Can A Christian explain these quotes??

[QuranStudy]

I have no intension of offending any Christian here, but I really need their point of view on these quotes as they are bugging me.

1 Samuel 15:2-4
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.

Psalm 137:8-9
8 O daughter of Babylon, O destroyed one, O the happiness of him who repayeth to thee thy deed, That thou hast done to us.
9 O the happiness of him who doth seize, And hath dashed thy sucklings on the rock!

Numbers 31:17-18 (New International Version)

17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

"The girl's father and mother shall produce the evidence of the girl's virginity before the elders of the town at the gate. And the girl's father shall say to the elders, "I gave this man my daughter to wife, but he had taken an aversion to her; so he has made up charges, saying, 'I did not find your daughter a virgin.' But here is the evidence of my daughter's virginity!" And they shall spread out the cloth before the elders of the town. (From the New JPS translation, Deuteronomy 22:15-17)"

"Marrying off one's daughter as soon after she reaches adulthood as possible, even to one's Slave. (From the Talmud, Pesachim 113a)"

"...and the birth of ANY daughter is a loss. (From the New Jerusalem Bible, Ecclesiasticus 22:3)"

"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a MALE child: then she shall be unclean SEVEN DAYS; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean. And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying THIRTY THREE days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled. But if she bear a FEMALE child, then she shall be unclean TWO WEEKS, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying SIXTY SIX days. (From the NIV Bible, Leviticus 12:2-5)"

Thanks

[ManchesterFolk]

I can awnser these :)

1 Samuel 15:2-4
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.

Amalek was an evil person who God commanded not be aloud to live and no trace of him be aloud to exist on his earth.

17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Women who were virgins were still pure and still not affected by the evil ways of the people who hated the Lord.

"The girl's father and mother shall produce the evidence of the girl's virginity before the elders of the town at the gate. And the girl's father shall say to the elders, "I gave this man my daughter to wife, but he had taken an aversion to her; so he has made up charges, saying, 'I did not find your daughter a virgin.' But here is the evidence of my daughter's virginity!" And they shall spread out the cloth before the elders of the town. (From the New JPS translation, Deuteronomy 22:15-17)"

If a women commits adultry accused by her Husband then she must prove him wrong by showing she is a virgin till marriage.

"Marrying off one's daughter as soon after she reaches adulthood as possible, even to one's Slave. (From the Talmud, Pesachim 113a)"

Are you saying slaves are so subhuman they cannot marry a girl who is not a slave?

"...and the birth of ANY daughter is a loss. (From the New Jerusalem Bible, Ecclesiasticus 22:3)"

A son ill taught is the confusion of the father: and a foolish daughter shall be to his loss. is the correct quote of Ecclesiasticus 22:3.

http://www.newadvent.org/bible/sir022.htm

"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a MALE child: then she shall be unclean SEVEN DAYS; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean. And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying THIRTY THREE days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled. But if she bear a FEMALE child, then she shall be unclean TWO WEEKS, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying SIXTY SIX days. (From the NIV Bible, Leviticus 12:2-5)"

Sounds like a ritual of what women do after giving birth. Do you wish to view this in an intellectual manner of WHY? Well I don't pretend to understand half of what God commands.

[glo]

I have no intention of offending any Christian here, but I really need their point of view on these quotes as they are bugging me
Thanks.

QuranStudy, can I ask you why these particular quotes are bugging you?

Chances are, you will not get many people to reply to you - my guess is for these reasons:

• People may feel you are trying to attack or discredit their holy book, which they hold sacred
• It is difficult, if not impossible, to take Bible quotes out of context
• The quotes you have chosen, are of the obscure and controversial variety, which have probably been much debated and never truly answered ...

Other non-Muslims have explained this in other threads very well indeed, but for the sake of this thread I will try to recap:

You have to understand that the Bible and the Qu'ran are very different books, and consequently Christians do not read and understand Bible verses in the same way as Muslims do with Qu'ran verses.
Consequently Muslims cannot try to read the Bible in the same way in which they read the Qu'ran ... or if they try they will come away confused and bewildered.

Muslims believe that the Qu'ran is God's direct word, dictated to Muhammed, who recited it over a period of some 30 years (am I right?). God's chosen language is Arabic, translations into other languages are considered inferior and distorted (am I still right?)

Christians believe that the Bible describes the history of God's relationship with his people. It was written by many people, in different languages, over hundreds of years - and on top of that, it was translated into many different languages and Bible versions.
Christians trust the Bible to be true, not because it has been restricted to one person, one period in time or one language ... but because God protects his word and has divinely inspired the different authors to pass on his message to mankind.
The very fact that despite the many writers, languages and ages, the Bible message remains so constant and points towards Jesus, lets Christians believe that it is indeed the word of God!

I have heard it said, that God's revelation to his people is not the Bible (the written word), but Jesus' life (the living word). In other words, Jesus is the fulfilment of God's word!
And I rather like that explanation!

Undeniably, there are parts in the Bible, which seem contradictory, confusing or even disagreeable. But those are not reasons to disregard the Bible as God's word.
Perhaps you cannot see that, because it seems to be a real stumbling block to Muslims - but you may find that Christians are not particularly troubled by these things.

Lengthy discussions about the Bible and the Qu'ran in this forum, have made me realise that our holy books clearly demonstrate the fundamental differences between our faiths:

Muslims believe the Qu'ran to be God's revelation to his people, which needs to be obeyed on a daily basis.

Christians believe the Bible to be God's revelation to his people, which needs to be applied to the daily life.

Or in other words:

Islam focusses on the importance of obedience to Allah.

Christianity focusses on the importance of being in relationship with God.

I should add that these are my personal views only, and that I am by no means a scholar of Bible, Qu'ran or indeed religious studies!

I kind of hope that this may be the end of futile Bible/Qu'ran debates and arguments ... although I feel that may be wishful thinking ... :rollseyes

If you are interested in understanding how Christians read and apply the Bible, it may be better to start with the basics, rather then with complicated and controversial verses. :)

peace.

[جوري]

Glo... I understand what you are saying... the way we view it... God always sends adominitions and reminders through his messangers... not for these people or those people but to all people... Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) is knows as the Ben Yameen (benjamin) of the prophet according to one catholic priest who converted... since ben yameen was the youngest and last brother to Joesph he used the anaology that prophet mohammed (PBUH) is the last of God's messangers... we Muslims believe in all of God's scriptures.. we believe in Jews and Christians as people of the book...
in the quran it states...
آمَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِن رَّبِّهِ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللّهِ وَمَلآئِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ لاَ نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّن رُّسُلِهِ وَقَالُواْ سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا غُفْرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ {285}
[Pickthal 2:285] The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying.

and it also states

اللّهِ لِيَشْتَرُواْ بِهِ ثَمَناً قَلِيلاً فَوَيْلٌ لَّهُم مِّمَّا كَتَبَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَوَيْلٌ لَّهُمْ مِّمَّا يَكْسِبُونَ {79}
[Pickthal 2:79] Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.

so you can see why we believe that scriptures were altered...
I agree we shouldnt have to discuss any verses out of context... but Islam isn't set to make people worship out of punishment...

God says and I can't find the proper hadith Qudsi right now
Neither heaven nor earth will contain (encompass) me but will the heart of my believing servant.... Islam is very exapansive and it covers all facets... as I am sure was the intent of Judiasm and christianity... let's not sum up all that glory in two sentences....

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[glo]

I understand all that, Ambrosia. Thank you for your reply. :)

Peace.

[جوري]

peace to you... don't you just love those cards? I just had to share hehe :smile:

[QuranStudy]

Thank you for the answers. In order to understand a particular faith, it is imperative that one understand the very controversial aspects. I apologise if I hurt anyone's feelings.

[Umar001]

Amalek was an evil person who God commanded not be aloud to live and no trace of him be aloud to exist on his earth.

The passage says:

3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Now, Amalek is not just one person, rather it is a people like Israel, with Children, yet those kids are ordered to be killed, even the animals.

Women who were virgins were still pure and still not affected by the evil ways of the people who hated the Lord.

17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

So if a woman sleeps with a person she is effected by the ways of her people, but one who doesn't isn't? Interesting logic, hmm, I would have thought, one who lives in a society longer, on average is more like that society or he is effected more, yet the Boys who are young, are being killed while the girls who maybe the same age or so are being spared, not every girl, just the virgins. Interesting.


Glo, I totally disagree, well not totally, but I'll leave it since I don't think it will make any difference in the sense that people may feel 'he's attacking this and that'

Sister

I read about the Hadeeth:

# Al-'Ijlouni says, "Al-Ghazali mentioned it in Ihya' 'Ulum al-Din with the wording, Allah says, "Neither My heaven nor My earth could contain Me, but the soft, humble heart of my believing slave can contain Me." Al-'Iraqi said in his notes on Al-Ihya', "I do not find a basis (i.e. isnad) for it", and al-Suyuti agreed with him, following al-Zarkashi. Al-'Iraqi then said, "But in the hadith of Abu 'Utbah in al-Tabarani there occurs: ... the vessels of your Lord are the hearts of His righteous slaves, and the most beloved to Him are the softest and most tender ones." Ibn Taimiyyah said, "It is mentioned in the Israelite traditions, but there is no known isnad from the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) for it." Al-Sakhawi said in Al- Maqasid, following his shaykh al-Suyuti in Al- La'ali, "There is no known isnad from the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) for it, and its meaning is that his heart can contain belief in Me, love of Me and gnosis of Me. But as for the one who says that Allah incarnates in the hearts of the people, then he is more of an infidel than the Christians, who specified that to Christ alone. It seems that Ibn Taimiyyah's mention of Israelite tradition refers to what Ahmad has related in Al-Zuhd from Wahb b. Munabbih who said that Allah opened the heavens for Ezekiel until he saw the Throne, so Ezekiel said, 'How Perfect are You! How Mighty are You, O Lord!' So Allah said, 'Truly, the heavens and the earth were too weak to contain Me, but the soft, humble heart of my believing slave contains Me'." He also quoted from al- Zarkashi's writing that one of the scholars said that it is a false hadith, fabricated by a renegade (from the religion), and that it is most-often quoted by a preacher to the masses, 'Ali b. Wafa, for his own purposes, who says at the time of spiritual rapture and dance, "Go round the House of your Lord." He further said that al-Tabarani has related from Abu 'Utbah al- Khawlani as marfu', "Truly, Allah has vessels from amongst the people of the earth, and the vessels of your Lord are the hearts of his righteous slaves, and the most beloved of them to Him are the softest and most tender ones"; in its isnad is Baqiyyah b. al-Walid, a mudallis, but he has clearly stated hearing the hadith."90 Al-Albani rates this last hadith mentioned as hasan.91

Source

[therebbe]

So if a woman sleeps with a person she is effected by the ways of her people, but one who doesn't isn't?

If a women sleeps with an evil man, she is no different to a virgin who did not commit adultry?