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glo
09-15-2006, 04:31 PM
The New Testament describes many of Jesus' miracles, so I thought it worthy to start a thread on this! :)
As far as I understand, Islam also recognises that Jesus performed miracles. Does anybody want to give examples from the Qu'ran?

Perhaps not the best example to give to Muslims, since it involves wine making and drinking, I will start with this one, as it is considered Jesus' first miracle:

On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus' mother was there, and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. When the wine was gone, Jesus' mother said to him, "They have no more wine."

"Dear woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied, "My time has not yet come."

His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."

Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.

Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim.

Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet."

They did so, and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."

This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed in Cana of Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him.
(John 2: 1-11)
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-15-2006, 05:26 PM

The Miracles of Jesus - Qur'anic

Allah the Almighty said:

Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favor to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave.
And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'
"And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger: they said, 'We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to Allah as Muslims'".
Al-Quran, Chapter 5 Al-Maida, Verse 110-111

Jesus's Abilities and The Disciples - Qur'anic

Almighty Allah also revealed:

"And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,
"And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
"'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.
"'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"
When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
"Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger; then write us down among those who bear witness."
And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.
Al-Quran, Chapter 3 Al'i-Imran, Verse 48-54

Allah Sends the Disciples a Feast

Jesus(pbuh) continued calling people to Almighty Allah and laying down for them what might be called "the law of the Spirit." Once when standing on a mountain surrounded by his disciples, Jesus saw that those who believed in him were from among the poor, the wretched, and the downtrodden, and their number was small.

Some of the miracles which Jesus performed had been requested by his disciples, such as their wish for a "holy table" to be sent down from heaven.
Allah the Exalted said:

Behold! the disciples, said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear Allah, if ye have faith."
They said: "We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle."
Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O Allah our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs)."
Allah said: "I will send it down unto you: But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples."
And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden
Al-Quran, Chapter 5 Al-Maida, Verse 112-116

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`Abd al-Azeez
09-15-2006, 05:34 PM
:salamext:

Here is an example:

[سورة المائدة 110 | Surah Al-Mã´edah Ayah 100 (5:110)]
{ إِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ اذْكُرْ نِعْمَتِي عَلَيْكَ وَعَلَى وَالِدَتِكَ إِذْ أَيَّدتُّكَ بِرُوحِ الْقُدُسِ تُكَلِّمُ النَّاسَ فِي الْمَهْدِ وَكَهْلاً وَإِذْ عَلَّمْتُكَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَالتَّوْرَاةَ وَالإِنجِيلَ وَإِذْ تَخْلُقُ مِنَ الطِّينِ كَهَيْئَةِ الطَّيْرِ بِإِذْنِي فَتَنفُخُ فِيهَا فَتَكُونُ طَيْرًا بِإِذْنِي وَتُبْرِىءُ الأَكْمَهَ وَالأَبْرَصَ بِإِذْنِي وَإِذْ تُخْرِجُ الْمَوتَى بِإِذْنِي وَإِذْ كَفَفْتُ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ عَنكَ إِذْ جِئْتَهُمْ بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ فَقَالَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِنْهُمْ إِنْ هَـذَا إِلاَّ سِحْرٌ مُّبِينٌ }

--------

When ALLAH will say, `O Jesus son of Mary, remember MY favour upon thee and upon thy mother; When I strengthened thee with the spirit of holiness so that thou didst speak to the people in the cradle and when of middle age; and when I taught thee the Book and the wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when thou didst fashion a creation out of clay, in the likeness of a bird, by MY command; then thou didst breathe into it a new spirit and it became a soaring being by MY command; and thou didst heal the night-blind and the leprous by MY command; and when thou didst raise the dead by MY command; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from putting thee to death when thou didst come to them with clear Signs; and those who disbelieved from among them said, `This is nothing but clear deception.'

:wasalamex
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InToTheRain
09-15-2006, 05:45 PM
:sl:

Breif Look into the Miracles in AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE, THE TABLE SPREAD) In the Quran:

005.112
When the disciples said: O Jesus, son of Mary! Is thy Lord able to send down for us a table spread with food from heaven? He said: Observe your duty to Allah, if ye are true believers.


005.113
(They said: ) We wish to eat thereof, that we may satisfy our hearts and know that thou hast spoken truth to us, and that thereof we may be witnesses.

005.114
Jesus, son of Mary, said: O Allah, Lord of us! Send down for us a table spread with food from heaven, that it may be a feast for us, for the first of us and for the last of us, and a sign from Thee. Give us sustenance, for Thou art the Best of Sustainers.

005.115
Allah said: Surely I will send it down to you, but whoever shall disbelieve afterwards from among you, surely I will chastise him with a chastisement with which I will not chastise, anyone among the nations.

005.116
And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?


005.117
I spake unto them only that which Thou commandedst me, (saying): Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when Thou tookest me Thou wast the Watcher over them. Thou art Witness over all things.


005.118
"If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise."
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Abdul Fattah
09-15-2006, 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by glo
The New Testament describes many of Jesus' miracles, so I thought it worthy to start a thread on this! :)
As far as I understand, Islam also recognises that Jesus performed miracles. Does anybody want to give examples from the Qu'ran?

Perhaps not the best example to give to Muslims, since it involves wine making and drinking, I will start with this one, as it is considered Jesus' first miracle:
The first miracle was that he wa born the second was that he spoke from the cradle.
As for teh wine. Allah only forbade wine a lot later. Even muslims drank wine before. It is said that when the prohibition of alcohol came, that the streets of medina where flooded of wine that the people had thrown out. So obviously they did drink it before that.
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glo
09-15-2006, 07:38 PM
Jesus heals a paralysed man:

A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. So many gathered that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. Some men came, bringing to him a paralytic, carried by four of them. Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus and, after digging through it, lowered the mat the paralyzed man was lying on. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."

Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, "Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, "Why are you thinking these things? Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins . . . ." He said to the paralytic, "I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home." He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, "We have never seen anything like this!"
(Mark 2:1-12)
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glo
09-15-2006, 07:43 PM
Originally Posted by steve
The first miracle was that he wa born the second was that he spoke from the cradle.
As for teh wine. Allah only forbade wine a lot later. Even muslims drank wine before. It is said that when the prohibition of alcohol came, that the streets of medina where flooded of wine that the people had thrown out. So obviously they did drink it before that.
That's interesting, Steve. Thank you.

I have to agree with you - Jesus' conception was the first miracle! :)
The NT gives no reference of Jesus speaking from the cradle - so that's purely Islamic.

Peace.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-15-2006, 10:07 PM
The NT gives no reference of Jesus speaking from the cradle - so that's purely Islamic.
Huh? Am I reading that right? We do believe that..
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`Abd al-Azeez
09-15-2006, 11:35 PM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Huh? Am I reading that right? We do believe that..
Join the club, I didn't know untill today either, I thought that this was a Christian belief?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-15-2006, 11:37 PM
Omg! u know what im lost LOL!!
so lost omg...pffft. forget it...=\
forget that post..i think i messed up there..oyee
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*Hana*
09-16-2006, 02:17 AM
:sl:

The first miracle according to the Qur'an:

After Mary had given birth to Jesus, people accused her of fornication. Instead of responding to their accusations, she pointed to her newly born child:

“[When] she pointed to him, they asked, ‘How can we talk to a child in the cradle?’ He [Jesus] said: ‘Indeed, I am a servant of Allaah. He gave me the scripture and made me a prophet.’ ” Qur’aan, (19):29-30

Hope this clears any confusion, inshallah.

Wasalam,
Hana
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-16-2006, 02:50 AM
Ok thnx.
so i did confuse myself lol.
I dunno how i misread her post..=\
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*Hana*
09-16-2006, 02:54 AM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Ok thnx.
so i did confuse myself lol.
I dunno how i misread her post..=\
lol sis, it happens after reading a lot...we tend to add or remove words in an attempt to read faster. :giggling:
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Curaezipirid
09-16-2006, 02:55 AM
Alaikumassalam,

Although I am a Muslim, in my life I have been enabled in stronger Faith in Jesus than through education in Mohammed's work. But it is often when I express my Faith that I have been denied by both Christians and Muslims. So I shall tell it again here because I believe I am witness to miracle made by Jesus. Perhaps if there is real reason a person could explain to me why it is that I am taken as a liar and insane for telling these matters.

I am witness to events described in Revelations, and truly every day around me miracles unfold. When people are in my presence they are believing with me since there is no other. But then when they are no longer within the immediate influence of my witness in Jesus they fall. That is why some of my posts are showing that I know fear. Not even my mother whom is a devout Christian will sustain Faith in what I am experiencing, but my children are.

The full events of my life circumstance provide me every moment witness to Miracle in Jesus in the simplicity of the fact that I am living. I know it is of Jesus miracle because when ever I read of Revelations it is telling with literal reference of my immediate experience, and I am rarely reading of any of the Prophesies only because I become so afraid by reading. I am not wanting that by reading of any Prophesy it seems to be realising about me. And so I leave it completely to fate whether or not I happen to come across any text. I listen to Qur'an even in Arabic and have scant portions read in English that I comprehend the sequence of events.

So the Miracle of Jesus I know best is Prophesy.

Some days when very isolated I have wondered if perhaps my mother is believable in telling I am insane, but I find my self then in Kafir.

One day a Dwarf approached me at a train station and we talked. I told him that when I first saw a Dwarf when I was an infant, that I became very excited since it was a manifest evidence that there are occurences in the world that persons around me are expressing disbelief in, but are clearly real. Dwarfs are quite Law abiding by comparison to many persons whom exist within a corruption to the balance between Soul and self and negative and positive phenomena. This particular Dwarf only verified for me that many other Dwarfs also have been Dreaming aligned with my self. I understood that but had not had the empirical evidence until he approached me. I was addressed by him formally on behalf of many as Babylon. So while I am indeed in immeasurable fear as to my immediate daily circumstances; and even that fear increases as I write, since I fear most of all that I might not be believed because The Dajjal causes such; I am also so totally vindicated in the sanity of my Faith that I can not possibly be living one instant without certainty in the miracle of Jesus Prophesy of Revelations.

That portion of His Prophesy transmitted to Saint John the Evangelist is the portion that Mohammed fulfilled. The Dwarf's act in so expressly verifing for me my own life story that I can never deny the fact of; is in large part so as to enable the fact in Mohammed to be recognised. Ameen.

mu'asalam
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Trumble
09-16-2006, 05:45 AM
Originally Posted by glo
The New Testament describes many of Jesus' miracles, so I thought it worthy to start a thread on this! :)
Interesting topic.

Can I assume that most Christians believe that the miracles described in the New Testament took place literally? I'm assuming that muslims must, as the Qur'an describes them.

I come from a different perspective, of course, but I had always assumed them to be metaphors of some kind, or just "tales that grew in the telling", with the exception of healing the sick. That power (if not actually raising the dead!) has been possessed throughout history by exceptionally spirituality accomplished people, a catagory in which I most certainly would place Jesus. Are there any descriptions of Mohammed healing the sick?
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Curaezipirid
09-16-2006, 06:47 AM
Alaikumassalam

Of course! Every event in both Old Testament and New Testament took place literally. That is not only a Muslim belief but the only belief sustainable by any True Believer. Jews, Christians, and Muslims, will all believe that every part of a Scripture as we are taught in Qur'an, or as Jews and Christians have been taught to believe in; actually really happened.

So will all the prophesies. It is intrinsic.

As for healing the sick, I don't know much what Mohammed could or has and has not accomplish, but certainly He is most capable within the regard that most folk hold Jesus as a healer. Yt most persons calling themselves Christian are vastly underestimating Jesus ablity. That is exactly why Mohammed did not perform mass miracles of healing. I am sure that He could have if such were ever necessary. But much of Islamic teaching is rather about avoiding the types of false healing through black magic that many folk have mistakenly assumed was Jesus.

Most modern Churches that claim to be able to heal, are utilising black magic and by using such in Jesus name are only branding themselves firmly as non-believers.

Buddhism includes much teaching about death does it not Trumble? Within those teachings the difference between any healing or bringing breath back into a body while it is passing away, that is based in black magic, and the healing that is based in a real exorcism, is amply evident.

At this time it is factually a part of the Miracles that Jesus made that very many Aboriginal Australians are living; since some Theosophist occultists, and some Buddhists also, have been utilizing black magic to force upon Australian Aboriginal communities all the ills that they are accumulating when they perform exorcisms. That is how I can be certain that their exorcisms are functionally real; but for that one act of black magic that accorded that they flush the ills they extract in exorcism upon my own race. Truly we are surviving in Miracle, and many Aborigines recognise the fact.

Mu'asalam
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Malaikah
09-16-2006, 07:02 AM
:sl:

Yes, Jesus pbuh did speak when he was born, as stated clearly in surat maryam:

And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a date-palm. She said: "Would that I had died before this, and had been forgotten and out of sight!"

Then (the babe 'Iesa (Jesus) or Jibrîl (Gabriel)) cried unto her from below her, saying: "Grieve not: your Lord has provided a water stream under you.

"And shake the trunk of date-palm towards you, it will let fall fresh ripe-dates upon you."

"So eat and drink and be glad. And if you see any human being, say: 'Verily! I have vowed a fast unto the Most Gracious (Allâh) so I shall not speak to any human being this day.'"



Then she brought him (the baby) to her people, carrying him. They said: "O Mary! Indeed you have brought a thing Fariyy (a mighty thing)


“O sister of Aaron! Your father was not a man who used to commit adultery, nor your mother an unchaste woman!”

But she pointed to the babe. They said: “How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?”

He said: “I am indeed a servant of Allah: He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet;

“And He has made me blessed wheresoever I be, and has enjoined on me Salat and Zakat as long as I live;

“(He) has made me dutiful to my mother, and not arrogant or unblest;

“So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)”


Surat Maryam- [19: 23-33]
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Curaezipirid
09-16-2006, 07:02 AM
Alaikumassalam

I am not certain what happened what I made that last post that is number 16 in the thread; because I pressed the "post quick reply" button twice, and got a message about not to spam, that has redirected me back into this thread. But it seems not to have spammed. However, this is an apology just in case. (this case?)

mu'asalam
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glo
09-16-2006, 09:40 AM
Hi Tayyaba, cheese and others

Yes, I know that the Qu'ran mentions that jesus spoke from the cradle.
All I was saying, is that this is not mentioned anywhere in the Gospels.

atthew described many of Jesus' miracles ... here are a couple more...

Jesus heals a man with leprosy:
When he came down from the mountainside, large crowds followed him. A man with leprosy came and knelt before him and said, "Lord, if you are willing, you can make me clean."

Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately he was cured of his leprosy. Then Jesus said to him, "See that you don't tell anyone. But go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift Moses commanded, as a testimony to them."
(Matthew 8: 1-4)
Jesus calms the storm
Then he got into the boat and his disciples followed him. Without warning, a furious storm came up on the lake, so that the waves swept over the boat. But Jesus was sleeping. The disciples went and woke him, saying, "Lord, save us! We're going to drown!"

He replied, "You of little faith, why are you so afraid?" Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm.

The men were amazed and asked, "What kind of man is this? Even the winds and the waves obey him!"
(Matthew 8:23-27)
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Trumble
09-16-2006, 10:34 AM
Originally Posted by Curaezipirid
Buddhism includes much teaching about death does it not Trumble? Within those teachings the difference between any healing or bringing breath back into a body while it is passing away, that is based in black magic, and the healing that is based in a real exorcism, is amply evident.
Buddhism includes teachings about death, certainly, but all those I am aware of do so in the context of death as being something not to fear, as part of the natural order of things. All things are born, inevitably decay, and inevitably die.

I am not aware of anything that talks of healing in the sense we have been talking about here, let alone "bringing breath back into a body", although I confess I am not familiar with the tantric works perhaps most likely to include such material. Can you specify which "teachings" you are referring to?
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glo
09-17-2006, 06:52 PM
One of Jesus' best known miracles:

Jesus feeds the Five Thousand
When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.

As evening approached, the disciples came to him and said, "This is a remote place, and it's already getting late. Send the crowds away, so they can go to the villages and buy themselves some food."

Jesus replied, "They do not need to go away. You give them something to eat."

"We have here only five loaves of bread and two fish," they answered.

"Bring them here to me," he said. And he directed the people to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the people. They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. The number of those who ate was about five thousand men, besides women and children.

(Matthew 14: 13-21)
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Curaezipirid
09-18-2006, 03:38 AM
Originally Posted by Trumble
Buddhism includes teachings about death, certainly, but all those I am aware of do so in the context of death as being something not to fear, as part of the natural order of things. All things are born, inevitably decay, and inevitably die.

I am not aware of anything that talks of healing in the sense we have been talking about here, let alone "bringing breath back into a body", although I confess I am not familiar with the tantric works perhaps most likely to include such material. Can you specify which "teachings" you are referring to?
In the introduction to the book called the Tibetean book of Living and Dying by one of the Rinpoche, is it Sygolal his name, something like that. I also heard a talk by a person who told that within that same teaching is a story about a master of Buddist practise guiding another person through their death, in which the dying person got one bit wrong in relation to elements and was momentarily brought back to life and re-instructed as to the need to be correct for hereafter. But I am not entirely certain that the same book is the source of that part of what I have learned is taught within mainstream Buddhism.

My objection to these teachings as I have heard them, and read them; is that they have no account for/of Kafir; and are therefore extremely dangerous. Basically I firmly believe that while very many Buddhist teachings that are around are good at re-inforcing that we need not dwell in past suffering; they are wrong to teach that death is not to be feared.

Of course death is a matter which we must learn to gently accept, yet if we are not fearful of death, what will motivate us to avoid the paucity of behaviour of those who will not be saved?

Certainly even Jesus feared his experience upon the cross: why else was it that He called "Father why have you forsaken me?". He teaches us by the miracle of His resurrection that in gentle acceptance of that which we most of all fear are we saved.

mu'asalam
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snakelegs
09-18-2006, 03:46 AM
just curious - are miracles really relevant in order to "prove" the validity of a religion? (which of course, is a subject that cannot be proven).
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glo
09-18-2006, 05:36 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
just curious - are miracles really relevant in order to "prove" the validity of a religion? (which of course, is a subject that cannot be proven).
I've never thought about it like that ...
you mean like "my religion is better than yours, because 'our guy' performed more or better miracles?" :giggling:

I hope that's not the case. :rollseyes
As you say, it cannot be proven anyway ...

In relation to this thread, most of Jesus' miracles demonstrate the love and compassion he had for those in need around him. That's why I wanted to make this thread. :)

Anyway, the Gospel describes Jesus performing many miracles ... so this could be a long thread!! So sit back and hold on tight ... it's gonna be a looooong ride ... ;D

Peace.
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Malaikah
09-18-2006, 05:49 AM
Hi Glo,

I'm just thinking, in Islam we dont have as many miracles performed by God through Jesus as Christianity does (probably because in Jesus in christianity is much greater than that in Islam).

So maybe we could also include miracles by the other prophets in Islam in this thread? Because, in Islam, God does miracles, the prophets just mediate them sometimes.

Just an idea, i understand if you would rather just keep it about Jesus though.

:)
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glo
09-18-2006, 05:56 AM
Originally Posted by cheese
Hi Glo,

I'm just thinking, in Islam we dont have as many miracles performed by God through Jesus as Christianity does (probably because in Jesus in christianity is much greater than that in Islam).

So maybe we could also include miracles by the other prophets in Islam in this thread? Because, in Islam, God does miracles, the prophets just mediate them sometimes.

Just an idea, i understand if you would rather just keep it about Jesus though.

:)
I don't mind, cheese.
After all our religions 'share' most prophets. And certainly Moses performed many miracles with God's will.
But there is also a thread on the miracles of Muhammed - so just decide which thread would be the better choice ...

Peace :)
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Malaikah
09-18-2006, 06:02 AM
I think this thread is better because, like you said, our religions do 'share' prophets.

But Glo i dont want to hijak your thread or anything, i mean its totally up to you, if you dont like the idea just say so :X
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lolwatever
09-18-2006, 06:08 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
just curious - are miracles really relevant in order to "prove" the validity of a religion? (which of course, is a subject that cannot be proven).
miracles by definition are something that just cant be done... just to show us that the ones who came with the message isnt coming up with it from his own mind, because he's been given abilities that simply can't be done by any other human being in the same manner.

so yeh... Allah does send miracles with each prophet to serve as an 'absolute' proof to the people that its not some man made message the messenger is coming with.

as for Jesus, i think Muslims love him more than the Christians... Muslims just adore him even though he was only around for a short while. Michael heart even said that for christians... Paul has a greater influence on them than does Jesus (hence why he ranked paul higher than jesus in teh 100 greatest book of his)

salamz
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Curaezipirid
09-18-2006, 06:54 AM
Alaikumassalam,

It is a good question about whether a Religion needs Miracles to prove it.

The harsh reality is just that there are so many persons fallen into believing in black magic that there needed to be presented to such persons a thorough certainty that Allah's way has more power.

A miracle is by nature the work of any finer density material that is able to manifest in the coaser density material. Black magic is a mechanism that is similar but because it can be proven to be ultimately non-live sustaining, it can also be disproven. Whereas a true miracle is of a further higher density of matter in that which supports its existance: and is at all times life sustaining. The density at which matter was wrongly worked to form the few incidents of black magic from which all others are resultant, is the density at which only the Jinn or an Arch Angel can work. The Jinn are fallen to Earth so as to account all black magic to their/our own responsiblity so as that no Human, or even shaytan, ever need to accept the full derth of fault that such is. Thereby it is that even shaytan must fear the Jinn; whom are accounted readily through King Solomon. But that account need be remade within the manifestation of The Dajjal, since he it is who thwarted King Solomon's labour. Thereby it is needful that in this modern age a few more miracles can be called upon to sustain Human belief. In Brisbane there are many persons whom have almost no money whom are witness to such miracles, and they are orienting their minds almost instantly to Islam.

Miracles are very important. wasalam
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glo
09-18-2006, 02:25 PM
Jesus heals a man with a withered hand.

Another time he went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, "Stand up in front of everyone."

Then Jesus asked them, "Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?" But they remained silent.

He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.

(Mark 3: 1-6)
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Curaezipirid
09-19-2006, 07:26 AM
Alaikumassalam,

I like that miracle in which Jesus cured a blind man.
When he was asked how it could be he explained that the man was blind only so that another could see.

Wasalam
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glo
09-20-2006, 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by Curaezipirid
Alaikumassalam,

I like that miracle in which Jesus cured a blind man.
When he was asked how it could be he explained that the man was blind only so that another could see.

Wasalam
There are several different accounts of Jesus restoring the sight of blind people in the New Testament:
They came to Bethsaida, and some people brought a blind man and begged Jesus to touch him. He took the blind man by the hand and led him outside the village. When he had spit on the man's eyes and put his hands on him, Jesus asked, "Do you see anything?"

He looked up and said, "I see people; they look like trees walking around."

Once more Jesus put his hands on the man's eyes. Then his eyes were opened, his sight was restored, and he saw everything clearly. Jesus sent him home, saying, "Don't go into the village."

(Mark 8:22-26)
As Jesus and his disciples were leaving Jericho, a large crowd followed him. Two blind men were sitting by the roadside, and when they heard that Jesus was going by, they shouted, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"

The crowd rebuked them and told them to be quiet, but they shouted all the louder, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"

Jesus stopped and called them. "What do you want me to do for you?" he asked.

"Lord," they answered, "we want our sight."

esus had compassion on them and touched their eyes. Immediately they received their sight and followed him.

(Matthew 20:29-34)
I guess you are referring to this one, although accourding to John Jesus did not say that "the man was blind only so that another could see."
As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

Having said this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man's eyes. "Go," he told him, "wash in the Pool of Siloam" (this word means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.

(John 9:1-7)
Peace :)
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Curaezipirid
09-22-2006, 05:56 AM
Alaikumassalam

you picked the right one

there surely are other translations/interpretations in which it states that he had been blind so that another man could see

but is it not that that meaning is inimical with that he happened to be blind so that the work of God may be displayed in his life

Either way: he is enabled to be cured because the blindness is not his sin nor his parents sin; so we must assume it is caused by the sin of a third party whom he was enabling to see, and whom perhaps lost their sight to pay for Jesus miracle; also he was blind so as that men could "see" the work of God in his life

The seeing the work of God is in the fact that Jesus made some effort to describe the working of the miracle in that instance. He described that yes he had considered whether the sin that caused the blindness was of either the blind man or his parents; so we can surmise that such knowledge is an essential fact to the realisation of a miracle cure.

From memory the man had been blind since birth, or at least very young, so it had been a very strong healing.

Wasalam
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glo
09-22-2006, 11:58 AM
Originally Posted by Curaezipirid
Alaikumassalam

there surely are other translations/interpretations in which it states that he had been blind so that another man could see

but is it not that that meaning is inimical with that he happened to be blind so that the work of God may be displayed in his life
I have done a fairly extensive search and cannot find any translation, which states that the man was blind so that another man could see.
All refer to him being born blind, so God's power could be demonstrated/manifested/shown to others.

Either way: he is enabled to be cured because the blindness is not his sin nor his parents sin; so we must assume it is caused by the sin of a third party whom he was enabling to see, and whom perhaps lost their sight to pay for Jesus miracle; also he was blind so as that men could "see" the work of God in his life

The seeing the work of God is in the fact that Jesus made some effort to describe the working of the miracle in that instance. He described that yes he had considered whether the sin that caused the blindness was of either the blind man or his parents; so we can surmise that such knowledge is an essential fact to the realisation of a miracle cure.
I don't think that at all.
Quite the opposite, Jesus states that the blindness is not the result of anybody's sin. What makes you assume that it has to do with the sin of a third person? :?
Do you think somebody else lost his sight at the very same moment, so this bling man could be healed??? Like there is one pair of working eyes available, and Jesus has to take it from one in order to give it to another??? :uuh:

Jesus does not consider whether the blindness has been caused by anybody's sin - he clearly states that it hasn't!
Neither is such knowledge inportant in the performing of the miracle.
Jesus just heals the man, because that's what he came for: to show compassion, to be there for the needy, to bring God's glory to the people!
"While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."
From memory the man had been blind since birth, or at least very young, so it had been a very strong healing.
I agree. It's an amazing miracle :)

Peace.
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Curaezipirid
09-24-2006, 04:54 PM
Alaikum assalam,

I am lead to believe that there is a third party whose sin caused the blindness because it is said that he is blind so that another man can see. I will try to find the Biblical reference, but I suspect that it is within those books which are usually available only to Clergy because I remember hearing a long sermon upon this exact miracle. It was in the Anglican Cathedral in Brisbane, and they have also there an openly accessible Catholic book, that is a gift from the Catholic diocese of Brisbane, and accessible to the public. The sermon should be available over the internet, and I believe it was made during lent 2005. The Dean posts all his sermons, but it could have been one of the Bishop's. I will seek to investigate but I don't like my chances since most recently when I attended that Cathedral was Sunday 17th December 2005, and the black man whom was accompanying me was so revolted with the way in which the clergy were treating me as a Muslim and of Aboriginal ancestry, that he made a very public point of preventing me from staying for the service. He was then himself only two days having professed Faith as a Muslim, and had been experiencing rather extreme stigmata thereafter whenever he was not protecting me. The stigmata concurred with his perception of need to prevent me from being any further wrongfully accused by the clergy there and so I have not attended that Cathedral since. In fact I can not even enter the building without there being an exaserbation in the situation because of a legal case in which one staff member at the Cathedral has witnessed my major affidavit, but other staff members are disbelieving.

However that is not the matter at hand and I shall post when I can validate my statments.

wasalam
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glo
09-24-2006, 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by Curaezipirid
Alaikum assalam,

I am lead to believe that there is a third party whose sin caused the blindness because it is said that he is blind so that another man can see. I will try to find the Biblical reference, but I suspect that it is within those books which are usually available only to Clergy because I remember hearing a long sermon upon this exact miracle.
That would be very interesting. Thank you. :)

Good luck with the search
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Curaezipirid
09-27-2006, 04:00 PM
The Dean's Sermons can be easily found through looking up St John's Cathedral Brisbane although the scoundrel has altered them considerably from what he speaks in the pulpit: but I guess that is only to be expected since reading is a different form of communication from listening. However looking up the talks has envigoated memory that it is more likely to be one of the Bishop's sermons which are not posted publically. I am now engaged mentally in how to access the proof of what I heard. But I suspect that some of the local Christian bookshops could prove more fruitful.

This is the sad fact. One of the main Christian bookshops in the City is downstairs in a row with a whole bunch of sex toy shops, and it sells the tools of the trade for ministry of holy communion. Because of the position of the shop and the everyday availablity of such things, they manifest remarkably like the pipes for smoking in the nearby shops selling paraphenalia of drug using. However, the selection of books could well provide what I am now seeking.

wasalam
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glo
09-27-2006, 04:09 PM
Originally Posted by Curaezipirid
This is the sad fact. One of the main Christian bookshops in the City is downstairs in a row with a whole bunch of sex toy shops, and it sells the tools of the trade for ministry of holy communion. Because of the position of the shop and the everyday availablity of such things, they manifest remarkably like the pipes for smoking in the nearby shops selling paraphenalia of drug using. However, the selection of books could well provide what I am now seeking.

wasalam
Well, Jesus told us to go and live amongst sinners and non-believers ... :)
Who knows who might stumble through that Christian bookshop's door by accident, and get saved as a result! :D

Peace.
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Curaezipirid
09-27-2006, 06:46 PM
Good point glo!

I believe that the four Madhab of Islam are four of the seven churches of Revelations; another is those Muslims whom more directly follow Mohammed only; the other two are for those of us whom are much more able to integrate among the community of non-believers without loosing Faith. Truly it is a far harder task to sustain real Christian Faith within modern Christian settings than it is to sustain Islam within Muslim settings. I am of that Church among Ephesus, but it is not yet so formed as others, but the reality is that there may be many more folk who believe in Qur'an living outside of Muslim settings that many of us recognise. These are who I identify most strongly with. Truly I believe that Islam is one of the Miracles of Jesus; and that Mohammed began the fulfillment of the Prophesies given to Saint John the Evangelist by Jesus in Revelations. Perhaps there are many whom believe like I? Many whom are living in countries which long were Muslim, and are not gone back towards Christian Churches because Christian Churches were giving away more food and blankets to them when in need. Not because Muslims could not or would not, but because Muslims were being prevented by Christians who projected upon Islam that Muslims are not believers.

So that is mainly a bit irrelevent to the Miracles of Jesus; except of course that I believe all Islam is.

wasalam
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Curaezipirid
10-02-2006, 11:37 PM
I came back to this thread to make a point about the immense importance of miracles as a means of instilling permanent belief.

There is a discussion in a thread called: "is science an actual religion and who for?" in which the real need for us to bear witness to one instance of miracle is being shown.

I believe that it is a very important fact that we are only able to bear what each our previous experience has prepared us for. So for a monk it will necessarily be a larger degree of sorrow than for an ordinary person. Because presumably the monk is a monk because he has been witness to a miracle of some sort. Even if that miracle is only that in childhood he was feed by other monks.

The significance of this to Jesus is that His teaching provides so very very many persons with cause to believe that miracle is possible, even now today. This is becasue he laid traces of specific pattern within the brain chemistry of enough persons that all such persons are still today able to effect the entire population and help everybody sustain Faith. Ever actual real Mujahideen has such an experience in which the mind is ineradicably altered to enable belief. It is a miracle of Jesus that such is an ongoing function of both Christian and Muslim Faith. If He had not made this miracle the Earths population surely could not be in such a relatively Peace sustaining frame of mind in general.

wasalam
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