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sameer
07-24-2006, 04:30 PM
Why does the west claim that the "state of israel" has a right to exist?

Is it beacuse they wanted the jews out of thier lands?:? so they decided to stick someone else with their problems?
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j4763
07-24-2006, 04:31 PM
Was it not the jews land long before the muslims came along?
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Geronimo
07-24-2006, 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by sameer
Why does the west claim that the "state of israel" has a right to exist?

Is it beacuse they wanted the jews out of thier lands?:? so they decided to stick someone else with their problems?
Outside of Israel the US has the largest Jewish population in the world. So what was that about not wanting them on our land?
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MRR
07-24-2006, 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by sameer
Why does the west claim that the "state of israel" has a right to exist?

Is it beacuse they wanted the jews out of thier lands?:? so they decided to stick someone else with their problems?
Because Israel already existed right where it is.
so they decided to stick someone else with their problems?
I would not consider the jews a problem for people elsewhere in the world. I can see why the arab countries in the region see them as a problem though. After each humiliating defeat at the hands of the Israeli army, in every war there has been. Yes, that would be a problem for me too.
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Skillganon
07-24-2006, 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by j4763
Was it not the jews land long before the muslims came along?
No it, was the land of the people who where living their, and it includes Jews, christian, muslim. Many throughout the history converted to Islam, that's why they are muslim. In contrary many of the Jews their are immigrant from european countries in the sole purpose of expelling the indegeniouse people who happen to be muslim in majority.

This is a sole misconception on your part. For example If I converted to Judaism does it mean that it is my right to take other people homes in the light that I am a Jew, in the cost of the people who where living their? Than set up a state of Israel.
IF you take the historical bible, than you will know the Jew's came to those land during the exodus and they are not native, but in the contrary the indiginouse people their existed their for a long time.
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sameer
07-24-2006, 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by Geronimo
Outside of Israel the US has the largest Jewish population in the world. So what was that about not wanting them on our land?
how come the jews flocked to the US? is it beacuse of antisemetism shown to them by the same europeans and russians who now wishes/pushes them into israel?

But the question is y? they created a country called israel? Do they love the jewish ppl much? Did they ever do this for any other country or ppl?:? or maybe is some hidden agenda? If they really loved them how come they dont respect their religous teachings etc? :?
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sameer
07-24-2006, 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
No it, was the land of the people who where living their, and it includes Jews, christian, muslim. Many throughout the history converted to Islam, that's why they are muslim. In contrary many of the Jews their are immigrant from european countries in the sole purpose of expelling the indegeniouse people who happen to be muslim in majority.

This is a sole misconception on your part. For example If I converted to Judaism does it mean that it is my right to take other people homes in the light that I am a Jew, in the cost of the people who where living their? Than set up a state of Israel.
IF you take the historical bible, than you will know the Jew's came to those land during the exodus and they are not native, but in the contrary the indiginouse people their existed their for a long time.
well put....but i dont think they will acknowledge ure point.
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sameer
07-24-2006, 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by MRR
Because Israel already existed right where it is.
I would not consider the jews a problem for people elsewhere in the world. I can see why the arab countries in the region see them as a problem though. After each humiliating defeat at the hands of the Israeli army, in every war there has been. Yes, that would be a problem for me too.
U seem to be gloating?
ANd what do u expect, when the west supplies arms and money to Israel ?
And when the Arabs get/purcahse ARms...the same west hits them with sanctions.
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nennar
07-24-2006, 04:59 PM
:sl: :brother: sameer!

how are you?

i to would like to know why the west dose that?:?
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MRR
07-24-2006, 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by sameer
U seem to be gloating?
ANd what do u expect, when the west supplies arms and money to Israel ?
And when the Arabs get/purcahse ARms...the same west hits them with sanctions.
Gloating? I'm not jewish. The reasons will always be the same for one side winning. More money and arms usually wins. What's the point? A win is still a win.
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sameer
07-24-2006, 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by nennar
:sl: :brother: sameer!

how are you?

i to would like to know why the west dose that?:?
wa alikum asalam sister nennar...I am good alhumdudillah..how about u? looooooooooooooooooooong time no see :)
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Geronimo
07-24-2006, 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by sameer
how come the jews flocked to the US? is it beacuse of antisemetism shown to them by the same europeans and russians who now wishes/pushes them into israel?

But the question is y? they created a country called israel? Do they love the jewish ppl much? Did they ever do this for any other country or ppl?:? or maybe is some hidden agenda? If they really loved them how come they dont respect their religous teachings etc? :?
Maybe because rockets don't lad on US soil everyday? I don't know you're gonna have to ask an American Jew.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-24-2006, 05:06 PM
do u guys know that jews aren't even alllowed to have their own state? Its written in their Torah or Talmud. One of them i think.
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Geronimo
07-24-2006, 05:06 PM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
No it, was the land of the people who where living their, and it includes Jews, christian, muslim. Many throughout the history converted to Islam, that's why they are muslim. In contrary many of the Jews their are immigrant from european countries in the sole purpose of expelling the indegeniouse people who happen to be muslim in majority.

This is a sole misconception on your part. For example If I converted to Judaism does it mean that it is my right to take other people homes in the light that I am a Jew, in the cost of the people who where living their? Than set up a state of Israel.
IF you take the historical bible, than you will know the Jew's came to those land during the exodus and they are not native, but in the contrary the indiginouse people their existed their for a long time.
But many also didn't convert but you are advocating they leave.
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Geronimo
07-24-2006, 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
do u guys know that jews aren't even alllowed to have their own state? Its written in their Torah or Talmud. One of them i think.
Show me where.
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sameer
07-24-2006, 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by MRR
Gloating? I'm not jewish. The reasons will always be the same for one side winning. More money and arms usually wins. What's the point? A win is still a win.
ure not jewish...buh u aint muslim either.

True..more money and arms usually wins in the short term.
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sameer
07-24-2006, 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by Geronimo
But many also didn't convert but you are advocating they leave.
I think i answered ure similar question in another thread...maybe u didnt read it...but then again maybe u deberatly go around in circles because u have nothing to say.
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Geronimo
07-24-2006, 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by sameer
I think i answered ure similar question in another thread...maybe u didnt read it...but then again maybe u deberatly go around in circles because u have nothing to say.
Haven't gotten past this thread yet.
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sameer
07-24-2006, 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by Geronimo
Show me where.
http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/index.cfm

taken from the above jewish site:

All the great rabbis who in accordance with Jewish Law opposed Zionism at its inception did not do so merely due to consideration of the secular lifestyles of the then Zionist leaders or even for their opposition to Torah heritage and rejection of its values and practices, but due to the fact that the entire concept of a Jewish state is in direct conflict with a number of Judaism's fundamentals.

Condemnation of and segregation from anything connected to or affiliated with the so-called modern day "State of Israel" is based on the Talmud, the key fundamental doctrine of the Oral Tradition handed down by G-d to Moses on Mt. Sinai. The Talmud in Tractate Kesubos (p. 111a), teaches that Jews shall not use human force to bring about the establishment of a Jewish state before the coming of the universally accepted Moshiach (Messiah from the House of David). Furthermore it states that we are forbidden to rebel against the nations and that we should remain loyal citizens and we shall not attempt to leave the exile which G-d sent us into, ahead of time.

Jews are not allowed to dominate, kill, harm or demean another people and are not allowed to have anything to do with the Zionist enterprise, their political meddling and their wars.
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Geronimo
07-24-2006, 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by sameer
http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/index.cfm

taken from the above jewish site:

All the great rabbis who in accordance with Jewish Law opposed Zionism at its inception did not do so merely due to consideration of the secular lifestyles of the then Zionist leaders or even for their opposition to Torah heritage and rejection of its values and practices, but due to the fact that the entire concept of a Jewish state is in direct conflict with a number of Judaism's fundamentals.

Condemnation of and segregation from anything connected to or affiliated with the so-called modern day "State of Israel" is based on the Talmud, the key fundamental doctrine of the Oral Tradition handed down by G-d to Moses on Mt. Sinai. The Talmud in Tractate Kesubos (p. 111a), teaches that Jews shall not use human force to bring about the establishment of a Jewish state before the coming of the universally accepted Moshiach (Messiah from the House of David). Furthermore it states that we are forbidden to rebel against the nations and that we should remain loyal citizens and we shall not attempt to leave the exile which G-d sent us into, ahead of time.

Jews are not allowed to dominate, kill, harm or demean another people and are not allowed to have anything to do with the Zionist enterprise, their political meddling and their wars.
You do realize this is a very small group that is consider to be out of touch with most Jews. That they don't even represent 1% of the Jewish population

Neturei Karta (Aramaic: נטורי קרתא; "Guardians of the City") is a group of Haredi (Ultra-Orthodox) Jews who reject all forms of Zionism and actively oppose the existence of the State of Israel. They are concentrated in Jerusalem, with branches in and around New York City and in Beit Shemesh near Jerusalem. Estimates of their membership range from 5,000 to less than 1,000
Mainstream Orthodox Jewish communities, including some who oppose Zionism, have denounced Neturei Karta's activities; according to The Guardian, "[e]ven among Charedi, or ultra-Orthodox circles, the Neturei Karta are regarded as a wild fringe".
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sameer
07-24-2006, 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by Geronimo
Haven't gotten past this thread yet.
This is taken from another thread..folowing up on the queeestion .. if we thought jews who were living in palestine b4 the state if israel should pack up and go also.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geronimo View Original
I'm talking about the Jews that have been living there the whole time. Since the Roman empire. When the Ottomans came all the Jews didn't up and leave. There's a poster here that lives in Israel that can trace his roots back to those times. What about him should he leave too? As for all muslims being from Mecca and Medina all I got to say is where did Islam first came on the scene? Wasn't it Muhammed that brought people to Islam?


so by ure logic...all chritians should go back to "israel" too? where did christianity come from? not from that area too? y dont u go back there?

No the jews living there shoudlnt have to leave...but as u said it....all the jews didint up and leave....meaing that they were lving there all the time and i might add...they recieved protection by the muslims from crusading chritians throughtout the centuries. So if the jews were living there all the time.... y form a fake state of israel to the detrement of the palestines?
Isnt it a jewish belief that a messiah would return and rebuild the temple on the mount and then set up a state of israel?
Are u that messiah by chance?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-24-2006, 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by Geronimo
Show me where.
Im gunna have to find it myself cuz i heard it on the news...and they were "orthodox jews" who mentioned this.
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sameer
07-24-2006, 05:33 PM
Originally Posted by Geronimo
You do realize this is a very small group that is consider to be out of touch with most Jews. That they don't even represent 1% of the Jewish population
u asked where in the torah spoke about establishing the state of israel only when the messiah comes.... i believe that in my post it had the verse quoted there.
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Geronimo
07-24-2006, 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by sameer
u asked where in the torah spoke about establishing the state of israel only when the messiah comes.... i believe that in my post it had the verse quoted there.
They said it shouldn't use human force they didn't, they bought land and was then granted a state by the UN. Show me where it says Israel should not exist.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-24-2006, 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by Geronimo
You do realize this is a very small group that is consider to be out of touch with most Jews. That they don't even represent 1% of the Jewish population
theyre out of touch becuz theyre stating the truth? Of course everyone is gunna denounce them becuz they brought up a fact..!!!!! >.<
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Geronimo
07-24-2006, 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Im gunna have to find it myself cuz i heard it on the news...and they were "orthodox jews" who mentioned this.
You must have missed this but I'll bold it for you:

Mainstream Orthodox Jewish communities, including some who oppose Zionism, have denounced Neturei Karta's activities; according to The Guardian, "[e]ven among Charedi, or ultra-Orthodox circles, the Neturei Karta are regarded as a wild fringe".
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-24-2006, 05:39 PM
nope i read it lol..damn this thread is gettin all over the place..
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Geronimo
07-24-2006, 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by sameer
This is taken from another thread..folowing up on the queeestion .. if we thought jews who were living in palestine b4 the state if israel should pack up and go also.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geronimo View Original
I'm talking about the Jews that have been living there the whole time. Since the Roman empire. When the Ottomans came all the Jews didn't up and leave. There's a poster here that lives in Israel that can trace his roots back to those times. What about him should he leave too? As for all muslims being from Mecca and Medina all I got to say is where did Islam first came on the scene? Wasn't it Muhammed that brought people to Islam?


so by ure logic...all chritians should go back to "israel" too? where did christianity come from? not from that area too? y dont u go back there?

No the jews living there shoudlnt have to leave...but as u said it....all the jews didint up and leave....meaing that they were lving there all the time and i might add...they recieved protection by the muslims from crusading chritians throughtout the centuries. So if the jews were living there all the time.... y form a fake state of israel to the detrement of the palestines?
Isnt it a jewish belief that a messiah would return and rebuild the temple on the mount and then set up a state of israel?
Are u that messiah by chance?
I'll address this in the appropriate thread
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Geronimo
07-24-2006, 05:48 PM
You bolded the wrong part:
teaches that Jews shall not use human force to bring about the establishment of a Jewish state.

Where does it say it is not to exist at all? It just says human force cannot be used to extablish it.
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SirZubair
07-24-2006, 05:56 PM
:sl:

I am not going to get into the political side of things here.

I will make my statements as clear as i can, so that insha'allah there will be no misunderstandings.

The jews that ORIGINALLY took over the land are All dead,or Dying.

The ones who are still there are the ones who were born there.

So as far as i can see,i do not see a reason why they should leave the land. that is Their MOTHERLAND.

BUT,having said that,..

..i don't see a reason why they can't share the land with their 'neighbours' :?

First thing both sides has to stop doing is,..they have to stop breeding hate in the hearts of their children. But neither side is willing to do that. The Palestinians are being as bad as the israelies.

Having said all that, .. muslims and jews have lived in peace and harmony in the past. They can live in peace and harmony even today.

It all comes down to "WILL",..is either side willing to live in peace with the other side?

No.

Let the death and destruction continue.

Eye for an eye and the world goes blind.

*Sigh*

:w:

-Zubair
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-24-2006, 05:57 PM
Your right...so true :)
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Geronimo
07-24-2006, 06:08 PM
Originally Posted by SirZubair
:sl:

I am not going to get into the political side of things here.

I will make my statements as clear as i can, so that insha'allah there will be no misunderstandings.

The jews that ORIGINALLY took over the land are All dead,or Dying.

The ones who are still there are the ones who were born there.

So as far as i can see,i do not see a reason why they should leave the land. that is Their MOTHERLAND.

BUT,having said that,..

..i don't see a reason why they can't share the land with their 'neighbours' :?

First thing both sides has to stop doing is,..they have to stop breeding hate in the hearts of their children. But neither side is willing to do that. The Palestinians are being as bad as the israelies.

Having said all that, .. muslims and jews have lived in peace and harmony in the past. They can live in peace and harmony even today.

It all comes down to "WILL",..is either side willing to live in peace with the other side?

No.

Let the death and destruction continue.

Eye for an eye and the world goes blind.

*Sigh*

:w:

-Zubair
I agree they should live in peace and I believe Olmert was working toward that. He was elected under the banner of giving back the West Bank and half of Jersualem. All HAMAS had to do was reject violence and recognize Israel.
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sameer
07-24-2006, 06:09 PM
Originally Posted by Geronimo
You bolded the wrong part:
teaches that Jews shall not use human force to bring about the establishment of a Jewish state.

Where does it say it is not to exist at all? It just says human force cannot be used to extablish it.
ok main word..human...
is it not humans created it?
wheres the messiah? dosent it say that it shall not use human force b4 to establish it b4 the coming of the messiah? therefore it shoudltn be establsihed b4 the coming of the messiah.
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sameer
07-24-2006, 06:11 PM
Originally Posted by Geronimo
I agree they should live in peace and I believe Olmert was working toward that. He was elected under the banner of giving back the West Bank and half of Jersualem. All HAMAS had to do was reject violence and recognize Israel.
Was jerusalem part of the original israel as declared by the UN or who ever in 1947?
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Keltoi
07-24-2006, 06:12 PM
What right does the non-existant state of Palestine have to exist? Perhaps we should be thinking about peace, and the only way to peace is for both states to exist.
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sameer
07-24-2006, 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
What right does the non-existant state of Palestine have to exist? Perhaps we should be thinking about peace, and the only way to peace is for both states to exist.
beacuse they were currently living there for hundreds of years As also were some jews, but how come they did not establish a paletinian State?
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Keltoi
07-24-2006, 06:16 PM
Originally Posted by sameer
beacuse they were currently living there for hundreds of years As also were some jews, but how come they did not establish a paletinian State?
If they want a Palestinian state then they should recognize Israel and stop the violence. They would already have a state by now if that was the case.
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sameer
07-24-2006, 06:23 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
If they want a Palestinian state then they should recognize Israel and stop the violence. They would already have a state by now if that was the case.
y dont u suggest that they stick to the lands giving to them by the UN in 1947? and return the rest of lands taken from the palestinians , egyptiians , lebanon etc.? Y dont they stict to their state? in stead of siezing new lands and extending their boundaries?
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Keltoi
07-24-2006, 06:24 PM
Originally Posted by sameer
y dont u suggest that they stick to the lands giving to them by the UN in 1947? and return the rest of lands taken from the palestinians , egyptiians , lebanon etc.? Y dont they stict to their state? in stead of siezing new lands and extending their boundaries?
That land was taken in a war against Israel by a coalition of Arab states. Perhaps that will be a lesson for them the next time they consider such an act.
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sameer
07-24-2006, 06:27 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
That land was taken in a war against Israel by a coalition of Arab states. Perhaps that will be a lesson for them the next time they consider such an act.
what about incursions after the war?
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sameer
07-24-2006, 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
That land was taken in a war against Israel by a coalition of Arab states. Perhaps that will be a lesson for them the next time they consider such an act.
so i guess since US invaded Iraq, grenada, vietnam etc...then they can claim land in the US?
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Keltoi
07-24-2006, 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by sameer
so i guess since US invaded Iraq, grenada, vietnam etc...then they can claim land in the US?
They would have if they had the ability to do so. We probably wouldn't have went to war with those countries again if they had would we?
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Woodrow
07-24-2006, 06:32 PM
Originally Posted by Geronimo
They said it shouldn't use human force they didn't, they bought land and was then granted a state by the UN. Show me where it says Israel should not exist.
True after they gained ownership land was bought and sold. But, who bought the land in 1947 and from whom?
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sameer
07-24-2006, 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
They would have if they had the ability to do so. We probably wouldn't have went to war with those countries again if they had would we?
u conviently forgot to answer my other question about incursions after the war
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sameer
07-24-2006, 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by sameer
ok main word..human...
is it not humans created it?
wheres the messiah? dosent it say that it shall not use human force b4 to establish it b4 the coming of the messiah? therefore it shoudltn be establsihed b4 the coming of the messiah.
*still waiting for geranimo to point out hte messiah to me*:rollseyes
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SirZubair
07-24-2006, 06:40 PM
Hey! how about this !?

Why don't the two of you join the peace-keeping force? :)
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Skillganon
07-24-2006, 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by Geronimo
But many also didn't convert but you are advocating they leave.
That is another misconception, if we are advocating the native people who did not convert to leave, than their won't be any palestinian, christian, Jews, in the contrary their are, and has and do exist. We are not against Jew's but the the Zionist state and the people who forcefully took people lands, livelihood with murder and rape of the land that never was theirs and setting up a state.

We are not saying the native Jews or christian to leave, unless you think they never existed. You must note that not all Jews in Israel are native but was immigrated to push up the population so they can set up a majority of goverment and a state on other peoples land which been forcefully stolen.

Is simple, what if Indian comes into britian, expel the native people out of their home and land (stealing it) and set up a state of their own state here in britain with Indian being the Majority.
OF course you will fight against those indian that took your home, in the cost of the blood of your women and childre, and you won't recognise their Indian state and their right to exist.
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Skillganon
07-24-2006, 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by Geronimo
They said it shouldn't use human force they didn't, they bought land and was then granted a state by the UN. Show me where it says Israel should not exist.
That is another statement that defies logic. They bought the land from the people who are fighting for their land. How could you buy a land were I did not sell it to you, but was expelled from it in the cost of my family e.t.c That is what the people of palestinian are fighting for.

It's stupid to think that someone bought a land from a person who was not willing to sell it to you in the first place, force them to give it up peacefully or not. IT is how the Mafia work's.
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Trumble
07-24-2006, 07:09 PM
Originally Posted by sameer
Why does the west claim that the "state of israel" has a right to exist?
Because it's there, and has been for 60 years. It's that simple.

I don't see the history as even relevant any more as far as Israel's right to exist is concerned. In 2006, Israel is a nation of 7 million people the vast majority of whom were born there. To them, and to me come to that, it makes the State of Israel proper (as opposed to the occupied territories) their land and their home, and they aren't going anywhere. It is their nation, and they want it to remain so, and no amount of huffing and puffing from those who generally live nowhere near Israel will change that. Its not as if virtually every other nation state on the planet wasn't founded in much the same way... just a little longer ago (and not much in many cases).

Maybe at some time in the future somebody else will occupy/invade/conquer whatever the same land, but I hope not - it really is time our species moved on from that.
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sameer
07-24-2006, 07:18 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
Because it's there, and has been for 60 years. It's that simple.

I don't see the history as even relevant any more as far as Israel's right to exist is concerned. In 2006, Israel is a nation of 7 million people the vast majority of whom were born there. To them, and to me come to that, it makes the State of Israel proper (as opposed to the occupied territories) their land and their home, and they aren't going anywhere. It is their nation, and they want it to remain so, and no amount of huffing and puffing from those who generally live nowhere near Israel will change that. Its not as if virtually every other nation state on the planet wasn't founded in much the same way... just a little longer ago (and not much in many cases).

Maybe at some time in the future somebody else will occupy/invade/conquer whatever the same land, but I hope not - it really is time our species moved on from that.
ok lets say in 1947....what was the reasoning of the implementaion of the state of israel?
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Skillganon
07-24-2006, 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
Because it's there, and has been for 60 years. It's that simple.

I don't see the history as even relevant any more as far as Israel's right to exist is concerned. In 2006, Israel is a nation of 7 million people the vast majority of whom were born there. To them, and to me come to that, it makes the State of Israel proper (as opposed to the occupied territories) their land and their home, and they aren't going anywhere. It is their nation, and they want it to remain so, and no amount of huffing and puffing from those who generally live nowhere near Israel will change that. Its not as if virtually every other nation state on the planet wasn't founded in much the same way... just a little longer ago (and not much in many cases).

Maybe at some time in the future somebody else will occupy/invade/conquer whatever the same land, but I hope not - it really is time our species moved on from that.
So what if Indians come and forcefully take the land that is now called Britian, set up their own goverment by expelling the whites and immigrating Indians into it as a majority. Will you be here and say it has been sixty years of systematic expulsion of whites on the blood and life of the whites , women and children but You have to mantain the Indians right to exist their even if the whites don't see it. That the Indian aint moving and they will defend it rightfully. Of course you won't if it happened to you, your children, or family.
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Geronimo
07-24-2006, 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by sameer
beacuse they were currently living there for hundreds of years As also were some jews, but how come they did not establish a paletinian State?
They would have had a Palestianan state in 1947 but they rejected it.
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Geronimo
07-24-2006, 07:44 PM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
That is another misconception, if we are advocating the native people who did not convert to leave, than their won't be any palestinian, christian, Jews, in the contrary their are, and has and do exist. We are not against Jew's but the the Zionist state and the people who forcefully took people lands, livelihood with murder and rape of the land that never was theirs and setting up a state.

We are not saying the native Jews or christian to leave, unless you think they never existed. You must note that not all Jews in Israel are native but was immigrated to push up the population so they can set up a majority of goverment and a state on other peoples land which been forcefully stolen.

Is simple, what if Indian comes into britian, expel the native people out of their home and land (stealing it) and set up a state of their own state here in britain with Indian being the Majority.
OF course you will fight against those indian that took your home, in the cost of the blood of your women and childre, and you won't recognise their Indian state and their right to exist.
You mean like muslims did to India? Remember Pakistan was created the same way Israel was. Like I told another poster that I'm fine with all Jews leaving the ME if all Muslims leave the West.
Reply

sameer
07-24-2006, 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by Geronimo
You mean like muslims did to India? Remember Pakistan was created the same way Israel was. Like I told another poster that I'm fine with all Jews leaving the ME if all Muslims leave the West.
or are u just fine with all muslims leaving the west?
Reply

Geronimo
07-24-2006, 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
That is another statement that defies logic. They bought the land from the people who are fighting for their land. How could you buy a land were I did not sell it to you, but was expelled from it in the cost of my family e.t.c That is what the people of palestinian are fighting for.

It's stupid to think that someone bought a land from a person who was not willing to sell it to you in the first place, force them to give it up peacefully or not. IT is how the Mafia work's.
So they didn't buy any land? They just showed up one day out of blue with no guarantee they would have a place to stay? Ssssssuuuuuurrrrrreeeee
Reply

Geronimo
07-24-2006, 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by sameer
how about answering the question? since u seem to know soo much?
Human force can be taken to mean many things. I look at it meaning to physically removing them by force in order to create Israel. That didn't happen.
Reply

Geronimo
07-24-2006, 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by sameer
or are u just fine with all muslims leaving the west?
At this point? No I wouldn't mind it at all.
Reply

nennar
07-24-2006, 08:11 PM
salaam alaikum!

it is written in the torah! the jews have no right to any land!......

yes:brother: sameer looooong time no see:statisfie
Reply

sameer
07-24-2006, 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by nennar
salaam alaikum!

it is written in the torah! the jews have no right to any land!......

yes:brother: sameer looooong time no see:statisfie
usually i dont bother to post in the world affairs forum cause ive realise that these guys just dont like muslims....regardless of what they say.
but today i just felt like shooting down all their points and making them show their true colors. :statisfie for all to see.
Reply

MRR
07-24-2006, 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by sameer
but today i just felt like shooting down all their points and making them show their true colors. :statisfie for all to see.
So when will you do this?
Reply

nennar
07-24-2006, 08:19 PM
the reason is that the jews know it very well! ......
but if the can blind the whole world... they can do what ever they want....and i simply dont understand it?????? its like they now have a mission! they have destroyed all trees in palestine and israel... and are now planting boxthorntrees where ever they can.... the trees is also called gharqad..., you can read for your selves

of ad-Dajjal
Now, it is no secret that we here at the Freethought Mecca are loyal servants of ad-Dajjal (alaihee shalom). In fact, the Freethought Mecca is the official site of ad-Dajjal, with all other sites claiming to be such being impostors. Regardless, as our support base grows, and the Global Conspiracy gains steam, we felt that we should offer our readers a chance to find out about the Dajjal's progress. We promise you that we are working around the clock to bring about the coming of our one-eyed master.

First, a note on the Dajjal's eye. There's been a great deal of talk with regards to how he will look, and which eye will be blind. First of all, the numerous sahih ahadith that are available to our ikhwan al-kaafireen are wholly unreliable. We've told you a thousand times not to rely on hadith collections, but still a few mental midgets do not heed our advice. The Freethought Mecca would now like to clear up the issue about the Dajjal's eye. First, we'd like to offer a few ahadith which allegedly cover this issue:

Sahih Muslim Book 041, Number 7005:

Ibn Umar reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) made a mention of Dajjal in the presence of the people and said: Allah is not one-eyed and behold that Dajjal is blind of the right eye and his eye would be like a floating grape.
Sahih Muslim Book 041, Number 7009:
Anas b. Malik reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Dajjal is blind of one eye and there is written between his eyes the word "kaafir". He then spelled the word as k. f. r., which every Muslim would be able to read.
Sahih Muslim Book 041, Number 7010:
Hudhalfa reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Dajjal is blind of left eye with thick hair and there would be a garden and fire with him and his fire would be a garden and his garden would be fire.
Now, these are all from the Sahih Muslim collection, yet they either contradict, or are blatantly wrong (what else is new?). Yes, our one-eyed wonder is indeed blind in one eye, but it is not the right eye as Ibn Umar claimed; rather it is his left eye, as Hudhalfa correctly pointed out. Furthermore, he does not have the word "kaafir" written between his eyes as was claimed by Anas b. Malik. He used to have that written there, but with all the new breakthroughs in elective cosmetic surgery, we were able to have it removed (thanks to funding given to us by the Greater Zionist Council).


Sahih Muslim Book 041, Number 7034:
Anas b. Malik reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: The Dajjal would be followed by seventy thousand Jews of Isfahan wearing Persian shawls.

Where is the Dajjal now?

For those who are wondering, the Dajjal is alive and well, and is actually living in Iran. It is in Iran that the Dajjal is trying to marshall his forces. We originally planned on building an army of Jews, but there's only a few thousand Jews left in the country (it's that darn migration to Israel I tell you!). Because of this, we've had to settle with the next best thing: Shias.

Now, some of the members of the Conspiracy Council are against this idea, citing examples such as Hezbollah, and other Shia militias that are fighting the forces of Zionism. Those types are essentially black sheep. We need not worry about them. Most of our Shia brethren are quite good at calling the halal haram, and calling the haram halal. The Dajjal actually has pretty good relations with the Irani government, and drinks Maneshevitz with President Khatami every Friday (see image at left).

At present, our Irani forces number in the tens of thousands. We wont give you an exact number, but let's just say it's a lot! Furthermore, as we just said, we're using an army of Shias rather than Jews, but they're basically just as good as Jews. With all their mystical emphasis put on the number twelve, we're slowly convincing them that the actual names of the twelve Imams were Yehudah, Ruven, Naftali, Shimon, Levi, Yosef, et cetera. Indeed, the earliest Shias were Jews, as Professor H.Graetz indirectly pointed out:

"The Babylonian Jews and the Nestorian Christians embraced the cause of Ali and rendered him material assistance. A Jew by the name of Abdallah Ibn Saba was an enthusiastic partisan of Ali, and proved to the Mohammedans on mystical grounds that Ali alone was worthy of the califate since the spirit of Mohammed descended upon him just as the spirit of Moses upon Joshua. At the capture of Peroz-Shabur or Anbar, a multitude, said to consist of ninety thousand Jews, headed by Mar Isaac, the chief of the academy of Sura, acclaimed Ali and paid homage to him at a time when his own followers were rather lukewarm in their support (658)."
[Graetz, History of the Jews, Vol. III (Hebrew Publishing co. 1919), p.4]
Still, we understand that many of the ungrateful Shia do not recognize their Jewish roots, and even go as far as to deny these roots when in debates with their Sunni brethren. This is of no consequence to us. Whether Shia, Sunni, or Wahabi, it is our goal to convert them to the path of kufr, be it as Jews, Christians, Hindus, or Atheists. Indeed, as the Qur'an says:


And the Jews will never be happy with you, nor the Christians, until you follow their way.


The Mufti of Jerusalem
The Great Mufti of Jerusalem has actually capitulated to Zionist money, and has joined the Global Conspiracy after we added a few million shekels to his bank account. We needed a major force to help us get the pious to convert to other faiths and ideologies. The aforementioned verse from the Qur'an fails to mention Atheists or the Polytheist Jahiloonytoonies, but then again, Allah always did seem to have something against us. Regardless, his Muftiness is going to help us return many Arabs living in Israel/Palestine back to glorious anthropomorphic and polytheist forms of worship. With this beginning, insh'ad-Dajjal, polytheism and shirk will spread throughout the Muslim world.

The great Mufti of Jerusalem has recently ordained that it is okay for Muslims to worship Israeli soldiers. This has not gone over well with certain Islamic hard-liners that are on the fringe, who argue that such practices will result in the Muslims sinking back into the polytheism practiced by the Jahiloonytoonies of pre Islamic Arabia. These fundamentalist opposition leaders have accused the Jerusalem Muslim community of committing shirk, have labeled them apostates, and demand they return to Islam within the next three days, else they will have no choice but to ask the Israelis to kill them all, as the Prophet (alaihee shalom) ordered: man baddalla deenahu, FAQTULUHU! or "He who changes his religion, KILL HIM!"


The great Mufti, however, has argued that worshiping Israeli soldiers is perfectly within the tenets of Islam. "In Islaam, we believe that the Most Merciful God, Allaah, uses coercion to keep us on the true path" said the Mufti during a recent trip to Baluchistan. "You must worship Allaah, because if you don't, He will hurt you severely." The Mufti continued by saying "therefore, in Islaam, one must worship those who have the power to kick your butt." It was with these words that the great Mufti has convinced numerous Muslims to adopt customs that are decidedly unfavorable in the proverbial eyes of Allah.

While there were small pockets of hard-line opposition across the Islamic world, most Muslims agreed that they should worship Israeli soldiers when in Israel. "Outside of Israel," noted one scholar from al-Azhar university, "we do not have to worship Israelis, as they have no power. Furthermore, you should only worship Israelis who carry automatic weapons. To worship an unarmed Israeli is to commit a grave sin." He went on to begin work on declaring a new edict, where Muslims in Egypt would worship Hosni Mubarak. This was not that big a step considering that many there already had shrines dedicated to the late Gimel Abdel-Naser.

Last Friday, during Jum'ah prayers, hundreds of Muslims prostrated before Israeli soldiers outside al-Masjidul-Aksa (the al-Aqsa Mosque).:


[Click Images for a Larger Version]
"This is the true answer to peace in the Middle East!" exclaimed a jubilant Muhammad Abdush'Shaytan ar-Rumi, a Palestinian halal-pork vender from East Jerusalem. "Before I dreamt of slitting Israa'eeli throats, and slamming their babies into walls, and pushing them into the sea. Now I love them, and am their servant in true devotion. Ehud Akbar!" Mr. Rumi is only one of many happy converts to our new heterodox form of Islam, and is none the wiser to our conspiracy. Numerous others are changing their names from Abdallah to Abdal-lat, Abdal-Uzza, and so on.


Then Prime Minister BinYameen Netanyahu planting a boxthorn tree in Israel in February of 1999.

Still, it is generally agreed that there is a good chance that ad-Dajjal will abandon us during the final battle. Many Muslim scholars seem rather confident that Jesus will return, and kill the Dajjal, most likely in a battle taking place in Syria. This is not all that unlikely, considering that our beloved leader is blind in one eye, and a bit out of shape. He is quite portly, corpulent even, and seems to be left short of breath from simple acts like combing his hair. We beg him to do some sit ups, but he's the boss, and there's not much we can do if he doesn't feel like exercising.

Thus, we are also preparing for the possibility that during the final battle, our leader will be killed, will flee, or will become preoccupied at a local donut shop. We want to be ready to fight on, even without the Dajjal's help. We think that our forces will be strong enough to overpower the Muslim Mujahideen (we've seen outnumbered Israelis pull it off). However, if we are unable to defend ourselves, we have found a loophole, courtesy of Allah's creation. Consider the following hadith:

Sahih Muslim Book 041, Number 6985:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

The Gharqad tree is more commonly known as the boxthorn tree. If it will hide Jews behind it, it will most likely hide allies of the Jews as well! We have been pouring great deals of money into projects that involve planting boxthorn trees all over the world, particularly in kaafir strongholds like the United States, Israel, and India. These loyal trees are exactly what we need in terms of protection. With entire forests of these trees, the worst case scenario will be a stalemate (that is, unless Pakistan obliterates these forests with Nuclear weapons).

Clearly, we've got all bases covered. We are slowly building a mighty army of crypto-Jews in Iran; every day more and more Muslims are embracing the customs of the Jahiliyya; our boxthorn saplings are growing into mighty trees. All we need to do now is wait.

Still, we need your support! Try at all costs to convert any Muslim you meet to your respective mythology or ideology, be it Atheism, Hinduism, Marxism, Humanism, Deism, Agnosticism, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, et cetera. Islaam, as well all know, is the true religion, and we must snuff out the light of Allah's religion. Insh'ash-Shaytan, the Freethought Mecca will soon offer online courses on how to convert Muslims to other ideologies.

You can also help by sending us money. Support the cause financially! We need money to buy weapons, publish books, as well as bribe the Imams, Muftis, and Mullahs of the world. Many of Islam's respective clerics have strong iman, thus it takes a hefty wad of cash to convince them to consider joining the Global Conspiracy. We've already bought the souls of Yasser Arafat, Sadam Hussein, Hosni Mubarak, King Abdullah of Jordan, the aforementioned Mufti of Jerusalem, the entire moderation staff of the usenet newsgroup soc.religion.islam, and numerous small time leaders. Still, there are numerous others who we have been unable to convince, such as Sheikh Nasrallah of Hezbollah, Sheikh Yassin of Hamas, and a few others. With larger financial resources, we'll be more able to bribe the few who have, thus far, slipped through our fingers. Send checks or money orders to:

The Freethought Mecca
Box 666
Yahutha al-Ishkherioti Synagogue
27 Mulhid Lane
Brahmin City, 08932-7194, Hinjewstan

We except US Dollars, Israeli Shekels, and Indian Rupies, but no other denominations. Those who send the equivalent of 100 US Dollars (roughly 73 billion Rupies) will get a free mug with your choice of either a star of David, a pentagram, or the Sanskrit letter OM written on the side. For a limited time only.

Until then, we would like to say to all our brothers, our ikhwaan al-Kaafireen wa'l-Mushrikeen, "Namaste, Shalom, and Good Night."
Reply

nennar
07-24-2006, 08:21 PM
they are not muslims! :brother: sameer and it makes me so angry!
its allright what the jews and christians do, but when we tyr and explain we are stupid and terrorists
Reply

Geronimo
07-24-2006, 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by sameer
at anypoint i'm sure u wouldnt mind............at least u admit it.

Anyhow..i wont bother to argue the Messiah point with u anymore...cause u balantly refuse to see it and besides u cant argue with Bigotry and u will never see our point. I feel sorry for u and ure blindness...err....umm..no i dont..i feel sorry for the ppl around u .
Trust me the people here have hardened my heart to the muslim cause more than any newpaper, newscast or website ever could.
Reply

MRR
07-24-2006, 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by nennar
they are not muslims! :brother: sameer and it makes me so angry!
its allright what the jews and christians do, but when we tyr and explain we are stupid and terrorists
Hey! That's not fair! Not all terrorists are stupid you know.
Reply

root
07-24-2006, 08:35 PM
Why does the west claim that the "state of israel" has a right to exist?
Same reason as the "Islamic Republic of Pakistan" I guess.
Reply

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