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glo
09-17-2006, 08:52 PM
I was having this discussion with my husband:

Sometimes you hear of people who leave their faith (be it Christianity, Islam or anything else), come to the conclusion that God is not real and become atheists.


I cannot imagne that anybody, having once believed in God, can suddenly not believe in him any more! :rollseyes
I can imagine that people may get angry with God, or disillusioned with other believers - but not that they can genuinely not believe in his existence any more.


My husband disagrees, and says he has read many testamonies of people who did just that - stopped believing that God was real!

What do you think?
Is it possible?
Do you know people who have done this?


Peace.
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snakelegs
09-17-2006, 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by glo
I was having this discussion with my husband:

Sometimes you hear of people who leave their faith (be it Christianity, Islam or anything else), come to the conclusion that God is not real and become atheists.


I cannot imagne that anybody, having once believed in God, can suddenly not believe in him any more! :rollseyes
I can imagine that people may get angry with God, or disillusioned with other believers - but not that they can genuinely not believe in his existence any more.


My husband disagrees, and says he has read many testamonies of people who did just that - stopped believing that God was real!

What do you think?
Is it possible?
Do you know people who have done this?


Peace.
i have known jews who became atheists as a result of the holocaust.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
09-17-2006, 08:54 PM
its very real, i actually had many discussions with lots of non-muslims who called themselves christians etc, and after my mass questioning they anounced that they just dont believe in God... sis its shoking but obviously they never to begin wiv truelly believd in God. It was all just a "label"

sry if thats too brief, but i hope u understnd wat im syin, Allah guides whom he wills..

:peace:
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Hijrah
09-17-2006, 08:56 PM
I can relate to what Mazed said, I know a lot of people like that.

As far as Islam goes, just look at Ali Sina, he is an atheist who left Islam and now all he does is make retarded attempts of slandering Islam on where? THE INTERNET!
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Abdul Fattah
09-17-2006, 08:57 PM
Well I don't think a person who truly believes can loose it's faith. Perhaps some people thought that they believed while they didn't really believe, and then finally gave up on fooling themselves and became atheistic.
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glo
09-17-2006, 08:58 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i have known jews who became atheists as a result of the holocaust.
I can understand that. :cry:

But the question remains, were they angry with God for having allowed it to take place; or did they come to believe that God couldn't possible exist ... because if he did, he would have prevented it? :?
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glo
09-17-2006, 09:02 PM
Originally Posted by Mazed
its very real, i actually had many discussions with lots of non-muslims who called themselves christians etc, and after my mass questioning they anounced that they just dont believe in God... sis its shoking but obviously they never to begin wiv truelly believd in God. It was all just a "label"

sry if thats too brief, but i hope u understnd wat im syin, Allah guides whom he wills..

:peace:
I understand that, too.
I think it can happen when you grow up in a 'religious environment' - like, you do and say all the 'right' stuff, but you don't really believe it.

I grew up in a Christian home, and I was like that for a long time. It wasn't really until I was an adult that I 'found' God and learned to love and serve him.

So are you saying, people who turn away from their faith and become atheists cannot have been 'true' believers in the first place?

peace.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
09-17-2006, 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by glo
So are you saying, people who turn away from their faith and become atheists cannot have been 'true' believers in the first place?

peace.
yes sis, duz that sound unfair at all? hmm... i gess.. i dunno, but in all honesty once u've accepted that God is there wateva he decree's u wud jus accept so i dont undastand what it could be which takes people away from God... reverting i understand, converting i understand but to completely deny.. that i dont get !
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glo
09-17-2006, 09:06 PM
Originally Posted by Hijrah
I can relate to what Mazed said, I know a lot of people like that.

As far as Islam goes, just look at Ali Sina, he is an atheist who left Islam and now all he does is make retarded attempts of slandering Islam on where? THE INTERNET!
I don't know this guy, but I often feel that when people leave their faith, they do so for a reason. Often they have been hurt or feel betrayed, either by God or by fellow believers, or perhaps by the authorities of their religion.
That hurt and anger is then released - usually by slandering the religion in question!
Not a nice thing to do, but a human reaction to hurt and pain - so perhaps it's understandable ... :?

Peace
Reply

glo
09-17-2006, 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by Mazed
yes sis, duz that sound unfair at all? hmm... i gess.. i dunno, but in all honesty once u've accepted that God is there wateva he decree's u wud jus accept so i dont undastand what it could be which takes people away from God... reverting i understand, converting i understand but to completely deny.. that i dont get !
Yes, that's how I feel.
(Although I am sorely tempted to translate your post into 'proper' English! ;D ... off topic)
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-17-2006, 09:11 PM
Originally Posted by glo
Yes, that's how I feel.
(Although I am sorely tempted to translate your post into 'proper' English! ;D ... off topic)
lol sorry, i'll try to type in proper english inshaAllah.

:peace:
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- Qatada -
09-17-2006, 09:21 PM
On my opinion, i think it's the fact that when a person starts to indulge in sin - then he/she keeps turning away from Allaah, and the deeper the person falls, the harder it is to escape.

This is why when a person has deeply fallen into the hole - they feel that they need to get out somehow, which means that they turn to Allaah.


Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light... (Qur'an 2:257)


However, when the person totally rejects Allaah and enjoy the sins that he/she may indulge in - they keep straying in that darkness.. they don't know where they are, but they feel that they are superior to others, they feel that they don't need to submit to anyone, and their pride take's over them. A really good example of this is satan.



...Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (For ever). (Qur'an 2:257)



Allaah Almighty knows best.



PS: Good thread.


Peace.
Reply

Abdul Fattah
09-17-2006, 09:31 PM
Originally Posted by glo
I don't know this guy, but I often feel that when people leave their faith, they do so for a reason. Often they have been hurt or feel betrayed, either by God or by fellow believers, or perhaps by the authorities of their religion.
That hurt and anger is then released - usually by slandering the religion in question!
Not a nice thing to do, but a human reaction to hurt and pain - so perhaps it's understandable ... :?

Peace
well, it's not that black or white.
In the end every single action a person does is for a reason. If you break open psychology books, and make a profound study, eventually you can seemingly explain the worst act of dictators and psychopaths, afterall they are just following the path that ies in front of them, well not quite.
Just because someone finds a motive for soem course of action, doesn't make it justified! It might explain us why this person does this and make it understandable, but it doesn't make a wrongfull act less wrong. Well I know all you only "understandable" and not "justified", but I thought it might be interesting to add this :)
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-17-2006, 09:34 PM
i dunno but i think feeling betrayed by God is actually you betraying God after all his favours on you... its like sayin "the decree of God on me isnt good enuff even tho i accepted before that God is all just"

so my point is that kinda scenario just aint happening. But wat fi-sab said was on the spot... sinning makes a person dulge to deep into darkness that they can actually forget God :eek:
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snakelegs
09-17-2006, 09:40 PM
Originally Posted by glo
I can understand that. :cry:

But the question remains, were they angry with God for having allowed it to take place; or did they come to believe that God couldn't possible exist ... because if he did, he would have prevented it? :?
they had gone beyond being angry with god and came to believe that god couldn't possibly exist, if he allowed such things to happen. before the holocaust they had been orthodox jews.
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-17-2006, 09:42 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
they had gone beyond being angry with god and came to believe that god couldn't possibly exist, if he allowed such things to happen. before the holocaust they had been orthodox jews.
how can u be angry wiv God once you've firmly believed and understood him? :?
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Trumble
09-17-2006, 09:43 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i have known jews who became atheists as a result of the holocaust.
Quite understandable, I think. For those who lived through that it must have been very hard to retain the idea of a benevolent, omniscient, omnipotent God. At the risk of waking Ansar up, that's the sort of event that just about clinches the "problem of evil" debate for me. No amount of philosophical argument or theological explanation can provide a convincing explanation of why such a God would let such a thing happen.

As to the first post, people stop believing in God because they no longer need the idea of a God to provide an explanation of why things happen in their lives.
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- Qatada -
09-17-2006, 09:44 PM
It's natural, because we've been created in a natural state where we know that Allaah is watching over us. But when a person break's that barrier, and take's that lightly - they keep forcing themselves to turn away from Allaah so they can commit that sin.

Gradually, due to them turning away from Allaah and because of their sins, they actually forget that Allaah is watching over him/her, which leads to them forgetting Allaah Almighty totally, so Allaah makes them forget themselves.


The Evil One has got the better of them: so he has made them lose the remembrance of Allah. They are the Party of the Evil One. Truly, it is the Party of the Evil One that will perish! (Qur'an 58:19)


And be ye not like those who forgot Allah; and He made them forget their own souls! Such are the rebellious transgressors! (Qur'an 59:19)



..and Allaah Almighty knows best.
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-17-2006, 09:45 PM
they keep forcing themselves to turn away from Allaah so they can commit that sin.
that was brilliant, i hope people take heed inshaAllah, if i could i wud giv u 10 reps for that !!

:salamext:
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Zone Maker
09-17-2006, 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by Hijrah
I can relate to what Mazed said, I know a lot of people like that.

As far as Islam goes, just look at Ali Sina, he is an atheist who left Islam and now all he does is make retarded attempts of slandering Islam on where? THE INTERNET!
:sl:
Well in the end hell does need kafirs as its fuel;) .
:w:
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snakelegs
09-17-2006, 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by Mazed
how can u be angry wiv God once you've firmly believed and understood him? :?
i can not speak for these people. i guess they could not reconcile god permiting such horrors done to his people.
i am not an atheist, but i find this very understandable.
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snakelegs
09-17-2006, 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
Quite understandable, I think. For those who lived through that it must have been very hard to retain the idea of a benevolent, omniscient, omnipotent God. At the risk of waking Ansar up, that's the sort of event that just about clinches the "problem of evil" debate for me. No amount of philosophical argument or theological explanation can provide a convincing explanation of why such a God would let such a thing happen.

As to the first post, people stop believing in God because they no longer need the idea of a God to provide an explanation of why things happen in their lives.
;D ;D ;D :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: "at the risk of waking ansar up".
for some reason, i am perfectly comfortable with the concept that there are things that are just not knowable.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-17-2006, 10:07 PM
If God didn't love his people or didnt exist, there would be more chaos, I think.
I believe God has prevented a lot of things from happening, but at the same time people have the will to make their own choices. Each having its own consequences Its hard to explain really.
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- Qatada -
09-17-2006, 10:21 PM
Verily, We have created man in toil.

Thinks he that none can overcome him?

He says (boastfully): "I have wasted wealth in abundance!"

Thinks he that none sees him?


(Qur'an 90: 1-7)


Allaah has created man in toil and trouble because if this life was all perfect - what's the actual reason for paradise?


If man had all he want's in this world, he would never turn to a higher authority for help. This is obvious because most of the oppressors are the people who have status within this world.

Now who follows a faith more, the people with power, or the poor and humble people? It's the humble people - they feel that they should turn to someone. Someone who will help them, and that is Allaah Almighty (God.)



The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said "I looked at Paradise and found poor people forming the majority of its inhabitants;" [Bukhari]




This life is surrounded by trials, and these trials may bring a person closer to Allaah because man realises that he/she is created weak. However - it can go to the opposite extreme too, where a person can give up totally on God and say that God isn't there to help.

But when man turns away, then he/she has no authority to turn to, which makes him/her even more helpless. When man feels sad that someone they were close to died, didn't they already know that death would catch up with them within their life?



This is why islam explains thoroughly what will happen to a person in the afterlife, aswell as describing this world so that the person may reflect on how this world is related to the afterlife.


The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) asked, 'Do you know who the wise person is? The wise person is someone who is constantly remembering death and preparing for it.'



Allaah Almighty knows best.



Peace.
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therebbe
09-17-2006, 11:29 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i have known jews who became atheists as a result of the holocaust.
And yet many more became even more pious because they believe the Jews would have been completly destroyed if it was not for G-d's intervention, like my parents for example.
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InToTheRain
09-17-2006, 11:32 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i can not speak for these people. i guess they could not reconcile god permiting such horrors done to his people.
i am not an atheist, but i find this very understandable.
I understand but Human beings can only reach virtues by choosing with their free will not to pursue vices. If a computer is programmed to always tell the truth we wouldn't call it virtuous. To appreciate light there must be darkness. To appreciate life there must be death. We cannot learn unless we make some mistakes.

Indeed God does have absolute knowledge of all things and has power over all things and He does love human beings. The bad in the world should be seen, not as inherently bad but rather as lessons for humanity from which it must learn and through which we appreciate the value of good things as and when we earn them through our efforts.


Adam's progeny declared: "Our Lord, we bear witness that You are our Lord; we have no other
Lord but Allah. Allah raised their father Adam, and he looked at them and saw those of them who
were rich and those who were poor, and those who had good forms and those who did not. Adam
said: "O Allah! I wish You to make Your servants equal." Allah replied "I love being thanked."
Adam saw among the prophets like lamps among his progeny.
- (stories of the prohets, Ibn Kathir)


May Allah(SWT) guide us all.

Peace.
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جوري
09-18-2006, 12:29 AM
My personal feeling on the matter is.... when things go wrong we blame it on God and when they go right and they do most everyday... we don't even pay attention to it at all....and that is truly puzzling to me.... someone on the forum had written before that is God existed he would make himself known to me.... it is a strange sentiment really... I think of all the sophistication of creation which can't be summed up in adequate words and how some reduce not just creation but the creator by more vulgar idelogy and cheap words? God doesn't need our validation or acknowledgment in fact it is quite the converse.... to be honest I have heard people cursing God (astghforallah) I have heard people question him when things go awry but never seen any turn ahteists........ me personally even the days when I wasn't practising like any atheist... deep down inside I always knew there is God....I also believe there is a balance and an order to things... and that nothing escapes unaccounted for even if we don't bare witness to it...
I have seen things which by my standards I think are miraculous I am sure someone can find a law of physics to explain them or explain it in a very sane way? but I think "For the skeptic, no amount of proof will be enough, and for the believer, no amount of proof is necessary" really sums it up nicely for me....
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akulion
09-18-2006, 12:35 AM
Best to my belief , knowledge and understanding - from an Islamic prespective it is not possible.

The Prophet(s) said, "He who has tasted the sweetness of faith can never leave it"

So people who truly had faith, cannot stop believeing in God - but at the same time they may become rebellious and be hypocrites or non practicing in their faith

- but as for people who never believed and always had doubts in their hearts - they are the ones who leave.

that is my opinion base on the saying of the Prophet(s).
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-18-2006, 12:42 AM
Sorry i messed up here..didnt know it got posted =\
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-18-2006, 12:43 AM
Thats right. If you truly believed you wouldnt abandon ur beliefs for the sake of anything. You must have been a hyprocrite and show to others u believed but really didnt.
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جوري
09-18-2006, 12:55 AM
Originally Posted by Trumble
Quite understandable, I think. For those who lived through that it must have been very hard to retain the idea of a benevolent, omniscient, omnipotent God. At the risk of waking Ansar up, that's the sort of event that just about clinches the "problem of evil" debate for me. No amount of philosophical argument or theological explanation can provide a convincing explanation of why such a God would let such a thing happen.

As to the first post, people stop believing in God because they no longer need the idea of a God to provide an explanation of why things happen in their lives.
I don't know much about Buddhism but many of my Hindu friends believe that any suffering they receive is based on some past life time event... what are your thoughts on that do you share a similar understanding?

I find the analogy that if there were a God he shouldn't/wouldn't allow suffering to happen a little strange.... why do we believe he is the cause of our suffering?... why do we not blame it on the people who cause the suffering? How dare we even speak so much of free will if God were orchestrating our every move?... what man does to another is an independent act from God...even though he is most knowing, most wise... his most beloved messengers suffered greatly none were spared none that I know of....if anyone he should have saved you'd think it would be them first...

trials and tribulations is man's plight otherwise what would be the point of this life? It seems that we would be living in some sort of utopia an elysian field... It would be sad truly sad if being good or being evil meant nothing... if all you did unto others meant nothing... I know not every horrible person is brought into justice... but I believe/know that there is justice even if I am not to witness it in my lifetime or in this world all together.... it is the law of the universe.....
peace
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snakelegs
09-18-2006, 01:24 AM
Originally Posted by therebbe
And yet many more became even more pious because they believe the Jews would have been completly destroyed if it was not for G-d's intervention, like my parents for example.
yes, i've read that too. i'm just more likely to run in to the atheists than the orthodox. but there are certainly accounts of miraculous survival also.
i can not imagine how i would've dealt with the holocaust theologically - i would've had to conclude (as i do with many things) that it was unknowable - why god allowed this to happen. the alternative would be to go insane.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-18-2006, 01:31 AM
How do u know how much God might be preventing and how worse this world would be than it already is. Imagine the world being perfect and God not letting any evil happen. You would not have so many charitable organizations or people coming forward to help each other. You wouldn't have people building compassion for each other or comfort others in time of need. This life is a test for the humankind. God has given the choice and how go about making them. Each action will have a consequence, good or bad. The holocaust, for example, is something u wouldnt want ever to happen again and u feel remorse for the lost lives. How would u have that if it never happened. Not saying it should have and the people responsible will definitely be accountable. No doubt about that. God has given us guidelines for these things and how to do each act. Guidelines that we should help one another. God has already given us this sense of compassion and us being able to fulfill it through His guidelines. Thats how i see it.
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glo
09-18-2006, 05:51 AM
Huh, this thread has grown in my sleep! :giggling:
Thank you for your very interesting thoughts.

A couple of things spring to mind.

I think those of us who feel our faith in God is unfallible, may be a little naive. A think any of us would have our breaking point, when we would question God severely!
(Witnessing and experiencing the horrors of the holocaust, or watching your family and livelihood being washed away by a tsunami, or just being worn down by the daily grind - those are just a few things)

If my family was killed, or I lost the use of my arms and legs, or civil war broke out in my country ... would I really continue to joyfully follow God, praise him for all his blessings and continue to serve him?
Here and now, sitting behind my computer, in a relatively peaceful community, with my family still safely in bed and with the full use of my limbs, I would answer a convincing yes!
But if the day came, would I still be so sure???

Let's not kid ourselves ... we all have times when we question and doubt God ... or is there aybody here who can honestly say he doesn't??

But therebbe makes a very good point!
These times of trial and doubt can prompt us to choose one of two ways ... either away from God, or closer to him!

May you all walk with God, always. :)
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-18-2006, 09:04 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i can not speak for these people. i guess they could not reconcile god permiting such horrors done to his people.
i am not an atheist, but i find this very understandable.
ye but its men who commit the horrors.... and its on the day of judgement when full recompense will be paid...
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-18-2006, 09:05 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
;D ;D ;D :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: "at the risk of waking ansar up".
for some reason, i am perfectly comfortable with the concept that there are things that are just not knowable.
so am i, why stress ova wats not necessary lol, live for today but work for tomorrow (tomorrow bein the hereafter :D)
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-18-2006, 09:18 AM
Originally Posted by akulion
Best to my belief , knowledge and understanding - from an Islamic prespective it is not possible.

The Prophet(s) said, "He who has tasted the sweetness of faith can never leave it"
mashAllah, if that is a sahih hadith that makes it part faith to believe that anyone who is truelly accepted Allah swt and his messenger cant turn back :)

:salamext:
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glo
09-18-2006, 01:27 PM
Originally Posted by therebbe
And yet many more became even more pious because they believe the Jews would have been completly destroyed if it was not for G-d's intervention, like my parents for example.
Can you tell me about your parents, therebbe?
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KAding
09-18-2006, 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by glo
I was having this discussion with my husband:

Sometimes you hear of people who leave their faith (be it Christianity, Islam or anything else), come to the conclusion that God is not real and become atheists.


I cannot imagne that anybody, having once believed in God, can suddenly not believe in him any more! :rollseyes
I can imagine that people may get angry with God, or disillusioned with other believers - but not that they can genuinely not believe in his existence any more.


My husband disagrees, and says he has read many testamonies of people who did just that - stopped believing that God was real!

What do you think?
Is it possible?
Do you know people who have done this?


Peace.
I'm somewhat confused about this question? Why would it not be possible? Why is losing faith harder than getting faith? In general, I would say that losing faith in something is generally easier than gaining it. At least, thats how it works for people and in, say, politics.

I do agree that it is more likely that someone who becomes an atheist never really believed in the first place. But I think the same goes for an atheist becoming Christian or Muslim, they are more likely to not have been true rational atheists, but rather never really thought about it much before. I'm guessing here, I don't have much experience with either.
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glo
09-18-2006, 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by KAding
I'm somewhat confused about this question? Why would it not be possible? Why is losing faith harder than getting faith? In general, I would say that losing faith in something is generally easier than gaining it. At least, thats how it works for people and in, say, politics.
Thanks KAding!

I had to laugh about your post, because my husband found the question just as ludicrous! (Must be an atheist thing!) ;D

I think many people in this thread have put my thinking into their own words ... when you believe in God being the all-powerful creator, I just cannot imagine that you an just turn that belief off.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen - I just can't imagine it at all!

peace :)
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Abdul Fattah
09-18-2006, 03:25 PM
Originally Posted by KAding
I'm somewhat confused about this question? Why would it not be possible? Why is losing faith harder than getting faith? In general, I would say that losing faith in something is generally easier than gaining it. At least, thats how it works for people and in, say, politics.
If someone truly believes, he doesn't just consider it likely, or consider it plausible, he considers his belief a certainty, perhaps even more certain then anything else on this world. So for a worldly thing to come inbetween that is quite unlikely.

I do agree that it is more likely that someone who becomes an atheist never really believed in the first place. But I think the same goes for an atheist becoming Christian or Muslim, they are more likely to not have been true rational atheists, but rather never really thought about it much before. I'm guessing here, I don't have much experience with either.
I used to be a true rational atheist, and I constantly debated religious people, so it' s not like I was an atheist who just didn't care or failed to look into things. I just based my worldvieuw on a flawed set of reasonings.
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snakelegs
09-18-2006, 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by Mazed
ye but its men who commit the horrors.... and its on the day of judgement when full recompense will be paid...
i think to anyone living through the horrors of war, seeing their loved ones slaughtered before their eyes and witnessing all kinds of brutality and atrocities, the idea of recompense on the day of judgement would not be very comforting.
but as glo and the rebbe have pointed out, such experiences can either cause a person to turn away from god, or to draw closer to god.
i disagree with those here who have said that if such experiences turn a believer in to an atheist this means that their belief was not strong to begin with.
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-18-2006, 06:39 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i think to anyone living through the horrors of war, seeing their loved ones slaughtered before their eyes and witnessing all kinds of brutality and atrocities, the idea of recompense on the day of judgement would not be very comforting.
yes illusions can drive people crazy, you've got a good point snakelegs, if only there was someway to portray to those poor souls that its a test from Allah and those who pass it have something far greater waiting for them just beyond...

but as glo and the rebbe have pointed out, such experiences can either cause a person to turn away from god, or to draw closer to god.
i disagree with those here who have said that if such experiences turn a believer in to an atheist this means that their belief was not strong to begin with.
But strong believers have existed in islam, they've been punished to such extents that they were savaged/abused/tormented/had holed dug into there backs/had there arms pulled till it was dislocated etc etc but after all these horrors they wouldnt give up there faith. Theres those who have seen there children thrown into the fire and boiling oil etc etc yet they choose to remain firm in faith, there were those who were hung naked humiliated and tortured yet they choose to remain firm in there faith.

i still cant believe someone who's strongly believed can disbelieve....

sry if our views clash :p

:peace: :)
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Trumble
09-18-2006, 06:39 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I don't know much about Buddhism but many of my Hindu friends believe that any suffering they receive is based on some past life time event... what are your thoughts on that do you share a similar understanding?
Similar, although not identical. Buddhists don't believe that the same individual soul or ego-entity is preserved, principally because in reality it never existed in the first place.

There is no element of suffering being "allowed" to happen in Buddhism. It is just the way things are, an inevitability until it is finally ended by Buddha-hood and the elimination of any sense of an individual ego-entity. With that, the 'selfish' desires that lead inevitably to suffering can no longer arise, because in reality there is nothing have to desires, or anything to desire.
Reply

Al-Zaara
09-18-2006, 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by glo

I think those of us who feel our faith in God is unfallible, may be a little naive. A think any of us would have our breaking point, when we would question God severely!
(Witnessing and experiencing the horrors of the holocaust, or watching your family and livelihood being washed away by a tsunami, or just being worn down by the daily grind - those are just a few things)

If my family was killed, or I lost the use of my arms and legs, or civil war broke out in my country ... would I really continue to joyfully follow God, praise him for all his blessings and continue to serve him?
Here and now, sitting behind my computer, in a relatively peaceful community, with my family still safely in bed and with the full use of my limbs, I would answer a convincing yes!
But if the day came, would I still be so sure???

Let's not kid ourselves ... we all have times when we question and doubt God ... or is there aybody here who can honestly say he doesn't??
Greetings, glo

Actually, I may sound young and naive to you now, but I know that I would NOT doubt Allah (swt) even in the worst situations possible. (which for me would be like family murdered and tortured and I would witness it)

Everything happens for a reason and I believe it will come a time when I will meet my family again and see those who have hurt people being punished...

This life is unjust but Allah (swt) is just. This life was always meant to be a test and in the end, we'll all meet again to see our results...

I have faith in Allah (swt) and know eveything will be alright.

Of course I'm only human. I cannot imagine that I wouldn't be very very sad, tired and emotionally & physically weak, depressed and very afraid... But in those times the only one I'd ever really find comfort from would be Allah(swt). :)

Inshallah, I'm making "sense" now. :)

I pray to Allah (swt) that He will be merciful towards us. Ameen. :)

Peace :)
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- Qatada -
09-18-2006, 06:53 PM
Hi snakelegs.


i think to anyone living through the horrors of war, seeing their loved ones slaughtered before their eyes and witnessing all kinds of brutality and atrocities, the idea of recompense on the day of judgement would not be very comforting.


I think that if a someone know's that a person will be recompensed for the injustice that has been done to them in this world, it is a form of mercy and justice. Because the person realises that dying isn't the end, so that person who did the act of injustice - they won't get away for the crime that he/she may have commited.

Instead - they will be judged by a Greater Authority, an Authority that will judge between mankind Justly. This is fair, because the one who did the act of injustice thought that he/she had more power and authority in this world. Whereas it will be this person who will be humiliated in the hereafter.




i disagree with those here who have said that if such experiences turn a believer in to an atheist this means that their belief was not strong to begin with.


I agree with this, but i also believe that once a person let's go of their faith - they've actually let go of "the most trustworthy handhold"


Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (Qur'an 2:256)



A person can only loosen his/her hand when he/she feels that they can't hold on any longer, when they feel that they have no more strength left - because they feel that they can't bear the burden.. they feel it's too much.


On no soul do We place a burden greater than it can bear: (Qur'an 23:62)




We know that this life is a test, so we will be trialled. These trials won't be more severe than what we can bear. So no-one can have the excuse to say that "i can't take it no more" - because Allaah will test a person according to their level of faith and patience.

The prophet's had the most faith in Allaah, so Allaah gave them the most severest of trials. This will carry on going down according to a person's level of patience.



The muslim's know they will be trialled:


Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, "We believe", and that they will not be tested?

We did test those before them, and Allah will certainly know those who are true from those who are false.

Do those who practise evil think that they will get the better of Us? Evil is their judgment!



[Qur'an 29: 2-4]



Therefore the one's who truely enter islam whole heartedly, Allaah will make the path easy for them. Whereas those who strive to do sin, Allaah will make that path easy for them too.

But in the end, we will all be brought back to our Creator to be judged on everything that we did.



Allaah Almighty knows best.



Peace.

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جوري
09-18-2006, 06:58 PM
Always the faithful are tested and tempted........just remember (job) Ayoob 3lyh islaam.....
we have to prepare to be anything in life... to be doctors or engineers, teachers or taxi drivers... we have to take exams, we have to pass them we have to prove out worth and postion within our communities.... the test of life is no different really... just a much larger scale and less structured if we choose not to follow guidence... my two cents.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-18-2006, 07:14 PM
MashAllah nicely put lol.
Reply

Ubaidah
09-18-2006, 07:37 PM
I have met those who were atheist, and I'd say about 80% of those had an event that changed their views on a higher power. But I've also noticed, many are just of the "I dislike organized religion, so I dislike the idea of a God". As for myself, I cannot see how someone could feel that way. But to each his own, I guess.
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glo
09-18-2006, 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by JMF
I have met those who were atheist, and I'd say about 80% of those had an event that changed their views on a higher power. But I've also noticed, many are just of the "I dislike organized religion, so I dislike the idea of a God". As for myself, I cannot see how someone could feel that way. But to each his own, I guess.
I agree that many non-believers judge God by the behaviour and attitude of his human followers - which clearly doesn't do God any justice!!!

Peace
Reply

glo
09-18-2006, 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by Al-Zaara
Greetings, glo

Actually, I may sound young and naive to you now, but I know that I would NOT doubt Allah (swt) even in the worst situations possible. (which for me would be like family murdered and tortured and I would witness it)

Everything happens for a reason and I believe it will come a time when I will meet my family again and see those who have hurt people being punished...

This life is unjust but Allah (swt) is just. This life was always meant to be a test and in the end, we'll all meet again to see our results...

I have faith in Allah (swt) and know eveything will be alright.

Of course I'm only human. I cannot imagine that I wouldn't be very very sad, tired and emotionally & physically weak, depressed and very afraid... But in those times the only one I'd ever really find comfort from would be Allah(swt). :)

Inshallah, I'm making "sense" now. :)

I pray to Allah (swt) that He will be merciful towards us. Ameen. :)

Peace :)
Hi Al-Zaara

I admire you for your strength of faith, and pray that God will not put it to the test!

Peace, sister :)
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Woodrow
09-18-2006, 07:46 PM
Just my opinion. I suspect the very same factors that cause a person to have a strong belief in God(swt) are the very same factors that cause a person to become an atheist. However, they are interpreted differently.

A believer in God(swt) sees things as a manifestation of God's(swt) power. An atheist views them as the physical limitations of matter and energy.

Both views have a very strong basis for being seen as they are.

Now the problem is why would somebody who does believed in God(swt) become a non-believer? The simple answer is because it places their emotions into a comfort zone which will justify their deeds and innermost thoughts.

I would say that their concept of God(swt) became focused on the fact that by the aknowledgement of God(swt) as being all powerfull, came the realization that nobody can do any thing to earn God's(swt) love and forgiveness. If the person looses track of the fact that God(swt) does love us, and does not expect us to do anything we are not capable of, it can be much more comforting to just deny the existance of God(swt) and have no fear of the future, because there is no future, to be seen.
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snakelegs
09-18-2006, 08:31 PM
i am not presenting my views here. i'm not an atheist and thank god, i have never had to live through the nightmares that people all over the world are living through right this moment, while i am sitting comfortably in front of my computer. i cannot even guess how i would react if i was in their shoes. but i understood why the people i knew had become atheists after their horrific experiences.
woodrow said it well when he said that the same experience can cause people to react completely differently.
mazed - yes, i realise that muslims have gone through tremendous suffereing and remained steadfast in their faith. other people from other religions have done likewise. i just gave an example of some of the people i've known personally who became atheists in the concentration camps of WW2. as the rebbe said, many became more religious as a result of the same experience. and mazed btw, it's quite ok if our views clash, lol! ;D
fi_sabilillah - i agree 100% with this statement:
"i also believe that once a person let's go of their faith - they've actually let go of "the most trustworthy handhold"
JMF - you wrote about those who would say: "I dislike organized religion, so I dislike the idea of a God". i just want to point out that it is perfectly possible to believe in god and not in organized religion. god and religion are not necessarily synonymous.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-18-2006, 10:20 PM
Some people reject God because they can find no evidence for Him, which satisfies both their hearts and minds simultaneously. Then there are others who accept God on the basis of emotional or irrational reasons, which satisfy their hearts, but leave their minds unsure. These two groups of people have never found a satisfying answer to the question of their relationship with God. Then there are yet others who have found the correct path which God intended for us: to accept Him and His message to us using our minds first and foremost, and the heart follows easily and naturally as a consequence.

Instead of searching for the answer, there are also some people who chose to simply brush the question aside and ignore it unfortunately. This is the easy way out of what appears to be a very difficult, mysterious question which may seem to have no final solution. Most of these people are unaware of a very powerful message, which completely and unequivocally establishes the correct path to God. This message squares with both the mind and the heart, and it has no equal since it comes to us straight from God Himself.

Edit

Why does God allow men and women to be hurt? There are some people who use the presence of suffering and evil in this world as grounds to lose hope and perhaps even to reject God. The limited free will and reason of human beings destroys that argument. We are responsible for what we do, and must bear the consequences - that is the liability or price of freedom. The evil that we do and suffer from is chosen by us and not by God,

"...God wills no wrong to His creation." [Qur'an 3:108]

However, God also guarantees us that aside from our own evil actions and their effects, God Himself will put us through some trials and tribulations here on earth - but the key is they will never be more than we can handle, and they may even be good for us,

"If misfortune touches you [know that] similar misfortune has touched [other] people as well; for it is by turns that We apportion unto men such days [of fortune and misfortune]: and [this] to the end that God might mark out those who have attained to faith, and choose from among you such as [with their lives] bear witness to the truth - since God does not love evildoers - and that God might render pure of all dross those who have attained to faith, and bring to nought those who deny the truth. Do you think that you could enter Paradise unless God takes cognisance of your having striven hard [in His cause], and takes cognisance of your being patient in adversity?" [Qur'an 3:140-142]
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Al-Zaara
09-19-2006, 07:49 AM
Originally Posted by glo
Hi Al-Zaara

I admire you for your strength of faith, and pray that God will not put it to the test!

Peace, sister :)
Hi glo,

Well, He is putting it on test everyday. ;D

Thank you for your kind words. And thanx for not saying I'm naive or something. :)

Peace, sis :rose:
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glo
09-19-2006, 07:55 AM
Originally Posted by Al-Zaara
Hi glo,

Well, He is putting it on test everyday. ;D

Thank you for your kind words. And thanx for not saying I'm naive or something. :)

Peace, sis :rose:
Hi Al-Zaara

Yeah, I know God tests out faith daily. That's why we need to commit ourselves to him and his will daily.

I meant testing your faith to the extend of allowing terrible things to happen to your loved ones! :(
It may come to be God's will - but that doesn't mean it would be my wish for you.

Peace :)
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syilla
09-19-2006, 08:12 AM
glo... i just wondering...

what did your husband think about religion now? is he still atheits or...now he is agnostic?
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north_malaysian
09-19-2006, 08:57 AM
Well..... I know a Muslim became an atheist because his love was rejected by a religious Muslim.
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Al-Zaara
09-19-2006, 12:36 PM
Originally Posted by glo
It may come to be God's will - but that doesn't mean it would be my wish for you.

Peace :)
Hi glo

Nooo... Of course you wouldn't. :uuh: Don't get me wrong, I understood your point. :D

What I wanted to say is like, everyday happenings may seem like the hardest ones for me at the moment, and that's what I meant that Allah (swt) testes me everyday.

Of course something happening to my family would be the worst possible, but I thought like if that has not happened, then all the other things may seem like the worst at the moment...

Hehe. I am confusing myself now too. :giggling:

But anyways, I pray that Allah (swt) will be merciful towards you and your family too, my friend. :)

Peace
Reply

Al-Zaara
09-19-2006, 12:37 PM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Well..... I know a Muslim became an atheist because his love was rejected by a religious Muslim.
That makes like no sense to me!

Loose faith in God because one religious person rejected your love...?? :?
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glo
09-19-2006, 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by syilla
glo... i just wondering...

what did your husband think about religion now? is he still atheits or...now he is agnostic?
No. I'm afraid he started off as an agnostic.
It was me becoming a Christian that turned him into an atheist!
:rollseyes
I guess it prompted him to seriously think what he thought of God - and he came to the conclusion that he didn't believe in him!
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north_malaysian
09-20-2006, 04:45 AM
Originally Posted by Al-Zaara
That makes like no sense to me!

Loose faith in God because one religious person rejected your love...?? :?
What should i say then... that's his answer to me.... maybe because the girl he love is soooo committed to religion ... and rejected his love .... so he became hostile to religion.....
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syilla
09-20-2006, 11:21 AM
Originally Posted by glo
No. I'm afraid he started off as an agnostic.
It was me becoming a Christian that turned him into an atheist!
:rollseyes
I guess it prompted him to seriously think what he thought of God - and he came to the conclusion that he didn't believe in him!
Do you ever try to ask him to study other religion?
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IceQueen~
09-20-2006, 11:25 AM
I personally think that no one can truly and sincerely from the bottom of their hearts not believe in God at all-------there is alwasy something even though they might not understand the feeling or interpret it in the right way
Reply

glo
09-20-2006, 11:37 AM
Originally Posted by syilla
Do you ever try to ask him to study other religion?
Syilla, my husband knows more about the different religions than I do ... including my own! :rollseyes ;D

He has both theoretical knowledge and intellectual understanding - God just doesn't have any meaning to him.
I mean, he doesn't have a particular problem with my Christian faith, but with people believing in God or any divinity in any shape or form per se.

peace.
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IceQueen~
09-20-2006, 11:41 AM
How can God not have any meaning? unless people REFUSE to see Him, I mean if someone doesn't want to listen you can't force them no matter what-
I mean how can you get water into an upside down glass?
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glo
09-20-2006, 11:52 AM
Originally Posted by Marya
How can God not have any meaning? unless people REFUSE to see Him, I mean if someone doesn't want to listen you can't force them no matter what-
I mean how can you get water into an upside down glass?
I know what you mean, Marya.
It doesn't make sense to me either. :)

But just as bizarre as you and I may find the idea of not believing in God, my husband finds the idea of believing in him!
It's as simple as that.


peace. :)
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IceQueen~
09-20-2006, 11:56 AM
hmm...I suppose...
Islamically i know that God has given us three things to find Him-our senses, our intellect (pondering and reflecting) and revelation.

When a person refuses to see the truth then God puts a covering over their hearts because they don't deserve to see it after that and so they are spiritually blind, deaf and dumb...

All Guidance is in God's hands....He Guides whom He wills----Insha allah I hope we are all of the Guided and remain so till the end....
Reply

glo
09-20-2006, 12:21 PM
Originally Posted by Marya
All Guidance is in God's hands....He Guides whom He wills----Insha allah I hope we are all of the Guided and remain so till the end....
Amen to that. :)

You see, my husband has both this senses and his intellect ... I am just waiting for the revelation!
Like the car sticker said: Relax! God is in control. :D
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nishom
09-20-2006, 01:22 PM
Challenge to Atheists

Atheism is a logical way to live one's life. It compels a person to take responsibility for his own actions and not to blame it on God, the devil or other spiritual forces. Since an atheist believes that this physical life is all there is he will try to make the best of it and not suffer insufferable conditions in the hope of some imagined afterlife. If all peoples were atheists there would be none of the conflicts we see today that are fueled by different belief systems. Atheists are as upstanding in general as any Christian, Jew or Buddhist. You don't have to believe in God to be a moral person.

Having said all those nice things it is now time to take a shot at the smug atheist worldview. The atheist thinks he has it all figured out. Atheists can point to the contradictions in the Bible, the track record of the Christian church, the conflicts produced by competing religions in the world, and of course science is on their side when it comes to evolution - the fossil record will prove evolution except to the most enthusiastic creationist. Science also suports the view of a very old universe - no surprise there.

Now here is the challenge: Does becoming an atheist make a person a better human being? Does not believing in God prompt or inspire a person to positive actions. Christianity (and other religions) can point to many, many people whose lives were changed for the better by adopting the faith. Can atheism make the same claim? Can atheists point to examples of people who have had their lives positively changed? Have any drug addicts given up their addictions as a result of discarding religion? Have any thieves stopped stealing and started earning an honest living as a result of becoming infidels? Have any abusive husbands stopped beating their wives as a result of abandoning a belief in God? In short, if atheism is such a positive way to live what real good has it done? Can it even be called a "belief-system"? (After all it is really about a lack of belief - isn't it?) If you would like to comment on the positive effects of atheism (if they indeed do exist) then E-mail me your views and I will post them below.

Proving that the Bible is flawed only proves that either the Christian God does not exist or that he has a high tolerance for incompetance and error in his sacred book. Pointing to the performance of the Christian church and other religions over the ages only proves that those organized religions were flawed and perhaps do not actually represent the Creator. Pointing to the evil in this world, the pointless deaths, the triumph of evil men, the violence in nature - this does not prove that God does not exist - only that he is absent from the scene or that he does not wish to intervene. Evolution does not necessarily pre-empt God - he could easily have used that method to produce the life diversity that we see on this earth. It could easily be argued that life is designed to evolve on its own most of the time and yet be subject to intervention as God desires. Debunking or criticizing religion is mostly a negative activity. It is a positive effort only when it frees people from a strangle-hold placed on them by too-authoritarian beliefs. After the chains have been broken - then what? A void has been created. Is the person really any better off than before?
Reply

glo
09-20-2006, 02:02 PM
Nishom

An interesting article which manages to challenge atheists and cleverly stab Christianity at the same time ... :rollseyes

Proving that the Bible is flawed only proves that either the Christian God does not exist or that he has a high tolerance for incompetance and error in his sacred book. Pointing to the performance of the Christian church and other religions over the ages only proves that those organized religions were flawed and perhaps do not actually represent the Creator.
Is it your own writing?
I cannot help but think that there is an additional text to this ... pointing squarely at Islam being the only true religion!
(Am I wrong??) :D

peace.
Reply

Skillganon
09-20-2006, 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by glo
Nishom

An interesting article which manges to challenge atheists and cleverly stab Christianity at the same time ... :rollseyes

peace.
I noticed that too ;D
Reply

KAding
09-20-2006, 10:56 PM
Originally Posted by nishom
Challenge to Atheists

Atheism is a logical way to live one's life. It compels a person to take responsibility for his own actions and not to blame it on God, the devil or other spiritual forces. Since an atheist believes that this physical life is all there is he will try to make the best of it and not suffer insufferable conditions in the hope of some imagined afterlife. If all peoples were atheists there would be none of the conflicts we see today that are fueled by different belief systems. Atheists are as upstanding in general as any Christian, Jew or Buddhist. You don't have to believe in God to be a moral person.

Having said all those nice things it is now time to take a shot at the smug atheist worldview. The atheist thinks he has it all figured out. Atheists can point to the contradictions in the Bible, the track record of the Christian church, the conflicts produced by competing religions in the world, and of course science is on their side when it comes to evolution - the fossil record will prove evolution except to the most enthusiastic creationist. Science also suports the view of a very old universe - no surprise there.
A few remarks. Firstly, I don't think atheists think 'they have it all figured out'. Clearly, having it all figured out, knowing the Truth (with a capital T) is something religions profess. Secondly, I am an atheist but I still think we would fight wars even if everyone was an atheist. Religions are not the only ideologies humans are willing to fight about.

Now here is the challenge: Does becoming an atheist make a person a better human being? Does not believing in God prompt or inspire a person to positive actions. Christianity (and other religions) can point to many, many people whose lives were changed for the better by adopting the faith. Can atheism make the same claim? Can atheists point to examples of people who have had their lives positively changed? Have any drug addicts given up their addictions as a result of discarding religion? Have any thieves stopped stealing and started earning an honest living as a result of becoming infidels? Have any abusive husbands stopped beating their wives as a result of abandoning a belief in God? In short, if atheism is such a positive way to live what real good has it done? Can it even be called a "belief-system"? (After all it is really about a lack of belief - isn't it?) If you would like to comment on the positive effects of atheism (if they indeed do exist) then E-mail me your views and I will post them below.

Proving that the Bible is flawed only proves that either the Christian God does not exist or that he has a high tolerance for incompetance and error in his sacred book. Pointing to the performance of the Christian church and other religions over the ages only proves that those organized religions were flawed and perhaps do not actually represent the Creator. Pointing to the evil in this world, the pointless deaths, the triumph of evil men, the violence in nature - this does not prove that God does not exist - only that he is absent from the scene or that he does not wish to intervene. Evolution does not necessarily pre-empt God - he could easily have used that method to produce the life diversity that we see on this earth. It could easily be argued that life is designed to evolve on its own most of the time and yet be subject to intervention as God desires. Debunking or criticizing religion is mostly a negative activity. It is a positive effort only when it frees people from a strangle-hold placed on them by too-authoritarian beliefs. After the chains have been broken - then what? A void has been created. Is the person really any better off than before?
It depends on the person, and the exact religious 'strangle-hold' which was placed on them. My position always is that it must be a personal choice. For some being an atheist might mean liberation, for others becoming a Muslim might mean liberation. To each his own. In my opinion it is a mistake to assume one way of life is perfect for all these billions of unique individuals.

Can religion make an individual a better human being? Of course. But it can also make an individual a worse human being. All ideologies are dangerous if pushed to the extremes IMHO, regardless if they are secular or religious.

And thats only on the personal level, at the level of society there are other dangers. Some ideologies are easier to abuse than others obviously. While I believe Christianity can make someone a better human, I also believe institutionalized Christianity can be a threat to our freedom and, yes, well-being. One only has to look at history to see that. I personally believe it is no different with Islam. IMHO both religions provide enough opportunities for abuse, abuse that can easily lead to totalitarian forms of government and an attempt to push everyone into that 'one True' way of life.

So to answer your question. Atheism does not in itself make for better human beings, since it is indeed a negative, merely a denial of God. But IMHO it has led the way for new ideas, like the idea that sovereignty lies with the people (ie. democracy) and not with God. And that people must find their own way too happiness, instead of being force-fed one way of life (ie. liberty).

I hope this helps.
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Joe98
09-21-2006, 02:19 AM
Originally Posted by nishom
Does becoming an atheist make a person a better human being?

The answer is yes!

The main atheist philosophy is that anybody can do anything they want so long as they do not irritate nor hurt another person.

Religious people will follow their religion even if it means irritating somebody else. If it is allowed within their religion they will do it.

This means atheist test for being a better human being is higher than that of religious people.
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Les_Nubian
09-21-2006, 02:24 AM
Well actually I used to believe in God (in the Christian sense of worshipping Jesus)...then I deserted that and became sort of an agnostic. I completely just threw God out of my life. Never even thought about God...I just went about my daily business, living my empty life.

Untill of course I found Islam (after so many religious journeys down a few other religious paths like Buddhism, Paganism, New Age crap, etcetera). Thank God! :D
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جوري
09-21-2006, 02:31 AM
...A decline into moral degeneracy hurts many people... too many allowances that you may deem un-hurtful that are not allowed by religious laws may in facr hurt people directly or indirectly......... a simple example would be sperm and egg donation.... harmless enough... you might even be helping some barren couple become parents... but too many anons donate... one Anon can donate more than once .....many would be siblings might end up marrying each other in that not too distant future......... Everything has ramification if ungoverned... we need not just laws but ethics with which to conduct our life.........
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Joe98
09-21-2006, 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by Les_Nubian
Until of course I found Islam (after so many religious journeys down a few other religious paths like Buddhism, Paganism, New Age crap, etcetera

You and others like you, NEED this stuff! That’s why you were searching.

It is people like yourself who invented religion in the first place!
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-21-2006, 02:49 AM
invented? jus because u didnt like it doesnt mean its invention. watch it
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dougmusr
09-21-2006, 03:19 AM
Originally Posted by Joe98
You and others like you, NEED this stuff! That’s why you were searching.

It is people like yourself who invented religion in the first place!
I think that as a atheist you would believe that man's behavior is an evolutionary development, and the widespread existance of religion among mankind would show that it has a benefit to the survival of the species.
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Joe98
09-21-2006, 03:44 AM
Originally Posted by dougmusr
....religion....would show that it has a benefit to the survival of the species.

Only to Les_Nubian and others with that same need.

There was a person here calling herself "Searching Soul" and she has the same need.

I don't object to anybody having religion. As I already said, so long as nobody irritates anybody we can all live happily.
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جوري
09-21-2006, 03:52 AM
isn't backbiting an irritant?... I mean where do you draw the line at "needs"? I think your needs can be irritating to others around you especially when they compell you to talk of someone who isn't around to defend his/herself? so I suppose it is all relative?
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Abdul Fattah
09-21-2006, 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by Joe98
You and others like you, NEED this stuff! That’s why you were searching.

It is people like yourself who invented religion in the first place!
That's a matter of interpretation, one could just as well say that people found it easyer because their need made them more determined in their search. what you have here is a personal opinion based on absolutely nothing. But sure, your intitled to it....
Reply

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