people, will only brainwash them more and more and the good points that you suggested will only prove a waste.. It's kinda like bailing out water from a flooded house.. whereas the water just keeps coming in.

Of course this has to be a two-sided approach!

I think greater efforts have to made to create greater understanding between the two cultures. It need both our cultures to be willing to try. And we should never give up trying!

What I mean is that it's not enough to wait for religious and political leaders to deal with these matters.

We all have the responsility as individuals to 'do our bit' to reduce the gap between the cultures.
That doesn't mean either of us should have to give up our values or lifestyle requirements - but that we learn to accept them!
(If I learn to accept that Muslimahs wearing headscarves does not mean that they are oppressed, can you learn to accept that non-Muslims women not wearing headscarves does not make them loose women of low moral standards? You may find this silly, but that's the level of perception of each other's culture I speak about)

If we all drip-drip-drip away at the stereotypes within ourselves, we will eventually change society. I strongly believe that! Do you?

peace

[HeiGou]

Someone in the Guardian referred to Islam as a "death cult", the day after the 7/7 attacks. If that is the kind of attitude, when and how will there be mututal understanding?

Well you have to see how that looks from the perspective of a non-Muslim. Look at the avatars and so on of the people who post here. They show, from a non-Muslim point of view, an odd obsession with death. People claim, often and without any sign of radicalism, that they are in a prison, that for the Believer this world is passing and death is the goal and so on. What does, by the way, in the heart of a green bird mean exactly? It would be rude to put it the way you claim the Guardian did - and do you have a source by the way as I find it hard to believe that the PC Guardian did any such thing - but surely you can see how that looks from the outside?

I think the British non-muslim community have got to flush out these hate-mongers as well.

I think that equating someone who says Islam is obsessed with death with someone who straps a bomb to himself and blows himself up on the Tube is inherently offensive. It equates the deaths of 52 people and the maiming of over 700 with some hurt feelings. I can only assume that a dislike of the community that produced the victims and a single-minded one-sided focus on the community that had the hurt feelings can result in such claims - in other words you are weighing up death and maimed kafirs with insulted Muslims and not coming to the conclusion the dead kafirs are the real problem. Would that be a fair summary of your views?

Such editorials or propaganda which are the key sources of info to many people, will only brainwash them more and more and the good points that you suggested will only prove a waste.. It's kinda like bailing out water from a flooded house.. whereas the water just keeps coming in.

And where were the bombers brainwashed and by what and what has the British Muslim community done about it recently?

[Sis786]

And where were the bombers brainwashed and by what and what has the British Muslim community done about it recently?

The Muslim community has said that they dont support this and i think they have done thier best. I know the Mosques in Birmingham have held talks! Now the Muslim community cannot control what people learn on the Net and other places.

I think recentally the pressure has been applied to the "Community" for goodness sakes what do they want them to do. They hold talks and try to put the right message accross. And if 4 boys never listened and did thier own thing on 7/7 is that the fault of the Community?

To resolve this problem what needs to be done is that the Uk Goverment need to stop lying to the public come open about its policies. They need to accept that the on going wars abroad are affecting the Muslims here.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

One innocent Muslim. One police man. That is like saying all Muslims blow up buses.

And it was for a good cause. Or perhaps you think the cause, defeating terrorism and protecting innocent lives, is not a good one?

De ja vous. We've been here before, haven't we? I don't think it's going to get anywhere this time either.

[HeiGou]

The Muslim community has said that they dont support this and i think they have done thier best. I know the Mosques in Birmingham have held talks! Now the Muslim community cannot control what people learn on the Net and other places.

I agree that some leaders of most Muslim communities have said they do not support the suicide bombings. In London. I don't think they have done their best. They could have been more understanding after the Forest Gate raid. They could have said they regreted the shooting, but they understood the need to combat terrorism. Did they do that? Did they help the police deal with the terror threat in any way or have they just been obstructive? I can post comments by the Pope regarding terrorism in Ireland if you like. Has any Muslim community leader ever come out with something similar?

I think recentally the pressure has been applied to the "Community" for goodness sakes what do they want them to do. They hold talks and try to put the right message accross. And if 4 boys never listened and did thier own thing on 7/7 is that the fault of the Community?

Well yes. Those boys were not born terrorists. Somewhere along the way they learnt that this was Islamic and what God wanted. Where did they do that? Certainly not on the BBC or reading the Independent. They seem to have met at the Stratford Street Mosque and the Hamara Healthy Living Centre in Beeston. Christians did not run those two institutions. I am not saying that all Muslims are to blame, but somewhere along the line someone failed to explain properly to these boys what was Islamic and what was not. It is NOT that they did not listen or that they did their own thing. They were active members of the Muslim community.

To resolve this problem what needs to be done is that the Uk Goverment need to stop lying to the public come open about its policies. They need to accept that the on going wars abroad are affecting the Muslims here.

I don't accept that as the solution. In fact I think it is the problem. I think it is proof your claim about the Muslims doing the right thing is wrong. You are inciting hatred against the British government and hence encouraging more bombings. Where is the evidence that the British government has lied? Where is the evidence that wars abroad in any way affect British Muslims in a meaningful way? I will agree that someone told those four British Muslims, none of whom were of Iraqi, Palestinian, or Afghan descent, that the wars overseas hurt them, but only in an abstract sense. Not in any direct way. Somewhere you too have learnt to claim that the British government is lying. Somewhere you have learnt to shift the blame for the bombings from the young men who did it, to the British government which is simply pursuing British interests and British foreign policy - as stupid as you might think that policy is. The next step is an obvious one - punish the British public for voting that government into power. Now I do not doubt that you will disclaim all responsibility for the inevitable consequences of your actions - after all the bombings are my fault not Muhamed Siddiq Khan's - but why would you think any non-Muslim would agree with that?

[Sis786]

I agree that some leaders of most Muslim communities have said they do not support the suicide bombings. In London. I don't think they have done their best. They could have been more understanding after the Forest Gate raid. They could have said they regreted the shooting, but they understood the need to combat terrorism. Did they do that? Did they help the police deal with the terror threat in any way or have they just been obstructive? I can post comments by the Pope regarding terrorism in Ireland if you like. Has any Muslim community leader ever come out with something similar?

Like i said before i think that the Community leaders have tried but they too are restricted. Did you hear of the Peace and Unity Event in London Dec 2005, Over 25,000.00 muslims came and the whole event was based on the correct concept of Peace in Islam

Yet the speakers who included Labour MPS, George Galloway, Yvonne Riddley and Imran Khan, stated that the Goverment needs to do more. And that there is a major connection with the policies abroad and the terroism threat in the UK.

I mean im sure you seen the tape of Siddiq Khan before 7/7 HE said that the killings abroad have made him depressed and hurt. No young boys wanna go and get on a train and kill themselves and others. These boys had a lot to live for they had children, work and family.

The Goverement need to accept that there is a problem in the UK and the young Muslims are affetced by the war in Afghan and Iraq and the situation in Palestine. They need to look "WHY" did these Boys do this instead of looking at someone or something to blame.

Well yes. Those boys were not born terrorists. Somewhere along the way they learnt that this was Islamic and what God wanted.

When you are upset and retsricted and hurt you are easily led!

Where is the evidence that the British government has lied?

Dont make me laugh!!

Where is the evidence that wars abroad in any way affect British Muslims in a meaningful way?

This is where most are blind!

[Geronimo]

How are you restricted?

[Sis786]

How are you restricted?

Well one example would be that our arses can be blown off if we open the door to the police and how about NOT talking about those people in Palestine and Iraq that are defending themselves from the evils of the west (New terroism laws)

Most of it has to do with the freedom of talking about Palestine and Iraq and other countries where the policies of the west are killing innocents.

[Geronimo]

Well one example would be that our arses can be blown off if we open the door to the police and how about NOT talking about those people in Palestine and Iraq that are defending themselves from the evils of the west (New terroism laws)

Most of it has to do with the freedom of talking about Palestine and Iraq and other countries where the policies of the west are killing innocents.

Besides the 2 accidents how many doors have the British police kicked down and how many people have they blasted? I doubt Dr. Hook was talking about freedom and peace:rollseyes

[Sis786]

Besides the 2 accidents how many doors have the British police kicked down and how many people have they blasted? I doubt Dr. Hook was talking about freedom and peace:rollseyes

Well in my area and that i know of i know that almost 35 homes were raided. Some people were treated really nasty by the Police and some guys did say that thety were phyiscally abused.

As for "Doctor Hook" who i presume is Abu Hamza i dont agree with him and you cant say that his comments reflect all of the Muslims would be like saying Nick Griffths represents all White Britians!!

[Geronimo]

Well in my area and that i know of i know that almost 35 homes were raided. Some people were treated really nasty by the Police and some guys did say that thety were phyiscally abused.

As for "Doctor Hook" who i presume is Abu Hamza i dont agree with him and you cant say that his comments reflect all of the Muslims would be like saying Nick Griffths represents all White Britians!!

But do you think they would have been roughed up if the cops would have been muslim? Do you get the point I'm trying to make? As for ole Hook, the new terrorism laws are aimed at people just like him. Obviously non of the people that protested the Muhammed cartoons were arrested for having signs that said your 9/11 will come.

[Sis786]

But do you think they would have been roughed up if the cops would have been muslim? Do you get the point I'm trying to make? As for ole Hook, the new terrorism laws are aimed at people just like him. Obviously non of the people that protested the Muhammed cartoons were arrested for having signs that said your 9/11 will come.

I thought they were prosecuted for those billboards well my opinion that they TOTALLY stupid! and NO Way do they represent me and the majority of the Muslims.

As for the Terroism laws yes ok it does stop people like Abu Hamza but it also means that the topic of what is really happening in Palestine cannot be discussed,

Meaning i cannot say

[PIE]The Suicide Bombes in Palestine are right with what thier doing as they are being oppressed against and have no other means to defend [/PIE]

Now even the Prime Minsters wife once said that the Palestine people turn to suicide bombing as this is thier only defence (need to look this up but sure was right)

[Geronimo]

Encouragement of terrorism (Clause 1): Prohibits the publishing of "a statement that is likely to be understood by some or all of the members of the public to whom it is published as a direct or indirect encouragement or other inducement to them to the commission, preparation or instigation of acts of terrorism or Convention offences." Indirect encouragement statements include every statement which glorifies the commission or preparation (whether in the past, in the future or generally) of such acts or offences; and is a statement from which those members of the public could reasonably be expected to infer that what is being glorified is being glorified as conduct that should be emulated by them in existing circumstances."[1]. The maximum penalty is seven years' imprisonment.
Disseminating terrorist publications (Clause 2): Prohibits the passing on of a publication which encourages terrorism. The maximum penalty is seven years' imprisonment.
Preparation of terrorist acts (Clause 5): Prohibits anyone from engaging in any conduct in preparation for an intended act of terrorism. The maximum penalty is life imprisonment.
Training for terrorism (Clause 6): Prohibits anyone from training others in terrorist activities, or from receiving training. The maximum penalty is 10 years' imprisonment.
Attendance at a place used for terrorist training (Clause 8): Prohibits anyone from being at a place where training is going on (whether in the United Kingdom or abroad), provided the person knew or reasonably believed that it was happening. The maximum penalty is 10 years' imprisonment.
Making and possession of devices or materials (Clause 9): Prohibits the making or possession of any radioactive device (ie a dirty bomb). The maximum penalty is life imprisonment.
Misuse of devices or material and misuse and damage of facilities (Clause 10): Prohibits using radioactive materials or a radioactive device in a terrorist attack, and the sabotage of nuclear facilities which causes a radioactive leak. The maximum penalty is life imprisonment.
Terrorist threats relating to devices, materials or facilities (Clause 11): Prohibits anyone from making threats to demand that they be given radioactive materials. The maximum penalty is life imprisonment.
Trespassing etc. on nuclear sites (Clause 12): Extends a previous ban on trespassing, imposed by the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005, to cover any nuclear site.

Show me where it say you can't make those comments? How it reads to me is that you can't publish or contain information that suggests to other people that they need to go out and kill others. Your comments indicates justification of actions the Pals take and not provocation. Under the law you should be safe. If this is not true then the jails would have been overflowing at those Muhammed rallies.

[Sis786]

Show me where it say you can't make those comments? How it reads to me is that you can't publish or contain information that suggests to other people that they need to go out and kill others. Your comments indicates justification of actions the Pals take and not provocation. Under the law you should be safe. If this is not true then the jails would have been overflowing at those Muhammed rallies.

The Law can be twisted its too open and thats where the controversy lies. With the above statement that i made i could be "Glorifying Terrorism" .


What were the other terror laws sticking points?

There was particular controversy over the creation of a new offence of the "glorification" of terror - people who "praise or celebrate" terrorism in a way that makes others think they should emulate such attacks. The then Home Secretary Charles Clarke said people should not, for example, be allowed to glorify the 7 July attacks, or the bombers themselves, as it could encourage impressionable young men to think they should commit similar atrocities.

What's the problem with that?

Critics say the laws are just not needed and will only damage legitimate freedom of speech. They claim the glorification offence could see the Irish taoiseach prosecuted in the UK for celebrating the Easter Rising. They also point out such laws could have led to people being arrested in the 1980s for supporting Nelson Mandela's fight against apartheid in South Africa. These claims were rejected by Mr Clarke, who told MPs such circumstances as the anti-apartheid movement would not happen again.

Isn't encouraging terrorism tackled by existing laws?

Opponents of the glorification clause say laws against incitement to murder or hatred cover many potential problems.

[HeiGou]

Like i said before i think that the Community leaders have tried but they too are restricted. Did you hear of the Peace and Unity Event in London Dec 2005, Over 25,000.00 muslims came and the whole event was based on the correct concept of Peace in Islam

I do not call that meaningful. Londoners are dying and you think throwing a party is an adequate response? Where is the co-operation with the police? Where is the denounciation of the Extremists and all who led those boys astray? When Pope John Paul II visited Ireland in 1979 he said,

On my knees I beg you to turn away from the paths of violence and to return to the ways of peace....Violence only delays the day of justice. ... Further violence in Ireland will only drag down to ruin the land you claim to love and the values you claim to cherish. In the name of God I beg you .... Peace cannot be established by violence, peace can never flourish in a climate of terror, intimidation and death. It is Jesus himself who said: "All who take the sword will perish by the sword" (Mt 26:52). This is the word of God, and it commands this generation of violent men to desist from hatred and violence and to repent... I procalim, with the conviction of my faith in Christ and with an awareness of my mission, that violence is evil, that violence is unacceptable as a solution to problems, that violence is unworthy of man. Violence is a lie, for it goes against the truth of our faith, the truth of our humanity. Violence destroys what it claims to defend - the dignity, the life of human beings. Violence is a crime against humanity, for it destroys the very fabric of society.

Now that is what I call a condemnation. Anything similar from the MCB?

Yet the speakers who included Labour MPS, George Galloway, Yvonne Riddley and Imran Khan, stated that the Goverment needs to do more.

So it was the usual hate-fest in other words. Know where I can get copies of their speeches on-line or in print? You see my point about not doing much about terror? George Galloway and Yvonne Ridley? Oh yes. I'd have liked to see Imran Khan.

And that there is a major connection with the policies abroad and the terroism threat in the UK.

Well Muslims may believe that, but that path is a dangerous path. Because the British have every right to pursue whatever foreign policy they see fit and they have every right to expect that every British person is going to support the government against foreigners even if they do not agree with those foreign policies. If the British Muslim community does not agree there will be problems. As I said, nothing here to suggest any serious effort to combat terrorism.

I mean im sure you seen the tape of Siddiq Khan before 7/7 HE said that the killings abroad have made him depressed and hurt. No young boys wanna go and get on a train and kill themselves and others. These boys had a lot to live for they had children, work and family.

What he said was,

I and thousands like me are forsaking everything for what we believe. Our drive and motivation doesn't come from tangible commodities that this world has to offer. Our religion is Islam, obedience to the one true God and following the footsteps of the final prophet messenger.

Your democratically elected governments continuously perpetuate atrocities against my people all over the world. And your support of them makes you directly responsible, just as I am directly responsible for protecting and avenging my Muslim brothers and sisters.

Until we feel security you will be our targets and until you stop the bombing, gassing, imprisonment and torture of my people we will not stop this fight. We are at war and I am a soldier. Now you too will taste the reality of this situation.

Clearly he did want to go and blow himself up and clearly he had more to die for than to live for. And clearly someone had taught him that blowing himself up was an appropriate response to that "oppression" and Heaven would be his reward. Who might that have been? I don't know (and the British Muslim communities have done little to find out) but I can guess his religion.

The Goverement need to accept that there is a problem in the UK and the young Muslims are affetced by the war in Afghan and Iraq and the situation in Palestine. They need to look "WHY" did these Boys do this instead of looking at someone or something to blame.

No. The British Muslim community has to accept that there is a problem in the British Muslim community and that young Muslims are affected by violent and dangerous teachings. The British Muslim community needs to look at why these boys did this instead of denying it was Muslims, blaming the kafirs and seeking to shift responsibility. The British government has done nothing wrong. Whatever the mistakes of British foreign policy it is the job of the British government to decide British foreign policy. It is the responsibility of the British community, Muslim or not, to accept that, obey the law and work to change things peacefully if they do not like them. The blame rests solely and entirely with the boys who did this, the people taught them this was right and the people who raised them with bad values. No one else.

When you are upset and retsricted and hurt you are easily led!

Someone taught them to be upset. Someone claimed they were restricted. Someone contributed to that climate of hatred and it was not me. Why are you continuing to do so?

Dont make me laugh!!

Got any evidence the Government lied?

This is where most are blind!

No shortage of that I am afraid.

[Sis786]

I do not call that meaningful. Londoners are dying and you think throwing a party is an adequate response? Where is the co-operation with the police? Where is the denounciation of the Extremists and all who led those boys astray?

It wasnt a party it was an event in which Muslims and Non-Muslims attened and the true meaning of Islam was discussed, It was you that was saying that the young are being misguided and this event was to put that right. The Scholars talked about Peace and the importance of that NOW more than ever. But you cant talk about Peace without talking about War!

So it was the usual hate-fest in other words. Know where I can get copies of their speeches on-line or in print? You see my point about not doing much about terror? George Galloway and Yvonne Ridley? Oh yes. I'd have liked to see Imran Khan.

George Galloway and Yvonne Ridley talked about War abroad , i mean you cant expeect this topic NOT to come up for goodness sakes you talking about Peace in the World. And thier views were heard some may not Agree but the Goverment was there and listening!

Well Muslims may believe that, but that path is a dangerous path. Because the British have every right to pursue whatever foreign policy they see fit and they have every right to expect that every British person is going to support the government against foreigners even if they do not agree with those foreign policies. If the British Muslim community does not agree there will be problems. As I said, nothing here to suggest any serious effort to combat terrorism.

No way do i support the killing of innocents!

Your democratically elected governments continuously perpetuate atrocities against my people all over the world. And your support of them makes you directly responsible, just as I am directly responsible for protecting and avenging my Muslim brothers and sisters.

This is what im on about. Many feel this but some learn that there are more democratic ways of delaing with this, But if the goverment ignore the Muslim community as they have done, carrying on with this SHOOT and kill policy then more will feel like Siddiq Khan.

No. The British Muslim community has to accept that there is a problem in the British Muslim community and that young Muslims are affected by violent and dangerous teachings.

I agree SO thats what the above event was about. The right meaning of Islam!

The British Muslim community needs to look at why these boys did this instead of denying it

The Goverment should also concentrate on this point!

blaming the kafirs and seeking to shift responsibility.

Blaming religion and that alone is also wrong!

The British government has done nothing wrong.

I will leave you to your opinion!

Whatever the mistakes of British foreign policy it is the job of the British government to decide British foreign policy. It is the responsibility of the British community, Muslim or not, to accept that, obey the law and work to change things peacefully if they do not like them.

Agreed. But this is easy said then done. Some Muslims feel that thier voices are not heard and the foriegn policies effect us and so we should have a say! Afterall our money is paying for it all!

The blame rests solely and entirely with the boys who did this, the people taught them this was right and the people who raised them with bad values. No one else.

If only the same could be said for the FOOTBALL hooligans OH NO they were pushed by the Germans to cause fights and so on. People arent born like this and NO PARENT wants thier child DEAD! This is the cause of frustration and wrong guidance!

Someone contributed to that climate of hatred and it was not me.

Was THE wars the killing of innocents! If Muslims consider the ummah thier family the killing in Iraq is the killing of a family member and that hurts!

Got any evidence the Government lied?

Will come back to you on that point im off now but will give you further details. But maybe WMD is ONE!

[muslim_friend]

Of course this has to be a two-sided approach!

Right.

We all have the responsility as individuals to 'do our bit' to reduce the gap between the cultures.
That doesn't mean either of us should have to give up our values or lifestyle requirements - but that we learn to accept them!
(If I learn to accept that Muslimahs wearing headscarves does not mean that they are oppressed, can you learn to accept that non-Muslims women not wearing headscarves does not make them loose women of low moral standards? You may find this silly, but that's the level of perception of each other's culture I speak about)

I feel that commenting on the moral of non-muslim women has nothing to do with 'integration', it's simply a matter of personal belief.. Sure, i find it silly. but anyway i'll agree to disagree on certain things. I'm sure we can work things out.. :thankyou:

If we all drip-drip-drip away at the stereotypes within ourselves, we will eventually change society. I strongly believe that! Do you?

For one reason, it has rarely happened when muslims were the minorities.. Wherever muslims are minorites, they have been oppressed like crazy, be it india or the philipines.. but there's no harm in trying..

Someone in the Guardian referred to Islam as a "death cult", the day after the 7/7 attacks. If that is the kind of attitude, when and how will there be mututal understanding?

Well you have to see how that looks from the perspective of a non-Muslim. Look at the avatars and so on of the people who post here. They show, from a non-Muslim point of view, an odd obsession with death. People claim, often and without any sign of radicalism, that they are in a prison, that for the Believer this world is passing and death is the goal and so on. What does, by the way, in the heart of a green bird mean exactly?

I'm sure the ones on the forum with these avatars would find it an honour to fight injustice, for the sake of Allah.. is there something wrong in fighting injustice?.. 'In the hearts of Green birds'>>When the believers die as martyrs, their souls are placed in the bodies of small green birds, and they are free to go about paradise wherever they like, until the Day of Judgement.. that's what it means.

It would be rude to put it the way you claim the Guardian did - and do you have a source by the way as I find it hard to believe that the PC Guardian did any such thing - but surely you can see how that looks from the outside?

Is it rude to point out a hurtful statement? I'll quote it exactly as i remember..."The Death Cult strikes again".. I do not have any source for the article, but i remember the writer's name.. Her name is Polly tonybee (a noted islamophobist).. Feel free, to look up it, if you don't believe me.

[glo]

Right.
I feel that commenting on the moral of non-muslim women has nothing to do with 'integration', it's simply a matter of personal belief.. Sure, i find it silly.

I feel it has everything to do with integration.
My point is that we shouldn't judge each other by our appearances and/or ways of life.
Muslims don't like it when non-Muslims assume their women to be oppressed; non-Muslim women don't like it when Muslims assume them to lack moral standards.
It's nothing to do with 'personal belief' ... it's to do with applying stereotypes.
We should get over those stereotypes, and start to see, learn about and respect the people behind them!

For one reason, it has rarely happened when muslims were the minorities.. Wherever muslims are minorites, they have been oppressed like crazy, be it india or the philipines.. but there's no harm in trying..

That's my point.
I don't see Muslims trying to change society. I see them keeping themselves to themselves, somehow expect secular society to miraculously change.
It's not going to happen like that!
People need to get to know each other, in order to understand each other, in order to respect each other, in order to learn from each other ...

Just my personal opinion, of course. I hope I'm not lecturing you. :rollseyes :X ;D

Peace.

[muslim_friend]

I feel it has everything to do with integration.My point is that we shouldn't judge each other by our appearances and/or ways of life.Muslims don't like it when non-Muslims assume their women to be oppressed; non-Muslim women don't like it when Muslims assume them to lack moral standards.

Let me correct you from a muslim perspective: Muslims do not mind being called "oppressors" etc, as long as such crazy opinions dont go public and receive a nation wide condemnation etc, LOL.. or worse if it leads to enforced harassment upon a muslim individual by the society. Who cares what people think in their hearts? As long as it doesn't affect us, there's nothing to bother about for us muslims, is there?

It's nothing to do with 'personal belief' ... it's to do with applying stereotypes.
We should get over those stereotypes, and start to see, learn about and respect the people behind them!

If i see someone today commiting a horrible sin, and if i speak against it, that wouldn't make me disrespectful..Muslims especially have an obligation to forbid wrong-doings, whether people like it or not. Now understand that, this must also be done with proper etiquette.. and not the "Oh! look at that immoral woman! may Allah send her to hell" attitude.. i find nothing wrong in criticising in a civil manner.. what say you?

That's my point.
I don't see Muslims trying to change society. I see them keeping themselves to themselves, somehow expect secular society to miraculously change.
It's not going to happen like that!

I just realised something. If this integration process has failed many times all over the world, then i suppose there must be a common reason for it.. Anyway, what you said is not just the attitude of muslims, but also that of non-muslims as well. the non-muslims i'm talking about here, are those who somehow expect peace to descend all of a sudden, and those who do not work towards it. So, as you said in your previous post, the effort must be 2 way.

Just my personal opinion, of course. I hope I'm not lecturing you. :rollseyes :X ;D

hehe.. no.. :grumbling

[glo]

hehe.. no.. :grumbling

I have feeling we are talking across each other rather than to each other. :rollseyes

Never mind, muslim-friend. I'm sure it's not vital, and I'm a bit tired for discussion right now. A bit like that: :uhwhat LOL

Peace.

[muslim_friend]

I have feeling we are talking across each other rather than to each other. :rollseyes

Never mind, muslim-friend. I'm sure it's not vital, and I'm a bit tired for discussion right now. A bit like that: :uhwhat LOL

hey, sorry! That wasn't meant to be offensive in anyway!.. :rollseyes .. yep, i'm tired of all this as well.. in fact, i'm so tired, i'm going to crash right now.. thanks for ur discussion.. :thankyou:

[glo]

hey, sorry! That wasn't meant to be offensive in anyway!.. :rollseyes .. yep, i'm tired of all this as well.. in fact, i'm so tired, i'm going to crash right now.. thanks for ur discussion.. :thankyou:

You are not offensive at all, islam-friend! Never fear! :thankyou:

peace.

[HeiGou]

I do not call that meaningful. Londoners are dying and you think throwing a party is an adequate response? Where is the co-operation with the police? Where is the denounciation of the Extremists and all who led those boys astray?

It wasnt a party it was an event in which Muslims and Non-Muslims attened and the true meaning of Islam was discussed, It was you that was saying that the young are being misguided and this event was to put that right. The Scholars talked about Peace and the importance of that NOW more than ever. But you cant talk about Peace without talking about War!

As I said, not a meaningful response. How does this event even come close to putting it right? If Muslim boys have the wrong idea about Islam there is no point reaching out to non-Muslims. You need to teach the young Muslim men not to do it. How did this event contribute to that? So the War in Iraq was talked about a lot was it? I expect that this event did more to encourage suicide bombing than otherwise.

So it was the usual hate-fest in other words. Know where I can get copies of their speeches on-line or in print? You see my point about not doing much about terror? George Galloway and Yvonne Ridley? Oh yes. I'd have liked to see Imran Khan.

George Galloway and Yvonne Ridley talked about War abroad , i mean you cant expeect this topic NOT to come up for goodness sakes you talking about Peace in the World. And thier views were heard some may not Agree but the Goverment was there and listening!

Sure, they blamed Britain, they excused the bombers. The usual thing. I can expect this to come up because it has nothing to do with the suicide bombing or why it was wrong. Or perhaps you think it was related? Where in Islam does it say suicide bombing is acceptable if Iraq is liberated?

Well Muslims may believe that, but that path is a dangerous path. Because the British have every right to pursue whatever foreign policy they see fit and they have every right to expect that every British person is going to support the government against foreigners even if they do not agree with those foreign policies. If the British Muslim community does not agree there will be problems. As I said, nothing here to suggest any serious effort to combat terrorism.

No way do i support the killing of innocents!

From where I sit that looks like a token condemnation. You are not exactly rushing to condemn Khan et al and you are insisting that it was the fault of the British government. As I said, no meaningful effort to combat terrorism.

Your democratically elected governments continuously perpetuate atrocities against my people all over the world. And your support of them makes you directly responsible, just as I am directly responsible for protecting and avenging my Muslim brothers and sisters.

This is what im on about. Many feel this but some learn that there are more democratic ways of delaing with this, But if the goverment ignore the Muslim community as they have done, carrying on with this SHOOT and kill policy then more will feel like Siddiq Khan.

This is what I am on about too. Many feel this because they have been taught this. Many Muslims that is. Your community's problem, not mine. How has the government ignored Muslims? Khan met *two* British Cabinet Ministers! There has never been a minority community that has been so listened to. His community centre got millions of pounds of government grants. How was he not listened to?

Or perhaps you think kafirs ought to jump to obey a Muslim no matter what? Perhaps you think "not listening" means "not obeying"?

No. The British Muslim community has to accept that there is a problem in the British Muslim community and that young Muslims are affected by violent and dangerous teachings.

I agree SO thats what the above event was about. The right meaning of Islam!

And you invite George Galloway and Yvonne Ridley! What can they teach you about the right meaning of Islam?

The British Muslim community needs to look at why these boys did this instead of denying it

The Goverment should also concentrate on this point!

Indeed. It should deport more Muslim preachers. Yet the British government has nothing like the problems of some Muslims - the father of one of the bombers is in the paper today denying his son was involved.

blaming the kafirs and seeking to shift responsibility.

Blaming religion and that alone is also wrong!

Totally. This is not a problem with Islam per se, or so I am told, it is a problem with a certain type of Islamic teaching. The problem is that there appears no way of telling one sort of Islamic teaching from the other until a boy goes and kills himself and dozens of others. How do you tell them apart?

Whatever the mistakes of British foreign policy it is the job of the British government to decide British foreign policy. It is the responsibility of the British community, Muslim or not, to accept that, obey the law and work to change things peacefully if they do not like them.

Agreed. But this is easy said then done. Some Muslims feel that thier voices are not heard and the foriegn policies effect us and so we should have a say! Afterall our money is paying for it all!

No it is not. It is the easiest thing in the world - just behave like normal human beings. What is hard is to teach someone to hate so much they will sit on a bus and blow themselves up just to hurt people they have never met and would probably like if they did. Muslims sit in Parliament. They sit in the House of Lords. Muslims can vote if they like. In what sense do they not have a say? What they are demanding is outrageous - that the 57 million non-Muslims ought to cave into the demands of the 4 million Muslims! How do British Foreign policies affect Pakistani-origin Muslims like Khan?

The blame rests solely and entirely with the boys who did this, the people taught them this was right and the people who raised them with bad values. No one else.

If only the same could be said for the FOOTBALL hooligans OH NO they were pushed by the Germans to cause fights and so on. People arent born like this and NO PARENT wants thier child DEAD! This is the cause of frustration and wrong guidance!

Yes indeed. But you should not try to change the subject. Terrorism is much worse than football hooliganism. How do you know no parent wants this? I can trivially find Muslims who says they do. Muhammed Atta's Father says he is proud of his son and wishes he had another who would do the same. I can find Palestinian Mothers who are proud. The wrong guidance is not *my* fault is it? It is a little closer to home don't you think?

Someone contributed to that climate of hatred and it was not me.

Was THE wars the killing of innocents! If Muslims consider the ummah thier family the killing in Iraq is the killing of a family member and that hurts!

Except wars have always existed but no suicide bombs. Iraqis kill each other in vastly larger numbers but no British Muslim raises a finger, much less a bomb vest, to prevent that. Muslims kill each other all over the world in vastly larger numbers than are killed by the West in Iraq but no one kills themselves over it. It is not the killing of innocents. If Muslims consider the Ummah as their family, the British will cease to regard British Muslims as their family. There is no relation between Iraqis and British Muslims except one created by the radicals.

[muslim_friend]

You are not offensive at all, islam-friend! Never fear! :thankyou:

Thanks.. it's 'muslim friend'.. :peace: ..lol.

[Sis786]

HeiGou You and Me Seem to go around in cricles!

I may be MORE openminded as i am a Muslim and therefore read between the lines but me being openminded does not mean i do not condemn terroism.

Whenever i see something on the news like this it makes me sick and i know that this is will be used as another blow at my religion.

The Peace and Unity Event was a chance for the young to attend an event where topics they care about and topics that effetc them will be discussed and not just sweeped under the carpet as they are done on the Stupid programmes that come on the TV.

The Peace and Unity Event was organised by the Islam Channel and the title emphasises what the whole event was about! Besides the ones i mentioned Lord Falcorner, The Met Police and others were there. You may think this was a useless party BUT you dont know what this was like, Yes Imran Khan went off a bit and used this event to clash with his rival Pervez Mushraf BUT that was his opinion and the Islam Channel made that clear.

I am not saying that Sidiq Khan and others were right thier intention Allah SWT knows alone, But what has happended has happended and NOW its time that we work togther to stop this from happening.

I remember when the pics of the Prophet Muhammed PBHU were drawn and the leader of the birmingham Central Mosque called for calm and told the young that this is something that we must defend BUT those banners in London were wrong (i agree) and that we should do this correctly and there should be no violence. And one Brother stood up in the crowd and started shouting back, he was saying that this is another dig at us (Muslims) and we have to put up with first being called "Terroist" and then our Religion is in the limelight of this all and then our Brothers and Sisters abroad are dying.

The point im trying to make is YES that the Islamic and genreal community leaders should do more BUT this cant be done if the Goverment dont also play thier part.

And HeiGou i dont mean by "Obeying" the public BUT by listening to thier views. I mean what was done about those "Spy Planes" which carried Muslims to Europe from America and tortured them. What was done about the Soliders that abused the Iraqi People, What is being doen about the way Israels are treating the palestine people,

First step is for the Muslim community to accept that there is a problem within the Muslim community and this should be dealt with BUT at the same time the Goverment need to accept that people dont just jump on buses and blow themselves up for the fun of it!!

[wilberhum]

Sis786,
WOW, your great. I just love it when I see someone talking good sense.
I see so much of the old, “But look what they did”, “its not our problem”, “it’s the media’s fault’, and of course “it didn’t happen’, or “they did it themselves”.
The first step in solving a problem is admitting there is a problem.
You have restored some hope.
Thank you,
Wilber

[Sis786]

Sis786,
WOW, your great. I just love it when I see someone talking good sense.
I see so much of the old, “But look what they did”, “its not our problem”, “it’s the media’s fault’, and of course “it didn’t happen’, or “they did it themselves”.
The first step in solving a problem is admitting there is a problem.
You have restored some hope.
Thank you,
Wilber

Cheers you made my day!:happy: