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sartajc
11-07-2006, 09:10 PM
I was debating on another forum on the existence of God. I said that because of the science in the Qur'an, it must be divine. But he provided me this question:

Show the undeniable proof that it HAD to come from Allah (instead of aliens or the Devil) and that this is proof of God's existence.

How do I prove that the Quran came from Allah and not aliens or the Devil?
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Woodrow
11-07-2006, 09:23 PM
You can't prove it. It is impossible to disprove any statement. But, we can offer compelling evidence as to why we believe it is to be the Word of Allah(swt)
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sartajc
11-07-2006, 09:30 PM
I dont need evidence saying that the Qur'an is divine. I need compelling evidence showing that its from Allah and not from Satan or Aliens or something.
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Umar001
11-07-2006, 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by sartajc
I was debating on another forum on the existence of God. I said that because of the science in the Qur'an, it must be divine. But he provided me this question:

Show the undeniable proof that it HAD to come from Allah (instead of aliens or the Devil) and that this is proof of God's existence.

How do I prove that the Quran came from Allah and not aliens or the Devil?
Wait, at first I thought you were debating an Athiest, but when he is asking, prove it does not come from Satan, now am thinking is this a Christian?
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sartajc
11-07-2006, 09:36 PM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Wait, at first I thought you were debating an Athiest, but when he is asking, prove it does not come from Satan, now am thinking is this a Christian?
No he is aethist. But hes providing an argument for both i guess. and aliens make sense to him apparently.
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Umar001
11-07-2006, 09:38 PM
Originally Posted by sartajc
No he is aethist. But hes providing an argument for both i guess. and aliens make sense to him apparently.
Well say to him, if your an athiest, then surely, there is no point in my proving hat the Quran is from G-d if you dont believe theres a G-d anyhow, maybe we should try to tackle that first, and then see what he says.
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Allah-creation
11-07-2006, 09:41 PM
well, ask them do you think alience or statan can predict the futur. The quran is 100 percent perfect and only god is perfect. Sorry for my english its bad.
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Woodrow
11-07-2006, 09:43 PM
Originally Posted by sartajc
I dont need evidence saying that the Qur'an is divine. I need compelling evidence showing that its from Allah and not from Satan or Aliens or something.
that is the problem with language. We do not have the tools to make any statement that shows something is not. You can not prove that your telephone book was not written by Gutenberg. You you show evidence as to who it was written by, but you can not prove it was not written by Gutengerg.

People that ask questions like that are fully aware of the limitations of our inability to disprove a statement, so they use that to their advantage. The only thing you can do is place the burdan of proof upon them and
ask them if they believe it was written by Satan or Aliens, to present their proof that it was. Burdan of proof is to show a statement is true.

You will often hear comments like that and many people are too ignorant to realize they can not prove their own claim.
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Umar001
11-07-2006, 09:48 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
that is the problem with language. We do not have the tools to make any statement that shows something is not. You can not prove that your telephone book was not written by Gutenberg. You you show evidence as to who it was written by, but you can not prove it was not written by Gutengerg.

People that ask questions like that are fully aware of the limitations of our inability to disprove a statement, so they use that to their advantage. The only thing you can do is place the burdan of proof upon them and
ask them if they believe it was written by Satan or Aliens, to present their proof that it was. Burdan of proof is to show a statement is true.

You will often hear comments like that and many people are too ignorant to realize they can not prove their own claim.
Yea but you can place a reasonable amount of evidence to rule out with logic that the book was authered by satan. right?
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Woodrow
11-07-2006, 10:00 PM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Yea but you can place a reasonable amount of evidence to rule out with logic that the book was authered by satan. right?
Yes, you can. Provided the listener is receptive of the evidence.

I doubt very much that the person asking the question would accept any evidence that the Qur'an is Divine so he/she posed the impossible question, to prove it was not written by Satan or Aliens. No matter what is shown as evidence of the Divinity the person will simply answer that is just proof as to how deceptive aliens and Satan are, they can make it appear to be Divine.

A doubter will be a doubter, until they allow their eyes to open. We can not make a blind man see by using brighter light bulbs.
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Muhammad
11-08-2006, 12:48 AM
:sl:

But the claim does not make sense. Why would the devil write a book in which he himself is portrayed as an evil being, doomed for eternity, telling everyone to take him as an enemy, and moreover commanding people to do good and be righteous people? The devil being the devil, would not do a thing like that.

But I agree with brother Woodrow above - this person does not seem likely to accept any kind of evidence.
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Skillganon
11-08-2006, 01:33 AM
Originally Posted by Muhammad
:sl:

But the claim does not make sense. Why would the devil write a book in which he himself is portrayed as an evil being, doomed for eternity, telling everyone to take him as an enemy, and moreover commanding people to do good and be righteous people? The devil being the devil, would not do a thing like that.
because he(devil) want's to be famouse. He being the devil doesn't care wheter he is seen as good or evil. :?
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Woodrow
11-08-2006, 01:51 AM
Originally Posted by Muhammad
:sl:

But the claim does not make sense. Why would the devil write a book in which he himself is portrayed as an evil being, doomed for eternity, telling everyone to take him as an enemy, and moreover commanding people to do good and be righteous people? The devil being the devil, would not do a thing like that.

But I agree with brother Woodrow above - this person does not seem likely to accept any kind of evidence.
But the claim does not make sense.
Which is why it will not be possible to present any proof the the person making the statement would accept as proof of falseness. the person already has his mind made up and since the statement is illogical, the person will attribute equaly illogical attributes to Satan and Aliens.

It is an old debating strategy to shift the burdan of proof so that it can not be addressed. No matter what is said some standard stock answers would be like:

That is true for this moment, but we do not know all of the conditions that have happened and will happen. Satan could have been totaly different at the time the Qur'an was written.

We do not know all of the Super powers an Alien could possess. The Alien might have these powers at certain times. We can not see them because they have the intelligence to remain hidden.

the only counter measure is to shift the burdan of proof back to the person and ask them to offer proof that the Qur'an was written by Satan or Aliens. Their replies can then be refuted or shown to be illogical.
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sartajc
11-08-2006, 04:29 AM
Here is the debate if you want to look into his arguments:

http://vpraise.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1317
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Woodrow
11-08-2006, 05:15 AM
Quite interesting. I would say you have been doing a very good job. The poster skepticguy is not a skeptic. He believes he is correct and is not open to other possibilities. He has his mind made up and there is no amount of proof that will change his views. Any change that he sees will have to be from his own willingness to be receptive to the existance of Allah(swt), which he is not at this time. I would waste few words with him and direct the conversation more to the other posters.
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Skillganon
11-08-2006, 05:36 AM
I agree with Woodrow, their are alway's some who will not believe, and some with any amount of proof (the whole creation) still will not believe.

One should take a lesson from the past. People of the past dsbelieved when prophet came to them who had more convincing proof i.e. eloquence of speech, Miracles and still did not believe.

I suggest when they do start believing in the creator they will come searching, and that is when you should be their to greet them.
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Umar001
11-08-2006, 05:45 PM
I've just seen the board, here's how I would reply, well roughly:

To Oi_Ve, Hope all is well, to proceed:

Gregor Mendel was a monk who worked with pea plants. Through his various breeding experiments, Mendel, a monk who knew almost nothing of biology, would later craft the founding principles of genetics.
So, by your logic, Mendel was given this information by divine intervention.
Let me quote someone if you allow me, he is:

Dr. Joe Leigh Simpson is the Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology, and Professor of Molecular and Human Genetics at the Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas, USA. Formerly, he was Professor of Ob-Gyn and the Chairman of the Department of Ob-Gyn at the University of Tennessee, Memphis, Tennessee, USA. He was also the President of the American Fertility Society. He has received many awards, including the Association of Professors of Obstetrics and Gynecology Public Recognition Award in 1992.

He states "Again, the point has been made, I think, repeatedly by other speakers this morning: these hadeeths could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available [at] the time of their writing . ."


This is the test, no point in telling me about Mendel if his knowledge could be derived through experiments in his own life time!

What exactly did Mendel prove, and how did he come to his conclusion? Was it based on experiments and estimation of his own doing? Please provide more information.

In addition, it does not follow that just because the Koran gets somethings right that it gets ALL things right. Just because you get some stuff right doesn't mean you get it all right.
Every passage in the Qu'ranic text that can be proved right or wrong by science has been proved right, some passages are yet not able to be proved right or wrong due to the lack of technology.

Also, I suggest highly that you DON'T try and validify the Koran with science, because the second science proves one in the book wrong, your religous scripture automatically loses its validity.

If you cannot play by all the rules science, then don't play science.
The Qu'ran actually clearly challenges anyone to find ONE thing wrong within it's scripture, (SOMEONE ADD THE AYAH TAHT SAYS ABOUT FINDING ONE CONTRADICTION PLEASE).

Expanding is a poor term here: it does nnot refer to the physical expansion of the universe, but the metphorical expansion: the enriching of it.
Am wondering, where did you study arabic? You know arabic right? Even if you do, please show us how you derive that the word expanding refers to enriching?

Besides, the Bible already has a passage such as this, therefore if there is any credit to be given to any religious scripture, it's the Bible, not the Koran.
Please show us the verse, also even if the Bible does have a similar verse, it does not mean much, since the Bible has scientific errors, which would rule out it being 100% G-d's word.

According the Koran we also come from earth (11:61), clay (15:26), mud (23:12), dust (30:20), water (25:54), and nothing (19:67).
I will quote the introduction to an article written by A Brother of mine Ansar Al-Ald, if you truly wish to understand Islaam, then please read it here

The allegation is as follows:

What was man created from? A blood clot [96:1-2], water [21:30, 24:45, 25:54], "sounding" (i.e. burned) clay [15:26], dust [3:59, 30:20, 35:11], nothing [19:67] and this is then denied in 52:35, earth [11:61], a drop of thickened fluid [16:4, 75:37]

The obvious explanation to this question is that these references describe different aspects or stages in man's creation. This has always been the understanding of such verses.
Sura 86:6- According to it, semen is produced between the ribs and the loins, which is inaccurate.
I have seen an answer to this at understandingislam.com or something like that and I think theres an answer at this site too, look through the refutation places.

In addition, the description of human creation is almost identical to the description given by Greek physician Galen in 150 AD. Both make the EXACT same mistakes.
Actually, you have shown no mistakes in the Qu'ran, what you have brought forward as sensless and fraud accusations which have been debunked by numerous people. [you could mention the mistakes that Galen and others made and that the quran does not make, but that requires you fiding quotes and sources]

Hi, Skeptickguy, with regards to:

If the Quran is an amazingly scientificlly accurate book and it was made 1400 years ago, the only logical explanation for how a nomad would know so much info is through alien intervention. So if the entire Quran is extraterrestrial and unchanged, that means all of it is alien. So that means when it says that there is one God it is an alien snow job.
Actually, if you take the word alien, to mean " a creature from outer space; extraterrestrial." then yes, without using the word creature which seems disrespectful, the Qu'ran came from knowledge of G-d, which is not a being that lives here with us, nor are the angels.

If the Quran is an amazingly scientificlly accurate book and it was made 1400 years ago, the only logical explanation for how a nomad would know so much info is through demonic intervention. So if the entire Quran is demonic and unchanged, that means all of it is a deception. So that means when it says that there is one God it is a lie.
I do not know, what amount of logic you are using but it is rather Illogical for Satan to paint himself in a low level, of saying he is accursed, and weak, and potraying that he, satan, actually prayed to G-d, rather Illogical for Satan to admit that. [QURAN quotation about when Satan asked G-d for respite till judgement day]

The aliens may have been studying the earth for years before they planted the Koran. They knew the direction mankind was taking and so they "inspired" clues in the text about discoveries we'd soon make as a species. They knew we'd make these discoveries sooner or later because all intelligent speicies in the universe that these aliens had studied (they just happened to be the oldest known living race of intelligent beings in the known quadrant) also had eventually stumbled upon them.

They didn't want to inspire a king because they knew the reaction folks like you would have to an 'illiterate' bedouin from which these revelations came. The impact would be that much greater. And one of the things they were studying (because they hadn't stumbled upon it in any of their previous journeys to other civilizations) is the impact of religious belief on human beings. Could they successfully imbed this knowledge in a book from an illiterate tent-dweller and launch a new world religion? I'd say their experiment succeeded beyond their wildest expectations.
You see, there is some logic needed, for example you claim it was aliens, if we forget the fact that under aliens would come angels and G-d, since they are not beings from this world. So lets leave those, explain to me what these aliens are like? break it down to me? Otherwise, if you don't then your logic only points that these aliens, are actually angels who promugate the word of G-d, which is what is logical sense this is what the Qu'ran talks about.

Also he quoted you saying, 'Also religion takes logic and some faith' you should try and be careful with your words. Religion in general does not take logic, only the right religion does, if someone is looking to find a religion and uses logic then alot of them wont make sense to the person, but Islam always will! :)

Anyhow, this is just a personal thing, seems like yall having an intersting discussion.

May Allah forgive me for any wrong I've said or type, All praise is due to Allah!
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glo
11-09-2006, 07:26 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Quite interesting. I would say you have been doing a very good job. The poster skepticguy is not a skeptic. He believes he is correct and is not open to other possibilities. He has his mind made up and there is no amount of proof that will change his views. Any change that he sees will have to be from his own willingness to be receptive to the existance of Allah(swt), which he is not at this time. I would waste few words with him and direct the conversation more to the other posters.
Some people need a direct nudge from God himself to change their hearts and attitudes ... :)
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sartajc
11-10-2006, 01:43 AM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
I agree with Woodrow, their are alway's some who will not believe, and some with any amount of proof (the whole creation) still will not believe.

One should take a lesson from the past. People of the past dsbelieved when prophet came to them who had more convincing proof i.e. eloquence of speech, Miracles and still did not believe.

I suggest when they do start believing in the creator they will come searching, and that is when you should be their to greet them.
yeah i just figured that out. im gonna ask him a few questions and see his reply. personally i dont think hell be able to answer them. lets wait and see..
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
11-10-2006, 01:53 AM
LOL wow those people are just ignorant...GG. You did well bro :)
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Muhammad
11-10-2006, 03:12 PM
:sl:

I think a very common mistake that people make in these kinds of discussions is focusing on the scientific aspect of the Qur'an to such an extent that meanings of verses are distorted and added in where they should not be - for example, using a verse speaking about altering Allaah's creation (verse 4:119 (not 4:120 as was stated)) to refer to 'genetic engineering' - more precisely, it was said that "the holy Quran has prophesied the plastic surgery, genetic engineering and cloning in this short and concise sentence". While it could be one of the meanings of the verse, it is not the obvious meaning, especially when we look at the context of the verse:

Allâh cursed him. And he [Shaitân (Satan)] said: "I will take an appointed portion of your slaves;
Verily, I will mislead them, and surely, I will arouse in them false desires; and certainly, I will order them to slit the ears of cattle, and indeed I will order them to change the nature created by Allâh." And whoever takes Shaitân (Satan) as a Walî (protector or helper) instead of Allâh, has surely suffered a manifest loss.
He [Shaitan (Satan)] makes promises to them, and arouses in them false desires; and Shaitan's (Satan) promises are nothing but deceptions. [Qur'an, 4:118-120]


And if we look at what Ibn Katheer says about this verse:
(And indeed I will order them to change the nature created by Allah.) means tattooing, according to Al-Hasan bin Abi Al-Hasan Al-Basri. In his Sahih, Muslim recorded the prohibition of tattooing the face, which in one of its wordings states: "May Allah curse whoever does this.''
So this is an example of how scientific facts/prophecies are often read in where they do not exist, and while they are features of the miraculous nature of the Qur'an, they need to be put in their proper place and a proper methodology must be followed to extract such examples. It does more harm than good when certain verses are 'bent over backwards' to seek to prove that they contain certain scientific facts/prophecies.

When such facts are clear and explicit from the verse, they should be mentioned, but when they go against the intent and meaning of the verse, they should be abandoned.

:w:
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Umar001
11-10-2006, 03:29 PM
I agree, I think it is a yasir Qadhi lecture, refuting attacks against the Quran?, maybe anyhow other pieces of bringing people to islam is good:

* Ease of Memorisation like no other Book
* Make a Surah Like it challenge, i.e. Miraculous nature in its language
*The discription of G-d, I.e. if you mention the 99 hardly anyone will disagree with them, unlike G-d being described as 'resting' or any other such thing in other religions whilst the Qu'ran says Slumber does not over take him.

And so on.
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Iwant2no2
12-11-2006, 08:33 PM
How can anyone in the world really claim any book or writings came from God? The Bible or the Quran, or any other book, how is it truly proven?

Take care... :peace:
Reply

Umar001
12-11-2006, 09:02 PM
Originally Posted by Iwant2no2
How can anyone in the world really claim any book or writings came from God? The Bible or the Quran, or any other book, how is it truly proven?

Take care... :peace:
Well it would depend on what type of proof the person is asking for.
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Iwant2no2
12-11-2006, 10:39 PM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
Well it would depend on what type of proof the person is asking for.
What type of proof do you have?

This was my question: and I am the one who is asking!!
How can anyone in the world really claim any book or writings came from God? The Bible or the Quran, or any other book, how is it truly proven?

Just wondering!! :?

Take care... :peace:
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
12-11-2006, 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by Iwant2no2
What type of proof do you have?

This was my question: and I am the one who is asking!!
How can anyone in the world really claim any book or writings came from God? The Bible or the Quran, or any other book, how is it truly proven?

Just wondering!! :?

Take care... :peace:
Hi,
Please refer to the following threads:
http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...-religion.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/176538-post11.html
Reply

Zone Maker
12-12-2006, 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by Iwant2no2
What type of proof do you have?

This was my question: and I am the one who is asking!!
How can anyone in the world really claim any book or writings came from God? The Bible or the Quran, or any other book, how is it truly proven?

Just wondering!! :?

Take care... :peace:
:sl:

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...challenge.html

:w:
Reply

Link
12-21-2006, 03:31 PM
I have been thinking about this also.

The argument of the verse seems to be, "no one among mankind can write like the Quran, so it must be from God"

But what if someone makes the argument, yes it's beyond the reach of man, and miracolous super intelligent Alien good have wrote it.

My response to myself when I pondered about this myself is this. The frist possibility is the argument was never a conclusive argument saying that, rather it was addressing people who thought Mohammad (pbuh) fabricated. Since Mohammad (pbuh) was human, and no human can write such a book, and it remains like that to now, it's proof Mohammad (pbuh) didn't write the book.

My 2nd respone, it may not have to with the stuctural beauty of Quran, but rather it's light, and it's light is something beyond sequitor logic (something for the opposite of neo in the matrix can't go beyond), and a person of the light would not be able to fabricate a book saying it's from God because he is good (ie. from the light) while people from the darkness don't comprehend the light and the wisdom, so cannot write such a book. Infact, I found some hadiths that can be interpeted to be saying that what the verse means is, what they can't bring is the light of God. This is what it means. They can't bring a surah like that of Allah's word and light. However it is known everything Mohammad (pbuh) said was light. Like wise, the Prophets (as) speak from revelation, and their words were light.


ws
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New_Muslim
12-22-2006, 12:15 AM
Just a simple read of the Qur'an such it is divinely inspired from Allah stw
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rav
12-22-2006, 11:51 AM
or you can realise that your alive, and if you look at the science of it, your creation is a scientific miracle in itself.
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lolwatever
12-22-2006, 11:57 AM
:sl:
also.. from what science's latest developments tell us... the universe literally came into existance from nothing (literally nothing)... and was a totally unpredictable event.

and that exactly fits the definition of Allah, he creates at free will and creates being from non being.

besides that.... all the extra evidences in the quran that point to his existance SWT.


all the best with it!
salams :)

ps: this might b of use as well as some of the posts related to it
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post568494
the thread is kinda just too long i guess.
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Woodrow
12-22-2006, 12:26 PM
I'm puzzled. Why can some people believe in the first law of physics.

Matter can be neither destroyed nor created.

Then they see no conflict in the idea that all matter had an original starting point. It seems to me that if matter had not been created, it would have always existed without a starting point. Yet, the age of the universe is measurable back to a common origin.

If there is some loophole in the law and matter can suddenly pop out of no where. Why isn't there new matter popping up all over the place like popcorn?
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lolwatever
12-22-2006, 12:29 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I'm puzzled. Why can some people believe in the first law of physics.

Matter can be neither destroyed nor created.

Then they see no conflict in the idea that all matter had an original starting point. It seems to me that if matter had not been created, it would have always existed without a starting point. Yet, the age of the universe is measurable back to a common origin.

If there is some loophole in the law and matter can suddenly pop out of no where. Why isn't there new matter popping up all over the place like popcorn?
:sl:
lol well evidecne is pointing more and more to teh fact that the universe did come out of nothing.

What's crazier is how people could believe that and claim that it was created out of nothing due to some sort of inevitability given enough time :uuh: . Which is just wrong. lol

:w:
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Woodrow
12-22-2006, 01:09 PM
Originally Posted by lolwatever
:sl:
lol well evidecne is pointing more and more to teh fact that the universe did come out of nothing.
What's crazier is how people could believe that and claim that it was created out of nothing due to some sort of inevitability given enough time :uuh: . Which is just wrong. lol

:w:
I agree with that completly.

What I can't understand is how some people can believe it happened without a cause. If it can happen without a cause it seems like it should be a fairly common occurance. Since they place nothing as the origin, there would have been a very ample supply of that without the existance of God(swt).
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