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GARY
11-12-2006, 11:06 PM
Hamas accepts proposal for peace talks with Israel: Arab officials

The Hamas-led Palestinian government agreed Sunday to take part in a proposed international peace conference with Israel, Arab League officials said, despite Hamas' repeated calls for the Jewish state's destruction.

Foreign Minister Mahmoud Zahar of Hamas endorsed a statement by Arab foreign ministers on Sunday during a meeting in Cairo, which called for the peace conference, diplomats said following the meeting.

The diplomats spoke to the Associated Press on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to the media.

The endorsement was the first time Hamas, which has refused to recognize Israel and renounce violence against the Jewish state, has indicated it would consider making amends with Israeli officials.

"The ministers call to convene a peace conference attended by Arab parties, Israel and the permanent members of the UN Security Council in order to reach a just and comprehensive settlement to the Arab-Israeli conflict on all tracks according to international resolutions and the principle of 'land for peace,'" the Arab League statement said.

Conference 'doesn't make Hamas legitimate': Israel

Arabs want Hamas to endorse a 2002 Arab initiative that trades peace with Israel with land gained by the Jewish state in the 1967 Middle East war.

Mark Regev, a spokesman for Israel's foreign ministry, said he was not aware of the conference proposal, but said Hamas could not be a party to talks with Israel unless it met the international community's stipulations that it recognize Israel, renounce violence and abide by existing Israeli-Palestinian agreements.

"A multilateral conference doesn't make Hamas legitimate," Regev said. "What makes Hamas legitimate is accepting the international benchmarks."

Sunday was the first time Zahar had attended an Arab foreign ministers' meeting since Hamas became the ruling Palestinian party earlier this year.

The Arab League had previously refused to let him join his counterparts unless Hamas accepted the peace initiative.

Aid restored in response to U.S. veto

Arab ministers also decided on Sunday to end a financial blockade on the Palestinians in response to a U.S. veto to a UN Security Council draft resolution condemning Israel's deadly military offensive in the Gaza Strip.

On Saturday, the U.S. vetoed the Security Council draft resolution that condemned the Israeli military offensive that has killed more 50 people recently and demanded that Israeli troops pull out of the territory.

In an effort to pressure Hamas to moderate its violent anti-Israel ideology, hundreds of millions of dollars in international aid and tax revenues was cut off to the Palestinians after the militant group took power in March.

It has sparked clashes between Hamas and its rival Fatah movement, as well as violent protests by Palestinian police over the government's inability to pay their salaries.

source: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2006/1...as-israel.html
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Keltoi
11-13-2006, 03:04 AM
Interesting, but I agree with the Israeli official, simply joining some conference isn't going to change the overall ideology of Hamas. The best thing for the Palestinians would be to vote Hamas out and create a more stable and political establishment rather than a militant one.
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GARY
11-13-2006, 03:27 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Interesting, but I agree with the Israeli official, simply joining some conference isn't going to change the overall ideology of Hamas. The best thing for the Palestinians would be to vote Hamas out and create a more stable and political establishment rather than a militant one.
Exactly. Wouldn't it be better to vote a party in that has building a better country as it's top priority?
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Eric H
11-13-2006, 06:34 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Gary;

On Saturday, the U.S. vetoed the Security Council draft resolution that condemned the Israeli military offensive that has killed more 50 people recently and demanded that Israeli troops pull out of the territory.
If soldiers wear a uniform and use tanks they represent their country, and their actions should be just and fair. It worries me that the action of the Israeli soldiers do not seem to be just and fair. It worries me further that the Israeli government do not seem to have a conscience about using excessive force.

America seems to condone this action by their veto, and they seem to have no conscience when it comes to the lives and deaths of the Palestinian people.

I do not understand what the difference is between Israeli soldiers killing Palestinian civilians; and Palestinian ‘terrorists’ killing Israeli civilians.

Neither seems just or fair.

In the spirit of seeking Justice and peace

Eric
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GARY
11-13-2006, 07:12 AM
There is no difference in the actual killings, in either case civilians die.

Not that I have any way to know for myself, so take it with a grain of salt, but it would 'seem' as if the Israeli military does not target civilians purposely.

Perhaps they are reckless when targeting militants, and there can be two ways of looking at that.
On one hand we can say that that careless recklessness is just as bad as if they had targeted the civilians, instead of them being collateral damage. They should ensure that they hit only militants.
On the other hand one might ask, "what else would you have them do?" In other words, they are under constant threat of attack by organized groups of militants determined to end their existence by whatever means of attack on their civilians possible. They must strike the militants when and where they can. The close proximity of militants and civilians make it extremely difficult to avoid collateral damage.
I am not saying any of this is right, I don't know. And neither do you. I have read many of your posts Eric, and I will say this; it is good that you are making such an effort to understand the plight of the palestinians, and look at things from their perspective. But I think you have done this with such enthusiasm, that you have forgotten that there are other victims in this.
There are alot of men running around with guns and bombs and tanks. Palestinians kids get killed. Israeli kids get killed.

Some argue that the Israeli military targets civilians on purpose. I don't say it is not possible, but when there is as much fighting going on as there is, it is just as easy to believe that mistakes will happen. In fact it is inevitable that occasionally there will be civilians hurt or killed.
What we do know, is that palestinian militant groups do target civilians. There is no denying that.
So, I believe you may have directed your post at me at least in part because of my comment;
Exactly. Wouldn't it be better to vote a party in that has building a better country as it's top priority?
This is to say, if the palestinian government was focussed on building the country and not destroying Israel, there would be two positive results: 1) The country would begin to be built into a better place to live with jobs and prosperity. 2) Even if Israel was still looking for a fight, they would have no excuses for attacking palestinians. Right now they have all kinds of excuses.
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Muslim Knight
11-13-2006, 07:46 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Interesting, but I agree with the Israeli official, simply joining some conference isn't going to change the overall ideology of Hamas. The best thing for the Palestinians would be to vote Hamas out and create a more stable and political establishment rather than a militant one.
Correction; it would better for Palestinians to vote out Hamas and create political establishment which conforms to Israeli policies.

Hamas tried to provide a stable environment and what the rest of the world do? You cut off aid and generally make Palestinian populace life more miserable.
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Curious girl2
11-13-2006, 10:13 AM
Let's hope some good comes of it.

Peace
CG
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Eric H
11-13-2006, 11:08 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Gary;

Maybe we can agree that there is much wrong being done by both the Palestinians and Israelis. All these wrongs just fuel further conflict.

I have to agree with you that man cannot really know the solution.

In a way mankind has this need to try and put things right by adding to conflict. In a way conflict seems to deny our faith that God will put all things right in a greater life after death.

Why would God need people to kill each other?

If we are to kill someone for an alleged injustice how can we be sure that God would agree with our decision?

God is eternal and has all the time he needs, at some point we will all have to stand before God. It does not seem to make any sense that God should need us to kill each other.

It almost seems that we are taking on God’s role to become judge, jury and executioner, even though we lack all the knowledge of God.

It almost seems that we are to retaliate but without violence, maybe people like Ghandi are a role model.

In the spirit of seeking peace with justice

Eric
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S_87
11-13-2006, 11:22 AM
:sl:

'peace' talks. theyve been there done that :rolleyes:
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AbdulHassanAmir
11-13-2006, 04:17 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
Correction; it would better for Palestinians to vote out Hamas and create political establishment which conforms to Israeli policies.

Hamas tried to provide a stable environment and what the rest of the world do? You cut off aid and generally make Palestinian populace life more miserable.
Agreed.
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GARY
11-13-2006, 04:33 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
Correction; it would better for Palestinians to vote out Hamas and create political establishment which conforms to Israeli policies.

Hamas tried to provide a stable environment and what the rest of the world do? You cut off aid and generally make Palestinian populace life more miserable.
The key policies that needed to be conformed to were Israels right to exist and to agree to stop the violence. That would seem to be a basic expectation. How can you negotiate with someone that doesn't acknowledge you exist and continues to attack?
To negotiate both sides would need to stop attacks during negotiations.
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AbdulHassanAmir
11-13-2006, 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by GARY
The key policies that needed to be conformed to were Israels right to exist and to agree to stop the violence. That would seem to be a basic expectation. How can you negotiate with someone that doesn't acknowledge you exist and continues to attack?
To negotiate both sides would need to stop attacks during negotiations.
You can negoiate by not killing innocent civilians from towers and tank raids, for one, and this is from times of peace supposedly.
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Woodrow
11-13-2006, 05:49 PM
Peace is the cure for Peace Talks.

May we all pray that one day the world will live in Peace and there will never again be any need for Peace Talks. Let us hope that one day if Peace Talks, we will listen.

Until then, Peace Talks are just Talks with a nice adjective.
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LUVAR
11-13-2006, 06:28 PM
hmmm interesting:hiding:
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Keltoi
11-13-2006, 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by AbdulHassanAmir
You can negoiate by not killing innocent civilians from towers and tank raids, for one, and this is from times of peace supposedly.
You negotiate when both sides stop killing, not just one. Hamas has been firing rockets from the Gaza Strip almost constantly since Israel abandoned those settlements.
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Muslim Knight
11-14-2006, 01:31 AM
Originally Posted by GARY
How can you negotiate with someone that doesn't acknowledge you exist and continues to attack?
To negotiate both sides would need to stop attacks during negotiations.
How negotiate with someone who doesn't recognize you have been living on that land for a long time, took your land forcefully and then says something like, "Land without people for a people without land."? Before 1940s there was no Israel!!
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GARY
11-14-2006, 03:59 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
How negotiate with someone who doesn't recognize you have been living on that land for a long time, took your land forcefully and then says something like, "Land without people for a people without land."? Before 1940s there was no Israel!!
Of course there was Israel. Israel is thousands of years old.
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جوري
11-14-2006, 04:07 AM
G-D I hate this forum........ here is a little history on "Israel"... written by a christian by the way who works for the united nations.. he is a diplomat and a historian
http://www.users.cloud9.net/~recross/israel-watch/
will give you a good back ground on exactly how old Israel is... and again for the umpteenth time "Israel" was Jacob (PBUH) not this colonial settler apartheid imposter state that slapped the label of Israel upon its unholy chest.....
peace....
I really came here by mistake and always see something I immensely dislike... and don't want to be suckered into it......
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GARY
11-14-2006, 04:22 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
G-D I hate this forum........ here is a little history on "Israel"... written by a christian by the way who works for the united nations.. he is a diplomat and a historian
http://www.users.cloud9.net/~recross/israel-watch/
will give you a good back ground on exactly how old Israel is... and again for the umpteenth time "Israel" was Jacob (PBUH) not this colonial settler apartheid imposter state that slapped the label of Israel upon its unholy chest.....
peace....
I really came here by mistake and always see something I immensely dislike... and don't want to be suckered into it......
Oh boy..... Not this tired old argument again. For the umpteenth time I can post my sources as well, so that you can say that my sources suck because of ....blah blah.... and then I can say that your sources suck because blah blah..... and 19 posts later and a fair helping of hurt feelings (not mine I assure you), a mod will finally close the thread and say that we are off topic, and that this has already been discussed at length in another thread, which it has. A number of threads actually.
(if you hate this forum, then why continue coming back?)
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جوري
11-14-2006, 05:17 AM
Originally Posted by GARY
Oh boy..... Not this tired old argument again. For the umpteenth time I can post my sources as well, so that you can say that my sources suck because of ....blah blah.... and then I can say that your sources suck because blah blah..... and 19 posts later and a fair helping of hurt feelings (not mine I assure you), a mod will finally close the thread and say that we are off topic, and that this has already been discussed at length in another thread, which it has. A number of threads actually.
(if you hate this forum, then why continue coming back?)
I don't see anything tired about the arguments actually..... I think they are refreshingly honest for a change..... History is history ... there is nothing political about it...... if people would stop getting their facts a la mode of holywood!


No, my feelings aren't hurt by a blogger ... I don't even get the same adrenaline rush out of it I used; let's say when I was in my teens?..... it does manage to stifle a yawn out of me...... =)


I don't see a "continue" on my behalf, does anyone else? ....To answer your Q... I was passing a repute to someone which led me here ... hate to rain on your parade? seems you were doing a good job "convincing" people that Israel has been around for aggggggges with your own credible sources?? Or do you just post to alleviate some altruistic concern? which would really make you too good to be true! BTW, that is a rhetorical question that you don't actually have to answer..... unless you enjoy the 19 post run...
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GARY
11-14-2006, 08:49 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I don't see anything tired about the arguments actually..... I think they are refreshingly honest for a change..... History is history ... there is nothing political about it...... if people would stop getting their facts a la mode of holywood!


No, my feelings aren't hurt by a blogger ... I don't even get the same adrenaline rush out of it I used; let's say when I was in my teens?..... it does manage to stifle a yawn out of me...... =)


I don't see a "continue" on my behalf, does anyone else? ....To answer your Q... I was passing a repute to someone which led me here ... hate to rain on your parade? seems you were doing a good job "convincing" people that Israel has been around for aggggggges with your own credible sources?? Or do you just post to alleviate some altruistic concern? which would really make you too good to be true! BTW, that is a rhetorical question that you don't actually have to answer..... unless you enjoy the 19 post run...
As appealling as the thought of arguing pointlessly about an obvious fact (Israel has been around for thousands of years) for 19 more posts, I must digress.

...... if people would stop getting their facts a la mode of holywood!
I imagine you believe I am being a smartaleck here. But honestly, as a real point of discussion, this comment from you got me thinking. I tried hard to think of any hollywood productions that were about, or included in the story, the history and creation of the (ahem, ancient) nation of Israel. I honestly cannot think of any. I do have somewhat of an interest in history, and usually like to see movies (even if fictional) that are about history. If you know of any that are about the history of Israel please post the name, I would like to see such a movie.

... hate to rain on your parade?
I was at a parade on Saturday, the rain held off long enough to allow the parade to finish. If it wasn't for such a solemn ceremony, it would have been a nice event.

Or do you just post to alleviate some altruistic concern? which would really make you too good to be true!
I must work on my vocabulary, it pains me to admit that I had to look up the word 'altruistic'. And no, I am not that noble(I am pretty fantastic in other ways though). I post just for the sake of discussion, to inspire others to respond, for my own benefit. When you respond, I learn. Perhaps not what the responder intended or hoped I would learn, but I learn. It is always good if both parties benefit from the exchange, but not crucial.



One thing, you said that there is nothing political about history. I will have to respectfully disagree with that idea. True, history as it happened is nonpolitical, whatever happened, happened. But history as we know it, is very political. Historians, no matter how impartial they may have been, which I have serious doubts about to begin with, would have had a very difficult time recording what had happened without giving an account of what they saw, or what was reported to them. Which of course, would always be a very narrow view.
History as recorded by one side, often will differ greatly from what was recorded by the other.
Also, many historians worked under a certain amount of duress from their political leaders. You can imagine they would have had to put a bit of a spin on their words, rather than record, "today, our army unjustly attacked a poor fishing village, and the fishermen whipped our butts". It was probably beneficial to record what your political leaders approved of.
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IbnAbdulHakim
11-14-2006, 11:19 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Let us hope that one day if Peace Talks, we will listen.

you are one wise uncle :eek:

mashaAllah :)


israelli's/arab officials they all seem so corrupt.
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Eric H
11-15-2006, 03:16 AM
greetings and peace be with you Keltoi;
You negotiate when both sides stop killing, not just one.
If Israel was to look for a solution God's way, what should they do?

If Palestine was to look for a solution God's way, what should they do?

Where does the question of God fit in with this conflict?

In the spirit of seeking peace with Justice.

Eric
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Keltoi
11-15-2006, 03:49 AM
Originally Posted by Eric H
greetings and peace be with you Keltoi;

If Israel was to look for a solution God's way, what should they do?

If Palestine was to look for a solution God's way, what should they do?

Where does the question of God fit in with this conflict?

In the spirit of seeking peace with Justice.

Eric
That is the problem. Neither side is willing to take the appropriate steps towards peace. When one step is taken something occurs and the chance for peace takes two steps back. This has become a generational cycle.
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