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Ansar Al-'Adl
07-28-2006, 02:42 AM
:sl:

Shaykh Muhammad Ibn Sâlih Al-'Uthaymîn said:
The torment of the grave happens to the soul, and it is not something that has a physical effect. If it had a physical effect it would not be the matter of belief in the unseen and believing in it would not serve any purpose. But it is one of the matters of the unseen, and the way things are in al-Barzakh cannot be compared to the way things are in this world. Thirdly:
Torment and blessing, and whether the grave is widened or constricted, are matters that the deceased feels but others do not. A man may see in his dream, whilst he is lying on his bed, that he is standing and coming and going, hitting or being hit. He may see himself in a confined and frightening place, or in a spacious and pleasant place, but those around him cannot see or feel that.
What we are obliged to do regarding such matters is to say “We hear and obey, and we believe and affirm.” (Majmû’ Fatâwa Ibn ‘Uthaymîn 2/29).
Shaykh Salmân Ibn Fahd Al-'Awdah writes:
How many stories have we heard where people claim to have seen things taking place at graves? Someone mentions that a grave was opened up for one reason or other and flames were found inside. Someone else claims that the body had been mysteriously turned away from the direction of prayer. There is no end to such tales.

When anyone attempts to verify such stories, they are always traced back to unknown sources at best, or more often to dubious sources and known liars. Unfortunately, such stories are often repeated by preachers who do not care to verify their sources.

How may graves have been exposed by flood or by other causes in front of the public eye without ever once any evidence of the pleasure or pain of the deceased being at all evident?

The reason for this – and Allah knows best – is that the affairs of the state of existence known as Barzakh – the “grave” – are not part of our physical world. They are connected with the affairs of the Hereafter. The physical laws that we know do not apply to the Barzakh and our sensory abilities cannot perceive it. So even though the denizen of the grave may be experiencing a time of comfort or a time of pain, those who might happen to be in the vicinity of the physical body will not perceive it at all.

6. A person might have a dream about someone in particular who has passed away a dream that seems to indicate the state of being of the deceased. A dream can be from the remaining one-forty-sixth share of prophecy, and as such give someone a glimpse of the unseen world. However, it is never definitive or certain. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said to Abû Bakr when that eminent Companion interpreted a dream: “You got some of it right and some of it wrong.”

Ahmad b. Hanbal said: “A good dream pleases a believer without beguiling him.”

At best, a dream has something to tell the one who experiences it. However, it does not apply to other people and they are not supposed to believe in it. They can never be certain of the state that the one who claims to have had the dream was in. Often, they cannot assess the integrity or truthfulness of the person who is relating his dream. (IslamToday.com - Cries from the Grave)
Shaykh Abû Bilâl Mustafâ Al-Kanadî notes:
But one may ask what happens to a person's body if it is partially or utterly destroyed due to an accident and is not buried in the earth. The scholars of old discussed this problem, resulting in the dependable view as stated by Ibn al-Qayyim:
"It should be known that the torment of the grave is the torment of the barzakh; thus everyone who dies and deserves to be punished must taste his portion thereof, whether he was buried in a grave or not. Consequently, if a person was eaten by a predator, burnt in a fire until he became ashes, blown up in the sky and scattered, or drowned in the sea, his designated punishment would reach his body [and soul] just as it reaches those in the graves." (Kitâb al-Rûh, p. 84)
(Mysteries of the Soul Expounded, p. 119)
All questions welcome.

:w:
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Ansar Al-'Adl
07-28-2006, 02:51 AM
:sl:

If you hit a dead corpse, will that person feel pain? The answer is obviosuly no, and this is further proof that the realm of Al-Barzakh is seperate and distinct from our physical world. To quote Shaykh Abdullah Al-Faqîh:
After the soul leaves the body, the corpse does not feel anything. Ibn 'Uyaynah, narrated from Mansoor Ibn Safiyyah from his mother said: "It was said to Ibn 'Umar, that Asamaa', the daughter of Abu Bakr, may Allaah be pleased with all of them, was in one side of the mosque [sad and lamenting] her son Ibn Az-Zubayr when he was crucified. So he went to her and told her: "These corpses do not suffer anything (i.e. after death), the souls are indeed with Allaah, so fear Allaah and be patient." (IslamWeb)
:w:
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searchingsoul
07-28-2006, 03:27 AM
Very nice information. I always knew that the soul was what survived. What puzzles me is talk about people burning in hell and descriptive phrases are used to make it seem like physical burning.

If the soul only survives (as we all know :) ) how can the soul feel burning sensations?
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lolwatever
07-28-2006, 03:42 AM
salams bro Ansar

jazak allah khayr for that.. i super agree that our beliefs shouldn't cling to these sorts of incidents, whether or not they may be true.

But one question, i think i read somewhere taht the personw ho washes the dead body should take extra care with the deceased because he feels pain (or the rooh feels pain) if poked and pinched... is that true?

Hence why one of the arguments i read that bodypart donations are haram is because the body feels pain after death, and so orthopsies n things like that will put the person through trouble.

jazak allah khayr! :)

salamz
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Ansar Al-'Adl
07-28-2006, 03:52 AM
Hi SearchingSoul,
Thanks for your post.
Originally Posted by searchingsoul
Very nice information. I always knew that the soul was what survived. What puzzles me is talk about people burning in hell and descriptive phrases are used to make it seem like physical burning.
The burning in Hell is a little different because it comes after the physical resurrection and reformation of the bodies. So although Hell is also part of the unseen, categorically seperate and distinct from our physical universe, the punishments that take place there and the sensations will be just as real. Keep in mind that as it is not part of our physical universe, it is not governed by the same laws and mechanisms and the way in which things happen there is beyond the limits of human imagination and understanding.
If the soul only survives (as we all know :) ) how can the soul feel burning sensations?
How do you know what the soul feels and what the soul doesn't feel? If your body is in pain right now, can you make a definitive statement about whether or not the soul is in pain? We do not know the mechanisms by which the soul functions, they remain a mystery to us and known only to God.

If we wish to utilise knowledge from the empirical sciences in our analysis of such concepts we must be cognizant of the limits and applicability of science in the first case. The soul is a matter which is beyond the scope of science, as are all other unseen entities which we believe in. So it is erroneous for us to attempt to analyze the soul and how it feels pain through science.

For one to raise a valid objection to a concept beyond the scope of science they must do so on logical grounds. Can you highlight for me the logical contradiction in saying that the soul experiences pain and bliss?

Regards
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Ansar Al-'Adl
07-28-2006, 03:56 AM
:sl:
Originally Posted by lolwatever
But one question, i think i read somewhere taht the personw ho washes the dead body should take extra care with the deceased because he feels pain (or the rooh feels pain) if poked and pinched... is that true?
As far as I know, the extra care is out of respect not because the dead person feels pain if you poke him.
Hence why one of the arguments i read that bodypart donations are haram is because the body feels pain after death, and so orthopsies n things like that will put the person through trouble.
From IslamToday:

Question: Are the children allowed to donate the organs of their dead parents where their parents nhave given no explicit instructions for or against doing so before their death?

Answered by Sheikh `Abd al-Rahmân al-Jar`î, professor at King Khâlid University in Abhâ

The donation of organs is contingent on the donor’s permission or the permission of the inheritors of donors after the donor’s death.

Upholding the dignity of the deceased is something afforded to the deceased by Islamic law. It may not be violated by others without the deceased’s permission.

This right, however, is bequeathed to the inheritors in the same way that the inheritors have the right to make a request on behalf of the deceased to pursue criminal prosecution of one who has slandered the deceased.

Permission is considered, therefore, if granted by the deceased or by the inheritors of the deceased, in consideration of their being those legally charged with upholding the honor of the deceased.

The organs of the deceased may be donated if the person permitted the donation of his organs before death, or if that permission is given by the joint decision of all of the inheritors.

And Allah knows best. (SOURCE)
:w:
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searchingsoul
07-28-2006, 04:01 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

For one to raise a valid objection to a concept beyond the scope of science they must do so on logical grounds. Can you highlight for me the logical contradiction in saying that the soul experiences pain and bliss?

Regards
nope:) you make perfect sense
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lolwatever
07-28-2006, 04:01 AM
oh jazak allah khayr.. i'll look it up again just to c if they provided any evidence.

btw just as an extra evidence, i always thought this only applied to shuhadaa, but it seems its a general case..

when Abdullah ibn Zubair was thinkign whether or not to make a final assault on Hajjaj, he asked his mother Asma for her opinion, and he told her "but i fear they'll mutilate me after my death", and Asma replied "and does the sheep feel any pain after it is killed when you remove its skin?"

jazaks once again
salamz
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جوري
07-28-2006, 05:30 AM
Salaam brother Ansar...
can you please tell me the destination of the soul after death?
there is a verse in the quran that speaks of Martyrs being alive with God and yerzakoon.... in some other place I read that their souls are in heaven.... then there are the instances that I read the the soul returns to the grave?
and the grave becomes a part of heaven or hell for the deceased....
Also are dead people aware of the living? Sometimes I have dreams about my dead relatives and they always have this knowing look on their face... always they have that same knowing look...
sorry of this is disjointed but let me give you an example
my mom had a dream about my grandfather sitting in his old factory and it was very dim... he invited her to sit down and she asked him why the place was this dark... he said things are alright and kissed her on the forehead... when she woke up she made some charity in his name and then had another dream about him in the same factory sitting and the place was much better lit... so it seems he wanted remembrance? so where I am not really asking for an interpretation of the dream I am asking to know if the dead know of our affairs and wish for us to know of them?...
thank you so much
waslaam
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Ansar Al-'Adl
08-09-2006, 05:01 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
can you please tell me the destination of the soul after death?
In general: Barzakh - the unseen realm.
http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_se...main_cat_id=18
To be more specific, it differs on the soul as well. Only the disbeliever's soul and the impious believer's soul will be confined to the grave. The souls of the martyrs, prophets and pious believers will not.
there is a verse in the quran that speaks of Martyrs being alive with God and yerzakoon.... in some other place I read that their souls are in heaven.... then there are the instances that I read the the soul returns to the grave?
The soul of the martyr is placed temporarily in the body of a green bird which dwells in paradise. See above link.
Also are dead people aware of the living?
Good question. In terms of whether the dead can hear the living, there is a legitimate difference of opinion in this matter. There are prominent and great scholars on both sides of the disagreement.
Sometimes I have dreams about my dead relatives and they always have this knowing look on their face... always they have that same knowing look...
sorry of this is disjointed but let me give you an example
my mom had a dream about my grandfather sitting in his old factory and it was very dim... he invited her to sit down and she asked him why the place was this dark... he said things are alright and kissed her on the forehead... when she woke up she made some charity in his name and then had another dream about him in the same factory sitting and the place was much better lit... so it seems he wanted remembrance? so where I am not really asking for an interpretation of the dream I am asking to know if the dead know of our affairs and wish for us to know of them?...
Yes the souls of the deceased may conciosuly meet with the souls of those who are sleeping as mentioned by Ibn Al-Qayyim, Ibn Kathir, Ibn Jarir At-Tabari, Al-Alusi and others. Ibn Al-Qayyim points out cases where the deceased appear in dreams and inform the sleeper of many things that were unknown to most.
However, the souls of the dead are not aware of what happens on earth. The news that they recieve and impart in such dreams is rare in occurence and limited in content. (see Mysteries of the Soul expounded by Abu Bilal Mustafa Al-Kanadi).

ps. sorry for the delayed response. I forgot about this thread.

:w:
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جوري
08-09-2006, 05:20 AM
I know you are busy... glad you got to it at all....
thank you... and for the links
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syilla
06-08-2007, 05:13 AM
*bump
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