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Sheikh Haroon
01-02-2005, 12:04 PM
:sl:
Salaam All.

I am having some serious problem with some peoples attitude towards jihad, the true jihad. I explained that Jihad is in the heart, most and foremost. And then, if need be, as a defence for the community, to remove fear or a threat, then there is a Jihad; a struggle. Against injustice. Holy War is foreign to Islam, its what the Christians Crusaders did, but in Islam, its a struggle for truth.

Now what on earth is wrong with that? U know the US and its war-allies, have fought muslims around the world now for about 3 years, and still no one REALLY thinks badly of them. They seem to think it was ok for so much death and destruction just because, "radical Talibans stone a woman to death". Which was extreme, yes. But still, no one sees the oppressors of Islam as anything but liberators. I mean, no names mentioned, but a lot of non Muslims have a BIG problem when someone says "fight for your rights",...."oh u violent, crazy murderers", but the US doesnt EVEN PROVIDE A DECENT REASON, and they lap it all up without much complaint. The intellectuals of today, are soooooooo clever that ud think they'd actually see the truth of Jihad, in its correct context.

"Violence is not the answer". I have strongly stressed that Islam is not out to kill, it is out to dialogue, simple. However, defence is not a bad option. If someone is coming to kill your mother, are u going to sit there and say "peace", and not try to stop him? Well, if ud just sit there, then ur completely lost in the head, because u should fight against injustice. U should fight with ur life against justice. Islam is a perfect way of life, nothing can be criticised, nor should anything be compromised to meet the wants of the non Muslims. So if someone says they dont like the idea of Jihad, then we should just explain it to them, not cut it out as being an "extreme" measure.

Regards.
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root
01-06-2005, 03:05 PM
I am having some serious problem with some peoples attitude towards jihad, the true jihad. I explained that Jihad is in the heart, most and foremost. And then, if need be, as a defence for the community, to remove fear or a threat, then there is a Jihad; a struggle. Against injustice. Holy War is foreign to Islam, its what the Christians Crusaders did, but in Islam, its a struggle for truth.
I am a non religous person, and I believe that Islam and Muslim's heve been oppressed, slaughtered and suffered terribly for their belief during the Christian crusades. I don't beleive that Islam is spread through violence, though it is violent we should make no mistake about that.

We live in a free society that affords us the right to be free thinkers. I beleive that Islam strives for an Islamic World and the world is struggling at present with what it must comprehend and accept since our values are hugely different, and then we must ask what are we to do about Islam in the modern world.

They seem to think it was ok for so much death and destruction just because, "radical Talibans stone a woman to death". Which was extreme, yes.
If you truly beleive your above quote, their is little point in continuing for you are showing the same narrow mindedness as what you accuse your accusers of doing!!!!!

if you was to have a referendum right now in the UK as to wether or not the UK should adopt Islamic Rule's (By the way their are two Muslims "I think" in the houses of parliament.)

What do you think the results would be!

Now, assume that Islam continues to grow at the rate it is with the immigration of Muslim's from other countries, as very slowly over a few hundred years or so one could not rule out that the Muslim population of the UK would become a majority, and by our own beleifs of a free society nothing could stop the UK becoming a United Islamic Kingdom. This slow death, is not wild accusations since we draw upon history and the plight of the Christian Albanians in what is now Turkey.

The intellectuals of today, are soooooooo clever that ud think they'd actually see the truth of Jihad, in its correct context
In the west, intellectuals have abandoned any idea of God as religion would describe.

I am ignorant, of course I am. I am from a christian country and do I want my children taught by Islam or brainwashed by Christianity. No thanks..................

It was interesting to note the tsunami "natural disaster". Don't know if anyone seen it. They discussed the religous implications of what had happened given it was God that caused this, It was represented by the presenter, a Muslim (Senior member of British Muslim Association), a Preist (High up - not sure, seems I know more about Islamic way of thinking these days than Christian) and A professor of physics.

Did anybody see it!

Their seems to be a lot of talk in this forum about the "end" of the world and signs of such. and 1 by one they all put their pennies in, til the atheist said anyone who kills indescriminately women, children, babies on such a huge scale. We label this action "terrorism" by definition, then God must be a terrorist. A natural disaster is a natural disaster, the rest (as he suggested to the other two) is jus pure gobble gook. Just like the pictures showing Mosks still standing. And try to claim a "miracle" or a deeper pupose for this. Yet, all pictures are seen with trees standing!!!!!

Have you ever thought that the west itself has suffered for years at the hands of the Christians, and we don't want to go the same way with Islam..... Since by definition in a beleif in the bible. How can you truly be free or are you, "only free as long as you agree with Islam"

And not a mention of 1 important scientific issue...... How comes the wild-life did remarkably so well at "sensing" the danger and moving in land!!!! not one mentioned this.... at all, only the hairy fairy notion that some deep power was at hand. Life seems to be asier when u can explain it...

Hope it helps

Thanks
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tawbah
01-07-2005, 07:22 PM
As salaamualaykum wa rahmatullahi wa baraakatuh

Akhee , I have issue's too regarding Jihaad. Simply cannot understand how it can be abhorred so much when it is beloved in the sight of Allaah. Without Jihaad - quite frankly Islaam does not exist.

Why were the Talibaan whom stoned the woman extreme and radical?
Whom says that Jihaad is of the heart first and formost?

Wa salaamualaykum wa rahmatullahi wa baraakatuh
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aamirsaab
01-07-2005, 09:49 PM
the taliban are seen as extreme by the media and gwb @ co

they dislike islamic culture

but the us government has always disliked some1 elses culutre e.g. vietnam war started because the us govment h8 communism - whats wrong with communism! i tell u - nutthing. it is just a different method of living. who were the US govment to go and blast the hell outa vietnam.? Who were the US govnment to blast the hell outa afghanistan and iraq?
thats the question that needs to be answered.

now u see with the wild life they are pretty darn intelligent. most of em have probably good senses like hearing etc and probably knew it was coming. furhtermore have u ever raced a cheeter or any wild life animals - they are pretty damn fast 2! well from wot iv seen on tv at least :D
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A. Mukhtar
01-07-2005, 10:05 PM
In the Name of Allah Most Gracious Most Merciful.

I would like to state few points here regarding your viewpoint on Jihad.

First of all, we cannot deny that Jihad is something that exists and had taken place in the past.

Jihad means exertion, striving; but in juridico-religious sense, it signifies the exertion of one's power to the utmost of one's capacity in the cause of Allah. This is why the word Jihad has been used as the antonym to the word Qu'ud (sitting) in the Holy Qur'an (iv. 95). Thus Jihad in Islam is not an act of violence directed indiscriminately against the non-Muslims; it is the name given to an all-round struggle which a Muslim should launch against evil in whatever form or shape it appears. Fighting in the way of Allah) is only one aspect of Jihad”.

Muslims have always been taking part in Jihad, but Jihad is only allowed in prescribed circumstances. There is nowhere in the Qur’an where Allah directly asks the Muslims to undertake Jihad without justification.

First of all Allah says states this in the Qur’an:

Allah commands justice, the doing of good, and liberality to kith and kin, and He forbids all shameful deeds, and injustice and rebellion: He instructs you, that ye may receive admonition”.
(Quran, An-Nahl, 16:90)

Allah ‘commands’, not recommends or would like to see… Allah commands justice. And reiterates in the same verse by saying ‘forbids… injustice’. Let me talk about the injustices that are taking place around the world where Muslims are suffering. I am sure you’ll agree whether you are a Muslim or Christian or without belief that Palestinians are being oppressed by the Israelis. Palestinians are predominantly Muslims. Chechnya faces the same problem, this time by the Russians. Iraq and Afghanistan is under the control of U.S. with the ‘considered’ mighty military force occupying. Not forgetting the unlawful arrests of Muslims held in kennel like shelters in Guantanamo Bay. They are not even being allowed the basic human rights and refused to have a fair lawful trial. How many injustices are happening around the world and in what form? These are the known ones and the ones made known to us by the Media. Who knows of the ‘unseen’ ones, and their severity?

Allah questions, he asks us in the Quran:

And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"
(Quran, An-Nisaa 4:75)

The Verse above was revealed in a circumstance that could be described similar to the present oppression against this generation of Muslims around the world.

The very first revelation in which the permission to wage war against the forces of evil sums up the aims and objects of Qital (striving in the way of Allah in whatever form one is able to in accordance with the needs that arise) in Islam:

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;- ” (Quran, Al-Hajj, 22:39)

The above Verse allows those who are oppressors to be fought, in other words to make Jihad against them.

And Allah reinforces it in this Verse:

O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him”.
(Quran, At-Tawbah, 9:123)

So, I think people understand that Jihad is not just fighting against the non-Muslims. It starts with you. You strive with your life, you perform Jihad against your life first, and then, ‘if applicable’, against the unbelievers who oppress you. This is how the true Muslim should adhere to. Of course there will be some people who would make their own laws or take things to the extreme, ‘transgressing the limits’. And this what Allah says to them, while making sure they undertake His cause.

Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors”.
(Quran, Al-Baqarah, 2:190)

Final question, who would you believe? Will you listen to the media and the sole ignorant views and deeds of an ordinary individual or the words of the Quran? The unbeliever will try everything to distort the truth but the true word will still stand.

I hope that makes clear.

Coming to the ‘Tsunami Disaster’.

Quote (Root):

“… We label this action "terrorism" by definition, then God must be a terrorist”.

I would not suggest that God is a ‘terrorist’. You are making a blasphemous statement about God. This is a geological disaster, which has happened and happens always with the knowledge and power of Allah. And you should understand that God creates every living being and says that they shall die at a time prescribed.

Allah also says that this life of the world is a world of trial but the hereafter is the one that is eternal.

Every soul shall have a taste of death: and only on the Day of Judgment shall you be paid your full recompense. Only he who is saved far from the Fire and admitted to the Garden will have attained the object (of life): For the life of this world is but goods and chattels of deception”.
(Quran, Al-Imran, 3:185)

ALLAH KNOWS BEST.
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root
01-09-2005, 08:35 PM
Quote (Root):

“… We label this action "terrorism" by definition, then God must be a terrorist”.
To elabotare on this. To avoid ANY confusion. I was qouting a view passed on the BBCNews 24 service in a discussion about the religious aspects of the disaster. Chaired by a Muslim from the (Muslim Association of Britain), a priest and an atheist. It was this that was put to the table by one of the participants. This is called "freedom of speech", are you suggesting that this should not be allowed to be aired?

They are not even being allowed the basic human rights and refused to have a fair lawful trial. How many injustices are happening around the world and in what form?
If your so concerned about oppressed countries, why do you always quote western countries, and NEVER Islamic ones.

Not forgetting the unlawful arrests of Muslims held in kennel like shelters in Guantanamo Bay. They are not even being allowed the basic human rights and refused to have a fair lawful trial. How many injustices are happening around the world and in what form? These are the known ones and the ones made known to us by the Media. Who knows of the ‘unseen’ ones, and their severity?
Final question, who would you believe? Will you listen to the media and the sole ignorant views and deeds of an ordinary individual or the words of the Quran?
Your contradicting yourself. Firstly by drawing upon the "media" to prove that certain people are oppressed. And then stating that the media hold ignorant veiws against views that differ from yours.

The only thing I hear from you is "You are free to have an opinion, as long it it agrees with us"

Peace...........

I'll do u a favour and leave this forum. Your not ready to debate with people like me............
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Khattab
01-10-2005, 01:57 AM
you dont need to go everyone is welcome here
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A. Mukhtar
01-10-2005, 05:06 PM
Root, thank you very much for the reply to my comment.

I would like to state couple of points here.

First of all you said:


Quote:


"This is called "freedom of speech", are you suggesting that this should not be allowed to be aired?"


No, I am not suggesting that 'freedom of speech' should be banned or aired. It looks like you have not read my words properly. I said, quoting from what I previously:


"I would not suggest that God is a ‘terrorist’. You are making a blasphemous statement about God".


I have neither said nor suggested that 'freedom of speech' be banned, but I purely expressed my 'personal' views by saying that 'I would not suggest..." In other words, I would not interpret as such. Unless there is some complex linguistic analysis, which suggests that meaning, then by no means did I intend to 'suggest' that...!


The second point. Yes, I do not deny that some muslims are being oppressed by their own corrupt regimes. In fact, it does not happen in Islamic countries only, but even in secular ones. That is not the issue. The original topic was 'Jihad', if you still remember. I was indicating that muslims are 'not forbbiden' to fight against those 'Unbelievers' who oppress or unjustly deal with them. What you are saying exists but do you want us to shift to another topic?


The last argument is quite an intelligent one. I get what you mean and some contradiction is sensed. But remember, the media, even though they reveal an iota of the truth, they do not usually present the matter as it is by not balancing the report or influencing it. Yes, I have used the media to prove that the muslims are oppressed, yes they show the films, but not everything they say fairly and accurately represents the subject. For example the famous mark 'Islamic terrorists'. It is quite offensive to associate an innocent man like me, and the 99.99% of the world's Muslims' belief with terrorism. What if a group of churchmen took arms and start to blow up the world? Would they be referred to as 'Christian terrorists'? In both cases, I would answer it is wrong.


The last point I would like to address.


You said, Quote:


"I'll do u a favour and leave this forum. Your not ready to debate with people like me............"


I sense some signs of arrogance here. My only reply is I've come here not for the sake of debating. Anyone can debate, I say Yes, someone else says No, but the point is we educate ourselves. If you came here merely to debate and arrogantly oppose the views of other people with the opinion "Your not ready to debate with people like me", then I'm sorry.


Maybe I should give you an advice that prophet Luq'man gave to his sons. He told them:

"And swell not thy cheek (for pride) at men, nor walk in insolence through the earth; for Allah loveth not any arrogant boaster". (Quran, Luqman, 31:18)


ALLAH KNOWS BEST.
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