How to explain what Israel is doing to an American

Maybe this might help so you can get a clearer view. I'm going use aliens as an example of the invaders. I posted this in another thread, it's a wrap-up on what is going on in Israel, Palestine, and Lebanon.

Say Aliens come into Canada, take 2/3rds of Canadian land and leave the rest to the Canadians. The Aliens are really strong and have tons of money. They regularly bring Canadian's down by destroying their infastructures, and imprisoning, torturing, killing their people, because they know if the Canadian's get some good power that they would fight for their land back. So the Aliens keep killing and has their state in check basically. Then the Aliens even mess with America, and actually take some of the Northern parts of america (if America was weaker of course)... So in turn a self-made militia group forms in America and fight off the Aliens in their land... but Aliens still get a piece of the land and a every once in a while go into america and fight with the militia group. Time goes on, America watches as the Aliens accross the border keep killing their Canadian brothers, and watch as the Aliens still have over 10,000 Americans and their Canadian brothers in prisons. So the american militia group comes up with a plan to get those soldiers out, by going into the Alien occupied territories of Canada and taking two Alien's hostage in a way to get the Aliens to free the poor prisoners. In turn, the Alien's launch a Hell of a war by bombing America and killing a lot of their Civilians, but say that they are only targeting the Militia group.

As an American what would you do? Would you not root the militia group, who are standing up for the counrty, the people, and their Canadian brothers?

Hmm... i just put yourself in an ordinary Lebanese citizens point of view there...and now you know why we (or most of us i hope) back up Hezbollah.

Kidman

Kidman said:

Maybe this might help so you can get a clearer view. I'm going use aliens as an example of the invaders. I posted this in another thread, it's a wrap-up on what is going on in Israel, Palestine, and Lebanon.

Say Aliens come into Canada, take 2/3rds of Canadian land and leave the rest to the Canadians. The Aliens are really strong and have tons of money. They regularly bring Canadian's down by destroying their infastructures, and imprisoning, torturing, killing their people, because they know if the Canadian's get some good power that they would fight for their land back. So the Aliens keep killing and has their state in check basically. Then the Aliens even mess with America, and actually take some of the Northern parts of america (if America was weaker of course)... So in turn a self-made militia group forms in America and fight off the Aliens in their land... but Aliens still get a piece of the land and a every once in a while go into america and fight with the militia group. Time goes on, America watches as the Aliens accross the border keep killing their Canadian brothers, and watch as the Aliens still have over 10,000 Americans and their Canadian brothers in prisons. So the american militia group comes up with a plan to get those soldiers out, by going into the Alien occupied territories of Canada and taking two Alien's hostage in a way to get the Aliens to free the poor prisoners. In turn, the Alien's launch a Hell of a war by bombing America and killing a lot of their Civilians, but say that they are only targeting the Militia group.

As an American what would you do? Would you not root the militia group, who are standing up for the counrty, the people, and their Canadian brothers?

Hmm... i just put yourself in an ordinary Lebanese citizens point of view there...and now you know why we (or most of us i hope) back up Hezbollah.

Kidman

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As I mentioned in the first thread you posted this, it sounds like a good Hollywood script. Unfortunately, this analogy doesn't work well. That fails to take into account the efforts for peace, the "alien" children being blown up by nailbombs, etc. The situation is far too complicated for this kind of fantastical analogy.

Efforts for peace? Hezbollah wanted a seize-fire from the beginning and wanted to negociate a trade for the soldiers. And children being blown up, why don't you look at what the Israelis have been doing to the Palestinian children for years... and look at the amount of innocent children Hezbollah has killed compared to how many innocent children Israel has killed in the attacks.

It would be cool, if they fought face to face like soldiers should, like Hezbollah is encouraging Israel to do.. instead Israel is flying planes and dropping bombs which Hezbollah can't do much about... and that's why so many innocent Lebanese people are dying...

Kidman

Kidman said:

Efforts for peace? Hezbollah wanted a seize-fire from the beginning and wanted to negociate a trade for the soldiers. And children being blown up, why don't you look at what the Israelis have been doing to the Palestinian children for years... and look at the amount of innocent children Hezbollah has killed compared to how many innocent children Israel has killed in the attacks.

It would be cool, if they fought face to face like soldiers should, like Hezbollah is encouraging Israel to do.. instead Israel is flying planes and dropping bombs which Hezbollah can't do much about... and that's why so many innocent Lebanese people are dying...

Kidman

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"Hezbollah wanted a cease-fire from the beginning and wanted to negotiate"...I find this statement, which I've read many times on this forum, to be possibly the silliest defense of Hezbollah I've yet encountered. Let me get this straight...Hezbollah, supposedly with the knowledge of the Lebanese government, crosses the border and kills 8 soldiers and kidnaps 2. Then Hezbollah wants a cease-fire? Yeah, I'm sure they would love to have a cease-fire, unfortunately an act of war is an act of war.
On the issue of who is killing whose children..isn't it enough that both sides are killing children? This tit-for-tat business is one of the primary reasons this conflict is still going on. If Israel kills 40 children and Hezbollah kills 10, is that somehow a moral victory for Hezbollah? C'mon.
Then you want to Israel to "fight fair". This is like the little boy on the playground who gets brave enough to push the big kid, then the big kid picks him up and throws him to the ground, and the little kid says.."Why don't you lose 80 pounds so I can pick you up, fight fair." :heated: ..okay, that is a bad analogy. In any case, Hezbollah brought this upon themselves and unfortunately on the Lebanese people.

Hezbollah wanted a seize-fire from the beginning

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But only till they wanted to restart agressions.

It would be cool, if they fought face to face like soldiers should, like Hezbollah is encouraging Israel to do.

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What? Hezbollah only fights gorilla stile. The stand no chance in a face to face fight.

Keltoi said:

"Hezbollah wanted a cease-fire from the beginning and wanted to negotiate"...I find this statement, which I've read many times on this forum, to be possibly the silliest defense of Hezbollah I've yet encountered. Let me get this straight...Hezbollah, supposedly with the knowledge of the Lebanese government, crosses the border and kills 8 soldiers and kidnaps 2. Then Hezbollah wants a cease-fire? Yeah, I'm sure they would love to have a cease-fire, unfortunately an act of war is an act of war.
On the issue of who is killing whose children..isn't it enough that both sides are killing children? This tit-for-tat business is one of the primary reasons this conflict is still going on. If Israel kills 40 children and Hezbollah kills 10, is that somehow a moral victory for Hezbollah? C'mon.
Then you want to Israel to "fight fair". This is like the little boy on the playground who gets brave enough to push the big kid, then the big kid picks him up and throws him to the ground, and the little kid says.."Why don't you lose 80 pounds so I can pick you up, fight fair." :heated: ..okay, that is a bad analogy. In any case, Hezbollah brought this upon themselves and unfortunately on the Lebanese people.

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its never crossed the border its the Israelis who did..in any case that doesnt explain why Israel is raining bombs on lebanon and destroying basic infrastructure.

you're a christian?? i find it hard to believe..maybe you're one those nutters who are rejoicing at all this misery and bloodshed because this would mean you get to have your party in the 'kingdom of God'

so you better pack all your bags and head off to meet your 'Lord' and 'Saviour' Jesus who seems to be so obssessed with the Jews..(according to your Scriptures)

enjoy your party..taraaaa!

Keltoi said:

"Hezbollah wanted a cease-fire from the beginning and wanted to negotiate"...I find this statement, which I've read many times on this forum, to be possibly the silliest defense of Hezbollah I've yet encountered. Let me get this straight...Hezbollah, supposedly with the knowledge of the Lebanese government, crosses the border and kills 8 soldiers and kidnaps 2. Then Hezbollah wants a cease-fire? Yeah, I'm sure they would love to have a cease-fire, unfortunately an act of war is an act of war.

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Of course, They didn't plan that Israel was going to go ahead and start bombing the crap out of lebanon and kill so many innocent people. They thought either Israel would come into Lebanon, on ground, and fight Hezbollah until they get their soldiers back, or they would make an exchage.

On the issue of who is killing whose children..isn't it enough that both sides are killing children? This tit-for-tat business is one of the primary reasons this conflict is still going on. If Israel kills 40 children and Hezbollah kills 10, is that somehow a moral victory for Hezbollah? C'mon.

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With the small amount of Children Hezbollah has killed, you can say that these killings were caused accidentally, and not was not part of Hezbollah's intentions. In fact, they try to keep away from killing the innocent people of Israel as much as possible, their Jihad rules are strict, and they must fight "only those who take arms and are fighting them" Killing an innocent person is against Islam, but i guess it's ok for the Zioinist Jews... because with the numbers that they are killing, you can say that they don't care and kill innocent people regardless.

Around 600 Lebanese people died, 32 being the Militia force.
Around 50 Israeli's have died, which around 30 are the Militia force.

Hezbollah are trying to target the militia, and the innocent people that died are cause accidentally and I can almost guarantee that any innocent person that Hezbollah has killed, whether they are jewish, christian, etc... They do Dua (prayer) for their souls. Hezbollah is not just after blood, they believe it is a glory to die in battle and are not afraid of death... they are afraid of Allah's judgement on them... and Allah will ask them if they killed innocent people intentially.

Then you want to Israel to "fight fair". This is like the little boy on the playground who gets brave enough to push the big kid, then the big kid picks him up and throws him to the ground, and the little kid says.."Why don't you lose 80 pounds so I can pick you up, fight fair." :heated: ..okay, that is a bad analogy. In any case, Hezbollah brought this upon themselves and unfortunately on the Lebanese people.

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It's more like the little boy is tired of getting pushed around, and ya, pushes the big kid. The only reason the big kid is so tough is because he has weapons that the little boy doesn't have. It's like me going up to you in a fight, and me pulling out a gun, does that take courage or is that something a coward would do?

Kidman

scentsofjannah said:

so you better pack all your bags and head off to meet your 'Lord' and 'Saviour' Jesus who seems to be so obssessed with the Jews..(according to your Scriptures)

enjoy your party..taraaaa!

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This has nothing to do with my religion, so if you want me to respect your religion and your belief in it, stick to a rational dialogue if you can.

Kidman said:

Maybe this might help so you can get a clearer view. I'm going use aliens as an example of the invaders. I posted this in another thread, it's a wrap-up on what is going on in Israel, Palestine, and Lebanon.

Say Aliens come into Canada, take 2/3rds of Canadian land and leave the rest to the Canadians. The Aliens are really strong and have tons of money. They regularly bring Canadian's down by destroying their infastructures, and imprisoning, torturing, killing their people, because they know if the Canadian's get some good power that they would fight for their land back. So the Aliens keep killing and has their state in check basically. Then the Aliens even mess with America, and actually take some of the Northern parts of america (if America was weaker of course)... So in turn a self-made militia group forms in America and fight off the Aliens in their land... but Aliens still get a piece of the land and a every once in a while go into america and fight with the militia group. Time goes on, America watches as the Aliens accross the border keep killing their Canadian brothers, and watch as the Aliens still have over 10,000 Americans and their Canadian brothers in prisons. So the american militia group comes up with a plan to get those soldiers out, by going into the Alien occupied territories of Canada and taking two Alien's hostage in a way to get the Aliens to free the poor prisoners. In turn, the Alien's launch a Hell of a war by bombing America and killing a lot of their Civilians, but say that they are only targeting the Militia group.

As an American what would you do? Would you not root the militia group, who are standing up for the counrty, the people, and their Canadian brothers?

Hmm... i just put yourself in an ordinary Lebanese citizens point of view there...and now you know why we (or most of us i hope) back up Hezbollah.

Kidman

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I miss the part: The US people and Canadians (naturally fictive to your story) cannot bring up really an army, thats why they send out everywhere in the world suicide killers and terrorists to spread fear and pain to innocent people, like blowing up subways, flying jets in sky scrapers, etc.. (list is long)

I really hate this unbalanced posts !

guyabano said:

I miss the part: The US people and Canadians (naturally fictive to your story) cannot bring up really an army, thats why they send out everywhere in the world suicide killers and terrorists to spread fear and pain to innocent people, like blowing up subways, flying jets in sky scrapers, etc.. (list is long)

I really hate this unbalanced posts !

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Actually, Hezbollah was one of the first people to come out publically and condemn the 911 attacks and the London Bombings. I cannot say the same about the Palestinian movements, because they are known to carry out some suicide bombings which did kill innocent civilians, but they did that only against Israel and didn't go anywhere abouts the world.

I think you got the Hizbollah and Palestinians mixed up with the Saudi's... Hezbollah never left Lebanon except for going into Israel, which i explained why... and Palestinians (Hamas) only carry their attacks in Israel and Palestine, please give better examples how they spread fear and pain to innocent civilians around the world.

Kidman

Palestinians (Hamas) only carry their attacks in Israel and Palestine

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Do you forget about the PLO and others? Or do you want to limit to Hamas?

Hezbollah did bomb the Israeli embassy in Argentina.

wilberhum said:

Do you forget about the PLO? Or do you want to limit to Hamas?

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Go ahead, what have they done outside of Palestina and Israel? I don't know much about the PLO... except that they were run by Yassir Arafat, and they accept Israel's right to exist, even though they have had many conferntations with Israel, but that was mostly before 1980...

Kidman

Kidman said:

Go ahead, what have they done outside of Palestina and Israel? I don't know much about the PLO... except that they were run by Yassir Arafat, and they accept Israel's right to exist, even though they have had many conferntations with Israel, but that was mostly before 1980...

Kidman

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This is what I found, but then that was only 5 min of research.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLO

In the late 1960s and early 1970s, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the second-largest PLO faction after al-Fatah, carried out a number of attacks and plane hijackings mostly directed at Israel, most infamously the Dawson’s Field hijackings, which precipitated the Black September in Jordan crisis.
The Munich massacre of Israeli athletes at the 1972 Olympics was carried out by the Black September group, which was allegedly affiliated with the PLO. This group also hijacked a plane flying from Belgium to Tel Aviv.
In order to settle a wrongful death lawsuit, the PLO has paid an undisclosed sum to the daughters of Leon Klinghoffer, who in 1985 was murdered aboard the cruise ship Achille Laugo during a hijacking by the Palestine Liberation Front.

kidman,
i had actually resolved not to even look at the "world affairs" section today (i am really upset about what is going on) and certainly not to post anything.
but this thread i just can't leave alone. :hiding:
the thing about the israel-palestine conflict is that VIOLENCE IS NOT WORKING,
it has done nothing but bring more suffering to the people, on both sides, though the palestinians have certainly suffered much more than the israelis but this doesn't mean the israelis haven't suffered also.
it hasn't worked and it never will, yet neither side seems to get the message! their only solution is because it isn't working, do more violence. if this was an individual, one could say this is neurotic behaviour.
i think this whole thing is very tragic and it just seems very hopeless to me.
let's see if i can at least keep my mouth shut in this section for the rest of the day.

snakelegs said:

kidman,
i had actually resolved not to even look at the "world affairs" section today (i am really upset about what is going on) and certainly not to post anything.
but this thread i just can't leave alone. :hiding:
the thing about the israel-palestine conflict is that VIOLENCE IS NOT WORKING,
it has done nothing but bring more suffering to the people, on both sides, though the palestinians have certainly suffered much more than the israelis but this doesn't mean the israelis haven't suffered also.
it hasn't worked and it never will, yet neither side seems to get the message! their only solution is because it isn't working, do more violence. if this was an individual, one could say this is neurotic behaviour.
i think this whole thing is very tragic and it just seems very hopeless to me.
let's see if i can at least keep my mouth shut in this section for the rest of the day.

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I totally agree, violence is not going to win in this one, unless Israel man's up and goes by ground force, that might do something. Other then that, all they are doing is shooting at "suspected targets"

Hezbollah is not going to go into Israel, Israel is not going to go into Lebanon (on ground), so they have to come up with a solution or they are just going to keep throwing bombs accross the border. Israel can do far more damage, as we have seen, and Hezbollah's Leader, Sayed Hassan keeps urging Israel to come and fight (on ground). Israel keeps bombing from above, the only thing Hezbollah can do to show any type of retaliation is to shoot rockets back into Israel...

Israel bombs at random times, 24 hours of the day. Hezbollah shoots during specific times, and the Israeli's know this so they go into the bunkers during these times which makes their innocent civilian death toll lower. I believe Hezbollah does this on purpose, because every innocent civilian that Hezbollah kills, goes against their record on the day of judgement.. and they believe this entirely.

Here's the article that proves that Hezbollah shoots only specific times:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060731...phLOS2s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

"Sitting outside public shelter 110, in a tank-top and flip-flops, he smokes a cigarette and glances at his watch. It's almost 4 p.m. "This is their time," he says.
Sure enough, just moments later, there is the familiar whistle followed by a loud explosion nearby. He's already safely in the shelter as another Katyusha rocket slams into his hometown."

So, all Hezbollah is doing is showing that they have the power to keep up and keep fighting, but they really don't want to harm innocent people.. unlike Israel who doesn't give a crap for innocent lives.

If Israel wants their soldiers back, all they have to do is give back the innocent lebanese civilians they took in Lebanon... which was the reason Hezbollah did what they did in the first place, that's all they wanted.... and they wont give back any soldiers until they get their people back... and this will put an end to the fighting, for now.

Kidman

If Israel wants their soldiers back, all they have to do is give back the innocent lebanese civilians they took in Lebanon

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And then sit back and wait for the next Hezbollah attack.

Hezbollah's goal is not to get back some prisioners, it is to destroy Isreal.

Kidman said:

Efforts for peace? Hezbollah wanted a seize-fire from the beginning and wanted to negociate a trade for the soldiers.
Kidman

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That statement is laughable! Hezbollah wants war and raids Israel when they wish, and then when they get pounded into the ground they want 'peace'....

You win the award for dumbest comment of the day.

Kidman said:

Efforts for peace? Hezbollah wanted a seize-fire from the beginning and wanted to negociate a trade for the soldiers. And children being blown up, why don't you look at what the Israelis have been doing to the Palestinian children for years... and look at the amount of innocent children Hezbollah has killed compared to how many innocent children Israel has killed in the attacks.

It would be cool, if they fought face to face like soldiers should, like Hezbollah is encouraging Israel to do.. instead Israel is flying planes and dropping bombs which Hezbollah can't do much about... and that's why so many innocent Lebanese people are dying...

Kidman

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Why are you bothering its so blatent denial they say oh you blow up israli children with nail bombs thats why its ok to bomb lebanon and palastine etc i mean this makes no sense as the numbers of sufffering are by miles greater in palastine and lebanon so how can this justfiy anything!?? 50 die in israel and 400 die in lebanon so!


after seeing such numbers and children suffering from phosphurus burns they still have no sympathy so why bother? they are in denial no matter how much any of us try the hate is way too deep!