to the non-muslims on here...

how would you react if your country was invaded? would you fight back? would you support the resistance either verbally, with money and financial help or perhaps even physically join them in their effort?

would such people as terrorists if that happened or someone fighting for the freedom of your people to live their own way of life?

now what if such an invasion force began destroying your schools, closing them down or forcing them to teach a curicullum that promoted their way of life and denegrated your's,.

how would you feel about such occupation schools?
would you think of them as a building and institution worthy of support or destruction?

ask yourself if such invasions occured on and off for a period of hundreds of years, with parts of your land being taken and handed to other nations to run despite the wishes of the people living there.
how would you feel then if you had such a history?

now imagine that one of these lands that was taken from the whole 50 or 100 or 200 years ago rebels against such oppression and fights to rejoin the lands together again? are such people terrorists or is their cause just?

imagine that your country had been invaded and a puppet ruler placed in charge, perhaps like the vichy regime in france during WWII? how would you view such a government? such a ruler?
would you see the ruler as good or a puppet no matter how good or bad his policies were?
would you view those who fought for such a government or worked them as just doing a job or as traitors?

imagine of this happening to your land, how would you feel?
perhaps at the end of this you will understand how we as muslims feel, one of the greatest ways of solving conflicts is looking to see things from the 'other' point of view.

A terrorist is a terrorist. If you load a car full of explosives and detonate it at a wedding party or a funeral, you are not fighting the evil Americans, you are killing Muslims. Does this chaos make it more difficult for the Iraqi government, who the Iraqi people put in place?, obviously. The whole diatribe in the above post is based on a false premise. I know many Muslims, usually adolescent males living in Western countries, like to believe in some noble grand gathering of god-fearing Muslims fighting to resist the evil colonial West. It is a myth, and not even a good one.

Keltoi said:

A terrorist is a terrorist. If you load a car full of explosives and detonate it at a wedding party or a funeral, you are not fighting the evil Americans, you are killing Muslims. Does this chaos make it more difficult for the Iraqi government, who the Iraqi people put in place?, obviously. The whole diatribe in the above post is based on a false premise. I know many Muslims, usually adolescent males living in Western countries, like to believe in some noble grand gathering of god-fearing Muslims fighting to resist the evil colonial West. It is a myth, and not even a good one.

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i notice you didnt answer any of the questions. what if it was you and your country? how would you react?

Keltoi said:

A terrorist is a terrorist. If you load a car full of explosives and detonate it at a wedding party or a funeral, you are not fighting the evil Americans, you are killing Muslims. Does this chaos make it more difficult for the Iraqi government, who the Iraqi people put in place?, obviously. The whole diatribe in the above post is based on a false premise. I know many Muslims, usually adolescent males living in Western countries, like to believe in some noble grand gathering of god-fearing Muslims fighting to resist the evil colonial West. It is a myth, and not even a good one.

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For arguments sake I see you perspecyive of thinking, but, as brother Dawud has asked you, what would you do in such a situation.
I'll tell you a story from palestine, and what would you do in the guy's situation? Tell me what would you do if some people, after first invading your country, then come to your house and tie you up, and force you to watch them rape, then kill your mother and sister??? And then they let you go, how would you feel. If you were to react against these people, how would you do so.

Stories like the above make "A what would you do" question, impossible for me to answer, because I just can't imagine how I would feel in such a situation. But many people in the west, including myself even, are ignorant of what people in places like palestine go through

Well, my country was also invaded by the nazis in WWII, but we still knew who was our enemy: The Nazis !
We didn't blow up innocent civilians with bombs on suicide attacks, neither flew airplanes in buildings. No, we fight against the army, and ONLY the army !
Neither we yell, we do our action in the name of god ! That makes the difference !

guyabano said:

Well, my country was also invaded by the nazis in WWII, but we still knew who was our enemy: The Nazis !
We didn't blow up innocent civilians with bombs on suicide attacks, neither flew airplanes in buildings. No, we fight against the army, and ONLY the army !
Neither we yell, we do our action in the name of god ! That makes the difference !

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i am sorry which country are you referring to?

there were certainly instances of the resistance in france and other european countries attacking those working for the govt whether soldiers or not as they were viewed 'colaborators.'

Abu Abdullah

Dawud_uk said:

i am sorry which country are you referring to?

there were certainly instances of the resistance in france and other european countries attacking those working for the govt whether soldiers or not as they were viewed 'colaborators.'

Abu Abdullah

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Working for the government? collaborators? What are these people working with the government to achieve? What are "collaborators" working to achieve? There was an election in Iraq, and despite the need for some to believe it was a conspiracy, the people elected who they wanted to represent them. So who is really working against the Iraqi people here? Are the soldiers standing around attempting to stop car bombs from going off?, or is it those noble insurgents of yours who kidnap men and women and torture and decaptiate them? Who in Iraq is fighting for peace and who is fighting for chaos and death? Perhaps you should ask yourself these questions and look at them honestly.

islam says don't kill
children
Elderly and
women
it says just fight thoughs who fight you which is the army so what people are doing is Wrong in the name of Islam

lilly_rose said:

islam says don't kill
children
Elderly and
women
it says just fight thoughs who fight you which is the army so what people are doing is Wrong in the name of Islam

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That is just the point I'm trying to make. These people doing the car bombing, beheading, torture, etc in Iraq aren't doing it for Islam, or if they are they are obviously deranged. There is a fine line between "freedom fighter" and serial killer. I have alot of sympathy for those normal people suffering in Iraq, and unfortunately many Muslims,usually those in the West, don't seem to care what is best for the Iraqi people. They would rather hold on to this comic book perception of what is going on there. The pious noble "freedom fighters" are battling the evil colonial powers of the West. This fallacious reasoning is not helping the women and children being killed by death squads, terrorists, criminals, Ba'athists, and the other macabre mixtures of criminals and serial killers. The U.S. and Brits are playing referee to a wave of pointless destruction, and if it doesn't change very soon all the people capable of forming a stable government will be dead, and all that will be left is terrorists and criminals. That will be your Islamic state, and that is why it is in the best interests of everyone involved that this Iraqi government succeed.

Keltoi said:

That is just the point I'm trying to make. These people doing the car bombing, beheading, torture, etc in Iraq aren't doing it for Islam, or if they are they are obviously deranged. There is a fine line between "freedom fighter" and serial killer. I have alot of sympathy for those normal people suffering in Iraq, and unfortunately many Muslims,usually those in the West, don't seem to care what is best for the Iraqi people. They would rather hold on to this comic book perception of what is going on there. The pious noble "freedom fighters" are battling the evil colonial powers of the West. This fallacious reasoning is not helping the women and children being killed by death squads, terrorists, criminals, Ba'athists, and the other macabre mixtures of criminals and serial killers. The U.S. and Brits are playing referee to a wave of pointless destruction, and if it doesn't change very soon all the people capable of forming a stable government will be dead, and all that will be left is terrorists and criminals. That will be your Islamic state, and that is why it is in the best interests of everyone involved that this Iraqi government succeed.

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i understand you and what you mean i don't know much about islam from what i know islam is very much divided and a small amount of people now about what islam is and when you can fight as some say the holy war so they say they are fighting the holy war which is not true. theses people who are doing this are killers and lost need help

tasmiyah_B said:

^^ that's understandable,

but only so much can you do, about that...

get me sis?

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what do you mean sister:?

Keltoi said:

That is just the point I'm trying to make. These people doing the car bombing, beheading, torture, etc in Iraq aren't doing it for Islam, or if they are they are obviously deranged. There is a fine line between "freedom fighter" and serial killer. I have alot of sympathy for those normal people suffering in Iraq, and unfortunately many Muslims,usually those in the West, don't seem to care what is best for the Iraqi people. They would rather hold on to this comic book perception of what is going on there. The pious noble "freedom fighters" are battling the evil colonial powers of the West. This fallacious reasoning is not helping the women and children being killed by death squads, terrorists, criminals, Ba'athists, and the other macabre mixtures of criminals and serial killers. The U.S. and Brits are playing referee to a wave of pointless destruction, and if it doesn't change very soon all the people capable of forming a stable government will be dead, and all that will be left is terrorists and criminals. That will be your Islamic state, and that is why it is in the best interests of everyone involved that this Iraqi government succeed.

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you still fail to answer the questions...

brother dawud_uk i think you don't understand what he is saying

Dawud_uk said:

you still fail to answer the questions...

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What question? You mean the hypothetical of an invasion of my country? I suppose that would depend on the circumstances..you know..those pesky details. If my country was being destroyed by a ruthless dictator with an interest in mass murder, rape, and torture I would probably be happy that regime was brought to an end. Then I would expect whichever entity removed that dictator to leave when a new government was elected. Then of course you have to consider whether that new government can stand up to the outside terrorists and agents whose intent is to start a civil war. In that case, the entity that removed the dictator would have a responsibility to aid the fledgling government stand up for its responsibilities. After all is said and done, I would begin to wonder if it might not have been better under the dictator. Freedom is a hard thing to create and a harder thing to protect.

Well, Holland was occupied. What the Dutch resistance didn't do was blowing up Dutch or German civilians. The resistance could have crossed quite easily into Germany and attack soft targets there. But we didn't.

But then again. The allies were already bombing these German civilian centres to pieces, so it would have hardly made a difference. :rollseyes

Besides, the comparison is flawed. The struggle in both Iraq and Afghanistan is (and has been for ages) not between foreigners and 'natives'. It has always been between Muslims. The foreign presence was only an addition to an already active underlying conflict. Before the Americans invaded Afghanistan there was already a civil war raging for over a decade. Before Americans invaded Iraq the Kurds already have their defacto state in the north and the Shi'ites where horribly oppressed by a Sunni dominated authoritarian ruler.

Quite frankly I'm not all that concerned about attacks on US troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. I think these attacks are stupid and counter-productive from a political point of view, but it is not morally wrong. For me the issue was never the attacks on the occupiers. The main cause of death and instability is the civil conflict between different social groups. The same could really be said in Afghanistan, the Taliban have very little support among non-Pashtuns. These tribal and religious divisions simply didn't play a role during WW2. While there were token French, Belgians, and Dutch fighting for Germany, they were sent to the Eastern Front and not used fight fellow countrymen. Occupied Western Europe at least was actually quite peaceful, especially in the first few years of the occupation.

Dawud_uk said:

how would you react if your country was invaded? would you fight back? would you support the resistance either verbally, with money and financial help or perhaps even physically join them in their effort?

would such people as terrorists if that happened or someone fighting for the freedom of your people to live their own way of life?

now what if such an invasion force began destroying your schools, closing them down or forcing them to teach a curicullum that promoted their way of life and denegrated your's,.

how would you feel about such occupation schools?
would you think of them as a building and institution worthy of support or destruction?

ask yourself if such invasions occured on and off for a period of hundreds of years, with parts of your land being taken and handed to other nations to run despite the wishes of the people living there.
how would you feel then if you had such a history?

now imagine that one of these lands that was taken from the whole 50 or 100 or 200 years ago rebels against such oppression and fights to rejoin the lands together again? are such people terrorists or is their cause just?

imagine that your country had been invaded and a puppet ruler placed in charge, perhaps like the vichy regime in france during WWII? how would you view such a government? such a ruler?
would you see the ruler as good or a puppet no matter how good or bad his policies were?
would you view those who fought for such a government or worked them as just doing a job or as traitors?

imagine of this happening to your land, how would you feel?
perhaps at the end of this you will understand how we as muslims feel, one of the greatest ways of solving conflicts is looking to see things from the 'other' point of view.

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TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS:
"how would you react if your country was invaded?"
if my country was invaded and my country was Iraq I would be happy just like everyone was when Saddams Regime was toppled.

"would you fight back?"
I would not fight back, since nobody was there to fight me, I would rise and fight against anyone left in Saddams regime.

"would you support the resistance either verbally, with money and financial help or perhaps even physically join them in their effort?"
I would not support any resistance run by known terrorist, AND DEFINITLY NOT A GROUP OF RADICALS WHO KILL OTHER PEOPLE OF THE MUSLIM FAITH INDISCRIMINATELY.

"would such people as terrorists if that happened or someone fighting for the freedom of your people to live their own way of life?"
No one is fighting against your way of life, Muslims and any other religion in Iraq are more than welcome to live their life and religion any way they choose.

"now what if such an invasion force began destroying your schools, closing them down or forcing them to teach a curicullum that promoted their way of life and denegrated your's,. "
The country is underdeveloped in many places and schools are not destroyed they are made better. It isnt promoting a way of life either, maybe just in some cases showing other ways of life but never asking to change theirs

"how would you feel about such occupation schools? "
there is no occupation of schools

would you think of them as a building and institution worthy of support or destruction?
I would be happy to support it

how would you feel then if you had such a history?
History is History I live in the present. The other nations that may or may not have "taken" land were not the US either

"how would you view such a government? such a ruler?
would you see the ruler as good or a puppet no matter how good or bad his policies were?
would you view those who fought for such a government or worked them as just doing a job or as traitors?"
I would just be happy that I wasnt ruled by a torturer and murderer like Saddam Hussein, and as Keltoi said this is no puppet, the Iraqi people voted for it. This government could be a good government if it were given a chance, and definitely better than the previous one. I would not fight this government, if any i would have fought against the previous one. I would view the ones fight for this government as intelligent people who know what is right and wrong. Those people are heros and should be viewed as such.

imagine of this happening to your land, how would you feel?
I would be overjoyed that a merciless ruler was no longer in power and that some sort REAL government was put into place.

"perhaps at the end of this you will understand how we as muslims feel, one of the greatest ways of solving conflicts is looking to see things from the 'other' point of view."
I understand that your views are incredibly distorted, and that you have maybe watched a little bit too much al-qaeda television. The US is not in your country to hurt you, we are there to help you. If all of these crazy extremist had not come out killing innocent people and bringing Iraq to a near state of civil war, the US could have probably already left, and then when the next elections came around and if they didnt like the people in place, they could change it. this may sound crazy since this hasnt been done in over 3 decades, but it is true. There would be human rights and freedoms! Unfortunately this probably will never happen because of people like you and then the US will withdrawl and these people that you say are fighting for a cause will take over and then you will blame the US for all of your problems, just like now. Maybe the US should leave, maybe we should let all of what is going on just continue and see how you would like it. Maybe another dictator would take over and torture these people for no reason, would you like that? Are you into Sado Masochism or something? Look the bottom line is that now at this point in Iraq, the US is trying to help the people that are not doing all of this killing and prevent a bunch of psycho-paths from coming into power. Does all this make sense to you or do you have more questions?

i never understand why poeple kill them selfs for thier country just me part of the army and fight:? :?

Keltoi said:

A terrorist is a terrorist. If you load a car full of explosives and detonate it at a wedding party or a funeral, you are not fighting the evil Americans, you are killing Muslims. Does this chaos make it more difficult for the Iraqi government, who the Iraqi people put in place?, obviously. The whole diatribe in the above post is based on a false premise. I know many Muslims, usually adolescent males living in Western countries, like to believe in some noble grand gathering of god-fearing Muslims fighting to resist the evil colonial West. It is a myth, and not even a good one.

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you aren't answering the questions and even more you have to realize that some of the people along the iraqi resistance aren't doing any of that, they are simply killing soldiers without harming civilians and are still being called terrorists while Americans can kill and rape whole families and it's a completely different story.

how would you react if your country was invaded?

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I find that an odd question. Why would non-Muslims feel differently than Muslims? So I ask you how did you feel when your country, the UK, was attacked?