Truth= god does not exist?

[nogod2006]

I have yet to meet an individual that can prove the existence of this unseen entity that is known universally as god. My core beliefs stem from the fact that this world came to be by mere chance and probability. That is why I would to like call out to any one that can prove to me (once and for all) the existence of this so called god ( or maybe gods ……ha-ha).

P.S please try to use references to prove your points that are based on solid scientific facts

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Hi,

Do you believe in the Sun? I dont believe in it. Its not there. It cant be there. The light I see in the day is caused by tubelights in the sky.

[IzakHalevas]

solid scientific facts

What is a "solid scientific fact"? It seems with each new generation of scientists new "facts" become the obvious.

How about we try this in a simpler way, can you prove to me there is no G-d, by use of solid scientific facts?

[Dahir]

I will resort to a classic that I'm sure Ahmed has seen before:

The bacterial flagellum's stator, rotor, drive-shaft, U-joint, and propeller. It is not convenient that we've given these parts these names - that's truly their function. If you were to find a stator, rotor, drive-shaft, U-joint, or propeller in any vehicle, machine, toy or model, you would recognize them as the product of an intelligent source. No one would expect an outboard motor -- much less one as incredible as the flagellar motor -- to be the product of a chance assemblage of parts. Motors are the product of intelligent design.

Its not very puzzling, try to make the best sense of it.

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Does chaos create organization? If so, what exactly? If I dropped a glass on the floor over and over, will i ever get a perfect split? Thats pretty unlikely.
How is that everything in our body has a role, a purpose for us, yet we ourselves have none? Trying to prove God's existence physically is like saying God itself is creation. Creation is finite not infinite.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

pretty funny haha
how ever i can see the sun but i cant see this god of yours and u have still not proved anything to me.
good job son!

Can you see light? Can you see thoughts? Can you see feelings?

[wilberhum]

I have yet to meet an individual that can prove the existence of this unseen entity that is known universally as god. My core beliefs stem from the fact that this world came to be by mere chance and probability. That is why I would to like call out to any one that can prove to me (once and for all) the existence of this so called god ( or maybe gods ……ha-ha).

P.S please try to use references to prove your points that are based on solid scientific facts

There are no "solid scientific facts" either for or against. If you have any concept of what Science is, you would understant that.

[nogod2006]

I will resort to a classic that I'm sure Ahmed has seen before:

The bacterial flagellum's stator, rotor, drive-shaft, U-joint, and propeller. It is not convenient that we've given these parts these names - that's truly their function. If you were to find a stator, rotor, drive-shaft, U-joint, or propeller in any vehicle, machine, toy or model, you would recognize them as the product of an intelligent source. No one would expect an outboard motor -- much less one as incredible as the flagellar motor -- to be the product of a chance assemblage of parts. Motors are the product of intelligent design.

Its not very puzzling, try to make the best sense of it.

yes that is true if we were living in a small world however consider the size of the entire universe and such a complex thing is quite possible . not to mention the age of the universe.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

i can quite easily slap you, good luck showing me the pain. you might say you feel it but i cant see it so ;D

[nogod2006]

Can you see light? Can you see thoughts? Can you see feelings?

that is true however all of the variables that you have preposed are at the very least measurable . tell me then can u in any way present me the dimension of this so called god
good luck on that buddy

[Dahir]

yes that is true if we were living in a small world however consider the size of the entire universe and such a complex thing is quite possible . not to mention the age of the universe.

I know its possible, so is the airplane, but someone had to design and create it -- correct?

[Woodrow]

A blind person will never see the blue sky. For that person there is no way to prove the sky even exists or is blue.

To a non-believer there is no acceptable proof of Gods(swt) existance and for that person God(swt) does not exist, and will not exist.

There is no need to prove the existance of God(swt), a person only needs to accept the Love of God(swt) and the warmth will lead to the proof.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

tell me then can u in any way present me the dimension of this so called god

Yeah. I can measure light. Its about 12 feet long in my room. Also, my thoughts weigh about 54 pounds and are 10 feet long and my feelings weigh 66 pounds. How much does yours weigh?

lol. Your question is flawed. You dont even understand what 'God' is. To ascribe him a dimension would be to put him under constriction and size is an attribute of something created.

[nogod2006]

i can quite easily slap you, good luck showing me the pain. you might say you feel it but i cant see it so ;D

that is the silliest thing i have ever heard or read because how can that possibly prove to me the exsistence of your god
son think and try to be more serious
please , for your own sake, stop ( i repeat stop) embarrassing your self

[nogod2006]

Does chaos create organization? If so, what exactly? If I dropped a glass on the floor over and over, will i ever get a perfect split? Thats pretty unlikely.
How is that everything in our body has a role, a purpose for us, yet we ourselves have none? Trying to prove God's existence physically is like saying God itself is creation. Creation is finite not infinite.

like u said unlikely
but it is still possible

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

You would never get it. It would always split in many pieces.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

that is the silliest thing i have ever heard or read because how can that possibly prove to me the exsistence of your god
son think and try to be more serious
please , for your own sake, stop ( i repeat stop) embarrassing your self

Dont divert from the question. Can you see pain?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

So does choas create organization, something in perfection? Answer please?

[nogod2006]

Dont divert from the question. Can you see pain?

you do not have to see it but it can still be measured by the use of certain equipment( that measure brain activity)

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Yet u still have to measure something u can "feel." Looking at such a complex design as the Earth, humans, animals, everything inside and out, u still need proof?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

you do not have to see it but it can still be measured by the use of certain equipment( that measure brain activity)

so make an equipment to measure someones faith which God himself bestows. I'll be waiting :)

[nogod2006]

So does choas create organization, something in perfection? Answer please?

lol at least answer mine "buddy"

P.S. if u have a question, ask in a civil manner, not like an animal.

what is so uncivil by the use of the word "buddy"
please think before replying

it is only perfect because u said its perfect!
which lead s me to ask u what make something perfect because i can say a piece of rock or mucus is perfect

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

The complexity we find in every system in the universe is a testmony to the power of the Creator.

[nogod2006]

The complexity we find in every system in the universe is a testmony to the power of the Creator.

that is true we were living in a small fiish tank
read my quote again pleeeeeazzze

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

what are u talking about "buddy"
again try to prove the exsistence this allaaah haha

I dont ask you to believe. But we demand respect buddy. Respect, or your out of here in a flash, consider this your final warning.

[nogod2006]

Yet u still have to measure something u can "feel." Looking at such a complex design as the Earth, humans, animals, everything inside and out, u still need proof?

can you please be more specific so i can properly reply

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

that is true we were living in a small fiish tank
read my quote again pleeeeeazzze

You have failed to respond to any of our arguements! Why dont you reply instead of just repeating your blindness?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi nogod,
You seem to think that because you can 'see' the sun it therefore must exist. You evidently have not heard of solipsism. How can you prove that anything except your own mind exists?? How do you know everything you see, hear, smell, taste or otherwise percieve are not just conjured in your mind? You don't, do you? Go look up solisism if you are still unsure as to what I'm talking about.

Answer that before we continue.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

what are u talking about "buddy"
again try to prove the exsistence this allaaah haha

you want me to get a ladder, climb up to heaven, and come bak down with signed proof and two angels on each side, thats wat u want. it aint happenin buddy. Try take the hint, no-ones managed to live forever, 90% of the world is either muslim/christian or some other faith.


i cud talk science all day wiv u and statistics but wats the point if your blind, i cant teach a blind man to see :-\

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

very good
please now proceed and prove the exsistence of this god

'very good' is not an answer to my question. Can you 'prove' the existence of ANYTHING other than your own mind? Can you prove the existence of what you see? How do you know it is not an image conjured in your mind?

I dislike repeating myself. Please answer my questions directly this time.

[Umm Yoosuf]

Masha Allah very interesting discussion....carry on I'll get my fat note book and take down notes (I got an eassy to do something very similar to this)

[hakkerz]

Well people...

I promised myself i wouldnt get into these debates, coz i think at the end, even if you prove your point, you still end up looking like a retard.lol

first things first, there is no proof of God, if there was, then there would be no point of a religion because the aspect of Faith upon which religion depends upon, is not present. Imagine i tell you, prove to me your computer exists, and you say, yes im typing on the keyboard, then i say, ok, now believe that the computer exists.lol..it doesnt make sense. Some people say, well why doesnt God just come down and show himself, firstly he isnt a physical entity to be seen, secondly, if he did, again, the aspect of faith has dissapeared.

A few things to think about though.

Point 1.

Its called reasoning and logic, ultimately science is based upon this, nor core facts (trust me, im studying medicine, and everything we learn is just a 'theory' which is then taken to be proof). For example, we remained for hundreds of years following newtons first law,until Einstein came along and said we cant go faster than the speed of light, they are all theories, not 'solid proof'. Therefore, if you see a picture, for example a Van Gogh, whether it is a dog,cat,landscape,portrait, you look at it and tell me, its a van Gough, because he has a certain style. Similarly, why when we look at this world we dont say, well these humans,animals plants etc... they are all by the same artist. On the contrary, what your saying is, they all look the same, but i think it makes more sense to assume that the the picture painted itself, with paint and a paintbrush that came from nowhere. Not logic. If you think that we are made by evolution, then again, fine believe we came from animals, but that doesnt negate the point that animals were created by God.

Point 2.

If we are simply mere chance, and we began from the Big-bang, then why is it that despite billions of KNOWN planets, universes,solar systems..the lot. We are the only planet to have obvious human life. In other words, we all started from the big-bang,randomly,noone caused it. Why didnt everything evolve in the same way, so that every planet, or at least 1/100000000000000000000000 planets ended up with a human being, or even an amoeba (one celled organism). Yes, we havent explored that far out, however we can still trace millions of planets, and not one has similar life to us. Hence why NASA are going crazy trying to find water somewhere, to show that life exists. The reason why we turned out different, or why we evolved differently if you may, is because something interfered in that, and im not saying believe in the Muslim God, but rather, that thing/person which caused that change and for us to be in existance must, in my opinion, exist.
To give u a scientific example once again, Newtons first law states that an object at rest tends to stay at rest and an object in motion tends to stay in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an external resultant force. If no external force acts, then everthing will remain uniform, apply the same to the universe, we are expanding at a constant speed, yet, why the huge differences in planets, and so on...

Point 3
If we were created by chance, and this world has no point to it, why dont we just go and kill ourselves. We complain about this life so so much, and we started by chance, so when your drowning in the swimming pool, why scream for help, why dont u jst let yourself drown, what have you got to live for? I dont intend any insult by this point, but in life, we only work for something when there is a point, or outcome. E.G i worked my ass off to get into med-school, i wanted to get into med-school so i could have a good career and a good job, i want a good rewarding job because i want to raise a family, etc etc...(simplified view of my life.lool)If there is no point to our existance its only logical for there to be no point to us living either, however your instinctive action to stay alive shows me that God exists. Again, scientific point. DNA has loads of parts, and some parts, we dont know what they do, they are just there, they dont code for anything, theyre useless. yet i asked a professor the reason for there presense and he said that we dont know yet. he didnt say that there was no point to them! Things in nature/science arent created for 'no reason', everything has a purpose. So we must have been created for a purpose, by someon/thing that actualy knew what it was doing, not some random process.

Point 4
This is a vague point, and kinda ties in with the previous ones, but ive got an early start tomorrow, and need to get some sleep! Basically, the very fact that you question the existance of God, is more or less showing you that a God out there exists. For e.g you wouldnt go hungry if there was no food, or you wouldnt become thirsty if there was no water! Most of the time, we dont question something that is soo remotely unbelievable, and distant....

Lastly, i doubt ive convinced you of the existance of God, and to be honest i hardly expected it when writing this. Thinking about this stuff makes me more firm in my belief and just higlights to me that the path i am on is the true one in my eyes. The way your question was posed shows you are looking for a challenge as opposed to wanting to actually find an answer. You probably already ahd your mind made before you read this either way. Thing is? In science, proof never refutes a theory it only backs one up. In other words, when i carry out a scientific experiment, irrespective of the outcome, it can never 'prove' that a theory is wrong, it can only prove a theory is right...if that makes sense. For e.g is light a wave or a particle, there are theories to SUPPORT both only, and none to REFUTE. Point being, if we want to do everything the scientific way, you have to prove that god doesnt exist, not the other way round.

Hope i dont sound patronising or arrogant, and forgive me if i do, for it was no my intention.

May you find happiness in this life, and suceed in whatever you do...

A human is two things, either your brother in Islam, or your brother in humanity.

Take Care

Ahmad

[IbnAbdulHakim]

for the last time i am not here to bash on anyone nor am i here to act like a smarttalker( if u know what i mean). please be more logical and realistic

read the Quran. Nothing gets more logical :)


:peace: i hope you find what your looking for , may our intelligence help us attain success !

[nogod2006]

'very good' is not an answer to my question. Can you 'prove' the existence of ANYTHING other than your own mind? Can you prove the existence of what you see? How do you know it is not an image conjured in your mind?

I dislike repeating myself. Please answer my questions directly this time.

and what standard should i use to answer your question

[جوري]

very good
please now proceed and prove the exsistence of this god

Why not you proceed proving his nonexistence? Since you mention probability in the beginning of your post as well as chance ... the probability of this much perfection and this much detail happening on its own volition is too phenomenal to be a chance happening. Show me just one thing in the history of mankind in a controlled laboratory setting, that has produced that much a favorable outcome and we can contrast it to the non-controlled creation of which the existence of God seems an illogical impossibility.

[Woodrow]

very good
please now proceed and prove the exsistence of this god

Prove that you exist. i contend that you are simply a computer program generating random words that by coincidence are forming understandable sentences. The universe is between 5 and 20 billion years old. More than ample time for me to be reading what appears to be words, but are simply random electrical impulses that are causing the appearance of words on my monitor.


I am happy with my own understanding of God(swt). I have the opposite question for you. Prove that the universe was created by chance. You must have some reason to believe the universe exists, explain how it came into existance and prove it.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

From Br.lolwatever:

Perhaps if you knew something about math, you'd understand that it's 100% wrong of you to even suggest that such a probabalistic monstrosity could occur.... simply put... if you take the limit of a probability function that models the existance of this universe - ranging from the bgi bang, to the organistaion fo chaos, to the evolution of all sorts of things to their current states, no mathematicision would argue that the probability literally is not ZERO.

Try disproving that if you wish... based on that, knowing that the probability is literally zero in the limit, surely there's gotta be some sort of intelligent designer behind it all."

I advise you to take a course in math.... you'll learn alot trust me (math is a science btw)

[IbnAbdulHakim]

i have already read too many excellent refutations, especially lolwatever's refutation, i believe its time for NoGOD to become "ONEGODONLY" thts Allah swt ;)

[hakkerz]

Well people...

I promised myself i wouldnt get into these debates, coz i think at the end, even if you prove your point, you still end up looking like a retard.lol

first things first, there is no proof of God, if there was, then there would be no point of a religion because the aspect of Faith upon which religion depends upon, is not present. Imagine i tell you, prove to me your computer exists, and you say, yes im typing on the keyboard, then i say, ok, now believe that the computer exists.lol..it doesnt make sense. Some people say, well why doesnt God just come down and show himself, firstly he isnt a physical entity to be seen, secondly, if he did, again, the aspect of faith has dissapeared.

A few things to think about though.

Point 1.

Its called reasoning and logic, ultimately science is based upon this, nor core facts (trust me, im studying medicine, and everything we learn is just a 'theory' which is then taken to be proof). For example, we remained for hundreds of years following newtons first law,until Einstein came along and said we cant go faster than the speed of light, they are all theories, not 'solid proof'. Therefore, if you see a picture, for example a Van Gogh, whether it is a dog,cat,landscape,portrait, you look at it and tell me, its a van Gough, because he has a certain style. Similarly, why when we look at this world we dont say, well these humans,animals plants etc... they are all by the same artist. On the contrary, what your saying is, they all look the same, but i think it makes more sense to assume that the the picture painted itself, with paint and a paintbrush that came from nowhere. Not logic. If you think that we are made by evolution, then again, fine believe we came from animals, but that doesnt negate the point that animals were created by God.

Point 2.

If we are simply mere chance, and we began from the Big-bang, then why is it that despite billions of KNOWN planets, universes,solar systems..the lot. We are the only planet to have obvious human life. In other words, we all started from the big-bang,randomly,noone caused it. Why didnt everything evolve in the same way, so that every planet, or at least 1/100000000000000000000000 planets ended up with a human being, or even an amoeba (one celled organism). Yes, we havent explored that far out, however we can still trace millions of planets, and not one has similar life to us. Hence why NASA are going crazy trying to find water somewhere, to show that life exists. The reason why we turned out different, or why we evolved differently if you may, is because something interfered in that, and im not saying believe in the Muslim God, but rather, that thing/person which caused that change and for us to be in existance must, in my opinion, exist.
To give u a scientific example once again, Newtons first law states that an object at rest tends to stay at rest and an object in motion tends to stay in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an external resultant force. If no external force acts, then everthing will remain uniform, apply the same to the universe, we are expanding at a constant speed, yet, why the huge differences in planets, and so on...

Point 3
If we were created by chance, and this world has no point to it, why dont we just go and kill ourselves. We complain about this life so so much, and we started by chance, so when your drowning in the swimming pool, why scream for help, why dont u jst let yourself drown, what have you got to live for? I dont intend any insult by this point, but in life, we only work for something when there is a point, or outcome. E.G i worked my ass off to get into med-school, i wanted to get into med-school so i could have a good career and a good job, i want a good rewarding job because i want to raise a family, etc etc...(simplified view of my life.lool)If there is no point to our existance its only logical for there to be no point to us living either, however your instinctive action to stay alive shows me that God exists. Again, scientific point. DNA has loads of parts, and some parts, we dont know what they do, they are just there, they dont code for anything, theyre useless. yet i asked a professor the reason for there presense and he said that we dont know yet. he didnt say that there was no point to them! Things in nature/science arent created for 'no reason', everything has a purpose. So we must have been created for a purpose, by someon/thing that actualy knew what it was doing, not some random process.

Point 4
This is a vague point, and kinda ties in with the previous ones, but ive got an early start tomorrow, and need to get some sleep! Basically, the very fact that you question the existance of God, is more or less showing you that a God out there exists. For e.g you wouldnt go hungry if there was no food, or you wouldnt become thirsty if there was no water! Most of the time, we dont question something that is soo remotely unbelievable, and distant....

Lastly, i doubt ive convinced you of the existance of God, and to be honest i hardly expected it when writing this. Thinking about this stuff makes me more firm in my belief and just higlights to me that the path i am on is the true one in my eyes. The way your question was posed shows you are looking for a challenge as opposed to wanting to actually find an answer. You probably already ahd your mind made before you read this either way. Thing is? In science, proof never refutes a theory it only backs one up. In other words, when i carry out a scientific experiment, irrespective of the outcome, it can never 'prove' that a theory is wrong, it can only prove a theory is right...if that makes sense. For e.g is light a wave or a particle, there are theories to SUPPORT both only, and none to REFUTE. Point being, if we want to do everything the scientific way, you have to prove that god doesnt exist, not the other way round.

Hope i dont sound patronising or arrogant, and forgive me if i do, for it was no my intention.

May you find happiness in this life, and suceed in whatever you do...

A human is two things, either your brother in Islam, or your brother in humanity.

Take Care

Ahmad

Peace

[wilberhum]

You all need to look at what you are saying in response to

Please try to use references to prove your points that are based on solid scientific facts

First let’s not ignore “Exsist”..
And then evaluate the answers.

Do you believe in the Sun?
The bacterial flagellum's stator, rotor, drive-shaft, U-joint, and propeller
Does chaos create organization?
Can you see light?
i can quite easily slap you, good luck showing me the pain.
if u have a question, ask in a civil manner, not like an animal.
I know its possible, so is the airplane, but someone had to design and create it -- correct?
A blind person will never see the blue sky.
You dont even understand what 'God' is.
You would never get it.
So does choas create organization, something in perfection?
Yet u still have to measure something u can "feel."
so make an equipment to measure someones faith which God himself bestows.
The complexity we find in every system in the universe is a testmony to the power of the Creator.
I dont ask you to believe. But we demand respect buddy.
You have failed to respond to any of our arguements!
You seem to think that because you can 'see' the sun it therefore must exist.
you want me to get a ladder, climb up to heaven.
Can you 'prove' the existence of ANYTHING other than your own mind?
read the Quran. Nothing gets more logical
Prove that you exist.

You guys have done a poor job. Just arguments, no proof like he asked for. And the arguments are really bad. I’m just sitting back laughing. All emotion and no logic.

If you would simply acknowledge that when it comes to god “There is no Proof” you would eliminate a lot of empty rhetoric.

[nogod2006]

You all need to look at what you are saying in response to

First let’s not ignore “Exsist”..
And then evaluate the answers.

Do you believe in the Sun?
The bacterial flagellum's stator, rotor, drive-shaft, U-joint, and propeller
Does chaos create organization?
Can you see light?
i can quite easily slap you, good luck showing me the pain.
if u have a question, ask in a civil manner, not like an animal.
I know its possible, so is the airplane, but someone had to design and create it -- correct?
A blind person will never see the blue sky.
You dont even understand what 'God' is.
You would never get it.
So does choas create organization, something in perfection?
Yet u still have to measure something u can "feel."
so make an equipment to measure someones faith which God himself bestows.
The complexity we find in every system in the universe is a testmony to the power of the Creator.
I dont ask you to believe. But we demand respect buddy.
You have failed to respond to any of our arguements!
You seem to think that because you can 'see' the sun it therefore must exist.
you want me to get a ladder, climb up to heaven.
Can you 'prove' the existence of ANYTHING other than your own mind?
read the Quran. Nothing gets more logical
Prove that you exist.

You guys have done a poor job. Just arguments, no proof like he asked for. And the arguments are really bad. I’m just sitting back laughing. All emotion and no logic.

If you would simply acknowledge that when it comes to god “There is no Proof” you would eliminate a lot of empty rhetoric.

finally some one who understands my logic
but i can never imagine my self being more straight forward please
pace your self and give them time:happy:

[Woodrow]

In the name of Peace I am doing some house cleaning. No more off topic arguements will be accepted.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

You guys have done a poor job. Just arguments, no proof like he asked for. And the arguments are really bad. I’m just sitting back laughing. All emotion and no logic.
.

from now on i would like to call you the "circular logic man" lol, is that ok? ;)

The Quran is solid proof of the existence of God. If you just think about it.


:peace:

[جوري]

If you would simply acknowledge that when it comes to god “There is no Proof” you would eliminate a lot of empty rhetoric.

if he would go ahead and prove that G-D doesn't exist also "logically"
Then both arguments can nullify each other and we can call it a day ... and you won't end up instituted from experiencing paroxysmal laughter at inappropriate times....

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

All we ask is not to disrespect anyones beliefs. For example, u said "this" Allah.

When disrespect has become a part of someone's character, they fail to see it. Thats basically how u were going in this thread and still are.

[nogod2006]

From Br.lolwatever:

i am quite familliar with that argument
however have u ever heard about the theory of "parallel universes"

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi,

'very good' is not an answer to my question. Can you 'prove' the existence of ANYTHING other than your own mind? Can you prove the existence of what you see? How do you know it is not an image conjured in your mind?

I dislike repeating myself. Please answer my questions directly this time.

and what standard should i use to answer your question

Okay, let me help you out here. The correct answer is NO you cannot 'prove ' that anything you see around you exists. You cannot 'prove' that your own body exists. So you see, according to your limited concept of proof NOTHING around you exists. So why do you restrict your disbelief to God? Why not disbelieve in EVERYTHING you see, hear, smell or taste. According to your limited concept of proof, you cannot prove the existence of ANY of these things.

So essentially what you have done is created a model of proof that necessitates that nothing can be proven, therefore you have defined God out of existence, which means that your disbelief in him is based upon fallacious circular reasoning. Until you re-evaluate your methodology for understanding the universe around you, you will never find proof for the existence of anything, whether Creator or creation. For the believer, every single thing constitutes proof of an Almighty transcendent power who has created us all. You have not arisen out of chaos and been transformed into a being with conciousness for no purpose or by no cause. Contemplate that.

I'll move on to the next step once you get through all that.

Peace.

[جوري]

finally some one who understands my logic
but i can never imagine my self being more straight forward please
pace your self and give them time:happy:

Why not call in Joe as well--our board jester and have your very "logical" giggling posse.....

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

You guys have done a poor job. Just arguments, no proof like he asked for. And the arguments are really bad. I’m just sitting back laughing. All emotion and no logic.

To say its "all" emotion is pretty absurd. So how does chaos create organization?

[nogod2006]

All we ask is not to disrespect anyones beliefs. For example, u said "this" Allah.

When disrespect has become a part of someone's character, they fail to see it. Thats basically how u were going in this thread and still are.

i understand now and i will like to extend my deppest and most sincerest apologies to anyone who was offended by any of my comments
i'll try and be more carefull

[hakkerz]

Hmmm..did anyone read my post?imsad

[جوري]

Hmmm..did anyone read my post?imsad

He is not here to read-- he is experiencing cognitive conservatism only seeking those who attest to his "logic" or lack thereof....

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

i understand now and i will like to extend my deppest and most sincerest apologies to anyone who was offended by any of my comments
i'll try and be more carefull

Ok thanks.
Finally we agree on something!!

[syilla]

actually...why do we want to prove it to him?

is he really interested to know islam? or he just want to refute the existence of god?

if he only wants the fun in refuting....well...guys...i think you are wasting your time...

[naz87]

atheist this question you asked is too easy to answer. if there wasnt a God then where you think we humans came from? not only that, God gave us eyes to see, ears to hear, a brain to think and memorize etc. you think all that happened by itself? i seriously doubt it.

[nogod2006]

i got to go now .my break is over now
hopefully i can continue this discussion later

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

If you would simply acknowledge that when it comes to god “There is no Proof” you would eliminate a lot of empty rhetoric.

ROFL!! When it comes to ANYTHING there is no 'proof'!! Have you NEVER heard of solipsism?! Give me 'proof' for the existence of even one thing beyond your mind.

[hakkerz]

Ok..did ANYONE read my post, from our muslim brothers?lool..better?

I just wanted to know what you thought about the points, good/bad/solid..gimmie feedback ppl!!.lol

Peace

[Woodrow]

There are many theories as to how the universe came about. they all make sense if certain factors are accepted as true. to a person that does not accept those factors, no proof is acceptable.

I accept the fact that Allah(swt) created all. I base this on my belief in his existance. I learned to believe in His existance from historical documentation ascribed to him. I have seen ample verification of enough of the documentations to have no reason to not accept all of it.

[Umar001]

Ok..did ANYONE read my post, from our muslim brothers?lool..better?

I just wanted to know what you thought about the points, good/bad/solid..gimmie feedback ppl!!.lol

Peace

i'll pm u with some feedback since i wanted to reply to it anyway :) but didnt ant to do it on here.

peace

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Again from br. lolwatever:

He asks you, why you ignored his comment. And adds regarding parallel universes:

a. how does that refute wat i said.
b. parallel universe is just a theory.
c. parallel universe has nothign2do with the topic.

[hakkerz]

Yipee..
...Thanks bro, any tips,hints,criticisms are welcomed...

Peace


(and thank you if you didnt want to make apparent my ignorance)

[AnonymousPoster]

warning: this is lolly

salams
in response to nogod2006 i said:

"Perhaps if you knew something about math, you'd understand that it's 100% wrong of you to even suggest that such a probabalistic monstrosity could occur.... simply put... if you take the limit of a probability function that models the existance of this universe - ranging from the bgi bang, to the organistaion fo chaos, to the evolution of all sorts of things to their current states, no mathematicision would argue that the probability literally is not ZERO.

Try disproving that if you wish... based on that, knowing that the probability is literally zero in the limit, surely there's gotta be some sort of intelligent designer behind it all."

I advise you to take a course in math.... you'll learn alot trust me (math is a science btw)

I got a pathetic response from nogod2006 "I'm familiar witht hat argument, hav u hear of parallel universe theories"


The question is:

a. If you're so famililar with that argument, y not reply to it? (And don't tell me "oh but y is so n so mathemtiacian athiest" that doesnt refute the argument).
b. parallel universe is just a theory.
c. parallel universe has nothign2do with the topic... i can use that to my advantage too, but it would go off topic.


now.. nogod2006.... reply to that point.. u seem to hav ignored me totally!

mods pls move this 2 dat thread.. n insure he replies!!!

[hakkerz]

And im confused why can i not read the posts of br. lolwatever?

I havent read anything of his, im confused..it seems interesting

[Pygoscelis]

atheist this question you asked is too easy to answer. if there wasnt a God then where you think we humans came from? not only that, God gave us eyes to see, ears to hear, a brain to think and memorize etc. you think all that happened by itself? i seriously doubt it.

You seem to be mistaking our lack of knowledge of our origins with knowledge thereof.

Just because we can't explain something, just because we don't know something, doesn't mean a God did it, let alone the specific God that you subscribe to.

This is a very well known fallacy some refer to as "the god of the gaps"

[جوري]

You seem to be mistaking our lack of knowledge of our origins with knowledge thereof.

Just because we can't explain something, just because we don't know something, doesn't mean a God did it, let alone the specific God that you subscribe to.

This is a very well known fallacy some refer to as "the god of the gaps"

He affirms in the title of this thread that " Truth= god does not exsist!"
Does that seem to you like someone who lacks knowledge? Or someone very assured that God doesn't exist? No one is asking him to believe in the "specific God that we subscribe to" we ask him that he backs his claims with his form of LOGICAL TRUTH that "our" God doesn't exist......
peace

[i_m_tipu]

i am quite familliar with that argument

We also familiar about the standard u will give reply.

Believe in God is an undeniable faith.

U does not know who created the entire thing that exits.
U does not know whose creation around u help u in order to make u run in every second.
U does not know why there is proof that people worshiping God in every civilization.
U does not know why people believe in God from the beginning of the time.
U does not know what thing gone from a man and make him dead.

I know who created the entire thing that exits. It is Allaah SWT

Can any doctor give a bond sign against any recovery of a simple disease?

The difference between u and me is quite similar to the difference between me and a dead man.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

I have yet to meet an individual that can prove the existence of this unseen entity that is known universally as god. My core beliefs stem from the fact that this world came to be by mere chance and probability. That is why I would to like call out to any one that can prove to me (once and for all) the existence of this so called god ( or maybe gods ……ha-ha).

And I have yet to meet an individual that cannot prove the existence of this unseen entity that is known universally as god. My core beliefs stem from the fact that this world did not come to be by mere chance and probability. You wanna know why? Because I have faith in God, I believe in God. You do not. That is the difference.

P.S please try to use references to prove your points that are based on solid scientific facts

It always cracks me up when aethists use that sentence.

You seem to be mistaking our lack of knowledge of our origins with knowledge thereof.

Just because we can't explain something, just because we don't know something, doesn't mean a God did it, let alone the specific God that you subscribe to.

This is a very well known fallacy some refer to as "the god of the gaps"

And just because we cannot convince you that God exists doesn't mean He doesn't. This is a very well known fact some refer to as "faith".

See how easy it is to turn arguments around?

[------]

:sl:

God exists. Definitely. Who created something as complex as you? As your eyes? All come about by chance right? Think again.

Are you familiar with the Design Argument?

:w:

[InToTheRain]

The title of this thread is suggests that you are completely convinced, upon entering one thinks you would have convincing argument as to why you say this. To my disapointment I find

My core beliefs stem from the fact that this world came to be by mere chance and probability

:uuh: :uhwhat :uhwhat

Im sure the thought of mankind being evolved monkeys seems appeaing to you. I am also sure if Darwin were alive he would he would use Goerge Bush as evidence to this claim, given his intelectual level :offended:

what would you call a guy who says he thinks the McLaren-F1 was created or has a probability of bieng created after a Hurricane comes around, picks up all the debris, then connects the debris together by random chance to leave a McLaren-F1 in Immaculate condition when the hurricane stops.
Would you call him rational? intelligent? clever? NO!...to put it lightly the person has a few screws loose maybe. If you cannot fathom this them how can you say the world as we see it has a probability of occuring?

lol.watever has refuted your claims ubout the use of probability to prove that God doesn't exist but you have ingnored his comments completely even though its most relevant to your claims. Brothers and Sisters should refrain from wasting their time if this guy isn't serious and has only come to feed his ego, let him answer brother lol.watever first.

By the way, your arrogance shows through on your posts:

"for your own sake, stop ( i repeat stop) embarrassing your self"
"so called god"
"good luck on that buddy"
"what are u talking about "buddy""
"again try to prove the exsistence this allaaah haha"
"read my quote again pleeeeeazzze"
"very good
please now proceed and prove the exsistence of this god"

It is clear that whith such a mind set you are not taking an objective look at the responses to your initial post...for your own sake in future I hope you keep an open mind to the responses you get and appear more serious...especially being a new member and all...unless you want to get added to their "Ignore list" of course ;D . I would appreciate it if you consider this advice.

Peace

[S_87]

P.S please try to use references to prove your points that are based on solid scientific facts

what is solidly scientific that man comes from ape? did these solid scientists see their ancestors or something?

[Re.TiReD]

yo!


you gotta open yo mind and listen to the arguments but if you've already made up yo mind....

Truth= god does not exsist!

which by the way is spelt wrong *exist*

then there's no point....this just seems like an onslaught coz if you were actually prepared to find out about God or the lack of you would have read about it....thoroughly.

I mean some people beleive in the big bang...i persoanlly find that ridiculous but what about after the big bang....the order of the universe...its so complex...how can you beleive nobody created it? :?

leaving aside the scientific arguments...how can the world exist with no creator...im sorry but i cant believe a bang...no matter how BIG created it all. :offended:

people who dont beleive in God are atheist right? what is there purpose in life...Im livin to die...what bout you?

[Umm Yoosuf]

people who dont beleive in God are atheist right? what is there purpose in life...Im livin to die...what bout you?

They are dying to live I guess:offended:

[Re.TiReD]

^^^^^ i suppose...wanna hear from them tho.....

[Umm Khalid06]

God: Does He Exist?

God may not be provable through mathematical formulae or properties of physics, but we live in an era where the evidence of God is all around us. Just look through the Hubble Telescope and peer to the edge of the massive cosmos. View the monitor of an electron-scanning microscope and delve into the intricate world of an organic cell. Sit down and read an entire library of information that reveals the complexity of the digital code that turns a fertilized egg into a human being. Study principles of quantum mechanics and investigate the world of extra-dimensionality. Review the nature of your conscience, subconscious, standards of morality, thoughts of religion. Then, try to reconcile all of these realities with a basic theory of randomness. Not believing in God is much more of a “leap of faith” than ever.

i wish that Answers your question :?

[Umm Khalid06]

Does God exist? We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.
I was an atheist at one time. And like most atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, disillusioned people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.

I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.

I am not the only one who has experienced this. Malcolm Muggeridge, socialist and philosophical author, wrote, "I had a notion that somehow, besides questing, I was being pursued." C.S. Lewis said he remembered, "...night after night, feeling whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of England."

Lewis went on to write a book titled, "Surprised by Joy" as a result of knowing God. I too had no expectations other than rightfully admitting God's existence. Yet over the following several months, I became amazed by his love for me.

got this one from the net from a person who was an atheist

[Trumble]

God exists. Definitely. Who created something as complex as you? As your eyes? All come about by chance right? Think again.

In an infinite, or even just very large universe virtually just about anything could "come about by chance" according to simple probability theory. Given a virtually infinite number of chances to happen, something seemingly almost 'impossible' will happen. No proof of God there.. not least because one huge question remains even if you accepted the argument from design - where did God come from? It gets you nowhere... unless you come up with a reason for God's existence that is no more probable than the stuff you claim would be impossible, indeed rather less so.

My personal take on the original question is that there is definitely something out there, within us and everywhere that embraces and nutures everything and ultimately created everything. What that thing is, I don't know, and I don't believe human beings ever can know, we just don't have the capacity to comprehend and understand, so its existence can never be 'proved' by logical means. Maybe some of the great sages and teachers in history have come close to understanding, but never 'proof' only experience. Just about everybody feels it touch at some point during their lives. But, I doubt very much it is a God as believed by the Judeo/Christian/Islamic traditions - like the Buddhist and Taoist traditions they teach an interpretation of that reality; but I happen to believe it a very simplistic one compared to the Eastern religions/philosophies.

Experience is what its all about, and what all of a religious and spiritual persuasion (and indeed everybody else) should strive for. Without that direct experience, experience of God if you like, just following rules written down in a book (whichever book it may be), let alone other people's interpretation of them, amounts to no more than behaving like a sheep. Those words alone mean nothing. They are at best a guidebook, and once their purpose has been achieved they should be joyously abandoned as no longer needed.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I agree to an extent =D

[Umm Khalid06]

what do you mean?:?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

who me? lol
just some few lines...maybe i took it differently...argg nvm im confuzzled lol

[snakelegs]

nogod,
why don't you prove that god doesn't exist? that would be very informative.
hehehe - i don't think you'll make many converts here! ;D

[Umm Khalid06]

good i would like to see that for a change:)

[snakelegs]

good i would like to see that for a change:)

don't hold your breath! :giggling:

[Muezzin]

I have yet to meet an individual that can prove the existence of this unseen entity that is known universally as god. My core beliefs stem from the fact that this world came to be by mere chance and probability. That is why I would to like call out to any one that can prove to me (once and for all) the existence of this so called god ( or maybe gods ……ha-ha).

P.S please try to use references to prove your points that are based on solid scientific facts

How open-minded you are.

[InToTheRain]

don't hold your breath! :giggling:

I think your 51 minutes too late in saying that ;D

[Umm Khalid06]

so how do you prove there is no god?

[Umm Khalid06]

maybe this is what he ment
With all the wars, and orphans, and rampaging illness that cause massive suffering to regular people, and worst children . . . it is very difficult to believe there is a god, or at least if there is one, the kind of god that allows the massive suffering of children would not be one I respect. Better ? - what kind of god ?
The proof in in the pudding, if there is a god, what kind of god is he really ?
got it from some where;D

[Woodrow]

A big error many of us who believe in Allah(swt) make. We often ask the unbeliever to prove that God(swt) does not exist. Unfortunatly, that is an illogical question. It is impossible to prove something does not exist.

Not a person here can prove they do not have a 10 ton purple elephant living in their 3 ounce sugar bowl.

Asking a person to prove something does not exist. Is a question that will only lead to emotionalism and personal attacks. It is a worthless question, unless the intent is to solidify the persons disbelief.

It is our responsibility to give evidence as to why we know God(swt) exists. It is their choice to accept or deny the evidence.

[Umar001]

I would love to see an ongoing experiment, where a glass cup is dropped again and again, just so we can see from now till humans die out, if there is ever within that time period a time where the glass cup breaks in half exact or where the glass cup breaks into small little glass cups.

That would be interesting.

[جوري]

Nogood had his 15 minutes of fame and ran for his life.... never to be seen or heard from again? Gasp!

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I would love to see an ongoing experiment, where a glass cup is dropped again and again, just so we can see from now till humans die out, if there is ever within that time period a time where the glass cup breaks in half exact or where the glass cup breaks into small little glass cups.

That would be interesting.

lol i brought that one up to him earlier with some others. he just did a pick and choose, but still not answering my question lol.

[snakelegs]

A big error many of us who believe in Allah(swt) make. We often ask the unbeliever to prove that God(swt) does not exist. Unfortunatly, that is an illogical question. It is impossible to prove something does not exist.

yes, it is. it is equally illogical for a believer to try to prove that god exists.

[Ijin]

I will resort to a classic that I'm sure Ahmed has seen before:

The bacterial flagellum's stator, rotor, drive-shaft, U-joint, and propeller. It is not convenient that we've given these parts these names - that's truly their function. If you were to find a stator, rotor, drive-shaft, U-joint, or propeller in any vehicle, machine, toy or model, you would recognize them as the product of an intelligent source. No one would expect an outboard motor -- much less one as incredible as the flagellar motor -- to be the product of a chance assemblage of parts. Motors are the product of intelligent design.

Its not very puzzling, try to make the best sense of it.

They are neither the product of intelligent design, nor chance. Natural selection shouldn't be confused with chance.
The rudiments of the flagella motor were already present in the Type III secretion system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretion). The genes for this could easily be copied by bacteria and the principle behind the proteins of the flagellar motor evolved. Not by chance, but by evolution - working from the simple up to the complex, slowly.

[hakkerz]

yes, it is. it is equally illogical for a believer to try to prove that god exists.

Not if you come from a scientific perspective it isnt. In science, experiments never disprove anything, they just prove that something else is more likely to happen. Look at all the theories they have, they dont make another theory invalid or less likely. Therefore theoretically, it is the job on the non-believer to prove that god doesnt exist, and not for us to prove that god does exist. Again this is if you take the scientific perspective.

Tc

Peace

[Ijin]

A blind person will never see the blue sky. For that person there is no way to prove the sky even exists or is blue.

To a non-believer there is no acceptable proof of Gods(swt) existance and for that person God(swt) does not exist, and will not exist.

There is no need to prove the existance of God(swt), a person only needs to accept the Love of God(swt) and the warmth will lead to the proof.

Whether that person will see the sky or not, the composition of the atmosphere and the electromagnetic spectrum are still able to be subjected to scientific scrutiny, and have always been. God, by most accounts, is beyond any sort of scientific testing.

[hakkerz]

Whether that person will see the sky or not, the composition of the atmosphere and the electromagnetic spectrum are still able to be subjected to scientific scrutiny, and have always been. God, by most accounts, is beyond any sort of scientific testing.

Well...yeh..if he was bound by physical science, then he wouldnt be God...Im still trying to understand the point here! God cannot be proved, we know that, we dont think he can either, thats why its faith,belief. Way we see it, if like your mum comes to you when your really young, and says to you, Look darling dont light a match, then you tend not to do it, or suffer the consequences. Most children however wont do it, because they have faith,belief that love (which is not a tangible entity, and as far as proof goes, you cant prove it exists) exists between you and your mum. You know that she cares for you so much, that she wouldnt want to harm you. At times, it doesnt matter if you dont understand why you shouldnt do something, or the reason behind it, you just have so much belief that your mother loves you that you wont do it, no questions asked. Im not trying to say you shouldnt question religion, by all means do, but with most muslims, (or rather maybe i speak for myself), after you have questioned,and then believed, you have an absolute love and faith in your lord, thats all.

Take Care

Peace

[Ijin]

Well...yeh..if he was bound by physical science, then he wouldnt be God...Im still trying to understand the point here! God cannot be proved, we know that, we dont think he can either, thats why its faith,belief. Way we see it, if like your mum comes to you when your really young, and says to you, Look darling dont light a match, then you tend not to do it, or suffer the consequences. Most children however wont do it, because they have faith,belief that love (which is not a tangible entity, and as far as proof goes, you cant prove it exists) exists between you and your mum. You know that she cares for you so much, that she wouldnt want to harm you. At times, it doesnt matter if you dont understand why you shouldnt do something, or the reason behind it, you just have so much belief that your mother loves you that you wont do it, no questions asked. Im not trying to say you shouldnt question religion, by all means do, but with most muslims, (or rather maybe i speak for myself), after you have questioned,and then believed, you have an absolute love and faith in your lord, thats all.

Take Care

Peace

The point that matters to atheists, well to me at least, is the question. "Prove God doesn't exist" comes across similar to "prove unicorns aren't hollow" or "prove fairies don't like to eat cake". There is no premise to begin from, science cannot reach these questions no more than it can reach 'the God question'. So faith in God seems to be on par with faith of hollow unicorns if science if dismissed completely out of hand.
Also, this is probably off topic slightly, but the Darwinian explanation for a child's trust in it's mother can also be explained by evolution. In that children who were disposed to listen to parental advice, likely to be helpful for their experience in the world, would put itself at risk less than a child who didn't. Clearly these children had a higher chance of survival and would perpetuate their advice-taking genes as opposed the children who didn't, who wouldn't listen to their mother about not playing near the lions and so their genes dwindled - leading us today with the overwhelming amount of children with brains accustomed to listening to their mother and other elders when advice is given about matches and such.

[Woodrow]

Whether that person will see the sky or not, the composition of the atmosphere and the electromagnetic spectrum are still able to be subjected to scientific scrutiny, and have always been. God, by most accounts, is beyond any sort of scientific testing.

Sky is basicaly a concept not a provable fact, although we can "see" what is perceived as a "sky". It is a perception rather than a place or thing. No matter high high you go, skyward is still above you. the color blue is only our minds concept of what the vibrations of the emf forces do to the nerve endings of our optic nerves.

It is true that God(swt) is beyond scientific testing. We have to rely on eyewitness accounts. Our proof comes from the validity of those accounts.

You can not scientificaly test that the war of 1812 occured in the year 1812. We believe it did because of historical documentation by people we place trust in. There are many things we know are fact and can not be scientificaly proven. A few examples that have not been mentioned:

The ability to think randomly

If people smell the same odors the same

The concept of a concept

If 2 nonmutualy causative effects occured at the exact same moment

Some things we have to base on observation and the words of witnesses and our own inner abilities.

[hakkerz]

The point that matters to atheists, well to me at least, is the question. "Prove God doesn't exist" comes across similar to "prove unicorns aren't hollow" or "prove fairies don't like to eat cake". There is no premise to begin from, science cannot reach these questions no more than it can reach 'the God question'. So faith in God seems to be on par with faith of hollow unicorns if science if dismissed completely out of hand.
Also, this is probably off topic slightly, but the Darwinian explanation for a child's trust in it's mother can also be explained by evolution. In that children who were disposed to listen to parental advice, likely to be helpful for their experience in the world, would put itself at risk less than a child who didn't. Clearly these children had a higher chance of survival and would perpetuate their advice-taking genes as opposed the children who didn't, who wouldn't listen to their mother about not playing near the lions and so their genes dwindled - leading us today with the overwhelming amount of children with brains accustomed to listening to their mother and other elders when advice is given about matches and such.

Lol...nice explanation. However i wasnt using my comment as an arguement for the existance of God, i was just explaning the fact that firstly belief is what it is, there is no proof. Secondly, how most muslims percieve god. But with darwins theory, (which is outdated and whilst many scientists belive in evolution, very few agree with Darwinism...read what he actually said.lol) Couldnt you assume that, seeing as the majority of people in this world believe in a form of a God, that we have evolved to believe in a God? (yes, i know that doesnt make complete sense, its part of the question.lol)

And, the thing is, with you, i cant really win. If i tell you God is bound by science, then your gona go, well, he cant be god, because he is just like us, so what makes him any greater, etc etc. and if i say he isnt bound by science, then well, wheres the proof, and its like a fairy.

Just one point, i dont know about our belief. We dont see ourselves as being better, or greater or more blessed neccesarily in this life by our belief in God. Its not that if you believe in God then your gonna become a millionaire, or anything physical. Thats why explaning God in a physical sense is hard, because He isnt physical, and we are.lol..im not gona try and convince you either to be honest, im jst trying to give you an insight into how we see things. I dont feel sorry for you, dont get me wrong, but my life, my point of it, ultimately, is God, its so hard for me to imagine not having that point,or purpose. What do you see as your purpose being? Its funny coz i sat down and thought about it. My grandad was born, he worked, married, raised a family, died. My dad studied, worked, married, has kids, and well, he will eventually die. I was born, am studying, want to marry,have kids, and well, im gona die wether i like it or not.lol, what makes you carry on living? We all seem to follow the same process, and i dont know, its hard to imagine it all ending there. Thats it? Kabam, and your gone? No sense of fairness or justness for those who had a 'bad' life. Im genuinely asking a question here, not trying to patronise, not trying to force my belief on you...

Take Care Bro

Peace

[Ijin]

There are many perceptions, of course we could take the word sky out of the dictionary and insist everyone stick to strick scientific terminology and nothing would change, but I don't think any of them are credited with as much as God/gods are. God is by all accounts supposed to have sashayed through into the physical world to participate in virgin births, visions, spontaneous events of nature, mind reading etc.
Historical things, while we rely on historical retelling to learn of them, are not beyond scientific possibility. The war of 1812 could happen today within scientific parameters, an army of elephants could be marched over mountains tomorrow if anyone cared to put the effort into it. However, things that God is credited for such a mind reading, virgin births have never been shown as scientifically possible.
So accounts that are shown to be feasible today but with only hearsay I would more likely believe happened than supernatural accounts which have never stood up to scrutiny.

[hakkerz]

There are many perceptions, of course we could take the word sky out of the dictionary and insist everyone stick to strick scientific terminology and nothing would change, but I don't think any of them are credited with as much as God/gods are. God is by all accounts supposed to have sashayed through into the physical world to participate in virgin births, visions, spontaneous events of nature, mind reading etc.
Historical things, while we rely on historical retelling to learn of them, are not beyond scientific possibility. The war of 1812 could happen today within scientific parameters, an army of elephants could be marched over mountains tomorrow if anyone cared to put the effort into it. However, things that God is credited for such a mind reading, virgin births have never been shown as scientifically possible.
So accounts that are shown to be feasible today but with only hearsay I would more likely believe happened than supernatural accounts which have never stood up to scrutiny.

Believe me, belief isnt based upon mircales and historical accounts. Nobody will tell you that because Jesus walked on water, and therefore i believe in God.lol..Its a personal thing. Its hard to explain, but if youve ever been in love. You feel that certainty, that firm belief, that you cant be wrong. That the other person is essential to your life, yet explain it to me, and you cant. Its not tangible, and its hard, if not impossible to explain. Ive been there, and at times you dont know what it is that makes you love, its not how clever the other person is, nor how pretty, bllah blaah.lol..etc. Its just something. Belief in God resembles that in someway, yet lasts a lifetime usually. I know it sounds weird to say, but thats why i cant prove it to you, and thats why i wont attempt to either. Its something you have to reach yourself. I do think everybody has the potential to believe in a God, but at times, there are things that prevent us. I mean, Ibrahim (Abraham) was unable to convince his father God existed and to stop worshiping the idols, and Abraham was a prophet.lol. (No, that story isnt the reason i believe in God.lol) Im studying medicine, and its weird, coz everything i hear, and see makes me believe even more, yet for others its different. For e.g Mitochondrian, they have ribosomes and DNA and are similar to bacteria and bare resemblance to them, therefore some think that that shows we evolved from them, or that at least Mitochondrian did. Fair enough.lol. I dont see it like that. Its a personal feeling to be honest.

Take Care

Peace

[Ijin]

Lol...nice explanation. However i wasnt using my comment as an arguement for the existance of God, i was just explaning the fact that firstly belief is what it is, there is no proof. Secondly, how most muslims percieve god. But with darwins theory, (which is outdated and whilst many scientists belive in evolution, very few agree with Darwinism...read what he actually said.lol) Couldnt you assume that, seeing as the majority of people in this world believe in a form of a God, that we have evolved to believe in a God? (yes, i know that doesnt make complete sense, its part of the question.lol)

And, the thing is, with you, i cant really win. If i tell you God is bound by science, then your gona go, well, he cant be god, because he is just like us, so what makes him any greater, etc etc. and if i say he isnt bound by science, then well, wheres the proof, and its like a fairy.

Just one point, i dont know about our belief. We dont see ourselves as being better, or greater or more blessed neccesarily in this life by our belief in God. Its not that if you believe in God then your gonna become a millionaire, or anything physical. Thats why explaning God in a physical sense is hard, because He isnt physical, and we are.lol..im not gona try and convince you either to be honest, im jst trying to give you an insight into how we see things. I dont feel sorry for you, dont get me wrong, but my life, my point of it, ultimately, is God, its so hard for me to imagine not having that point,or purpose. What do you see as your purpose being? Its funny coz i sat down and thought about it. My grandad was born, he worked, married, raised a family, died. My dad studied, worked, married, has kids, and well, he will eventually die. I was born, am studying, want to marry,have kids, and well, im gona die wether i like it or not.lol, what makes you carry on living? We all seem to follow the same process, and i dont know, its hard to imagine it all ending there. Thats it? Kabam, and your gone? No sense of fairness or justness for those who had a 'bad' life. Im genuinely asking a question here, not trying to patronise, not trying to force my belief on you...

Take Care Bro

Peace

"Couldnt you assume that, seeing as the majority of people in this world believe in a form of a God, that we have evolved to believe in a God? (yes, i know that doesnt make complete sense, its part of the question.lol)"

Well, that really follows on from the children being so suited to taking advice from their elders. With the practical advice such as "don't put your hand in the toaster" comes the not so practical (in my atheist worldview btw) advice such as "God sees and hears everything you do". Probably some other things about Santa and Tooth Faries can be thrown in as well.
The child brain takes them as both as they come without evaluating them, and so sees no reason to doubt either of them. Society as a whole were all children once and unless they grew up in a communist country, would have at some point undergone the same treatment from parents, schools, media and so the belief in God/Shiva/Thor/Whatever sticks until adulthood - when it is once again passed down, and so on.
So what may have originated as a campfire story a long time ago spreads down generations and to neighbours until it becomes religion. Then you have the schisms and different groups end up believing different things - a sort of Chinese Whispers, who teach their children the different things and you have a sect, which in turn becomes another religion altogether.

As for a purpose in life...purposes only come from a higher evolved mind. For someone who believes in a creator god this isn't so much of a problem, but of course I place my stock in the scientific explanations for creation - although NOT random or chance, which evolution isn't at all, it still doesn't include any higher mind, it just happens. So basically I have no purpose.
Not that that means any atheist is going to jump off a cliff. On the contrary, if a person believes they have this life and no other, it would make sense to make the most of it, because there is a lot to make the most of.

[hakkerz]

Thing is, if you have no purpose then its just weird to think about for me, its foreign. You see, i question a lot, my faith included, and i am critical. Im not going to believe anything that is thrown at me, and a muslim, my belief isnt accepted if i just believe because my family were muslims..as the Quran says..and what if your forfeathers followed what was wrong? So, whilst childhood aspect is true, i have taken an active step to finding out more, and what about those who were athiests, and then believed in God, i know loads of people who have converted whose parents didnt believe in God, and it wasnt forced upon them. Another example is the fact that many people in America have now embraced Islam, despite the 9/11 incidents, and the portrayal of Islam by the media. In a society where being a Muslim is in fact not such a good thing, why would people possibly want to think of changing?

I think that without a purpose, on the contrary, why live this life? If we started by chance, why not, when you are drowning, just let yourself drown. We complain of this life, and its evil, and problems. So many people are stressed out by work, and life generally, yet we still cling on for something, for me that is a better day, and that hope as such, for a brighter tomorow, arises from a belief in God. I think its really amazing to be honest, i wish i could be in your mind for a day, just to see how my perception of life would be different.

Subhan Allah..

...Either way, nice hearing your opv, very interesting.

Take care. Peace

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

Nogood had his 15 minutes of fame and ran for his life.... never to be seen or heard from again? Gasp!

I didn't even break a sweat. :cry:

[Umar001]

Brother Hakkerz, I have still to read through your other posts thorolly but I do have a disagreement, please correct me if I have mistaken your view, but you said 'God cannot be proved,'

proved in what way? I don't get it? Meaning we cannot be sure?

[Woodrow]

There are many perceptions, of course we could take the word sky out of the dictionary and insist everyone stick to strick scientific terminology and nothing would change, but I don't think any of them are credited with as much as God/gods are. God is by all accounts supposed to have sashayed through into the physical world to participate in virgin births, visions, spontaneous events of nature, mind reading etc.
Historical things, while we rely on historical retelling to learn of them, are not beyond scientific possibility. The war of 1812 could happen today within scientific parameters, an army of elephants could be marched over mountains tomorrow if anyone cared to put the effort into it. However, things that God is credited for such a mind reading, virgin births have never been shown as scientifically possible.
So accounts that are shown to be feasible today but with only hearsay I would more likely believe happened than supernatural accounts which have never stood up to scrutiny.

virgin births have never been shown as scientifically possible.

Parthogenises is a proven fact. Ever hear of cloning? Dolly the sheep only has a mother and no father.

spontaneous events of nature,

Oddly enough you advocate that happening also. For example the formation of matter. Then again the Qur'an ONLY MENTIONS a few spontaineous events most events in the Qur'an are provable or can be shown the one we do not presently have proof of are plausable. Our difference will be in why they occured not if they did or did not occur.

[hakkerz]

Brother Hakkerz, I have still to read through your other posts thorolly but I do have a disagreement, please correct me if I have mistaken your view, but you said 'God cannot be proved,'

proved in what way? I don't get it? Meaning we cannot be sure?

Brother, i didnt intend it in that way. The assumption that proof = certainty i dont agree with. I was talking about physically, as that was what we were discussing. Physical proof of God, i believe, is not present, otherwise, He wouldnt be God. It also means there is no 'test' because proof of God means you dont have to believe. Its like me saying, there is a table infront of, me and then going, believe there is a table infront of me, youve removed the element of belief. In turms of can we be sure, or yaqeen, as it is referred to (certainty), then yes, you can achieve that, and i am more certain of the existance of Allah, than that my 'belief' lol, that the table exists. I dont know if you share the same opinion, either way, thanx for the comment, take care.

Remembering you in my Duaas, and asking for rememberance in yours..

Ahmad

[snakelegs]

Not if you come from a scientific perspective it isnt. In science, experiments never disprove anything, they just prove that something else is more likely to happen. Look at all the theories they have, they dont make another theory invalid or less likely. Therefore theoretically, it is the job on the non-believer to prove that god doesnt exist, and not for us to prove that god does exist. Again this is if you take the scientific perspective.

Tc

Peace

god cannot be proven. belief in god is belief - it requires no proof.
religion is a different system than science, not lesser - only different.
so it is no-one's job to prove god exists or doesn't exist.
i believe in god - do i have "proof"? of course not - the question makes no sense.

[Ijin]

I think that without a purpose, on the contrary, why live this life? If we started by chance, why not, when you are drowning, just let yourself drown.

The question could be turned around and asked to a theist - if someone believes in an eternal afterlife then why not hurry the process along? But very few people, theist or atheist would just go without a fight so neither theory really holds any water.

[i_m_tipu]

religion is a different system than science

religon tell u who r u, who created all the thing, what is ur way of life etc..

Remember today’s scientific proof can be proven garbage tomorrow.
So nothig is abosulate in science.

Science tiring to know the creation which already created

everything of science depend on the creation which already created long before than any could imagine.

hard to understand people following science:giggling: not the creator????

[*noor]

Assalaamu alaikum

Belief in Allah is based on faith. If you look around you at Allah's creations, there is clear evidence that God exists. I'm sure that everything didn't just create itself.

[جوري]

The question could be turned around and asked to a theist - if someone believes in an eternal afterlife then why not hurry the process along? But very few people, theist or atheist would just go without a fight so neither theory really holds any water.

Greetings
Yup..... but what is your fight for? ephmeral pleasures of this world? or eternal pleasures of the next? I think theists are a bit more far sighted.... that is all....better planners......:)

[Caller الداعي]

aslam ala mun itabal huda!!!
Truth Revealed
A Professor walks in the class and asks, "Has any one of you seen God? Has any one of you touched God? Therefore God doesn't exist".
A Student stands up and addresses the class, "Has any one of you seen Professor's brain? Has any one of you touched Professor's brain? Therefore..."

The universe exists. We are here. The birds sing, the wind blows, the stars shine. Why do things exist, instead of nothing? Is the universe eternal or was it created by God? If it was created by God, then is it One God or many Gods ? Of the hundreds of religions, which one is true? These are questions raised since antiquity.
Can we arrive at definite answers? And after arriving at the 'truth', are we brave enough to accept and follow it? Let the quest for truth begins...

For the paragraphs below, follow the relevant segment in the flow chart to the accompanying this article

Is the Universe Infinitely Old?
To answer this question, let's see if the concept of actual infinity itself is true.

Self-Evident Assumptions
1) Impossible for anything to possess two contradictory attributes simultaneously.
2) When a body is added to one of the two equal bodies, the one receiving the addition becomes greater than it was before, hence the greater of the two bodies.[1]

Now If...
a = infinity and
b = infinity + 1 = infinity. 'b' should be bigger than "a", see assumption #2
Therefore we have two infinities !, one is bigger than the other; 'b' is both equal to 'a' and simultaneously bigger than 'a', Which is absurd. Therefore, actual infinity doesn't exist. See assumption # 1. Also... What is infinity minus 1, or plus one, or infinity minus infinity. Thus, the concept of infinity leads to all kinds of absurdities.

Conclusion
Therefore actual infinity doesn't exist, see # 1. It is impossible to continue subtracting numbers (Or segments of time) to reach negative 'infinite', and likewise it is impossible to add up numbers (or segments of time) to reach positive 'infinite' future.

Aristotle states: "Though we can imagine infinite, it is impossible for it to actually exists"[2]

David Hilbert, the greatest mathematician of this century likewise states, "The infinite is nowhere to be found in reality. It neither exist in nature nor provide a legitimate basis for rational thought...the role that remains for the infinite to play is solely that of an idea..." [3]

Scientific Confirmation of Universes' Beginning
Big Bang: Edwin Hubble's discovery in 1929 of the red shift in light from distant galaxies implies that the universe is expanding. 'If we trace this expansion back in time, the universe becomes an infinitely dense point. An infinite density is synonymous with 'nothing'. Cambridge astronomer Fred Hoyle points out, 'the Big Bang theory requires the creation of matter from nothing'.[4]

Second Law of Thermodynamics: 'Processes taking place in a closed system always tend to move towards a state of equilibrium (entropy)'. The universe is a gigantic closed system (since it is everything that there is, and no energy is being fed into it from outside). Therefore, this Law implies that given enough time, the universe will reach a state of thermodynamic equilibrium, known as "heat death" of the universe.[5]

Since the universe is not now in a state of heat death, it means it is not infinitely old.

Therefore the universe had a beginning (it is 'temporal').

Who created the universe?
Self-Evident Assumptions
1) Everything that begins to exist has a cause of its existence.[6]
2) Out of nothing comes anything.
3) Only an existing entity can cause a change or produce something.
4) Infinite succession of events doesn't exist, because actual infinity doesn't exist in reality.

Conclusions
a) Can it be by no one: Impossible. See assumption # 2
b) Can it be itself: impossible. See #3
c) Can it be another temporal entity: yes, but who then created this Second temporal entity; you can take this chain of causes back to infinity. But that's not possible, see #4. Therefore, you reach an 'entity' that doesn't need anyone to push it into existence. An entity that created the universe and itself was uncaused. We call this entity "Necessary to exist".
d) Can it be by a 'Necessary to exist': Yes, see the above point.

Attributes of this 'Necessary to exist'...
1) Creator
2) Eternal
3) Independent

We will add more attributes later.

This 'Necessary to Exist' is God!

How many Gods?
Many, 3 in 1 (Trinity), or Only One

Self-evident Assumptions
1) If 'x' has all the properties as 'y', then 'x' is the same entity as 'y' - The principle of Indiscernibility of Identities.[7]
2) For two items to have separate entities, they have to be different in at least one property.
3) Impossible for two contradictory attributes to exist in an entity, simultaneously.
4) A physical body is dependent on the space it is occupying. No space = no physical body.
5) For an entity to change in form, it has to be made of parts. The parts have to rearrange to assume this new form.
6) Anything that is made of parts needs someone to assemble the parts; therefore dependent on someone outside.
7) If made of parts, then it was not in the present form before. The old unassembled form disappeared and the new assembled form now exists, hence its only 'Temporal'.
8) Removing a portion from an entity makes that entity less whole; therefore not perfect (anymore).
9) If someone produces an entity, it means that this entity is not independent.

Conclusions
a) If there are many gods, then they each have to be different from one another in at least one attribute. See # 1. If they are different in attributes, then some lack the attributes the others have. Therefore, some of these gods are missing in least one attribute. Therefore they are not perfect. See # 8. Therefore, they can't be Gods. It is impossible for an all perfect being to be more than One.
b) God does not assume human (or any physical) form. See #4. Therefore, Incarnation of God is impossible.
c) Change of form means composed of parts. Therefore, it is not independent See #6.Therefore God is not made of parts.
d) An entity can't be both dependent and independent simultaneously. see #3. It is Impossible for anyone to be both 100% human (dependent) and 100% divine (independent) simultaneously.
d) God is not begotten. See #9
e) Begetting involves a part of one transferring into other. Therefore God doesn't beget anyone. See #8

Derived Attributes of God
1. Absolutely One
2. Creator
3. Independent, Eternal
4. Formless and Timeless
5. Doesn't come down in physical form
6. Not made of parts
7. Is not begotten
8. Doesn't beget
9. All Powerful
10. All knowing.

Down to Two Religions...
Of the pure monotheistic religions, only two fully recognize the above attributes of God. Judaism and Islam.

Self-Evident Assumptions
1) A Perfect Being doesn't contradict
2) An All-Moral Being doesn't deceive or confuse us.
3) A Perfect Guide, guides us with Clear 'Signs".

Conclusions
a) A true religion must recognize all the above attributes of God
b) Two religions that possess all the above attributes of God can't have contradictions between them. If they contradict, then one or both can't be true. See # 1, and #2
c) A true religion must possess a clear cut distinguishing feature. see #3

Criteria of a Miraculous Feature
1. If this feature (miracle) is produced by God, then none among the creation can match (equal) it.
2. Even the smallest portion of this miracle can't be matched.
3. This miracle should come down to us in an unaltered, pure form.
4. This miracle should be available to us to examine.

Judaism Examined
Miracles related in the Old Testament can't be witnessed by us now, to test or match them.

a) The oldest complete written copy of the old Testament is only from 900 AC (After Christ).[8]
The complete Old Testament hasn't been memorized in successive generations and hasn't reached us in that form.
Therefore doesn't satisfy criteria #3 and #4
b) If the miracles happened in the distant past and those records haven't comedown to us (from the time of the event to our time) in a pure and unaltered form, how can we be certain that they actually happened? Therefore neither the Old Testament or its miracles satisfies the above criteria.

Islam Examined
Islam proclaims the Quran, the revelation given to Prophet Muhammad (P), as that miracle.

A) The complete Quran was memorized since its inception and this method was maintained in successive generations by millions to our present time in an unaltered and pure form. Muslims recite the Quran from memory in their five daily prayers. Satisfies Criteria #3.
B) At least two written copies from initial times are preserved to our day.[9]
Therefore satisfies criteria #3.
C) Quran as revealed in Arabic is available in an unaltered and pure form in our hands for examination. Satisfies Criteria #4
D) God challenges any doubters to produce a book as perfect as the Arabic Quran.[10]
This challenge is open to all, and for all times. Satisfies criteria #1
E) God challenges the unbelievers to match even a single chapter of the Arabic Quran.[11] Satisfies criteria #2

Scientific Miracles in the Quran
Since Quran is the word of our Creator for all humanity, it gives us a hint about how the universe came about and how it is organized.
a) Big Bang: "Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together then We split them apart..." [12] ("We" is the Arabic plural of respect and not the Christian plural of trinity)
b)Expanding Universe: "And the firmament, we constructed with power and skill and verily We are expanding it".[13]



Conclusion
The best gift of God to us is our mind. Using which, we have successfully proven that the universe had a beginning and the cause of it was God. This God is One, Omniscient, Omnipotent, independent, doesn't beget and the rest of the attributes. Furthermore it was proven that out of the maze of hundreds of religions, only Islam fully satisfied all the derived attributes of God and posses a testable unique and unalterable miracle, which is a complete guidebook for all Humankind. Quran, along with the example of Prophet Muhammad (P), provides solutions to problems plaguing the world.

Now we can shun the above truths and continue following our ancestral religions. But then, we have to shun rationale too and be plagued by it for the rest of our lives, and regret it on the Day of Judgment. Or we could accept Islam, the revealed Truth, and preserve our rational.

Welcome to Islam.



Notes
1. Al-Kindi, On First Philosophy. pg. 67-73.

2. Aristotle, Physica, 3. 4-8. 202b30-208a20.

3. David Hilbert, "On The Infinity", in Philosophy of Mathematics, ed. Paul Benacerraf and Hilary Putnam, 1964. pg 151.

4. William Craig, "The Existence of God and the Beginning of the Universe". Truth: A Journal of Modern Thought, 3 (1991) pg. 85-96

5. Ibid.

6. William Craig, The Kalam Cosmological Argument, pg.63

7. Thomas Morris, Understanding Identity Statements, Chap. 6

8. Jimmy Williams, President of Probe Ministries International, "Are the Bible Documents Reliable", pg 2 (www.leaderu.com)

9. Abdur-Raheem Green "On the Inimitability and Authenticity of the Quran" pg. 1 (www.debate.domini.org/rws/green02.html)

10. Quran: Chapter 17, verse 88

11. Quran: Chapter 2, verse 23

12. Quran: Chapter 21, verse 33

13. Quran: Chapter 51, verse 47

[hakkerz]

The question could be turned around and asked to a theist - if someone believes in an eternal afterlife then why not hurry the process along? But very few people, theist or atheist would just go without a fight so neither theory really holds any water.

Well..no, because we have a point to live. Our point is to work in this life, for the next. Only once we have reached perfection, do we not fear death, as is said in the Quran to the Jews..."and wish upon yourselves death if you are truethful(in your belief of Allah)"

So, no, it cant be flipped around. If i told you that no matter how much you study and work, you will never get into university, or get the job you want etc..you dont bother, because there is no point to it all. Similar situation.

Take Care Bro

Peace

[*noor]

Well..no, because we have a point to live. Our point is to work in this life, for the next. Only once we have reached perfection, do we not fear death, as is said in the Quran to the Jews..."and wish upon yourselves death if you are truethful(in your belief of Allah)"

So, no, it cant be flipped around. If i told you that no matter how much you study and work, you will never get into university, or get the job you want etc..you dont bother, because there is no point to it all. Similar situation.

Take Care Bro

Peace

well said!

[Pygoscelis]

:sl:
And just because we cannot convince you that God exists doesn't mean He doesn't. This is a very well known fact some refer to as "faith".

Yes. I agree entirely. If you look at the post I was responding to you will see that I never inferred otherwise.

[Pygoscelis]

The fact of the matter is that nobody can prove that God exists or does not exist. Lots of people try and fail but no theist has ever proven that God exists to the scientific satisfaction of a non believer and no non believer has ever proven to a theist that God doesn't exit.

It is all a matter of faith within those who either believe God exists or believe there is no God. The only ones working sans faith are those agnostics or atheists who LACK a belief in god but don't pretend to know that there is no god (note the difference between the two).

BTW, at what post count do I stop being a "limited member" and gain the ability to edit my posts?

[*noor]

The fact of the matter is that nobody can prove that God exists or does not exist. Lots of people try and fail but no theist has ever proven that God exists to the scientific satisfaction of a non believer and no non believer has ever proven to a theist that God doesn't exit.

It is all a matter of faith within those who either believe God exists or believe there is no God. The only ones working sans faith are those agnostics or atheists who LACK a belief in god but don't pretend to know that there is no god (note the difference between the two).

BTW, at what post count do I stop being a "limited member" and gain the ability to edit my posts?

actually there is proof....whether we see it or not is in our faith...but everyone will see it sooner or later....later meaning judgement day

you need 50 posts to become a full member

[Woodrow]

A very interesting paradox. Belief in Allah(swt) is based upon faith. the scientific community contends that faith is insufficient to justify belief. Yet, scientific testing is based on the faith that the testing will give the same results all the time.

Looking at the simplist scientific test, Limus Paper. We all know that blue litmus paper will turn red in the presence of a base and Red litmus paper will turn blue in the presence of an acid. we have faith that litmus paper will always do that, we have faith that the results will never reverse, we have faith that there are no exceptions. Scientists will accept that faith, yet will deny the validity of faith in Allah(swt)

[Joe98]

Scientists will accept that faith, yet will deny the validity of faith in Allah

No, a lot of scientists believe in God. Who led the scientific world 1,200 years ago?

[Woodrow]

No, a lot of scientists believe in God. Who led the scientific world 1,200 years ago?

I stand corrected. Many scientists are very religious. I made a poor choice in my wording.

[Pygoscelis]

I always found it interesting that science is very much an offspring of religion, the first scientists were priests. Even the first geneticists were clergy (ie, see Mendel). Yet somewhere along the line at some point science became the frankenstein monster of religion and hardcore religionists started to hate science.

Now we have almost instinctual polarization of theists against scientific theories such as evolution (though there are some theists who will view evolution and creation as not in conflict, many do see them as in conflict). Its an interesting circle.

[Woodrow]

I always found it interesting that science is very much an offspring of religion, the first scientists were priests. Even the first geneticists were clergy (ie, see Mendel). Yet somewhere along the line at some point science became the frankenstein monster of religion and hardcore religionists started to hate science.

Now we have almost instinctual polarization of theists against scientific theories such as evolution (though there are some theists who will view evolution and creation as not in conflict, many do see them as in conflict). Its an interesting circle.

Quite true. It has come to the point that many people with religious beliefs have come to view science as being a synonom for atheism. That was the error I made in my post.

[------]

:sl:

God exists. Definitely. Who created something as complex as you? As your eyes? All come about by chance right? Think again.

Are you familiar with the Design Argument?

:w:

? ? ?

[Woodrow]

Just some food for thought. The concept of a god was brought up many thousnds of times by the pagans. Each of these gods was a concept to explain some thing unknown. Each and every one of those gods had very human or animal charecteristics. each can and was identified by the source of the concept. They have readily been shown to be mental imageries of physical objects.


Out of all the concepts of god only one concept of a creator with no begining and no end has ever been thought of. The concept of a God with no physical body and no need of one. An eternal god with no material body and unseen to humans. This is only the God(swt) of Abraham and of the prophets. Quite a giant step compared to the human concepts as to what a god should be. How could a concept as unbelievable as that ever be made into a viable belief by anyone? It would be far easier to believe a golden calf has godly powers than to believe that an invisible, eternal being was the Creator.

Unless, that Being had revealed himself to some people of indisputable honesty. Which is what we say Allah(swt) did. To me that is further evidence of the existance of Allah(swt). I can not believe that any primative human would have had the ability to sell the people on the idea of an invisible God(swt) unless that was true and He had revealed Himself so that all people could come to know Him(swt).

[- Qatada -]

Atheists say that it's illogical to believe in a God. But if something within this world can't be created by itself [i.e. a simple building], they say its easier to believe that this whole world only came by chance?

This seem's more illogical because believing in a Creator is much more easier than believing that the advanced universe was created by no-one.


The argument doesn't have to go any further than that because just like some atheists find the argument of perfection, and Allaah's creation weak, the believers find it even harder to believe in the theory of evolution.

Believing in a theory is just like having faith in a religion. Because the person can't prove that people evolved from tiny microbes. Yet the idea of believing that one man and one woman [Adam and Hawwa [Eve] (peace be upon them) were created, and them having an offspring which increases as time progresses is much more easier to believe. It's as simple as that.



Then you ask, what way of life must be the truth? The Creator created us for a purpose, and that is so we obey Him. The higher someone is in the hierarchy system, the more likely the people lower in the hierarchy will have to obey. But man is arrogant, he thinks he's self sufficient - yet he doesn't realise that if Allaah wanted to, He could withhold the rain from the clouds so the person would die within a few days.

Is this the same God that people say is Power hungry? Don't you know that if you submit to your Creator and repent to Him for your errors - He will send upon you even more blessings?



This world is a testing ground, and every action we do - we are responsible for it. Whether we like that or not. Those who repent for their mistakes in this world and feel guilt for their actions, then realise that Allaah is the Most Merciful. But those who reject their Creator, and His messengers - they too should realise that they will die one day, and everything will return back to its Lord, the Creator of the food that you eat and the water that you drink. And Allaah is swift in punishment.

That will be the day when Allaah will judge between us, and every soul ever created. Every atom of good that you do will be shown, and every atom of evil that you do will also be seen. Those who believed and did good will be rewarded for what they did in this world, and those who rejected their Creator will be punished because they rejected the Most Forbearing Allaah, His messengers and were ungrateful to Him.


The day when they will be thrown into a fire, because they rejected their Creator. So this day, Allaah will reject them.

Allaah loves those who turn back to Him in this world, sincerely.. He will bless them more in this world, They will have nothing to fear on the day of judgement, Allaah will give them whatever they desire in the eternal paradise and they will be able to see Him, the Lord of the worlds.



Allaah Almighty know's best.

[Pygoscelis]

Out of all the concepts of god only one concept of a creator with no begining and no end has ever been thought of.

I very much doubt that, given the millions of Gods that have been believed in throughout history, remembered and forgotten. It is quite a claim to be making.

[جوري]

I very much doubt that, given the millions of Gods that have been believed in throughout history, remembered and forgotten. It is quite a claim to be making.

Who are these millions of G-D's? There has always been one ... some people have found idolatry more approachable or believable than the one G-D so they created statues and slapped names on to them danced around and worshipped them due to this innate need to worship or at least to find answers. I believe it is the same reason that has led you here?.... All throughout history ... messengers whose names we know and some we don't have come to show people the way ... hundreds and even thousands of years apart attesting to the same one G-D... I don't know how these folks in more primitive times could come with the same message over and over without some divine inspiration?.... I sense your reluctance but not full opposition to religion ... why not read the Noble Quran and come back and tell us what you think?
peace

[Trumble]

I agree, its one God (or aspects of God) with many names, not many gods. Where I would disagree, as you know, is what that God is or represents, and hence what 'divine inspiration' actually is.

[Pygoscelis]

[INDENT]Atheists say that it's illogical to believe in a God. But if something within this world can't be created by itself [i.e. a simple building], they say its easier to believe that this whole world only came by chance?

Not believing in God, especially a specificly named God, does not necesarily mean believing that the world came about by chance (ponder that one). Nor does it necesarily mean not believing in a creator, sentient or otherwise.

This seem's more illogical because believing in a Creator is much more easier than believing that the advanced universe was created by no-one.

Ease of belief doesn't make something more or less likely. In ancient times I bet people would have had a much easier time believing that the earth was flat than round.

Believing in a theory is just like having faith in a religion.

That depends on what you mean by "believing in a theory". If somebody clings to the theory of evolution and ignores or discards any evidence to the contrary out of devotion to the theory then yes, I would agree, it is very much like religious belief.

Scientists who are worth their salt are not like this. Science is based on the revision or discarding of a theory once a better theory comes along that fits the observed phenomena better.

Is this the same God that people say is Power hungry? Don't you know that if you submit to your Creator and repent to Him for your errors - He will send upon you even more blessings?

Well if he's the creator he's entitled to lord over you I suppose. It still seems awfully master/servant to me though. I and many atheists like me wouldn't submit to Allah even if we believed that he existed (or so we believe, can't really know for sure since we don't believe he exists).

Call it pride, call it arrogance, call it what you wish, but we simply place too high a value on freedom and self direction to enslave (i'm sorry if that word is offensive but I can't think of a less offensive one with the same meaning) ourselves to ANYTHING, not a King, not even a God. We are the masters of our own selves. Maybe thats a major difference between theists and atheists, the importance we place on freedom and self ownership.

This world is a testing ground, and every action we do - we are responsible for it. Whether we like that or not. Those who repent for their mistakes in this world and feel guilt for their actions, then realise that Allaah is the Most Merciful. But those who reject their Creator, and His messengers - they too should realise that they will die one day, and everything will return back to its Lord, the Creator of the food that you eat and the water that you drink. And Allaah is swift in punishment.

I'd like to know how this works in Islam. If I do something wrong to somebody, am I expected to seek their forgiveness or only that of Allah? In Christianity I am disgusted by the notion that it is God's forgiveness and not the person I've wronged that matters most. I hate the idea in Christianity that belief and subservience to God is just as or even more important than being good to my fellow humans.

[Woodrow]

I very much doubt that, given the millions of Gods that have been believed in throughout history, remembered and forgotten. It is quite a claim to be making.

Not that much of a claim. If the claim had been presented by another goup of people it seems it's uniqueness would have caused quite a stir.


It is true that from a debate stand point it is an error to say something is a singularity, impossible, always or never.

[جوري]

it seems our dear member "Pygoscelis" seems to think we worship a "specificly named God" as I notice it, mentioned over and over in several of his posts. I need to ask. What do you notice is the difference between
Allah, God, Dios, 上帝, Dieu, Gott, Θεός, 神, Бог? Do you think they are different entities or just the one God many different tongues? Lord of the universe, one message for ALL OF MAN KIND, no one is excluded and no one is favored? I really would like a sincere answer for that Question, as Allah to us is basically God to you in English. The only difference would be whereas you can engender or make plueral the word God you can't with Allah (SWT). There is no Gods and no Goddess... Just lord of the universe, heaven and earth and what is in between. Same God for all of man kind......

[- Qatada -]

Not believing in God, especially a specificly named God, does not necesarily mean believing that the world came about by chance (ponder that one). Nor does it necesarily mean not believing in a creator, sentient or otherwise.

Allaah is the name of God, the Creator in arabic because it's the best wording a person can use. Whereas the term 'god' can be used to give God a gender (i.e. goddess) or pluralise (i.e. gods) or even other aspects such as 'godfather, godmother' etc. However, in arabic - Allaah just means 'the God' and it cannot be classed as a gender, nor can it be pluralised, and neither can it be related to father, mother etc.

Ease of belief doesn't make something more or less likely. In ancient times I bet people would have had a much easier time believing that the earth was flat than round.

They may have, but this still doesn't differ. As long as humanities existed, the majority of mankind has always believed in a Creator. No matter what they labelled Him, the difference between them is that they differ on whether He should be worshipped, or if He should be worshipped with associates or not.

This is why islaam is totally different to the other faiths - because worshipping Him alone without seeing Allaah without guidance is a hard task. Some fell into the trap of worshipping idols, others worshipped humans even though they believed in the Creator. They did it because they felt they needed a focusing point which they could visualise.


However, with the guidance from the messengers of Allaah - man isn't really in need of seeing his Creator in this world because reflecting on the creation is sufficient to believe in a Creator.

We don't have the exam results, but we can reflect on the previous exam papers to realise the consequences of the ones who have failed.

That depends on what you mean by "believing in a theory". If somebody clings to the theory of evolution and ignores or discards any evidence to the contrary out of devotion to the theory then yes, I would agree, it is very much like religious belief.

Scientists who are worth their salt are not like this. Science is based on the revision or discarding of a theory once a better theory comes along that fits the observed phenomena better.

The scientists that predict these theories weren't alive millions of years ago. Therefore their proofs aren't strong. Similarly, i wasn't alive when Adam and Hawwa (peace be upon them) were in this world, so like i said earlier - both parties depend on faith.

Well if he's the creator he's entitled to lord over you I suppose. It still seems awfully master/servant to me though. I and many atheists like me wouldn't submit to Allah even if we believed that he existed (or so we believe, can't really know for sure since we don't believe he exists).

Call it pride, call it arrogance, call it what you wish, but we simply place too high a value on freedom and self direction to enslave (i'm sorry if that word is offensive but I can't think of a less offensive one with the same meaning) ourselves to ANYTHING, not a King, not even a God. We are the masters of our own selves. Maybe thats a major difference between theists and atheists, the importance we place on freedom and self ownership.

I'm proud to be a slave of Allaah because theres nothing better any person could be. The Creator has a right over His servants because the purpose of the creation is to obey Allaah, and in return get rewarded for it - in this life and the hereafter, and the one's who disobey and reject Him will be punished in this life and the hereafter.

If you seriosly think you obey no-one, realise that your obeying the nation that you're living under. This president or prime minister that legislates a law, he/she may have commanded you something which you might oppose personally. But either way, you have to obey this law because if you disobey and get busted, realise that you will be punished for your crime.


Who gave the prime-minister the right to do that? Is it because he's from a more richer family than you, more knowledgable than you - so he has the right to apply and reject laws? If you feel that it's fair, then this person has the right to abuse his/her powers and force you to do what you hate. If you want to drive at 160mph, and the laws say otherwise - you're actually obeying the government because they legislated that. Is that the real freedom that you desire? Isn't this going against the freedom that the atheists desire?

I'd like to know how this works in Islam. If I do something wrong to somebody, am I expected to seek their forgiveness or only that of Allah? In Christianity I am disgusted by the notion that it is God's forgiveness and not the person I've wronged that matters most. I hate the idea in Christianity that belief and subservience to God is just as or even more important than being good to my fellow humans.

If you do something wrong, part of the repentance process is to tell the person you're sincerely sorry, be regretful of your action and repent to Allaah because you disobeyed His legislation. If a person is sincere in their repentance, Allaah may even forgive the persons sins and turn them into good deeds.




Allaah Almighty know's best.




Peace.

[Grace Seeker]

I have yet to meet an individual that can prove the existence of this unseen entity that is known universally as god. My core beliefs stem from the fact that this world came to be by mere chance and probability. That is why I would to like call out to any one that can prove to me (once and for all) the existence of this so called god ( or maybe gods ……ha-ha).

P.S please try to use references to prove your points that are based on solid scientific facts

If I may, I would prefer to ask a question. Do you attribute some human endeavors to be good and others to be bad? If so, then what is the standard you use to determine that which is good? You answer this, and then maybe we can talk about God.

[Grace Seeker]

Call it pride, call it arrogance, call it what you wish, but we simply place too high a value on freedom and self direction to enslave (i'm sorry if that word is offensive but I can't think of a less offensive one with the same meaning) ourselves to ANYTHING, not a King, not even a God. We are the masters of our own selves. Maybe thats a major difference between theists and atheists, the importance we place on freedom and self ownership.

But as you alluded to one does not have to believe in a God to believe in a creator. So one does not have to give up freedom when choosing to serve Allah or God or for that matter a person. One who freely chooses to serve always has the option to choosing to quit serving. Submission is a willingness to exercise one's freedom to serve gladly. But it is not loss of freedom for such submission is not under compulsion.

I'd like to know how this works in Islam. If I do something wrong to somebody, am I expected to seek their forgiveness or only that of Allah? In Christianity I am disgusted by the notion that it is God's forgiveness and not the person I've wronged that matters most. I hate the idea in Christianity that belief and subservience to God is just as or even more important than being good to my fellow humans.

Actually that is a mis-statement of the concept of forgiveness and responsibility for one's actions in Christianity. Love of neighbor and love of God are equally commanded in both Christianity and Judaism before it. In the Christian way of thinking, "Sin" is that which separates an individual from God. It isn't just a specific act, it could be the lack of an act one should have performed, a thought, anything that stands between you and who God calls you to be. Some of these actions also impact other human beings for God calls us to live in constructive human relationships with one another.

Jesus (pbuh) told his followers to actually leave their gift at the altar and go and seek reconcilation with those that we have offended before continuing to worship, and then to come back and offer our gift to God. So, you can see the high value placed on the horizontal relationship between individuals, not just a verticle relationship with God.

However, it is also true that when one does not follow God's directed will toward others that we not only destroy those relationships with people, we also damage our relationship with God. Now if you think it ridiculous to seek God's forgiveness for what we do to people, how much more so would it not also be ridiculous to seek people's forgiveness for what we have done to God. No amount of apologizing to human beings is going to atone for the damage done to the intended relationship God seeks to have with us as God's creation. When what we do breaks our relationship with God, it is God to whom we need to apologize and from whom need to seek forgiveness.

[Pygoscelis]

Do you think they are different entities or just the one God many different tongues?

I'm sure many of the Gods were reformations of earlier Gods, but I'm also sure some are completely unique. The Aztecs for example had no communication with the Egyptians so their pantheons of gods are likely not derivitive of each other.

When I say a specifically named God I mean just that. Allah, Jehova, Thor, Bast, Mithras, whoever. Each theistic religion has their own conception of God or Gods and most have VERY specific claims about who or what they are, what they demand, what they dislike etc.

It is a huge step to go from "The world was created" to "The creator was sentient" and then another big one from that to "The creator is divine" and another big step to "The God is named W and wants me to worship on the holy day X three times and do action Y and not do action Z"

[Pygoscelis]

Allaah is the name of God, the Creator in arabic because it's the best wording a person can use. Whereas the term 'god' can be used to give God a gender (i.e. goddess) or pluralise (i.e. gods) or even other aspects such as 'godfather, godmother' etc. However, in arabic - Allaah just means 'the God' and it cannot be classed as a gender, nor can it be pluralised, and neither can it be related to father, mother etc.

Interesting. But I don't know why you posted it under the text you quoted?

They may have, but this still doesn't differ. As long as humanities existed, the majority of mankind has always believed in a Creator.

Which says nothing to whether or not such a creator exists.

The scientists that predict these theories weren't alive millions of years ago. Therefore their proofs aren't strong.

This simply makes no sense. How does their age effect the strength of their theories? As to their "proofs", science doesn't set out to prove anything, just to come up with the theories that best explain the observations.

I'm proud to be a slave of Allaah

Cultural difference perhaps. I simply could not become a slave. I value freedom too much for that.

If you seriosly think you obey no-one, realise that your obeying the nation that you're living under. This president or prime minister that legislates a law, he/she may have commanded you something which you might oppose personally. But either way, you have to obey this law because if you disobey and get busted, realise that you will be punished for your crime.

I live in a democracy, not a dictatorship. I actually have a say in what those laws are. I also have the freedom to leave my country if I so wish and not be tortured as a result.

Even if I do stay in my country and break the law, my country will not resort to cruel and unusual punishment or torture (ie hellfire). My country will not punish me forever either. The aim of criminal law here isn't punitive but reformative. The idea isn't to punish wrongdoers because they are evil, but to reform them into being good. Eternal punishment would fly in the face of that.

I'm sorry but the God/Nation analogy is flawed in so many ways.

If you do something wrong, part of the repentance process is to tell the person you're sincerely sorry, be regretful of your action and repent to Allaah because you disobeyed His legislation.

Ah but which is more important? To apologize and make it up to the person you wronged or to repent to Allah?

[Pygoscelis]

If I may, I would prefer to ask a question. Do you attribute some human endeavors to be good and others to be bad? If so, then what is the standard you use to determine that which is good? You answer this, and then maybe we can talk about God.

I'll answer that one even though it wasn't directed at me. I do not believe in inherent good and evil, but only in socially constructive and socially destructive behaviour. I also have some social taboos that have been programmed into me via the society I live in (which are probably not really destructive but are just taboo) such as nudity and taboo words that have no racial or other slur value, such as the F word.

[جوري]

I'm sure many of the Gods were reformations of earlier Gods, but I'm also sure some are completely unique. The Aztecs for example had no communication with the Egyptians so their pantheons of gods are likely not derivitive of each other.

.......Their God were false idolatries.... and Yes God send them messaner (Moses) ( Joseph) to name a few to let the people of the one true creator of the universe... messangers hundreds of years apart essentially stating the same thing. Books made for mass distribution was an invention of the 1500's. Why would random people come speaking of the one God or even risk persecution which they all suffered on the hands of those very reluctant to give up their false dieties?

When I say a specifically named God I mean just that. Allah, Jehova, Thor, Bast, Mithras, whoever. Each theistic religion has their own conception of God or Gods and most have VERY specific claims about who or what they are, what they demand, what they dislike etc."

No! monothesism which encompasses the vast majority of the world religions and population speaks of the same ONE God..... if you research ancient text you'll see the same thing prescribed to all people...

It is a huge step to go from "The world was created" to "The creator was sentient" and then another big one from that to "The creator is divine" and another big step to "The God is named W and wants me to worship on the holy day X three times and do action Y and not do action Z"

I am not sure I understand what you are talking about here? if you notice anything judiasm/ christianity and Islam have in common in spite of differences through the teachings of the messangers, is to believe in one God, to perfom prayers, to fast, to give to charity... same forbidden actions are no different than rules set by society... but you'd follow them out of fear of making it on FBI most wanted list... Just not when it comes to God the one who set the rules forth to begin with........
peace!

[Trumble]

It is a huge step to go from "The world was created" to "The creator was sentient" and then another big one from that to "The creator is divine" and another big step to "The God is named W and wants me to worship on the holy day X three times and do action Y and not do action Z"

It is indeed, and I agree they are steps that are dubious in the extreme.

The fundamental difference between non-believers in this context and followers of the monotheistic religions is faith in revelation, that all three of those steps as set down by assorted prophets and their later interpreters were either given directly or inspired in some way by a sentient divinity.

If you don't believe that, as I (and obviously you) don't, you have no option but to conclude that those 'steps' are creations of men. Those men may well have been particularly spiritually accomplished, and I believe they were, but all we have from them is their own interpretations of their own spiritual experience; in that respect no different from the interpretations of the Buddha, Lao Tzu, Zoroaster and others. It is the same experience - there is only one ultimate reality.

If you do believe it, it has to be a matter faith as such belief must entail 'begging the question'.. you can't believe that a particular revelation, Qu'an, Bible, Torah, whatever, came from God unless you believe in God in the first place. If you do, then those are easy, and indeed totally logical steps to take. But its faith, that's 'all'.

[SirZubair]

I cannot prove to you that God exists.

I have not, and will not bother wasting my time by searching for evidence either.

I am a believer of the Unseen.

I see the Signs of God all around me. Every rain drop, every bird, every Bee, every believer, every non-believer, ever grass, every leaf, every fish in the sea.

You won't see Allah (swt) in this lifetime, you will only be able to see the Signs of the lord of the worlds through his creations.

[united]

What about the origin of life?
Scientists are yet to create a living thing without using another living thing. yes we know all about particles but what exactly is life?

[- Qatada -]

Interesting. But I don't know why you posted it under the text you quoted?

You previosly said

"Not believing in God, especially a specificly named God, does not necesarily mean believing that the world came about by chance (ponder that one)."


Which implied to me that you never understood why we called God, Allaah.

Which says nothing to whether or not such a creator exists.

Your point, again from the earlier post:

"In ancient times I bet people would have had a much easier time believing that the earth was flat than round."


Doesn't hold much strength because thats a historical theory, and has been proved wrong. Whereas the issue of whether there is a Creator or not has always been debateable, and it will remain that way till the day of judgement.

This simply makes no sense. How does their age effect the strength of their theories? As to their "proofs", science doesn't set out to prove anything, just to come up with the theories that best explain the observations.

So their proofs aren't really "proofs" if there's no solid evidence to prove their theory.

Cultural difference perhaps. I simply could not become a slave. I value freedom too much for that.

Whether you believe it or not, you are a slave - whether its to your desires, wealth, the government that you live under.

I live in a democracy, not a dictatorship. I actually have a say in what those laws are. I also have the freedom to leave my country if I so wish and not be tortured as a result.

You do have a say somehow, but if another opinion overrides your opinion - you're stuck in following that order whether you love it or detest it. That is a way of obeying and being a slave of your society.

Even if I do stay in my country and break the law, my country will not resort to cruel and unusual punishment or torture (ie hellfire). My country will not punish me forever either. The aim of criminal law here isn't punitive but reformative. The idea isn't to punish wrongdoers because they are evil, but to reform them into being good. Eternal punishment would fly in the face of that.

Your country won't be able to punish you forever, nor will it be able to give you the punishment of hellfire. The reasons for this are because you're not in this world forever, you will die and they too will die. And what's the worst punishment your country can apply on you? It's simple - death. So they will apply the worst punishment they desire if they so wish, they can even use fire as a form of punishment.

If you feel you're country never applies this law, realise that US - the world's "super-power" applies the death penalty if you commit treason - so this contradicts your statement: "Even if I do stay in my country and break the law, my country will not resort to cruel and unusual punishment or torture." And like i said earlier, no they won't be able to torture you forever, but they may apply the worst "severest" punishment - death, which is one of the worst events some atheists fear.

I'm sorry but the God/Nation analogy is flawed in so many ways.

You havn't proved that at all.

Ah but which is more important? To apologize and make it up to the person you wronged or to repent to Allah?

Both are important, to ask forgiveness from the one you've wronged, give them a present even. Then repent to Allaah because you disobeyed Him (i.e. don't backbite, slander etc.) Simple As.



Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace. :)

[Pygoscelis]

What about the origin of life?
Scientists are yet to create a living thing without using another living thing. yes we know all about particles but what exactly is life?

Good question. And though science has its theories, unlike religionists, many of us non-religious folks DON'T CLAIM TO KNOW. Is admitting you don't know something really so terrible?

[AhlaamBella]

what's terrible is mocking and defying other possible 'theories'.

[Pygoscelis]

"In ancient times I bet people would have had a much easier time believing that the earth was flat than round."


Doesn't hold much strength because thats a historical theory, and has been proved wrong. Whereas the issue of whether there is a Creator or not has always been debateable, and it will remain that way till the day of judgement.

You missed the point. You seemed to be claiming that ease of belief in God was evidence of God's existence. Your post kept talking about how much easier it was to believe than not to. I gave an analogy of something else people found easier to believe, but that was wrong.

So their proofs aren't really "proofs" if there's no solid evidence to prove their theory.

There is evidence of their theory, it just isn't conclusive proof. The evidence of their theory is better than the evidence of any other yet thought up, which is why it remains the predominant theory. If a better theory comes along then this one will be replaced. That's how science works.

You do have a say somehow, but if another opinion overrides your opinion - you're stuck in following that order whether you love it or detest it. That is a way of obeying and being a slave of your society.

You are ignoring the other differences. Even if a law is enacted that I disagree with I still have the choice of leaving the jurisdiction if I object strongly enough.

Your country won't be able to punish you forever, nor will it be able to give you the punishment of hellfire. The reasons for this are because you're not in this world forever, you will die and they too will die.

You're missing the point. My government WOULDN'T punish me forever or with hellfire even if it could, as is clear because it won't punish me for the rest of my life (even life imprisonment isn't for a person's actual lifetime) or torture me, their version of torture obviosly would be less than hell, but they don't even do it.

And what's the worst punishment your country can apply on you? It's simple - death. So they will apply the worst punishment they desire if they so wish, they can even use fire as a form of punishment.

We don't have the death penalty here, as I'm pretty sure is the case in most free democracies.

If you feel you're country never applies this law, realise that US - the world's "super-power" ....

Why do you assume I'm from the backwards nation called the USA? Not all non-muslim english speakers are from there you know.

Both are important, to ask forgiveness from the one you've wronged, give them a present even. Then repent to Allaah because you disobeyed Him (i.e. don't backbite, slander etc.) Simple As.

Both are important sure, but you're not answering the question. Which is more vital? My guess is that Allah is and you're not willing to say so because you know what that means to a non-believer.

[Woodrow]

Although nobody has yet to offer proof of Allah's(swt) existance, that all people will accept. I have so far never seen any alternative proof for the existance of the Universe.

The only proof to show that Allah(swt) does not exist would be to show unquestionable, verifiable proof that the Universe came into being by some other means.

[- Qatada -]

You missed the point. You seemed to be claiming that ease of belief in God was evidence of God's existence. Your post kept talking about how much easier it was to believe than not to. I gave an analogy of something else people found easier to believe, but that was wrong.

No, common sense proves God's existence. It's easier to believe that something was created by someone then believe that it was created by no-one at all. Any example in this world proves that, i.e. buildings, cars etc.

There is evidence of their theory, it just isn't conclusive proof. The evidence of their theory is better than the evidence of any other yet thought up, which is why it remains the predominant theory. If a better theory comes along then this one will be replaced. That's how science works.

So these theories don't really hold much weight, yet you believe them. But religions don't hold much weight either right (according to atheists)? Which kinda means you believe something which hasn't been proved 100%.

So that means i can rightly say that this evolution theory all depends on faith too.

You are ignoring the other differences. Even if a law is enacted that I disagree with I still have the choice of leaving the jurisdiction if I object strongly enough.

All countries within the west don't allow murder right? Where would you go if you wanted to do that?

You're missing the point. My government WOULDN'T punish me forever or with hellfire even if it could, as is clear because it won't punish me for the rest of my life (even life imprisonment isn't for a person's actual lifetime) or torture me, their version of torture obviosly would be less than hell, but they don't even do it.

If a nation can apply the death penalty, which is supposed to be the worst form of punishment [according to some] - then who says that they wouldn't give eternal punishment? What about Solitary confinement?

We don't have the death penalty here, as I'm pretty sure is the case in most free democracies.

Why do you assume I'm from the backwards nation called the USA? Not all non-muslim english speakers are from there you know.

The reason why i use the US as an example is because it is supposed to be the head of the democratic nations, and this is the reason why its so desperate to spread it to other lands.

Both are important sure, but you're not answering the question. Which is more vital? My guess is that Allah is and you're not willing to say so because you know what that means to a non-believer.

I think you don't understand. If part of the repenting process is to ask forgiveness off that person, and also to repent to Allaah - then how can it be said that one is more vital than the other? Both are important, and you're just using your bias from the christianity perspective to attack my point.




Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.

[Pygoscelis]

The only proof to show that Allah(swt) does not exist would be to show unquestionable, verifiable proof that the Universe came into being by some other means.

I don't think even that would disprove Allah or any other God.

I don't think a deity can be proved or disproved.

[جوري]

Greetings Pygoscelis
I don't want to answer what you have addresses another member with.....
but would like to ask you a few q's... 1-how much of Islamic shari'a Law do you know? Have you stories from the times of propher Mohammed (PBUH) to validate your claim that it is in fact "non-democratic" or barberic?
2- I will assume that you have relatives that are dear to you... How would you feel if say your mother or your pregnant daughter were raped or beaten and tortured, chopped into body bags and thrown in the water let's say chrismas eve.. as was done in the case of Ms. Lacy peterson by her husband? DO you still think it is barberic to impose that death penalty on him, or that it is "un-democratic"? Often people think of how heinous the act is of putting someone to death completely forgetting the victims..... I want you to answer that question truthfully, as in what would you do before we proceed.
3- To ask forgivness from God is to pay your dues to the victim, and his family... in Islam it is up to them to forgive..... or ask that you be punished for your crime... punishment for your crime is in a way to give reprieve from your sin...... and ultimately none of us are God to decide whether or not one should be forgiven
4- Lastly please contrast the number of crimes comitted in countries that impose shari'a laws (although I admit there are no states that are islamic) to ones where there is freedom for criminals to commit their acts... sincerely look into how much theft has gone in the US and how much in let's say Saudi Arabia.... and again we can talk about barberism....... Laws are meant to govern soceities and ensure the well beings of its members not to do the converse.. Please reflect deeply on those sentiments before deciding what is barberic and what isn't......
Personally I find debauchery, lewdeness, pornography and other major crimes, very hurtful on an emotional and social level to both myself and family, and the community I live in and serve..... but we are not here to discuss my feelings!
Peace!

[Pygoscelis]

No, common sense proves God's existence. It's easier to believe that something was created by someone then believe that it was created by no-one at all. Any example in this world proves that, i.e. buildings, cars etc.

That just begs the unanswerable question of first cause. If you say that God created us, then who created God? And if you say God just came to be spontaneously or that God is eternal, then you are just making a more fantastic claim than you are refuting.

So these theories don't really hold much weight, yet you believe them. But religions don't hold much weight either right (according to atheists)? Which kinda means you believe something which hasn't been proved 100%.

I think you're missing the point here. I don't believe in evolution the way that you believe in Allah. I'm not 100% certain that evolution is the right theory, in fact I'm not certain at all, not even 25%. I'm pretty sure that the theory of evolution as currently compromised will be adjusted and maybe even turfed entirely when a better theory comes along. Yet the fact remains that for now it is the best theory we have.

All countries within the west don't allow murder right? Where would you go if you wanted to do that?

Why on earth would I want to murder?

But lets look at your question anyway. Any society that functions wouldn't allow murder, that is true, since murder is defined legally as "culpable homocide" or wrongful killing.

If I left my country to live on some uncharted island somewhere I would be free to murder. Of course then the problem would be a lack of people to kill. I bet that if people came and lived with me on that island we'd very quickly establish a pact that we don't murder each other.

So I suppose the only way to Murder without it beling illegal would be to do so in that small period of anarchy before such a pact is formed. And no, I wouldn't want to live in such a place.

[qoute]
If a nation can apply the death penalty, which is supposed to be the worst form of punishment [according to some] - then who says that they wouldn't give eternal punishment? What about Solitary confinement? [/quote]

I'm sure they could. In fact, I'm sure they do. Dictatorships and repressive regimes abound throughout history. This may be why many religions are modelled after them. But these are not places I'd care to live, much as I'd not care to live under a God with eternal torture on his mind.

The reason why i use the US as an example is because it is supposed to be the head of the democratic nations

Perhaps you and I can both agree that this is a false claim by the USA?
If anybody truly believes that the USA is a democracy, much less the head of Democractic nations, I'd wonder if they really knew how the USA functions.

I think you don't understand. If part of the repenting process is to ask forgiveness off that person, and also to repent to Allaah

Part of the process to gain Allah's forgiveness is to apologize to the person you wronged? Is that what you are saying? If so, then the end goal is Allah's forgiveness and not that of the person you wronged, who you are just approaching to get the latter.


Yes, I do have an understanding coming from the Christian viewpoint of how it works. That could mean I have a misunderstanding or ignorance of how it works in Islam. You haven't explained how the Islamic one differs yet. What you've said so far is exactly what a Christian would say.

[Pygoscelis]

1-how much of Islamic shari'a Law do you know?

Very little. All I know about it is that it has something to do with how Muslims govern themselves.

Have you stories from the times of propher Mohammed (PBUH) to validate your claim that it is in fact "non-democratic" or barberic?

No. Nor would I claim that Sharia law is "non-democratic" or barbaric. It may well be, but as noted above I know little about it so can't really say.

2- I will assume that you have relatives that are dear to you... How would you feel if say your mother or your pregnant daughter were raped or beaten and tortured, chopped into body bags and thrown in the water let's say chrismas eve.. as was done in the case of Ms. Lacy peterson by her husband?

I would be outraged of course.

DO you still think it is barberic to impose that death penalty on him, or that it is "un-democratic"?

Democracy has nothing to do with the legitimacy of the death penalty. Democracy is majority rule with minority rights. Its just happens to be that in most democratic nations in the west capital punishment is outlawed, because the populace doesn't favour it. There are exceptions, the USA being one.

Do I think it barbaric? Hard to answer. I wouldn't want capital punishment where I am though, because I wouldn't trust the criminal justice system that far. Innocent people have been found juilty and jailed for murder here before. So under this system innocent people would be put to death. I couldn't accept that.

I'd also have to be sure that a murderer was was incapable of reformation or exhile before I put them to death.

Often people think of how heinous the act is of putting someone to death completely forgetting the victims

Punishing the victimizer isn't undoing the wrong that has been done to the victims. The only valid reason for punishment is deterrence for other would be murderers or rapists, and the effectiveness of that seems quite weak.

A justice system should not be based on punishment. It especially shouldn't be based on eternal punishment (in which reformation is made impossible by the state) or unseen punishment (in which deterrence is minimized or non-existing).

3- To ask forgivness from God is to pay your dues to the victim, and his family

I sincerely hope that this is not the only way or the only reason you pay dues to the victim and his family.

Personally I find debauchery, lewdeness, pornography and other major crimes

I'm not sure what debauchery or lewdeness mean but pornography isn't a crime where I'm at, nor would I want it to be.

[Grace Seeker]

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
If I may, I would prefer to ask a question. Do you attribute some human endeavors to be good and others to be bad? If so, then what is the standard you use to determine that which is good? You answer this, and then maybe we can talk about God.

I'll answer that one even though it wasn't directed at me. I do not believe in inherent good and evil, but only in socially constructive and socially destructive behaviour. I also have some social taboos that have been programmed into me via the society I live in (which are probably not really destructive but are just taboo) such as nudity and taboo words that have no racial or other slur value, such as the F word.

Thank-you for answering. You are most welcome to participate in the discussion. I appreicate your answer. Truly there is wisdom in recognizing that much of what we take for good or bad is the result of social constructs. It sounds like you may have read some of my favorite psychologicst, George Kelley. But that is neither here nor there. In adapting to those social constructs, if you don't believe in inherent good and evil, why do you lable the activies the social construct suggest for us as either good or bad? Surely they could have other labels, but you have chosen those labels. Why?

[جوري]

Democracy has nothing to do with the legitimacy of the death penalty. Democracy is majority rule with minority rights. Its just happens to be that in most democratic nations in the west capital punishment is outlawed, because the populace doesn't favour it. There are exceptions, the USA being one.

Do I think it barbaric? Hard to answer. I wouldn't want capital punishment where I am though, because I wouldn't trust the criminal justice system that far. Innocent people have been found juilty and jailed for murder here before. So under this system innocent people would be put to death. I couldn't accept that.

Well, it isn't for the faint hearted. You don't want to be punished ... don't commit a crime it is really quite simple. Not everyone can perform a Roux en Y procedure or a burr hole incision in someone's skull either ... seems barbaric... a necessary "evil" for the survival of some though

Punishing the victimizer isn't undoing the wrong that has been done to the victims. The only valid reason for punishment is deterrence for other would be murderers or rapists, and the effectiveness of that seems quite weak..

Perhaps not but it will set an example for others to think twice before commiting a crime. Also I'd need stats on effectivness... contrast four thefts in saudi Arabia... to the thousands in the U.S just last year alone. Someone here posted an exact number before..... I'd say that is pretty effective....

A justice system should not be based on punishment. It especially shouldn't be based on eternal punishment (in which reformation is made impossible by the state) or unseen punishment (in which deterrence is minimized or non-existing)...

May I ask then if you hold a job? if you answered yes... may I ask why do you do it? if you answer with ( salary, promotions, good living, a comfortable conscious, a productive member of society a good retirment pension) I'd ask you to contrast that with religion as well.... Every system is based on what you will get out of it, on so many levels. Personal, spiritual, societal. Also contrast all of that to what would happen, if you should slack off on your job, or neglect your duties?

I sincerely hope that this is not the only way or the only reason you pay dues to the victim and his family.

What way is that? asking for forgivness and accepting punishment isn't good or sincere for you, then what is? repentence is something that is between you and God not you and the one you victimized.

I'm not sure what debauchery or lewdeness mean but pornography isn't a crime where I'm at, nor would I want it to be.

walk in the red district part of town and it might impart a hint! I am sorry pornography isn't a crime where you are. I find it very disturbing that a young woman would sell her body for any reason. and it is a crminal act more so on the soceity that has led her to such a miserable path.
peace to you pygo.

[- Qatada -]

That just begs the unanswerable question of first cause. If you say that God created us, then who created God? And if you say God just came to be spontaneously or that God is eternal, then you are just making a more fantastic claim than you are refuting.

God is classed as God because an attribute of God is that He is eternal. If God was created, then He wouldn't be God would he?


If you're confused about why we come up with something like that, our sources are the Qur'an [the speech of Allaah] and the Sunnah - the ways and sayings of His messenger - Muhammad (peace be upon him.)

Within the Qur'an, and Sunnah - the names and attributes of Allaah are mentioned, you can view these from here insha'Allaah:

http://www.islamicity.com/Mosque/99names.htm


So we don't say Allaah is eternal just because we think so, its mentioned in our authentic islamic sources.

I think you're missing the point here. I don't believe in evolution the way that you believe in Allah. I'm not 100% certain that evolution is the right theory, in fact I'm not certain at all, not even 25%. I'm pretty sure that the theory of evolution as currently compromised will be adjusted and maybe even turfed entirely when a better theory comes along. Yet the fact remains that for now it is the best theory we have.

According to you. Not to the majority of mankind.

Why on earth would I want to murder?

But lets look at your question anyway. Any society that functions wouldn't allow murder, that is true, since murder is defined legally as "culpable homocide" or wrongful killing.

If I left my country to live on some uncharted island somewhere I would be free to murder. Of course then the problem would be a lack of people to kill. I bet that if people came and lived with me on that island we'd very quickly establish a pact that we don't murder each other.

So I suppose the only way to Murder without it beling illegal would be to do so in that small period of anarchy before such a pact is formed. And no, I wouldn't want to live in such a place.

People murder to get the most out of this world, before death. Man's hasty, and he prefers this world over the hereafter (this is why patience is an important trait in islaam.) Some people can't wait to be king so they may even murder their own father etc. So in situations like this, man is likely to murder. Whereas if he/she believes in the concept of God, they fear to murder out of His punishment, because life has been classed as sacred in nearly all faiths.

I'm sure they could. In fact, I'm sure they do. Dictatorships and repressive regimes abound throughout history. This may be why many religions are modelled after them. But these are not places I'd care to live, much as I'd not care to live under a God with eternal torture on his mind.

Eternal torture is only for those who reject God. If they reject Him, their choosing to disobey Him willfully, which means they feel they can kill whomever they wish, or to steal, oppress etc. These dictatorships occur mainly when a person isn't following any form of righteous guidance. Whereas if a person is really following the right guidance, he/she are afraid to disobey their Creator because they believe in a punishment, and also the opposite extreme - a reward if they obey.

Perhaps you and I can both agree that this is a false claim by the USA?
If anybody truly believes that the USA is a democracy, much less the head of Democractic nations, I'd wonder if they really knew how the USA functions.

Atleast we agree on something. :)

Part of the process to gain Allah's forgiveness is to apologize to the person you wronged? Is that what you are saying? If so, then the end goal is Allah's forgiveness and not that of the person you wronged, who you are just approaching to get the latter.

Yes, I do have an understanding coming from the Christian viewpoint of how it works. That could mean I have a misunderstanding or ignorance of how it works in Islam. You haven't explained how the Islamic one differs yet. What you've said so far is exactly what a Christian would say.

When a person asks for forgiveness from Allaah, they are doing it for their own soul. The person doesn't have to repent [if they are too arrogant to], and Allaah does not need their repentance because He is self sufficient. If you wrong someone, even if you're intention is for your own good - the person will be pleased that you asked forgiveness from them. No matter what the intention was.


If a person swears at his dad, then later on tells him he's sorry (because his intention is to please his dad so his dad will allow him to inherit his wealth) - then the person is doing it for his/her own self.

Similarly - when a person sins, they realise that they have harmed someone, so they ask forgiveness from that person they wronged, and they don't expect anything from that person in return - they also realise that they've disobeyed Allaah, so they repent to Him in order that they be forgiven due to fact that they transgressed against the laws set by Allaah, and in return - recieve Allaah's Mercy, and reward.


If a persons asked someone for forgiveness, and the person accepted it - it's better than not asking for forgiveness at all. And if someone disobeys their Creator, they should also repent to Him for their own good, because the only reason they've accepted that faith is to submit to the Creator.




Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.

[snakelegs]

I cannot prove to you that God exists.

I have not, and will not bother wasting my time by searching for evidence either.

I am a believer of the Unseen.

I see the Signs of God all around me. Every rain drop, every bird, every Bee, every believer, every non-believer, ever grass, every leaf, every fish in the sea.

You won't see Allah (swt) in this lifetime, you will only be able to see the Signs of the lord of the worlds through his creations.

well said!

[Pygoscelis]

Surely they could have other labels, but you have chosen those labels. Why?

Surely they COULD have other labels, and probably better ones. I only speak of good and bad because that is the language given to me. Those labels were not chosen by me but by the society in which I reside. I would prefer to speak in terms of socially constructive and socially destructive and in terms of social taboos, but not may people will get where I'm coming from and fewer still will want to change their language.

[Pygoscelis]

contrast four thefts in saudi Arabia... to the thousands in the U.S just last year alone. Someone here posted an exact number before..... I'd say that is pretty effective....

Are you saying they kill people for theft in Saudi Arabia? That's pretty shocking if true. Note that deterence for theft and for murder are not the same thing.

[qoute]
repentence is something that is between you and God not you and the one you victimized. [/quote]

I was saying that I hope you do more than just pray to your God etc to make things up to the person who was wronged. You're not making everything alright in my view just by praying to your God, which the victim may not even believes exists. That energy would be better spent apologizing to the victim and doing something to make it up to THEM.

walk in the red district part of town and it might impart a hint! I am sorry pornography isn't a crime where you are. I find it very disturbing that a young woman would sell her body for any reason. and it is a crminal act more so on the soceity that has led her to such a miserable path.
peace to you pygo.

Oh do you mean things like prostitution, strippers, etc? I see nothing wrong with those things if a woman (or man for that matter) chooses to engage in them. Who are we to declare her a victim when she herself doensn't feel victimized and she herself has decided to engage in this? In the case of pimps etc or child porn then I'd agree, but not if the woman sets out for this on her own accord, which is FAR more common than you may think.

[Pygoscelis]

God is classed as God because an attribute of God is that He is eternal. If God was created, then He wouldn't be God would he?

What seems more likely? The universe having always existed or coming to be on its own or an infinitely more complex God being having always existed or coming to be on its own? I submit it is the former even if both are unlikely.

People murder to get the most out of this world, before death. Man's hasty, and he prefers this world over the hereafter (this is why patience is an important trait in islaam.) Some people can't wait to be king so they may even murder their own father etc. So in situations like this, man is likely to murder. Whereas if he/she believes in the concept of God, they fear to murder out of His punishment, because life has been classed as sacred in nearly all faiths.

If the absence of a belief in a God makes people want to kill each other, then why haven't I killed anybody? There is a frequent belief amongst some believers in Gods that athiests can not have morals. Is that your view?

And do you honestly believe that a lack of belief in a God has caused more murders than a belief in one? Religious crusades, witch hunts, killing of heretics, killing of apostates, human sacrifice, all have long long well established histories.

These dictatorships occur mainly when a person isn't following any form of righteous guidance.

I think its more common that they ARE following some form of imagined righteous guidance, since belief in Gods is more common than disbelief. People rationalize such things and may even do these terrible things at the imagined (or real, who is to know) behest of their God.

Eternal torture is only for those who reject God.

Interesting choice of wording there. Does this then exclude atheists, who don't believe God exists? You can't reject somebody you don't believe to exist.

I've often wondered about that. Can an atheist commit blasphemy? If an atheist says something nasty about a God he doesn't believe to exist he isn't speaking about that God him/her/itself but only about the concept of that God within those who believe in him.

If a person swears at his dad, then later on tells him he's sorry (because his intention is to please his dad so his dad will allow him to inherit his wealth) - then the person is doing it for his/her own self.

Given the motivation you assign to him, you are of course correct. But what if he truly is sorry?

[جوري]

Are you saying they kill people for theft in Saudi Arabia? That's pretty shocking if true. Note that deterence for theft and for murder are not the same thing.

No that isn't the punishment for theft. Punishment always fits the crime...

I was saying that I hope you do more than just pray to your God etc to make things up to the person who was wronged. You're not making everything alright in my view just by praying to your God, which the victim may not even believes exists. That energy would be better spent apologizing to the victim and doing something to make it up to THEM.

And we have already explained that part of repentence is paying your dues to the victim....... The victims family in fact many times can decide your fate according to shari'a law. whether they wish to grant you reprieve or impose death penalty... of course I believe that only applies to non meditated murder... Do you know the psychology of the criminal mind? I am really curious?....... even on a small level if you'd put your atheism aside to walk in someone else's show you'd think on some level that a God who created a universe as sophisticated as this would know if someone were truly sincere in their repentence from someone just goofing off to be a hypocrite amongst his people?
I am not sure what does repenting to ones God have to do with societal laws when a criminal still needs to pay his societal obligations which are set forth by the same God whom he is seeking forgivness from. How can repentence be sincere when you carry out one duty and not the other? I am confused one the one hand you detest the barberic methods of execution, on the second you don't think it alright to ask for forgiveness from God... what is it that you are looking for? If I give you a flat tire because I despise you and your new car but later on come to feel remorse... the appropriate thing to do from a religious stance that I pay you for a new tire or replace your old one... what I do between me and "my" God in the way of asking for forgivness is my own business and who should say that my repentence to "my" God would be accepted even?...I don't see how or why it should bother you one way or the other......

Oh do you mean things like prostitution, strippers, etc? I see nothing wrong with those things if a woman (or man for that matter) chooses to engage in them. Who are we to declare her a victim when she herself doensn't feel victimized and she herself has decided to engage in this? In the case of pimps etc or child porn then I'd agree, but not if the woman sets out for this on her own accord, which is FAR more common than you may think.

How do you know what it is I think for starters?? 2ndly I can't think of one good reason a woman would prositute herself over choosing a dignified life... I think it is as immoral for an adult woman as it is for a child for exact same reasons. She is a victim and a victimizer as this is the down fall of society as a whole... If you don't think so, I can respect that, as it is your opinion... but it doesn't make it right.... If people were to follow one of many of their religious obligations set forth by God in the way of giving Alms then there would be no need for a woman to go strip herself to gawking wretched men to put food on the table!
peace!

[Woodrow]

Just a thought.

Although there is difference in opinion about the age of the universe. Everybody seems to be in agreement all matter is the same age, whatever that may be.

The length of time the universe has been in existance is a very short period of time when compared with eternity. Sufficient time will have elapsed so that if matter can occur sponataeniously it should have happened many times. Enough time has elapsed so that if it had happened even many trillions of light years from us we should be able to detect light from it. the sky should be filled with evidence of matter trillions of light years distance from us.

Unless it is impossible for matter to form on it's own and this really is a one time occurance. To be a one time occurance in violation of the laws of physics, something had to cause it. If it is not in violation of physical laws, it should have happened many times.

[Pygoscelis]

If I give you a flat tire because I despise you and your new car but later on come to feel remorse... the appropriate thing to do from a religious stance that I pay you for a new tire or replace your old one

I'd much prefer you bought me a new tire. Your prayer would mean absolutely nothing to me (as a non believer). To me it is just you trying to alleviate yourself of your guilt. You owe me a tire, not a prayer. And all that effort you put into praying could maybe have been instead put into getting me my new tire.

I can't think of one good reason a woman would prositute herself over choosing a dignified life...

Because she doesn't hold the same taboos you do. To some protitution and a dignified life are not mutually exclusive. Just because your culture and/or religion prevent you from seeing the world her way does not mean she sees it your way. Just because you can't think of one good reason why a woman would prostitute herself doesn't mean women don't find such reasons (acceptable to them) and perform sexual services willingly and of their own accord.

I think it is as immoral for an adult woman as it is for a child for exact same reasons. She is a victim and a victimizer as this is the down fall of society as a whole...

I don't understand your point here. How does what she and her customer do effect you or outside society (outside their business room) for the worse?

If people were to follow one of many of their religious obligations set forth by God in the way of giving Alms then there would be no need for a woman to go strip herself to gawking wretched men to put food on the table!

By far the majority of women in the sex industry are not poor. They could get a job outside the industry if they wanted to, but they choose not to. The sex industry pays well and many of the workers in it genuinely enjoy what they do.

[Pygoscelis]

Just a thought.

Although there is difference in opinion about the age of the universe. Everybody seems to be in agreement all matter is the same age, whatever that may be.

Interesting thought. Could the universe have come to be piecemeal? Never really thought of that. Could some parts of the universe be older than others? I can't say that's the case, but I can't say it isn't either.

The length of time the universe has been in existance is a very short period of time when compared with eternity.

If the universe has not always existed, then what you say here is true by the definition of the word eternity :D

Sufficient time will have elapsed so that if matter can occur sponataeniously it should have happened many times.

This is a rather bold claim. How could you know how much time would be required for this to happen, if it could happen?

As I understand it, most of us now conclude the universe had an origin because it is expanding. But that assumes that it has always been expanding, and not gyrating or something.

Anyway, when we get into space and the origin of the universe, I'm quite comfortable in my ignorance. I'm quite happy to say I Don't Know. Even with modern technology some things are still beyond human knowledge.

[جوري]

I'd much prefer you bought me a new tire. Your prayer would mean absolutely nothing to me (as a non believer). To me it is just you trying to alleviate yourself of your guilt. You owe me a tire, not a prayer. And all that effort you put into praying could maybe have been instead put into getting me my new tire..

I cannot dignify your selective reading.. as we have all incessantly told you, you pay your dues to the victim. what I do between me and my God is none of your business... we get it you are atheist you don't care for prayers.. chill....

Because she doesn't hold the same taboos you do. To some protitution and a dignified life are not mutually exclusive. Just because your culture and/or religion prevent you from seeing the world her way does not mean she sees it your way. Just because you can't think of one good reason why a woman would prostitute herself doesn't mean women don't find such reasons (acceptable to them) and perform sexual services willingly and of their own accord...

How do you know? you ran any sort of study as to what goes on in the minds of these women, and what drove them to this life style? Some things are universal regardless of culture or religion.. Again what do you know of my background... Maybe I too was an atheist at some point and became Muslim what do you know of the forces that drive me or what values are dear to me and why... you enjoy generalizing.

I don't understand your point here. How does what she and her customer do effect you or outside society (outside their business room) for the worse?

What can I say... it is the same short sight that leads you to atheism I guess... lots goes on outside the bedroom to society as a whole to mention just one... certain reportable diseases that the CDC should be notified of, go unreported and pandemics can start and spread of disease through these portals... Men who frequent brothels are sometimes married or engage with others outside of marriage..... what do you think? I can see how they would be monogmous though to just one prostitute...:rollseyes

By far the majority of women in the sex industry are not poor. They could get a job outside the industry if they wanted to, but they choose not to. The sex industry pays well and many of the workers in it genuinely enjoy what they do.

Yes I rest my case.. selling yourself pays well
Peace!

[Trumble]

The length of time the universe has been in existance is a very short period of time when compared with eternity. Sufficient time will have elapsed so that if matter can occur sponataeniously it should have happened many times. Enough time has elapsed so that if it had happened even many trillions of light years from us we should be able to detect light from it. the sky should be filled with evidence of matter trillions of light years distance from us.

Unless it is impossible for matter to form on it's own and this really is a one time occurance. To be a one time occurance in violation of the laws of physics, something had to cause it. If it is not in violation of physical laws, it should have happened many times.

You are assuming that both time and space exist independently of the existence of the universe; something that has seemed very unlikely to cosmologists for some considerable time. In other words, there is no 'eternity' outside that existence or space in which that evidence could exist. The concepts simply make no sense. Neither does that of the existence of 'the laws of physics' outside that universe, come to that; they (or to be precise, what they describe) do not, and cannot have, an independent existence outside of that universe.

In other words, space-time itself is as much a property of the universe as is anything else. There is no need to be concerned about apparent creation of the universe from 'nothing' as there was simply no 'nothing' for it to be created 'in'! Or any 'where' and 'when' for a Creator to exist in beforehand. Even language struggles badly here. Language can only portray concepts which we can grasp and relate to in terms of our experience and, like God if you like, the whole thing is pretty much indescribable. Any word you use, like God or Tao (the Taoists actually probably got closest) is merely a vague approximation or interpretation into terms we can comprehend.

Of course, this is all 'just' theories, and as much philosophical speculation as mathematics and physics. The point is, though, that arguments based essentially on everyday experience can pretty much go out the window when talking about something like the creation of the universe. We simply have no everyday experience that is even vaguely relevant.

[Kidman]

that is true however all of the variables that you have preposed are at the very least measurable . tell me then can u in any way present me the dimension of this so called god
good luck on that buddy

Dimension is called faith. I used to be agnostic also, and there is no beating you. You win... you believe what you want to believe.

The thing that caught my attention, was the scientific facts in the Quran... That just recently been discovered by scientists, and professions, who in their discovery were often rewarded highly with medals, nobles, and so forth... And it's funny, cause when they win something for making such a discovery, and the muslims were like "ya, we could've told you that, we believed that all along, but you came up with the means to prove it... Mashallah"

A lot of the times the people would convert to islam because they know the roots of their discovery is far beyond anyone 1400 years ago could've interpreted.

Also, listen to this. How much do we "Know" about this universe??? Is it 0.0001% of everything to know... 0.1%... even 1%??? Say we are smart, and know 5% of everything there is to know in this universe... that leaves 95% to the unknown. If everything we know.. which is a lot of information, only comes out to 5% of everything there is to know, can God exist in the 95% of things that we don't know (or can't prove)???

Kidman

[Trumble]

The thing that caught my attention, was the scientific facts in the Quran... That just recently been discovered by scientists, and professions, who in their discovery were often rewarded highly with medals, nobles, and so forth... And it's funny, cause when they win something for making such a discovery, and the muslims were like "ya, we could've told you that, we believed that all along, but you came up with the means to prove it... Mashallah"

A lot of the times the people would convert to islam because they know the roots of their discovery is far beyond anyone 1400 years ago could've interpreted.

There are no 'scientific facts' in the Qur'an. All there are are a few statements that might be associated with them if you have faith such an association exists.

One example, the "seven regular heavens" thing. Firstly, that didn't even originate with the Qur'an.. virtually every other religion uses seven in that context from Christianity to Buddhism. Secondly, in scientific terms there are no discrete seven layers. Troposphere, Ozonosphere etc. are just labels for convenience to describe what are gradual changes in property. Depending on how precise scientists wanted to be they could have named as many zones and sub-zones as they liked, 3, 9, 27, or whatever. And of course when you think of "heavens" it's quite a step from that to layers of the atmosphere anyway - is that really what was meant in the Qur'an? In the other traditions it is 'real' heavens being talked about, equatable perhaps to worlds, other dimensions, or even degrees of spiritual advancement. A bit more likely than high school science, maybe?

No miracle. As you say, you believe what you want to believe. All the rest of the 'miracles' can be explained in much the same way.

[Malaikah]

Pygoscelis,

lolwatever would like you to respond to this post of his:

warning: this is lolly

salams
in response to nogod2006 i said:

"Perhaps if you knew something about math, you'd understand that it's 100% wrong of you to even suggest that such a probabalistic monstrosity could occur.... simply put... if you take the limit of a probability function that models the existance of this universe - ranging from the bgi bang, to the organistaion fo chaos, to the evolution of all sorts of things to their current states, no mathematicision would argue that the probability literally is not ZERO.

Try disproving that if you wish... based on that, knowing that the probability is literally zero in the limit, surely there's gotta be some sort of intelligent designer behind it all."

I advise you to take a course in math.... you'll learn alot trust me (math is a science btw)

I got a pathetic response from nogod2006 "I'm familiar witht hat argument, hav u hear of parallel universe theories"


The question is:

a. If you're so famililar with that argument, y not reply to it? (And don't tell me "oh but y is so n so mathemtiacian athiest" that doesnt refute the argument).
b. parallel universe is just a theory.
c. parallel universe has nothign2do with the topic... i can use that to my advantage too, but it would go off topic.


now.. nogod2006.... reply to that point.. u seem to hav ignored me totally!

mods pls move this 2 dat thread.. n insure he replies!!!

[- Qatada -]

What seems more likely? The universe having always existed or coming to be on its own or an infinitely more complex God being having always existed or coming to be on its own? I submit it is the former even if both are unlikely.

Believing in a Creator is much easier to believe than believing that everything is created by itself.

If the absence of a belief in a God makes people want to kill each other, then why haven't I killed anybody? There is a frequent belief amongst some believers in Gods that athiests can not have morals. Is that your view?

A person is born in a state of fitrah (a natural inclination to do good) so because Allaah Almighty has made life sacred, we don't incline to murder anyway. However, as a person keeps sinning and doing evil acts, their heart gets covered in darkness. The further a person deviates from the right path - the further they fall into darkness, and the more evil they may dwell in within their lifetime.

And do you honestly believe that a lack of belief in a God has caused more murders than a belief in one? Religious crusades, witch hunts, killing of heretics, killing of apostates, human sacrifice, all have long long well established histories.

It's not religion itself, its people abusing and taking the religion to justify what they do. Even if the religion doesn't encourage certain actions.

I think its more common that they ARE following some form of imagined righteous guidance, since belief in Gods is more common than disbelief. People rationalize such things and may even do these terrible things at the imagined (or real, who is to know) behest of their God.

I said in my earlier post - "These dictatorships occur mainly when a person isn't following any form of righteous guidance."

If they using a religion which isn't for real anyway, and all it is of benefit for is for the people higher in the system - then obviously they may abuse their power. Whereas in islaam, if the leader isn't applying the islamic law, the people don't have to obey him.

Interesting choice of wording there. Does this then exclude atheists, who don't believe God exists? You can't reject somebody you don't believe to exist.

I've often wondered about that. Can an atheist commit blasphemy? If an atheist says something nasty about a God he doesn't believe to exist he isn't speaking about that God him/her/itself but only about the concept of that God within those who believe in him.

Rejecting Allaah Almighty is to reject His commands, attributes, His messengers etc. Therefore anyone who doesn't submit to Allaah, they are the losers and have commited kufr/disbelief.

Given the motivation you assign to him, you are of course correct. But what if he truly is sorry?

What's his motive behind it? Everyone has an intention behind what they do. A person is more likely to be sincere if it will affect him/her personally.




Allaah Almighty know's best.




Peace.

[Pygoscelis]

I cannot dignify your selective reading..

I am not reading selectively. It has been stated here numerous times that any dues you pay to the victim are done not for the sake of the victim themself but for the sake of Allah.

How do you know? you ran any sort of study as to what goes on in the minds of these women, and what drove them to this life style? Some things are universal regardless of culture or religion..

I don't have to know.

I'm not the one here stating that they lack dignity or labelling them as victims. I'm quite happy to leave them alone in what they do and not judge them or their business.

How many sex workers have you spoken with? How many do you know personaly? I know a few and they are all decent people who would be offended by being told that their lives are not dignified.

Again what do you know of my background... Maybe I too was an atheist at some point and became Muslim

All I know about your background is that you stated that you can't imagine a good reason why they would engage in the business that they do. Yet clearly they do find such reasons. They engage in their business willingly. They could get other jobs but choose not to.

Clearly SOMETHING is blinding you to their reasons. If it isn't your culture and religion, then what is it? Or do you claim to know their minds better than they themselves do?

certain reportable diseases that the CDC should be notified of, go unreported and pandemics can start and spread of disease through these portals

Only because of the taboo. Legalize and regulate. License. Tax. Pushing it underground is what creates the greatest amount of danger.

... Men who frequent brothels are sometimes married or engage with others outside of marriage.....

How does this differ from men having affairs outside of the sex industry? Isn't this between themselves and their wives? Why is this my or your business? If they have pledged monogomy and then break it, they are being dishonest and breaking their pledge and the wife has decent grounds to be upset (ie get divorced).

[Pygoscelis]

Pygoscelis,

lolwatever would like you to respond to this post of his:

It is a false statement. Given infinite time that either happened prior to the universe coming to be or that the universe has existed, the probability of the universe isn't 0. It is 1 (ie bound to happen).

Moreover, what is more unlikely? The universe existing or coming to be or a much more complex entity exiting or coming to be and then creating the universe?

[- Qatada -]

Moreover, what is more unlikely? The universe existing or coming to be or a much more complex entity exiting or coming to be and then creating the universe?

Allaah has always been, and it is much easier to believe that the universe was created by someone than no-one at all. (I see this argument so much that the answer has to be repeated to you over and over again.)

[Pygoscelis]

I said in my earlier post - "These dictatorships occur mainly when a person isn't following any form of righteous guidance."

If they using a religion which isn't for real anyway, and all it is of benefit for is for the people higher in the system - then obviously they may abuse their power.

Everybody who claims to do something in the name of religion is claiming to do it in the name of a God. There is no way to know if they are following an Actual God or a delusion or just lieing.

As for False Religions, every religion claims every other religion is false. So its really not easy to follow that point outside of one's own religious view. It will vindicate the doer in their own mind and condemn them in the observer's mind.

What's his motive behind it? Everyone has an intention behind what they do. A person is more likely to be sincere if it will affect him/her personally.

Well adding God to the equation only adds one more motive that isn't selfish. Maybe he's apologizing to his father to look good in the eyes of his God. Maybe he's apologizing to avoid hellfire or to gain heaven.

Then again, maybe he's just genuinely sorry? This could be the case with or without a religious belief.

[جوري]

I am not reading selectively. It has been stated here numerous times that any dues you pay to the victim are done not for the sake of the victim themself but for the sake of Allah.)

really? that is news to me..... perhaps it has more to do with your understanding of what was written rather than what was written...

I don't have to know.

I'm not the one here stating that they lack dignity or labelling them as victims. I'm quite happy to leave them alone in what they do and not judge them or their business.)

There is a lack of dignity in what they do... and for the the same reasons, that keep you from parading in the streets in your birthday suit.... unless you do in which case please accept my humble apologies...

How many sex workers have you spoken with? How many do you know personaly? I know a few and they are all decent people who would be offended by being told that their lives are not dignified.

I have treated quite a few during my OB/GYNE rotation.... it was a tragic situation... maybe they weren't on the high end of the scale as the ones "YOU KNOW PERSONALLY"

All I know about your background is that you stated that you can't imagine a good reason why they would engage in the business that they do. Yet clearly they do find such reasons. They engage in their business willingly. They could get other jobs but choose not to.

most if not all the reasons are not good ones! I can't see "hooking" or "stripping" as a good asset on a resume.......

Clearly SOMETHING is blinding you to their reasons. If it isn't your culture and religion, then what is it? Or do you claim to know their minds better than they themselves do?

Neither my culture nor religion, just seeing them in a hospital setting was enough for me to draw appropriate conclusions........

Only because of the taboo. Legalize and regulate. License. Tax. Pushing it underground is what creates the greatest amount of danger.

regulating it wouldn't change the life expectancy of these folk more than five years at best and that is an actual fact from a medical study!

How does this differ from men having affairs outside of the sex industry? Isn't this between themselves and their wives? Why is this my or your business? If they have pledged monogomy and then break it, they are being dishonest and breaking their pledge and the wife has decent grounds to be upset (ie get divorced).

It doesn't--- Religion dignifies men and women...... those who follow truthfully wouldn't subject themselelves or their spouses to such indignation..

[Pygoscelis]

Allaah has always been, and it is much easier to believe that the universe was created by someone than no-one at all. (I see this argument so much that the answer has to be repeated to you over and over again.)

Fi, it isn't an answer to the question, that my be why.

It may be easier for you to beleive that the universe was created by someone than no one at all, but then who was that someone created by? ANd if they have always been, why is it easier for you to believe that than to beleive that they were created by someone rather than by no one at all?

Don't you see that you are just complicating matters and leaving the dilema unanswered?

[جوري]

If God were created then he wouldn't be God.... One would worship the creator not the created....
To understand what God is would require that we not be humans, for simply God is beyond our comprehnsion... So much is beyond our comprehension with all our modern technology, such as the actual mechanism of accomadation convergence reaction, or the precise mechanism of action of an Alpha 2 adrenoceptor blockers, or the purpose of IgD on a B cell.....and and and--- if you can accept that there is that which can't be explained-- even by modern science, then it shouldn't be that difficult to believe in the God that created such complexity.... if you think you have an answer for everything... aside from the fact that I'd love to read about it.... then by all means be the mother of all logical atheists and come teach us all about it.
peace

[- Qatada -]

Pygoscelis, the reason i keep saying it over and over is due to the fact that you realise the beauty of the universe, the galaxies, the stars, the planets and everything within them - which makes it seem as if no-one could create them except a Perfect Being. He created all this for a reason, because whenever anyone does anything - they do it for a reason.


Just try building some toy planets, toy stars, and the beings that live within them - place them together so they rotate at different paces, revolving around others (i.e. the sun) and keep that system going for a while. How long will it run for? Will those toy planets keep revolving around the toy sun at a similar pace throughout? Or will the batteries die out :p



Reflecting on the creation is a form of worship, travelling in the lands is a form of worship so why not do that? living in this building block society makes us confused, we don't see the true nature of the animals, plants, stars etc. because we're too caught up in other things (i.e. collecting money etc. which gives us too less time to reflect on the creation.)



I don't want you to reply back to this as a debate, but i want you to take note of these points in your head. There may be moments in your life when you will feel that you're going to die, or where you feel you got no-one to help except someone higher in authority. If you don't believe in this higher authority, then just give it a shot - ask for help from the Creator, keep an open heart and see if the help comes down.


Realise that this Creator is the Most Merciful, and He doesn't desire that His servant's go to hell. This life is only temporary, and death is real. You can enjoy life while submitting to the Creator, because He will keep blessing you with more, even in this world.

Realise that you're a miracle too, and you will be rewarded for everything good you do. Use the abilities you've been blessed with for good, and you'll see it's fruits insha'Allaah.




Peace.

[Pygoscelis]

There is a lack of dignity in what they do... and for the the same reasons, that keep you from parading in the streets in your birthday suit.... unless you do in which case please accept my humble apologies...

You speak to social taboos. Have you ever been to a nudist colony? Do you consider nudists to be obscene? They don't. It isn't what some here may imagine. It is actually a very freeing and wholesome experience. This is all a matter of your cultural views and taboos. Nothing more.

most if not all the reasons are not good ones! I can't see "hooking" or "stripping" as a good asset on a resume.......

Again, this is only due to social taboos. And for the smart ones it doesnt matter anyway. They can squirrel away a lot of money during their years in the sex industry, invest it, etc. I know a couple who are retired at age 40 and will not need to work again.

As for those tragic cases you have seen in hospitals, I think you are misattributing causation. These people would exist with or without the sex industry, though the elimination of the taboo surrounding it and making it seedy may help.

There is a dark underbelly of the sex industry, sure. Where abusive pimps cause harm to women, they should be prosecuted. Legalizatoin and Regulation would go a long way towards flushing them out.

There are women who engage in drug use and self mutilation, they should be helped. If such women also engage in the sex industry it may be because that is a big source of money available to them.

Correlation does not mean causation. Moreover, I'm not confident in the correlation appear to be speaking of.

As to the study you speak of (which I'll take your word for it that it exists), with the social taboo being what it is, how many women engaged in the sex industry (who are not the troubled type you refer to above) would answer such a survey? How many would admit to working in the sex industry (especially in the case of prostitution which is illegal in some places)? If not by survey, how was the study done?

It doesn't

Well then it says nothing of the sex industry.

Anyway, we're getting way off topic. This thread wasn't about sex workers. Lets get back on topic before the moderator decides to close the thread and we have to open another on topic.

Actually that may not be a bad idea, given that the fellow who started this thread appears to have vanished a while back.

[- Qatada -]

Guys, trust me - stick to the topic. What you discussing isn't part of that.. so i think it's better you stick to the topic of God insha'Allaah. :)


Peace.

[Pygoscelis]

if you think you have an answer for everything

I am not the one here claiming answers. I am claiming ignorance. It is the religions of the world that pretend to know the answers.

If, as you state, God is so complicated that it is beyond human comprehension to understand God, then doens't the same argument of a complicated thing coming to be or always existing being unlikely come into play?

If the universe is so amazing that it required a creator, is God not even more amazing and thus so amazing that it/he/she required a creator?

If God existed for all time or came to be without a creator, why can't something more simple like the universe come to be without a creator?

[جوري]

I am yet to see anything in creation no matter how small, show absence of detail. I can't imagine how that could come about by itself?
I don't see how your body can know when to start glycolysis, or krebs Cycle, or gluconeogensis, or urea cycle, I don't know how it can know that the urea cycle shouldn't have an inhibiting factor and should go on all the time as to not have nitrogenous waste products build in your system. I don't see how your kidneys know not to add one extra hydrogen during filtration/excretion so that you are not peeing out pure sulphuric acid. I don't know how the sun can know to rise from the east and set from the west. I don't know how a humming bird has a flower to fit its size beak. I don't know how an amoeba senses fear (it happens when you try to add ink to it to visualize it better under a microscope)-- I don't how cells in the pretectal area supply both Edinger-Westphal nuclei so that shinning a light in one eye can cause constriction in both, I don't see how all this can happen everyday seemingly on its own volition. without someone governing it-- It is too great.

I can't classify any of it short of a miracle. When you think of how anarchy can go on to any place neglected, just naturally in any place that isn't governed and contrast it to that which goes right everyday-- literally and figuratively miracles that we take for granted. If nature came to be on its own, why the need for such intricacies and perfection? why not just be for function? A matter of what is needed for survival not visual attraction?

None of us here who believe in God claim we know the answers to anything other than that the one who created is great, and for things to be of this caliber he must be truly sophisticated, truly just, truly beautiful. A masterful engineer, a masterful artist, a masterful healer, a masterful physicist, there isn't an area in this universe that lacks pure perfection...How can we turn our face from it? How can we not contemplate and reflect upon it?

Those of us who worship simply don't take any of it for granted. We are grateful for it. Thank you God for all you have given and continue to give and for the gift of Guidance and religion (Islam).
Ameen

[Trumble]

If God existed for all time or came to be without a creator, why can't something more simple like the universe come to be without a creator?

Undeniably a very strong argument, to which no theist ever seems able to come up with an even vaguely satisfactory answer.

It's easy to understand the perception that things such as complex biochemical systems could not have come about by chance, but the introduction of God as a 'watchmaker' only enhances the problem, not solves it. As you say, why does the universe require a creator while God does not? Ultimately something must have come into being without a creative intelligence behind it, so surely common sense, or at at least Occam's law, dictates that thing should be a simple as possible, not as complex as possible?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Because God is not creation. Creation is finite not infinite.
God not being Himself created is what makes Him unique.

[GARY]

The question that cannot be answered. God cannot be proven.
You either believe or you don't.

[جوري]

Undeniably a very strong argument, to which no theist ever seems able to come up with an even vaguely satisfactory answer.

It's easy to understand the perception that things such as complex biochemical systems could not have come about by chance, but the introduction of God as a 'watchmaker' only enhances the problem, not solves it. As you say, why does the universe require a creator while God does not? Ultimately something must have come into being without a creative intelligence behind it, so surely common sense, or at at least Occam's law, dictates that thing should be a simple as possible, not as complex as possible?

whatever "satisfactory" answers you come up with to foster your life style is ok with us... According to your own conclusion though God is a much simpler answer than things came to be on their own with all that, that would entail -- which is neither satisfactory scientifically nor spiritually.

[Trumble]

According to your own conclusion though God is a much simpler answer than things came to be on their own with all that, that would entail -- which is neither satisfactory scientifically nor spiritually.

In that context God is a 'simplistic' answer rather than a 'simple' one. With the properties ascribed to Him, there can be nothing more complex than God, including everything He is supposed to have created.

whatever "satisfactory" answers you come up with to foster your life style is ok with us...

I'm sure it is, but surely it's up to you to provide that answer to this particular question and not me? As I said unless an answer to "who or what created God" can be provided the "watchmaker" argument regarding the rest of creation is impotent. It has one fundamental premise based purely on faith, which Tayyaba set out quite nicely, a premise that completely begs the question. You are arguing that God exists using the assumption that He does.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

You are arguing that God doesn't exists using the assumption that He doesn't.
Because the fact that something so complex wouldnt be self created doesnt seem to fit u.

[Trumble]

You are arguing that God doesn't exists using the assumption that He doesn't.

No, I am not making any such assumption. All I am saying is that when two explanations both fit the facts the simpler (not 'simplistic'!) explanation is usually preferred.

We seem to have a choice, either that the universe and everything in it has either always existed or was created without a guiding intelligence, or that God was. As God must be more complex than what He is supposed to have created, i.e everything else, then the simpler explanation is that it was everything else has either always existed, or came into being without a guiding intelligence, and not God. That way there is no need to bring the most complex concept, God, into the equation at all. There is only one reason to accept the more complex answer, faith.

[جوري]

In that context God is a 'simplistic' answer rather than a 'simple' one. With the properties ascribed to Him, there can be nothing more complex than God, including everything He is supposed to have created..

This is what we call semantics.......... but I will agree with the latter half of that argument!

I'm sure it is, but surely it's up to you to provide that answer to this particular question and not me? As I said unless an answer to "who or what created God" can be provided the "watchmaker" argument regarding the rest of creation is impotent. It has one fundamental premise based purely on faith, which Tayyaba set out quite nicely, a premise that completely begs the question. You are arguing that God exists using the assumption that He does.

I am not here to provide you or any other member with any answers. I promise you nothing would give me greater pleasure than to turn off my computer and address the pile of work I have awaiting me, seems however every time I check my email there is something of LI awaiting--- nor was it I who ascribed the Quality of "watchmaker" to God it is jejune and disrespectful.... and was used by only your person........... a
watch·mak·er
Pronunciation: -"mA-k&r
Function: noun
: one that makes or repairs watches or clocks
even in a mataphorical sense it is not befitting.....
I am not using assumptions. I am using what to me and other theists is very logical. at least the same quality of logic that you ascribe to the universe having come on its own....
Peace!

[Trumble]

I meant 'you' in the context of theists in general, not you personally! :happy:

[Malaikah]

It is a false statement. Given infinite time that either happened prior to the universe coming to be or that the universe has existed, the probability of the universe isn't 0. It is 1 (ie bound to happen).

Moreover, what is more unlikely? The universe existing or coming to be or a much more complex entity exiting or coming to be and then creating the universe?

His reply:

actually that is wrong.

He's assuming the universe existed for infinite time which isn't true. (So the probability of it coming to existance out of nothing is zero, because of fact it's not infinite!, And a probability density function wouldn't only take that event into consideration, if you take into consideration every other crazy event (like for xample amino acdids surviving cosmic rays pounding it day in day out for thousands (probably millions?) of years, plus every other thing like natural selection etc.. the function decays to zero way faster than inverse quadratic or watever u can think of).

Secondly, He said

"Moreover, what is more unlikely? The universe existing or coming to be or a much more complex entity exiting or coming to be and then creating the universe?"

Actually, the question to ask is "Which is more unlikely, a complex entity like the universe comign to be without a control system, or it coming out of no where".

We all know that for even for the simplest mechanism there has to be a control system (Otherwise if there where alternative ways to come up with things, why would scientistis/engieners make it such a fundamental thing?). For everything there's cause and effect, what makes the creation of the unievser an exception? The fact that the universe didn't exist for an infinite period of time just makes that even more factual.

Just a little on the side analogy that's relevent to the topic... suppose you create an artificial world on computer (e.g. using massive (tm) artificial intelligence software), the dimensions your little creations exist are completely different to the realm you're in, they live within a different time domain, even what the agents "percieve" to be 3D is different to the 3 dimensions you physically live in... You know for fact that you're the initiator of the universe, these AI agents can't perceive, see, hear talk to you (coz das just how you've created the system), does that mean you don't exist? just because they can't see you?

Our example is similar to that with respect to Allah, the only difference is that we have been given a better degree of intelligence to figure for ourselves that there needs to be a power behind all this. Systems tend towards disorder, not order. That's entropy. Unless there's some control system behidn it all.

[Pygoscelis]

Who are you quoting?

THe quote about probability appears to be taken out of context and I can't really tell what the writer is trying to say. Out of its context it isn't coherent.

The AI example is interesting but pointless. It assumes you are the creator and then asks if you are the creator. Just because an etity could create another without the other's knowledge doesn't mean that all etities were created by another. He's only seems to be saying that it is possible that our world was created by some outside force, which I don't think anybody here is disputing. Makes no reference to Gods, maybe he's talking about aliens?

You could just as easily say "Imagine that by some freak occurence you turn into an unseeable unhearable ghost. You walk amongst your friends and they can't see you. They can't hear you. They can't talk to you. Does that mean you don't exist?"

Maybe we were planted here by space men. Maybe a God made us. Maybe we've always been. The fact of the matter is we simply do not know and there is no way to be sure.

That being said, the more specific your claim about the origin of the universe the more likely you are to be wrong. The more attributes you assign to your God the more likely the God you envision doesn't exist.

[Grace Seeker]

Surely they COULD have other labels, and probably better ones. I only speak of good and bad because that is the language given to me. Those labels were not chosen by me but by the society in which I reside. I would prefer to speak in terms of socially constructive and socially destructive and in terms of social taboos, but not may people will get where I'm coming from and fewer still will want to change their language.

So, does this mean that in your mind that there are not moral good and bads, no right, no wrong?


How do you feel about the war in Iraq? If there is no right, nor wrong, then what difference does it make one way or the other unless of course it is your life that is in peril?

[Malaikah]

Who are you quoting?

A member of this forum, lolwatever (yes, thats his username lol). He had his account disabled until he finishes exams because he is hooked to the forum, however he just cant stay away and is asking me to post in this thread for him.

[------]

So, does this mean that in your mind that there are not moral good and bads, no right, no wrong?

Elaborate please.

[shanu]

Dear No God,
If God is the creatort. He has to know the creation just like the back of his hand right? So well first pls take ur time to read the website below which shows bopth Quran references and scietifice refrences side by side.

N yes we believe in the Big bang theory too, in fact it was writeen in the Quran

Let me write u the website brother
www.islam-guide.com
Enjoy reading. N decide ur self if God exists or nt.

Assalamu alaikum (Peace be upon u)

[Salmaan]

How do you disbelieve in Allah!!!




How do you disbelieve in Allah, seeing that you were dead and He gave you life! Then He will cause you to die, then He will give you life, then unto Him you will return. [Al Qur'an (2:28)]

How do you disbelieve in Allah! How do you commit this act of kufr? How do you cover up this reality (the reality of Allah), seeing that you were dead - you were lifeless, not existing, not known or mentioned - and He gave you life?

How do you disbelieve in Allah! How with unlimited number of question marks and exclamation marks. This statement demonstrates how strange and unnatural this act of kufr (disbelief) is, being aware that one did not exist before and thus ignoring the Cause of existence. How would you disbelieve in the One Who gave you life and will cause you to die? And not only that but will give you life again and then calls you for accountability.

How do you disbelieve in Allah! How do you inflate yourselves with false pride, which is the main key of kufr [1], knowing that you were dead and will certainly go back to that state? Being aware of your beginning and of your end, and seeing that you have no control over both, you are indeed expected to be humble without having one iota of pride. How do you disbelieve in Allah! How come you are unthankful to the One Who endowed you with the bounty of life and what it contains! Who endowed you with the faculties of hearing, seeing and understanding. In fact, humans are completely enveloped by God's favors. Thankfulness is the befitting and expected act from you not kufr (ungratefulness).

When we see an individual treating his or her mother badly, we become astonished and hate that kind of behavior. Surely our astonishment and hatefulness of such behavior increase when we realize the continuous effort of the mother and the care she provides her child with. The action of such individual is clearly a severe act of ungratefulness. And if this is the case, then what about the One Who created us and our mothers, the One Who provides for us and for our mothers? It becomes then clear that the act of ignoring the favors of Allah (glory be to Him) exceeds all limits of injustice and ungratefulness. Ignoring the favors of the Creator is surely a crime beyond description.

In fact, if Allah is not thanked whom else will be thanked? If Allah is not obeyed whom else will be obeyed? And it Allah is not worshiped whom else will be worshiped?

How do you disbelieve in Allah! How do you disbelieve in the One Who is that great (all greatness) and, Who is that able (all ability)! How do you disbelieve in the One Who brought you to existence and Who is to recreate you after death! How do you disbelieve in the One Who owns you fully and nothing happens in the universe except as a result of His will? He is indeed the One to be conscious of and the One to be respected. How do you disbelieve in the One Whom you will return to for accountability and there is no escape from meeting Him?

Allah is indeed our Owner. We are His property. A property that is completely dependent and is disparately in need of its Owner. And an Owner Who is in no need to His property and His property does not in any way increase His unlimited richness.

How do you disbelieve in Allah! How do you deny the resurrection and accountability, knowing that you were dead and Allah gave you life? It is extremely ignorant to doubt the ability of Allah (glory be to Him) - the One Who originated you to give you life again. And it is also foolish to ignore the seriousness and purposefulness that is ingrained in creation that strongly point out towards eventual accountability.

How do you disbelieve in Allah! How do you commit shirk (worshiping others with Allah or giving the attributes of Allah to others), which is one of the severest forms of kufr, whereas Allah is the only One Who gave you life, the only One that will cause you to die then live again, and the only One that will bring you for full accountability.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) defined shirk saying- "That you make somebody or something similar to Allah, while He created you." In the Qur'an Allah (glory be to Him) says: "Yet they ascribe as partners unto Him the jinn . Although He did create them, they falsely, having no knowledge, attributed to Him sons and daughters. Glorified be He and exalted above (all) that, they ascribe (unto Him)," 6:100. We notice here, in the Qur'anic verse and the Prophet's saying, the exclamation about the act of giving the attributes of Allah or describing Him in human terms (attributing to Allah human qualities), while Allah is the Only Creator.

How do you disbelieve in Allah! How do you deny the existence of the Creator, while you are created and surely you have not created yourselves? Also nothingness can not be the Cause of your existence. How do you deny the Cause of your existence? It is like a machine denying the existence of its maker and not obeying his or her commands.

It the universe and what it contains is not enough for any sane individual, proving the existence of the Creator, then there are only two possibilities. First, the individual's mind is not functioning right, which means that the individual's faculty of understanding is shielded by various desires and self interest. The second possibility is that there is a problem of conception. If the individual views God, for example, as a trinity or as a white bearded being located at one of the far planets or stars, then how would one prove the existence of such being!

In reality Atheism (denying the existence of God) grows and flourishes in environments or situations where wrong beliefs are being inherited or adopted. In a society where mysticism, for example, is prevalent and being practiced one would certainly find people reacting properly or improperly to such nonsense, going to various directions like Atheism, Agnosticism or rarely the correct belief and understanding.

At times one hears some Muslims talking about the difficulty to prove the existence of God which is indeed unexpected and saddening. This kind of claim should only come from people following and promoting other belief systems that are not based on understanding and evidence. This is because if such people prove the existence of God logically, they would be unable to continue this process for unproven illogical other aspects, like for example, the trinity or the attributes claimed to be acquired by the so called saints.

Proving the existence of God is so simple to demonstrate and understand. One does not need to have a special experience, study or training. What is needed is simply the life experience of being here surrounded with the universe and its components (including humans and their life supporting systems).

Some people also claim that the belief in God is something internal; that is based on one's internal feelings. Surely the human nature, the built-in nature (the Fitrah), is a factor in the individual confirmation of the existence of God, but it is certainly not the only evidence. Furthermore, the human's built-in nature can be covered up with all kinds of whims and desires and thus becomes unable to function property. Therefore, depending on the inner feelings as the sole factor of proving the existence of God is clearly erroneous.

What can be said here is that the Fitrah, the uncorrupted built-in nature of the human, resonates happily with the Truth. It resonates greatly with the overwhelming evidence proving the existence of the Creator and describing His unimaginable great attributes.

[1] Al Qur'an, 40:35, 40:56.

[Kidman]

There are no 'scientific facts' in the Qur'an. All there are are a few statements that might be associated with them if you have faith such an association exists.

One example, the "seven regular heavens" thing. Firstly, that didn't even originate with the Qur'an.. virtually every other religion uses seven in that context from Christianity to Buddhism. Secondly, in scientific terms there are no discrete seven layers. Troposphere, Ozonosphere etc. are just labels for convenience to describe what are gradual changes in property. Depending on how precise scientists wanted to be they could have named as many zones and sub-zones as they liked, 3, 9, 27, or whatever. And of course when you think of "heavens" it's quite a step from that to layers of the atmosphere anyway - is that really what was meant in the Qur'an? In the other traditions it is 'real' heavens being talked about, equatable perhaps to worlds, other dimensions, or even degrees of spiritual advancement. A bit more likely than high school science, maybe?

No miracle. As you say, you believe what you want to believe. All the rest of the 'miracles' can be explained in much the same way.

Umm... as far as scientific facts go... the seven heaven's thing is actually one of the weaker ones. Maybe you should do some research on this also, about what the quran says about the pregnancy of a woman, or the separation between different bodies of waters.

Also, on top of that, the Quran basically says that if you think the Quran is flawed, then come up with one Surah (verse) like it (matching the elequence of speech and depth of meaning), and even if all of mankind tries to come up with anything similar, it will not succeed. So, how can somebody, who cannot read or write, come up with such a book of elequence poetry and arabic, that till this day nobody can even match a verse like it?

Now, i know you will say "trying to match a verse of the Quran is possible, it's just that the muslims will not believe it is as high of standards since they believe the Quran is the word of God and will hold that higher than any other verse anybody else brings." But that is not true either... if somebody brought about such a book that goes into depth, and is uses the expression and words the quran uses (the arabic language is very deep, and it is very hard to explain), but then that will all over the news, since it would be proof that the quran is a fake, but till this day this has not have happened.

Kidman

[Pygoscelis]

So, does this mean that in your mind that there are not moral good and bads, no right, no wrong?

In a sense I believe in right and wrong, but not in the religious meanings of the words. Right and Wrong, Good and Evil, are not things that exist on their own in isolation, they need context. "Right" to me means socially constructive or positive and life enriching. "Wrong" means socially destructive and life destroying. This is hard for me to explain.

How do you feel about the war in Iraq?

I think its a travesty and a completely unecesary one at that. Nobody gains from this and it hurts so many. It is truly sad.

If there is no right, nor wrong, then what difference does it make one way or the other unless of course it is your life that is in peril?

I feel empathy for those who are hurt and outrage at those who have caused the situation. You don't need a sense of Good and Evil to feel these things.

[Malaikah]

From lolwatever:

THe quote about probability appears to be taken out of context and I can't really tell what the writer is trying to say. Out of its context it isn't coherent.

Ok... i'll simplify...

Probability of universe coming into existance out of non existance (It's not somethign that existed for ifninity) by coincidence is very very very low, multiply that by the probability of the big bang causing the existance of advanced natural systems ( e.g. just take life on earth for an example).... it's like the probability of spilling of 10 randomly colored paint buckets and beleiving that by coincidence you'll get a painting of monolisa formed lol.

That's just to simplify things... if you just take a look at evolution alone and take a look at the probability of proteins being formed under the conditions they had to with stand for thousands of years... it's so low its zero.

What i'm sayign here is.. Nogod's statement

world came to be by mere chance and probability

is just insane.

There must have been a control system. Really it's irrelevent whether you think it's an "alien" or whatever that came up with it. The point is, It didn't come out of no where without any engineering or plan behind it.

If you take the above situation and then consider that there was a superior being (really whether you call it God or alien or whatever for now isn't important, we beleive it's Allah) who isn't restricted by the limiations we have... it makes full sense that anything could have occurred, and based on probability.. ofcourse, a creator who is with the descriptiosn we ascribe to him can do anything and everything... including making order out of chaos.

The AI example is interesting but pointless. It assumes you are the creator and then asks if you are the creator.

No, it's nto assumign.. i'm saying.. it's an experiemtn you can do for yourself.

You create a world, you know that you're the creator, as far as the AI agents are concerned, you're beyond their imagination, you're not restricted by their time/spatial domains. Just because they cant prove you exist doesn't mean you don't.

But suppose you could give those agents same intellect we have.. (so elt's assume for a moment we're stuck in that mini universe), based on what we see around us, we learn that there's cause and effect.. there's a cause behind everything, wouldn't it make sense to realise there must have been a creator of this entire system? A creator that's not limited by the dimension's by which wer'e bound ( e.g. space/time)?

Regardless of what you think created it, the question is.. do you agree there must be an entity that's outside of our bousdn that created/caused all this?!

After that... we can sit n discuss whether Allah is this creator that we agree created all this. And the proof for that would also be somethign to do with probability (i mean suppose i wanna prove to my little AI agents that i'm the creator, - suppose for a moment they have intellect like us - ) and so i send them prophets with mriacles which defy the natural process fo things that i setup (afterall i can do watever i want i can destroy/make do watever i please).... and these prophets i send there tell those other AI agents "look.. the creator otu there is showing you guys these miraclse which non of you can reproduce, and he's sent a message to you people, so what makes you gusy reject it"... But this paragraph coems after we agree on the question at the end of the above paragraph.

Just because an etity could create another without the other's knowledge doesn't mean that all etities were created by another. He's only seems to be saying that it is possible that our world was created by some outside force, which I don't think anybody here is disputing. Makes no reference to Gods, maybe he's talking about aliens?

I made it clear, we can only discuss god once you agree that there is a creator, and then we can argue why God is a creator.. he's sent us signs and challenges that no one has defied successfully. So why would we reject somethign that makes sense to us.

You could just as easily say "Imagine that by some freak occurence you turn into an unseeable unhearable ghost. You walk amongst your friends and they can't see you. They can't hear you. They can't talk to you. Does that mean you don't exist?"

huh? i dont get wat u mean by that...

Maybe we were planted here by space men. Maybe a God made us. Maybe we've always been. The fact of the matter is we simply do not know and there is no way to be sure.

The first two are atleast logical, the third one is just false, this universe hasn't been around for an infinite period of time, and we know that life definately hasn't "always been". Discussion about God can only come once you agree taht somethign created us... to suggest that nothign created us makes the discussion about god pointless.

I hope you understand that we havnt always been... universe and life has been around for a finite period of time.. so does that mean you now agree one of the first two options are logical to choose from?

That being said, the more specific your claim about the origin of the universe the more likely you are to be wrong. The more attributes you assign to your God the more likely the God you envision doesn't exist.

Well i hope i made it specific enough to show the above paragraph wrong :D.

p.s. Regarding my first paragraph.. when i said probability of everythign created otu of nohting is zero... that's because according to what we know, you can't create matter out of nothing.. it defies all conservation laws ever known to man.... so there must be a creator (whatever/whoever you think it is) that is not bounded by these laws, since he himself created them (time, space, conservation of matter etc..)

[Pygoscelis]

From lolwatever:

it's like the probability of spilling of 10 randomly colored paint buckets and beleiving that by coincidence you'll get a painting of monolisa formed lol.

Is it? Or is it more like spilling an infinite number of paint buckets? Asuming for this discussion that the universe hasn't always been, an infinite amount of time may have preceeded the formation of this universe.

If that is so and a universe formed once then due to the nature of infinity it or other universes have formed an infinite number of times. If that is so, then it is not unlikely but certain that some such universes would spawn life as we know it.

No, it's nto assumign.. i'm saying.. it's an experiemtn you can do for yourself.

ANd so is mine. Imagine yourself turned invisible. You can't talk or be seen by your friends though you walk amongst them. Does that mean you don't exist?

No it doesn't. But it also doesn't prove that there are invisible people following us around everywhere.

All your thought experiment does is show that it is POSSIBLE for a creator to exist. Many things are possible. In fact, pretty much anything is possible.

Regardless of what you think created it, the question is.. do you agree there must be an entity that's outside of our bousdn that created/caused all this?!

Um no. You are now trying to go from "its possible" (which of course is true) to "it must be" (which certainly doesn't follow). And why are you shouting at me? :giggling:

universe and life has been around for a finite period of time

That seems to be the case. But we don't know this for certain. We guess this to be the case from such observations as that the universe is currently in a state of expansion.

.. so does that mean you now agree one of the first two options are logical to choose from?

Well first, there are more than 2 options. Those are just two that came off the top of my head. Aliens could have planted us here. We could have migrated here from another planet. Your God could have put us here. Somebody else's God could have put us here. We may have always been. We may have come to be via evolution. We may have created ourselves in some sort of weird time loop. I'm sure there are dozens if not hundreds of other possibilities creative minds could think up.

Secondly, it isn't for us to "choose". It is what it is. And we have no way of knowing what it is.

When theists attempt to refute that the world could exist without their God they so often fall into circular pattern, as we have seen in this thread.

If you argue that the universe is so complex and unlikely that it couldn't have always been or come to be on its own, then it is inconsistent to say that God (infinitely more complex) could always have been or come to be on its/his/her/their own. And every effort the theist puts into disproving the universe's natural origin just circles right back at the theist's God.

If you start with the premise that everything requires a cause but then claim something that doesn't (God), you have violated your premise and your argument is baseless.

[Malaikah]

From lolwatever:

Is it? Or is it more like spilling an infinite number of paint buckets? Asuming for this discussion that the universe hasn't always been, an infinite amount of time may have preceeded the formation of this universe.

If that is so and a universe formed once then due to the nature of infinity it or other universes have formed an infinite number of times. If that is so, then it is not unlikely but certain that some such universes would spawn life as we know it.
The universe definately hasn't been around for an infinite period of time. It violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics...

And what'st he infinite bucket theory to do with responding to that analogy

ANd so is mine. Imagine yourself turned invisible. You can't talk or be seen by your friends though you walk amongst them. Does that mean you don't exist?

lol erm no it doesn't mean i dont exist.. but whats the point of that question? Turning invisible isn't something that's logically plausible.. Cause and Effect, and there having been a creator/initiator is. That doesnt prove or disprove my analogy about cause and effect and creation.

No it doesn't. But it also doesn't prove that there are invisible people following us around everywhere.

But hangon, i'm talking about an established thign here.. cause and effect, there must have been a unique control system to create this universe, soemthign that defied laws of conservation and not restricted by space/time.

As i said whether you think its an alien or what not isn't important.. the issue is, there is a creator, initiator to all of this. logic suggests its something that's not bound by the limits we're operating in.

All your thought experiment does is show that it is POSSIBLE for a creator to exist. Many things are possible. In fact, pretty much anything is possible.

You're assuming universe existed infinitely which isn't true... once you realise that, it becoems more plausible to believe that there's a creator for all of this.

Um no. You are now trying to go from "its possible" (which of course is true) to "it must be" (which certainly doesn't follow). And why are you shouting at me?

i wasn't shouting.. funny u skipped all whats in between... atleast giv a comment on each thing i say to know that you've read it.

That seems to be the case. But we don't know this for certain. We guess this to be the case from such observations as that the universe is currently in a state of expansion.

And it's more than just a guess.. you don't really believe in limits it seems? I mean, it's pretty obvious that if you could trace back the expansion of the universe, it's pretty obvious that it resulted from somethign infinitesemally small.

Which also brigns about somethign to do with god, 1400 years back, who on earth would know about expansion, or initial 'big bangs', or any of this stuff that we're now discussing? If it wasn't something "supernatural" (we'll leave it at that term for now) that ifnormed the illiterate prophet of that... then who could it have been? Some bedoin astrophycisit? lol

Well first, there are more than 2 options. Those are just two that came off the top of my head. Aliens could have planted us here. We could have migrated here from another planet. Your God could have put us here. Somebody else's God could have put us here. We may have always been. We may have come to be via evolution. We may have created ourselves in some sort of weird time loop. I'm sure there are dozens if not hundreds of other possibilities creative minds could think up.

Secondly, it isn't for us to "choose". It is what it is. And we have no way of knowing what it is.

Besides your assumptions that someoen could have created us, the rest are just illogical assumptions! Evolution doesn't contradict the existance of god, it just makes it more logical to believe that God did create this mechanism and enable for evolution to begin. If there isn't a supernatural being (we call it god, call it whatever you please, for now that's not the point) that created all this, then there's some serious questions you've got to deal with, who revealed the quran to an illiterate person which contains information that was literally beyond reach of the people of his time? As well as the prophecies that have been realised, who revealed those to the prophet? As a rational thinker, it sure does make sense that it was a being that wasn't bound by time/spatial restrictions. not?

They're miracles, miralces by definition are things that are just not part of natural occurrances, sure they can produce babies without a father these days, but no one can produce a child without a father the way it happened with mary (if people think it is, the challenge is open), ofcourse.. you probably don't believe that because you didn't see it, hence why Allah (or whoever you think it is) put on an array of other challenges and signs to appeal to our intellect that he is there. (from literary things to things like fulfilled (and yet to be fulfilled) prophecies as well as scientific things).

When theists attempt to refute that the world could exist without their God they so often fall into circular pattern, as we have seen in this thread.
Part of the issue is your understanding of god... atleast with Muslims, it's just god. not a matter of whether its their god or "our god"..

I dont think i'm going in circles... perhaps commenting on each paragraph would be more useful. And that assumption that the universe could hav existed infinitely needs to stop. Atleast after you realise it goes against second law of thermodynamics.

If you argue that the universe is so complex and unlikely that it couldn't have always been or come to be on its own, then it is inconsistent to say that God (infinitely more complex) could always have been or come to be on its/his/her/their own. And every effort the theist puts into disproving the universe's natural origin just circles right back at the theist's God.

If you start with the premise that everything requires a cause but then claim something that doesn't (God), you have violated your premise and your argument is baseless.

Not at all, when you realise that time isn't something God is bound by. Hence why he's able to tell the prophet of things to come and things that have happened. Simply because he's not restricted by time/spatial dimensions. But we know for that time does govern the universe. So the whole idea of tryign to figure what 'caused' god just falls. Hence his description 'first and the last and the eternal'.

[Trumble]

Umm... as far as scientific facts go... the seven heaven's thing is actually one of the weaker ones. Maybe you should do some research on this also, about what the quran says about the pregnancy of a woman, or the separation between different bodies of waters.

Erm.. "one" of the weaker ones? I've researched all of them, with a reasonably open mind (believe it or not). Some are interesting co-incidences, but its easy to think of alternative explanations for all of them... usually rather more plausible than any scientific insight.

[جوري]

one thing people in the scientific community believe... is that there is no such a thing as a coincidence... let alone many in a series especially considering the time and place they came from.... Betcha if your "great" Buddha had come with half of which the Quran offeres... you'd have been all over it.... It is a psychological thing with people... They are unwilling to open their hearts and minds to what a an Arabic man has brought forth from barren lands...

[cool_jannah]

If you believe that you are accountable to nobody for your actions after you die, you have the worst intellect of all creatures ever created. What sort of justice do athiest believe in if they think that they are not responsible and hence accountable for their actions? This is a major point that athiests are missing out. If you tell me that there is no God, you are inferring to the fact that an innocent person who is born and dies physically challenged with no eyes nor limbs nor legs is the same as the person who is born and dies in a rich. peaceful, healthy family? Do you have any brains? Or you are just trying to run away from the reality of death and afterlife? Trust me there is no hiding place from your Lord! Where will you run?
How stupid is it that a person who is given life and intellect to ponder over the creations ends up concluding that everything that was ever created was by chance!
To Allah you belong and to Him you will return. Everything that is in the heavens and in the earth belons to Allah including your eyes, hands, legs, body and other blessings. It is just the "free-will" that you are misusing that is pulling you away from Allah.
If I come and break in somebody's house and shoot down every single innocent member of the family and then shoot myself, then according to an athiest its all fair game!...Wow!

You will be raised up from your graves after the long sleep on the Day of Judgement and you will definitely be accountable for every single action you ever did. And none but the Almighty ALLAH has the power to do all this. He is the all powerful and all merciful.

[Joe98]

What sort of justice do athiest believe in if they think that they are not responsible and hence accountable for their actions?

Of course I am responsible and accountable for my actions. I would be charged by the police and judged in a court of law.

But that doesn't mean doesn't prove the existance of Mars, or Venus or any other god!

[Joe98]

Religious people say: “if a man is murdered, that is the will of Allah and the murderer will be dealt with by Allah on the day of judgement”.

So why do religious people bother with a court of law on the earth????

Perhaps because deep down you know there is no god!

[Joe98]

He is the all powerful and all merciful.

What is "merciful"?????


Does that mean to forgive the sinners??? The same ones you punished on earth in your court of law?????

[جوري]

What is "merciful"?????


Does that mean to forgive the sinners??? The same ones you punished on earth in your court of law?????

The usual one line rehtoric, please get new material... YAWN!

[Grace Seeker]

Elaborate please.

Pygoscelis had said that he "only speak of good and bad because that is the language given to me. Those labels were not chosen by me but by the society in which I reside. I would prefer to speak in terms of socially constructive and socially destructive and in terms of social taboos." So, I was questioning to see if if was just the terms he didn't like, or if perhaps he claimed to not believe even in the concepts.

[Grace Seeker]

In a sense I believe in right and wrong, but not in the religious meanings of the words. Right and Wrong, Good and Evil, are not things that exist on their own in isolation, they need context. "Right" to me means socially constructive or positive and life enriching. "Wrong" means socially destructive and life destroying. This is hard for me to explain.



I think its a travesty and a completely unecesary one at that. Nobody gains from this and it hurts so many. It is truly sad.



I feel empathy for those who are hurt and outrage at those who have caused the situation. You don't need a sense of Good and Evil to feel these things.

Pygoscelis, unless I am reading you incorrectly, it does seem to me that though you would prefer simpler terms, that you do have a sense of what simplistically (not religiously) might be popularly called a sense of right and a sense of wrong. (Please don't read that to be me saying that you are simplistic, just the choice of words I/we are using.) Perhaps it isn't a moral compass, but some internal compass in you tells you that some things are good and some things it is appropriate to get outraged over. For instance the war actually illicits a sense of sadness from you. There is some sort of "wrongness" to it. Though you would not declare it so based on religious concepts but others that are intrinsic to humanity without a need for identifying them as being from God.

Do I understand you correctly?

[Trumble]

If you believe that you are accountable to nobody for your actions after you die, you have the worst intellect of all creatures ever created. What sort of justice do athiest believe in if they think that they are not responsible and hence accountable for their actions? This is a major point that athiests are missing out. If you tell me that there is no God, you are inferring to the fact that an innocent person who is born and dies physically challenged with no eyes nor limbs nor legs is the same as the person who is born and dies in a rich. peaceful, healthy family?

If I come and break in somebody's house and shoot down every single innocent member of the family and then shoot myself, then according to an athiest its all fair game!...Wow!

I think you may be confusing atheism with anarchism? In the latter case, it would also be "fair game" for the friends and neighbours of the deceased to do the same to your family which is, itself, justice of a sort - "an eye for an eye"?


Atheists believe in human justice, and in the idea that such justice, with an organised system of laws (anarchists aside), must exist for society to exist. It is in everybody's best interest that society, and hence such an agreed system of justice exists. Hence every 'civilised' culture has prohibitions on murder, rape, theft etc - otherwise they coould not exist as societies. Theists also believe in that justice.. otherwise why do Isamic countries have police, Judges and prisons? Why not leave punishment up to God on the "day of Judgement"? Because society has to function, and citizens need to be protected NOW.

Such justice is real. You see it every day, and if you trangress it you will face the consequences. We all know that. So what is being "missed out"? Only the idea that there must be some sort of cosmic justice that sorts out what might get missed on earth, or repairs the sort of inequality you suggest. You insult the atheist 'intellect', but there is no evidence at all that those things, or any 'afterlife' at all, exists. None whatsoever. Why should such cosmic justice should exist; we exist in the universe we have have not the one we want no matter how much we might want something else and whatever ideas we might come up with that allow us to interpret the universe in those terms.

I should point out that I do actually believe in such cosmic justice, in a rather different form. One of the great attractions of Buddhism to me is that that is possible without a God, the universe can do it all by itself without it, or us, having to conjour one up. Either way, though, that belief isn't based on 'intellect' but, as keeps being said, on faith. People are not intellectually deficient just because the nature of their faith is different from yours.

[Pygoscelis]

People are not intellectually deficient just because the nature of their faith is different from yours.

I think that one line is all the response needed to Cool_Jannah's rather insult laden post.

Next time, Cool_Jannah, you may want to avoid declaring people to be stupid and discuss things civilly and make points, as other Muslims here have done.

I'm sure if I "took the bait" and responded in kind, calling you stupid for your belief in the imaginary (which I don't believe to be the case btw) you would be outraged, and rightly so.

[Pygoscelis]

Perhaps it isn't a moral compass, but some internal compass in you tells you that some things are good and some things it is appropriate to get outraged over. For instance the war actually illicits a sense of sadness from you. There is some sort of "wrongness" to it. Though you would not declare it so based on religious concepts but others that are intrinsic to humanity without a need for identifying them as being from God.

It is a moral compas. It is one formed primarily from empathy. Empathy is powerful and isn't even unique to humans. It is found in numerous species and even across species (wimper and look in pain and see how a pet dog reacts. Many will feel your pain and seek to comfort you).

I believe that is such a common trait because it benefits us as a whole to treat each other well.

It is my belief that this moral compas exists in all of us. It is independent from the moral dictates of religion, though sometimes the two interact and one may be seen as the other

For example, I do not believe that if a randomly selected religoius person suddenly lost all faith in their religion they would lose all sense of morality.

Given my observations of deconverts (of which I know many) this has never been the case.

They may lose some arbitrary (that may be the wrong word?) religious taboos such as not eating pork or whatever but they don't start wanting to kill or rape etc.

[- Qatada -]

Hi Pygoscelis.


Muslims believe that we are all born in a state of fitrah. We naturally incline to do good because Allaah Almighty has created us this way. However, as man keeps commiting sin and evil - they turn away from their natural disposition and the more a person dwells into evil, the further they go astray from this natural disposition because with every evil sin commited - a black mark covers the heart, whereas when a person does a good deed - their heart gets covered with a white mark.


When a person continuously sins, their heart gets totally black and the person loses the understanding of good and bad morals. The good seems evil to them, and the evil seems good.


The only way a person can distinguish between good and evil is by understanding the Qur'an - the Criterion, and the Sunnah - ways of Allaah Almighty's messenger (peace be upon him.) When man is void of this guidance, he will keep falling into the dark.. but the Qur'an and Authentic Sunnah is a guidance, and a light for those who want to understand the truth and to live an easy life, in this world and the hereafter.




If you want to read more about fitrah, you can view more info. off this link insha'Allaah.

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/w...p?articleid=74



Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.

[Pygoscelis]

Hi Pygoscelis.

When a person continuously sins, their heart gets totally black and the person loses the understanding of good and bad morals. The good seems evil to them, and the evil seems good.

How do you explain all of the non-muslims (who are continuously sinning by rejecting Allah) living socially constructive lives, not killing, stealing, raping, etc and doing nice things for other people? Does that not fly in the face of fitrah?

[- Qatada -]

The people do fall into the areas where Allaah prohibits them i.e. it may start off with bad company where swearing is common, this may lead to other acts such as joining people who promote relationships outside of marriage, which may lead to fornication etc. When a person falls into this, they find it common whereas they may feel guilty to cheat on someone before they fell into this sin.

As the person continuously does this, they don't feel sorry for the one that they've wronged, and they fall deeper and deeper into the darkness. They start enjoying evil and hating the good.



However, there are some who don't fall into these sins while being non muslims. They may not commit fornication, murder etc. They may not even like the idea of bad company. So they stay away from it due to the fitrah that Allaah Almighty has placed in them. They enjoy good company, and enjoy a simple life. If they are sincere, Allaah may even guide them to the truth because they don't fall into other major sins. This person may be more likely to accept the truth because they realise how islaam is a reflection of their personality.




Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.

[cool_jannah]

..It would also be "fair game" for the friends and neighbours of the deceased to do the same to your family which is, itself, justice of a sort - "an eye for an eye"?

WOW!...This is definitely hilarious...You seem to have no sense of justice whatsoever. So you are telling me that if a psycho kills or orders the killing of 6 million innocent people in gas chambers or tortures them to death, his family should pay for it? WOW!...where are your brains?
Listen buddy..Every soul carries the burden of its own! whether you like it or not!
and thus every soul will be accountable for every single deed, not just crimes or wrong doings, but good actions that the person did. There is no perfect justice in this world! And ALLAH IS ALL JUST....Justice will be done to those who are wronged and the ones that do wrong..
and what can be a worst crime than associating partners with God. That is indeed a horrendous crime. and every soul disbelieving soul will pay for it.

Killing the innocent family members for the crimes that a person does is justice according to athiest? SubhanAllah! What a shame on your intellect. Think about what you said. This something new I leant today and it is extremely shocking and preposterous!

Atheists believe in human justice, and in the idea that such justice, with an organised system of laws (anarchists aside), must exist for society to exist. It is in everybody's best interest that society, and hence such an agreed system of justice exists. Hence every 'civilised' culture has prohibitions on murder, rape, theft etc - otherwise they coould not exist as societies. Theists also believe in that justice.. otherwise why do Isamic countries have police, Judges and prisons? Why not leave punishment up to God on the "day of Judgement"? Because society has to function, and citizens need to be protected NOW.

Don't ever complain about adulterers and murderes getting beheaded then. That is justice for them in this world. It is far better to get punished here then to be punished in the Hell fire. Because remember the punishment over there is extremely severe...If Allah wills to punish someone..no power or creation can ever say that my punishment is worse than Allah's punishment.
And ALLAH IS ALL FORGIVING AND MERCIFUL! one sincere repentance is enough to wash away all murders and rapes and other nonsense that you use to do! Except for Shirk! DO NOT associate partners to ALLAH.

[Abdul Fattah]

How do you explain all of the non-muslims (who are continuously sinning by rejecting Allah) living socially constructive lives, not killing, stealing, raping, etc and doing nice things for other people? Does that not fly in the face of fitrah?

There are difrent levels of sin. Some are universally detested (like the examples you gave) while others are in some places socially accepted. Take lies for example. Although everybody knows that a lie is bad, a lot of people will tell you that it's ok if it's for a good cause. But whenever a person lies he obviously has a motive,people don't just lie foir the fun of it. So isn't that motive a good cause in their eyes? Where do they draw the line. We could go on like this for hour discussing all the sins. How about gossip. It's obviously a bad thing and almost everyone has been a victem of it once or twice and has thus felt the effect of this, yet so many people see it as something trivial. So why are these sins neglected and the others avoided? Perhaps because of the severity of the sin. Or maybe it's just because these sins are easyer to commit, whereas the more severe sins pose quite some practical objections. How about I try one of your examples. Stealing. Most people won't steal other's people belongings out of empathy because they know it's not nice to be stolen from. But how many of those same people have no problem at all taking office suplies or hotel-bathroomtowels back home? Is that not stealing?

I'll try putting it in more general terms. A disbeliever will do good and avoid bad only for personal reasons, empathy for others or punishment/reward. If the reasons don't aply to a given situation. Then they will no longer feel the need to do or not do something. They will tend to make excuses along the lines of: it won't hurt anybody (against empathy); nobody will find out; the law isn't perfect (against punishment and reward) and so on. As for the believer, he will do good and avoid bad from his faith. Yes there's also punishment and reward playing a role there, but it is also a form of worship and the believer should stick to the rules regardless the circumstances.

I think if you'll be fair you'll be forced to admit that in general religious people tend to be nicer, less agressive, more patient and sin less (in general, there are of course exceptions on both sides). And I don't say this in an attempt to be condescending towards atheist. To each his own; it's just an objective observation I'm making here.

[Pygoscelis]

I think you are blinded by bias when you make this statement. Religious folk are generally nicer, less agressive and more patient than non religious folk? I think not. Religion and intolerance go hand in hand more often than not. Moreover, jail populations show that the percentage of athiests incarcerated is far lower than the percentage of ahteists in the general population.

Religion is just another way to create US vs a THEM, espcially monotheistic religoin that declares that it is the only proper way to live and its God is the only God that may be worshiped and that all others are inferior. As soon as you have religions declaring this you're going to have a less than tolerant society.

It also gives believers means to justify injustice in thier minds. And a means to internally alleviate guilt.

Religoiusly caused nastiness ranges from the mild (believers decreeing that nonbelievers can not know morality, forced 'morality' such as bans on homosexual marriage and store closures on Sundays, etc) to the moderate ( stopping non believers or believers in other religions from holding land , from holding public office, or testifying in court or voting, ) to the severe (murder of heretics, human sacrifice, religious wars, forced conversions of entire foreign nations of 'savages' etc)

Through history religious folk have have frequently hated and warred against others not sharing their faith, from Ireland (Catholics vs Protestants) to the middle east (Jews vs Muslims) to the middle ages (Spanish inquisition, crusades etc) and pretty much all throghout history, from ancient Roman pagans throwing christians to lions to ancient egyptians enslaving jews (as per the bible).

And then there are those who do wild and crazy things to their followers from human sacrifice in old religions (including abrahamic) to burning witches (which went on for centuries, not just a few isolated incodents) to craziiness like Jim Jones, David Koresh, and Fred Phelps.

I could go on and on on this subject but I don't think it is necesary. Suffice it to say that I strongly disagree that religious folks are generally nicer and more accepting and less aggressive than non religious folk. They may be kinder to those who hold their same religion, but even there infighting is common.

And that you assume it to be a universally held belief that it is so (saying to be 'fair' I'd have to agree) shows a massive bias on your part.[/QUOTE]

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Ummm u made a double post.....:hiding:
Well lower or not they ARE still there...:hiding:

[Pygoscelis]

oops I tried to edit my post and I inadvertantly posted again. Read the one above this one instead of the one 2 up.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

i did already lol...anyways carry on..

[Pygoscelis]

Well lower or not they ARE still there..

If you are refering to what I said about jail populations, yes they are still there. But the proportion of them incarcerated is lower. Their numbers in prison are not representative. A larger percetage of religious folk (in the west) are incarcerated than non-religoius folk.

That on its own doesn't prove that religious folk are less moral but it is evidence in that direction and when combined with the rest of my post above it certainly rebuffs the claim that "religious folk are obviously nicer and less aggressive".

[Trumble]

WOW!...This is definitely hilarious...You seem to have no sense of justice whatsoever. So you are telling me that if a psycho kills or orders the killing of 6 million innocent people in gas chambers or tortures them to death, his family should pay for it? WOW!...where are your brains?

Go re-read what I posted before you make even more of a fool of yourself. No, I was not telling you that. I was explaining what the consequences of an anarchist (go look it up) society might be, not those of an atheistic society or what I personally believe. You might even ponder as to why I used the phrase "an eye for eye".

Killing the innocent family members for the crimes that a person does is justice according to athiest? SubhanAllah! What a shame on your intellect. Think about what you said. This something new I leant today and it is extremely shocking and preposterous!

The only thing you need to learn today is that before you insult other people's 'intellect' you might need to develop your own a little, or at least your reading comprehension skills. It's not generally a good idea even then, but for once I'll ignore my own advice.;)

[Pygoscelis]

The only thing you need to learn today is that before you insult other people's 'intellect' you might need to develop your own a little, or at least your reading comprehension skills. It's not generally a good idea even then, but for once I'll ignore my own advice.;)

:giggling: Too true.

1. Try being civil and stop trying to insult people.

2. If you can't do the above at least make your insults coherent and not so ironic. You were calling this fellow stupid due to your own error in reading what he wrote. You tried to make somebody look dumb but only accomplished making yourself look dumb.

[Skillganon]

Undeniably a very strong argument, to which no theist ever seems able to come up with an even vaguely satisfactory answer.

It's easy to understand the perception that things such as complex biochemical systems could not have come about by chance, but the introduction of God as a 'watchmaker' only enhances the problem, not solves it. As you say, why does the universe require a creator while God does not? Ultimately something must have come into being without a creative intelligence behind it, so surely common sense, or at at least Occam's law, dictates that thing should be a simple as possible, not as complex as possible?

SO the argument goes, if the universe was created by God in some mechanism. Than how or who created God or how did he come into existance.

This kind of argument actually very weak and can carry on in a continouse cycle.

Ultimately the answer will lead to, that something existed in the beggining.

You will say the essence of matter, (not going into detail) existed in the beggining and from their the whole universe came into being under some elaborate mechanism after billions of year's.

We theist say the creator exist "He has no beggining no end (uncreated)" eternal and abolute, and he created the whole universe with elaborate mechanism over a period of time.

It is not complex to believe in a creator.

[Pygoscelis]

It amazes me how this point continuously flys over the heads of theists. Maybe something about religious belief blinds them to it somehow?

If you start with the premise that everything must have a cause, you have eliminated the possibility of a first cause. If you accept that something (God) doesn't require a cause, then the premise you started with is violated.

I'll try to put it into ten points of logic to illustrate the flaw...

1. A building is wonderful and complicated. Buildings are created by man.

2. Something wonderful and complicated must be created by intelligent design. (The classic theistic argument)
(Flaw In Logic: Generalization from an example)

3. Man is wonderful and complicated, even moreso than a building.

4. Man must therefore have been created by intelligent design (following 2 above)

5. God must have created man
(Flaw In Logic: Numerous origins are possible, even if intelligently designed, aliens for example)

6. God is wonderful and complex, even moreseo than man.

7. God must therefore be created by intelligent design (following 2 above and showing its fault)

8. But no, God has always existed.

9. Point 2 above must therefore be faulty.

10. Since point 2 above is faulty, point 4 and 7 above are invalid.

[Skillganon]

It amazes me how this point continuously flys over the heads of theists. Maybe something about religious belief blinds them to it somehow?

If you start with the premise that everything must have a cause, you have eliminated the possibility of a first cause. If you accept that something (God) doesn't require a cause, then the premise you started with is violated.

I'll try to put it into ten points of logic to illustrate the flaw...

1. A building is wonderful and complicated. Buildings are created by man.

2. Something wonderful and complicated must be created by intelligent design. (The classic theistic argument)
(Flaw In Logic: Generalization from an example)

3. Man is wonderful and complicated, even moreso than a building.

4. Man must therefore have been created by intelligent design (following 2 above)

5. God must have created man
(Flaw In Logic: Numerous origins are possible, even if intelligently designed, aliens for example)

6. God is wonderful and complex, even moreseo than man.

7. God must therefore be created by intelligent design (following 2 above and showing its fault)

8. But no, God has always existed.

9. Point 2 above must therefore be faulty.

10. Since point 2 above is faulty, point 4 and 7 above are invalid.

The point I am making you do believe something existed in the beginning.

non-theist go to do the primordial matter. Theist go one step further i.e. God.

(Here I have not touched on the Big Bang theory/creation of the univers in detail)

Actualy theist don't say "Creator" has a cause.
Neither do you say the primordial matter has a cause.

Nothing blind about it.

[Trumble]

SO the argument goes, if the universe was created by God in some mechanism. Than how or who created God or how did he come into existance.

This kind of argument actually very weak and can carry on in a continouse cycle.

Ultimately the answer will lead to, that something existed in the beggining.

You will say the essence of matter, (not going into detail) existed in the beggining and from their the whole universe came into being under some elaborate mechanism after billions of year's.

We theist say the creator exist "He has no beggining no end (uncreated)" eternal and abolute, and he created the whole universe with elaborate mechanism over a period of time.

It is not complex to believe in a creator.

If you must quote me, please don't assign arguments to me that I am not making?

No, I will not say that. My argument would be that space-time itself did not exist until the universe did. Talk of a 'beginning' before that, or of anything, God or otherwise, having some external existence outside that makes no sense, and is a contradiction in terms. It is quite true that that would mean God could come into existence without the need for a creator... but so could everything else He is supposed to have created. What He might have done with it after that is a different question!

That aside, the argument you refer to is not 'weak' for the reason you describe. The fact it suggests a continuous chain (rather than cycle) is its whole point. The theist response does nothing more than side-step it by introducing more complexity; i.e a being that for some reason conveniently doesn't have to follow the the same 'rules' as everything else in the universe.

[New_Muslim]

The exsistence of God can be proven through the Holy Qu'ran and understanding the life of Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) The Qu'ran is remarkably well written for a man who wasnt a scholar or anything. He lived a much more righteous life than many of the other people who were largely pagan. This was inspired by Allah.

[glo]

The exsistence of God can be proven through the Holy Qu'ran and understanding the life of Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) The Qu'ran is remarkably well written for a man who wasnt a scholar or anything. He lived a much more righteous life than many of the other people who were largely pagan. This was inspired by Allah.

Greeting New Muslim

You are talking about personal conviction here. Strong as that may be, it is not proof!

I do not think God's existance can be proven to a non-believer, even if we, as believers, feel that we have 'personal proof' of his existance - either through belief in a holy book or through a personal experience.
If somebody's heart is not prepared to believe, all the 'proof' in the world will fall on stony ground ...

peace

[Re.TiReD]

hey people...

I believe in God....but some people don't

I mean it's life isnt it...some people can see the truth, some people cant and others have different definitions of 'truth'

but the fact of the matter is...if you dont want to listen...or to believe, no amount of evidence or explanation will help.

most people when they come onto this thread arrive in a certain state of mind....the Muslims are on the defensive and the non-muslims more often than not prepared to criticise (in a good way of course :okay: )

anyway what I'm trying to say is that Allah guides whom He wills and those that are not guided will never truley be

If you come with an open mind....Allah knows best what will happen but until then, its pointless if you're always prepared to argue but never to consider

[- Qatada -]

Pygoscelis, your theory is flawed. The reason for that is because yes - humans are an amazing creation, so are all the animals, buildings etc.

However, the flaw is that mankind has weaknesses, and man isn't perfect. Man isn't self sufficient and he depends on a greater power for help. If Allaah Almighty withholds the rain, there will be no food, water, and after a little while - the creation will die (which is another flaw within the creation.)




Does Allaah need food/water? Allaah isn't dependant on the creation. He doesn't need someone else to turn to for help, but instead He is self-sufficient. Allaah is Perfect in every way, whereas the creation isn't.

All that is on the earth will perish. But will abide (for ever) the Face of thy Lord,- full of Majesty, Bounty and Honour. [Qur'an (55:26-27)]

Why would the Most Perfect being need a Creator? He doesn't because He is the Creator. If someone is perfect, then they do not have flaws. If they don't have flaws, that means they aren't dependant on anything else. And Allaah is not dependant on anything whatsoever, whereas all the creation is dependant upon Him, the Almighty.



Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.

[Trumble]

However, the flaw is that mankind has weaknesses, and man isn't perfect. Man isn't self sufficient and he depends on a greater power for help. If Allaah Almighty withholds the rain, there will be no food, water, and after a little while - the creation will die (which is another flaw within the creation.)

Quite apart from the flaw that you are trying show that God exists by assuming he does, and that I could easily argue man (or at least his genes) is perfectly self-sufficient providing he/they are prepared to take casualties along the way, I don't see how you think you are exposing a weakness in Pygoscelis's position?

You are assuming (again) that imperfect things need an intelligent designer, while perfect things (i.e God), for some reason, do not. Why? "He doesn't because He is the Creator" is another assumption (with no justification that I can see), not an explanation. There is simply no link between the two.

I'd also ask why God would have deliberately designed something imperfect, i.e us? Presumably designing perfection was in His powers? It must be or He himself could not be perfect. The only reason your post would suggest is that is was to set-up some sort of dependency on Him - why? To me that's right up there with the idea of a perfect being would create creatures just to worship him - it's nonsense because such a being would have no ego that required anything to worship him, or depend on him.

[Woodrow]

Quite apart from the flaw that you are trying show that God exists by assuming he does, and that I could easily argue man (or at least his genes) is perfectly self-sufficient providing he/they are prepared to take casualties along the way, I don't see how you think you are exposing a weakness in Pygoscelis's position?

You are assuming (again) that imperfect things need an intelligent designer, while perfect things (i.e God), for some reason, do not. Why? "He doesn't because He is the Creator" is another assumption (with no justification that I can see), not an explanation. There is simply no link between the two.

I'd also ask why God would have deliberately designed something imperfect, i.e us? Presumably designing perfection was in His powers? It must be or He himself could not be perfect. The only reason your post would suggest is that is was to set-up some sort of dependency on Him - why? To me that's right up there with the idea of a perfect being would create creatures just to worship him - it's nonsense because such a being would have no ego that required anything to worship him, or depend on him.

Very good points and are very accurate, if God(swt) does not exist.

However, God(swt) does exist and that leaves the statements as being assumptions.

You will not accept any reasons I have to know that God(swt) exists and you would never see any of them as proof. I can not offer any visable, quantafiable proof. It does not even make sense to even think of trying to offer proof in terms of quantification and qualification. That would require measurement of some aspect of God(swt). By His very nature God(swt) is infinite in all aspects. If we could develop a tool to physicaly measure an aspect of God(swt) that would be a limitation and would actualy be verification that God(swt) is not infinite and therefore not God(swt). To me it makes sense that we can not measure Him.


Since we can not provide replicable physical evidence, our source has to rely on the times He chose to reveal Himself to mankind. That we call the words of the Prophets. For myself and many believers that is sufficient.

To understand the basis for belief, a person has to see beyond what is measurable and has to have a spark of the thing we refer to as faith. I know faith exists. I believe the source of faith is God(swt)

I'm satisfied.

[Trumble]

I'm satisfied.

Which is fair enough, of course.

I'd still be curious, though, to see answer to my last point assuming that God does exist. Why, when being perfect, would He choose (for a choice it must have been) to create us imperfect which I suspect we can all agree on we are most certainly are?

[Woodrow]

Which is fair enough, of course.

I'd still be curious, though, to see answer to my last point assuming that God does exist. Why, when being perfect, would He choose (for a choice it must have been) to create us imperfect which I suspect we can all agree on we are most certainly are?

I am sure this is not the only reason. But, my personal view is so that we would have freedom of choice, and be aware that we do have the choice to not believe in him and to deliberatly sin if we so choose to do so.

[- Qatada -]

Quite apart from the flaw that you are trying show that God exists by assuming he does, and that I could easily argue man (or at least his genes) is perfectly self-sufficient providing he/they are prepared to take casualties along the way, I don't see how you think you are exposing a weakness in Pygoscelis's position?

Even if a person has healthy genes. It still doesn't make him self sufficient because food, water and other sources that mankind depends on are out of the equation.

You are assuming (again) that imperfect things need an intelligent designer, while perfect things (i.e God), for some reason, do not. Why? "He doesn't because He is the Creator" is another assumption (with no justification that I can see), not an explanation. There is simply no link between the two.



I'd also ask why God would have deliberately designed something imperfect, i.e us? Presumably designing perfection was in His powers? It must be or He himself could not be perfect. The only reason your post would suggest is that is was to set-up some sort of dependency on Him - why? To me that's right up there with the idea of a perfect being would create creatures just to worship him - it's nonsense because such a being would have no ego that required anything to worship him, or depend on him.

Allaah Almighty created us imperfect, and He has the power over all things. Creating us imperfect shows our weakness in this world and if we were created perfect - then why would we want to turn to Allaah Almighty anyway? One of the greatest time a person turns to God is in times of distress, and hardship. They feel that they don't have power over everything, so they turn to a greater power, and that is Allaah/God or whatever they choose to call Him - He is the same God that they all know of.

However, they may worship other idols, people etc. while still believing in the One God (this is even believed in hinduism who are common for the use of idols.) They only believe these idols, people etc. are a way of getting closer to the Creator, God.



Turning to Allaah for help is also a form of worship, so its a two way thing. When man is in need of help, he turns to Allaah, and Allaah will help the person if he/she is sincere. So worship benefits the creation, and it is a way of pleasing the Creator. Allaah Almighty isn't dependant on being worshipped by mankind, because Allaah is eternal, but mankind has only come to life since a limited amount of time.




Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.

[Grace Seeker]

My argument would be that space-time itself did not exist until the universe did. Talk of a 'beginning' before that, or of anything, God or otherwise, having some external existence outside that makes no sense, and is a contradiction in terms. It is quite true that that would mean God could come into existence without the need for a creator... but so could everything else He is supposed to have created. What He might have done with it after that is a different question!

It is more than that God exists outside of time. Time is a dimension. Just like space is a dimension. Now we understand how a dot is a singularity and has only one dimension. A line is two dimensions. If one exists in the world of the dot, even though that dot is part of a line, the dot is oblivious to the existance of that line because it is unable to observe outside of itself. Similarly a two-dimensional being can exist in the three-dimensional world of a cube, but would never be able to observe the cube. Though a line might travel all over the cube the plane of it's existence would be limited to just that, a plane. Now human's a four dimension beings, that is we are capable of observing things in 3 dimensions of space, plus time. But if there is an existence outside of those 5 dimensions, our sense are not equipped to obseve it. That doesn't mean such an entity would not exist, but that at best we could only observe it (and for that matter our language would be limited to speak of it) only in terms of the 4 dimensions we understand.

So, in this sense (no pun intended) we cannot prove God. However, rather than conceiving of God as simply creating the world, how about conceiving of the dimensions we live in existing in yet a 5th dimension. String theorists believe have postulated as many as 10 dimensions. Now I am not at this moment going to put a label on any of those other dimensions or aspects of them for you, but if you can conceive of this, then certainly you can conceive that their might also be other entities that exist in those dimensions. Might it be possible that God isn't simply existing outside of time and space, but that time and space (hence our entire universe) only exist wiith the context of God, just like a line only exists within the context of a plane?

[Trumble]

Even if a person has healthy genes. It still doesn't make him self sufficient because food, water and other sources that mankind depends on are out of the equation.

You miss my point. It's nothing to with somebody having healthy genes, its whether the gene pool itself survives. Man as in the walking-talking entity can be considered just a mechanism for that. Of course people need food, water, air etc. That doesn't mean a God is needed to provide them, and whether there is a God or not, sometimes they are deprived of those and other things, and die.

Creating us imperfect shows our weakness in this world and if we were created perfect - then why would we want to turn to Allaah Almighty anyway? One of the greatest time a person turns to God is in times of distress, and hardship

That's precisely what I don't understand and the point I addressed to Woodrow; WHY does God need us to "turn to" him? For what purpose? Why could he have not created perfect beings who would not kill, steal, cheat, lie and otherwise cause misery to their fellows? Or, if you think that would preclude free will, why not give us free will and then just leave us to get on with it?

I agree totally that God wouldn't be "dependent on being worshipped by mankind", if He exists as you perceive Him. But that doesn't explain why He would want to be worshipped, let alone create us just to do it.

[Pygoscelis]

[INDENT]Pygoscelis, your theory is flawed.

What theory?

I was showing the flaw in common theistic reasoning that "there must be a creator God"

I don't recall making any claims of my own.

[New_Muslim]

Greeting New Muslim

You are talking about personal conviction here. Strong as that may be, it is not proof!

I do not think God's existance can be proven to a non-believer, even if we, as believers, feel that we have 'personal proof' of his existance - either through belief in a holy book or through a personal experience.
If somebody's heart is not prepared to believe, all the 'proof' in the world will fall on stony ground ...

peace

When studying Islam you will find there is proof of God. Islam is truth, Islam is pure. If anyone needs more proof, just look around the forum. There are great examples of why Islam is truth everywhere.

[Pygoscelis]

God(swt)

What is (swt)? I've seen (pbuh) meaning pace be upon him but never encountered (swt) before.

To understand the basis for belief, a person has to see beyond what is measurable and has to have a spark of the thing we refer to as faith. I know faith exists. I believe the source of faith is God(swt)

The problem with that sort of reasoning for a non-believer is that this 'faith' could lead you to believe ANYTHING. One could have faith in invisible aliens all around us and nobody could prove them wrong.

[Pygoscelis]

There are great examples of why Islam is truth everywhere.

Only to the mind of a believer in Islam.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

What is (swt)? I've seen (pbuh) meaning pace be upon him but never encountered (swt) before

SWT stands for Subhana Wa'ta'ala which I think in English it means Glorified and Exalted be He. Not sure...?

[New_Muslim]

SWT stands for Subhana Wa'ta'ala which I think in English it means Glorified and Exalted be He. Not sure...?

what about (SAW)?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

what about (SAW)?

That stands for "Sallallaahu 'Alayhi Wa Sallaam." The English form is "Peace be Upon Him" or (pbuh).

Anyway, dont wana go off topic..:hiding:

[Abdul Fattah]

I think you are blinded by bias when you make this statement. Religious folk are generally nicer, less agressive and more patient than non religious folk? I think not. Religion and intolerance go hand in hand more often than not. Moreover, jail populations show that the percentage of athiests incarcerated is far lower than the percentage of ahteists in the general population.

First of all I 'd like to point out I was refering to muslim vs non muslim and not to theist vs non-theist. So the statistics of religious people in prison isn't really relevant since I expect they would include a fair number of christians and jews to. And even if it were relevant there's still teh posibility of them aqcuiring religion from incarceration, instead of the other way around as you suggested.

So about the bias, Well we obviously have two opposing paradigms, and I could just as easely dismiss your comments by saying that you are biased and technically we would be both right. But I don't think eitherone of us will get something from that. So let me invite you to look at both of our "bias". You said I was wrong based on "many religious peopel acting bad". Even if that is statisticly right, which I don't think it is, you have to realise that these acts are acts not allowed in religion and you have to question how sincere these people are in their religion, and wheter you can judge religion for the malpractise of some people. As for my argument, it was based on the fact that religion dictates us to do good. From a neutral point of view I'd say my argument is better supported whereas yours relies on questionable claims of statistics. So I wouldn't be to quick calling people biased.

Religion is just another way to create US vs a THEM, espcially monotheistic religoin that declares that it is the only proper way to live and its God is the only God that may be worshiped and that all others are inferior. As soon as you have religions declaring this you're going to have a less than tolerant society. It also gives believers means to justify injustice in thier minds. And a means to internally alleviate guilt.

Well ask yourself the following hypothetical question, if religion would be true, wouldn't it be logical that a mercifull God shows us the best way to live life and that he'd invitus to stay away from false religions? And wouldn't it be logical that if Satan really exists that he tries to devide us and them; tries to fight people? I get you don't believe all of that but you're running in circles again.

I don't believe in God -> there must be another reason for teh existance of religion -> it must be a device of control then or an attempt to cope with injustice -> so that means I shouldn't believe in God.

Religoiusly caused nastiness ranges from the mild (believers decreeing that nonbelievers can not know morality,

Nobody says that non-believers have no moralty at all, but they have it to a lesser degree. I can see how you find it offensive, but give it the benefit of the doubt, because if it's accurate then you cannot dismiss it as "nasty". Take alcohol for example; it is obvious that there is some part of bad in it. Now You could argue that banning it is going to far because the benefit wouldn't outweigh the freedom one has to give up. However what you cannot deny is that the one who avoids alcohol to avoid the downsides acts more morally then the one who doesn't. You cannot deny the simple relative difrence even if you don't agree with the necesity against it.

forced 'morality' such as bans on homosexual marriage and store closures on Sundays, etc) to the moderate ( stopping non believers or believers in other religions from holding land , from holding public office, or testifying in court or voting, ) to the severe (murder of heretics, human sacrifice, religious wars, forced conversions of entire foreign nations of 'savages' etc)

In that line of reasoning one can dismiss every single kind of laws ,morality or ethics wheter we are talking about religious ones or secular ones. I consider every single rule to be justified. You should know that a lot of rules you mentioned do not exist in Islam, as for specific rules in Islamic shariah, I welcome you to discuss any given one in this forum and you'll see that they are not unfair at all.

Through history religious folk have have frequently hated and warred against others not sharing their faith, from Ireland (Catholics vs Protestants) to the middle east (Jews vs Muslims) to the middle ages (Spanish inquisition, crusades etc) and pretty much all throghout history, from ancient Roman pagans throwing christians to lions to ancient egyptians enslaving jews (as per the bible).

So you're saying some peopel are being persecuted for their fate so if we leave out faith things are ok? That's like saying, if only those africans became white then we wouldn't have to deeal with racism anymore. The problem lies not with the victems but with the wrongdoers. And just because religion is easely abused as scapegoat doesn't mean that religion is bad, nor does it mean that we should just ignore religion.

And then there are those who do wild and crazy things to their followers from human sacrifice in old religions (including abrahamic) to burning witches (which went on for centuries, not just a few isolated incodents) to craziiness like Jim Jones, David Koresh, and Fred Phelps.

Well again, whatever examples you have in mind they wll be either un-islamic or perfectly justifiable and logical if you 'd look at them in depth.

And that you assume it to be a universally held belief that it is so (saying to be 'fair' I'd have to agree) shows a massive bias on your part.

Or then agin, maybe my assumption just showed that I expected you to be less biased then you actually are.

You have to admire the irony though, of the bias that was in your last statement. :okay:

[Pygoscelis]

First of all I 'd like to point out I was refering to muslim vs non muslim and not to theist vs non-theist.

Ok, the following is what you wrote though, and from it I saw no restriction to Islamic religious folk.

I think if you'll be fair you'll be forced to admit that in general religious people tend to be nicer, less agressive, more patient and sin less (in general, there are of course exceptions on both sides).

I could just as easely dismiss your comments by saying that you are biased and technically we would be both right.

Yes of course I am biased. Everybody has a bias. But you claimed that "to be fair" your view must be adhered to. That is what I was objecting to and why I highlighted your bias.

You have to realise that these acts are acts not allowed in religion and you have to question how sincere these people are in their religion

Not allowed in religion? Numerous religions actually instruct much of this nastiness if you interpret their scripture in a certain way. Often the literal translation tells you to do horrible things, like stone children to death etc.

To say it is not allowed in religion and religion demands that we all be nice and get along is only one of many interpretations of the religious scripture and you'll find just as many religious people who follow a polar opposite interpretation.

I strongly believe that most people throughout history who have done terrible things in the name of religion truly believed that they were following their God.

From a neutral point of view I'd say my argument is better supported whereas yours relies on questionable claims of statistics.

Um, yes mine had some statistics (objective measurements) attached whereas yours was entirely subjective. And yours is better supported?

Well ask yourself the following hypothetical question, if religion would be true, wouldn't it be logical that a mercifull God shows us the best way to live life and that he'd invitus to stay away from false religions?

Well it'd be even better if he led everybody to see his way as true, rather than have millions of religions and millions more divisions within each one. If there is one True (tm) religion, you'd think it'd be a bit more clear. And its terrible all the violence and hatred that has erupted due to this confusion.

Now if you are monotheistic and believe that your God is the one True God and all others are false, then look to two groups of people with competing false gods that are not your own and you can see the phenomenon as I see it.

Each of these groups believes their God to be the only God at the exclusion of all others an their way to be the only way. They will inevitably push their view upon the other goup, because they want to save the other group's souls or whatever. They may even be commanded by scripture to slay the other group if they will not convert, which has happened numerous times throughout history. Intolerance and violence abound.

[quote]
there must be another reason for teh existance of religion -> it must be a device of control then or an attempt to cope with injustice [/quote[

Actually I think each of those steps can be followed whether or not you believe in a God. Religion most certainly is used as a device to control (I doubt anybody would dispute that) and most certainly is a means of coping with injustice (again fairly obvious).

-> so that means I shouldn't believe in God.

This step doesn't follow and isn't relevant to the ones you put before it.

Nobody says that non-believers have no moralty at all

Actually you may be suprised at the number of religoius folk out there who do claim to believe this. I'm glad you are not one of them.

You should know that a lot of rules you mentioned do not exist in Islam

Note that the post I was making applied to religions in general, as that seemed to be what you were writing about. I don't claim to know much about Islamic rules.

It is refreshing to hear you say that Islam doesn't have terrible rules such as those I referred to above. I don't know Islamic rules well enough to dispute this.

So you're saying some peopel are being persecuted for their fate (I'm assuming you meant faith) so if we leave out faith things are ok?

No, I was referring to people acting out of their faith and doing nasty things, not people having nasty things done to them because of their faith (though the latter often coincides with the former, given 2 groups of faith infused people).

Well again, whatever examples you have in mind they wll be either un-islamic or perfectly justifiable and logical if you 'd look at them in depth.

So Islamic doctrine has never demanded or justified human sacrifice, doesn't give special rights to muslims that non-muslims don't get or tax non-muslims, doesn't command the slaying or other nasty things being done to infidels or apostates, doesn't close stores or otherwise interrupt the lives of non-muslims, etc?

That is very nice to hear and I hope it is true. You are motivating me to read up on it, for I find it doubtful. It'd make it very unique amongst religions.

I'm curious what in Islamic scripture is being interpretted (misinterpretted?) by terrorists and the like to have them claim they do what they do in the name of Islam. Is it just a blanket statement of "Islam tells me to do this" or do they cite specific verses over and over like the crazy Christians do?

Or then agin, maybe my assumption just showed that I expected you to be less biased then you actually are.

Your statement wasn't somthing like "I believe that..." or "some believe that...". It was and I quote "if you'll be fair you'll be forced to admit that..". That is clear and rabid bias that had to be pointed out.

Wouldn't you object to me saying that "to be fair you'd have to admit that Allah is a product of your culture and imagination"? Thats the equivalent of what you wrote.

I don't expect you to admit, or to even accept that, because clearly you don't. And I don't consider your stance "unfair". If I did write as if I expected you to admit that and that your not admitting it is "unfair" or dishonest then I'd be showing the same degree of bias you did.