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Chechnya
11-13-2006, 04:13 PM
Propaganda is a powerful tool and a tool that Russia likes to employ often. This tool has been well used in the Chechen conflict and especially well used again one man in particular - Shamil Basayev.



Terrorist, bandit, ******st, criminal - Russia has many words for those who oppose its imperial ambitions. However as meaningless as these words are when coming from professional liars, there are many who fall for them - mainly due to their own ignorance and preconceived prejudices and beliefs.



If one looks at Shamil Basayev's life, it is a far cry from the inane uttering of the Russian media.



In 1994 Commander Shamil commanded his battalion in the valiant defence of Grozny. Through the leadership of Aslan Maskhadov and Shamil Basayev the Mujahideen were able to kill over 2000 Russian soldiers as they defended Grozny.



Following the withdrawal from Grozny Commander Shamil continued to lead the Mujahideen in battles against Russian forces across Chechnya. His most famous operation came in 1995 in the quiet town of Buddenyvosk. Having seen their people being massacred, being raped and tortured - Shamil led a desperate band of men into Russia in a suicidal bid to stop the killing.



Buddenyvosk turned out to be a major incident in the war. In fact many journalists who covered the war (like Calotta Gall) called Buddenyvosk the "turning point in the war". Buddenyvosk forced Russians to withdraw from many Chechen towns and villages and to try negotiations for a certain period of time.



The Chechen Mujahideen used this time to re-infiltrate villages that were once evacuated, to build up their forces and stockpile weapons. They organised themselves under the central command of General Aslan Maskhadov and when the hostilities resumed the Mujahideen had used the time - that Shamil had bought them through his Buddenyvosk operation - to devastating effect.



In August 1996 the Mujahideen showed their military skill and ability once more in one of the most shocking operations of recent military history.



Over 1500 Mujahideen led by Commander Shamil attacked Grozny from three sides. Within days they had overrun much of the city, destroying Russian checkpoints, surrounding Russian barracks and forcing the Russians from out of the city.



It was the decisive operation of the first war. The Russian army were defeated and forced to withdraw.



Unable to defeat the Chechen Mujahideen and Commander Shamil militarily, the Russians started the propaganda campaign - a campaign that much of the western world has accepted.

However in the Caucaus and Islamic worlds such propaganda campaigns have no effect. Most people recognise that when the whole world turned away from the Chechen people - leaving them to be massacred, raped and tortured - men like Shamil Basayev stood up to stop the tyranny.



To the west and Russia he may always be "Terrorist no.1" but to the Islamic peoples he will go down in history as the Commander who defeated the might of the Russian army and stopped the war. He will be remembered as someone who never backed down and fought and died like a warrior.
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Keltoi
11-13-2006, 07:38 PM
I've never equated the Chechen conflict with the issue of terrorism, or at least I didn't before the Beslan incident. Beslan aside, I think those who even know what Chechnya is understand that the Chechens suffered brutally under the Russians. I don't know much about this guy, so I'm not going to join in the hero worship, but there is alot of sympathy out there for the Chechen cause. This is one of the sticking points that popped up between President Bush and President Putin. Putin wanted Bush to publicly equate the Chechen conflict with the phenomenon of international terrorism, and Bush didn't do so. At least not until the Beslan massacre.
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Chechnya
11-13-2006, 07:53 PM
Salam Keltoi

Its not hero-worship, its just recognising what he has done.

Beslan was a mistake - even though they didnt expect any children to die it was still a very bad move. He did regret the deaths of the children and offered to either go on trial when the war was over or hand himself over immediately to the Russians if they stopped the war.
Also after Beslan he changed his tactics and went back to military methods after being convinced by the Chechen president.
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Keltoi
11-13-2006, 09:12 PM
I should probably look it up myself, but you seem to know alot about the Chechen conflict. What is the situation at the present time?
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Chechnya
11-13-2006, 11:13 PM
Salam

Now it isnt a Russian-Chechen war - it has become a Russian-North Caucaus war.

Over the last few years new fronts had been established as people from places like Dagestan, Ingushetia. Ossetia etc. joined Chechen fighters in resisting the criminal Russians.

Now fighters operate across the whole North Caucaus making it a lot more difficult for Russia.

Russians say they are winning because they have killed alot of the main leaders like Maskhadov, Sadullayev and especially Basayev - but the actions on the ground contradict their claim.
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duskiness
11-13-2006, 11:30 PM
Hi Chechnya,
I whole heartedly support Chechnya. I'm Polish, and as many, many of my compatriots I feel "connected" to that fight. in our capitol one of the biggest roundabouts is named after Dudajev.

But i disagree with what you wrote. Buddenyvosk was wrong. Taking whole hospital, more than 1500 people (women, children and infants among them) hostage is wrong.
And i feel that calling someone who ordered it and organized a "hero" is wrong.

Please don't say than it was done because Russians commit even worst crimes in Caucasus. I would agree that may be true. But it still doesn't make action in Buddenyvosk right or Basajev a hero
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Keltoi
11-13-2006, 11:54 PM
Originally Posted by duskiness
Hi Chechnya,
I whole heartedly support Chechnya. I'm Polish, and as many, many of my compatriots I feel "connected" to that fight. in our capitol one of the biggest roundabouts is named after Dudajev.

But i disagree with what you wrote. Buddenyvosk was wrong. Taking whole hospital, more than 1500 people (women, children and infants among them) hostage is wrong.
And i feel that calling someone who ordered it and organized a "hero" is wrong.

Please don't say than it was done because Russians commit even worst crimes in Caucasus. I would agree that may be true. But it still doesn't make action in Buddenyvosk right or Basajev a hero

This is how I felt too. I know that the Russians have been very brutal and savage in their actions, but what happened in Beslan, the theater, etc have done nothing but aid Moscow in convincing the world it is a terrorist enemy they face, regardless of the fact their terrorism has been just as brutal against the civilians in Chechnya.
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Chechnya
11-14-2006, 12:28 AM
Hi Chechnya,
I whole heartedly support Chechnya. I'm Polish, and as many, many of my compatriots I feel "connected" to that fight. in our capitol one of the biggest roundabouts is named after Dudajev.

But i disagree with what you wrote. Buddenyvosk was wrong. Taking whole hospital, more than 1500 people (women, children and infants among them) hostage is wrong.
And i feel that calling someone who ordered it and organized a "hero" is wrong.

Please don't say than it was done because Russians commit even worst crimes in Caucasus. I would agree that may be true. But it still doesn't make action in Buddenyvosk right or Basajev a hero
Salam Duskiness

Buddenyvosk is a complicated matter - but if i were forced to give an answer i would say it had to happen.
Not because i wanted Russian civilians to die (most of whom were killed by the russians) but because Buddenyvosk led to a ceasefire and was the begininning of the end of the war.

As you probably know Shamil Basayev didnt plan to take a hospital in Buddenyvosk - their plan was to reach the kremlin and atack the people who started the genocidal war and go down fighting in Moscow. They only ended up in Buddenyvosk when they got caught by Russian police.

Like it or not, Buddenyosk saved thousands and thousads of Chechen lives.

It was because of the success of saving Chechen lives in Buddenyvosk that Basayev tried Beslan. It was a very very bad move and i was happy that he offered to pay the price and go on trial.

But Buddenyosk isnt why he is a hero - its because of he's outstanding military ability which has defeated the Russians before. It was Shamil Baayev that led the brilliant counter-attack on Grzony, defeating the Russians and forcing them out.
Even the American military admires him - one American Major said it was Basayev who had forced Russia to its knees and attributed the Chechen success to his leaderhip - he compared him to William Wallace :D
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north_malaysian
11-14-2006, 03:32 AM
Why only Christians responding to Chechnya's article?:rollseyes

Now the whole Caucasus region against Russia? Why? I thought Ossetian are Christians... why they want to go against Russia? How about Tatars and Bashkirs.. are they supporting Chechens too?

I've heard that now it's between Russia vs. Georgia, as Russia wants South Ossetia incorporated into North Ossetia.
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duskiness
11-14-2006, 08:40 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Why only Christians responding to Chechnya's article?:rollseyes
why not? :D

Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Now the whole Caucasus region against Russia? Why? I thought Ossetian are Christians...
because it's not a conflict between religions but between nations.
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Chechnya
11-14-2006, 01:19 PM
Why only Christians responding to Chechnya's article?
Salam Bro

I think Chechnya is not so popular in the Muslim world after the Chechens condemned Hamas for stabbing them in the back.

Even though it was Hamas who did the back-stabbing, ost Muslims still seem support them - at the expense of Chechnya - and take no notice of their evil actions.

I think sub-conciously (sp?) many maybe think an Arab is more important than a non-Arab - thats the only reason i can think of.

Now the whole Caucasus region against Russia? Why? I thought Ossetian are Christians... why they want to go against Russia? How about Tatars and Bashkirs.. are they supporting Chechens too?
Tatars arent. Its only the countries directly linked to Chechna like Dagestan, Ingushetia etc.
Ossetia is mainly Christian but there are still Muslims their who have now joined the fight. Only a few weeks ago the Ossetian Jamaat said it would start targeting Russian military helicopters and a couple of days later it shot down a helicopter and killed about 15 soldiers.

because it's not a conflict between religions but between nations.

I think it is religious now - especially as the Christian authorities give blessings to Russian soldiers before they go and kill and rape in Chechnya.
Chechen fighters are motivated by religion too as you can see in their statements and slogans.
But essentially you are right - this isnt Muslims vs Christian , its Russia vs North Caucaus.
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duskiness
11-14-2006, 07:59 PM
Salam/ Peace Chechnya

Originally Posted by Chechnya
Buddenyvosk is a complicated matter - but if i were forced to give an answer i would say it had to happen.
Not because i wanted Russian civilians to die (most of whom were killed by the russians) but because Buddenyvosk led to a ceasefire and was the begininning of the end of the war.

As you probably know Shamil Basayev didnt plan to take a hospital in Buddenyvosk - their plan was to reach the kremlin and atack the people who started the genocidal war and go down fighting in Moscow. They only ended up in Buddenyvosk when they got caught by Russian police.

Like it or not, Buddenyosk saved thousands and thousads of Chechen lives.

It was because of the success of saving Chechen lives in Buddenyvosk that Basayev tried Beslan. It was a very very bad move and i was happy that he offered to pay the price and go on trial.
That's utilitarian way of thinking. And i disagree with it. Fact that this action brought (for a moment!) peace to Chechnya, fact that killing those people save other lives, doesn't still make it anything good, moral, acceptable or something, for which i would think high of Basayev. I think, that it was the moment, when he started his way, that in the end leaded to Beslan. (it seems you have similar opinion)

But Buddenyosk isnt why he is a hero - its because of he's outstanding military ability which has defeated the Russians before. It was Shamil Baayev that led the brilliant counter-attack on Grzony, defeating the Russians and forcing them out.
Even the American military admires him - one American Major said it was Basayev who had forced Russia to its knees and attributed the Chechen success to his leaderhip - he compared him to William Wallace :D
Does outstanding military abilities make someone a hero? Hero is -as i see it- some who "fought a good fight".

I think it is religious now - especially as the Christian authorities give blessings to Russian soldiers before they go and kill and rape in Chechnya.
Chechen fighters are motivated by religion too as you can see in their statements and slogans.
But essentially you are right - this isnt Muslims vs Christian , its Russia vs North Caucaus.
Those Russian soldier are fighting to keep Moscow power in the land where no one wants it. There is little place for religion there...


Ps: if I'm not too nosy - are you coming form there?
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snakelegs
11-14-2006, 08:16 PM
what is russia's real motive in chechnya - oil? strategic location?
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starfortress
11-14-2006, 10:18 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
what is russia's real motive in chechnya - oil? strategic location?
They being haunted from the old memories of USSR super power-its all about Prestige.They cannot stand to lose more territories after the fallen of Soviet Union.

Maybe bro Chechnya have the better answer
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snakelegs
11-14-2006, 10:45 PM
but the problem with russians and chechnya predates the collapse of the soviet union, doesn't it?
i think what you say is partially true but that it is more complex.
if i remember right what i've read, the whole population of chechnya was exiled during WW2 because the russians didn't trust them.
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Chechnya
11-15-2006, 01:05 AM
That's utilitarian way of thinking. And i disagree with it. Fact that this action brought (for a moment!) peace to Chechnya, fact that killing those people save other lives, doesn't still make it anything good, moral, acceptable or something, for which i would think high of Basayev. I think, that it was the moment, when he started his way, that in the end leaded to Beslan. (it seems you have similar opinion)
If you ask the opinion of the western journalists who covered the war or Chechens themselves - they will all tell you Buddenyvosk was the beginning of the end of the war.
Without the ceasefire Basayev won from Buddenyvosk, they would never have been able to carry out the counter-atack on Grozny and the war wouldnt have ended.

Maybe Buddenyvosk turned out to be the lesser of two evils.

Needless to say, every action like Buddenyvosk is because of this ongoing brutal war and every thing comes back to the Russian treatment of Chechens.

For example all of the women in the Nord-orst hostage-taking had either had their family members killed or had been raped - if that hadnt happened they wouldnt have come to Moscow.

Even Shamil basayev always offered to observe international law if russians did the same - why didnt the russians take him up on his offer?

Does outstanding military abilities make someone a hero? Hero is -as i see it- some who "fought a good fight".
For what he has done -especially in ending the first war he will always be a hero - albeit a flawed one.


Those Russian soldier are fighting to keep Moscow power in the land where no one wants it. There is little place for religion there...


Ps: if I'm not too nosy - are you coming form there?
No im not from their but i know brothers that are.

what is russia's real motive in chechnya - oil? strategic location?

Oil is one of the reasons. Russias imperial ambitions is another. Russians are still living in the past where they think they are an empire and have th right to rule over others.
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north_malaysian
11-15-2006, 03:31 AM
Originally Posted by Chechnya
Salam Bro

I think Chechnya is not so popular in the Muslim world
Maybe because Russia is seen as an ally to the Muslim world as they need someone to protect them from America. Maybe that's why Putin attend OIC summit in KL as an observer few years ago....

Originally Posted by Chechnya
Tatars arent. Its only the countries directly linked to Chechna like Dagestan, Ingushetia etc.
No wonder that the Tatar students in Malaysia proudly call themselves Russians. While the Chechen students are not friendly with the Tatars.

Originally Posted by Chechnya

it's Russia vs North Caucaus.
How about Russia vs Georgia?
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Chechnya
11-15-2006, 01:25 PM
Maybe because Russia is seen as an ally to the Muslim world as they need someone to protect them from America. Maybe that's why Putin attend OIC summit in KL as an observer few years ago....
Russia murders and rapes Muslims almost daily - until the backward Arabs get that into their head, they wont realise that Russia is a big enemy of Muslims.

Russia kills more Muslims, rapes more Muslims, tortures more Muslims than America - i dont understand how Arabs can claim to have Russia as an ally.

Hamas and all the Arab nationalists need to decide between - Arab nationalism and Islamic brotherhood.



How about Russia vs Georgia?
I cant imagine such a conflict taking place. Georgia is very pro-western so many western nations would see to it that there isnt a full blown conflict.

If there was one, it would weaken Russia even more as they would have to spread their army across an even bigger space - though it wouldnt be so good for the Georgian people.
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blunderbus
11-15-2006, 06:29 PM
I would never under any circumstances call the man responsible for Beslan a "hero", regardless of his motives.

If EVERYTHING else were the same, but he was a non-Muslim and the children slaughtered were Muslims, I doubt anyone on this board would think of him as one either.
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Hijrah
11-15-2006, 07:51 PM
Great guy he is...but isn't it true he has an obsession with Che Gueverra
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Chechnya
11-15-2006, 09:35 PM
I would never under any circumstances call the man responsible for Beslan a "hero", regardless of his motives.

If EVERYTHING else were the same, but he was a non-Muslim and the children slaughtered were Muslims, I doubt anyone on this board would think of him as one either.
Your entitled to your opinion. Something tells me you dont know the first thing about him.

Great guy he is...but isn't it true he has an obsession with Che Gueverra
Obsession? :uuh:

No. He did admire him in his younger days whilst living in the communist Soviet state - when he came to Islam obviously his views changed.
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north_malaysian
11-16-2006, 02:17 AM
Originally Posted by Chechnya
when he came to Islam obviously his views changed.
He's a convert?
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Chechnya
11-16-2006, 02:28 AM
Salam

He wasnt a convert. Living in the Communist state he was far from religion like most people their and it was only after 1991 and the fall of communism that he started learning about Islam.
He was always a Muslim but not a practicing one. He did say though in his early days his belief in God stopped him from becoming a communist.
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north_malaysian
11-16-2006, 02:30 AM
Originally Posted by Chechnya
Salam

He wasnt a convert. Living in the Communist state he was far from religion like most people their and it was only after 1991 and the fall of communism that he started learning about Islam.
He was always a Muslim but not a practicing one. He did say though in his early days his belief in God stopped him from becoming a communist.
Thanks for clarification... are all Chechens practicing Islam again after the fall of Soviet Union?
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Chechnya
11-16-2006, 02:34 AM
Thanks for clarification... are all Chechens practicing Islam again after the fall of Soviet Union?
I dont think in any nation does everyone practise - Chechnya is probably like any other nation - some do, some dont.

Of course the war has increased the amount of people turning back to Islam.
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blunderbus
11-16-2006, 03:58 AM
Your Hero...From Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_...hostage_crisis

"Presumably, the attackers chose this particular day for maximum impact, knowing they could involve a greater number of children."

"Immediately after having gathered all the hostages in the gym, the attackers set about killing about twenty of the adult male hostages, reportedly the strongest in the group.[5][6] The attackers forced other hostages to throw their bodies out of the building and set some children to wash the blood off the floor."

"On day two, many of the young children started to succumb to being denied food and water and being forced to stand up for long periods in the tightly packed and hot gym. Many fainted and the parents feared they would start to die. Occasionally, the terrorists took out some of the unconscious children, and poured water on their heads before returning them to the gym. Reportedly, some resorted to drinking their own urine"

"...However, sexual impropriety allegedly did take place in the form of rape of several of the young children and adolescent girls whose cries and screams could be heard echo through the school according to some survivors.[11] This claim however is controversial, another hostage reports that there were so many shouts and screams that one could not possible distinguish one from others. Surviving hostage Kazbek Dzarasov reports that the terrorists would pick from amongst the prettiest adolescent girls and take them to another room with an excuse of having them fetch water, rape them, and return them a few hours later.[12]"

"As the day and night wore on, the combination of stress and sleep deprivation—and possibly drug withdrawal[16])—made the terrorists increasingly hysterical and unpredictable. The crying of the children irritated them, and on several occasions children and their mothers were threatened that if they didn't stop crying they'd be shot"

"On September 17, 2004, Shamil Basayev issued a statement claiming responsibility for Beslan school siege,[27][28] saying his Riyadus-Salikhin "martyr battalion" had carried out this and other attacks, and further, that the attackers were in heaven and the killed hostages in hell."

What a great guy he was.
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blunderbus
11-16-2006, 01:28 PM
Is this really who Muslims want to put forward as a great Islamic hero? Almost 200 dead schoolchildren (that's not counting the dead adults).

I know I shouldn't make inferences about the entire Muslim world on the opinion of one person so I ask...What do the other Muslim posters on this site say? Is Basayev a hero to you?
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Chechnya
11-16-2006, 03:07 PM
I know he is responsible for the deliberate cold blooded murder of young schoolchildren.

Something tells me you don't care about the deaths of innocents if they are not Muslims. The fact that you would consider such a man a hero says a lot about you.
Something tells me you believe everything bad you hear about Muslims regardless of whther it makes sense or not.

No. He is not responsible for the "deliberate" murder of children. Everything that happened in the school shows that the hostage-takers had no intention of blowing up the place - when the Russians stopped negotiating with them, did they blow up the place? No. That was never the plan. They did nothing they just waited until someone came to their senses and talked to them.

As for who killed most of the children - even Russian parents have come out and said that some of the "terrorists" helped them get out once the firefight started and many have also confimed their kids were shot at from the Russian side.

That brings us to the main point - why did they do it in the first place?

The answer is simple. Russias refusal to observe international law and its cold blooded murder of a 25% of Chechen citizens including about 30,000 children - where is your sympathy and condemnation for the murder oftens of thousands of Chechn children? Why talk about Beslan and not talk about what led to Beslan?

Having said all that - it still doesnt justify what happened in Beslan - it was a massive mistake.

Shamil Basayev recognised his role in it by offering to either go on trial after the war ended or handing himself over immediately to the Russians if the war was stopped.

So he offered to pay the price for what he did and not run away - even if the price was a death sentence.

Now, how man non-muslim leaders - who have murdered thousands of more children than i Beslan - will EVER make such an offer?

Will Bush offer to pay for the tens of thousands of dead Iraqis and Afghans? Will Olmert offer to pay for the dead Lebanese? Will Putin offer to pay for the hundreds of thousands of dead Chechens?

Something tells me, no.

Shamil basayev made a massive mistake - but unlike any other leader he offered to hand himself over and pay the ulimate price for it.


Your Hero...From Wikipedia
A friendly word of advice: dont use wikpedia as a source, you can find all sorts of rubbish, lies and half-truths.

If you are serious about finding out about Basayev and Chechnya in general then you i'll refer you to the many western journalists who covered the Chechen war from both sides and have met all the players in the war many times including Basayev.


Is this really who Muslims want to put forward as a great Islamic hero? Almost 200 dead schoolchildren (that's not counting the dead adults).

I know I shouldn't make inferences about the entire Muslim world on the opinion of one person so I ask...What do the other Muslim posters on this site say? Is Basayev a hero to you?
Shamil Basayev also saved a hundred thousand lives in the first war ny defeating the rampaging russians and forcing them out of the country. Even the Americans were in love with him.
Shamil Basayev is a hero to some, maybe not to others (like your good self) - it all depends if you have any knowledege of him.
No-one supports Beslan but that doenst mean you dont support Basayev. An example: When the great Muslim leader Khalid bin Waleed (ra) committed a wrong action during war, the Prophet (saw) said " I am free of what Khalid did" - meaning he didnt support that action, condemned IT but not the person himself since Khalid Bin Waleed (ra) had learnt the wrongness of what he did.
Similarly most people dont support Beslan and are happy Shamil basayev recognised his massive error, offered to go on trial for it and pay in full - but dont distance themselves from his fight, only his wrong actions.

As for him being a "hero", just read about his military actions, bravery, skill against a vastly superior enemy - some even glorified by the American military for whom he became essential reading - to see why this is so. A flawed hero no doubt - mainly because of his inability to control his temper (unlike Aslan Maskhadov who was always cool) as he watched his people being wiped out - and that led him to extreme measures as Beslan.

Sorry for going on a bit. If you have any questions, dont hesitate to ask.

Salam
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Keltoi
11-16-2006, 04:05 PM
The terrorists didn't plan to blow up the building, but they rigged the gym with explosives anyway? There is no justification for what happened in Beslan. As much as I might sympathize with what has happened in Chechnya, the deliberate murder of hundreds of children puts these "martyrs" in the same category as those they believe are oppressing them. They are murderers, pure and simple. What happened in Beslan pretty much put an end to any international sympathy for the Chechens, and now Russia will have an easier time doing whatever it feels necessary.
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Keltoi
11-16-2006, 06:50 PM
You condemned Beslan and then stated it was the "international community's" fault that is happened. While I agree that more pressure should have been put on Putin to alter the conduct of the conflict, that in no way excuses or justifies the evil that occurred in Beslan. I understand that you aren't condoning what happened, but in a way you are justifying an evil act by pointing to the evil acts of another. I remember you comparing Shamil Basayev to William Wallace, who while much more brutal than the movie Braveheart would lead one to believe, would have never resorted to the slaughter of hundreds of children.
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Keltoi
11-16-2006, 06:58 PM
You must also admit that while Shamil Basayev is popular among the Islamic fighters in Chechnya, the civilian population feels trapped between Russian forces and the Islamic fighters. There isn't widespread Chechen support for these Islamic fighters either. Human Rights Watch has documented cases where Islamic fighters have launched attacks from civilian areas(sound familiar?), and refused to leave civilian towns when the people have asked them to do so.
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Hawa
11-16-2006, 07:51 PM
Originally Posted by blunderbus
NOTHING justifies Beslan, get it? Anyone who had a hand in planning it or carrying it out is a monster.
agreed. That includes the murdering pillaging Russians and each and every one of us who remains silent while people are pushed to commit such horrendous acts. Now before you start your usual muslims are murderers speech I want to go on the records and say; yes we are!
Muslims are human after all, it seems silly for you to expect us to be killed and just sit there grinning from ear to ear. Its pathetic how you keep pinpointing muslims actions and never anyone elses..and its downright sick how you overlook the pains of muslims the world over and still have the nerve to question our actions.
Quite frankly I dont give a hoot about the Beslan children, and to put it bluntly neither do you. Im being honest..I could care less about them, after watching and reading world news for the past few hours..I couldnt care less about anything.
The only time I hear people mention massacres is when they want to point the finger at others, yes, Beslan happened, now what? why dont you try and get to the root of the problem? I believe Chechnya mentioned thousands of Chechen children were murdered. Did that stir you? do you give a damm? (purposefully misspelt)
answer anyone?
Im sick of everyone expecting muslims to "behave" while we're being slaughtered day in and day out. Wake up people, we live in a jungle as long as you harm a certain people, best believe they will harm you and yours.
It's simple, I want to know if the Muslim posters on this board consider Basayev a hero like Chechnya does. Is his opinion the norm or the minority?
hero? nope..
human? definately.
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Muezzin
11-16-2006, 11:45 PM
Personal attacks will not be tolerated. Any more will lead to severe infractions and this thread is currently on the verge of being locked.
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blunderbus
11-16-2006, 11:59 PM
"it seems silly for you to expect us to be killed and just sit there grinning from ear to ear."
As I stated before, I do not expect that. (Have I criticized the Chechen resistance as a whole? No I have not.) I have critized the idea that a person who has admitted to slaughtering over a hundred small children is someone who should be looked too as a hero.

"Now before you start your usual muslims are murderers speech"
Most Muslims are not murderers, but Basayev is.

"The only time I hear people mention massacres is when they want to point the finger at others, yes, Beslan happened, now what?"
I didn't bring it up. The thread is about the idolization of the man who is responsible for Beslan.
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blunderbus
11-17-2006, 12:02 AM
Most Muslims are not murderers, but Basayev WAS. (typo)
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Chechnya
11-17-2006, 01:30 AM
No doubt you wanted the genocide of the Chechn nation to continue - Basayev stopped it - when all the world turned away and left them to die. Gotta love the fella! :thankyou:
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blunderbus
11-17-2006, 05:56 AM
Maybe one day when you have children of your own then you will understand.

Maybe they will give you the humanity to realize that someone who deliberately slaughters the precious little ones is never to be idolized.

I hope one day you will learn to appreciate all innocent human life. This isn't about Muslim vs non Muslim, it's a shame you can't see that.

I got this from the thread "Posting in the World Affairs Section - 05-16-2006"

"No praise of, condoning of, or calls for violence or other unislamic behaviour will be tolerated whatsover on the forum."

I would like a clarification. Was Mr. Basayev's behavior "islamic"? It certainly was violent. Isn't calling someone a "hero" condoning their acts?

I'm still waiting to hear from the administrators. Was mr. Basayev's behaviour "islamic" or not. I would really like to know. Does the "religion of peace" condone the butchering of hundreds of little children?

I couldn't get the admin's interested so I looked it up myself.
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...ing%20children

"...is absolutely not permitted to mutilate the dead; nor to kill a child;"

"Only a criminal with a heart harder than a stone which has no mercy, does not know Allaah, and does not believe in the hereafter would do such acts. It is not even possible for a sane person to believe that such a person is a Muslim. This is a fact that can't be hidden even if the person is disguised in Muslim clothing and grows a beard."

So Shamil Basayev was NOT a great hero to the Muslim world. He wasn't even a true Muslim. He didn't know Allah and he didn't believe in the hereafter. He was a CRIMINAL in EVERY sense of the word!

Am I missing something? Tell me if I am.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
11-17-2006, 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by blunderbus
I'm still waiting to hear from the administrators. Was mr. Basayev's behaviour "islamic" or not. I would really like to know. Does the "religion of peace" condone the butchering of hundreds of little children?

:rollseyes

You forget the sanctions on Iraq.
Reply

blunderbus
11-17-2006, 02:40 PM
You didn't answer my question.

Was Basayev's behavior islamic? And if it isn't why do you allow praise for him on the board? Isn't that a violation of the posted rules?

Why is it so difficult to find one single Muslim on this board who will condemn an admitted mass child murderer?

You want to attack me or change the topic, ANYTHING to avoid dealing with the subject.

I would have thought that Basayev's behavior was un-islamic, but considering the attitude on this board I'm beginning to wonder.
Reply

blunderbus
11-17-2006, 03:40 PM
I've completely run out of patience.

I have no more patience for the barbarity and lack of humanity shown by SOME of the posters.

I have no more patience for the administrators who will not enforce their own rules.

I came to this board to learn about Islam and I have. I wont be posting or coming here anymore.

I truly pray that none of your precious little children are ever in the hands of someone like Basayev, even though I know you wont return the favor for my little ones.
Reply

Chechnya
11-17-2006, 04:56 PM
Was Basayev's behavior islamic?
Beslan, no. His decade long fight against the Russian military, yes - him saving the Chechn people from total annhilation in the first war, yes. I love him greatly for that - and so should all others here.

And if it isn't why do you allow praise for him on the board? Isn't that a violation of the posted rules?
Already answered - its not our fault you cant read. Im not gonna repeat it again for little kids who have the attention span of a 2 year old :rollseyes


I would have thought that Basayev's behavior was un-islamic, but considering the attitude on this board I'm beginning to wonder.
Yes, Beslan was very unislamic.

Until you get into your think skull, that Shamil repented what he did in beslan and offered to die for it, you wont understand anything.
An education is a great thing - i reccommend it to you :)

I've completely run out of patience.

I have no more patience for the barbarity and lack of humanity shown by SOME of the posters
I have no more patience for the barbarity and lack of humanity shown by SOME of the posters like yourself who seemingly want the Chechen people to continue to be slaughtered.

I have no more patience for the administrators who will not enforce their own rules.

I came to this board to learn about Islam and I have. I wont be posting or coming here anymore.
:thankyou:

If you ever decide to get that education, please do return to us.

I truly pray that none of your precious little children are ever in the hands of someone like Basayev, even though I know you wont return the favor for my little ones.
Rather than pretending to care about us - do us a favour, sort your own people out.
Try not to re-elect mass-murderers who have been slaughtering muslim women and children. Only when you have achieved this can we talk properly. Adios!
Reply

Keltoi
11-17-2006, 07:07 PM
This is all a matter of perspective. Blunderbus is upset because he feels there isn't enough condemnation of what happened in Beslan. Those posters whose perspective is that of Chechen supporters feel they have condemned the massacre, but feel outraged that Westerners seem so upset about Beslan but say nothing about the atrocities committed by Russians upon the Chechen children. It is a product of perspective. As small as the world is getting, (globalization), there is still a disconnect between much of the world and the those forgotten countries like Chechnya whose plight gets little to no global media attention. If we can all agree on anything, perhaps it is that Belsan was an evil act, the atrocities by the Russians were and are evil acts...and the best we can hope for is an end to violence from both sides.
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blunderbus
11-17-2006, 08:37 PM
I had to come back one more time...

"that Shamil repented what he did in beslan and offered to die for it"
That's a crock and you know it! He never quite got around to turning himself in, did he? But that's someone elses fault too, isn't it? That offer was just for the benefit of people like you!

There is NEVER a justification for specifically targeting children. They were like wolves hunting rabbits and you're too full of evil to have any compassion for those tiny victims. They were kafir so there lives are not important to you, why don't you just admit it. Do you smile when you think of your brave muslim warriors raping 9 year old girls? Or your heroes shooting fleeing children in the back? I bet you wish you could have dealt out some of your own misery to the little kafirs. Do you chuckle when think of little children being forced to drink their own urine? You do if they are kafir children (not really humans anyway right?) Don't lie and say you have any feelings at all for them, you called their murderer a "HERO!"

You say that I don't care about the deaths of innocents?! I didn't start a thread calling a child butcherer a hero, you did! You brought it up. Get it? You're the one that made light of the deaths of innocents NOT ME.

"Rather than pretending to care about us "
You can't point to a single post I've made celebrating anyone who deliberately massacred Muslim children.
Did I call the Russians who commit atrocities in Chechnya "heroes"? I did not. You call an admitted mass child murderer a "Hero" and you have the audacity to suggest that it is ME that is cold hearted!

"If we can all agree on anything, perhaps it is that Belsan was an evil act, the atrocities by the Russians were and are evil acts...and the best we can hope for is an end to violence from both sides."
I completely agree with this but Chechnya doesn't. To him only one half of this is evil, the other is heroic. It all depends on the religion of the victim and victimizer.

"Chechen supporters feel they have condemned the massacre"
yet love the man that carried it out, give me a break!


Chechnya,you have no soul, no heart, no humanity. You only see people as human beings if they are like you. Their suffering isn't important as long as you get what you want. You are EXACTLY like the Russians committing the atrocities in Chechnya, no difference, NONE. You and everyone like you disgust me. People like you are the reason there is so much death and pain in the world.

"If you ever decide to get that education"
You've given me quite an education already. I thought it was self apparent to EVERYONE that terrorizing, raping and murdering children is ALWAYS wrong and anyone who purposefully does it is not to be admired, but I was wrong. Some people don't have the humanity to grasp that simple concept.
Reply

Muezzin
11-17-2006, 09:34 PM
This thread ran its course long ago. Locked.
Reply

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