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Arwa
05-30-2005, 06:16 PM
* The Creation of Adam - Part 1



Today’s lesson is entitled “The Creation of Adam (AS)”, however it seems that I will be talking about something else, namely, the submission, humility, surrender, and capitulation between the Hands of Allah (Exalted and Glorious). But, what is the relationship between these topics?




The prominent concept that comes into my mind whenever I talk about Adam’s creation (PBUH) is the submission to Allah (SWT). Hence, your heart must essentially feel—when you listen to the process of the creation of Adam (our father)(PBUH)—how weak and needy you are between the Hands of Allah (SWT), and that you have no other God but Him (SWT). So, let us start with how Adam (PBUH) was created.




You read in the Qur’an—in different Ayat (verses)—that Adam (PBUH) was created from “dust”, “clay”, “sticky clay”, “dried clay”, “dried clay of altered mud”, or “sounding clay like the clay of pottery”, then what is the conclusion, and from which material was Adam (PBUH) created? Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, “Verily, the likeness of ‘Isa (Jesus) before Allah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: “Be!” - and he was.” (TMQ, Al Imran: 59) (1).





But look at another Ayah, “(Remember) when your Lord said to the angels: 'Truly I am going to create man from clay'.” (Surat Saad: 71), then He added in another Ayah, “Verily, We created them of a sticky clay.” (TMQ, As Saffat: 11).





What does all this mean? Was he created from dust or clay? Allah (Exalted and Glorious) also says what can be translated as, “And indeed, We created man from dried (sounding) clay of altered mud.” (Surat Al Hijr: 26), then He said in another Ayah what can be translated as, “He created man (Adam) from sounding clay like the clay of pottery.” (TMQ, Ar-Rahman: 14).





Actually, Adam (PBUH) was created from all these materials through the various stages of the process of his creation. Each stage led to the next one, until his creation was completed. So now, let us start step by step to point out why Allah (SWT) made him undergo all these stages. Adam (PBUH) passed through six stages in the course of his creation, so let us benefit from this presentation, for Allah (SWT) coveys a message to us, and teaches us a lesson in each stage.




The First Stage: Dust




The Prophet (PBUH) said, “Allah created Adam from a handful of dust taken from different lands, so the children of Adam have been created according to the composition of the land. Therefore, from mankind we have white, red, black and yellow ones; we have good and evil, ease and sorrow, and what comes in between them.” (Sahih Bukhari and At-Tirmidhi), and in another narration, he (PBUH) said “Allah the Almighty sent Gabriel onto the earth to get Him a handful of dust taken from different lands. Therefore, the children of Adam have been created according to the composition of the land.” What does this mean? The characteristics of people are different because they were created from various heaps of dust taken from all over the world; so there are red, white, and black people, and there are easy and hard-hearted, evil and good persons. This Hadith shows us that our beginning was from a heap of dust, taken from different parts of the earth. That is the reason men have different colors. People have different colors—red, black, white, yellow—like the different colors of dust, and different natures, too. A good person, who comes close to Allah (SWT), once he hears the message, is like good fertile ground. An evil person who insists on wickedness and returns to it, even if you preach to him and help him several times, is like evil land. A hardhearted person who can never feel tenderness is like hard land that is full of thorns, and a kind person whom you love easily is like smooth land.




So, we want to look back at our origin, and realize that we were nothing. We were made of dust, so Glory be to Allah who made the dust speak, think, sail on the water, go up to the sky, and explore space. Glory be to Allah who turned the dust into human beings who move on the earth.




The concept I want to emphasize is how can you--Son of Adam--disobey Allah (SWT)? How can the dust say ‘No’ to the orders of Allah? How can you commit adultery, drink wine, or refuse to pray the prayers at their prescribed times, which is the most desirable work to Allah (SWT)? How can this heap of dust, which is turned into a human being, refuse to follow the orders of Allah (SWT)? Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, “Be cursed (the disbelieving) man! How ungrateful he is! From what thing did He create him? From Nutfah (male and female fluids) He created him and then set him in due proportion. Then He makes the Path easy for him. Then He causes him to die and puts him in his grave. Then when it is His Will, He will resurrect him (again).” (TMQ, ‘Abasa: 17-22). Don't you feel how weak and needy you are? Actually, the aim of this lesson is to learn submission, as if I am teaching you a lesson about the value of submission to Allah (SWT); not about the stories of the prophets. This is the understanding I want you to get from it.


My brothers, we were first created from dust. Listen to the Divine Hadith (Hadith Qudsi). Allah (SWT) said, “The one who humbles himself to Me like this (and the Prophet (PBUH) lowered the palm of his hand till it reached the floor), I would elevate him as far as this (and the prophet (PBUH) kept raising his hand so high towards the sky)”.




This was about our creation from dust. How needy and weak we are! Adam (PBUH) was called ‘Adam’ because he was created from the ‘Adeem’ (the dust) of the earth. This is to make us always related to the dust, and to remember that we are from dust whenever Allah (SWT) says, “O’ sons of Adam”. We are the descendents of Adam, who is from dust. This is the first stage of our creation.




Now, do you still insist on your disobedience to the orders of Allah (SWT), even after you knew that you are from dust, and that you are made to speak by the orders of Allah (SWT)?




The Second Stage: the Clay




The dust was soaked with water, so it became clay. (See how very poor we are!). This is the meaning of what Allah (SWT) says to the Angels and can be translated as, “(Remember) when your Lord said to the angels: “Truly I am going to create man from clay”. (TMQ, Saad: 71). Why did Allah (SWT) choose these two elements (dust and water) to start Adam’s creation (PBUH)? Why did He not choose iron, for example? This is not only to humble ourselves before Allah (SWT), but it has another beautiful meaning.




The main function of dust and water is purification, cleanliness, and bathing. There is no purification without water. The Prophet (PBUH) said, “The earth has been made for me a place for praying and a thing to perform Tayammum (dry ablution with dust, when water is not available).” As if Allah (SWT) wants to say to us that our origin is pure and clean, since we are created of the purest elements on the earth. So, be aware of contaminating this purity. For those people who watch forbidden and disgraceful satellite channels, or those who visit immoral sites on the internet, why do you pollute this purity inside you? By doing this, a person imagines that all women and men are wicked, and that the origin of mankind is filth. This is absolutely wrong. We are created from dust and water to realize that we are pure and clean.




Compare these meanings with the meanings of the Western civilization, which perceives Man as a ‘bad insect’. There is an international Western scholar who said, “Man is a malignant insect, which lives among the garbage of life.” Can you imagine that he said such a thing, although he is an international scholar? We must not defile the purity from which we were made.

The one who used to commit adultery contaminates the most virtuous thing in himself. The one who abuses drugs defiles the purest soul inside him. Just like a person who throws junk in the water and pollutes it, would you drink it? Man is the one who defiles himself, and pollutes the dust and the water from which he was created, so he makes people hate to deal with him and with the pure things he was created from. I hope that this meaning can convey my message to you.

I hope that everyone can realize the seriousness of becoming used to committing adultery and other similar sins. The girl who boldly allows a man to enjoy her body—even with a kiss—defiles the purity from which she was created. Take care of your origins; for your origins are composed of the most pure elements.

The dust was soaked with water, and then turned into clay.




The Third Stage: Sticky Clay




The clay started to be more compact, until it became sticky, adhesive, and thick. Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, “Verily, We created them of sticky clay.” (TMQ, As-Saffat: 11). What is the meaning of “sticky”? It means that it is an adhesive mixture of clay that is easy to be shaped. What is the value of this stage? It is to show the meaning that you have strength and cohesion in your creation. Sometimes, one may feel that he is alone, lost, and has no aim in life. You are created from “sticky clay”, so do not scatter yourself. The meaning of stickiness is united. When a person is far from Allah (SWT), he becomes lost and scattered. Without Allah, your heart becomes scattered, dispersed, and alone. You must get exhausted, because the entire universe goes in the direction of Allah (SWT), while you go in the opposite direction. The “sticky clay” basically means that you have cohesion and unity. Some people, who are away from Allah (SWT), feel that they are nothing, and that they have no existence as if they are mere air, while you are created from a mixture of sticky clay; you are not scattered. The clay clung together and became easy to be shaped.




The Forth Stage: molding and shaping




At this stage, Adam (PBUH) is now sticky clay, which is easy to be shaped. Then Allah (SWT) molded him with His Hands. There is no God, but Allah (SWT). Do you feel submission and humility to Allah (SWT)? Adam (PBUH) was molded by the Hands of Allah (SWT)! Then a question might be raised; what is the evidence for this? It is in what Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, “(Allah) said: “O Iblis (Satan)! What prevents you from prostrating yourself to one whom I have created with Both My Hands? Are you too proud (to fall prostrate to Adam) or are you one of the high exalted?”“ (TMQ, Saad: 75). Adam (PBUH) was created by the Hands of Allah (SWT). Do not ask how, and do not try to find either a resemblance or an embodiment of this action, but rather say, “There is nothing like Him.” The meaning itself that our father Adam (PBUH) was created by the Hands of Allah (SWT) is enough. Are you going to submit to Allah (SWT) or not?




The creatures, which are created with the noble Hands of Allah (SWT), must remain pure. Say to yourself what you would not say to Allah (SWT), who created our father with His Hands, “I am free, I will not wear a scarf, I will not pray, or I will not be kind to my parents since I am not convinced about this!”. Do you feel Allah’s (SWT) affection for you? This is the meaning; the one who creates something with his hands makes it as evidence of his love for this thing. Perceive your value to Allah (SWT); for we are dear to Allah (SWT). So how can we dare disobey Allah (SWT) after all this?




Listen to the Hadith Qudsi. Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, “O’ son of Adam, I created you with My Hands, and brought you up with My blessings, while you defy Me and disobey Me. If you repent afterwards, I will accept you. So where you can find a God like Me, the Most Merciful, the Most Forgiving.” Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, “And whatever of blessings and good things you have, it is from Allâh” (TMQ, An-Nahl: 53). We are created by the Hands of Allah (SWT).




The Fifth Stage: Drying the pottery clay




After these stages of creation (the dust was soaked with water and became clay, then the clay was compounded and became cohesive clay ready to be shaped, then Allah (SWT) molded it with His Hands, so it became a potter’s clay), the potter’s clay was left to dry, so its color was changed because of the influence of the winds. Look at our origin, how weak it was! How dare we to disobey Allah (SWT)? When the clay was wet, then it was exposed to the winds, its color changed and became like “dried clay of altered mud”. What is “dried clay of altered mud”? It is a kind of clay, the color of which changed to a lighter shade of black as a result of leaving it for some time to dry. Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, “And indeed, We created man from dried (sounding) clay of altered mud.” (TMQ, Al Hijr: 26). This emphasizes our weakness before Allah (SWT).




The Sixth Stage: Sounding Clay




When the clay dried, it became hollow; it had an internal cavity (the cavity of the mouth). Therefore, it became like the clay of pottery, which is hollow, dry clay that makes a sound when it is tapped. Thus, Adam (PBUH) was a figure of dry clay with an internal cavity for the soul to enter through it. Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, “He created man (Adam) from sounding clay like the clay of pottery” (TMQ, Ar-Rahman: 14). Did I not tell you that today’s lesson is called humility, resignation, and submission to Allah (SWT)?




Iblis (Satan) started to turn this body around and to hit it; then he found that it made a sound. Hence, there is no contradiction between the Ayat, for there are six stages of Adam’s (PBUH) creation: dust, clay, sticky clay, clay in the shape of a human being, dried clay of altered mud, and then sounding clay like the clay of pottery. By that time, Adam (PBUH) was a huge figure. He was left like that, while the soul had not yet been breathed into him. Why did Adam’s (PBUH) creation pass through all these stages? Was Allah (SWT) not able to say to it, ““Be!” - and it is.” (TMQ, Al Baqara: 117)? I think that the answer is easy. It is to realize how weak you are and how powerful Allah (SWT) is, to know your need for Him, and to feel that you are nothing without Him.




Did you see the miracle, which made the dust move [or come alive]? Allah (SWT) is able to do anything.




This leads us to the next stage; for Adam (PBUH), by that time, was a huge figure made of hollow clay, while the soul had not been breathed into him yet. How long did he remain a body without a soul? People said a period of time. Some Hadith narrated by Al-Tabarany on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas inform us that he remained like this for 40 days. Why did he remain like this? To emphasize your weakness.




The Prophet (PBUH) said (Hadith narrated by Imam Muslim), “When Allah molded Adam, He left him in Paradise for sometime. Our original home is Paradise, since our father was created there. We have nothing to do with this world.” When I ask you about your homeland, you tell me it is Al-Mansoura, but I tell you that your homeland is your father’s homeland. The original homeland of your father is Paradise. You are a stranger in this world, and you came to this world for a prescribed mission, which is to prove that you are a servant of Allah, and you yearn to return to your original homeland. Adam was created in Paradise, although the dust he was created from was from the earth. The first things he saw were the blessings and the fruits of Paradise. I wonder that there are some people who never ask Allah to grant them Paradise throughout their lifetimes. I wonder about young boys and girls in this world who do not put Paradise as their most important goal in life. “When Allah (SWT) shaped Adam (PBUH) in Paradise, He left him there for sometime, then He made Iblis go around him and examine him. When Iblis saw that Adam (PBUH) was hollow, he realized that he cannot resist temptation, and that he can deceive him.” (Hadith narrated by Muslim)




I present this Hadith to you because Satan tries to examine every one of us. He looked at Adam (PBUH) examined him, and thought about how to enter his body when he was hollow, until he realized that his point of weakness is that he cannot control himself in the face of temptation. Satan examines every one of us, and he makes you love your point of weakness. He can make you blind to your point of weakness for twenty years, so you may repeat the same mistake for twenty years without noticing this, because he has examined you and knows your weakest point. This point of weakness has only one solution mentioned in the Qur’an. Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, “Certainly, you shall have no authority over My slaves…” (TMQ, Al Hijr: 42). Satan turns around you (as he did with your father [Adam]) trying to determine your point of weakness, for he actually knows the weakest point in every one of us. For example, someone may have his point of weakness in his friends, who deceive him, or in some one who introduces him to forbidden things. The only solution is to seek refuge and help from Allah (SWT), to come close to Allah (SWT), and to ask Him to save you from the deeds of Satan.


Adam (PBUH) remained in this stage for long period of time (40 years or 40 days). This is what is meant by what Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, “Has there not been over man a period of time, when he was not a thing worth mentioning?” (TMQ, Al-Insân: 1). Allah (SWT) directs a question to us, have we ever been something worthless, or was it Man who originated the universe? The answer to the first part is, Yes, Allah, we have been worthless for a period of time.




As I told you, Adam (PBUH) was a huge figure made of hollow clay, and was left in Paradise. Now, a great thing will happen. I would like you to try to imagine this while I am telling it to you. It is the greatest thing Allah (SWT) did; it is breathing the soul into Adam’s body (PBUH). Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, “So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him.” (TMQ, Saad: 72).





My brothers and sisters, do we notice this breath inside us? You have a Heavenly breath inside you. You were created from two pure elements; dust and water, then Allah (SWT) did not only mold you with His own Hands; but He also breathed His soul into you. In this Ayah, there are three manifestations of honor for Man. The first one is “fashioned him”, which means that Allah (SWT) formed Adam (PBUH) in the most noble shape. The second is that Allah (SWT) breathed His soul into Adam (PBUH), and the third one is that all the angels prostrated to him. Do you want a better evaluation than this? Do you believe that Allah (SWT) likes this creature? Do you still not believe that you are noble and dear to Allah (SWT)? How can He be generous to you to this great extent, while you still do not want to love Him and do not yearn for Him? How can you defile this pure breath inside you? It is a breath from Allah (SWT). Of course, it is a formless breath, and we know nothing about it, and we do not ask about it, but we, rather, leave its knowledge to Allah (SWT). It is a Divine breath from Allah (SWT). You have purity inside you, but can you imagine its value when you contaminate it? How dare you hurt this pure breath by taking drugs or smoking cigarettes? How can some youth dare to insult each other, how can you eat bad or forbidden things, how can you earn money by unlawful means? How did you not respect this great breath?




You are noble and dear to Allah (SWT). I will tell you some Hadith Qudsi, in which Allah (SWT) shows His affection for you, and His desire that you should be close to Him. I will narrate to you some of them to stir you.




Allah (SWT) said in Hadith Qudsi, “I, mankind, and Jinn are in an odd situation; I create, and they worship others. I give and they thank others. My blessings go down to them and their evils come up to Me. I kindly offer them My mercy despite that I am in no need of them. They are fighting Me with sins while they are in pitiable need of Me. Those who are praising Me, are My servants. So, whoever wants to be one of My servants just celebrate My praises. Those who obey Me, are those whom I love. And those who disobey Me, I never exclude them from My Mercy. If they repent, I grant them My love, and if they refuse to repent, I will cure their hearts by afflictions until they are purified from defects. The good deed in My accounts equals ten and more, and the evil deed in My account equals one and I forgive. I swear with My Glory and Honor, if they ask for forgiveness I'll forgive them. Whoever repents and comes to Me, I will receive him though he is far away. And whoever turns back, I will call him closely telling him, ‘O’ My slave where are you going? Do you have any other God?’”





Allah (SWT) inspired Dawud (David), “O’ Dawud, if the reluctant persons would know My yearning for their return, My desire for their repentance, and my wish for forgiving them; they would ache for Me. O’ Dawud, [if] this is my desire for the reluctant persons, then what about My affection for the willing ones?” Look to His affection for us, his generosity, and his longing for us!
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Arwa
05-30-2005, 06:17 PM
* The Creation of Adam - Part 2

Look at the following Hadith Qudsi, Allah the Almighty says, “O My servant, I brought you from nothingness to existence, I endowed you with hearing, seeing, mind and heart. O My servant, I hide your sins in front of the other creatures, and you do not fear Me. O My servant, I remember you, and you forget Me. O My servant, I feel ashamed for you, but you do not feel ashamed before Me. Who is but more bounteous than Me? Who knocked at My door, and I did not open? Who asked Me, and I did not give him? Am I miser so My slave is so miserly to Me?”

In another sublime Hadith Qudsi Allah the Almighty says, “O My servants, all of you are hungry except for those I have fed, so seek food from Me and I shall feed you. O My servants, all of you are naked except for those I have clothed, so seek clothing from Me and I shall clothe you. O My servants, all of you are astray except for those I have guided, so seek guidance from Me and I shall guide you. O My servants you sin by night and by day, and I forgive all sins, so seek forgiveness from Me and I shall forgive you. O My servants, you cannot seek to harm Me, and you cannot seek to benefit Me. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you, to be as pious as the most pious heart of any one of you, that would not increase My kingdom in anything. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you as wicked as the most wicked heart of any one of you, that would not decrease My kingdom in anything. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you, to rise up in one place and make a request of Me, and were I to give everyone what he requested, that would not decrease what I have, anymore than a needle decreases the water in the sea if put into it. My servants, it is but your deeds that I count up for you and then recompense you for, so let him who finds good, praise Allah and let him who finds other than that, blame no one but himself.”

Dear brothers and sisters, this is our God (SWT). Do you know how He created you? Here is a very important point concerning our creation that is worthy of reflection. Did you look at the other intelligent creatures and what substances they were created from? They were created from one substance. The angels were created from light: one substance. The jinn were created from one substance, too. The only intelligent creature who was created from two substances is man. Angels and jinn were created of one substance in order to follow one road without having any instincts. Man is the only one who was created of two substances to have such conflicting instincts. What are these two substances? They are: (1) an external covering (try to perceive this meaning) called the body, (2) the soul where the body has a hallowing to let the soul go into. The external covering is made of earth’s dust. The soul is created from the kingdom of the heavens. Therefore, we have part from the earth and part from heaven’s kingdom; we were created of both. One part of you always pushes you downwards—called the body. The second part tries to elevate you upward to the purity of heavens—called the soul. Why? Because the body is from earth and the soul is from heavens. Each of them needs a special kind of nourishment. Thus, you have to be fed on two kinds of food.

The body’s sustenance is to eat, drink, marry, enjoy your time, practice sports, etc. While the soul’s food is to be near to Allah (SWT), to adhere to As-Salat (prayer), As-Siyam (fasting), and Tasbeeh (glorifying Allah), and to be attached to Allah.

In that way Allah (SWT) has created us: a body from the outside and a soul from the inside. We are the ones who imprisoned our souls. The soul complains because the Qur’an does not have access to come into it. Do you know, for example, why two men standing beside each other in As-Salat behind the same Imam and hearing the same verses have a difference as that between the heaven and earth between their Salat? One of them has his soul in the heavens and the other has his soul on earth. Why? It is because the second neglected his soul and only thought about his body. Therefore, the soul could no longer be moved. It wishes to come closer to Allah (SWT) for a moment. When you read this lecture you seize a mere second of closeness to Allah (SWT), so you start to breathe in and your soul starts to become alive. Then, you succeed it with `Umrah (lesser pilgrimage) to elevate your soul. Ramadan follows, and you adhere to As-Salat. Your soul, this way, elevates more and more. The result is that your soul becomes attached to Allah.

When the soul starts to refresh, you might leave it for a month or a week. You may say to yourself, “I am devout and attend a religious lecture, for example, once a week”. Yet, during the rest of the week you have no relation to religion. Surely, this must not be.

Look at how Allah (SWT) speaks about the risk of the people who live only for their bodies and never for their souls in the Qur’an, “The mutual rivalry for piling up the good things of this world..” (TMQ, 102:1) (1) (i.e. The food of your bodies: eating, drinking, enjoying life, playing…) “..diverts you (from the more serious things)” (TMQ, 102:1). The prohibition in this verse is not from piling up good things but is from being diverted by feeding the body and from forgetting to feed the soul. Allah (SWT) reminds us of the end, “…until you visit the grave” (TMQ, 102:2); the end will come when we go to the grave. O people! You are diverted by your bodies and have forgotten your souls. Then the Surah warns, “But nay, you soon shall know (the reality). Again, you soon shall know! Nay, were you to know with certainty of mind, (you would beware!) You shall certainly see Hell-fire! Again, you shall see it with certainty of sight! Then, shall you be questioned that Day about the joy (you indulged in!)” (TMQ, 102:3-8); i.e. the indulgence of the body.

What is the solution?

The solution is to balance between the soul and the body. Did not you eat and drink? Then, go and pray Qiyyam Al-layl (night prayer). Did not you chat with your friend for two hours over the phone? Then, recite Dhikr (remembrance) of Allah for ten minutes. As you feed your body, you should feed your soul. Do not you travel every year and spend money to enjoy your summer vacation? Why not go to `Umrah? If you went with your friends on a picnic, go and attend a religious lecture.

You must have a balance between the soul and the body. I want to follow with you step by step. However, I see that the priority at the beginning is not to have such balance; it is to give preference to the soul over the body. Thus, the soul is directed to Allah (SWT); consequently, the body becomes satisfied too. I wish that you would always work towards keeping the balance between the body and the soul. As we satisfy our bodies, we must satisfy our souls. For example, you can say, “After watching a serial on the T.V. and laughing at it, I need now to recite Qur’an for at least ten minutes.” This is because the body is the one who laughed not the soul. I wish we would all understand this concept and know that the balance mentioned in Surat At-Takathur (piling up of worldly things) is the one we need.

Now let us continue the story of Adam’s creation (PBUH). Once Adam (PBUH) was created, and once the soul entered the head, Adam (PBUH) sneezed. The angels said to him, “Say Al-Hamdu lillah (praise be to Allah)”. He said so. Allah the Almighty said, “Your God bestowed His mercy upon you”. Thus, the first thing Adam (PBUH) heard of Allah (SWT) was His mercy. I swear by Allah (SWT), dear brothers and sisters that once you behave seriously with Allah (SWT) you will taste His mercy. Instead of having your parents upset with you, try to show them love and try to please them. Allah (SWT) will make them pleased with you. In the same manner, when you face any situation with your boss at work, once you become near to Allah (SWT), you will have it solved.

Everything changes and you will find that it is from Allah’s Mercy upon us that it does. Dear brothers and sisters, Allah (SWT) is Merciful with us. He wants to make us the people of His Paradise because He created us with His hand; we are of His dearest creatures.

Imagine that the first word by which the universe met Adam (PBUH) was “Your God bestowed His mercy upon you.” (Narrated by At-Tirmithi). From here came the Sunnah of saying, “May Allah have mercy upon you” to the one who sneezes. When you sneeze, you say “Al-Hamdu lillah”. Then, the one beside you replies, “May Allah have mercy upon you”. You, then, reply, “May Allah guide you and reconcile your mind”. Look nowadays, when somebody sneezes, you say, “May Allah have mercy upon you.” He answers: “Merci!”

The next question is: On which day was the soul breathed into him?

One may ask: Can you determine the day, the hour, and the minute? The answer is yes because we have Authentic Hadith.

The Prophet (PBUH) said, “The best of days on which the sun rises is Friday. In it Adam was created, in it he was made to enter Paradise, in it he was expelled from it, in it he was forgiven, in it he died, and in it the Hour occurs.” (Narrated by Muslim and Abu-Dawud)

I will show you the importance of Friday, but before that we have another question, Can you determine the hour at which Adam (PBUH) was created? The Prophet (PBUH) said, “Adam was created on Friday afternoon. He was the last of the creatures (created after all creatures were created) at the last hour of Friday between afternoon and night”. One may say, “What is the importance of knowing the time and the day of Adam’s creation?” I reply there are two points of importance:

First: the importance and the value of Friday

I want to ask you how many of you observe the Sunnah on Friday? It is an honorable day that has special Sunnahs that our Prophet (PBUH) ordered us to follow. They are called Friday’s Sunnahs;

1. Taking a bath on Friday is compulsory for every adult man.
2. Wearing perfume, for men.
3. Cleaning one’s teeth using siwaq (tooth-stick) or toothbrush.
4. Wearing clean clothes.
5. Going early to the mosque. One becomes sad nowadays to see some people going to the mosque after the Imam takes his seat on the pulpit.
6. Reciting Surat Al-Kahf as Allah’s messenger (PBUH) ordered us.

These are the Sunnahs of Salatul Jumu`ah (Friday prayer).

One Friday Ibn Mas`ud (May Allah be pleased with him) entered the mosque and found that two men had arrived earlier than him. He became so sad and hit his leg with his hand saying, “O Ibn Mas`ud! You became the third of the three.” When he reached the peak of sadness and regret, he said, “The third of the three is not so far from Allah”. Compare this to what happens these days and to the people who come late. Thus, we can realize how special Friday is.

Second: Adam was created in the afternoon

The Prophet (PBUH) says: “There is an hour (opportune time) on Friday and if a Muslim catches it while praying and asks something from Allah, then Allah will definitely meet his demand.” (An-Nawawi, 752/2). The Dua‘a (supplication) at this hour is surely accepted, as Allah will give to whoever supplicates at this hour.

Most of the scholars say that the last hour before the sunset is that opportune one. Why? Because Allah (SWT) created Adam (PBUH) in this hour. Allah accepts our Dua’a’ to Him In order to remind us that we are dear to Him and to remind us of the value of this day and this hour when the dust was formed to be a human being.

Another question arises: what was Adam’s shape when he was created?

The Prophet (PBUH) said in a Hadith narrated by Bukhari, “Allah created Adam in his same shape, making him 60 cubits tall,” (Can you imagine?), the Prophet (PBUH) said, “Any person who will enter Paradise will resemble Adam (in appearance and figure). People have been decreasing in stature since Adam's creation.” (Sahih Bukhari, 6227). In this Hadith there are three important points.

Can you imagine how tall Adam (PBUH) was? He was similar to a five-story building, for example. Can you imagine that you will enter Paradise with the same height? Why are the creatures getting shorter? Why didn’t we stay at our father’s height? Do you believe that this is because of Allah’s (SWT) Mercy upon us?

Imagine after we reached this technology, rockets, and widespread science, destruction that will likely destroy the earth due to technology and destructive weapons, and our increasing sins. Imagine that we are giants! What could happen? Because of Allah’s Mercy, when we gain more knowledge, our size becomes smaller in order not to transgress (too far).

Also, the Hadith imparted a very serious matter. It says Allah (SWT) created Adam (PBUH) in his (Adam’s) same shape. What does this mean? It means that he was in the same shape when he descended to earth as he was created in Paradise. Our Prophet (PBUH) wanted to show us that Adam descended to earth having the same shape he was created with. Why did the Prophet (PBUH) tell us this?

When I was researching this point in the Hadith, I found old scholars saying that they do not know why the Prophet (PBUH) told us this—that Adam (PBUH) descended to earth having the same shape he was created with. They commented that the matter might hold a wisdom that will be known later. Then, Darwin came and said that the origin of man was the monkey. The Hadith of the Prophet (PBUH) was told 1400 years ago and he said that Adam (PBUH) was created and descended to earth having the same shape. Is not this an evidence of prophecy? Allah’s Peace and Blessings be upon you Mohammad.

Now you have the evidence, so you do not believe in what Darwin said because our Prophet (PBUH) told us that Adam (PBUH) descended to earth having the same shape he was created with in Paradise. Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, “Nor does he (Mohammad) speak of (his own) desire” (TMQ, 53:3).

Then, Allah (SWT) said to Adam (PBUH) once he created him, "Go and greet that group of angels, and listen to their reply, for it will be your greeting (salutation) and the greeting (salutations) of your offspring." So, Adam (PBUH) went and said (to the angels), As-Salamu `Alaikoum (i.e. Peace be upon you). The angels said, "As-Salamu `Alayeka wa Rahmatu Allah wa Barakatuh" (i.e. Allah’s Peace and Mercy and Blessings be upon you). Thus, this became our greeting and not what is currently used from Hi and bye. Sometimes I receive a question about religion from a young person and then he ends his speech with “bye” or “Merci”! This must not be.

This Hadith teaches us a very good thing. What did Adam (PBUH) say to the angels upon greeting them? “As-Salamu `Alaykum.” They replied, "As-Salamu `Alayeka wa Rahmatu Allah wa Barakatuh". Therefore, what was Adam’s language? It was Arabic. None of the old scholars emphasized it. Yet, I believe it is a point of view. The words of the Hadith are clear, and I built my opinion on it. This is not strange, and I am not exaggerating in my love for the Arabic language. Also, I believe that this view is accepted because the language of the people in Paradise will be Arabic, and Adam’s origin (PBUH) was in Paradise. Therefore, it is probable that his language was Arabic.

The third point in this Hadith is the fact that the first dealing between Adam (PBUH) and others starts with “Peace” and the first word he said to introduce himself to others was “Peace”. The Prophet (PBUH) said, “You will not enter Paradise until you have faith, and you will not have faith until you love one another. May I direct you to a way by which you will love one another. Spread greetings and salutations among yourselves. Spread the practice of saying: “As-Salamu `Alaykum” among yourselves.”

Now the soul was breathed into Adam (PBUH), and he greeted the angels and knew his greeting.

The thing we will end with is that Allah (SWT) stroked Adam’s back so his progeny (you and me) until the Day of Judgment were issued from it. The Prophet (PBUH) said as narrated by At-Tirmidhi, “When Allah created Adam He stroked his back and issued every progeny of Adam that will be created until the Day of Judgment.” Why? Modern science proved that man’s fluid originates from his backbones. Therefore, from Adam’s back (PBUH) every progeny of his descendants until the Day of Judgment came out by one stroke on his back. Also the verses of the Qur’an shows us what can be translated as, “When your Lord took the progeny of Bani Adam from their backs and made them testify against themselves. 'Am I not your Lord?' They said, 'Yes, we bear witness’ Lest you should say on the Day of Rising, 'We were heedless of that'.” (TMQ, 7:172). We came to this world to witness against ourselves; Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, “Am I not your Lord?” and we said, “Yes”. This is so that no one can come on the Day of Judgment and say it did not happen.

Surely, at this moment you will ask yourself a question: I cannot remember anything of this, so will I be judged for something that I cannot remember? How can I say that it did not happen because the Qur’an says it? I cannot remember.

The meaning here is that our standing and bearing witness are those events which formed the true and instinctive nature within us. The true nature inside you is that which has made you believe that you have one God who created you; it developed when you stood at this assembly. It is as if Allah (SWT) wanted to embed the true nature inside us through this tangible scene. You cannot remember it, but there is evidence that it happened; it is your true nature that invites you to Allah (SWT); that makes you resist sins. A proof for this is that there were Muslims who lived for 70 years in atheism in the Russian Republics, and children were brought up on the fact that there is no God. Yet, once the Soviet Union fell, the first thing they called for was that they need religion. From where did they get the need for religion? It came from the first true nature that was put in them, that of knowing Allah’s existence and the necessity of worshipping Him. It seems as if I am telling you about the Hadith which states, “Every one is born to his true nature”. This true nature always calls you to Allah.

Dear brothers and sisters, do you see how your true nature is wholesome? Formerly I said that Allah’s (SWT) noble hands created you; so you shouldn’t commit sins. Also I told you that your origin is dust and water; two pure elements, so do not pollute them. Moreover, you contain Allah’s (SWT) breath; so do not defile it. Again, I reiterate to you that inside you there is a wholesome true nature that is related to the time we stood before Allah when He issued us forth from Adam’s back (PBUH). Thus, we must not defile our form [body and soul]. We must not defile it or make it deteriorate by committing sins. This true nature deteriorates when a girl [or boy] smokes a water pipe (shishah)—besides that, it is forbidden. Also the true nature deteriorates when one sees unpleasant scenes on the Internet or the T.V. This true nature deteriorates through forbidden obscene talk between a girl and a boy on the phone at midnight after their parents go to sleep. This true nature deteriorates when a girl betrays her Mom and Dad by having a relationship with a boy behind their backs. It also deteriorates when two biological brothers dispute with each other and stop talking to each other for months. This true nature deteriorates when a young man shouts at his father or mother, or deteriorates inside a man who has not prostrated before Allah (PBUH) once for a week or two, a month or two.

Please, brothers and sisters do not let your true nature deteriorate.

Here is a Hadith of our Prophet (PBUH) (narrated by Muslim and Imam Ahmad), “Allah would say to a man who will go to the hell on the Day of Judgment: ‘Would you like to pay as ransom all your worldly riches?’ He would say: ‘Yes!’ Allah would say to him: ‘When you were in the loins of Adam, I demanded from you something easier than this that you should not associate anything with Me (the true nature) but you defied and attributed divinity (to others besides Me)’”.

This is what happened at Adam’s creation.
The next time will be about the prostration of the angels, why Allah (SWT) ordered them to prostrate to Adam (PBUH), what are the reasons behind Allah’s (SWT) using the word vicegerent, the reasons that stopped Iblis from prostrating to Adam (PBUH), how Hawa’ (Eve) was created, and why she was called Hawa’. This will come in the next lecture, Insha’ Allah (God willing).
Reply

Arwa
05-30-2005, 06:18 PM
* The Creation of Adam - Part 3


We stopped last time at the prostration of all the angels to Adam (AS) except Shaytan who refused to prostrate.

Before we start there are some questions:

Is Shaytan a jinn or an angel?
"And (remember) when We said to the angels: ‘Prostrate yourselves before Adam.’ And they prostrated except Iblîs (Satan)". (TMQ, 2:34) (1).


It might be thought that Shaytan is an angel, but this is not true. The scholars have all agreed on that Shaytan is not an angel. After the creation of earth, the jinn inhabited it [entirely] until the angels drove them away to the islands and seas. Some of the jinn were evil, shedding blood and killing, while others obeyed Allah (SWT). Shaytan was one of those obedient jinn, hence, the angels took him to Heaven where he worshipped Allah (SWT) and he was completely devoted to Him; Shaytan left no place in Heaven where he did not prostrate to Allah (SWT). (Isra’iliyat) (2). However, deep inside him there was something impure, which Allah (SWT) knew well but kept it for a reason that only He knows.

Shaytan is not an angel and this can be proven in the Holy Qur’an, in Surat Al-Kahf (The Cave) through an undisputed verse, that can be translated as, “And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves unto Adam." So they prostrated themselves except Iblis (Satan). He was one of the jinn; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord.” (TMQ, 18:50).


If Shaytan is a jinni, why was he ordered with the angels to prostrate?
Allah (SWT) ordered the angels and not the jinn, so why would Shaytan be punished for not prostrating? In fact, the order was directed to him. It is true that the order was given to the angels, but because he was in the company of the angels for a long time and he was living with them, Shaytan was also included [in this order].

When Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, "What prevents you from prostrating yourself to one whom I have created with Both My Hands" (TMQ, 38:75). Shaytan did not reply "O Allah! You did not command me". He rather replied, "I am better than he." Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, "What prevented you (O Iblis) that you did not prostrate yourself, when I commanded you?" (TMQ, 7:12), which proves that Allah (SWT) ordered him as well as He ordered the angels.

Sometimes Allah (SWT) calls the devil "Iblis" and sometimes “Satan” (shaytan). Is he called Iblis or Satan? Or are the two names the same?
His real name is Iblis but the origin of the word "devil" (shaytan) in the Arabic language is (shaytan) that means “deviate or stray from”. Iblis deviated from Allah's (SWT) path; he strayed far from Allah's (SWT) commands, from obeying Him, from repentance and from Paradise (Jannah). This is why he is called "Shaytan". For that reason, the devil is called "Iblis" and is described as the devil "Shaytan". Hence, beware of devilish traits and of going astray from Allah's (SWT) commands, because this might lead you to carry the traits and characteristics of Shaytan.

What is the difference between the word shayateen (devils, pl. of shaytan) and jinn?
Devils are the disobedient jinn: the disobedient, unbelieving, dissolute jinn are called shayateen. Therefore, every devil is a jinn but not every jinn is a devil.

Why did Shaytan/Iblis refuse to prostrate to Adam (PBUH)?
His point of view is mentioned in the Holy Qur’an, in Surat Al-A'raf (chapter of "The Heights"), can be translated as, "What prevented you (O Iblis) that you did not prostrate yourself, when I commanded you?" Iblis said: "I am better than him (Adam), You created me from fire, and him You created from clay." (Allah) said: "(O Iblis) get down from this (Paradise), it is not for you to be arrogant here. Get out, for you are of those humiliated and disgraced." (TMQ, 7:12-13). The reason that Allah (SWT) has mentioned is Pride or Arrogance. In the chapter of Sad, Allah—be He Exalted and Glorified—says what can be translated as, "(Allah) said: "O Iblis! What prevents you from prostrating yourself to one whom I have created with Both My Hands. Are you too proud (to fall prostrate to Adam) or are you one of the high exalted?" (Iblis) said: "I am better than he. You created me from fire, and You created him from clay." (TMQ, 38:75-76). Therefore, whenever you feel that you are excessively proud of yourself, beware of this devilish trait. Arrogance was the first sin committed since Adam's (PBUH) creation; paradise is forbidden for the Arrogant. Allah (SWT) says to Shaytan, the first creature committing that sin, what can be translated as, "get down from this (Paradise), it is not for you to be arrogant here" (TMQ, 7:13). The Prophet (PBUH) says, "He who has in his heart the weight of a mustard seed of pride shall not enter Paradise.” (Muslim)

Following are the types of Arrogance. Try to discern if your heart carries any type of these or not.

The first type of Arrogance is being unjust with people; holding them in contempt, and oppressing them. I am afraid that a person might treat a servant at home this way; the leader or manager might do that with his employees; or the youth with people who are less fortunate or less intelligent. Showing contempt for people and belittling their social level represents a kind of arrogance.

The second type of Arrogance is strutting around [or showing off]. For example, when a woman walks in a way that shows off her beauty, and the one who wears a suit and feels that he is better than everybody. I do not mean we should not wear suits. The Prophet (PBUH) says, "Allah is beautiful and admires beauty" (Muslim). Hence, you can wear whatever you like but do not show off and think that people are lower than you. The Prophet (PBUH) says, "A man strutted around, wearing his long robe, and admiring himself a lot, and Allah caused the earth to sink with him, thus such the man is in torture until the Day of Judgment” (Bukhari, Muslim)

The third type of Arrogance is refusing to accept any advice and refusing to get back to the right path even if you know the way to it. Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, "And when it is said to him, "Fear Allah", he is led by arrogance to (more) crime. So enough for him is Hell, and worst indeed is that place to rest!" (TMQ, 2:206).


The fourth type of Arrogance is the love of having people humiliated and making them submit. Some husbands treat their wives this way and humiliate them. The Prophet (PBUH) says that such people have their places in Hell.

The fifth type of Arrogance is to stop praying. If one says, "I want to pray but I cannot", this is the major proof of his Pride. Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, "And your Lord said: "Invoke Me, I will respond to your (invocation). Verily! Those who scorn My worship they will surely enter Hell in humiliation!" (TMQ, 40:60). The person who demands nothing from Allah (SWT), and who stays one week without raising his hands asking Allah (SWT) to grant him what he needs is proud and arrogant.

Let’s go back to Shaytan’s excessive pride, which led him to think ignorantly. He says, addressing Allah (SWT), what can be translated as, "I am not one to prostrate myself to man, whom You did create from sounding clay, from mud molded into shape.” (TMQ, 15:33). His point of view is that fire is stronger and higher in status than clay, so how is it possible that the stronger and higher prostrates to the weaker and the lower? His pride rendered him blind in front of the truth. The nature of fire is burning, while the nature of clay is goodness, blessing and feeding people. The nature of fire is violence and recklessness, while the nature of clay is firmness and stability. Although the fire has some benefits, there is evil inherent within. As for clay; it cannot bear evil since it is full of benefits. Can you see how Allah (SWT) has been so generous in our creation? Sometimes we do exactly as Shaytan did with regard to this point and we misunderstand while making comparisons. For example, we leave boys and girls to mix freely as they want, because if we separate them they will be repressed and they will miss each other. Sometimes we follow the Shaytan and start thinking that we can leave the boys and girls to have free relations with each other so they won’t have any suppression later on. This is the way we think sometimes, right? Nevertheless, you have to avoid this devilish thinking and realize the consequences. Notice what happened in the West, where lust is everywhere and open to everyone, until people started heading into perversions. Limiting the relationships between boys and girls to marriage helps to maintain the pure instinct, which in turn keeps the human desire burning after marriage rather than destroying it before marriage and corrupting man.

Back to Shaytan when he says what can be translated as, "You have created me" (TMQ, 38:76). Here he admitted Allah’s (SWT) creation. In another verse he swears by Allah’s (SWT) glory "by Your glory" as he admits Allah's (SWT) glory and in a third verse that can be translated as, "Give me then respite till the Day they (the dead) will be resurrected" (TMQ, 7:14). Thus, Shaytan did not deny that Allah (SWT) is the Creator but his problem was being disobedient (Allah (SWT) is our God, but has no right to say “do that” and “don’t do that”). He considered that obeying Allah (SWT) and His creation of us are two different issues; that Allah (SWT) has created us but we wander about in the world as we like. This is not true. Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, "Surely, His is the Creation and Commandment…" (TMQ, 7:54). Thus He who creates, orders as well. Beware of falling into that mistake of separating between creation and obedience. Another verse clarifies what can be translated as, "It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision". (TMQ, 33:36).

Islam is the name of our religion, which means submission to Allah (SWT) and to his orders. Being a Muslim means being submissive to Allah (SWT). Shaytan's problem is that he has not submitted to Allah (SWT), although he is fully aware of Allah’s (SWT) glory and that Allah (SWT) is the only Creator. Is any one suffering from such a problem? The problem is not in disobeying but the problem is in saying “No” to disobedience and rejecting sins.

Has Shaytan stopped at this extent? No, but he declared war on Adam (PBUH). Read Surat Al-Araf (chapter of “The Heights”) verses 11-13, and always remember that Shaytan is your enemy. “And surely, We created you (your father Adam) and then gave you shape (the noble shape of a human being); then We told the angels, "Prostrate yourselves to Adam", and they prostrated themselves, except Iblis (Satan), he refused to be of those who prostrated themselves. Allah) said: "What prevented you (O Iblis) that you did not prostrate yourself, when I commanded you?" Iblis said: "I am better than him (Adam), You created me from fire, and him You created from clay." (Allah) said: "(O Iblis) get down from this (Paradise), it is not for you to be arrogant here. Get out, for you are of those humiliated and disgraced." (TMQ, 7:11-13).

Also declare to Allah (SWT) that Shaytan is your archenemy. “Surely, Shaytan is an enemy to you, so take (treat) him as an enemy. He only invites his followers so that they may become the dwellers of the blazing Fire.” (TMQ, 35:6).

The Holy Qur’an displays Shaytan's point of view and gives him the chance to express it freely. But Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, "(O Iblis) get down from this (Paradise), it is not for you to be arrogant here. Get out, for you are of those humiliated and disgraced." (TMQ, 7:13) The word “humiliated” (saghereen) in the verse is derived from the word “the smallest” (as-ghar) in Arabic, which is the opposite of “the biggest” (akbar) [the root form of the word “arrogant” (takkabar)]. The verse conveys that anyone who behaves arrogantly on earth is doomed to be humiliated and disgraced by Allah (SWT). Thus, if you become proud, you will be humiliated and belittled and will be crushed by people's feet on the Day of Judgment.

The verse following these verses, can be translated as, "Give me then respite till the Day they (the dead) will be resurrected” (TMQ, 7:14), shows that he will stay alive until the Day of Judgment. This means that his enmity and hatred is directed to every human being, not only Adam (PBUH). Can you realize how much he hates the human race? He prayed to Allah (SWT) to keep him alive until the Resurrection Day. Allah (SWT) agreed and responded to his request, "You are of those given respite." (TMQ, 7:15). One of the generation following the Companions of the Prophet (PBUH) said, “Don't be deceived with your vices or defects. Allah has responded to the prayers of the most evil creature (Shaytan), so wouldn't He respond to yours and accept them?"

In the next verse, Shaytan says, what can be translated as, "(Iblis) said: "Because You have sent me astray, surely I will sit in wait against them (human beings) on Your Straight Path" (TMQ, 7:16). Do you perceive Shaytan’s rudeness in addressing Allah (SWT) when saying that Allah (SWT) has sent him astray? Allah forbid!

Some people do that; they say, “ What can I do? Allah did this to me! If Allah had rightly guided me, I would have been on the right way; I wanted to be good, but Allah has put me with the company bad friends, and so I got lost!” Beware of that impudence with Allah (SWT).

Shaytan says to Allah (SWT) that he won't go to those who always go nightclubs, but I will lie in wait for anyone who walks in Your path and I will spoil it, taking him away from that path. Thus, Shaytan saves all his efforts for the believers and does not care much about the disobedient. The more the number of believers’ increases, the more he becomes tired. Ibn al-‘Abbas said that someone came to him and told him that the Jews had claimed that Shaytan did not whisper evil to them during their prayers. Why would Shaytan whisper evil to them when their prayer is mainly false?

Hence, the more you go along the right path, the more Shaytan lurks there waiting for you. Such is the battle between you and Shaytan, and when it gets fiercer with the depth and power of your belief, he will gather his soldiers against you. Will you give up, get weak and lose the battle?

In the next verse that can be translated as, "Then I will come to them from before them and behind them, from their right and from their left, and You will not find most of them as thankful ones." (TMQ, 7:17). Shaytan mentions four directions (right-left-back-front) while originally there are 6 directions. He did not mention the direction where the person prostrates to Allah while praying (down below), and the direction that is opened for the prayers and set as an outlet for Allah’s (SWT) mercy to people (from above).

One of the most serious methods of misguidance that Shaytan uses is making us discontent with Allah's (SWT) grace. Allah (SWT) has warned us from this in the Holy Qur’an by saying what can be translated as, “You will not find most of them as thankful ones", because when we feel thankful to Allah (SWT) we will continue worshipping and loving Him. Shaytan tries hard to make us forget Allah's (SWT) blessings. Beware of forgetting Allah's (SWT) blessings and graces. Allah (SWT) has sent the whole chapter of Quraysh in the Holy Qur’an to show the danger of forgetting Allah's (SWT) grace: “(It is a great Grace from Allah) for the protection of the Quraysh, (We cause) the (Quraysh) caravans to set forth safely in winter and in summer, So let them worship (Allah) the Lord of this House (the Ka’ba in Makkah), (He) Who has fed them against hunger, and has made them safe from fear." (TMQ, 106:1-4).

Allah (SWT) says in Surat An-Nisaa (chapter “The Women”) what can be translated as, "Allah cursed him. And he [Shaytan] said: "I will take an appointed portion of your slaves." (TMQ, 4:118). Do you see how Shaytan speaks about us? He wants us to be lost. “Verily, I will mislead them, and surely, I will arouse in them false desires” (TMQ, 4:119). He whispers evil to the youth, and beautifies sins before their eyes, like secret marriage, disobeying parents, ignoring studies, as well as luring girls to take off their Hijab on their wedding days. “…and certainly, I will order them to slit the ears of cattle, and indeed I will order them to change the nature created by Allah." (TMQ, 4:119), like the modern hairstyles and dyes, and guys wearing earrings. “And whoever takes Shaytan as a Wali (protector or helper) instead of Allah, has surely suffered a manifest loss. He (Shaytan) makes promises to them, and arouses in them false desires; and Shaytan’s promises are nothing but deceptions. The dwelling of such (people) is Hell, and they will find no way of escape from it.” (TMQ, 4:119-121).


Allah (SWT) says in Surat Al-Israa (the Night Journey) what can be translated as: "And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves unto Adam." They prostrated themselves except Iblis. He said: "Shall I prostrate myself to one whom You created from clay?" (Iblis) said: "See this one whom You have honored above me, if You give me respite (keep me alive) to the Day of Resurrection, I will surely seize and mislead his offspring (by sending them astray) all but a few!" (TMQ, 17:61-62). Can you sense Shaytan’s hatred and rudeness? The Arabic word used (ahtanekan) and translated into “seize”, came from the word (hanak) that means mouth or jaw. This means that he will put the bridle around your mouth, exactly like putting the bridle around the jaw of an animal. Has he succeeded in putting the bridle around your mouth? Have you taken the bridle off? Read the Holy Qur’an with all your heart, "(Allah) said, "Go, and whosoever of them follows you, surely Hell will be the recompense of you (all) - an ample recompense." (TMQ, 17:63). Any one who accepts your bridle deserves to go to hell with the devils.

"And befool them gradually, those whom you can among them, with your voice; make assaults on them with your cavalry and your infantry; share with them wealth and children, and make promises to them." But Satan promises them nothing but deceit." (TMQ, 17:64). This verse shows the battle between Shaytan and us: he starts calling and asking his cavalry, soldiers from mankind or from jinn. It is the same voice he uses when he whispers suggestions of sexual excitement or for seeking ill-gotten gains in your ears. This is besides his sharing in your money by wasting it in useless things. As for youth, he urges them marry corrupted people and bring up devilish children. This is why you have to choose your spouse carefully so that Shaytan gets no share in your children.

Has Shaytan succeeded in carrying out his threats?
Reply

Arwa
05-30-2005, 06:18 PM


* The Creation of Adam - Part 4



Allah, be He Exalted and Glorified, says what can be translated as, “And indeed Iblîs (Satan’s name) did prove true his thought about them: and they followed him,” (TMQ, 34:20) (1). Iblîs thought that once he pointed to Man, he (man) would respond to him at altogether, “all except a group of true believers”. (TMQ, 34:20).
You will see Iblîs on the Day of Judgment in hell, leaning on a column to be seen by all the people in hell, while delivering the most famous speech in history. “And Shaytân (Satan) will say when the matter has been decided: "Verily, Allâh promised you a promise of truth. And I too promised you, but I betrayed you. I had no authority over you except that I called you, and you responded to me. So blame me not, but blame yourselves. I cannot help you, nor can you help me. I deny your former act in associating me (Satan) as a partner with Allâh (by obeying me in the worldly life). Verily, there is a painful torment for the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong-doers)’ ”. (TMQ, 14:22).
Have you felt his enmity towards you?
Shaytan has his soldiers, he makes promises [for things that we desire], and he shares in our wealth and families, and you have soldiers and fortresses more powerful than he does. You have these eleven different soldiers and fortifications:
1. Seeking refuge with Allah: Once you resort to Allah, seeking refuge from Shaytan. Allah says what can be translated as, “And if an evil whisper comes to you from Shaytân, then seek refuge with Allâh. Verily, He is All-Hearer, All-Knower” (TMQ, 7:200). Shaytan has no power over you since he is “the whisperer who withdraws”. Allah set “the whisperer” and "who withdraws" beside each other, because “the evil whisperer” “withdraws from his whispering to one's heart after one remembers Allah”.
2. Dhikr (remembrances) of Allah: By continuously glorifying Him, saying “Glory to Allah, the Greatest” (sobhaan Allah al-Atheem), and “Praise be to Allah” (Alhamdu lillah).
3. Reciting the Ma'audhatayn: (the last two surahs of the Qur’an: Al-Falaq and An-Naas) every morning and evening. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) recommends reading them to avoid evil.
4. Reciting Ayat-al-Kursi: (the Verse of the Chair/Throne). Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) says, “When you go to your bed, recite Ayat-al-Kursi, (2:255) for then there will be a guard from Allah who will protect you all night long, and Shaytan will not be able to come near you until dawn." (Bukhari) Recite it also after performing each prayer.
5. Reading Surat Al-Baqarah (The Cow): Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) says, “Shaytan cannot come near the house whose people read Surat Al-Baqarah (The Cow)”. (Muslim)
6. Saying “There is no God but Allah, He who has no partner, owns everything, and to Whom we are all thankful. Allah is capable of everything; has the power to create life and death.”: Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) says, “Whoever says this 100 times daily is saved from Shaytan”. (Bukhari)
7. Ablution (wudhu): Shaytan is created from fire, which is extinguished by water.
8. Lowering one's gaze: The gaze allows a wide entrance for Shaytan.
9. Seeking the company of dutiful Muslims: Shaytan is always with the loner.
10. Prayers (salat): Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) says, “If a man performs the Fajr (dawn) prayers and prostrates in worship, Shaytan says, “Woe to you! Man is ordered to prostrate and he did, hence his reward is Paradise. I was ordered to prostrate but I disobeyed, and my punishment is Hell”. (Sahih Muslim, 81)
11. Repentance (taubah): When Shaytan said to Allah, “I swear by Your Glory and Exaltedness to lure them”, Allah, be He Exalted and Glorified, replied what means, “I swear by My Glory and Exaltedness to forgive them as long as they ask My forgiveness”.
Have you awakened to the battle and perceived the soldiers and fortresses that Allah has granted you? You are stronger and much more powerful, so don't be afraid. Allah, be He Exalted and Glorified, says what means, “Will you then take him (Iblîs) and his offspring as protectors and helpers rather than Me while they are enemies to you? How evil is the exchange for the Zâlimûn (polytheists, and wrong-doers).” (TMQ, 18:50).
Shaytan was driven away from Paradise and it remained for Adam only. He lived alone, and so he felt lonely; he needed someone. Hawwa’ (Eve) was created from his rib while he was asleep. When he woke up, he found her beside him, he asked her:
- “Who are you?”
- “I am a woman”.
- “What's your name?”
- “Hawwa’”.
- “Why have you been created?”
- ”So that you may find repose in me”. (Isra’iliyat) (2).

Commenting on this:
• Why did she say “woman”?
Because she was created from “man”, so “woman” is part of “man”, and therefore the noun is derived from the noun “man”.

• Why was she called Hawwa’?
Because she was created from something alive (Hai in Arabic), i.e. Adam's rib.

• Why was she created while he was asleep?
So that he would not feel the pain of creation, which might cause some change in his heart toward her and prevent him from treating her tenderly.

Imam Al-Qurtubi in describing this point, “so that he would not feel the pain of her creation” says. “She was created while he was sleeping so that his heart would not change against her, because men are not dominated by emotions (affection, companionship, etc.). Hence, if he had felt the pain when she was created, he would have become annoyed with her as she had caused him pain.”

Can you imagine woman's pain while giving birth to her child? Emotions in woman dominate all other feelings, so her emotions increase with the increase of pain.
Can you appreciate the difference between man and woman?

The meaning of “to find repose in me” is to achieve reassurance and comfort on earth. Allah, be He Exalted and Glorified, says what means “And among His Signs is this, that He created for you wives from among yourselves, that you may find repose in them” (TMQ, 30:21). So Woman was created as a symbol for repose, comfort and reassurance on earth. “Feeling reassured” refers to feeling comfortable and safe in a settled place, without which man becomes lost. Whenever Allah mentions Adam and Hawwa’, He mentions “to find repose in her”. The woman is able to make her house like Hell or make it full of comfort and safety.

Khadijah (RA) was a real comfort to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), and she succeeded in achieving the target of her existence as a woman. Hence, when she died she deserved that moment when Jibril (AS) (Gabriel) descended from Heaven and told Prophet Muhammad (PBUH): "O Prophet of Allah! Give salutations to Khadija with Allah's peace. Tell her Allah heralds you with a palace made of mother-of-pearl". (Bukhari, Muslim)

Hawwa’ was created from a part of Adam. You may wonder: could she be created separately? Why was she created from Adam? Allah-be He Exalted and Glorified- says what means, "O mankind! Be dutiful to your Lord, Who created you from a single person (Adam), and from him (Adam) He created his wife…" (TMQ, 4:1). This is to make man feel that woman is part of him; therefore, Prophet Muhammad's (PBUH) last advice was, "Take good care of women". (Bukhari)

Note that Adam was created from earth’s dust while Hawwa’ was created from his rib. Each of them was created from the part he or she will deal with: Adam will deal with the earth, whether as a wrestler, a farmer or a fighter, and Hawwa’ will deal with children and husbands and motherhood. Thus, Allah, be He Exalted and Glorified, wanted to create everything from the origin of what it will deal with.

Furthermore, Hawwa’ was created from a crooked rib. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) says, "Take good care of women. Woman was created from a rib, and the most crooked part of a rib is its uppermost part. If you start to straighten it, it might be broken, and if you leave it, it keeps its crooked shape. Hence, take good care of women". (Bukhari)

Hawwa’ was created from Adam's left rib, which is crooked because the function of the left rib is to protect the heart from injury. Therefore, the heart is surrounded by a crooked rib that protects it. Being created from a crooked rib does not signify that she is bad in behavior. Emotion is the dominating dimension in women, and most of the time it dominates logic so that woman would be able to practice her tenderness and kindness. The crookedness of the rib is something natural that helps the woman to perform her job. Be careful not to tell her, "Don't be jealous or don't get worried." because this would be "breaking" her. Also, do not tell her, "don't think with your heart, think with your mind". Beware of breaking her heart, because this would be breaking her essence.

There is another meaning mentioned by Imam Al-Qurtubi:

- The Angels said to Adam: "Do you love her Adam?"
- Adam said: "Yes".
- The Angels asked Hawwa’, "Hawwa’, do you love him?"
- She answered, "No!", though deep in her heart she had more love for him than he had for her.

Al-Qurtubi comments on this saying, "If women were honest in expressing their feelings of love to their husbands, Hawwa’ would have been the first to do it".

In Surat Taha in the Holy Qur’an, Allah says what can be translated as, "And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves to Adam." They prostrated themselves (all) except Iblîs; he refused. Then We said: "O Adam! Verily, this is an enemy to you and to your wife. So let him not get you both out of Paradise, so that you will be distressed. Verily, you have (a promise from Us) that you will never be hungry therein nor naked. And you (will) suffer not from thirst therein nor from the sun's heat." (TMQ, 20:116-119).

This verse shows four blessings granted by Allah to Adam:
1- He would never feel hungry.
2- He would never feel thirsty.
3- He would never feel hot (the weather was not hot at all, as there was shade everywhere).
4- He would never be naked, as Allah would conceal his private parts.

When first created, Adam did not feel naked, and neither did Hawwa’. Man did not know nakedness from the first moment. Then, when was nakedness known? It was known when Adam went astray from Allah's path. The more humankind develops and strays far away from Allah’s path, the more nakedness increases.

In Surat Al-A'râf (the Heights) verse 19, Allah says what can be translated as, "And O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in Paradise, and eat thereof as you both wish, but approach not this tree otherwise you both will be of the Zâlimûn (unjust and wrong-doers)." (TMQ, 7:19).

This means, "Adam you can eat whatever you want, except the fruits of this specific tree". You can also notice that Allah, be He Exalted and Glorified, prepared Paradise for both Adam and Hawwa’, and not for Adam alone.

Then, how could Adam not consider this? You have many trees in your life, but you insist on one specific tree, and you don't want anything except this tree. You say to yourself, "I must drink alcohol." although there are many other drinks that are allowed to you.

Why did Adam seek from the forbidden tree? It was the same entrance that Shaytan uses with every one of us. Shaytan makes you see what you do not possess as more beautiful, more desirable and better than what you already have. This is a wicked trick played by Shaytan to make you go after the forbidden rather than the lawful and permissible, or at least he makes you hate what is permissible. For example, the husband whose wife is so beautiful and respectable and exerts all efforts to satisfy him; such a man might be attracted to another woman who might be less pretty than his wife. Shaytan makes her [the forbidden woman] more beautiful in the man's eyes despite the fact that he already has what is permitted.

Shaytan wants you to run after the forbidden or hate what you have in your hands so you will not thank Allah or be grateful to Him. Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, "and you will not find most of them as grateful". This is a strong method used by Satan to attack us. Adam's tree is repeated in several forms with all of us. Try to struggle against yourself even once, you will feel such a sweet feeling that you have never sensed before. You will feel your power, strong will and strength instead of being Shaytan’s captive. Get rid of Shaytan’s curb and you will feel extreme happiness+ the Angels' happiness for you+ Allah's happiness for you.

In Surat Al-A'râf (The Heights) verse 20, Allah says what can be translated as, "Then Shaytaan whispered suggestions to them both…” (TMQ, 7:20). Note Allah's choice of words "whispered", which indicates Shaytan’s insistence. Can you recognize the miraculous nature of the Holy Qur’an? “…in order to uncover that which was hidden from them of their private parts (before)” (TMQ, 7:20); Satan wants nakedness, so beware girls of exposing your body, or of allowing any man to touch you except after marriage, or allowing any man to hold your hand or kiss you. “…he (Shaytan) said, ‘Your Lord did not forbid you this tree except that you should become angels or become of the immortals.’ ”( TMQ, 7:20).

In Surat Taha the Shaytan said to Adam what can be translated as, "O Adam! Shall I lead you to the Tree of Eternity and to a kingdom that will never waste away?" (TMQ, 20:120). In this context Shaytan called it "Tree of Eternity". There is no tree with this name, and so Shaytan tricked them and all of us all this time.

Shaytan called atheism “creativity” or “freedom”, and called nakedness “fashion”. A young man would say, "I will not commit adultery, I will just go out with that girl and we will sit alone. I will not commit adultery, God Forbid!" In such a context the names are changed, and Shaytan starts to fix the wrong names in your mind until you yourself change.

The following verse from Surat Al-A'râf, can be translated as, "And he (Shaytân) swore by Allah to them both that he was their sincere adviser.” (TMQ, 7:21) (i.e. he falsely swore by Allah to them, which is the second sin committed after pride.) This in itself indicates that Adam did not respond directly to Shaytan, who tried more than once until he falsely swore [it was true]. However, with you, Shaytan does not need to swear to you to push you to commit sins because you respond right away. “Verily, I am one of the sincere well-wishers for you both." (TMQ, 7:21).

Adam and Hawwa’ had a pure nature; therefore, when they found Shaytan swearing by Allah, they could not imagine that there could be anyone who dares to swear by Allah falsely.

"So he misled them with deception…" (TMQ, 7:22) Shaytan started to push them gradually. Notice the beautiful Qur’anic expressions used to exemplify how Shaytan took gradual steps to humiliate them. Allah, be He Exalted and Glorified told them to keep away from the tree, but Shaytan told them to sit beside the tree. In other words, Shaytan will not suggest to you directly to drink alcohol, but will urge you to accompany someone who drinks. Allah, be He Exalted and Glorified, says in Surat Al-Baqarah (The Cow), "Satan misled them away from it" (TMQ, 2:36).

"Then when they tasted of the tree…” (TMQ, 7:22). The word "tasted" here makes clear that just tasting the tree’s fruit angered Allah. Hence, never say, "I will just ‘taste’ sin and will not [really] do it”. “…that which was hidden from them of their shame (private parts) became manifest to them" (TMQ, 7:22). Note how all the verses focus on the same meaning—private parts and nakedness—because this is a serious issue that will drive humanity to Hell. "And they began to cover themselves with the leaves of Paradise (in order to cover their shame)." (TMQ, 7:22). Adam and Hawwa’ ran to grab the leaves of the trees of Paradise to cover themselves. Do you see how shy they were? How do you dare look at nakedness through the Internet and satellite channels?

"And their Lord called out to them (saying): ‘Did I not forbid you that tree and tell you: Verily Shaytan is an open enemy unto you’" (TMQ, 7:22). Allah asked them, as He will do with us. What will your answer be when Allah calls you and asks, "Why did you do this? Why did you do that? Have not I prohibited you from doing this?"

On the Day of Judgment Allah, be He Exalted and Glorified, says, "O my slave! You underestimated meeting me. Have I been so insignificant to you, or have I not been watching your eyes when they were looking at the forbidden? Have I not been watching your lips when they were saying the forbidden? What mislead you from My path, my slave? What misled you from My path? O my slave! Read your book! “Did I not forbid you that tree and tell you: Verily Shaytan is an open enemy unto you” (TMQ, 7:22).

Here, at the end of my speech, I want to say that Adam and Hawwa’ were expelled from Paradise, and they didn't know what to do:

- Allah (SWT) said, "Are you running to escape from me Adam?"

- Adam replied, "No Allah, I am running because I’m ashamed of myself".

The main lessons learned from this lecture:
1. Beware of conceit.
2. Declare war against Shaytan and consider him your enemy.
3. Beware of the steps taken by Shaytan to control you, and resort to the eleven fortifications we mentioned.

Dear brother, your wife is your comfort. Dear sister, your husband is your comfort.
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Arwa
05-30-2005, 06:19 PM
:sl: wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu

I have read part 1 so far and masha'Allah it's excellent!!!

btw.. these are Amr Khaleds lectures translated into English. :)
Reply

A7med
05-30-2005, 06:32 PM
EXCELLENT!!!!!!!!!! MASHA'ALLAH!!!!!!!! just read Prt 1
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root
05-30-2005, 07:09 PM
Th
e Prophet (PBUH) said, “Allah created Adam from a handful of dust taken from different lands, so the children of Adam have been created according to the composition of the land. Therefore, from mankind we have white, red, black and yellow ones;
HHhmmm. And their was me thinking the reason why we have different colours in the Human species was due to adequately protect the human body from folic acid deficiency destroyed by the suns ultra violet light, the darker ones skin is the more protected one becomes but in evolutionary terms survival of the fittest takes a disadvantage away in that darker skins cannot absorb as much light as white skinned races. Hence, adapting to our surroundings created diversity within the species. The Gene pool seems to answer the origin of skin colour as initially "Black or White". Our ancestors were black and "Out of Africa" though skin colour of existing primates is white with dark hair, so the true skin colour may actually have been white since hair loss & skin colour are related and their is a predictable pattern of global skin colours

we have good and evil, ease and sorrow, and what comes in between them.” (Sahih Bukhari and At-Tirmidhi), and in another narration, he (PBUH) said “Allah the Almighty sent Gabriel onto the earth to get Him a handful of dust taken from different lands. Therefore, the children of Adam have been created according to the composition of the land.” What does this mean? The characteristics of people are different because they were created from various heaps of dust taken from all over the world; so there are red, white, and black people, and there are easy and hard-hearted, evil and good persons.
I suppose this demonstrates why Religous teachings should never stray into the realms of science education for I would be truly horrified if my children accepted this as a reasonable answer to the various skin colours. To dignify it with an answer is to accept the question as being plausable.


This Hadith shows us that our beginning was from a heap of dust, taken from different parts of the earth.
hhhmmm, then why does Islam accept the possibility of life on other planets & that if life was found it was probably due to the "stages" otherwise termed as "Stepping stones" towards the creation of adam, yet according to you that 1st stage was from the planet itself. A contradiction of term so to speak unless you consider "out of this world" life which in this case you have not.



That is the reason men have different colors. People have different colors—red, black, white, yellow—like the different colors of dust, and different natures, too. A good person, who comes close to Allah (SWT), once he hears the message, is like good fertile ground. An evil person who insists on wickedness and returns to it, even if you preach to him and help him several times, is like evil land. A hardhearted person who can never feel tenderness is like hard land that is full of thorns, and a kind person whom you love easily is like smooth land.
The good v evil fight is for the realm of religous

Though I would ask if you would fancy putting a date for "Adam" and out of my own ignorance was their life-forms before Adam and if so can you date it.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
05-30-2005, 10:34 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by root
HHhmmm. And their was me thinking the reason why we have different colours in the Human species was due to adequately protect the human body from folic acid deficiency destroyed by the suns ultra violet light,
Are you talking about cause, reason, or function? Because it seems like you have lumped them all together. The cause of various ski colours is not the same as the reason for different skin colours, nor is it the same as the function of different skin colours. Besides, if you believe in coincidence, then there is no reason behind anything, only causes and functions.

I suppose this demonstrates why Religous teachings should never stray into the realms of science education for I would be truly horrified if my children accepted this as a reasonable answer to the various skin colours. To dignify it with an answer is to accept the question as being plausable.
There are answers to questions, not to an entire subject. As soon as you use 'answer' in the way you have, it takes on the meaning of 'response', or a counterargument, which is obviously not what you intended to say.

Concerning skin colours:
If the Child asks "What are the adavantages or disadvantages of skin colours?" or "What's the difference (in function) between skin colours?)
Then we provide a biological answer with a scientific analysis of various skin colours.

If the Child asks "Why do people have different skin colours?"
Then we provide a 'philosophical' answer concerning the wisdom in diversity.

If the Child asks "How did God give us the different skin colours?"
Then we provide a 'religious' explanation about the source of humanity from dust of varying colours.

If we provide all these answers, then we fulfill our child's mental, emotional, and spiritual needs. If we do not, then we have not truly fulfilled our Child's needs.


hhhmmm, then why does Islam accept the possibility of life on other planets
No conflict here. There could be other life that God knows about.

that if life was found it was probably due to the "stages" otherwise termed as "Stepping stones" towards the creation of adam,
I'm not sure what you're stating here, but if its the gradula development of the human being, then that is correct Islamically.

yet according to you that 1st stage was from the planet itself.
This is also correct. I don't see the contradiction, maybe you might wish to elaborate.


The good v evil fight is for the realm of religous
Do atheists not believe in good or evil?

I'll keep that in mind.

Though I would ask if you would fancy putting a date for "Adam" and out of my own ignorance was their life-forms before Adam and if so can you date it.
First of all, everything that we would say in this regqard would only be theories. There are some very good theories out there, and I have my own theories, but a theory is a theory, and if it brings no benefit, then there is no point in wasting time pondering it.

There were most likely life-forms before Adam, who most likely was sent here several million years ago.

Evolutionists have theorised certain points in our history where we have been severely "bottle-necked" even down to a few individuals, and from an Islamic perspective, I would say that the start of one of these "bottle-necks" would be Adam and Eve.

peace
Reply

root
05-31-2005, 07:11 PM
If we provide all these answers, then we fulfill our child's mental, emotional, and spiritual needs. If we do not, then we have not truly fulfilled our Child's needs.
And if he asks which one is true, did we evolve black skin as an evolutional adaptation to our environment or because of the Dust\Sand coluor used during creation?

First of all, everything that we would say in this regqard would only be theories. There are some very good theories out there, and I have my own theories, but a theory is a theory, and if it brings no benefit, then there is no point in wasting time pondering it.
Perhaps you may wish to re-evaluate what a theory actually is!

that if life was found it was probably due to the "stages" otherwise termed as "Stepping stones" towards the creation of adam,

Evolutionists have theorised certain points in our history where we have been severely "bottle-necked" even down to a few individuals, and from an Islamic perspective, I would say that the start of one of these "bottle-necks" would be Adam and Eve.
This is not correct, the lowest known "Bottle-neck" was just short of around 10,000. A far cry from a few individuals

I'm not sure what you're stating here, but if its the gradula development of the human being, then that is correct Islamically.
Interesting, please expand on what you mean by gradula development of the human being


Quote:
yet according to you that 1st stage was from the planet itself.
This is also correct. I don't see the contradiction, maybe you might wish to elaborate.

The poster clearly states that the first stage in creation of "Adam" was from the dust of the earth. And if Islam is of the hypothosis that it was done in stages and it also "hypothosises" that life in the universe will be a "Stage of creation" then why has the poster omitted this information, for all the stages are confined to this planet.

Just out of interest, Islam thinks that life in the universe will "probably" not be intelligent.


Finally

Do atheists not believe in good or evil?
Essentially no. But it is one great analogy when describing the world we live in.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
05-31-2005, 09:05 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by root
And if he asks which one is true, did we evolve black skin as an evolutional adaptation to our environment or because of the Dust\Sand coluor used during creation?
First of all, there's no contradiction between the two ideas, but even still I would not agree that dark skin was the result of evolution.

Perhaps you may wish to re-evaluate what a theory actually is!
Perhaps. Islam is not concerned with theories.

The poster clearly states that the first stage in creation of "Adam" was from the dust of the earth. And if Islam is of the hypothosis that it was done in stages and it also "hypothosises" that life in the universe will be a "Stage of creation" then why has the poster omitted this information, for all the stages are confined to this planet.
It seems like you're asking about if Islam believes in the an extraterrestrial origin of human beings? I would say no.

Just out of interest, Islam thinks that life in the universe will "probably" not be intelligent
There could be intelligent life in the universe.

Essentially no. But it is one great analogy when describing the world we live in.
So if I asked you, "Do you consider terrorism/murder to be evil?" you would say, "no."

That helps explain why atheism is so destructive.

:w:
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mansio
06-20-2005, 08:08 PM
Here's a reasonable argument against Islam's validity :

the Quran states that man was made from dust, or from clay, or from mud.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
06-20-2005, 11:08 PM
:sl: And here's a reasonable answer my friend:
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=en...&QR=4811&dgn=4

The truth is that the statements are no more contradictory than a baker stating that he made bread from flour, or dough, or carbohydrates, etc.

In fact, these are all references to different stages in man's creation.

Here's a reasonable argument against Islam's validity
It may be against the Qur'an's validity if you claim it to be a contradiction, but if not then such a trivial issue has no bearing on islam's validity.

:w:
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mansio
06-21-2005, 06:04 AM
Man molded from clay by a god is an age-old pagan myth.
It was borrowed by the Bible and by the Quran.
Reply

Preacher
06-21-2005, 07:03 AM
Originally Posted by mansio
Man molded from clay by a god is an age-old pagan myth.
It was borrowed by the Bible and by the Quran.
mansio

The truth is other way around. But again, being a misguided Christian you possess no prophetic knowledge. Religion or Divine guidance preceded the paganism, which was the result of man corrupting the message of Allah.

The first man Adam (As) came to earth with the Divine message and guidance. Paganism is a later day product. You should know this, because your cult has distorted the message of all Biblical prophets and turned the concept of One and Only God into "three stooges." This is how the man distorted the true message. Again, Paganism borrowed it from the Divine teachings of Prophets like Adam, Noah, and Abaraham etc.
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mansio
06-21-2005, 07:19 AM
Everywhere archaeologists dig they find remnants of pagan gods.

They have never found a trace of Adam, Noah and Abraham.
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aamirsaab
06-21-2005, 08:52 AM
Originally Posted by mansio
Everywhere archaeologists dig they find remnants of pagan gods.

They have never found a trace of Adam, Noah and Abraham.
It is kind of hard to find a trace of Adam considering he died over a thousand years ago.
Just because they havn't found a trace doesn't mean they don't exist. These remnants of pagan "gods" you speak of. Exactly what remnants. i.e. provide an image or link so I can see exactly just how much of these so called gods exist.
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Abdul Fattah
06-21-2005, 11:37 AM
If i'm not mistaken i take it you'r refering to materialistic items of worship?
Well the reason theres none of them by adam, abraham etc is simply because they didn't have any! They worshipped allah, by their acts and thoughts, not by making a statue or something like that, so after they died, no other proof other than their legacy exist to tell us about their religion. So you'r correct there hasn't been any materialistic items of worship been found proving that islam existed before these pagan religions did, then again, to assume there would be, would exual in assuming they were misguided,paganised, get it?
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mansio
06-21-2005, 11:42 AM
You find the remnants scattered all over the world : temples, statues, inscriptions, even place names.
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Abdul Fattah
06-21-2005, 11:49 AM
inscriptions: well you have the the holy books do you not, of course you don't take them as a relyable source, that's another discussion then....

statues: thats a paganistic way of worship

temples: well just because atemples have only been built in a later stadia, doesn't mean that the earlyer prophets weren't islamitic. Not all information was given at once, I don't think you fully grasp the concept of a deity working with different prophets.
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aamirsaab
06-21-2005, 11:50 AM
Oh, you mean temples and stuff. I was thinkin something else. my mistake :D
Well, the human body tends to rot away after a thousand years whereas temples and other kinds of buildings will not.
Look, in a thousand years time nobody will find any remnants of your clothes, will they? But that doesn't mean you didnt exist.
And, as steve said: you won't find materialistic items of Adam and the others that you mentioned because they didn't have them.
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mansio
06-21-2005, 12:00 PM
Steve,

Many things that happened in the past are not found in one source but in several. The pharaohs of Egypt are mentioned in Egyptians annals and inscriptions and in the Bible. The Hittites are mentioned by their own inscriptions and in Egyptian annals.

Don't make me believe that God wouldn't have been powerful enough to preserve the memories of Adam, Noah and Abraham in more than one source, if they had existed. Were the pagans gods more important to Him that we find their traces all over the world ?

By the way, if you believe Adam existed, tell me when he lived.
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aamirsaab
06-21-2005, 12:13 PM
Ah nice question. I can't answer it cus i wasn't born at the time. However, i can counter the question to you: You had a great grandfather who's great grandfather had a great grandfather but you don't know when he lived. One can make an estimate of the time of that. one can also make an estiamte of the time of Adam. My estimation is a several thousand years ago. however, i cannot pin pointy it because i dont know how long man has been on earth as the method of calculating years have changed (e.g. B.C and A.C). Thus, i cannot answer your question because i don't really know what year he was born.

God is all powerful but He doesn't perform Human actions for He is God - not a human. He works differently and so His method of preserving the memories of Adam etc are different to what an average human's.

There is also another reason why Adam isn't remebered by a material item. This is because people would start to worship the idol/item and forget about the true person Adam was. it is called idol worshipping. this is also one of the reasons there are no pictures of Allah and why we as muslims are forbidden to idol worship.
Reply

Preacher
06-21-2005, 10:37 PM
Originally Posted by mansio
Everywhere archaeologists dig they find remnants of pagan gods.

They have never found a trace of Adam, Noah and Abraham.
mansio

If something is not found that does not constitutes it never existed. Beside that, a corpse in a decade is usually reduced to skull and few bones. So how would you think your so-called archaeologists would conclude that these bones belongs to or are of, Adam, Noah Abraham? I wasn't aware that your so-called archaeologists are that advance who can identify thousands years old bones and can tell with precision accuracy that it was/is "John Doe" who lived 6000 years ago?

Your statement is also very generalized and biased, because remnanats of pagan gods are not the only things that have been found, however, other things are not an issue here. Nevertheless, Adam (as) built the Ka'ba, but again you don't believe in that. Ka'ba is still standing, also, we have some information in traditions about things your archaeologists and you don't know. Needless to mention that some of your Biblical Prophets have come to Ka'ba and performed Hajj, I wonder why? Here is one proof out of many from your Bible, which is pretty detailed and comprehensive..

Prophet Ezekiel’s account of Performing Hajj
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
06-22-2005, 12:23 AM
:sl:
Originally Posted by mansio
Man molded from clay by a god is an age-old pagan myth.
The fact that some idea/theology is old does not make it any less valid. That's a logical fallacy. Remember, islam claims to be the original teachings since the beginning of time. Wouldn't it seem reasonable that the early Prophets of Islam spoke of creation from clay?

Secondly, you called the notion a 'pagan myth', both of which are unsubstatiated claims. Can you show me conclusive evidence that the theory of creation from clay has pagan origins? Can you show me how it is a myth?

I already discussed the creation from clay, with forum member root (atheist), and I've added that to the beginning of this discussion. Perhaps you should scroll back and read wrote.

:w:
Reply

mansio
06-22-2005, 10:32 AM
Sometimes I wonder if I am not discussing with children.
The idea of man molded from clay doesn't need to come from God. God is so much smarter than that. Anybody can watch a potter molding a statue. By analogy, in the pagan cultures, that fact gave the idea of a god creating a human being that way.
Man created from clay is a pagan myth borrowed by the Bible and then by the Quran.
It's as simple as that.

Most Christians know it's a pagan myth but they take it in a figurative meaning, symbolically. So they are not in the least embarrassed in their faith by the discoveries of science.
Some on this forum believe Adam actually existed, not by their own discoveries, but because they are told so by the Quran. So that obliges them to distort reality to make it match with the Quran.

As man emerged about two millions years ago when did Adam live ? If you want to narrow the question down to Homo Sapiens, who emerged between half a million and a quarter million years, do it.
Reply

root
06-22-2005, 12:19 PM
Some on this forum believe Adam actually existed, not by their own discoveries, but because they are told so by the Quran. So that obliges them to distort reality to make it match with the Quran.
I noticed too how quickly the thread was detroyed when we got to specifics regarding Adam.

Some on this forum believe Adam actually existed, not by their own discoveries, but because they are told so by the Quran. So that obliges them to distort reality to make it match with the Quran.
I agree with this too, and it is called "primatephobia".
Reply

Umm Yoosuf
06-22-2005, 12:32 PM
Assalaamu Alaykum

Arwa Jazakallahu Khayr sister!
Reply

aamirsaab
06-22-2005, 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by mansio
Man created from clay is a pagan myth borrowed by the Bible and then by the Quran.
It's as simple as that.
LOL, you do realise that the BIBLE and the QURAN both came from God. Thus, the QURAN didn'tt copy the BIBLE as the information is the same - not copied.

If you listen to an answer, you will have no question.
The deal with Adam is that he was the first human on this planet. We can estimate that he was on this earth several thousand years ago. Thus, there can be no "argument" about his existence.
The argument was "destroyed" before it began. You guys are on an Islamic forum and are tryin to disprove the existence of one of the most important figures in Islam. Anytime we try to explain something to you, you ask us more questions. You are never satisfied with any answer and you never will be. Perhaps there is something missing in you soul? Ah I know what it is: faith.
Reply

root
06-22-2005, 03:19 PM
The deal with Adam is that he was the first human on this planet. We can estimate that he was on this earth several thousand years ago. Thus, there can be no "argument" about his existence.
How can you estimate that. Several thousand is not the same as 500,000......

The argument was "destroyed" before it began. You guys are on an Islamic forum and are tryin to disprove the existence of one of the most important figures in Islam. Anytime we try to explain something to you, you ask us more questions. You are never satisfied with any answer and you never will be. Perhaps there is something missing in you soul? Ah I know what it is: faith.
Ah, faith...... I agree you cannot argue faith. If someone has faith that the sky is actually black then nothing and no ammount of evidence will sway his mind even if that meant he could no longer see what was in front of his eyes
Reply

aamirsaab
06-22-2005, 03:25 PM
How can you estimate that. Several thousand is not the same as 500,000......
ok i meant many thousands. my bad.

Ah, faith...... I agree you cannot argue faith. If someone has faith that the sky is actually black then nothing and no ammount of evidence will sway his mind even if that meant he could no longer see what was in front of his eyes
Faith doesn't make one blind. It gives them hope. It allows them to do things that they might never be able to do had they not had faith. Faith doesn't make one wrong - nor does it make them right. Faith is Faith.
Reply

Muhammad
06-22-2005, 04:11 PM
Originally Posted by mansio
Sometimes I wonder if I am not discussing with children.
The idea of man molded from clay doesn't need to come from God. God is so much smarter than that. Anybody can watch a potter molding a statue. By analogy, in the pagan cultures, that fact gave the idea of a god creating a human being that way.
Man created from clay is a pagan myth borrowed by the Bible and then by the Quran.
It's as simple as that.
One might as well say that if God created mankind, why is there sickness? Why isn't eveything perfect? Why don't things happen according to what we perceive to be as 'common sense'? The fact is, one of the attributes of God is that He is the All-Wise. Therefore we often find things that might not make sense to us, but God, out of His great Wisdom and Knowledge, knows it to be for the best. Who are we to question why God chose a certain substance to create us out of?
You say the pagans got their ideas from watching a potter, please provide evidence.

You still have not answered the question as to how you know which existed first: monotheism or paganism. Therefore how do you KNOW that the Bible and the Quran "borrowed" ideas? Let's be fair about this and provide proof to backup our statements shall we, don't just throw statements blindly into the air and expect everyone to believe them. Its no wonder you don't take any answers when you can't even provide solid evidence yourself.


Originally Posted by mansio
Most Christians know it's a pagan myth but they take it in a figurative meaning, symbolically. So they are not in the least embarrassed in their faith by the discoveries of science.
What exactly are you saying here, that most of the world's Christians don't believe that God made humans? That's a rather big assumption and if they don't, I doubt they can call themselves Christian. Maybe you could elaborate on this and possibly show some evidence.

Originally Posted by mansio
Some on this forum believe Adam actually existed, not by their own discoveries, but because they are told so by the Quran. So that obliges them to distort reality to make it match with the Quran.
Since when has anyone distorted reality to make it match with the Quran?? Science and Islam do not contradict each other, so perhaps you could provide examples proving otherwise?

Originally Posted by mansio
As man emerged about two millions years ago when did Adam live ? If you want to narrow the question down to Homo Sapiens, who emerged between half a million and a quarter million years, do it.
Muslims do not get too bogged down with unnecessary questions like the exact year in which the first man on earth lived. God has made it known that He created the first man, and this man came to earth, what more would you like to know? There are even descriptions about his height if you are that interested, and about his family etc etc. but you cannot expect modern day technology to reveal some remains from millions of years ago, and use that as an argument that Adam did not exist.
It has already been mentioned that:

Originally Posted by Preacher
If something is not found that does not constitutes it never existed.
And please do remember to think about the following questions:
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
The fact that some idea/theology is old does not make it any less valid. That's a logical fallacy. Remember, islam claims to be the original teachings since the beginning of time. Wouldn't it seem reasonable that the early Prophets of Islam spoke of creation from clay?

Secondly, you called the notion a 'pagan myth', both of which are unsubstatiated claims. Can you show me conclusive evidence that the theory of creation from clay has pagan origins? Can you show me how it is a myth?
Reply

Muhammad
06-22-2005, 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by root
I noticed too how quickly the thread was detroyed when we got to specifics regarding Adam.

I agree with this too, and it is called "primatephobia".
I think what's happened here is that certain people were asked for evidence and they chose to ignore that. Then they asked the same questions as though nobody answered them. The thread is still going but people are just trying to make false accusations and choose to take and leave what they like.

I think there is also such a thing as 'faithophobia' though it might not be a registered word yet.

Originally Posted by root
Ah, faith...... I agree you cannot argue faith. If someone has faith that the sky is actually black then nothing and no ammount of evidence will sway his mind even if that meant he could no longer see what was in front of his eyes

Strange you say that because it can go both ways... Some people claim they will only believe until they see God in front of their very eyes. I ask you, if He is the One to create our entire universe, the One whom mansio believes is so "smart" that making us out of clay seems unbelievable, why should He come down every century or so to prove His existence, when everything around us already points to His existence??
There is evidence everywhere around us yet some are blind to it, and God even mentions them in His Noble Book:

'Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you (O Muhammad (peace be upon him)) warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.' [2:6]

God addresses the Children of Israel:
'And (remember) when you said: "O Musa (Moses)! We shall never believe in you until we see Allaah plainly." But you were seized with a thunderbolt (lightning) while you were looking.
Then we raised you up after your death, so that you might be grateful.' [2:55-56]

'And even if We had sent down to them the angels and the dead had spoken to them and We had brought together all things before them, they would not believe unless Allah pleases, but most of them are ignorant.' [6:111]

'And those who do not hope for Our meeting, say: Why have not angels been sent down upon us, or (why) do we not see our Lord? Now certainly they are too proud of themselves and have revolted in great revolt.' [25:21]

'And certainly We have explained for men in this Quran every kind of similitude, but most men do not consent to aught but denying.
And they say: We will by no means believe in you (O Muhammad (peace be upon him)) until you cause a fountain to gush forth from the earth for us.
Or you should have a garden of palms and grapes in the midst of which you should cause rivers to flow forth, gushing out.
Or you should cause the heaven to come down upon us in pieces as you think, or bring Allah and the angels face to face (with us).
Or you should have a house of gold, or you should ascend into heaven, and we will not believe in your ascending until you bring down to us a book which we may read. Say: Glory be to my Lord; am I aught but a mortal apostle?' [17:89-93]
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Angel24
06-22-2005, 05:22 PM
Thankz for the post...indeed was a long one but just read part 1 yet...
got answers of my questions..... :)
:applaud: :applaud: :applaud:
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mansio
06-22-2005, 06:09 PM
Faith by itself doesn't mean anything.
If it is faith in something real, then it is legitimate.
If it is faith in something unreal, that has never existed, then it's called gullibility.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
06-22-2005, 07:31 PM
Mansio,
Its interesting that you call certain beliefs "fairy tales" or "pagan myths", yet the Qur'an rsponded to such arguments 1400 years ago.

25:4-6 But the disbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged, and others have helped him at it." In truth it is they who have put forward an iniquity and a falsehood.
And they say: "Tales of the ancients, which he has caused to be written: and they are dictated before him morning and evening."
Say: "The (Qur'an) was sent down by Him who knows the mysteries in the heavens and the earth: verily He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."


And furthermore:
83:10-14. Woe, that Day, to those that deny-Those that deny the Day of Judgment. And none can deny it but the Transgressor beyond bounds the Sinner! When Our Signs are rehearsed to him, he says, "Tales of the ancients!" By no means! but on their hearts is the stain of the (ill) which they do!

16:24 When it is said to them, "What is it that your Lord has revealed?" they say, "Tales of the ancients!"


I find it miraculous that in whatever debate I have, the Qur'an explicity answers the claims of my opponents for me. SubhanAllah.

Originally Posted by mansio
Sometimes I wonder if I am not discussing with children.
I asked you a question and you respond with condescending remarks. Let's try to have a productive dialogue, please.

The idea of man molded from clay doesn't need to come from God. God is so much smarter than that.
The logic doesn't follow here. God informs us that He has created human beings from clay, yet you dismiss God's words on the basis of what? Creation from clay is a sign for human beings, since to us clay seems so lifeless and inconceivable that we could be created from it, yet God has truly designed us in the best form from this substance, a testimony to His power and wisdom.
http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/eng...FatwaID=104053

Besides, I don't even know how you can remotely use this as an argument against Islam, since the nature of this clay was unknown to you.

This is what we know of earthly clay:
Clay is a generic term for an aggregate of hydrous silicate particles less than 4 ?m (micrometres) in diameter. Clay consists of a variety of phyllosilicate minerals rich in silicon and aluminium oxides and hydroxides which include variable amounts of structural water. Clays are generally formed by the chemical weathering of silicate-bearing rocks by carbonic acid, but some are formed by hydrothermal activity. Clays are distinguished from other small particles present in soils such as silt by their small size, flake or layered shape, affinity for water and high plasticity index.
There are three main groups of clays: kaolinite-serpentine, illite, and smectite. Altogether, there are about thirty different types of "pure" clays in these categories, but most natural clays are mixtures of these different types, as well as other weathered minerals.
Montmorillonite, with a chemical formula of (Na,Ca)0.33(Al,Mg)2Si4O10(OH)2·nH2O, is typically formed as a weathering product of low silica rocks. Montmorillonite is a member of the smectite group and a major component of bentonite.
Clays sintered in fire were the first ceramic, and remain one of the cheapest to produce and most widely used materials even in the present day. Bricks, cooking pots, art objects, dishware, spark plug tips, and even musical instruments such as the ocarina are all made with clay. Clay is also used in many industrial processes, such as paper making, concrete production, and chemical filtering.
Varve (or varved clay) is clay with visible annual layers, formed by seasonal differences in erosion and organic content. This type of deposit is common in former glacial lakes from the ice age.
Quick clay is a unique type of marine clay, indigenous to the glaciated terrains of Norway, Canada, and Sweden. It is a highly sensitive clay, prone to liquefaction which has been involved in several deadly landslides.

Anybody can watch a potter molding a statue. By analogy, in the pagan cultures, that fact gave the idea of a god creating a human being that way.
What you say is not historically correct, because in ancient cultures, the creation of clay was not accepted as the true account of man's creation.

In Norse Mythology, the first humans were created from logs by Odin and his brothers.

In the Ancient Aryan myths, we find the belief that the first man and woman grew out of plants and bushes.

In the Babylonian myths, Marduk uses the blood of Kingu to create man.

In the Inca mythology, Con Tiqui fashoned human beings out of giant rocks.

In the Mayan mythology, human beings are created by the Heart-of-sky from Maize-corn dough.

In the Navajo nation, humans were believed to be created from the ears of corn.

In the Celtic mythology, human beings are the descendents of the gods.

Amonst Egyptian Mythology, we find the belief that men and women formed from the tears of the god, Khepera.

Is this enough evidence? Quite clearly, your claim that ancient civilizations naturally believed in creation from clay as they saw pottery is comnpletely unjustified. The account of creation from clay spread under the Abrahamic faiths. Therefore, your claim that it is a "pagan myth" is refuted.

I agree that you will find some ancient cultures that believed in creation from clay, but this is clearly the result of divine revelation, and not analogies from pottery.

Man created from clay is a pagan myth borrowed by the Bible and then by the Quran.
It's as simple as that.
You can keep repeating the same claims, but that doesn't make them anymore credible.

Most Christians know it's a pagan myth but they take it in a figurative meaning, symbolically. So they are not in the least embarrassed in their faith by the discoveries of science.
It would seem to me that they are embarassed, and that's why they need to take the account "symbolically".

Some on this forum believe Adam actually existed, not by their own discoveries, but because they are told so by the Quran.
The sources for knowledge amongst human beings are many, but the most authoritative source is divine revelation. Once a scripture has been accepted as divine revelation, it holds the most weight as evidence.

So that obliges them to distort reality to make it match with the Quran.
Which reality has been distorted?

As man emerged about two millions years ago when did Adam live ? If you want to narrow the question down to Homo Sapiens, who emerged between half a million and a quarter million years, do it.
You can set a date for Adam whenever you wish, in light of scientific discoveries. It doesn't amke a difference.

According to our current understanding of evolution, there were several "bottle-necks" in the history of our species, where scientists have identified an extremely low number of individuals in the population. They suggest that at these points in our timeline, a great number of species died out, and the species procreated from these indivduals. Adam (pbuh) may have been aty any of those bottle-necks.


:w:
Reply

Muezzin
06-22-2005, 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by mansio
Faith by itself doesn't mean anything.
If it is faith in something real, then it is legitimate.
If it is faith in something unreal, that has never existed, then it's called gullibility.
Define reality and existence after reading the works of Baudrillard. Reality is only what our conciousness makes it - and we don't even know what that really is yet.
Reply

Muhammad
06-23-2005, 11:30 PM
And last but most certainly not least; a topping to finish off our response:

Originally Posted by mansio

I come to the crux of the matter : do you believe that Adam was an ape-like biped that slowly became intelligent, slowly acquired speech and slowly became religious ? "Slowly" can mean several thousand years.
Many times in the Qur'an can a person find the story of Adam. One only has to pick up the book and read.

[2.29]He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things.

[2.30] And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know.

[2.31] And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels; then He said: Tell me the names of those if you are right.
[2.32] They said: Glory be to Thee! we have no knowledge but that which Thou hast taught us; surely Thou art the Knowing, the Wise.

[2.33] He said: O Adam! inform them of their names. Then when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not say to you that I surely know what is ghaib in the heavens and the earth and (that) I know what you manifest and what you hide?

[2.34] And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam they did obeisance, but Iblis (did it not). He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.

[2.35] And We said: O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the garden and eat from it a plenteous (food) wherever you wish and do not approach this tree, for then you will be of the unjust.

[2.36] But the Shaitan made them both fall from it, and caused them to depart from that (state) in which they were; and We said: Get forth, some of you being the enemies of others, and there is for you in the earth an abode and a provision for a time.

[2.37] Then Adam received (some) words from his Lord, so He turned to him mercifully; surely He is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
[2.38] We said: Go forth from this (state) all; so surely there will come to you a guidance from Me, then whoever follows My guidance, no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.

[2.39] And (as to) those who disbelieve in and reject My communications, they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide.


Please note:
Allaah taught Adam the names of everything, which answers your question as to how Adam acquired intelligence.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
06-24-2005, 04:16 PM
:sl:
Threads split.

Some of my points were being left unanswered. We will deal with the origins of the story of creation from clay, as well as it's scientific authenticity, in this thread.

:w:
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root
06-25-2005, 12:33 PM
Some of my points were being left unanswered. We will deal with the origins of the story of creation from clay, as well as it's scientific authenticity, in this thread.

I can accept this, for I too have lost my way when the thread split. "creation from clay" or "evolution from clay". which is it to be............... for the point of the discussion.
Reply

Preacher
06-25-2005, 03:13 PM
:sl:

I am not sure why some people; especially "atheists and evolutionists" parrot too much of science, scientific and scientific evidence for everything, like science is the panacea of every question and human problems.

If that is true than, why there is a term in scientific vocabulary as "Paranormal" and why it has often used as an answer or conclusion by the scientists and experts etc?

Let us look in the American Heritage Dictionary what is the meaning of the word "Paranormal?"

par·a·nor·mal (p²r”…-nôr“m…l) adj. Beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation: such paranormal phenomena as telepathy; a medium's paranormal powers. --par”a·nor·mal“i·ty (-nôr-m²l“¹-t¶) n. --par”a·nor“mal·ly adv.
Now we are often bombard with the non-sense that science has found the cure of this and that, true; but what is the relevance of finding the cure of TB or any other disease with belief, in unknown and unseen or existence of God?

What about all those failures where science or scientific community conceded the defeat by concluding an issue or question as "Paranormal?" Doesn't it prove something, hello?

Despite of all its success (that no one is denying) science or scientific community have hopelessly failed to tell us what is the origin/s of life or how the life began?

The irony of the issue of evolution is that, it has two such distinct aspects to it. One is its theory, and the other one is its cause. The theory of evolution is said to be a certainty, whereas the cause of evolution is as yet unknown.

How it is possible for a concept to be believed with such forceful certainty when the causes are unknown?

It is like evolutionists are saying that, the concept of evolution is a theory for which arguments have yet to be discovered.

Can you see the obvious absurdity, here?

Regards
Reply

root
06-25-2005, 10:14 PM
I am not sure why some people; especially "atheists and evolutionists" parrot too much of science, scientific and scientific evidence for everything, like science is the panacea of every question and human problems.
I don't see how this is relavent.

If that is true than, why there is a term in scientific vocabulary as "Paranormal" and why it has often used as an answer or conclusion by the scientists and experts etc?
Some would say the paranormal is not science but it is a complex issue probably worthy of it's own thread.

Now we are often bombard with the non-sense that science has found the cure of this and that, true; but what is the relevance of finding the cure of TB or any other disease with belief, in unknown and unseen or existence of God?
I would ask you to expand but I fail to see how it is relevant to this thread. Are you saying one can use faith to protect ones-self from disease?

Despite of all its success (that no one is denying) science or scientific community have hopelessly failed to tell us what is the origin/s of life or how the life began?
Please let me come back to this shortly within this thread as it is relavent

How it is possible for a concept to be believed with such forceful certainty when the causes are unknown?
Again I will post tomorrow as above

It is like evolutionists are saying that, the concept of evolution is a theory for which arguments have yet to be discovered.
as above

Can you see the obvious absurdity, here?
No, I don't at least
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
06-25-2005, 10:31 PM
:sl:
Hi root,
Originally Posted by root
I can accept this, for I too have lost my way when the thread split. "creation from clay" or "evolution from clay". which is it to be............... for the point of the discussion.
Let's first deal with the origins of the story of creation from clay. Mansio made the claim that it was a "pagan myth" and that all ancient cultures believed that. I responded to that claim by citing the theories of creation in several ancient mythologies.

The other point we can discuss in this thread is the validity of belief in human's creation from clay.

If you wish to discuss evolution, let's leave that for the thread on creation vs. evolution.

:w:
Reply

Preacher
06-26-2005, 03:45 AM
Originally Posted by root
I don't see how this is relavent.



Some would say the paranormal is not science but it is a complex issue probably worthy of it's own thread.



I would ask you to expand but I fail to see how it is relevant to this thread. Are you saying one can use faith to protect ones-self from disease?



Please let me come back to this shortly within this thread as it is relavent



Again I will post tomorrow as above



as above



No, I don't at least
Hello root

Let me clear few things to set the record straight. First of all I don’t believe that my post was off topic or off target or in contrast of the thread title. I believe it was right on target and of the heart of the argument, despite of the title of thread. However, you have stated as such, to get even with me, since I said something to this effect to you, on other thread.

Having said that, I must assert that I have no desire to further any dialogue on the subject matter, I think I finish debating these issues over decade ago. This is a Muslim forum and my presence here is to defuse and refute the anti-Islam attacks, or to the least distortions. Therefore, what I posted was food for thought for my fellow Muslims.

Regards
Reply

root
06-26-2005, 02:40 PM
Let's first deal with the origins of the story of creation from clay. Mansio made the claim that it was a "pagan myth" and that all ancient cultures believed that. I responded to that claim by citing the theories of creation in several ancient mythologies.

The other point we can discuss in this thread is the validity of belief in human's creation from clay.

If you wish to discuss evolution, let's leave that for the thread on creation vs. evolution.
I included creation/evolution from clay in my post (most recent post) of which is the definitive understanding of how life started on this planet here:

http://www.islamicboard.com/showthre...ed=1#post47355
Reply

Bittersteel
06-26-2005, 05:39 PM
I somehow find it hard how evolution could have created humans.Its not that I came from a Muslim background or I am a Muslim.

Now that the sea is fully oxygenated (for those bothered to read the above link) it now moved into the atmosphere. Again this fully supports Evolutions claim that early complex (multi-celled) organisms existed in the sea a few million years before land, and life was able to move from sea to land firstly as single bacteriums then the complex multi-celled species of the sea could move to the surface of our planet.......... The rest is evolution continued.
everyhting evolved from water Allah said so.What are you stating anyway?I am a little lost. :-[ so many threads ...its confusing......
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Ansar Al-'Adl
06-26-2005, 08:06 PM
:sl:
Let's keep evolution in the other thread.

:w:
Reply

mansio
01-16-2006, 09:48 AM
Ansar al Adl

The Creation and Flood stories in the Quran come from the Bible. So it is the Bible stories that are compared to Mesopotamian myths.

The god Marduk formed the first humans not only from Kingu's blood but from a mixture of clay and blood.

This is from "Creation Stories around the World" (University of Georgia):
"In many stories, humans and other beings are made from clay. That's hardly surprising in light of many cultures' use of clay as medium to make both vessels and figurines. Creation from clay has often been cited as evidence of a primitive culture, at least by people from cultures with stories of creation ex nihilo (from nothing)."
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mansio
01-16-2006, 04:24 PM
Ansar al Adl

Some more documents about "my" opinions:

"Creation Myths of the Middle East"
By Ewa Wasilewska.
Ewa Wasilewska is an anthropologist and archaeologist specializing in the early civilizations of the Middle East. She teaches at the University of Utah.

"Most of the ancient Middle Eastern stories, including the Priestly account, describe humans being made out of clay, earth, and sometimes of divine blood or a mixture of blood and soil. In Sumerian mythology, the first people were fashioned from clay by Enki, who then decreed their fate."

"Another example of Mesopotamian tradition referring to the creation of man from clay is recorded in the Epic of Gilgamesh. The story originated in Sumer and, over time, became the most popular epic in the ancient Middle East. Its most complete version was discovered in Ashurbanipals library (built in Nineveh in the first millennium B.C.). According to the epic, Aruru, the mother of all living things, formed Enkidu from clay. Enkidu, in some ways a prototype of Adam, was called to life to stop Gilgameshs outrageous actions against his own people in Uruk."

"In ancient Egypt it was believed that people were created on a potters wheel, from clay and straw, by the god Khnum. However, to be fully alive they had to be animated with the ankh, the symbol of life, by the goddess Hathor."

"Adam was made from clay, and God "breathed into his nostrils a breath of life." This account is consistent with the stories of ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia. One Sumerian myth, "Cattle and Grain," specifically mentions that "man was given breath" by the assembly of gods known as Annunaki to finalize the creation of humankind."
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azim
01-16-2006, 04:57 PM
Salaamu alaykum.

The topic of creation from clay in the Quran has come up several times in discussion.

Scientifically speaking, the lines in the Quran which refer to creation from clay cannot be considered inaccurate.

"And certainly We created man of an extract of clay" 23:12
An extract from a Fisabilillah publication states: -

When the human body is examined, it is found that most elements present are earth are also to be found in the body. Living tissues contain 95% carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, phsophorus and sulphur, with a total of 26 different elements (taken from Kevin Griffin, The Elemental Composition of Life).

The term 'extract of clay' reflects this, that we are made with the same basic elements found in the earth.
Also, if we compare that the Quran states humans are made from Clay, the Jinn from 'smokeless fire' and the Angels from 'light', we see the nature of what has been described reflected in the their basic element of creation.

Creation from clay is a very common concept in many cultures, however this fact does not make the statement scientifically inaccurate.

Peace.

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afriend
01-16-2006, 04:59 PM
Mashallah, that was something I didn't understand at first...

Reps comin your way......wen i can give u some
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Ansar Al-'Adl
01-16-2006, 06:19 PM
:sl:
Threads merged.

You see, br. Azim, I had actually already refuted mansio's lies but mansio wasn't interested in a discussion. He just hid for some time before resurfacing with the same allegations.

:w:
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azim
01-16-2006, 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
:sl:
Threads merged.

You see, br. Azim, I had actually already refuted mansio's lies but mansio wasn't interested in a discussion. He just hid for some time before resurfacing with the same allegations.

:w:
Ah right. Sorry, I hadn't realised there was another thread on a same topic..should have checked :beard:.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
01-16-2006, 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by mansio
The Creation and Flood stories in the Quran come from the Bible.
Unsubstantiated claim. These lies were already refuted in the 'sources of the Qur'an' thread.

The god Marduk formed the first humans not only from Kingu's blood but from a mixture of clay and blood.
This is another one of your mistakes. Actually, the babylonian sources do not state such a thing but this is the conjecture of researches as Donal A. Mackenzie pointes out:
We have now reached the sixth tablet, which begins with a reference to words spoken to Merodach by the gods. Apparently Ea had conceived in his heart that mankind should be created. The lord of the gods read his thoughts and said: "I will shed my blood and fashion bone . . . I will create man to dwell on the earth so that the gods may be worshipped and shrines erected for them. I will change the pathways of the gods . . .".

The rest of the text is fragmentary, and many lines are missing. Berosus states, however, that Belus (Bel Merodach) severed his head from his shoulders. His blood flowed forth, and the gods mixed it with earth and formed the first man and various animals.

In another version of the creation of man, it is related that Merodach "laid a reed upon the face of the waters; he formed dust, and poured it out beside the reed. . . . That he might cause the gods to dwell in the habitation of their heart's desire, he formed mankind." The goddess Aruru, a deity of Sippar, and one of the forms of "the lady of the gods", is associated with Merodach as the creatrix of the seed of mankind. "The beasts of the field and living creatures in the field he formed." (Mackenzie, Myths of and Assyria, 1915, p.148)
Mackenzie points out that this is the conjecture of hsitorians who had missing fragments in the legends and this is what they theorised may have been part of the Babylonian myths. As Leonard William King writes:
According to Berossus, man was formed from the blood of Bêl mixed with earth. The new fragment of the Sixth Tablet does not mention the mixing of the blood with earth, but it is quite possible that this detail was recounted in the subsequent narrative. On the other hand, in the Babylonian poem Marduk declares that, in addition to using his own blood, he will create bone for forming man (King, The Seven Tablets of Creation, 1902, p.59, emphasis added)
This is something historians have merely said to be 'quite possible', in their own words. But yet they find no evidence of this in the original narrations!
Here's another quote from Enuma Elisha:
When Marduk beard the word of the gods,
His heart prompted him and he devised a cunning plan.
He opened his mouth and unto Ea he spake
That which he had conceived in his heart he imparted unto him:
"My blood will I take and bone will I fashion
I will make man, that man may
I will create man who shall inhabit the earth,
That the service of the gods may be established, and that their shrines may be built.
But I will alter the ways of the gods, and I will change their paths;
Together shall they be oppressed and unto evil shall they....
Do you see the word clay mentioned there??
Here's another description which from Proffesor Theophilus Pinches:
The creation of man.

To all appearance the gods, after he had ordered the universe and the
things then existing, urged Merodach to further works of wonder.
Taking up their suggestion, he considered what he should do, and then
communicated to his father Ae his plan for the creation of man with
his own blood, in order that the service and worship of the gods might
be established. This portion is also unfortunately very imperfect, and
the details of the carrying out of the plan are entirely wanting. (Pinches, THE RELIGION OF BABYLONIA AND ASSYRIA)
Pinches points out that the narrative does not give many details and he mentions later that some other details are found in the quotations of Abydenus, George the Syncellus, and Eusebius given from Berosus. Thus historians merely attempted to fill in the narrative with this external information.

Its funny how you brough the claim that this was a pagan myth yet I am the only one quoting from the pagan sources to show what they really believed!! The burden of proof is on YOU!

This is from "Creation Stories around the World" (University of Georgia):
"In many stories, humans and other beings are made from clay. That's hardly surprising in light of many cultures' use of clay as medium to make both vessels and figurines. Creation from clay has often been cited as evidence of a primitive culture, at least by people from cultures with stories of creation ex nihilo (from nothing)."
Does this prove that creation from clay mentioned in Islam is a pagan myth? Of course not! I have only proven that the vast majority of mythologies did not accept clay as an account for the creation of man. And even if they did, it still would not establish that the Qur'an had copied from them.

Regards
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Ansar Al-'Adl
01-23-2006, 02:18 AM
No response?
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mansio
01-23-2006, 09:45 AM
The fantastic stories in the Quran are to deliver a religious message. They have nothing to do with history or science.
So please stop denigrating the Quran by pretending it to be historically true and scientifically correct. It is not the purpose of the Quran.
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aZn_pLayGurL
01-23-2006, 09:46 AM
:) tRu tRu
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
01-23-2006, 01:57 PM
Originally Posted by mansio
The fantastic stories in the Quran are to deliver a religious message. They have nothing to do with history or science.
Excuse me. We are discussing Marduk and Kingu here and the Babylonian tales. Please see my previous post.

So please stop denigrating the Quran by pretending it to be historically true and scientifically correct.
I think the one who is denigrating the Quran is the one who calls it 'man-made'.
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Abu Zakariya
01-23-2006, 04:27 PM
mansio

Why can't you stick to one topic?
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root
05-26-2006, 07:03 PM
I thought I would bring a heads-up on how Science is progressing:

It is probably safe to say that no consensus has been reached yet in this area of research.

Panspermia has undoubtedly received a boost from the variety and complexity of organic compounds detected in interstellar gas clouds, in meteorites and on comets. No one would seriously doubt that cometary impact during the heavy bombardment phase contributed significantly to pre-biotic chemistry. By that same token the emergence of life soon after, or possibly during, this phase favours an extra-terrestrial origin.

Hypotheses focusing on the roles of crystal structure, such as Cairns-Smith clay progenitor, are plausible, well argued, but wholly lacking in evidence.

The Oparin-Haldane hypothesis of the primordial soup has been largely discarded in favour of the emergence of autotrophs in subterranean locales, safe from the repeated sterilisation of large impact events.

The 'RNA World' approach seems to be still popular (I don't think anyone is still maintaining DNA was the first replicating molecule), but it has significant problems. I lean towards self-replicating polypeptides and self-catalysing metabolic loops, with cellulat bodies emerging from the tendency for lipds to form spherical mebranes in water. i.e. the first cells were almost certainly a symbiotic combination of several chemical systems that together merited the term life.
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Woodrow
05-26-2006, 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by mansio
Everywhere archaeologists dig they find remnants of pagan gods.

They have never found a trace of Adam, Noah and Abraham.
They have never found a trace of Adam, Noah and Abraham.

Interesting thought. It is also interesting how paleontologists are capable of finding a single bone fragment. From that fragment are able to reconstruct a likely image of the creature, set up probabilities as to how prevelant the critter was and what it ate. And that is accepted as world belief with no need for further evidence.

Now, religious scholars have less things to work with. You are asking them to produce concrete solid physical proof of 3 specific people. I don't know about anybody else, but I have no way of locating the baby teeth I had as a child and they fell out. That is probably the only physical evidence that may exist to prove I was a living 5 year old in 1945. I guess since I have no solid physical artifacts of when I was a child, I must not have existed then and I can not believe the words of my childhood friends and relatives or my own memories..

Perhaps somethings are too far in the past for physical evidence to have remained or is in such minute quantity that it has little chance of ever being found. Perhaps sometimes we have to look upon the passed down words of those who witnessed or caused the events.

Actually we are quite satisfied that we know were the physical remains of the alter used by Abraham is and we are confident it was also used by Adam. That in itself is more then sufficient physical proof for us to accept the reality of Adam and Abraham.
Reply

root
05-26-2006, 08:26 PM
Interesting thought. It is also interesting how paleontologists are capable of finding a single bone fragment. From that fragment are able to reconstruct a likely image of the creature, set up probabilities as to how prevelant the critter was and what it ate. And that is accepted as world belief with no need for further evidence.
A little far fetched and over exagerated, but cool OK.

Now, religious scholars have less things to work with. You are asking them to produce concrete solid physical proof of 3 specific people. I don't know about anybody else, but I have no way of locating the baby teeth I had as a child and they fell out. That is probably the only physical evidence that may exist to prove I was a living 5 year old in 1945. I guess since I have no solid physical artifacts of when I was a child, I must not have existed then and I can not believe the words of my childhood friends and relatives or my own memories..
Let's face it tracing both male Y chromozone ( Y Chromozone Adam) and the mitocondrial DNA of Eve (Mitocondrial Eve) far from even remotely supporting religous scholars, it showed them that DNA evidence simply does not support the biblical adam and eve. The scientific adam and eve (to who we are all descendant) are seperated by thousands of years and yes the dates for Y Chromozone Adam and mitichondrial Eve are known.

Further, far from producing evidence of a world flood. Science only supports a local flood and that is the dead sea, even then. Flood stories are abundant by geographical location of the middle east by multiple cultures.

Perhaps somethings are too far in the past for physical evidence to have remained or is in such minute quantity that it has little chance of ever being found. Perhaps sometimes we have to look upon the passed down words of those who witnessed or caused the events.
Perhaps your just backing a loser.

Actually we are quite satisfied that we know were the physical remains of the alter used by Abraham is and we are confident it was also used by Adam. That in itself is more then sufficient physical proof for us to accept the reality of Adam and Abraham.
I doubt that very much. Let's face it the only evidence is the source itself (your scriptures), nothing else supports it.

Without prejudice

Root
Reply

Abdul Fattah
05-26-2006, 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by root
Let's face it tracing both male Y chromozone ( Y Chromozone Adam) and the mitocondrial DNA of Eve (Mitocondrial Eve) far from even remotely supporting religous scholars, it showed them that DNA evidence simply does not support the biblical adam and eve. The scientific adam and eve (to who we are all descendant) are seperated by thousands of years and yes the dates for Y Chromozone Adam and mitichondrial Eve are known.
I'd like to point out that these bones are refered to as adam's and eve's because they are the oldest ones found so far. Not because we know they were the first. In fact the suggestion that male homo sapiens came a thousand years later then female homo sapiens is absolutely absurd. Homo sapiens have always relied on intercourse to propagate. So given the average lifespan of a homo sapiens...

Further, far from producing evidence of a world flood. Science only supports a local flood and that is the dead sea, even then. Flood stories are abundant by geographical location of the middle east by multiple cultures.

Yes that's one of the cases were Islam turns out to have a better knowledge. It's christians who said the flood was global. Muslims never made that claim. But even then, why think so small? Forget the death sea, try the black sea.
In fact I recently saw a documentary on National geographic, about the discovery of traces of life on the bottem of the black sea. That sea used to be a much smaler lake (about 1/2 of the size as it is now and 50m deeper). At the end of the iceage, when massive polar icebergs began to partially thew, and the sea level rised slightly, seawater from teh mediteranian began to flow into that lake. The pouring water quickly erode the ground and created the bosphorus passing. It might have gonna slowly at first, but they estimate that from that it took more or less 2 weeks to get from the old lake (1/2 size and 50 meters deeper) to get to the current sea. Now that's what I call a flood!
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root
05-27-2006, 02:00 PM
I'd like to point out that these bones are refered to as adam's and eve's because they are the oldest ones found so far. Not because we know they were the first. In fact the suggestion that male homo sapiens came a thousand years later then female homo sapiens is absolutely absurd. Homo sapiens have always relied on intercourse to propagate. So given the average lifespan of a homo sapiens...
(Bolded Above) Is a big misconception with no basis. Actually Mitochondrial DNA is passed from mother to daughter only which gives a genetic link to all females who carry it. Mitochondrial Eve is the furthest that we are able to go back in generations where they still carry the correct DNA sequence represented in the female mitochondreal DNA. It is NOT as you have suggested (SOURCE PLEASE) the oldest bones found? BTW Mitochondrial Eve is dated at about 150,000 years ago to which ALL females alive today shares ancestory with.

Secondly, Y Chromozome Adam again passes his chromozone in a paternal link to all males in the same manner as mitochondrial DNA. Y Chromozome Adam is our furthest related unbroken paternal ancestor of all human males alive today and is dated between 60,000 - 90,000 years ago. This difference between Scientific Adam & Eve in time is about 85,000 years apart. Of course Humans existed before this date and some of the oldest DNA extractions do not match our scientific Adam & Eve as we go further back we are (as new discoveries are made) able to refine the date. However, do you suppose the biblical Adam & Eve would carry the same DNA Y Chromozone of Adam & Mitochondrial Eve your answer eould be interesting for the following reasons

Biblical Adam & Eve would carry the same gentic markers

The we can give an approxomate date for the biblical adam & eve to the same dates as scientific adam & eve.

Biblical Adam & Eve would NOT carry the same gentic markers

How do you explain that without using the theory of evolution.

yes that's one of the cases were Islam turns out to have a better knowledge. It's christians who said the flood was global. Muslims never made that claim. But even then, why think so small? Forget the death sea, try the black sea. In fact I recently saw a documentary on National geographic, about the discovery of traces of life on the bottem of the black sea. That sea used to be a much smaler lake (about 1/2 of the size as it is now and 50m deeper). At the end of the iceage, when massive polar icebergs began to partially thew, and the sea level rised slightly, seawater from teh mediteranian began to flow into that lake. The pouring water quickly erode the ground and created the bosphorus passing. It might have gonna slowly at first, but they estimate that from that it took more or less 2 weeks to get from the old lake (1/2 size and 50 meters deeper) to get to the current sea. Now that's what I call a flood!
I dont like the term "knowledge" when it comes to Islam or indeed christianity. Certainly some historical information will be a real account of the time that the scriptures were actually written. However, the way that "knowledge" is extracted to me is very questionable:

Firstly, Oral documentation is totally unreliable (I am sure we all agree with this). Additionally, translation problems are an issue even today.

Now, finally. Would anyone deny that knowledge comes to be via the following method.

1. A scientific discovery is made.
2. the Koran & the thousands of hadiths are deeply scrutinised for any remote suggestion that matches the discovery. Where a part match or match occures, then either a miracle is proclaimed or a claim to advanced knowledge is decreed.

My problem with this is that in itself that works for anything from star trek to nostradamus to the Koran and the bible.

However, this is all going off topic. Since the point originally being made is that over the recent years "creation from clay" has lacked much evidence and still does whilst pamspermia and RNA molecules have progressed forward.
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Woodrow
05-27-2006, 05:21 PM
This thread is pointing out some of the difficulties in dialogue between Religious belief and scientific belief. It is similar to trying to establish communication between 2 different language groups.

Different language connontations do exist. Different criteria for proof do exist. There are differences in even the basic concepts as to what does constitue proof.

It is a very challanging task to establish mutualy aceeptable grounds of debate. Simple words have different connontations if used in a religious content or in a scientific content.

I strongly believe that Truth is truth and that what is true in one area is true in all areas. The problem is in trying to find the language that is understood in all areas.

I commend all who are participating in this thread. Nobdy has resorted to pure emotionalism nor showed any direspect to any other persons views.

Perhaps the final conclusion of this thread is it will end up as the only agreement being, we each have reasons for our beliefs and so far we have not seen any evidence that will change those beliefs. Frustrating yes, but acceptable? I believe it should be.
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