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ManchesterFolk
08-03-2006, 06:21 PM
Pro-Israeli sources and authors?

Check the sources I provided again.

Hell go look it up online.

13th "Handschar" division خنجر

(Remember that the 20,000 were in that one division. There were more than just 1 division.)

Over 20,000 Muslims recruited by him to join the SS responsible for orchestrating mass murder killing 6 million Jews. And 6 million non-jews like homosexuals, gypsies, blacks... ect.
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kadafi
08-03-2006, 06:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
[i][countless Jewish soldiers served under the Nazi Regime.
/I]

Granted they probably would have been shot if they refused service...
This is an assumption and easily debunked by the mere fact that these soldiers served the regime willingly and out of loyalty.

Regards
Reply

Lamaggad
08-03-2006, 06:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
Untrue. Please give me the resolutions with a link to the UN site proving Israel has not implemented or begun to implement law after a UN resolution which can be considered international law.
he wasn't takling about UN, he's talking about zionists attitude...
Lebonon on the other hand think they are above the law by not implementing resolution 1559 which calls for the immediate disarment of Hezbollah's armed wing. Lebonon is in violation of international law with each bullet Hezbollah fires in there territory.
You have to be fair in your judgment lavikor201.. you can't keep looking at israel as if they are angels and every one else is crap... this is what the documentary means when they say zionist israelli's think they're above the law.
speaking about UN and resolutions...
what about Resolution # 425 in 1978 that Calls on Israel to halt IMMEDIATELY its military operations against Lebanese territorial integrity and WITHDRAW forthwith its forces from all Lebanese territory.

it seems you have missed my post wbout this... read it please and respond to it... http://www.islamicboard.com/432053-post24.html

Come back when you understand Jewish law, and not an English interpretation of a Jewish song. PM me and I will give you a little Jewish info, and no the so called 'facts' you think you learn about Jews in your mosque or any Jew hating website.
he's talking about a documentary that shows that... please keep religion and mosques out of it... we have suffered allot from the zionists state that's why every body says that in their documentaries, websites, e-mails and many other sources...
ask your government to stop that attitude and then we will stop saying that.

you are more than welcome to go one day to a muslim mosque so you can hear your self what we say over there about this conflict.

about Jewish laws, YES Jewish law states that Jews are the chosen people for God, and they are the sons of God.
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Geronimo
08-03-2006, 06:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by kadafi
It is widely known that the Zionists had solid connection with the Axis Evil extending to Japan. Remember that if al-Husseini did not severe these ties, the Zionists would have been responsible for many grave crimes.

In addition, it is wrong to assume that Jews and Nazis were never on good terms since many countless Jewish soldiers served under the Nazi Regime.
Where's your proof? The Nazis were swept into power by blaming the old leaders and the Jews for losing WWI. Like I said read Mein Kempf there's a lot of quotes in there from The Protocols of the elders of Zion. You gotta be a raging anti-semite to believe that crap.
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Geronimo
08-03-2006, 06:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
[I][countless Jewish soldiers served under the Nazi Regime.
/I]

Granted they probably would have been shot if they refused service...
Don't believe that bs. They never served because they were considered inferior. Hell they didn't even want Arabs and didn't let the Arab divisions ran by Husayni join them til things started to get dire for them.
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ManchesterFolk
08-03-2006, 06:29 PM
about Jewish laws, YES Jewish law states that Jews are the chosen people for God, and they are the sons of God.
Wrong. Go read a book. They never claim they are the sons of God or anything like that. Complete and total propaganda.

In Judaism, the belief is that they were chosen by God to have the honor of following his 613 Laws from the Torah.

It does not mean they believe they are higher. It just believes that they have been chosen by God to follow the Torah and its laws.

Nowhere does it say they are 'sons of god' as you say.

What you said Lammagad is complete and total BS and are unmistakable lies with no source except the insane voices that talk to you in your head.


This is an assumption and easily debunked by the mere fact that these soldiers served the regime willingly and out of loyalty.
That is completly insane.

The Jews were forced to burn and bury the ashes of there own dead or they would be killed. They never served out loyalty.

Your insane logic, and lack of facts or any reasonable argument is very aparent.

You sound like a History revisionist/ Neo Nazi/ KKK member, because they say the exact same things. They also run around yelling 'white power'
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kadafi
08-03-2006, 06:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
Do you know what was going on in Germany in 1935? If I thought it was gonna save my people I would have set up the agency also. In the Nurenberg trials it was proven that they had planned on shipping them all to Palestine to execute them there. After Husayni made a big stink about it they abandoned that plan and changed the location to Britian once they had over ran it. After the battle of Britian the Germans realized this wasn't going to happen so they had a meeting in Berlin, in the Wannsee Villa on January 20, 1942 which is where the ovens and the gas chambers come in. See I'm not one of those people you cann just throw stuff out there and see if it sticks. I actually study history as a hobby.
Geronimo, your historical inaccuracies are grave and yet potray them as real events.

The Jewish Agency that collobrated with the Nazi regime intended to save the Jewish people and that is correct, however, Kasztner who at that time was the leader of the ZR has helped the SS transfer Jewish people to Auswitch for the sake of saving a few lives. In addition to that, the JA has testified in favour several Nazi War criminals in exchange for bribery.

One should attempt to read Lenni Brenner's book Post-Ugandan Zionism On Trial (2 Volumes)

http://student.cs.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabo...=true&aid=1246
Reply

kadafi
08-03-2006, 06:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
Where's your proof? The Nazis were swept into power by blaming the old leaders and the Jews for losing WWI. Like I said read Mein Kempf there's a lot of quotes in there from The Protocols of the elders of Zion. You gotta be a raging anti-semite to believe that crap.
Geronimo, refrain from insulting me as this undermines your credibility.

It has been reported that approx. 150,000 Jewish soldiers served the Nazi Regime. Moreover, this has nothing do with the 'Protocols of Zion', rather I am stating the mere fact that countless Jewish soldiers served the Nazis.

Here is a review hosted on the Kansas University website:

http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/righit.html
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ManchesterFolk
08-03-2006, 06:42 PM
You obviously do not understand Jewish Law.

If your mother is Jewish than you are 100% Jewish. If your father is Jewish and your mother is not than your 0% Jewish By Jewish Law.

About everyone of these soldiers is described as a 'half jew'

You cannot be a half Jew. They were all NOT JEWS because if there mother was Jewish they were 100% jewish and they would not have been aloud access to the Armyt because they would have a citation on all there papers.

Your ignorance towards Jewish law, and the fact that you do not have much knowledge is very suprising. I though you had more of a grasp on cultures outside of islam. I guess you do not.
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Dahir
08-03-2006, 06:44 PM
Okay, let's get a few things STRAIGHT:

Hitler exterminated 12 million people.
Israel killed a few thousand at max [in self defense].
Hitler was provoked by no one to do what he did.
Israel was provoked by the PLO and Hamas.
Hitler was a single mad man who ruled a nation with tyranny, not caring about anyone but himself.
Israel is a whole, mature nation with needs, wants, and humility.


Everyone uses the Nazi blame game as their alibi when they are being beaten in a game of international chess; the Palestinians clearly failed themselves, so they call the Israelis nazis. Who are these name-callers, the ADL??
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searchingsoul
08-03-2006, 06:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dahir
Okay, let's get a few things STRAIGHT:

Hitler exterminated 12 million people.
Israel killed a few thousand at max [in self defense].
Hitler was provoked by no one to do what he did.
Israel was provoked by the PLO and Hamas.
Hitler was a single mad man who ruled a nation with tyranny, not caring about anyone but himself.
Israel is a whole, mature nation with needs, wants, and humility.


Everyone uses the Nazi blame game as their alibi when they are being beaten in a game of international chess; the Palestinians clearly failed themselves, so they call the Israelis nazis. Who are these name-callers, the ADL??
This cubicle rat makes sense.
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kadafi
08-03-2006, 06:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
You obviously do not understand Jewish Law.

If your mother is Jewish than you are 100% Jewish. If your father is Jewish and your mother is not than your 0% Jewish By Jewish Law.

About everyone of these soldiers is described as a 'half jew'
Hello ManchesterFolk, before you start splurring and accusing me of ignorance, it would have been best if you had read the review thoroughly.

Rigg reveals that a startlingly large number of German military men were classified by the Nazis as Jews or "partial-Jews" (Mischlinge), in the wake of racial laws first enacted in the mid-1930s.
What this means is that according to the German military system, anyone who had a non-Jewish father was still classified as a partial-Jew despite the fact that his mother was Jewish. Only those with both Jewish parents were described as fully Jews.


Regards
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Dahir
08-03-2006, 06:53 PM
This cubicle rat makes sense.
Well, the cubicle rat knows the difference between good and evil, nation and warmonger.
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searchingsoul
08-03-2006, 06:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dahir
Well, the cubicle rat knows the difference between good and evil, nation and warmonger.
Yes, you do.:)
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IbnAbdulHakim
08-03-2006, 06:57 PM
Who knows the true history of israel? Anyone? Maybe someone would like to explain their reasons behind the war on palestine/syria and lebonen? Because i saw a documentary which may not have explained the truth, so lets hear it?
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Woodrow
08-03-2006, 07:04 PM
Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
You obviously do not understand Jewish Law.

If your mother is Jewish than you are 100% Jewish. If your father is Jewish and your mother is not than your 0% Jewish By Jewish Law.

About everyone of these soldiers is described as a 'half jew'





format_quote Originally Posted by kadafi
Hello ManchesterFolk, before you start splurring and accusing me of ignorance, it would have been best if you had read the review thoroughly.

Rigg reveals that a startlingly large number of German military men were classified by the Nazis as Jews or "partial-Jews" (Mischlinge), in the wake of racial laws first enacted in the mid-1930s.
What this means is that according to the German military system, anyone who had a non-Jewish father was still classified as a partial-Jew despite the fact that his mother was Jewish. Only those with both Jewish parents were described as fully Jews.


Regards
Let me see if I understand this correctly. According to the source quoted by Kadafi, the German Army considered many of it's military as half Jewish. But, looking at Manchesterfolks explanation of Jewish law, it would mean that many of them would be 100% Jewish under Jewish Law. Interesting thought at the least.
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ManchesterFolk
08-03-2006, 07:07 PM
Rigg reveals that a startlingly large number of German military men were classified by the Nazis as Jews or "partial-Jews" (Mischlinge), in the wake of racial laws first enacted in the mid-1930s.
It is irrelevant. By Jewish law they were not considered Jews. Because they were not Jews. By Jewish law there is no such thing as a 'partial jew'..

Therefore these soldiers were not Jewish no matter what the "German Military Source" says.

What this means is that according to the German military system, anyone who had a non-Jewish father was still classified as a partial-Jew despite the fact that his mother was Jewish. Only those with both Jewish parents were described as fully Jews.
Your lack of understanding shows.

There is no such thing as a 'partial jew' no matter how many times you try and explain it with your Nazi/German sources it is irrelevent.

The soldiers were not Jewish. By Jewish law they were gentiles, goys, (NON JEWS)

There is no way to get around it.

Every time that article tries to explain about the 'half jews' i sigh, because they obviously have no understanding of jewish law.

They only took the time to look into nazi records. Maybe they should have educated themselves on Jewish law Before they completly embarassed themseleves by not understanding a very simple concept.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. According to the source quoted by Kadafi, the German Army considered many of it's military as half Jewish. But, looking at Manchesterfolks explanation of Jewish law, it would mean that many of them would be 100% Jewish under Jewish Law. Interesting thought at the least.
Incorrect.

All the soldiers who were considered 'half jews' were really not Jews at all.

If you were 100% jewish in Europe, you had to where a star of david on your shirt, and had citations on your documents and information including identification.

Therefore all of the soldiers who are being described as half Jews were not Jews at all. None of the soldiers aloud in the German Army were even a 1% Jewish according to jewish law.
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Woodrow
08-03-2006, 07:13 PM
Since it seems that most of those described as being half-Jewish under German law had Jewish mothers, does that mean they were 100% Jews?
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kadafi
08-03-2006, 07:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Let me see if I understand this correctly. According to the source quoted by Kadafi, the German Army considered many of it's military as half Jewish. But, looking at Manchesterfolks explanation of Jewish law, it would mean that many of them would be 100% Jewish under Jewish Law. Interesting thought at the least.
Hehe, spot on!



format_quote Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
It is irrelevant. By Jewish law they were not considered Jews. Because they were not Jews. By Jewish law there is no such thing as a 'partial jew'..

Therefore these soldiers were not Jewish no matter what the "German Military Source" says.



Your lack of understanding shows.

There is no such thing as a 'partial jew' no matter how many times you try and explain it with your Nazi/German sources it is irrelevent.

The soldiers were not Jewish. By Jewish law they were gentiles, goys, (NON JEWS)

There is no way to get around it.

Every time that article tries to explain about the 'half jews' i sigh, because they obviously have no understanding of jewish law.

They only took the time to look into nazi records. Maybe they should have educated themselves on Jewish law Before they completly embarassed themseleves by not understanding a very simple concept.
Hello ManchesterFolks

Sadly, you have not [fully] grasped what I have stated in my last post so allow me to take a different and yet simpler approach.

The German System did not operate under the Jewish Law, correct? So thus, their definition of Jewish varies from the Orthodox Jewish System.

According to their system, a Jewish person is one having both Jewish parents while a partial Jew is one having non-Jewish father which according to the Jewish definition is still fully Jewish.

In other words, Nazi's partial Jew definition = Full Jew definition according to the Jewish Law.

Regards
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ManchesterFolk
08-03-2006, 07:15 PM
A Jew who was 100% Jewish was not aloud in the German Army because he was 'inferior' only in special cases did the Nazi's use the talent of a Jew to develop something and they always had a gun to the Jews head.

Therefore there were no Jews who are considered Jews by Jewish Law that were in the German Army by choice.
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Woodrow
08-03-2006, 07:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
A Jew who was 100% Jewish was not aloud in the German Army because he was 'inferior' only in special cases did the Nazi's use the talent of a Jew to develop something and they always had a gun to the Jews head.

Therefore there were no Jews who are considered Jews by Jewish Law that were in the German Army by choice.
Please make up your mind. I thought you just said if a person had a Jewish mother he was 100% Jewish under Jewish law. True they were not considered fully Jewish under German Law, but they were under Jewish law.
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kadafi
08-03-2006, 07:25 PM
Ay ay

It seems ManchesterFolk has decided to embark on the denial path.

His conflicting and contradictory statements prove that is not quite ready for a productive discussion but only wishes to vehemently defend his refuted position that no Jews served under the Nazi Regime. Any observer would affirm the explicit denial of ManchesterFolk.

Let us see what the credible reviewers have said about this reports:

"Through videotaped interviews, painstaking attention to personnel files, and banal documents not normally consulted by historians, and spurred by a keen sense of personal mission, Rigg has turned up an unexplored and confounding chapter in the history of the Holocaust. The extent of his findings has surprised scholars."--Warren Hoge, New York Times

"The revelation that Germans of Jewish blood, knowing the Nazi regime for what it was, served Hitler as uniformed members of his armed forces must come as a profound shock. It will surprise even professional historians of the Nazi years." --John Keegan, author of The Face of Battle and The Second World War

"Startling and unexpected, Rigg's study conclusively demonstrates the degree of flexibility in German policy toward the Mischlinge, the extent of Hitler's involvement, and, most importantly, that not all who served in the armed forces were anti-Semitic, even as their service aided the killing process."--Michael Berenbaum, author of The World Must Know: The History of the Holocaust

"Rigg's extensive knowledge and the preliminary conclusions drawn from his research impressed me greatly. I firmly believe that his in-depth treatment of the subject of German soldiers of Jewish descent in the Wehrmacht will lead to new perspectives on this portion of 20th century German military history."--Helmut Schmidt, Former Chancellor of Germany


"An impressively researched work with important implications for hotly debated questions. Rigg tells some exquisitely poignant stories of individual human experiences that complicate our picture of state and society in the Third Reich."--Nathan A. Stoltzfus, Florida State University, author of Resistance of the Heart: Intermarriage and the Rosenstrasse Protest in Nazi Germany

"An impressive work filled with interesting stories. . . . By helping us better understand Nazi racial policy at the margins--i.e., its impact on certain members of the German military--Rigg's study clarifies the central problems of Nazi Jewish policies overall."--Norman Naimark, Stanford University, author of Fires of Hatred: Ethnic Cleansing in Twentieth-Century Europe

"An illuminating and provocative study that merits a wide readership and is sure to be much discussed."--Dennis E. Showalter, Colorado College, author of Tannenberg: Clash of Empires
"An outstanding job of research and analysis. Rigg's book will add a great deal to our understanding of the German military, of the place of Jews and people of Jewish descent in the Nazi state, and of the Holocaust. It forces us to deal with the full, complex range of possible actions and reactions by individuals caught up in the Nazi system."--Geoffrey P. Megargee, author of Inside Hitler's High Command

"With the skill of a master detective, Bryan Rigg reveals the surprising and largely unknown story of Germans of Jewish origins in the Nazi military. His work contributes to our understanding of the complexity of faith and identity in the Third Reich."--Paula E. Hyman, Yale University, author of Gender and Assimilation in Modern Jewish History and The Jews of Modern France

"A major piece of scholarship which traces the peculiar twists and turns of Nazi racial policy toward men in the Wehrmacht, often in the highest ranks, who had partly Jewish backgrounds. Rigg has uncovered personal stories and private archives which literally nobody knew existed. His book will be an important contribution to German history."--Jonathan Steinberg, University of Pennsylvania, author of All or Nothing: The Axis and the Holocaust 1941-1943

"An original, groundbreaking, and significant contribution to the history of the Wehrmacht and Nazi Germany."--James S. Corum, School of Advanced Air Power Studies, author of The Roots of Blitzkrieg and The Luftwaffe

"Rigg's work has discovered new academic territory."--Manfred Messerschmidt, Freiburg University, author of Die Wehrmacht im NS-Staat (The Wehrmacht in the Nazi State)

"Rigg's bracing and unintimidated study lays bare the contradiction, confusion and expedience that governed Mischlinge policy and the maiming cost to those whose lives were burdened by anxiety, guilt and collusion. In the end we must be grateful for his book, a penetrating light cast on some of the murkier corners of the human psyche."--Michael Skakun, Aufbau

"Rigg has opened brand new territory for historians and students of war, offering new insight into the Nazi mentality on race."--World War II Magazine

"Rigg has done a very significant piece of historical research and writing."--Milt Rosenberg, WGN Radio, Chicago


"Rigg has written a truly important history. It is original, it has outstanding scholarship, and there is plenty of it!"--James F. Tent, author of In the Shadow of the Holocaust: Nazi Persecution of Jewish-Christian Germans

"A brilliant and extremely disturbing work of masterful historical research. A must read for everyone. It raises more moral dilemmas than one can answer."--Steve Pieczenik, former Deputy Assistant Secretary of State and co-creator of the best selling novels and TV series OP-Center and Net Force
Regards
Reply

Geronimo
08-03-2006, 07:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by kadafi
Geronimo, your historical inaccuracies are grave and yet potray them as real events.

The Jewish Agency that collobrated with the Nazi regime intended to save the Jewish people and that is correct, however, Kasztner who at that time was the leader of the ZR has helped the SS transfer Jewish people to Auswitch for the sake of saving a few lives. In addition to that, the JA has testified in favour several Nazi War criminals in exchange for bribery.

One should attempt to read Lenni Brenner's book Post-Ugandan Zionism On Trial (2 Volumes)

http://student.cs.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabo...=true&aid=1246
Do you know about Lenni Brenner? Lenni Brenner is an American Marxist historian. Do you know how Marxist feel about Jews? Read the Marxist Manifesto. This man renounce his own Judism
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ManchesterFolk
08-03-2006, 07:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Please make up your mind. I thought you just said if a person had a Jewish mother he was 100% Jewish under Jewish law. True they were not considered fully Jewish under German Law, but they were under Jewish law.
If the mother is Jewish than they are considered Jewish under German Law.

Can you show me the law of the German Army saying that 'partial jews' as they called them were aloud?

Please give me the quote and the link.

I would like to see where it says that any of these Jews who had mothers that were Jewish were aloud in the German Army.


Please give me a link to an official or credible source showing that Jews considered jewish by Jewish law were aloud in the Army.

I do not believe they were aloud to be in the army.
Reply

nennar
08-03-2006, 07:33 PM
salaam!

geronimo!!!! you seem to know so much about the history off the jews , but not so much about you own history....... hmmmm
Our land is everything to us... I will tell you one of the things we remember on our land. We remember that our grandfathers paid for it - with their lives."

From the 1927 Grand Council of American Indians

"The white people, who are trying to make us over into their image, they want us to be what they call "assimilated," bringing the Indians into the mainstream and destroying our own way of life and our own cultural patterns. They believe we should be contented like those whose concept of happiness is materialistic and greedy, which is very different from our way.
We want freedom from the white man rather than to be intergrated. We don't want any part of the establishment, we want to be free to raise our children in our religion, in our ways, to be able to hunt and fish and live in peace. We don't want power, we don't want to be congressmen, or bankers....we want to be ourselves. We want to have our heritage, because we are the owners of this land and because we belong here.

The white man says, there is freedom and justice for all. We have had "freedom and justice," and that is why we have been almost exterminated. We shall not forget this."
Crazy Horse - Sioux

"I was hostile to the white man...We preferred hunting to a life of idleness on our reservations. At times we did not get enough to eat and we were not allowed to hunt. All we wanted was peace and to be let alone. Soldiers came...in the winter..and destroyed our villages. Then Long Hair (Custer) came...They said we massacred him, but he would have done the same to us. Our first impulse was to escape...but we were so hemmed in we had to fight. After that I lived in peace, but the government would not let me alone. I was not allowed to remain quiet. I was tired of fighting...They tried to confine me..and a soldier ran his bayonet into me. I have spoken.
Spotted Tail

"This war did not spring up on our land, this war was brought upon us by the children of the Great Father who came to take our land without a price, and who, in our land, do a great many evil things... This war has come from robbery - from the stealing of our land."
John Wooden Legs, Cheyenne

"Our land is everything to us... I will tell you one of the things we remember on our land. We remember that our grandfathers paid for it - with their lives."
so in the end after all your relativs died.... you sold the land ..... ???
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kadafi
08-03-2006, 07:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
Do you know about Lenni Brenner? Lenni Brenner is an American Marxist historian. Do you know how Marxist feel about Jews? Read the Marxist Manifesto. This man renounce his own Judism
Geronimo, have you failed to identify that Lenni Brenner is a full Jew according to the Jewish Law. In addition, Lenni Brenner is known to be a strong advocate against Zionism and not the Jews, further, Marxism is incompatible with Zionism and not Judaism as you might have asserted.

Regards
Reply

Woodrow
08-03-2006, 07:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
If the mother is Jewish than they are considered Jewish under German Law.

Can you show me the law of the German Army saying that 'partial jews' as they called them were aloud?

Please give me the quote and the link.

I would like to see where it says that any of these Jews who had mothers that were Jewish were aloud in the German Army.


Please give me a link to an official or credible source showing that Jews considered jewish by Jewish law were aloud in the Army.

I do not believe they were aloud to be in the army.
I will find the sources. I had many German Jewish Friends that survived the Holocaust and heard first hand from them their stories of what they considered to be Jews under Jewish law serving in the German Army. Since those folks are now long dead I am trying to find up to date documentation. In the mean time here is an interesting note about Jewish soldiers serving as Nazi Allies.

Just a footnote in the historybooks. But could be interesting for people like IDFM203 and others that seems to think that all europeans are anti-semitics no matter what. Everything is not just black and white. Note that this just is about the finnish soldiers that were jews, not the civilian jews nor the Soviet POW´s that happened to be jews.

1.) The Winter War

In 1939 there was some 1700 Jews in Finland. Approximately 260 Finnish Jews participated in the Winter War, 200 of whom served at the front. There were also several Jewish volunteers coming from Europe, some of them desperately seeking a way to escape Nazi influence. Jewishness was not emphasised in the army; anti-Semitism was not an issue, and neither was the war particularly problematic for the Jews ideologically, for Finland was merely seen as defending itself against an attack by the Soviet Union. The war united the Jews with Finland more strongly than anything before, and it has been said that with their effort, they proved they truly were Finns

2.) The Continuation War

In the summer of 1941, Finland joined the war Germany had started against the Soviet Union. In this Continuation War the loyalty of Finnish Jews was put to test. Nevertheless, the Jews fought like everyone else. The Jewish magazine Makkabi declared in December 1942 that they were fighting “for the freedom and independence of Finland”. Relationships with the Germans were described as correct, even friendly. Most Jews spoke German, which may have contributed to friendships being formed. Jewishness of these soldiers was not hidden from the Germans, and there even was a field synagogue. Furloughs were given for Sabbaths, and some came from considerable distances to attend. The Germans were aware of the synagogue but did not interfere. Some of the Jewish soldiers even liked to proclaim their religion to provoke the Germans, whose reactions were mainly surprised but not particularly negative. When asked about their Jewish soldiers, Finnish superiors usually defended them, saying they were no different from other Finns. Jewish medical officers treated German patients and saved their lives, even risking their own. Several Jews were awarded German decorations, and no instance is known of German soldiers refusing to co-operate with Finnish Jewish officers. During the two wars, 23 Finnish Jews were killed in action. As a tribute to their memory, their names are published annually in the Jewish Calendar of the Bicur Cholim Society in Helsinki.

More about the finnish jewish soldiers during world war 2:

http://www.uta.fi/~tuulikki.vuonokar...1viimeisin.rtf
http://www.finemb.org.il/Historia.htm
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/vjw/Finland.html
Reply

Geronimo
08-03-2006, 07:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by nennar
salaam!

geronimo!!!! you seem to know so much about the history off the jews , but not so much about you own history....... hmmmm










so in the end after all your relativs died.... you sold the land ..... ???
Actually my relatives are alive. I just talked to my granny yesterday. As for not knowing about my own people, have you ever heard of plain Indians? Did you know those tribes have a different philosophy as the ones in the midwest? Have you ever had buyers remorse? At the time they thought they were making a good deal. How hard is that to understand?
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ManchesterFolk
08-03-2006, 07:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by kadafi
Geronimo, have you failed to identify that Lenni Brenner is a full Jew according to the Jewish Law. In addition, Lenni Brenner is known to be a strong advocate against Zionism and not the Jews, further, Marxism is incompatible with Zionism and not Judaism as you might have asserted.

Regards
Now Now Kadafi... You think you know everything about Jewish Law all of a sudden?

Brenner was born into an Orthodox Jewish family. He became an atheist at age 12 and a Marxist at age 15.
Study this sentence very carefuly...

Once you become an Atheist. Or in other words declare that there is no such thing as God, you have destroyed your 'Jewishness' for say. To denounce the reality of God existing is in fact one of if not the worst sins of Judaism, and I believe you must convert back if you declare you do not believe in God, and then wish to come back to Judaism.

So in a sense if what I have learned in my classes is correct, by Jewish standards if he really was an Atheist at one point of his life, he is therrfore no Jewish unless he converted back which is highly unlikly since he became a Marxist.
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scentsofjannah
08-03-2006, 07:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
Do you know about Lenni Brenner? Lenni Brenner is an American Marxist historian. Do you know how Marxist feel about Jews? Read the Marxist Manifesto. This man renounce his own Judism
he renounced Judaism..? so what that makes him a self-hating jews accoridng to you?..wasnt Karl Marx also an ex-jew..Marxists are anti religion..they think its the 'opium of the masses'
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Geronimo
08-03-2006, 07:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by kadafi
Geronimo, have you failed to identify that Lenni Brenner is a full Jew according to the Jewish Law. In addition, Lenni Brenner is known to be a strong advocate against Zionism and not the Jews, further, Marxism is incompatible with Zionism and not Judaism as you might have asserted.

Regards
No he isn't a Jew. He renounced his faith. Essentially he's an Atheist. As for Marx it don't think he seemed to high on Jews

What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money

If the Jews want to become free, they should profess belief not in Christianity, but in the dissolution of Christianity, in the dissolution of religion in general, that is to say, in enlightenment, criticism and its consequence, free humanity

The Christian has to surmount only one stage, namely, that of his religion, in order to give up religion altogether, and therefore to become free. The Jew, on the other hand, has to break not only with his Jewish nature, but also with the development towards perfecting his religion, a development which has remained alien to him

The Jew contributes nothing to mankind if he himself disregards his narrow law, if he invalidates his entire Judaism
We recognize in Judaism, therefore, a general anti-social element of the present time, an element which through historical development - to which in this harmful respect the Jews have zealously contributed - has been brought to its present high level, at which it must necessarily begin to disintegrate.
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kadafi
08-03-2006, 07:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk

Study this sentence very carefuly...

Once you become an Atheist. Or in other words declare that there is no such thing as God, you have destroyed your 'Jewishness' for say. To denounce the reality of God existing is in fact one of if not the worst sins of Judaism, and I believe you must convert back if you declare you do not believe in God, and then wish to come back to Judaism.

So in a sense if what I have learned in my classes is correct, by Jewish standards if he really was an Atheist at one point of his life, he is therrfore no Jewish unless he converted back which is highly unlikly since he became a Marxist.
Hello ManchesterFolk

You seem to have missed the gist of my previous reply and I am not suprised.

Lenni Brenner is considered a secular Jew as the many Jewish people in USA or Israel identify them with secular and yet remain unaffliated with any religion and are still identified as Jews.

However, I have side-tracked from the main topic, namely the Jewish Nazi Soldiers :)
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Woodrow
08-03-2006, 07:57 PM
Rigg brings up the inevitable question of what Mischlinge knew about the Holocaust, Most claimed not to have comprehended what was going on until after the war; they did not want to know and would not or could not believe it. Some even witnessed the deportations of family members, but did not realize their fate at the time. One even manned a flak gun while the Nazis deported his two brothers to an OT forced labor camp. A few of those claimed to know quite a lot about what was going on in the concentration camps, but said it was all unsubstantiated, and who could they ask about the truth anyway? And what could they have done? Some only realized the truth when they were deported from OT forced labor camps to concentration camps, and even then they did not realize the extent of the systematic extermination of Jews.

Although Rigg did not document any Mischlinge that participated in killings of Jews when asked, there were some people of Jewish descent who were perpetrators. Field Marshall Erhard Milch, for example, is considered a German Jewish war criminal, and Dr. Hans Eppinger performed horrible experiments on inmates of Dachau. Rigg found other examples as well, but for the most part these were rare.

Interesting link:

http://academic.kellogg.edu/mandel/pritchard_rev.htm
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kadafi
08-03-2006, 07:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
No he isn't a Jew. He renounced his faith. Essentially he's an Atheist. As for Marx it don't think he seemed to high on Jews
Hehe, Marxism. I would be more than happy to discuss with you about Marxism and whether Marx's words is literally followed by all Marxists. I have studied Marxism and its connection with Judaism privately so I would be more than glad to contribute but for that, you have to start a new thread.

Stick to the main subject of the topic and lets avoid side-tracking.

Regards
Reply

ManchesterFolk
08-03-2006, 08:01 PM
Of course some of these perpertraitors were of "Jewish descent"

But that is it. By Jewish law they are considered gentiles (nonjews)...

They would not have been aloud to be in the German Army if they were Jewish. These perpetraitors were not Jewish by Jewish Law. You can't be 'half jewish'

No one has presented me any links to German Military law from 1939-1945 that says Jews can serve. That is because I believe they WERE NOT aloud to serve if they were Jewish by Jewish law.
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Woodrow
08-03-2006, 08:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
Of course some of these perpertraitors were of "Jewish descent"

But that is it. By Jewish law they are considered gentiles (nonjews)...

They would not have been aloud to be in the German Army if they were Jewish. These perpetraitors were not Jewish by Jewish Law. You can't be 'half jewish'

No one has presented me any links to German Military law from 1939-1945 that says Jews can serve. That is because I believe they WERE NOT aloud to serve if they were Jewish by Jewish law.

From the Simon Wisenthal Center

Mischlinge in Germany.

(Lit., "hybrids"), part Jews. The Nuremberg Laws of September 1935 did not mention Mischlinge, but they were noted in the laws' first implementation ordinance of November 1935. Mischlinge of the first degree, or half Jews, were those who had two Jewish grandparents, did not belong to the Jewish religion, and were not married to a Jewish person as of September 15, 1935. Mischlinge of the second degree, or quarter Jews, were those with one Jewish grandparent; this category also included Aryan partners in mixed marriages. The census of 1939 showed that seventy - two thousand Mischlinge of the first degree and thirty - nine thousand of the second degree were still living in Germany.
Generally, the policy was to absorb the Mischlinge of the second degree into the German nation, whereas those of the first degree were equated with Jews. At the end of 1941 and at the Wansee Conference proposals were made that all Mischlinge of the first degree be sterilized. However, a firm policy was never adopted because of fears of possible repercussions among the large number of German relatives of the Mischlinge. The only Mischlinge killed were concentration camp inmates who had been arrested in the 1930s; these were transferred to Auschwitz at the end of 1942.


Mischlinge in Other Countries.

A lack of uniformity in the attitude toward Mischlinge also characterized the policy in conquered countries. When Dutch Jews were ordered to register in January 1941, Mischlinge of the second degree were included. But quarter Jews were not relocated to Amsterdam or deported. Dutch Jews were allowed to petition the General Commission for Administration and Justice for the Occupied Netherlands Territory for exemption from the status of full Jew and half Jew. Dr. Hans Georg Calmeyer, who handled many of the applications, was extremely lenient. He also recommended that Jews whose applications were under consideration not be sent deported. Another aspect of the treatment of Mischlinge in the Netherlands arose in the context of marriages between Jews and "Aryans." The 8,610 registered Jewish partners in these unions were essentially given the option of deportation or undergoing sterilization to prevent them from bringing further Mischlinge into the world; 2,562 were sterilized. A number of those who had been sterilized were killed anyway. After the ghettoization of Polish Jewry, Mischlinge of all degrees were also put in the ghettos. In Slovakia, however, they were exempted from deportation to extermination camps.

Hitler and the Mischlinge.

For Adolf Hitler, the Mischlinge issue was of paramount importance. All potential approvals for a change in status had to be referred to Hitler, as were permits for Mischlinge to serve in the military, and for mixed marriages involving Mischlinge. Hitler exempted some 260 officers or their wives who were Mischlinge of the first degree; by 1942, some 340 Jews had been equalized with Mischlinge of the first degree; and by means of legal fiction; he also granted the status of half Jew to some 3,000 Jews. After the attempt on his life on July 20, 1944, Hitler ordered that civil servants who were Mischlinge, or who were married to Jews or Mischlinge, could no longer hold high governmental office, even if their partners had previously been equalized with "Aryans." This new regulation affected a wide range of people in important posts. The ferreting out of Mischlinge in the party ranks was much more thorough than demanded by state law, and expulsions from the Nazi party embraced Mischlinge even up to the fifth degree. Hitler also issued general instructions that the offspring of political leaders were not to marry Mischlinge, even if the latter had received equal status with Germans

In the definition, it does not exclude those who had Jewish Mothers from having the status of Mischlinge. The degree of Mischlinge was based on the number of Jewish Grandparents, not on the religion of the parents.

The link:

http://motlc.learningcenter.wiesenth...25/xm2528.html
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lavikor201
08-03-2006, 08:35 PM
According to the 1939 Reich census, there were about 72,000 Mischlinge of the 1st degree, some 39,000 of the 2nd degree, and tens of thousands more of higher degrees. [D. Bankier, in: Holocaust and Genocide Studies, Volume 3, Number 1 (1988), pp.1-20.]

Are you saying they all fought in the German Army since someone through the number '150,000' out there?
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Woodrow
08-03-2006, 08:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
According to the 1939 Reich census, there were about 72,000 Mischlinge of the 1st degree, some 39,000 of the 2nd degree, and tens of thousands more of higher degrees. [D. Bankier, in: Holocaust and Genocide Studies, Volume 3, Number 1 (1988), pp.1-20.]

Are you saying they all fought in the German Army since someone through the number '150,000' out there?
I doubt if all of them fought in the German Army. I did not notice the 150,000 number.

I think this is an important part of WW2 history to be brought out. For the simple reason, truth can only be known if all facts are shown.

Many of my old friends from who were WW2 holocoust survivors felt betrayed by the Mischlinge. I believe that side should also be shown.
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nennar
08-03-2006, 09:11 PM
but israel is not the the jews country!.......

read the torah!!!!!!!!! read the bible!!!!!!!!!!! god said that the jewish people has no land...... why???? because they didnt listen to him and worshipped pagan gods........ remember the gold calf??????? that i just an example
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lavikor201
08-03-2006, 09:19 PM
read the torah!!!!!!!!! read the bible!!!!!!!!!!! god said that the jewish people has no land...... why???? because they didnt listen to him and worshipped pagan gods........ remember the gold calf??????? that i just an example

First off, I cannot even understand you’re English. Second, the golden calf had nothing to do with the 3 oaths.

The 3 oaths with Hashem were:

Jews must not mass conquer a country while in exile.
Jews must follow the laws of the non-jewish run country as long as it down not conflict with Jewish law.
If the Non-Jews oppress and persecute the Jews than the Jews are released by the first two oaths and you no longer are tied to oath 1 or 2.

The Holocaust made it under the third oath that the Jews no longer had to abide by the first or second.

Plus was Israel 'mass conquered' by Jews... No. The UN voted it as a country. Therefore Israel was not a country voted on by a single Jewish party during its creation.Either way it is irrelevant, the holocaust completly violated the third oath.

Go read a book or gain some knowledge before you insult anyone who knows anything about Judaism by speaking about it again.

I'm insulted by the lies you made, the same way you would be insulted if I lied about Islam.

I hope you’re big enough to apologize for mistakenly or not mistakenly lying about my religion.

What we are not aloud to do is build the temple until the Messiah comes, and a few fringes of jews say less religious jews might try and so they hate the secular jews.

PM me for more info on Jewish Law and customs or you can visit my thread in the Comparative religion topic. We are getting very off topic here.
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nennar
08-03-2006, 09:32 PM
You Think I Have Insultet You?????????
If That Is True I Say Sorry! But The Same Should Count For You!!!!!!!!!! You Insult Who Ever You Want.....

You Dont Understand My English???????????
If Allah Had Not Cursed You "as He Do Atleast In The Bible" Why Is It Then That Allmost All The Jews Lived Elswhere Than Israel????
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lavikor201
08-03-2006, 09:38 PM
Why Is It Then That Allmost All The Jews Lived Elswhere Than Israel????
Because the Jewish land was conqured, our temple burnt, and the Jews were sent away.

The Holy Land has been conquered many times. Islam was not able to defend it from conqueres either and they had much larger armies than the Jews.

I'm truly sorry if I insulted you. I just get easily angered when complete lies are told about my religion and the Torah.
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Woodrow
08-03-2006, 09:44 PM
Time out. Let us all return to reason. We can all learn to disagree with respect.
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nennar
08-03-2006, 09:44 PM
[



Town Statistics and Facts
Statistic/Fact
Value
Occupation date April 23rd,1948

Elevation from the sea Elevation varied between 50 meters in the coastal area to 500 meter on Mount Carmel.
Maps Map of Haifa city

Map of Haifa district and neighboring villages

Attacking Israeli force The Zionist forces were made up of 5,000 soldiers mostly organized by Haganah (Carmeli Brigade) and some IZL troops. The attack on Arab Haifa started on the 21st of April and was initiated from Hadara Ha Carmel (Haifa's Jewish neighborhood), which aimed to split the city into three separate and isolated pockets (operation Misbarayim meaning scissor).
The 1st attacking force was directed from Wadi Rashmya towards the Northeastern neighborhoods of Arab Haifa, the 2nd attacking force was directed toward the Arab neighborhood next to the port, and the 3rd attacking was directed toward the commercial district.

Click here, to read more about the battle for for Haifa in Arabic.

City defenders The city was poorly defended with 350-500 Palestinian volunteers and some Arab Liberation Army (ALA). Haifa's defense was headed by Ahmad al-Huneiti (a Jordanian national), who was killed on March 17th, 1948 while supplying the city with a major arms shipment, 12 tons of explosives, from Beirut-Lebanon. This arms shipment was meant to reinforce Haifa's crumbling defenses, and to boost it moral. Based on a tip from a British commander stationed in the area, a Haganah force that was stationed nearby Kiryat Motzkin, a Zionist colony between Haifa and Acre, ambushed and killed Mr. al-Huneiti. The death of Ahmad al-Huneiti had a major demoralizing affect on Haifa's Arab population. On March 27th, 1948, Ameen 'Izz al-Deen took up the responsibility of defending Haifa until its surrender on the April 23rd, 1948.

Just prior to the city's surrender, close to 300 fighters from the al-Tira, a Palestinian village located 7 km southeast of Haifa, attempted to reinforce Haifa's crumbling defenses. As they headed down to Arab Haifa, they were confronted by a British force commanded by General Stockholm, who commanded Haifa's British forces at the time, and they were forced to turned back. The people of al-Tira are a very good example of how a poorly armed, but well determined and stubborn fighters, can stand up to the Zionist might. Despite all the odds, al-Tira withstood a siege and an onslaught for more than three months until its occupation in late July 1948.

It should be noted that close to 700 of Transjordan's Arab Legionnaires (who were give strict orders not intervene by H.M. King Abdullah and their commanding British officer Gloub Pasha) stood by while Haifa was being ethically cleansed and occupied.
Click here, to read more about the battle for for Haifa in Arabic.

Acts of terror On December 30th ,1947, a Zionist terrorist planted a bomb in the Arab neighborhood where Palestinian Arab workers from nearby Palestine Oil Refinery used to live. As a result 6 Palestinians were killed, and 41 others were injured. Next morning, the Arab workers rioted in the Oil Refinery and attacked the Jewish workers to avenge the death of their Arab brothers, which resulted in the killing of 41 Jewish workers. In response, the Haganah and IZL forces retaliated by perpetrating the New Years Eve Massacre at Balad al-Shaykh, which resulted in the killing of close to 60 innocent men, women, and children. It should be noted that the people of Balad al-Shaykh had nothing to do with Oil Refinery riots, and the Haganah made the choice of picking an easy target to avenge the death of the Jewish workers at the Oil Refinery .

On February 29th ,1948, Zionist terrorists rolled downs a barrel of explosives from Haifa's Jewish neighborhood, Hadara Ha Carmel, into al-'Abasyah Arab neighborhood, which resulted in the destruction of most of the neighborhood. The bomb ended up terrorizing the nearby Arab neighborhoods into fleeing soon after that incident.

On March 22nd, 1948, Zionist terrorists disguised as British officers planted a car bomb in Iraq Street that killed and injured 36 people, mostly women and children, plus the destruction of several public buildings.

Ethnic cleansing Based on declassified Israeli documents, the Israeli historian Benny Morris concluded that the Jewish civilian population (especially Haifa's Jewish mayor Shabtai Levy) was at peace with their Palestinian neighbors, but the Haganah and the IZL leadership had a different agenda to ethnically cleansing the city from its Palestinian Arab population. Benny Morris wrote:
"In Haifa, the civilian authorities were saying one thing and the Haganah was doing something else altogether. Moreover, Haganah unites in the field acted inconsistently and in a manner often unintelligible to the Arab population" (Benny Morris, p. 90).

To expedite the ethnic cleansing process, the Haganah broadcasted terror messages, via loudspeakers, to sociologically terrorize the Arab inhabitants into fleeing. (Benny Morris, p. 76)

According to Ben-Gurion's biographer, Micheal Bar-Zohar, the dispatching of Golda Meir to Haifa soon after the city's occupation was nothing but a political and tactical ploy, Zohar wrote:,

"The appeals to the Arabs [of Haifa] to stay, Golda's mission, and other similar gestures were the result of political considerations, but they did not reflect [Ben-Gurion's] basic stand. In internal discussions, in instructions to his people, the 'old man' demonstrated a clear stand: it was better that the smallest possible number of [Palestinian] Arabs remain with in the [Jewish] state." (Simha Falpan, p. 84)

Out of the 61,000 Palestinian Arabs who used to call Haifa home, only 3,566 Palestinians were allowed to stay. The remaining population were in constant fear on their lives and properties, and many of them witnessed the looting of their homes and possessions by the Zionists.

Click here, to read more about the battle for for Haifa in Arabic.

Refugees' migration route The mass majority of Haifa's Palestinian population, numbering at least 35,000, were pushed into the sea. Similarly, Jaffa's population, numbering at least 50,000, suffered the same fate on May 13th,1948. Click here to view a map that illustrates refugees' migration routes.

Via boats, many Palestinian refugees landed in Sour (Tyre), Sayda, and Beirut Lebanon, and some boats managed to land in Acre City. It's very sad that some of the people who landed in Acre were ethnically cleansed again few weeks later.

Ironically, often Zionists accuse the Arabs of plotting to push the Jews into the sea!
[/QUOTE]
Reply

lavikor201
08-03-2006, 09:52 PM
Alright you posted your completly biased source. I will post mine now. :-)

Violence by Arabs against the Jewish civilian population of Palestine was a periodic reality. During the Mandate period, whenever Arab dissatisfaction reached a peak, or when anti-Zionist, anti-Semitic Arab leaders needed to provoke the British authorities, rioting and Jewish casualties were created. Major rioting flared in Palestine during 1920-21, in 1929, and during the Arab Revolt of 1936-39. This was not so different from the experience of Jews all over Europe and was part of the motivation for creating a Jewish state where Jews could control their own security.

The day after the UN partition resolution of November 29, 1947, violence against Jewish civilians began to escalate. The Arabs declared a protest strike and instigated riots that claimed the lives of 62 Jews and 32 Arabs. By the end of the second week, 93 Arabs, 84 Jews and 7 Englishmen had been killed and scores injured. From November 30, 1947 to February 1, 1948 427 Arabs, 381 Jews and 46 British were killed and 1,035 Arabs, 725 Jews and 135 British were wounded. In March alone, 271 Jews and 257 Arabs died in Arab attacks and Jewish counter­attacks. These were not military operations, but terrorism against civilian targets intended to achieve political aims for the Arabs who were dissatisfied with the United Nations partition plan.

In February 1948 there was a bombing on the 1st in Jerusalem against the Palestine Post building (later renamed the The Jerusalem Post) which killed six people and injured dozens. Then on February 22nd, three booby-trapped trucks positioned in Ben-Yehuda Street exploded, destroying four large buildings, killing 50 and injuring more than 100. On March 11, a car bomb exploded in the courtyard of the Jewish Agency building, killing 12 people, injuring 44, and causing extensive damage.

Arab acts of hostility prior to statehood reached their peak in March. Arabs controlled all the inter-urban routes. The road to Jerusalem was blocked, settlements in the Galilee and the Negev were also cut off and daily attacks were perpetrated on convoys. In the four months after the UN resolution, some 850 Jews were killed throughout the country, most of them in Jerusalem or on the road to the city.

On April 13, 1948, Arabs set mines in the road in the Sheik Jarrah area to block a convoy of 10 vehicles -- trucks, buses and ambulances -- carrying supplies, nurses, doctors, scientists, and patients to Hadassah Hospital on Mount Scopus. In the attack, 78 were killed and their bodies mutilated. Dozens are wounded. British soldiers delayed intervention in the attack for 6 hours while the killing continued. The hospital was cut off from Israel until it was recovered after the Six Day War in June 1967.

The largest Arab atrocity of the war was on May 13, 1948, the massacre of dozens of surrendering defenders, including some twenty women, at Kfar Etzion in the Etzion Bloc of settlements (Gush Etzion) just north of Hebron, in the territory allocated to the Arabs under the UN partition plan. The Etzion Bloc had already seen a massacre in January 1947 when a Haganah platoon of 35 soldiers sent to help them with medical supplies and ammunition was massacred by hundreds of Arab militants. Their stripped, mutilated bodies were found the next day by a British patrol.

The final battle for Gush Etzion took place between May 12-14, 1948. Massive, heavily armed enemy forces overran the Jewish positions. A handful of exhausted defenders, equipped only with light arms and very little ammunition could not withstand the attacking forces. On Thursday, May 13th, Kfar Etzion fell, its defenders killed, most of them slaughtered by Arab rioters after the collapse of the defense. Gush Etzion was destroyed in the aftermath -- everything of value was removed, then the buildings were reduced to rubble. Hundreds of thousands of trees in the orchards -- individually planted by the Jewish farmers -- were uprooted.
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Lamaggad
08-06-2006, 06:31 AM
Here you go people... I have recorded the interview of Chavez...
http://www.lamaggad.net/chavez.htm

for those who doesn't understand Arabic... you will hear the word "hitler" two or three times... hehehe..

any way.. this is what he generally says

israel attacks against Lebanon are unjustified aggression same as hitler's way.
israel keep blaming hitler about what he have done against Jews, we blame hitler as well... but now they are doing the same acts of hitler against innocent Lebanese people.
they are killing women and children, destroying whole families at the same time... etc. etc. etc. (israeli war-crims never ends i geuss)

if some one can give better translation, please do bcz i have missed many things.
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SirZubair
08-06-2006, 11:14 AM
:sl:

CLICK HERE to Download a LECTURE That addresses the Israeli led war on Lebanon.

Brought to you by the Zaytuna Institute

Wa'salaam

-Zubair
Reply

Halima
08-06-2006, 04:30 PM
A reminder:

No beef tolerated in posts please watch your actions insha'allah.
Reply

al-fateh
08-06-2006, 04:59 PM
Hitler is sunday school compared to the jews
Reply

nennar
08-06-2006, 05:02 PM
Hitler is sunday school compared to the jews
yes i would say thats true...... and the most saddest thing is that they havent learned anything... from what he did
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HeiGou
08-06-2006, 05:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by nennar
yes i would say thats true...... and the most saddest thing is that they havent learned anything... from what he did
Hitler killed 6 million innocent people. Both Intefadas together have not killed 6,000 Palestinians. How are "the Jews" worse?

I think they have learnt something from him - don't trust Anti-Semites and be strong enough to defend yourself against them.

What other lesson is there to learn?
Reply

nennar
08-06-2006, 05:28 PM
compassion
Reply

Lamaggad
08-06-2006, 08:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Hitler killed 6 million innocent people. Both Intefadas together have not killed 6,000 Palestinians. How are "the Jews" worse?
You are a sick person...
comparing two criminals by how many each have killed is the weirdest thing I've ever heard and doesn't show any thing but how sick you are and people like you.

BUT,

since you compare things by numbres ONLY... then Hezb Allah is an ANGEL, who only killed 80 people Most of them are SOLDIERS...
you want numbers
52 soldiers and 30 civilians...
the total is not even close to 100...
lots of damages and losses in the israeili side... by using one thing [ROCKETS]

what did israel do in 25 days?!?!? 1000 civilians is killed in cold blood... MOST of them are children and women...
5000 wounded,
800 0000 away from their homes looking for shelters.
between 5 to 10 Massacres...
They are using chemical and phosphoric bombs... air craft H15, Bulldozers.. etc. etc.
destroyed all bridges and electricity power... some Hospital are almost without power and without medicine.
Reply

מדינת ישׂראל
08-06-2006, 08:18 PM
I am still in utter shock at this poll.

It is completly obsurd that people actually voted 'yes'

How embarassing for this forum.
Reply

nennar
08-06-2006, 08:23 PM
yes ! its someting to think about!.....

its just sad they cant stop.... especially if you want to live in peace like you say!.. its sad that people like killing eachother so much.... but they all forget that we must stand befor god.........
Reply

nennar
08-06-2006, 08:24 PM
i am in shock over to find that others than muslims are allowed in here
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
08-06-2006, 08:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by מדינת ישׂראל
I am still in utter shock at this poll.
kinda like this :uuh: :uuh: ??
Ye i thought that at first.
Then i stopped,
thought about it and said,
YOU KNOW SOMETHING, ISRAEL IS KILLING QUITE A LOT OF INNOCENT WOMEN AND CHILDREN.
Then i thought,
hmm..,
then i thought,
hmm some more,
and then i sed, i dont kno hitler, so i cant judge but israel is definitly killing TOO MANY CIVILLIANS!!

It is completly obsurd that people actually voted 'yes'
the people that voted yes probably just feel disgusted at the pleas and crys of so many yet no israelli is listening...[/quote]

How embarassing for this forum.
really? i was thinking how embarassing for israel...
Reply

Lamaggad
08-06-2006, 08:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by nennar
i am in shock over to find that others than muslims are allowed in here
ofcourse they should be welcomed here...

it's good to have them here in one forum so we can share point of view from both sides...

you shouldn't say that...
Reply

מדינת ישׂראל
08-06-2006, 08:28 PM
There cries on an Islamic message board not being heard by Israeli's?

And exactly how many Israeli's are on this forum?
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
08-06-2006, 08:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by מדינת ישׂראל
There cries on an Islamic message board not being heard by Israeli's?

And exactly how many Israeli's are on this forum?
who said cries on islamic message board. OOoooh you probably dont know.
Sry let me tell you, theres almost a new march every week, almost every country is protesting, millions are outraged, yet israelli's carry on doing what they please...
Reply

Lamaggad
08-06-2006, 08:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by מדינת ישׂראל
I am still in utter shock at this poll.

How embarassing for this forum.
That's what we call Freedom of Speech...
It is completly obsurd that people actually voted 'yes'
It's absurd that some Jews are not objecting about their government from committing war crimes in Lebanon and Palestine.

that is why people have voted 'yes' and that is why President Chavez have said that.
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מדינת ישׂראל
08-06-2006, 08:34 PM
That's what we call Freedom of Speech...
I never said you did not have the right to make this poll.

I said I was utterly shocked at this poll, the same way I am utterly shocked when I see a Neo-Nazi rally claiming they want to put more Jews into gas chambers.

I'm shocked, but they have the right to say whatever they want.
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scentsofjannah
08-06-2006, 09:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by nennar
compassion
that doesnt exist in Heigou's vocabulary..compassion?? whats that
Reply

מדינת ישׂראל
08-06-2006, 09:41 PM
You are a sick person...
comparing two criminals by how many each have killed is the weirdest thing I've ever heard and doesn't show any thing but how sick you are and people like you.
Yet you compare how many are killed two criminals each time someone brings it up...

Does this mean you are 'sick' as well?

Great logic.
Reply

Trumble
08-06-2006, 09:42 PM
What a sad poll result, so far, anyway. Hitler was directly responsible for the deaths of over 50 million people.

Keep some sense of perspective; and frankly 55% of you need to get a clue.
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מדינת ישׂראל
08-06-2006, 09:44 PM
Actually 68% of them need to get a clue.

lol.
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QuranStudy
08-06-2006, 09:48 PM
This thread needs to be closed.
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Lamaggad
08-06-2006, 10:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
What a sad poll result, so far, anyway. Hitler was directly responsible for the deaths of over 50 million people.
i don't know were you guys get your numbers from.. it wasn't 50 million nor 6 million...
if that was a real number then thier would be no Jews on earth..

those are fake numbers inveanted by zionist so german would keep paying them taxes.

zionists take advantage of any thing for the sake of many and power.
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Skillganon
08-06-2006, 10:22 PM
Well it is not about numbers but the fact that they are behaving similar like Hitler did (not the same). Talking about the goverment, not all the people who reside in a the land that is now called Israel.
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searchingsoul
08-07-2006, 12:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lamaggad
i don't know were you guys get your numbers from.. it wasn't 50 million nor 6 million...
if that was a real number then thier would be no Jews on earth..

those are fake numbers inveanted by zionist so german would keep paying them taxes.

zionists take advantage of any thing for the sake of many and power.
I've heard this before. The last thing I read it was closer to 3 million.
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Keltoi
08-07-2006, 02:42 AM
I believe what he was referring to was all the deaths attributed to the Nazi regime, not only the Jewish people.
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searchingsoul
08-07-2006, 02:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I believe what he was referring to was all the deaths attributed to the Nazi regime, not only the Jewish people.
Then I can see where that number would be accurate.
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Trumble
08-07-2006, 03:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I believe what he was referring to was all the deaths attributed to the Nazi regime, not only the Jewish people.
Correct. That is why I used the word "people" and not "Jews"!
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מדינת ישׂראל
08-07-2006, 03:19 AM
I will try to explain this to you Lammagad.

  • 6 Million Jews died because of Hitler.
  • 50 Million People died because of Hitler.


Do you understand now, or are you still confused?
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Link
08-07-2006, 03:34 AM
They are oppressors, they will be gathered in the same place as hitler, Sadam, Pharaoh. All zionist and their supporters will inshallah.
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מדינת ישׂראל
08-07-2006, 03:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Link
They are oppressors, they will be gathered in the same place as hitler, Sadam, Pharaoh. All zionist and their supporters will inshallah.
Since you are the all knowing judge?
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Zulkiflim
08-07-2006, 03:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Link
They are oppressors, they will be gathered in the same place as hitler, Sadam, Pharaoh. All zionist and their supporters will inshallah.

Salaam,

Yes for these people and those hyprocrites who say peace but are the mischeif makers may they enjoy the fruit of this world FOR A TIME,but in the end their place in eternity Inshallah will be paid in full to their acts.

Inshallah Allah knows best.
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SirZubair
08-07-2006, 09:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
This thread needs to be closed.
No it doesnt need to be closed!

We are muslims ! It is our responsibility to show the world how irrational we can be ..... :rollseyes
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north_malaysian
08-07-2006, 09:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SirZubair

Rightfully so.

Just as every muslim wouldn't want to compared to Usama Bin Laden. Except for our lovely pro-jihad posters ofcourse.
Nice signature!!!!! Do you have a pic of Christian Lebanese hugging Israeli Jew too? :)
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SirZubair
08-07-2006, 09:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Nice signature!!!!! Do you have a pic of Christian Lebanese hugging Israeli Jew too? :)
I stole it from Dahir :p

format_quote Originally Posted by HusamLah
no need to show us cause it won't happen
Please don't be such an optimist, you will give Muslims a bad name.. :rollseyes
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SirZubair
08-07-2006, 09:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by HusamLah
the joke on you:giggling: i'm not an optimist
'the joke on you' :giggling: i was being sarcastic.. :rollseyes
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Link
08-07-2006, 02:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HusamLah
they slaughter our people and oppress them
exactly
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מדינת ישׂראל
08-07-2006, 02:10 PM
Great signature SirZubair...

some people here cannot even handle the image of peace.
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scentsofjannah
08-07-2006, 04:25 PM
All hail the Jewish Master Race

by Pastor Texe Marrs


"Our race is the Master Race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves."

If I asked you what group of people embrace a set of doctrines like this, what would your answer be? Most of you would probably answer, "The Nazis." Today, in fact, it is Jews who make all these poisonous claims to racial superiority. No, not all the Jews. But, as I will document, a huge number of leaders among the Jews ascribe to these wicked and dangerous theories of racial and blood superiority.

No Basis for Peace

In his memoirs of his years in the White House, former President Jimmy Carter wrote that there could have been peace between the Arabs and the Israelis had it not been for the bigoted, Nazi-like racial views of Israeli's Prime Minister Menachem Begin. Begin, Carter recalled, believed the Jews were a Master Race, a holy people superior to Egyptians and Arabs. Begin also believed that God wanted the Jews to own the land, so there was absolutely no basis for peace. The Jews lusted after the land and intended to have it. Period.

Popular New York City Rabbi Mendel Schneerson taught that the Jew is superior and "a totally different species."

Jews a Totally Different Species?

Rabbi Mendel Schneerson, the late Jewish Lubavitcher and friend of the senior George Bush, also believed the Jews are a superior Master Race. Many Jews today agree with the late Rabbi. Some even believe that Schneerson will himself someday be resurrected and return as the Jewish World Messiah. Schneerson once explained his theory of Jewish racial superiority this way. He said, "We have a case of the Jew...a totally different species."

"The body of a Jewish person," Schneerson bragged, "is of a totally different quality from the body of members of all other nations of the world. Bodies of the Gentiles are in vain. An even greater difference is in regard to the soul...A non-Jewish soul comes from three satanic spheres, while the Jewish soul stems from holiness."

Holocaust activist Elie Wiesel, whose lies about his holocaust experiences seem to be legion, also claims that Jews are a superior race. "Everything about us is different," Wiesel boasts. "Jews are ontologically exceptional."

No Mixed Marriages for the Superior Race

This poisonous theory of the Jews impacts their relations with all other nations and peoples. Because they are convinced they are the Master Race, superior, god souls living amongst inferior beasts, Israel does not sanction or allow mixed marriages (The Jerusalem Report, October 20, 1994, p.26). In the U.S.A., liberal Jews scream out for more mixed marriages, but only among Gentiles! Jewish leaders fund civil rights organizations and are in favor of increased immigration of foreign races. But back home in Israel, the Sharon government is now building a Berlin-style wall creating an apartheid nation, to keep "inferior" Arabs in their segregated ghettos.

Ze'ev Chafeto, the courageous Jewish editor of The Jerusalem Report magazine, notes that Israeli laws harshly prohibit people of non-Jewish races from immigrating to Israel. The Jews are determined to keep their race "pure" and unblemished, just as the Nazis sought for the Aryans. Christians are especially not welcome, and Israelis frequently use words similar to the condescending slang word "------" to describe Christians and Gentiles—vulgar, Yiddish slur words like "shiksa," "schwartze," and "shegetsz."

Since the Jews are claimed to be the Master Race, whose souls are said by the Talmud to be on a far higher plane than the animalistic, "satanic souls" of Gentiles, it is common for Jewish authorities to brand all Gentiles by the derogatory Yiddish term "goy," a term akin to a curse word. Meanwhile, Arabs are deemed so inferior they are even lower than the goy.

Jewish Blood vs. Inferior Blood

When several of his students were accused of murdering a teenage Arab girl, Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg insisted: "Jewish blood is not the same as the blood of a (Gentile) goy." In other words, if a god-like Jew kills an inferior goy, how can that be murder?

Israeli Yeshiva (school) students often demonstrate and chant, "Death to the Arabs." Defending their extreme behavior, Rabbi Ido Elba explains, "According to the Talmud (Jewish book of traditions), one may kill any Gentile." Rabbi Schlomo Aviner adds that normal human codes and laws of justice and righteousness do not apply to the Jews.

The widely studied Gush Emunim holds that, "Jews are not and cannot be a normal people...The Covenant made between God and the Jewish people effectively nullifies moral laws that bind normal nations."

"Jesus a -------," says Jewish Talmud

Even the leaders of Israel My Glory, a fanatically pro-Zionist, supposedly Christian ministry, have made note of the bizarre views of the Jews as found in their own book of laws and traditions, the Jewish Talmud. The organization's magazine (Dec./Jan. 1995/1996) published a revealing article detailing many of the hate-filled Talmudic beliefs of the Rabbis and their Zionist followers.

These beliefs include the teaching that Jesus was born a ------- and his mother, Mary, was a harlot (Mishna Yebamoth 4,13); that Jesus practiced black arts of magic (Sanhedrin 1076), and that Jesus is now suffering eternal punishment in a boiling vat of filthy excrement (Mishna Sanhedrin X, 2). These references come from the English translation of the Talmud known as The Soncino Talmud.

Indeed, the hate-filled, anti-Christian movie, The Last Temptation of Christ, produced by Universal Studios and its Chairman, the Jew, Lewis Wasserman, was an accurate, if disgusting, reflection of what the Jews' most holy book, the Talmud, teaches. And yet the Rabbis and leaders of the Jewish-led Simon Wiesenthal Center, The ADL, and the Southern Poverty Law Center have the audacity to blast and criticize Mel Gibson's upcoming movie merely because it recounts the gospel truth about the trial and death of Jesus. What hypocrites!

Memory of Jesus to be Blotted Out

The Talmud is full of language that portrays the Jews as God's Master Race and depicts all other races as trash and garbage. It warns Jews to stay away from Christians because Christians are said to be "unclean" and "murderers."

On the other hand, a Jew is pictured as one of God's Chosen People. The Jew is said to possess so great a dignity that no one, not even an angel, can share equality with him. In fact, the Jew is said to be the equal of God. Rabbi Chanina says that, "He who strikes an Israelite acts as if he slaps the face of God's Divine Majesty."

Because the Christian is considered unclean, a murderer, and an idolater, he must be exterminated, slaughtered without pity, squashed like a bug. "The memory of that man (Jesus) should be forever blotted out."

"Kill All Christians"—Talmud

The famous Jewish rabbi, Maimonides, acclaimed by Christian apologists and defenders of Zionism as "a great man of God," encouraged Jews to kill all Christians. In the Talmud (Hilkoth Akrum, X, 1), Maimonides says, "Do not have pity for them. Show no mercy unto them. Therefore, if you see one in difficulty of drowning, do not go to his help... it is right to kill him by your own hand by shoving him into a well or in some other way."

The monstrous and barbaric treatment Israel gives to Palestinians and other Arabs taken prisoner is easily understood when we realize that the Jews' own holy book, the Talmud, commands that heretics and traitors be killed without delay (Abhodah Zarah, 266) and that a Gentile taken prisoner may be killed, "even before he confesses...the sooner the better" (Choschen Hammischpat, 388, 10).

Murder of Gentiles Praised as a "Holy Sacrifice"

Moreover, the murder of Gentiles by Jews is said by the Talmud to be a "holy sacrifice" to God (Zohar, III, 2276 and I, 38b and 39a). Death of Gentiles by beheading is especially recommended (Pesachim, 49b).

The award-winning Jewish propaganda movie, Schindler's List, depicts Schindler lamenting how few Jews he has been able to save from a Nazi labor camp. But a little, old Jewish man says to him, "In our holy book, the Talmud, it says that if you save just one life, it is as if you have saved the entire world."

Actually, the exact wording in the Talmud says that if you save just one Jewish life, it is as if you have saved the entire world. According to the Talmud, Gentile lives, of course, have no value at all.

It is important to remember that, to the Jews, the Talmud is not an obsolete and crusty document. The rabbis teach that it is a living and breathing instructional document, a modern-day, indispensable holy book. U.S. Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, an ardent Jewish believer, was quoted in The New York Times as giving credit to the Talmud for her success on the bench. "The Talmud," said Ginsburg, "is my sacred guide for daily living."

Children Raped and Murdered

In Rome, Italy, in 2000, Italian police broke up a ring of eleven top Jewish gangsters. It was discovered that they had been kidnapping Gentile (non-Jewish) children between the ages of two and five from orphanages, raping them, and then murdering the children. These despicable crimes were recorded live on film and sold throughout the infamous global "snuff film" industry. Over 1,700 customers had paid as much as $20,000 per film to view little children being raped and murdered.

Both the Associated Press and Reuters agencies reported this heinous crime on September 27, 2000 (Also see The Rome Observer, October 1, 2000). But few U.S. newspapers and none of America's TV news networks carried this shocking news story. Why?

When Italian TV broadcast scenes of the arrests of the snuff film perverts at prime time to more than eleven million viewers, Jewish officials went berserk. Claiming "blood libel," they demanded that the Jewish elite who sat on the board of directors of the Italian TV network punish those responsible for allowing this news to surface. It was done. The TV executives were fired.

One cannot help but wonder: Was it Judaism's most holy book, the Talmud, that put it in the hearts of those monsters to commit such brutish and evil crimes against children? After all, their Talmud says that if a grown man rapes a young girl under three years of age, "it is nothing." And Gentiles, according to the Talmud, may be killed practically without restriction.

The Master Race—Beyond Good and Evil

In any event, the Jewish Master Race cannot be held to normal standards of righteousness and morality. They are said to be "beyond good and evil." That is what Adolf Hitler believed about the Aryans. It is what Ariel Sharon and hundreds of Jewish rabbis and Illuminists believe about the Jews.


When questioned about his earlier role in the genocidal massacre by Israeli defense forces of thousands of unarmed Egyptian POWs during the 1973 Arab-Israeli war, Prime Minister Yitzak Rabin snapped, "I'm not going to discuss that. That's ancient history." An odd and telling comment, indeed, since the Jews insist there is no statute of limitations that prevents the capture, trial, and execution of Germans accused of war crimes that occurred in the 1930s and 1940s, over six decades ago.

"Ye Shall Die Like Men"

God is not a racist. He has no use for haters. In the Holy Bible, our Saviour totally refutes and condemns the heinous and unconscionable Master Race theory, confirming to us that there is nothing holy in men's flesh and blood: "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (I Corinthians 15:50).

In the Bible, King David flatly told the unrighteous Jews that even though by tradition they claimed they were gods, "ye shall die like men" (Psalm 82:1-8).

The Jews fervently believe their blood is divine, and that only the Jews comprise a Holy Nation. They view themselves as "God's Chosen," a special Master Race. Their Zionist leaders smugly view other peoples as vermin, as inferior and of little value. The Jews and their leaders are sadly mistaken. They are in dire need of instruction and repentance.

Moreover, our God is preparing for them a great surprise. Unless they repent of their racism and sins and turn to Jesus Christ, these elitist Jews are going to a place where there is a lot of room. Indeed, Proverbs 27:20 and Isaiah 5:14 assure us that Hell is never full, and is always being enlarged. Thus, there is plenty of room amidst the flames for the ungodly Jews whose arrogance and pride cause them to esteem themselves the Master Race.


Are Jewish people "better" than others?

No, we are are created EQUAL in God's eyes!

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." -Romans 10:12 (King James Bible)

from: www.jesus-is-saviour.com
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scentsofjannah
08-07-2006, 04:35 PM
Zionism and
the Holocaust--From Israel Shahak and Norton Mezvinsky's book "Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel"




The U.N. decisions to partition Palestine and then to grant admission to the state of Israel were made, on one level, as an emotional response to the horrors of the Holocaust, Under more normal circumstances, the compelling claims to sovereignty of the Arab majority would have prevailed. This reaction of guilt on the part of the Western allies was understandable, but that doesn't mean the Palestinians should have to pay for crimes committed by others -- a classic example of two wrongs not making a right.

The Holocaust is often used as the final argument in favor of Zionism, but is this connection justified? There are several aspects to consider in answering that question honestly. First, we will examine the historical record of what the Zionist movement actually did to help save European Jewry from the Nazis.

Shamir proposes an alliance with the Nazis

"As late as 1941, the Zionist group LEHI, one of whose leaders, Yitzhak Shamir, was later to become a prime minister of Israel, approached the Nazis, using the name of its parent organization, the Irgun(NMO)..[The proposal stated:] 'The establishment of the historical Jewish state on a national and totalitarian Pd bound by a treaty with the German Reich would be in the interests of strengthening the future German nation of power in the Near East...The NMO in Palestine offers to take an active part in the war on Germany's side'...The Nazis rejected this proposal for an alliance because, it is reported, they considered LEHI's military power 'negligible.' " Allan Brownfield in "The Washington Report on Middle Eastern Affairs", July/August 1998.

Wasn't the main goal of Zionism to save Jews from the Holocaust?

"In 1938 a thirty-one nation conference was held in Evian, France, on resettlement of the victims of Nazism. The World Zionist Organization refused to participate, fearing that resettlement of Jews in other states would reduce the number available for Palestine." John Quigley, "Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice."

Main goal of Zionism - continued

"It was summed up in the meeting [of the Jewish Agency's Executive on June 26, 1938] that the Zionist thing to do 'is belittle the [Evian] Conference as far as possible and to cause it to decide nothing...We are particularly worried that it would move Jewish organizations to collect large sums of money for aid to Jewish refugees, and these collections could interfere with our collection efforts'...Ben-Gurion's statement at the same meeting: 'No rationalization can turn the conference from a harmful to a useful one. What can and should be done is to limit the damage as far as possible.'" Israeli author Boas Evron, "Jewish State or Israeli Nation?"

Main goal of Zionism - continued

"[Ben-Gurion stated] 'If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, but only half of them by transporting them to Palestine, I would choose the second - because we face not only the reckoning of those children, but the historical reckoning of the Jewish people.' In the wake of the Kristallnacht pogroms, Ben-Gurion commented that 'the human conscience' might bring various countries to open their doors to Jewish refugees from Germany. He saw this as a threat and warned: 'Zionism is in danger.'" Israeli historian, Tom Segev, "The Seventh Million."

Main goal of Zionism-continued

"Even David Ben-Gurion's sympathetic biographer acknowledges that Ben-Gurion did nothing practical for rescue, devoting his energies to post-war prospects. He delegated rescue work to Yitzak Gruenbaum, who [stated]...'They will say that I am anti-Semitic, that I don't want to save the Exile, that I don't have a varm Yiddish hartz...Let them say what they want. I will not demand that the Jewish Agency allocate a sum of 300,000 or 100,000 pounds sterling to help European Jewry. And I think that whoever demands such things is performing an anti-Zionist act.'

"Zionists in America...took the same position. At a May 1943 meeting of the American Emergency Committee for Zionist Affairs, Nahum Goldmann argued, 'If a drive is opened against the White Paper (the British policy of restricting Jewish immigrants to Palestine) the mass meetings of protest against the murder of European Jewry will have to be dropped. We do not have sufficient manpower for both campaigns.'" Peter Novick, "The Holocaust in American Life."

Main goal of Zionism - continued

"The Zionist movement...interfered with and hindered other organizations, Jewish and non-Jewish, whenever it imagined that their activity, political or humanitarian, was at variance with Zionist aims or in competition with them, even when these might be helpful to Jews, even when it was a question of life and death...Beit Zvi documents the Zionist leadership's indifference to saving Jews from the Nazi menace except in cases in which the Jews could be brought to Palestine...[e.g.] the readiness of the dictator of the Dominican Republic, Rafael Trujillo, to absorb one hundred thousand refugees and the sabotaging of this idea - as well as others, like proposals to settle the Jews inAlaska and the Philippines - by the Zionist movement...

"The obtuseness of the Zionist movement toward the fate of European Jewry did not prevent it, of course, from later hurling accusations against the whole world for its indifference toward the Jewish catastrophe or from pressing material, political, and moral demands on the world because of that indifference." Israeli author Boas Evron, "Jewish State or Israeli Nation?"

Main goal of Zionism - continued

"I have already gone exhaustively into the reason for our being here, reasons that I as a pioneer of 1906 can affirm have nothing to do with the Nazis!...We are here because the land is ours. And we are here because we have again made it ours in this time with the work we have put into it. Nazism and our history of martyrdom abroad do not concern our presence in Israel directly." David Ben-Gurion, "Memoirs."

In hindsight, it is easy to say that the millions of Jews who were murdered in the Holocaust could have been saved if Palestine had been available for unlimited immigration. The history of this period is not so simple, however. First, keep in mind that other realistic resettlement plans were proposed but actively opposed by the Zionist movement. Second, the great majority of Jews in Europe were not Zionists and did not try to emigrate to Palestine before 1939. Third, after the start of the war, as the Nazis occupied various countries, they refused to let the Jews leave, making emigration virtually impossible. And Palestine, as we have shown, was already occupied; the indigenous Arabs had more valid reasons than any other country for wanting to limit Jewish immigration. Read on:

~ ~ ~ ~

Emigration to Palestine before World War II

"In 1936, the Social Democratic Bund won a sweeping victory in Jewish kehilla elections in Poland...Its main hallmarks included 'an unyielding hostility to Zionism' and to the Zionist enterprise of Jewish emigration from Poland to Palestine. The Bund wished Polish Jews to fight anti-semitism in Poland by remaining there...The Zionist goal was also opposed, as a matter of principle, by all the major parties and movements among pre-1939 Polish Jewry..."Elsewhere in eastern Europe...Zionist strength was weaker still." Prof. William Rubinstein, "The Myth of Rescue."

Emigration to Palestine before World War II - continued

"In fact, Zionism suffered its own defeat in the Holocaust; as a movement, it failed. It had not, after all, persuaded the majority of Jews to leave Europe for Palestine while it was still possible to do so." Israeli historian, Tom Segev, "The Seventh Million."

Emigration during World War II

"[With the start of the war, Nazi] edicts forbidding emigration followed in all countries under direct Nazi control: after 1940-1 it was in effect impossible for Jews legally to emigrate from Nazi-occupied Europe to places of safety...The doors...were firmly shut: by the Nazis, it must be emphasized." Prof William D. Rubinstein, "The Myth of Rescue.

Palestine was not necessarily a safe haven either

"In September 1940, the Italians, at war with Britain, bombed downtown Tel Aviv, with over a hundred casualties...As the German Army overran Europe and North Africa, it appeared possible that it would conquer Palestine as well. In the summer of 1940, in the spring of 1941, and again in the fall of 1942 the danger seemed imminent. The yishuv panicked...Many people tried to find a way out of the country, but it was not easy...Some...were taking no chances; they carried cyanide capsules." Israeli historian, Tom Segev, "The Seventh Million."

In any case, Palestine was not Britain's to give away; it was already occupied.

"We came to this country which was already populated by Arabs, and we are establishing a Hebrew, that is a Jewish, state here...Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages...There is not a single community in the country that did not have a former Arab population." Israeli leader, Moshe Dayan, quoted in Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi's "Original Sins."

Already occupied, continued

"One can imagine an argument for the right of a persecuted minority to find refuge in another country able to accommodate it; one is hard-pressed, however, to imagine an argument for the right of a peaceful minority to politically and perhaps physically displace the indigenous population of another country. Yet...the latter was the actual intention of the Zionist movement." Norman Finkelstein, "Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict."

The use of the Holocaust for political gain

"[In 1947] the U.N. appointed a special body, the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP), to make the decision over Palestine and UNSCOP members were asked to visit the camps of Holocaust survivors. Many of these survivors wanted to emigrate to the United States, a wish that undermined the Zionist claims that the fate of European Jewry was connected to that of the Jewish community in Palestine. When UNSCOP representatives arrived at the camps, they were unaware that backstage manipulations were limiting their contacts solely to survivors who wished to emigrate to Palestine," Israeli historian, Ilan Pappe in "The Link," January March 1998.

Political gain - continued

"Inside the DP camps, emissaries from the Yishuv organized survivor activity - crucially, the testimony the DPs gave to the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry and the UN Special Committee on Palestine about where they wished to go...The Jewish Agency envoys reported home that they had been successful in preventing the appearance of 'undesirable' witnesses at the hearings. One wrote his girlfiend in Palestine that 'we have to change our style and handwriting constantly so that they will think that the questionaires were filled in by the refugees.'"Peter Novick, "The Holocaust in American Life."

Roosevelt's advisor writes on why Jewish refugees were not offered sanctuary in the U.S. after WWII

"What if Canada, Australia, South America, England and the United States were all to open a door to some migration? Even today [written in 1947] it is my judgement, and I have been in Germany since the war, that only a minority of the Jewish DP's [displaced persons] would choose Palestine...

"[Roosevelt] proposed a world budget for the easy migration of the 500,000 beaten people of Europe. Each nation should open its doors for some thousands of refugees...So he suggested that during my trips for him to England during the war I sound out in a general, unofficial manner the leaders of British public opinion, in and out of the government...The simple answer: Great Britain will match the United States, man for man, in admissions from Europe...It seemed all settled. With the rest of the world probably ready to give haven to 200,000, there was a sound reason for the President to press Congress to take in at least 150,000 immigrants after the war...

"It would free us from the hypocrisy of closing our own doors while making sanctimonious demands on the Arabs...But it did not work out...The failure of the leading Jewish organizations to support with zeal this immigration programme may have caused the President not to push forward with it at that time...

"I talked to many people active in Jewish organizations. I suggested the plan...I was amazed and even felt insulted when active Jewish leaders decried, sneered, and then attacked me as if I were a traitor...I think I know the reason for much of the opposition. There is a deep, genuine, often fanatical emotional vested interest in putting over the Palestinian movement [Zionism]. Men like Ben Hecht are little concerned about human blood if it is not their own." Jewish attorney and friend of President Roosevelt, Morris Ernst, "So Far, So Good."

Victimology

"Jewish proponents of the 'victim' card are aware not only of its social effectiveness but of its usefulness as a means of insuring Jewish solidarity and, hence, survival. If we were forever hated by all and are doomed to be forever hated by all, then we'd best stick together and make the best of it...Personally, I have never found this view of the eternally-hating gentile to have any resemblance with reality. It seems a myth, pure and simple, and an ugly one at that.

"Is it a good means of social control? Perhaps, but at what cost? It strips the faith and history of Jew and gentile alike of all but their months of antagonism. It wallows in evil imagery and postulates a forever morally superior Jew, victimized by the forever morally inferior 'goy'..I have spent most of my adult life among Hasidic Jews, almost all of whom were Holocaust survivors, and I've heard almost nothing of the of the relentless harping on victimology and our need to forever memorialize it...(Victimology) allows Jews to bypass their own faith and offers the national allegiance of Holocaust/Israel in its place." Rabbi Mayer Schiller, quoted in "Issues of the American Council for Judaism," Summer 1998.

----------------
read the whole book here http://www.cactus48.com/fundamentalism.html
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מדינת ישׂראל
08-07-2006, 04:40 PM
On April 2, 2002 armed Palestinian Arab terrorists forced their way into the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, one of Christianity's most sacred sites, the birthplace of Christ. In the midst of over 200 nuns and priests, they sought refuge from Operation Defensive Shield, the Israel Defense Forces action against suicide bombing activity originating from West Bank locations. For 38 days, until May 10, 2002, the world watched as the gunmen refused to surrender their positions inside the Church. Only Israeli restraint and respect for the Christian shrine prevented the Palestinian desecration from turning into its destruction.

Why was the IDF in Bethlehem at the time? In December, 1995, Israel had turned over control of Bethlehem to the Palestinian Authority, but the PA failed to quell terrorist activities. Quite the contrary; terrorism never stopped and after September 2000, increased dramatically with the al-Aqsa Intifada. In February and March, 2002, more than two dozen Israelis had died in five separate incidents of murder, bombings and gunfire within Israel and the territories, with over six dozen injured. In each case, the Fatah in Bethlehem claimed responsibility for the deaths.

In the first days of April 2002, an IDF Paratroop Brigade moved into the area to seek out and destroy explosives, arms factories and related terrorist infrastructure. A heavily armed band of terrorist gunmen, trying to evade the IDF, moved into Manger Square but found IDF troops and tanks ready for them. That triggered a planned and premediated Palestinian Arab operation to take over the Church of the Nativity.

IDF forces began negotiations to end the takeover. The Palestinian Arabs inside the church included many who were known terrorists and Israel demanded that they surrender. They were members of Palestinian groups on the U.S. Department of State Foreign Terrorist Organizations list, including several Hamas operatives who had killed innocent civilians. Also taking cover in the Church were Tanzim militia leaders from Yasir Arafat's Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) who were involved in recent suicide bombings, plus members of the Al Aqsa Brigade.

Israel identified the terrorist individuals by name and sought to take them into custody; the Palestinian Authority refused to transfer them into Israeli hands. Nor were representatives of other governments helpful in concluding the matter. An early agreement to end the standoff failed when Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi declined to accept the gunmen, saying that no one nation could be asked to take that responsibility, and the European Union needed to find an EU solution.

Israeli negotiating initiatives for humanitarian services during the siege were also rejected. Several efforts to remove injured persons and bodies of the dead were stymied by Palestinian Arab refusal to cooperate, and when International Red Cross representatives, recruited for the task by Israel, adamantly refused to enter the Church.

As IDF operations continued in the area, a nearby explosives laboratory was found and destroyed, and a large pipe bomb in an adjacent mosque was retrieved. Several Hamas and Tanzim operatives were arrested. Eventually some of the Palestinians inside begin surrendering, while occasional exchanges of gunfire occurred. Gradually, various church staff and trapped civilians were evacuated. One by one over time, 95 persons were released during the siege.

During the occupation of the Church of the Nativity, Yasir Arafat complained of the Israelis:

How could the world possibly be silent about this atrocious crime? ... What concerns me is what is happening at the Church of the Nativity. This is a crime that cannot be forgiven.
More objective observers, such as Ariel Cohen in the National Review, saw things more clearly:

Using priests and nuns as human shields in the most sacred location for Christianity is not just barbaric. It is a violation of the 1977 First Protocol to the Geneva Convention and is a war crime. Similar cases from the Balkan wars are heard today before the International Criminal Court in the Hague. Only brutal terrorists would desecrate religious shrines and hurt clergy ...
Under worldwide pressure not to damage or desecrate the Church of the Nativity, Israel insisted that the IDF would not attack. Palestinian Arabs played on fears of a bloodbath should Israel invade the Church, but throughout the siege, the IDF held to their promise that not a single Israeli soldier would enter Church premises. An IDF spokesman said:

IDF commanders have issued specific orders to protect the integrity and sanctity of all holy places in Bethlehem, just as we do in other areas.
A priest inside told the Associated Press that only in the early days he feared the Israelis would rush the building; he later relaxed when the Greek Orthodox patriarchy assured him the Israeli army had guaranteed it would not. While early reports alleged that the IDF had broken the front door, Marc Innaro, an Italian journalist who witnessed the events, said the Palestinians had shot their way in:

They shot at the doors ... with machine-guns and they opened the doors and rushed inside. We were in a monastery, which is very close, 25 metres near to the Nativity Church.
On May 1, a fire was seen from the distance, but upon investigation turned out to be another location, in an adjacent building. Palestinian Arab "witnesses" claimed that flares fired by Israeli soldiers sparked the blaze, but Israeli government spokesman Dore Gold responded that the fire was intentionally set by Palestinian Arab fighters holed up inside.

Finally, on May 10, after 38 days, the crisis concluded with a negotiated plan. Thirteen "senior terrorists" departed for Cyprus by British aircraft, to be dispersed among various EU nations. Twenty-six more were transported to the Gaza Strip where they were to be put on trial for terrorism. But their arrival in Gaza was greeted with a celebration and they were treated as heroes. One hundred twenty-four other Palestinian Arabs inside the Church were set free.

After the Palestinians' departure, the IDF was invited inside by Church officials to look for explosives or booby traps. An IDF spokesman said that 40 "explosive devices" were found in the Church compound. The IDF reported that seven Palestinians and no Israelis died in the confrontation at the Church.

The Church was not seriously damaged, but cooking utensils, trash, and clothing were strewn around. The debris of the occupation, and the smells of the unsanitary conditions, lingered.

Subsequent to release of the terrorists into European exile, more than fifty Congressmen wrote to United States Attorney-General Ashcroft, demanding that extradition be sought for two of them. Tanzim members Ibrahim Mussa Abayat and Jihad Yusef Halil Ja'ara had murdered an American citizen in Israel before fleeing to the Church of the Nativity. Under US law, individuals who commit acts of terrorism against American nationals may be prosecuted for such acts in the United States, regardless of where the acts took place. Congress has prodded the Executive Branch for enforcement of the law.
Reply

scentsofjannah
08-07-2006, 04:41 PM
Shahak writes:

1 )The Talmud, which consists of rabbinical interpretations of the law, treats Christ and Christians with contempt. Unlike the Koran, which regards Christ as a great prophet, the Talmud contains "very offensive precepts and statements directed specifically against Christianity. For example, in addition to a series of scurrilous sexual allegations against Jesus, the Talmud states that his punishment in hell is to be immersed in boiling excrement. . . Jews are instructed to burn, publicly if possible, any copy of the New Testament that comes into their hands." (p. 21)

2) The Talmud treats non-Jews as sub human and directs Jews to discriminate against them. For example, the concept of adultery "does not apply to intercourse between a Jewish man and a gentile woman; rather, the Talmud equates such intercourse to the sin of bestiality." (87) Robbery (with violence) is strictly forbidden if the victim is Jewish, but is permitted if the victim is Gentile, "when they are under our rule." "The whole [rabbinical] debate is concerned only with the relative powers of Jews and gentiles rather than with universal considerations of justice and humanity, " Shahak writes. "This may be why so few rabbis have protested over the robbery of Palestinian property in Israel." (90)

3) Shahak disputes whether Judaism is in fact monotheistic: "In many if not most of the books of the Old Testament, the existence and powers of 'other Gods' are clearly acknowledged, but Yahweh (Jehovah) is the most powerful of his rivals, and forbids his people to worship them." The decay of monotheism came about through the spread of Jewish mysticism (the cabbala), which is now dominant and includes many prayers and actions designed to propitiate Satan. (32-33)

4) The Old Testament does not have the same place in Judaism as the New Testament has for Christianity. Most biblical verses are reinterpreted by the Talmud in a sense that is distinct and quite contrary to their literal meaning. For example, the famous verse 'thy shall love thy fellow as thyself' (Leviticus 19:18) is understood as an injunction to love one's fellow Jew not any fellow man. (37)

Israel's Discriminatory Practices Are Rooted in Jewish Religious Law- Dr Israel Shahak
http://www.washington-report.org/bac...95/9507018.htm
Reply

Lamaggad
08-07-2006, 04:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by מדינת ישׂראל
I will try to explain this to you Lammagad.

  • 6 Million Jews died because of Hitler.
  • 50 Million People died because of Hitler.


Do you understand now, or are you still confused?
nope.. i do.. thank you...

But i still disagree with the number...

bcz many authors says with logical proofs that this number is completely fake and invented by zionists... not even that, after the Holocaust they have even increased the number of the survivors so Europe would keep paying them huge number of taxes since israel is having a new stat in Palestine.

The number of people killed in the Holocaust was estimated in the film "Night and Fog," by the French director Alain Resnais, to be between eight and nine million, on the basis of documents invented by the Jews. The number dropped to four million Jews in the Soviet report to the Nuremburg trials. The figure dropped further, to 300,000 victims, according to British historian David Irving, and reached only 50,000, according to Raul Hilberg the Jew.


I have read that in many books and seen it several times in documentaries.
Reply

scentsofjannah
08-07-2006, 04:47 PM
i think its interesting to note too that Israel Shahak was once a Zionist and even participated in wars that drove out nearly a million Palestinians from Palestine.

he was a Holocaust survivor.

and he often compared his sufferings in the Nazi camps to the sufferings of the Palestinians.

heres a brief bio http://www.washington-report.org/bac...89/8906019.htm
Reply

מדינת ישׂראל
08-07-2006, 04:54 PM
1 )The Talmud, which consists of rabbinical interpretations of the law, treats Christ and Christians with contempt. Unlike the Koran, which regards Christ as a great prophet, the Talmud contains "very offensive precepts and statements directed specifically against Christianity. For example, in addition to a series of scurrilous sexual allegations against Jesus, the Talmud states that his punishment in hell is to be immersed in boiling excrement. . . Jews are instructed to burn, publicly if possible, any copy of the New Testament that comes into their hands." (p. 21)
Very big lie. Completly untrue.

Verses of the Talmud that are offensive to Christ were written in a time where Jews were given the choice in Europe to be Christian or basically kicked out.... Can you imagine the hatred of Christians that Jews felt at this time?


2) The Talmud treats non-Jews as sub human and directs Jews to discriminate against them. For example, the concept of adultery "does not apply to intercourse between a Jewish man and a gentile woman; rather, the Talmud equates such intercourse to the sin of bestiality." (87) Robbery (with violence) is strictly forbidden if the victim is Jewish, but is permitted if the victim is Gentile, "when they are under our rule." "The whole [rabbinical] debate is concerned only with the relative powers of Jews and gentiles rather than with universal considerations of justice and humanity, " Shahak writes. "This may be why so few rabbis have protested over the robbery of Palestinian property in Israel." (90)
Wow. So you have been reading the mistranslated, taken out of context hate sites of the talmud.

Act like somone who has a brain and actually read the talmud for yourself.


4) The Old Testament does not have the same place in Judaism as the New Testament has for Christianity. Most biblical verses are reinterpreted by the Talmud in a sense that is distinct and quite contrary to their literal meaning. For example, the famous verse 'thy shall love thy fellow as thyself' (Leviticus 19:18) is understood as an injunction to love one's fellow Jew not any fellow man. (37)
Completly untrue. You have no idea of what your talking about. I urge you to read the talmud instead of visiting hate sites.

The number of people killed in the Holocaust was estimated in the film "Night and Fog,"
Admin note: Please refrain from any accusations and insults.

__________

The anti-Semetic document "The Talmud Exposed", which has gained in popularity because of the Internet, claims to show the true nature and intentions of the Jewish people by quoting damning statements from the Talmud. The problem is not only are these alleged examples of nefarious Jewish tactics and bigotry taken wildly out of context but in many cases simply misquoted. But of course accuracy and good research are not the hallmarks of the bigot. As we at HateWatch say, don't just believe what you read either from the bigot or from HateWatch, do the research yourself. We suggest that you the reader take a look at the citations of both the "Talmud Exposed" and this response and compare for yourself. In doing so, we are confident that you will come to the same conclusion that we have, that the disseminators of this anti-Semtic tract are trying to forment hatred against the Jewish people by lies and half-truths.

http://groups.msn.com/Mishpocha/thetalmudpart1.msnw
Reply

scentsofjannah
08-07-2006, 04:55 PM
to our Jewish brother from the port city of Ashdod that rose to international recognition after the awful suicide bombing that occured there.

if Israelis cared about Christianity why is there discrimination, harassment of messanic jews? ie Jews who believe in Jesus Christ peace be upon him as their Awaited Messiah?

Also why were so many christians expelled from Palestine? from their towns and villages? and even had their bibles burned?

Dr. Israel Shahak of Hebrew University reports that the Israelis burned hundreds of New Testament Bibles in occupied Palestine on March 23, 1980 (cf. Jewish History, Jewish Religion, p. 21).
Reply

מדינת ישׂראל
08-07-2006, 05:00 PM
That is not sponsered by Israel's goverment. That is sponsered by some Israeli groups that do not have tolerance.

May I ask why a Muslim group in Saudi Arabia burned an actual scroll of the torah in a hate protest?

Does this represent all Muslims?
Reply

scentsofjannah
08-07-2006, 05:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by מדינת ישׂראל
Very big lie. Completly untrue.

Verses of the Talmud that are offensive to Christ were written in a time where Jews were given the choice in Europe to be Christian or basically kicked out.... Can you imagine the hatred of Christians that Jews felt at this time?




Wow. So you have been reading the mistranslated, taken out of context hate sites of the talmud.

Act like somone who has a brain and actually read the talmud for yourself.



Completly untrue. You have no idea of what your talking about. I urge you to read the talmud instead of visiting hate sites.




It all makes sense now. Not only do you hate israel lammagad but you are a holocaust revisionist, and you side with neo-nazi's and very well known anti-semites.

__________

The anti-Semetic document "The Talmud Exposed", which has gained in popularity because of the Internet, claims to show the true nature and intentions of the Jewish people by quoting damning statements from the Talmud. The problem is not only are these alleged examples of nefarious Jewish tactics and bigotry taken wildly out of context but in many cases simply misquoted. But of course accuracy and good research are not the hallmarks of the bigot. As we at HateWatch say, don't just believe what you read either from the bigot or from HateWatch, do the research yourself. We suggest that you the reader take a look at the citations of both the "Talmud Exposed" and this response and compare for yourself. In doing so, we are confident that you will come to the same conclusion that we have, that the disseminators of this anti-Semtic tract are trying to forment hatred against the Jewish people by lies and half-truths.

http://groups.msn.com/Mishpocha/thetalmudpart1.msnw
Dr Israel Shahak was a jew and was once a zionist..he writes about how he witnessed something he couldnt believe..a jewish man refused his phone to be used to call an ambulance for a nonjew lying in the middle of his street during Sabbath.

He then went to the chief Rabbis to ask them if this violated Jewish laws..they told him 'yes' after this he decided to study Jewish reliigous scriptures including the Talmud and he made the statements above based on whats written in the Talmud. He isnt the first person to say this..many Rabbis have spoken about how Jews are superior to nonjews...btw its not a hate site..its from nonzionist jewish site.

but thanks for the link i will definitely have a look at it
Reply

scentsofjannah
08-07-2006, 05:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by מדינת ישׂראל
That is not sponsered by Israel's goverment. That is sponsered by some Israeli groups that do not have tolerance.

May I ask why a Muslim group in Saudi Arabia burned an actual scroll of the torah in a hate protest?

Does this represent all Muslims?

can you provide me with a link? i they did to this ..its extremely sad...but then again what can you say about people who follow an extreme interpretation of Islam.
Reply

Lamaggad
08-07-2006, 05:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by מדינת ישׂראל
It all makes sense now. Not only do you hate israel lammagad but you are a holocaust revisionist, and you side with neo-nazi's and very well known anti-semites.
Haha, Chill man.. it's a discussion :giggling: ... stop acting like a freak and no need to offend me by the stupid anti-Semitic thing that Jews take advantage of every time some one disagree with them...

explain to me why would Jewish authors says that about the holocaust..?! are they anti-Semitic Jew too..?!?! I qouted what i've said from them? i didn't disagree from no were...

I have said why i disagree and posted my proofs.. if you disagree prove me wrong and tell me your opinion... no need to be a freak...

i did not offend you in person, i was discussing the number of the people who died...

I think you should read this book.. Holocaust Industry.. it explains what i have said very well... :)
Reply

מדינת ישׂראל
08-07-2006, 05:10 PM
Haha, Chill man.. it's a discussion ... stop acting like a freak and no need to offend me by the stupid anti-Semitic thing that Jews take advantage of every time some one disagree with them...
Its no longer a discussion when it is someone who denies the holocaust and the crimes the Nazi's commited.

You can't have a discussion with someone who hates Jews like yourself.

__________________________________________________ ____
Dr. Israel Shahak - Liar of our time

Israel Shahak is a retired Israeli teacher of chemistry who travels the world to lecture on the evils of Zionism and the Jewish religion. His claims and opinions are so bizarre that, by themselves, they could not justify paying any attention to this book. But the work comes to us with an urgent recommendation from Noam Chomsky on its cover and with an essay by Gore Vidal as a foreword. Bearing this double cachet, the book will undoubtedly find its way to the shelves of bookstores and, at least in some limited way, to the attention of people on the Left.

Dr. Shahak says that he wants Jews to change their ways and to stop the atrocities associated with Zionism and Orthodox Jewish religion. As a first step, he wants us to face the terrible crimes that were committed by of our ancestors. One way of doing this, he says (pp. 72-3), is to develop a positive attitude toward "popular [his emphasis] anti-Jewish manifestations of the past." His prime example are the Chmielnicki massacres of 17th century Ukraine, which he wants us to celebrate as a progressive uprising:

Do decent English historians, even when noting the massacres of Englishmen by rebellious Irish peasant rising against their enslavement, condemn the latter as 'anti-English racists' ? What is the attitude of progressive French historians towards the great slave revolution in Santo Domingo, where many French women and children were butchered ? To ask the question is to answer it.

It is indeed.

Dr. Shahak is full of startling revelations, if that is the word, about Jewish history and the Jewish religion. None of those I was able to check had any foundation.

Some are just funny. He says (pp. 23-4) that "Jewish children are actually taught" to utter a ritual curse when passing a non-Jewish cemetery. He also tells us (p. 34) that "both before and after a meal, a pious Jew ritually washes his hands....On one of these two occasions he is worshiping God... but on the other he is worshiping Satan..."

I did take the trouble to question my orthodox rabbi nephew to find what might be behind such tall tales. He had no clue. If orthodox Jews were actually taught such hateful things, surely someone would have heard. Whom is Dr. Shahak kidding ?

Orthodox Jews, according to Shahak, frequently kill those whose views they do not like. "For example, in the late 1830's a 'Holy Rabbi' (Tzadik) in a small Jewish town in the Ukraine ordered the murder of a heretic by throwing him into the boiling water of the town baths..." Shahak gives neither the name of the town nor the year of this alleged killing. We are asked to take this tale on his say-so alone (p. 17).

In another story he gives enough detail to find a reference to the incident in the Encyclopaedia Judaica. It seems that a liberal rabbi and his family were poisoned in Lemberg (now Lvov) in 1848. According to the EJ, some orthodox fanatics were suspected of the crime. Where the EJ reports an unsolved case, which may indeed have been due to food poisoning, Shahak knows precisely who the murderers were: "the leaders of the Jewish community." How does he know this ? He won't say. This is the very stuff of the paranoid approach to historiography. (P. 17)

One of Shahak's charges has been taken very seriously. Some thirty years ago Shahak reported to the press that he had personally witnessed the following incident: an orthodox Jew saw an injured non-Jew on the Sabbath. To save the man's life, it was necessary to call an ambulance. The Jew had the phone handy but would not allow a violation of the sabbath, i.e. use of the phone, because the injured was a non-Jew. In Shahak's version, with which he begins this book, the Jew here followed the ruling the of orthodox rabbinate. The story was taken up by Ha-Arets in Israel, then by the Jewish Chronicle in London and other publications, all joining in a clamor against the barbaric orthodox. (Dr. Shahak does not seem to notice that this clamor, which he duly notes, is in itself a refutation of his charge that current Jewish life is dominated by orthodox inhumanity).

Dr. Shahak, whose nose is longer than Pinocchio's in any case, does not tell us the whole story of the incident. In the Summer 1966 issue of Tradition, an orthodox Jewish journal, we have the much more credible account by Rabbi Immanuel Jakobovits (later the Chief Rabbi of the British Commonwealth). First of all, according to Rabbi Jakobovits, and contrary to Shahak's allegation, the rabbinate had ruled clearly that not only can the Sabbath be violated under such circumstances, but such violation would be a religious duty, to save a non-Jewish life no less than a Jewish life. Moreover, we also learn that Dr. Shahak, when challenged to produce his "orthodox Jew," was forced to admit that this Jew did not exist.

####

For the text of Lord Jakobovits's paper, please click on http://www.edah.org/backend/document/jakobovits1.html

####

Much of Shahak's book, and all of his Chapter 5, are given to the allegation that the Talmud requires or permits Jews to commit crimes, including murder, against non-Jews. Here Shahak follows an old anti-Semitic tradition that began with the 1700 work Entdecktes Judenthum (Judaism Revealed) by Johann Eisenmenger.

There are gravely offensive passages in the Talmud. (And there are, as we know from our most recent history, some Jewish fringe groups who interpret traditional Jewish writings in a hateful, xenophobic manner.) Eisenmenger did not distort the Talmud, but he interpreted it maliciously. There are many mutually contradictory passages in the Talmud, and a great deal depends on methods of interpretation. The rabbis have never allowed the immoral Talmudic interpretations which Eisenmenger and his followers attribute to Judaism. Moreover, the Talmud is not unique in containing offensive material. As many scholars have pointed out, a hostile commentator could easily produce a Christianity Revealed to provide a basis for a (similarly unjustified) anti-Christian campaign. The problem of hostile Talmud interpretation is very thoroughly discussed in the first chapter of the scholarly work by Jacob Katz, From Prejudice to Destruction. Anti-Semitism, 1700-1933. Those sufficiently interested in this area to read Shahak should also take a look at Katz.

I was recently curious to learn how Talmudic teachings concerning non-Jews are actually transmitted to our generation of Jews. The Encyclopedia Talmudica, founded by Rabbi Meyer Berlin (Bar-Ilan), has a full discussion (volume 1, pp. 274-5). This source teaches that non-Jews are to be loved in the same manner as Jews; in particular, robbing a non-Jew is the same as robbing a Jew; the non-Jewish sick are to be visited just as the Jewish sick; and so forth. All this is in very direct contradiction to the assertions by Dr. Shahak, who tells us, over and over, that all religious Jews teach hatred (and worse) of non-Jews.

With very little trouble, anyone can learn for himself that the wild accusations by Israel Shahak have no foundations whatever. And this brings us back to Noam Chomsky and Gore Vidal. Chomsky's contribution to this work is confined to two sentences, which are worth citing: "Shahak is an outstanding scholar, with remarkable insight and depth of knowledge. His work is informed and penetrating, a contribution of great value."

For his part, Gore Vidal tells us that an (unnamed) "American Zionist" brought Harry Truman two million dollars in cash in 1948 and that as a result US recognition of Israel went through very fast. Nevertheless, says Vidal, he himself is not an anti-Semite. Somewhat later, he finds that Shahak is particularly "...a joy to read on the great Gentile-hating Dr. Maimonides."

The association of these men with this little booklet was meant to lend credence to Dr. Shahak. I think that, on the contrary, it brings dishonor -- further dishonor -- to Chomsky and Vidal.

N.B. The French edition of Shahak's book is published by the neo-Nazi publishing house La Vieille Taupe of Paris. This edition, like the English, carries Gore Vidal's introduction. But while it lacks the endorsement of Noam Chomsky, it features a particularly egregious "avant propos" by Edward Said of Columbia University. For details, see my webpage "What Edward Said Knows."

PS (June 2001): It appears that there is an English edition of the Shahak book that also contains the Said introduction. The edition of Shahak's book advertised by amazon.com says, on its cover, that it has a foreword by Said. WC

Addendum (July 2005): For additional reading, please see "The Interpretational Errors of Israel Shahak" by Professor Andrew E. Mathis.
Reply

nennar
08-07-2006, 05:12 PM
sister! scentofjannah!
you are so right heigou doesent know the meaning of compassion......which actually is kind of sad
Reply

Lamaggad
08-07-2006, 05:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by מדינת ישׂראל
That is not sponsered by Israel's goverment. That is sponsered by some Israeli groups that do not have tolerance.

May I ask why a Muslim group in Saudi Arabia burned an actual scroll of the torah in a hate protest?

Does this represent all Muslims?
Never seen it... but if it did happen then that's bad since we do believe in Torah too, and we should respect it and respect other beliefs.

so your answer is no... that doesn't represent all Muslims...

Muslims generally are against zionism not Judaism.
Reply

Lamaggad
08-07-2006, 05:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by מדינת ישׂראל
Its no longer a discussion when it is someone who denies the holocaust and the crimes the Nazi's commited.

You can't have a discussion with someone who hates Jews like yourself.
State to me NOW were I have denied the holocaust... and were did i say i hate Jews?!?!

I also can't have a discussion with a freak who doesn't respect freedom of speech.
Reply

Skillganon
08-07-2006, 11:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lamaggad
I also can't have a discussion with a freak who doesn't respect freedom of speech.[
Lets get a freak into this forum and test it out. LOL
Reply

north_malaysian
08-08-2006, 02:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by מדינת ישׂראל
That is not sponsered by Israel's goverment. That is sponsered by some Israeli groups that do not have tolerance.

May I ask why a Muslim group in Saudi Arabia burned an actual scroll of the torah in a hate protest?

Does this represent all Muslims?
How did they manage to have a 'torah' in Saudi Arabia???:rollseyes :rollseyes
Reply

SirZubair
08-08-2006, 08:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by מדינת ישׂראל
some people here cannot even handle the image of peace.
I am a 'devient sufi', im one of those 'weird people' who believes in peace. :rollseyes
Reply

SirZubair
08-08-2006, 08:56 AM
The well known civil rights activist Martin Luther King Jr. said that in order for people to condemn injustice, they must go through four stages.

The first stage is that people must ascertain that indeed injustices are being perpetrated. In his case, it was the injustices against African Americans in the United States.

The second stage is to negotiate, that is, approach the oppressor and demand justice. If the ppressor refuses, King said that the third stage is Self-Purification, which starts with the question: "Are we ourselves wrongdoers?" Are we ourselves oppressors?"

The fourth stage, this, is to take action after true self-examination, after removing one's own wrongs before demanding justice from others.

We of the modern world are reluctant to ask ourselves -- when we look at the terrible things that are happening -- "why do they occur?" and if we ask that with all sincerity, the answer will come resondingly: "All of this from our own selves." In so many ways we have brought this upon ourselves. This is the only empowering postion we can take. The quran implies that if a people opress others, god will send another people to oppress then; We Put some oppressors over other oppressors because of what their own hands have earned (Quran 6:129)

According to Fakhruddin Al-Razi (a 12th century scholar of the Quran), the verse means that the existence of the oppression on earth may be caused by previous oppressions. By implication, often the victims of aggression were once aggressors themselves.

This, however is not the case with Tribulations, for there are times in which people are indeed tried, but if they respond with patience and persevance, God will always give them relief and victory. If we examine the life of the Prophet Muhammed S.A.W in Makkah, it's clear that he and the community of believers were being harmed and oppressed, but Prophet Muhammed S.A.W was not only free of oppression, but became the leader of the entire arabian peninsula. Those people who once opressed him now sought mercy from him; and he was most gracious and kind in his response. Despite their former brutality toward him, the Prophet (s.a.w) forgave them and admitted them into the brotherhood of faith ( And here you are,on forums, complaining every second of the day..)

THIS is the difference between someone whose heart is purified and sound, and one whose heart is impure and corrupt. Impure people oppress, and the pure hearted not only Forgive their oppressors but elevate them in status and character. In order to purify ourselves, we must begin to recognize this truth.


And if we turn around and do exactly what they do, we have no moral legs to stand on. If we do as they do, we can't say "look at what israel is doing...". IF you live in a glass house, don't throw any stones.
Reply

north_malaysian
08-08-2006, 08:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SirZubair
I am a 'devient sufi', im one of those 'weird people' who believes in peace. :rollseyes
you practice Sufism? Which 'tariqat"?
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SirZubair
08-08-2006, 09:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
you practice Sufism? Which 'tariqat"?
PM time :p

( and NO, i don't practise sufism, but i've been called a "Sufi devient" by afew of the Angry Posters on here :rollseyes )
Reply

Woodrow
08-08-2006, 09:05 AM
I believe this thread has finaly reached the end of it's usefullness. It is now essentialy merely an instruement to breed personal attacks.

If I let this thread persist for too long forgive me. I felt that opinions needed to be aired. Which was done. But, there is no place for personal attacks.

:threadclo
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