It appears as if deciet is allowed to save a sinner

[Isa Abdullah]

bismillah

Corinthians 9:20-22:

"To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law -- though not being myself under the law -- that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law -- not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ -- that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak."

Can any Christians comment on their opinion on this verse?

[Looking4Peace]

that sounds disturbing

[Phil12123]

bismillah

Corinthians 9:20-22:

"To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law -- though not being myself under the law -- that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law -- not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ -- that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak."

Can any Christians comment on their opinion on this verse?

One commentator said this: Though Paul looked on the ceremonial law as a yoke taken off by Christ, yet he submitted to it, that he might work upon the Jews, do away their prejudices, prevail with them to hear the gospel, and win them over to Christ. Though he would transgress no laws of Christ, to please any man, yet he would accommodate himself to all men, where he might do it lawfully, to gain some.

Another commentator said this: Paul speaks about the method of his ministry, which was to become all things to all men. This is not a case of being hypocritically one thing to one man and another to another. It Is a matter in the modern phrase, of being able to get alongside anyone. The man who can never see anything but his own point of view and who never makes any attempt to understand the mind and heart of others, will never make a pastor or an evangelist or even a friend.

Boswell somewhere speaks of "the art of accommodating oneself to others." That was an art which Dr. Johnson possessed in a supreme degree, for, not only was he a great talker, but he was also a great listener with a supreme ability to get alongside any man. A friend said of him that he had the art of "leading people to talk on their favourite subjects, and on what they knew best." Once a country clergyman complained to Mrs. Thrale's mother of the dullness of his people. "They talk of runts" (young cows), he said bitterly. "Sir," said the old lady, "Mr. Johnson would have learned to talk of runts." To the countryman he would have become a countryman. Robert Lynd points out how Johnson would discuss the digestive apparatus of a dog with a country parson; how he talked dancing with. a dancing master; how he talked on farm management, thatching, the process of malting, the manufacture of gunpowder, the art of tanning. He talks of Johnson's "readiness to throw himself into the interests of other people.

He was a man who would have enjoyed discussing the manufacture of spectacles with a spectacle-maker, law with a lawyer, pigs with a pig-breeder, diseases with a doctor, or ships with a ship-builder. He knew that in conversation it is only more blessed to give than to receive."

We can never attain to any kind of evangelism or friendship without speaking the same language and thinking the same thoughts as the other man. Someone once described teaching, medicine and the ministry as "the three patronizing professions." So long as we patronize people and make no effort to understand them, we can never get anywhere with them. Paul, the master missionary, who won more men for Christ than any other man, saw how essential it was to become all things to all men. One of our greatest necessities is to learn the art of getting alongside people; and the trouble so often is that we do not even try. [End of commentaries]

Peace

[MRR]

that sounds disturbing

No more disturbing than islam teachings that allow for muslims to deceive/lie. It is well known that this is allowed.

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[Umar001]

Hi MRR

No more disturbing than islam teachings that allow for muslims to deceive/lie. It is well known that this is allowed.

Not in promugating Religion.

If you have proof that Islam teaches that one can lie in order to present his religion or himself to someone so they accept his religion then please provide it for us and I am sure your comment will be entertained.

Peace be upon those who follow guidance

[Isa Abdullah]

No more disturbing than islam teachings that allow for muslims to deceive/lie. It is well known that this is allowed.

bismillah

Greetings,

Your comment holds no ground, MRR. Islam demands proof. So if you can show reference to back you up from hadith and Qur'an please refrain from your comments. I began this topic for our Christian brothers and sisters to comment on and give their opinion and not to judge the verse by my own rationale.

Allaah (God) tells humanity in the Qur'an explicitly, (translation of the meaning:)


"And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is). "

2.42


And say: "Truth has (now) arrived, and falsehood perished: for falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish."

17.81

"Who doth greater wrong than one who invents falsehood against Allah, even as he is being invited to Islam? And Allah guides not those who do wrong."

61.7

Now lets refer to the Blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace & blessings be upon him:)

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Amr: The Prophet said, "Whoever has the following four (characteristics) will be a pure hypocrite and whoever has one of the following four characteristics will have one characteristic of hypocrisy unless and until he gives it up. 1. Whenever he is entrusted, he betrays. 2. Whenever he speaks, he tells a lie. 3. Whenever he makes a covenant, he proves treacherous. 4. Whenever he quarrels, he behaves in a very imprudent, evil and insulting manner." (Bukhari)

Truth is the essence of Islam.

[Isa Abdullah]

One commentator said this: Though Paul looked on the ceremonial law as a yoke taken off by Christ, yet he submitted to it, that he might work upon the Jews, do away their prejudices, prevail with them to hear the gospel, and win them over to Christ. Though he would transgress no laws of Christ, to please any man, yet he would accommodate himself to all men, where he might do it lawfully, to gain some.

Another commentator said this: Paul speaks about the method of his ministry, which was to become all things to all men. This is not a case of being hypocritically one thing to one man and another to another. It Is a matter in the modern phrase, of being able to get alongside anyone. The man who can never see anything but his own point of view and who never makes any attempt to understand the mind and heart of others, will never make a pastor or an evangelist or even a friend.

Boswell somewhere speaks of "the art of accommodating oneself to others." That was an art which Dr. Johnson possessed in a supreme degree, for, not only was he a great talker, but he was also a great listener with a supreme ability to get alongside any man. A friend said of him that he had the art of "leading people to talk on their favourite subjects, and on what they knew best." Once a country clergyman complained to Mrs. Thrale's mother of the dullness of his people. "They talk of runts" (young cows), he said bitterly. "Sir," said the old lady, "Mr. Johnson would have learned to talk of runts." To the countryman he would have become a countryman. Robert Lynd points out how Johnson would discuss the digestive apparatus of a dog with a country parson; how he talked dancing with. a dancing master; how he talked on farm management, thatching, the process of malting, the manufacture of gunpowder, the art of tanning. He talks of Johnson's "readiness to throw himself into the interests of other people.

He was a man who would have enjoyed discussing the manufacture of spectacles with a spectacle-maker, law with a lawyer, pigs with a pig-breeder, diseases with a doctor, or ships with a ship-builder. He knew that in conversation it is only more blessed to give than to receive."

We can never attain to any kind of evangelism or friendship without speaking the same language and thinking the same thoughts as the other man. Someone once described teaching, medicine and the ministry as "the three patronizing professions." So long as we patronize people and make no effort to understand them, we can never get anywhere with them. Paul, the master missionary, who won more men for Christ than any other man, saw how essential it was to become all things to all men. One of our greatest necessities is to learn the art of getting alongside people; and the trouble so often is that we do not even try. [End of commentaries]

Peace

bismillah

Greetings, Phil.

Thanks for the post.

To think like others that do not think like ourselves is indeed commendable.

Romans 3:7: "For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?"

Philippians 1:18: "In every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Jesus is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice."

I assume that to gain a convert, one may follow the way of Paul since he was the master evangelist?

[Phil12123]

Romans 3:7: "For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?"

It is not clear when I read the above verse what Paul meant by "my lie" but perhaps the following, taken from the Living Bible, which is more of a paraphrase than a word-for-word translation, makes is clearer. I will give you the greater context of verse 7 by showing the entire first 10 verses of Romans 3:

1. Then what's the use of being a Jew? Are there any special benefits for them from God? Is there any value in the Jewish circumcision ceremony?
2. Yes, being a Jew has many advantages.First of all, God trusted them with his laws [so that they could know and do his will ].
3. True, some of them were unfaithful, but just because they broke their promises to God, does that mean God will break his promises?
4. Of course not! Though everyone else in the world is a liar, God is not. Do you remember what the book of Psalms says about this? That God's words will always prove true and right, no matter who questions them.
5. ``But,'' some say, ``our breaking faith with God is good, our sins serve a good purpose, for people will notice how good God is when they see how bad we are. Is it fair, then, for him to punish us when our sins are helping him?'' (That is the way some people talk.)
6. God forbid! Then what kind of God would he be, to overlook sin? How could he ever condemn anyone?
7. For he could not judge and condemn me as a sinner if my dishonesty brought him glory by pointing up his honesty in contrast to my lies.
8. If you follow through with that idea you come to this: the worse we are, the better God likes it! But the damnation of those who say such things is just. Yet some claim that this is what I preach!
9. Well, then, are we Jews better than others? No, not at all, for we have already shown that all men alike are sinners, whether Jews or Gentiles.
10. As the Scriptures say,``No one is good--no one in all the world is innocent.''

Philippians 1:18: "In every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Jesus is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice."

The above verse, writen by Paul in one of his prison letters, was talking about certain individuals, who were proclaiming Jesus, some with improper motives or methods ("in pretense"), others properly ("in truth"). He is not saying he rejoices that some used pretense in their proclamation. Rather, he rejoices that Jesus is proclaimed. There is a difference. For example, I could be a wicked sinner whose heart is far from God, standing in a pulpit, proclaiming the Gospel message of how Jesus died for sinners and rose again. That Gospel message can still save sinners who respond positively to it, regardless of my wicked heart. The rejoicing is over the proclamation of TRUTH, not the state of the proclaimer's heart or his motives or methods. Now, ideally, the proclaimer does everything out of a pure heart, for he is in need of being right with God as much so as his audience.

Whenever you find a verse like Phil 1:18, please consider the entire context of what is being said. Here again is the Living Bible for the context:

14. And because of my imprisonment many of the Christians here seem to have lost their fear of chains! Somehow my patience has encouraged them and they have become more and more bold in telling others about Christ.
15. Some, of course, are preaching the Good News because they are jealous of the way God has used me. They want reputations as fearless preachers! But others have purer motives,
16. preaching because they love me, for they know that the Lord has brought me here to use me to defend the Truth. And some preach to make me jealous, thinking that their success will add to my sorrows here in jail!
18. But whatever their motive for doing it, the fact remains that the Good News about Christ is being preached and I am glad.
19. I am going to keep on being glad, for I know that as you pray for me, and as the Holy Spirit helps me, this is all going to turn out for my good.

I assume that to gain a convert, one may follow the way of Paul since he was the master evangelist?

Yes, and there was nothing wrong with how HE preached the Gospel, with a pure heart, in truth, and in great concern for reaching the lost.

Consider what Paul said to the Thessalonians in his first letter to them:

3. So you can see that we were not preaching with any false motives or evil purposes in mind; we were perfectly straightforward and sincere.
4. For we speak as messengers from God, trusted by him to tell the truth; we change his message not one bit to suit the taste of those who hear it; for we serve God alone, who examines our hearts' deepest thoughts.
5. Never once did we try to win you with flattery, as you very well know, and God knows we were not just pretending to be your friends so that you would give us money!
6. As for praise, we have never asked for it from you or anyone else, although as apostles of Christ we certainly had a right to some honor from you.
7. But we were as gentle among you as a mother feeding and caring for her own children.
8. We loved you dearly--so dearly that we gave you not only God's message, but our own lives too. (1 Thess. 2:3-8).

Peace

[Isa Abdullah]

bismillah

Greetings,

If you follow through with that idea you come to this: the worse we are, the better God likes it! But the damnation of those who say such things is just. Yet some claim that this is what I preach!

That is absolutely incorrect.

The above verse, writen by Paul in one of his prison letters, was talking about certain individuals, who were proclaiming Jesus, some with improper motives or methods ("in pretense"), others properly ("in truth"). He is not saying he rejoices that some used pretense in their proclamation. Rather, he rejoices that Jesus is proclaimed. There is a difference. For example, I could be a wicked sinner whose heart is far from God, standing in a pulpit, proclaiming the Gospel message of how Jesus died for sinners and rose again. That Gospel message can still save sinners who respond positively to it, regardless of my wicked heart. The rejoicing is over the proclamation of TRUTH, not the state of the proclaimer's heart or his motives or methods. Now, ideally, the proclaimer does everything out of a pure heart, for he is in need of being right with God as much so as his audience.

This concept can work for any religion that proclaims the TRUTH. Of course, humanity are not perfect, but we can correct one another and help to lift one another up.

Peace.

[Isa Abdullah]

bismillah

I have seen the Corinthians verse miscontrued and interpreted in different ways. I have seen it lined up with different contexts of the Bible and the like. In the end you cannot judge a man's intentions, but you can know him through his actions.

Thanks for the comments Phil.

[dougmusr]

bismillah

Corinthians 9:20-22:

"To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law -- though not being myself under the law -- that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law -- not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ -- that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak."

Can any Christians comment on their opinion on this verse?

Presuming that you follow the teachings of Islam, and believe it provides the answers to life now and in the hereafter, would you not be willing to make changes in your lifestyle which are not not in conflict with the teachings of your faith in order to gain the trust and respect of those in another culture or social class to share this truth? It might be as simple as wearing different clothes, eating different foods, or taking up different hobbies in order to associate with others. As a Christian, I see nothing deceitful about Paul's statement, only humility and love for Christ and those who are lost.

[Isa Abdullah]

bismillah

I will not be willing to compromise Islam for the sake of anything. In Christianity it appears that one has no bounds accept for calling to Jesus (as). I will not pretend to be a Jew in order to lead a Jew to Islam, I will not pretend to be a Christian, or a JW, or any faith in order to get them to follow Islam. I will not drink, wine, curse, or anything in order to bring someone to Islam. If I am speaking to someone who like to drink and hit on women, I would not do that. That is extreme, but the statement in the Epistle seems to promote becoming one like them in order to convert them.

[dougmusr]

bismillah

I will not be willing to compromise Islam for the sake of anything. In Christianity it appears that one has no bounds accept for calling to Jesus (as). I will not pretend to be a Jew in order to lead a Jew to Islam, I will not pretend to be a Christian, or a JW, or any faith in order to get them to follow Islam. I will not drink, wine, curse, or anything in order to bring someone to Islam. If I am speaking to someone who like to drink and hit on women, I would not do that. That is extreme, but the statement in the Epistle seems to promote becoming one like them in order to convert them.

So you are saying Islam is important to you, and you will not compromise your faith to win someone to it. That is exactly what I said when I asked: "would you not be willing to make changes in your lifestyle which are not not in conflict with the teachings of your faith". Nowhere in the verse does Paul ever say he will violate his faith to win people to Christ. You want it to be there because you don't like the Christian scriptures and are looking to discredit them.

[Isa Abdullah]

Corinthians 9:20-22:

"To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law -- though not being myself under the law -- that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law -- not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ -- that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak."

bismillah

Nice assumption. Your opinion is different from what I get on this verse. This verse appears that you can do what you will to win one for Christ.

I am not looking to discredit your scriptures. I already believe they are false and that many others, excluding Muslims discredit your scriptures. It is not for me to try to discredit them. They discredit themselves.

[evangel]

bismillah

Corinthians 9:20-22:

"To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law -- though not being myself under the law -- that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law -- not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ -- that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak."

Can any Christians comment on their opinion on this verse?

What Paul is speaking into here is to have respect for the culture that you are in. Many people in different countries dislike Americans because they see us as a people that no matter where we are we are Americans and will do it the American way. I was stationed in Germany in the 80s and many of the GI's that I knew had this mind set. Paul reminds us that when we are in other's backyards that we are their guests and should act appropriatly.

[Isa Abdullah]

bismillah

Greetings, Evangel.

I understand what you mean, however, it does not sound like that to me.

[evangel]

Corinthians 9:20-22 "To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews;
When Paul was with the Jews he observed their traditions, temple laws and holy days.

to those under the law I became as one under the law though not being myself under the law that I might win those under the law.
When he was with those that tried to follow the letter of the law he did as they did out of courtesy because the law had been fulfilled in Christ Jesus. This would have been mostly dietary law, not eating anything unclean.

that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law -- not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ -- that I might win those outside the law.
Here he speaks of being with gentiles, those that weren't hebrew so weren't under the law. Again a lot of this is dietary.

To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak."
In Romans he writes that though he desires to do perfectly he doesn't and that only because of Jesus can he be redeemed. In various other letters from him he acknowledges his sinfulness. Being weak is a part of his testimony. He speaks the Good News and lets the listener know, "I am weak, I am not strong enough to live this life perfectly so don't think you need be perfect to have Jesus accept you."

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

No more disturbing than islam teachings that allow for muslims to deceive/lie. It is well known that this is allowed.

Actually what is well-known is that Islam condemns lying, which you have just done now in making this blatantly false charge.

On the contrary the Qur'an condemns lying saying that liars will have blackened faces on the day of judgement (39:60), God guides not the liars (40:28), liars have a painful doom awaiting them (2:10), God commands Muslims to speak the truth (9:119), none is more oppressive than the one who invents a lie against God (29:28), we are accountable for every promise (17:34), Muslims are to shun lying (22:30).

And the Prophet condemned lying as well in so many narrations:

Make truth mandatory on yourself because truth shows the way to righteousness and righteousness takes you to paradise, and a person becomes committed to the search for the truth until he is listed amongst the truthful by Allah. Stay away from lies because they lead to sin and depravation, which is the way to hell, and the liar is swept by the current of lies, seeks them and is ultimately listed amongst the liars by Allah.(Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu Dawud, Sunan Tirmidhi)

When a person lies, the angels shun him for miles because of the stench of that lie (Sunan Tirmidhi)

A person once asked the prophet (peace be upon him): “Is it possible for someone to have faith yet be a coward?” The Prophet (peace be upon him) replied: “Yes”. He then asked: “Is it possible for him to be stingy?” The Prophet (peace be upon him) replied: “Yes”. He then asked: “Is it possible for him to be a liar?” The Prophet (peace be upon him) replied: “No.” (Sunan Al-Bayhaqi)

The Islamic evidence which condemns lying is overhwelming.

[Isa Abdullah]

Corinthians 9:20-22 "To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews;
When Paul was with the Jews he observed their traditions, temple laws and holy days.

to those under the law I became as one under the law though not being myself under the law that I might win those under the law.
When he was with those that tried to follow the letter of the law he did as they did out of courtesy because the law had been fulfilled in Christ Jesus. This would have been mostly dietary law, not eating anything unclean.

that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law -- not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ -- that I might win those outside the law.
Here he speaks of being with gentiles, those that weren't hebrew so weren't under the law. Again a lot of this is dietary.

To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak."
In Romans he writes that though he desires to do perfectly he doesn't and that only because of Jesus can he be redeemed. In various other letters from him he acknowledges his sinfulness. Being weak is a part of his testimony. He speaks the Good News and lets the listener know, "I am weak, I am not strong enough to live this life perfectly so don't think you need be perfect to have Jesus accept you."

bismillah

It appears hypocritical. In following this verse I can pretend to be a Christian in order to call those non-Christians to Christianity. I can pretend to convert to another religion, knowing full well I do not believe in that religion, but I can do so for the sake of 'saving' the disbeliever.

Thanks Evangel for the clarification, but this is a verse that we will not see eye to eye on.

[evangel]

bismillah

It appears hypocritical. In following this verse I can pretend to be a Christian in order to call those non-Christians to Christianity. I can pretend to convert to another religion, knowing full well I do not believe in that religion, but I can do so for the sake of 'saving' the disbeliever.

Thanks Evangel for the clarification, but this is a verse that we will not see eye to eye on.

He pretends to be nothing. He is courteous. Paul is a Christian Jew so where is the fraud in following Jewish custom? If an American becomes muslim can he no longer celebrate the 4th of July, no more apple pie. Being a Hebrew was his nationality, his faith is Christian. Why would one cancel out the other?

Hebrews worshipped the law more than the Lord. He was still free to observe the law and it was courteous to do so. Where is the fraud?

He was also free to not observe the Law. He didn't ask gentiles to adhere to something he was given freedom from. Where is the fraud?

He is not perfect and acknowledges that to all which is a lot more honest than most self righteous "religious" folks. Where is the fraud?


It appears that you have no reason to disagree with me yet you do. It appears that this is a verse about courtesy and manners and that bothers you.


Romans 7:14-15, 24-25
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin.
I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.
Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

[nimrod]

Isa Abdullah, when you read the accounts of what happened when Paul went back to Jerusalem to meet with the other apostles; you will see what kind of deception you are asking about.

Acts 21

17When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers received us warmly. 18The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.

20When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality."

26The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them.

When you read about Paul’s teachings, you clearly see that he opposed having the people being lead back into the Law and all the regulations. Yet here we see Paul acting in accordance with the Law and its regulations in order to not offend those he was preparing to address.

Paul tried to make him self as acceptable as possible to everyone in order make accepting his message acceptable.

An example of this might be seen as doing this:

I clearly have the “right”, under Christian, teachings to enjoy a cold beer with my
Bar-b-qued pork ribs.

However if I happen to have folks that are Muslims invited to share the meal with me, I will not serve any alcohol nor any food that Islam considers wrong.

I will do this in order to not allow my freedoms to become a stumbling block for them.

To the Muslim I will appear to be under the Law. The Muslims at the dinner may find me more acceptable that way, and should the after dinner talk turn toward religion, then my message maybe be less offensive to them.

That is what Paul was doing.

Thanks
Nimrod