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جوري
09-18-2006, 12:09 AM
I am posting this article b/c I really can't imagine a worst time in history for one to be Muslim... but in many ways it has proven me wrong... this conflict has existed for ages just colored with a different mind set

Islam and West: Conflict or cohesion?
By Khalid Amayreh

Saturday 04 March 2006, 4:20 Makka Time, 1:20 GMT


Cartoon crisis highlighted divide between Islam and the West



Related:
Spain unveils West-Islam alliance plan
German Muslims want Islam in class



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The recent crisis over the Danish cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad as a terrorist has highlighted the misunderstanding and cultural divide between Islam and the West.




Author and human rights activist Mahmoud Nammoura, who has written two books on Islam-West relations, believes the cartoons reveal a "cultural disharmony" and not a religious clash.



"This is not a showdown between Islam and Christianity," he said.



"In fact, Europe and much of the West are now living in an era which might be called a post-religious. It is therefore not Christianity, but western cultural arrogance, that stands behind this growing anti-Islamic discourse in certain western circles," says Nammoura, a resident of the West Bank town of Hebron.



Bassam Jarar, considered one of the most prominent Islamic thinkers in Palestine, believes there is a knee-jerk reaction to Islamic communities asserting themselves in Europe.



"They [Europeans] can't easily come to terms with the fact that a militarily and politically defeated umma (community) is asserting a pro-active presence in the heart of the West and is aspiring to present itself as an alternative to western civilisation."



Conflict of civilisations



When asked if the crisis was a vindication of Samuel Huntington's theory of conflict of civilisations, Jarar said: "It is not inevitable if they are (westerners) faithful to democracy. Let them allow the free market of ideas to take its course."



Jarar believes that while the cartoon crisis has a negative aura, and might rekindle old prejudices, it will eventually have a positive income.



"I believe this is going to be a good lesson for both Muslims and Westerners. It might lead to a greater understanding in the long range."



But Father Peter DuBrul of Bethlehem University, a Catholic University funded by the Vatican, believes the causes of anti-Muslim attitudes are rooted in the complex history between Islam and Christianity.



"As you know, a Christian who has not seriously studied Islam cannot take the Holy Quran at face value; there are too many contradictions to Christian beliefs."



Reduced to stereotype



DuBrul believes it is wrong to overlook or marginalise the religious dimension in the West-Islam relationship, saying the term "post-religious" may be a misnomer.



"I think the west is more religious than some Muslims would think and the Muslim east is more secular than some Muslims would admit ..."







Nonetheless, DuBrul, who has been living in the West Bank for many years, believes that despite recent drawbacks western-Muslim understanding can be achieved.



"The Islamic mission to the world comes into conflict with other missions, and such 'missions' have much to learn from one another," he said.



"We are in the process of learning now, very painfully. The enemy is always reduced to a stereotype [that] is easier to kill."



Early seeds of divide



The using of stereotypes to demonise Islam can be traced to early Western Christian perceptions of Muslims in the Middle Ages.



In Chanson de Roland, a medieval French epic of the Crusades, the poet envisioned Islam as an unholy trinity of the Prophet Muhammad and two demons Appolin and Tervagant.



The crusades by the Franks against the Muslim East did succeed in demythologising some of Western perceptions of Islam.



For many centuries, both Eastern and Western Christendom called Muslims Saracens. In the Iberian Peninsula, they called Muslims Moors, and people of the Iberian culture continued to call all Muslims "Moors" even if they met them in South East Asia. (e.g. the Moro Liberation Front in the Southern Philippines).



In Most of Europe, Muslims were called Turks, and a convert to Islam was said to have "turned Turk" even if the conversion took place in a place as far away as India.



Europe and the Quran



In 1649, the first English translation of the Quran was published in London by Alexander Ross who based his research on a 1647 French translation by Andre du Tyer, the French consol in Egypt.



Ross, who did not speak Arabic, added an appendix to his "translation" of the Quran:



"Good reader, the great Arabian Imposter now at least after a thousand years, is … arrived in England, and his Alcoran, or Gallimaufry of Errors (a brat as deformed as the parents, and as full of heresies as his scald-head was of scurffe) hath learned to speak English … so should the reading of this Alcoran excite us both to bless God’s judgments, who suffers so many countries to be blinded and inslaved with this misshapen issue of Mahomets braine."



"They [Europeans] can't easily come to terms with the fact that a militarily and politically defeated umma (community) is asserting a pro-active presence in the heart of the West and is aspiring to present itself as an alternative to western civilisation"

Bassam Jarar,
Palestinian Islamic thinker

Although Ross's conceptualisation of Islam reflected the overall European rejection and fear of it, a few of his contemporaries treated Islam much more objectively.



Henry Stubbes, born in England in 1632, wrote several manuscripts on the Islamic faith entitled "Account of the Rise and Progress of Mahometanism, with the Life of Mahomet and a Vindication of Him and His Religion from the Calumnies of the Christians."



Medieval Christian legends



Stubbes ridiculed the medieval Christian legends about Muhammad as "rubbish". Some of these legends said Muhammad was an epileptic, and that Muhammad's inspiration came to him via a pet pigeon which used to eat peas from his ear.



In "The Character of Mahomet and Fabulous Inventions of the Christians Concerning him and his religion," Stubbes presented a remarkable image of the Prophet, considering the general anti-Islamic prejudices and misperceptions of that time.



He wrote:



"I doubt not but by this time your curiosity will prompt you to enquire after the portraiture of this extraordinary person. His great soul was lodged in a body of Middle size; he had a large head, a brown complexion but fresh colour, a beard long and thick but not grey, a grave aspect wherein the awfulness of majesty seemed to be tempered with admirable sweetness which at once imprinted in the beholder’s respect, reverence and love. His eyes were quick and sparkling, his limbs exactly turned, his mien was great and noble, his motion free and easy, and every action had a grace so peculiar that it was impossible to see him with indifference."



Stubbes' ideas on Islam, however, were not popular within contemporary European circles and were not published until 1911.



God-moon?



The belief that Islam was at odds with the mostly Christian west persisted into the 21st century and reappear in US evangelical discourse about Islam.



In 2004, Pat Robertson, head of the Christian Broadcasting Network said in a speech in Hertzlya, north of Tel Aviv, that the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians was actually a conflict between the Judeo-Christian God and Islam's God-moon.



Others have referred to Allah as a pre-Islamic Arabian pagan deity.



This type of discourse, says Nammoura, reflects fears by these evangelicals that Islam constitutes the main threat and obstacle to their dispensationalist ideology.



"They see Islam, not Buddhism, not Hinduism, not Judaism, as the main geopolitical threat, this is why they come up with this rubbish."



According to Philip Hitti, author of History of the Arabs, the Christian medieval image of Islam was the aggregate product of a confluence of streams of multiple sources in Syro-Byzantine, Hispano-French, Sicillio-Italian and crusading literature.



This literature conceptualised Muslims as pagans worshiping a false prophet who worked out his doctrine from Biblical sources under the tutelage of an Arian Monk.



Such beliefs were caricatured not only in religious and literary works, but also in art. Dante in his "Divine Comedy" was thus prompted consequently to consign the Prophet and his son-in-law Ali, to the ninth hell reserved for those who sow scandal and schism.



Gradual change




Christianity and Islam differ on
fundamental doctrines


But with industrialisation western perceptions of Islam began to change slowly as more Europeans came in contact with Muslims. However, these perceptions remained basically negative due to the fundamental doctrinal differences between Islam and Christianity.



However, with the rise of Orientalism in the late 18th and 19th centuries, Europeans (and some Americans) began to view the world of Islam less imaginatively.



Following the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in World War I, European powers occupied or came to control the bulk of Muslim lands in the Middle East. At this time, European attitudes changed from fear and hatred to patronisation and contempt.



Although European occupation of the Arab lands was seen mainly within the framework of European colonial expansionism, its religious dimensions remained.



British General Edmund Allenby's capture of Jerusalem on 10 December 1917 was considered a "Christian" victory against the Turks.



An article published in 1917 in the Catholic magazine "America" captioned "Crusaders in Khaki," and celebrated that the Holy Land was finally in Christian hands.



But Father DuBrul believes such attitudes deepen the cultural divide and must be challenged.



He urges stereotypes be replaced by discourse, exchange of ideas, self-knowledge, learning about others and prayers.



"If there is to be a greater understanding in the long range, it has to start with critical respect for the religious component in both cultures."


Aljazeera
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-18-2006, 12:52 AM
Nice share sis. It's good to know people understand Islam. Makes me feel better lol.
It's true, its always been happening.
salaam
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therebbe
09-18-2006, 12:58 AM
German Muslims want Islam in class
Is Christianity, and Judaism in classes there also?
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جوري
09-18-2006, 12:58 AM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Nice share sis. It's good to know people understand Islam. Makes me feel better lol.
It's true, its always been happening.
salaam
sob7an Allah... I am always disheartened by all I hear and see... and yet to imagine all the hardships and misunderstandings our predecessors suffered puts it all into perspective for me.... it is the plight of the mo'min thanks for your post
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جوري
09-18-2006, 01:03 AM
Originally Posted by therebbe
Is Christianity, and Judaism in classes there also?
I believe Jews have taught Germans plenty since WWII and it has certainly made it to my curriculum right here in the good old US of A... I am sure most of it deserved.... but whether you like to believe it or not... there is the same sentiment toward Muslims now that they once had about the Jews.... slowely places like Guantanamo are acceptable ideas... every Muslim male here in the U.S had/has to register himself... 30% of americans interviewd believe that Muslims should have some tags to identify them as Muslims...where do you think it is all going? teaching people of Islam doesn't mean imposing religion on them rather clearing some mythology ... the moon God thing is kind of funny I'd think in this day an age people shouldnt be reduced to a stero type...
peace
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Keltoi
09-18-2006, 01:54 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I believe Jews have taught Germans plenty since WWII and it has certainly made it to my curriculum right here in the good old US of A... I am sure most of it deserved.... but whether you like to believe it or not... there is the same sentiment toward Muslims now that they once had about the Jews.... slowely places like Guantanamo are acceptable ideas... every Muslim male here in the U.S had/has to register himself... 30% of americans interviewd believe that Muslims should have some tags to identify them as Muslims...where do you think it is all going? teaching people of Islam doesn't mean imposing religion on them rather clearing some mythology ... the moon God thing is kind of funny I'd think in this day an age people shouldnt be reduced to a stero type...
peace

Every Muslim male in the U.S. has had to register himself huh? I find that claim mildly amusing. Unless of course you are referring to those in the country with a student visa or other form of legal immigration. If you call that "registering", than you have a few million Mexican immigrants who have "registered" as well. However, if you have some evidence that "every Muslim male in the U.S." has to "register" I would be happy to read it.
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جوري
09-18-2006, 01:57 AM
google it, I am sure it won't be difficult to find...
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Keltoi
09-18-2006, 02:06 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
google it, I am sure it won't be difficult to find...
So easy to find all you can say is "google it"....

I looked it up. It was about those in the U.S. with a student visa. Which I am very happy is being done. Before 9-11 people were coming to the U.S. with student visas and the INS would lose track of them and never find them again. It is a sensible thing to do with or without the threat of terrorist cells.
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جوري
09-18-2006, 02:09 AM
sure... I found out about it not through an article but because my bros. a US citizen .. married to an Irish american woman with two kids one 9 and one 6 had to go register himself due to that law... I don't know if it imposed on mexicans as per your argument but it is certainly imposed on Muslim males...
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Keltoi
09-18-2006, 02:13 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
sure... I found out about it not through an article but because my bros. a US citizen .. married to an Irish american woman with two kids one 9 and one 6 had to go register himself due to that law... I don't know if it imposed on mexicans as per your argument but it is certainly imposed on Muslim males...
It is about student visas from countries known to have terrorist ties or known to be source for terrorism. Using the word "Muslim" males in this instance is a red herring, since the point is keeping tabs on those here on a temporary visa basis. Mexican, male and female, are supposedly required to register for their temporary status if they do not seek permanent citizenship. However, it is easy to see how well that program is working out. I'm not sure why a U.S. citizen would be required to register, unless he fit the criteria elaborated on in the article I read about the program.
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جوري
09-18-2006, 02:15 AM
no it isn't about student visas... my brother was a U.S citizen at the time he had to do it... and there was a dead line to do it... you can brush your skills on new law reforms before you make the expected comments.......
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Keltoi
09-18-2006, 02:34 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
no it isn't about student visas... my brother was a U.S citizen at the time he had to do it... and there was a dead line to do it... you can brush your skills on new law reforms before you make the expected comments.......
Student visas are a big part of the registation program. The other element is being a national from one of these countries, or in other words, not being born in the U.S. and immigrating from a country that the State Department lists as a terror threat. It is unfortunate that this has to be done, but there would be a uprising if the government didn't do more to keep track of who is coming into this country from places like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. However, the use of the term "Muslim" in this debate is indeed a red herring. It is about nationality, not religion. All this could be avoided with a national identity card, but the ACLU would fight that too.
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جوري
09-18-2006, 02:44 AM
ummmmmm we are neither saudis nor pakis... in fact I can't think of a country that kisses US ass more than mine and is on very good relations in killing and torturing its own whom it deems "terrorists" at whim to stroke the US ... this is about being Muslim, the xtians from my country get much better treatment here and there... you are entitled to your beliefs keltoi.... the topic here is about islam conflict or cohesion not immigration laws... I am not sure how many times I have to spell it out to you my bros was already a US citizen, furthermore my father before retirment held a high govt. postion with the United Nations, so none of us came here on a visitor or student visa.... I left the world affairs forum for exactly this sort of crap... pls lets stay on topic.... I don't have to prove to you that Muslims get treated shabbily I see it everyday... I see a man's wife detained in the airport for 10 hours while she is 8 months pregnant... I see my dad's friends having to undo their kid's diaper to prove that they didn't strap a bomb to him... I see my bros and sister in law detained in the airport and interrogated after coming back from vacation overseas.... Maybe that too is mildly amusing to you... but it isn't to us... peace
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-18-2006, 02:49 AM
Yea I've, sadly, seen things of that sort...
pathetic..
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snakelegs
09-18-2006, 03:02 AM
i agree that the cartoon issue highlighted the divide, which i think is both religious and cultural. personally, i found it impossible to understand the vehemence of the reaction to the cartoons. i understand that muslims love the prophet and are very offended (as they have every right to be) when someone portrays him as a terrorist, but i do not understand the response by some muslims. this is an example of cultural divide, i think, more than religious.
i think the publication of these cartoons was a deliberate provokation, and some muslims reacted just as it was hoped that they would.
i think the cultural divide is much larger than the religious divide, tho i really don't know how to guage this, since i'm not a christian, i probably underestimate this aspect. i do see an inherent clash between christianity and islam, since both regard themselves as The One True Religion and both proselytize. that alone would make a future clash inevitable.
i think also the secular west is threatened at the idea and concept of an islamist theocracy. (i would be threated by the idea of any theocracy.) i think the fact that islam is more than a religion - it is also political - makes it a potential threat to western society.
however, i think there is some truth in the charge of "cultural arrogance on the part of the west."
and there is a growing backlash against muslims in europe - i think the cartoon thing was an example of that and the outcome strengthened the conservative movements across europe.
there are historical and economic reasons for this cultural gap. but the gap is very real and i don't know if it's possible to bridge it.
i don't know about europe but i think many americans lack historical knowledge and are unaware of the historical context and things seem to happen in a vacuum. i don't think most americans understand that many muslims see what is going on now as a continuation of the crusades.
what is going on in the world now makes it both vital and extemely difficult for the west and islam to understand each other.
i think muslims tend to see it too much as a religious conflict, and many in the west underestimate this angle.
anyway, there are some ramblilng thoughts..
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-18-2006, 03:06 AM
Well your "rambling thoughts" are quite true. Islam is more than a religion for us to follow, its our way of life. It defines and identifies how we live and who we are.
lol i cant even give u reps right now...
Overall the way some Muslims reacted is unacceptable in Islam.
Islam forbids you to destroy ones property or harm others.
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snakelegs
09-18-2006, 03:21 AM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Well your "rambling thoughts" are quite true. Islam is more than a religion for us to follow, its our way of life. It defines and identifies how we live and who we are.
lol i cant even give u reps right now...
Overall the way some Muslims reacted is unacceptable in Islam.
Islam forbids you to destroy ones property or harm others.
it is more than a way of life - it is an entire political system. and this may make a potential clash inevitable.
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Abdulwaheed
09-18-2006, 03:31 AM
Thats a very thought provoking post. I agree with you on the point about it being more than just religion
:clever:
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Joe98
09-18-2006, 04:27 AM
Muslims must follow the rules of Islam.

As a result, many Muslims living in the West, don't socialise with their Western neighbors.

Then they feel isolated from the community and blame it on the West.

This ultimately is the reason we are not compatible.
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therebbe
09-18-2006, 04:48 AM
30% of americans interviewd believe that Muslims should have some tags to identify them as Muslims...
Well that is ridiculous, and is the begining of Nazism.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-18-2006, 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by Joe98
Muslims must follow the rules of Islam.

As a result, many Muslims living in the West, don't socialise with their Western neighbors.

Then they feel isolated from the community and blame it on the West.

This ultimately is the reason we are not compatible.
How long have u been here? and u know nuthing it seems...

Muslims can be a part of plenty of social activities as long as its within the boundaries of Islam. So to say we don't socialize is kinda dumb...
Those who dont do much, aren't taking advantage of this.
In Islam, for Muslims, education is a must, a duty for every man and women.
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KAding
09-18-2006, 03:35 PM
30% of americans interviewd believe that Muslims should have some tags to identify them as Muslims
Do you have a source for that? It is completely outragous.
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جوري
09-18-2006, 04:23 PM
yes it was a CAIR survey out a few months ago... that is not stating every American wants that... just out of the pool they surveyed 30% wanted tags to identify people as Muslims...I'll try to find the S... if not you may want to contact CAIR and have them send you that report...
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KAding
09-19-2006, 02:51 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
yes it was a CAIR survey out a few months ago... that is not stating every American wants that... just out of the pool they surveyed 30% wanted tags to identify people as Muslims...I'll try to find the S... if not you may want to contact CAIR and have them send you that report...
I couldn't find anything about it on their website, although they seem to have all their surveys there :(. Oh well, never mind. It isn't that important.
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جوري
09-19-2006, 02:58 AM
Originally Posted by KAding
I couldn't find anything about it on their website, although they seem to have all their surveys there :(. Oh well, never mind. It isn't that important.
you can contact them at
CAIRTaker@cair.org
they usually answer in a timely manner...
would you be for or against Muslims identifying themselves as Muslims? I think it is kind of hard to miss most of us? lol
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Joe98
09-19-2006, 07:10 AM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Muslims can be a part of plenty of social activities as long as its within the boundaries of Islam.
Thats what I said too!

So tell us, how can they socialise and feel isolated at the same time?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-19-2006, 04:56 PM
Where is there isolation? Am I isolated?
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Joe98
09-20-2006, 12:17 AM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Where is there isolation?

Muslims in the UK claim "isolation" and claim it was a factor in the terrorist attacks of July '05
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-20-2006, 12:41 AM
They're isolated because they are being discriminated there. They're trying to integrate into their community, yet people are being racist and stuff. It's not because of Islam. When I said they can socialize, I meant Islam allows it, but within the boundaries of Islam.
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Skillganon
09-20-2006, 01:47 AM
Originally Posted by Joe98
Muslims in the UK claim "isolation" and claim it was a factor in the terrorist attacks of July '05
The logic follow in the west is Muslim feel isolated because they don't go to the pub and have a pint of beer, and their women don't seem to flirt enough with the punters, by first not going to those social activities. :okay:
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Joe98
09-20-2006, 02:56 AM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
....yet people are being racist and stuff.
You say Muslims in the UK feel isolated due to racism. But Islam is a religion, not a race. How can it be racism?

In the UK there are plenty of people of different races. How come the Chinese Brits live happily?
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Keltoi
09-20-2006, 03:13 AM
I think many Western Muslims feel helpless because they can't control world events and the radical element that is hurting the image of Islam as a whole. Since the Western world(mostly the U.S. and U.K) are in a very real war against a radical ideology calling itself Islam, there will be certain changes in policy that reflect this reality. One of those changes is the focus on people from Arab and Muslim countries. That cannot be avoided. Hopefully this terrible situation we all find ourselves in will end someday in the not so distant future, and the Muslims living in the West can move on with their daily lives without the stress and fear I'm sure many are living with at the moment.
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Skillganon
09-20-2006, 03:16 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
I think many Western Muslims feel helpless because they can't control world events and the radical element that is hurting the image of Islam as a whole. Since the Western world(mostly the U.S. and U.K) are in a very real war against a radical ideology calling itself Islam, there will be certain changes in policy that reflect this reality. One of those changes is the focus on people from Arab and Muslim countries. That cannot be avoided. Hopefully this terrible situation we all find ourselves in will end someday in the not so distant future, and the Muslims living in the West can move on with their daily lives without the stress and fear I'm sure many are living with at the moment.
Oyeah, it is the west noble duty to invade country, physically, politically to bring about democracy, by creating a seemingly creating a percieved threat in the western mind. We are fighting radical Islam, thats why we invaded you.

What was he other excuse in History :?

To civilize the barbarians. :okay:

Just a more complex crusade propaganda.
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Keltoi
09-20-2006, 03:18 AM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
Oyeah, it is the west noble duty to invade country, physically, politically to bring about democracy.

What was he other excuse in History :?

To civilize the barbarians. :okay:
I'm not sure what any of that had to do with the topic at hand.
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Skillganon
09-20-2006, 03:22 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
I'm not sure what any of that had to do with the topic at hand.
Neither do I see, what the middle east has to do it. One is proposing that the seeming reluctance of muslim to socialise in western social activities, has to do with evil radical in the middle east. That our goverment is championing to eradicate.

I rather think that the western can't co-exist with the world at large, and western people (mainly non-muslim) has a problem with socialising with muslim.
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Keltoi
09-20-2006, 03:28 AM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
Neither do I see, what the middle east has to do it. One is proposing that the seeming reluctance of muslim to socialise in western social activities, has to do with evil radical in the middle east. That our goverment is championing to eradicate.
To be honest, I don't really understand what you are trying to say. I will try to form a response. The Muslim experience in the West is greatly affected by the current political climate in the country they are inhabiting. The current political climate in the West is now dominated by the phenomenon of suicide terrorism and radicalism. This has obvious ramifications for how comfortable a Muslim will feel living in the West. While there isn't a war against Islam, there is a war against those who call themselves Muslims. This reality cannot be avoided.
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Skillganon
09-20-2006, 03:57 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
To be honest, I don't really understand what you are trying to say. I will try to form a response. The Muslim experience in the West is greatly affected by the current political climate in the country they are inhabiting. The current political climate in the West is now dominated by the phenomenon of suicide terrorism and radicalism. This has obvious ramifications for how comfortable a Muslim will feel living in the West. While there isn't a war against Islam, there is a war against those who call themselves Muslims. This reality cannot be avoided.
EDIT:

The muslim experience in the West is greatly affected by the current political climate in the country they are inhabiting. The current political climate in the East is now dominated by the phenomenon of constant bombing, invasion and western radicalism. This has obvious ramifications for how comfortable a Muslim will feel living in the West. While they say "their isn't a (so called) war against Islam", there is a war against the people (mainly Muslim) in the middle east. This reality cannot be avoided.

See what I mean?

We got enough radicals in the west, who sits in parliament and washington. The mass need to be herded, into stop thinking.

Muslim needs to stop feeling period, and accept the FACTS (which tends to make me scratch my head often), then they can feel more a ease.

The obviouse thing is the western public, are reluctant to accept muslim, unless they conform, and socialise to the way they are thinking.
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