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sonz
11-20-2006, 07:36 PM
The mayor of London said Muslims are demonized like Jews were in the past.

“Over recent weeks we have seen a demonization of Muslims only comparable to the demonization of Jews from the end of the 19th century,” Ken Livingstone said Monday.

He referred to recent comments from British Home Secretary Jack Straw questioning whether it’s appropriate for Muslim women to wear full veils in public.

Livingstone’s comments were made in connection with today’s launch of a coalition comprised of legislators, unions, campaign groups and Muslim groups to confront Islamophobia in Britain.

http://jta.org/page_view_breaking_story.asp?intid=5670
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Keltoi
11-20-2006, 08:43 PM
Questioning whether it is appropriate for Muslim women to wear full veils in public is comparable to the plight of the Jews in the 19th century? Is this a joke?
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Pk_#2
11-20-2006, 09:58 PM
I Dun Get It
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- Qatada -
11-20-2006, 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Questioning whether it is appropriate for Muslim women to wear full veils in public is comparable to the plight of the Jews in the 19th century? Is this a joke?


Muslims actually get abused because of what the media portrays about us. The jew situation took steps, and the concentration camps never just happened within one day - but it was a gradual change. And Allaah Almighty knows best.



Peace.
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Woodrow
11-21-2006, 03:12 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Questioning whether it is appropriate for Muslim women to wear full veils in public is comparable to the plight of the Jews in the 19th century? Is this a joke?
To answer you, let us take a close look at the original post:

The mayor of London said Muslims are demonized like Jews were in the past.

“Over recent weeks we have seen a demonization of Muslims only comparable to the demonization of Jews from the end of the 19th century,” Ken Livingstone said Monday.

He referred to recent comments from British Home Secretary Jack Straw questioning whether it’s appropriate for Muslim women to wear full veils in public.

Livingstone’s comments were made in connection with today’s launch of a coalition comprised of legislators, unions, campaign groups and Muslim groups to confront Islamophobia in Britain.
Begining in the late 1800's there was a slow continuous destruction of the few rights jews had. The out right viciousness did not occur over night. It took a few years. In the late 1800's Jews had essentialy the same rights of other citizens. Yes, there was blatant prejudice and bigotry, but had not yet become solidified in law.

As we rolled into the 2oth century what was bigotry by individuals was becoming national law. Restrictions of religious rights, forced to live in Ghettos, By the late 1920s required to wear labels pointing them out as Jews. From there it progeressed rapidly.

It is true we have not yet reached the level of intolerance shown to the Jews by the 1930s. But, we see restrictions and bigotry opening up the probability that we may soon face the same fate.
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north_malaysian
11-21-2006, 06:03 AM
Mayor Livingstone is a Jew, right?
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KAding
11-21-2006, 07:10 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Mayor Livingstone is a Jew, right?
No. He's not a Jew.
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Abdulwaheed
11-21-2006, 07:23 AM
Lets just hope more people recognise this and stop the islamaphobia
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Nisrin
11-21-2006, 07:48 AM
Salaam oe alaikoem,

Well it's true wat he have said. That is something muslims in the Netherlands starting to say know. First nobody looked at the mulisms. They maby didn't even know what muslims are. But now with the time, they look more and more to muslims. Muslims did that and they do that and so on. They talk about terrorism, but there isn;t any. Just look to Iraq.
Look to the palestinian people. They are fighting for their freedom, for their children, for their country, but O no !! they are Terrorists. The Jews are victims and muslims are the bad guys.

Last week i told them at school that I don't have trust in this situation now. That I feel that we or at least or children will be in a real war.

Allah ie hfad....

But that is how I feel. So I agree with the idea that muslims are demonized like Jews were in the past. If we aren;t then we will be...

Wa alaikoem salaam
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KAding
11-21-2006, 08:47 AM
Originally Posted by Abdulwaheed
Lets just hope more people recognise this and stop the islamaphobia
I don't think there is a good chance of stopping Islamophobia as long as there is a war going on between some Muslims and the UK government. In other words, as long as many (British) Muslims see the UK as their enemy and vise versa.
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SirZubair
11-21-2006, 08:55 AM
Good onya' Mayor Livingstone.

The media has a responsibility.

So far, it is not living up to it.
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KAding
11-21-2006, 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by SirZubair
Good onya' Mayor Livingstone.

The media has a responsibility.

So far, it is not living up to it.
I disagree. The media are just the messenger in this. Lets not blame the media for these hostilities between many Muslims and many Westerners. There are real and serious issues which are causing this rift.
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KAding
11-21-2006, 05:35 PM
Besides, I think kaffirophobia is a much bigger threat :p.
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- Qatada -
11-21-2006, 05:56 PM
Did you know, the government is the one who actually controls what goes on in the media. I havn't yet seen one proper muslim documentary which shows the true teachings of islamic monotheism etc. yet theres so much on at prime time such as muslim homosexuals, or women not going to masjids.


Why is that? It's because if they show the true faith of islaam (of worshipping the Creator, Allaah Alone etc.) many people will start agreeing with islaam, or start leaning towards it. They don't want that, they just want the prejudice to increase, and the government can laugh at what's going on, the same way the governments never did nothing about the jews until everything was over.


Many people say that we can learn from the past, but if it's an advantage for themselves - they not going to stop that evil are they?
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TheRightPathI
11-21-2006, 06:50 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Did you know, the government is the one who actually controls what goes on in the media. I havn't yet seen one proper muslim documentary which shows the true teachings of islamic monotheism etc. yet theres so much on at prime time such as muslim homosexuals, or women not going to masjids.


Why is that? It's because if they show the true faith of islaam (of worshipping the Creator, Allaah Alone etc.) many people will start agreeing with islaam, or start leaning towards it. They don't want that, they just want the prejudice to increase, and the government can laugh at what's going on, the same way the governments never did nothing about the jews until everything was over.


Many people say that we can learn from the past, but if it's an advantage for themselves - they not going to stop that evil are they?
:sl: Exactly. Nuff Said. :w:
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KAding
11-21-2006, 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Did you know, the government is the one who actually controls what goes on in the media. I havn't yet seen one proper muslim documentary which shows the true teachings of islamic monotheism etc. yet theres so much on at prime time such as muslim homosexuals, or women not going to masjids.

Why is that?
Because thats what these non-Muslims think is important.

It's because if they show the true faith of islaam (of worshipping the Creator, Allaah Alone etc.) many people will start agreeing with islaam, or start leaning towards it. They don't want that, they just want the prejudice to increase, and the government can laugh at what's going on, the same way the governments never did nothing about the jews until everything was over.
Complete nonsense in my opinion :). Why do you think journalists would be any different from the rest of the people? Journalists are just as much a product of the society in which they are born as the rest of the people. They write and talk about the issues that shock them and interest them, not on what interests Muslims.

Unfortunately for you, many aspects of Islam scare them, because the UK is highly secular. I can assure you that many people who do bother to have a detailed look into Islam are not always pleased with what they see. You can see the same with many non-Muslims on this forum, not many are being convinced IMHO.
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Muezzin
11-21-2006, 07:35 PM
I think the lack of pro-Islamic programming has to do with the lack of Muslims working in the media. Get to it, people! :)

Originally Posted by KAding
I disagree. The media are just the messenger in this.
A messenger that picks and chooses which facts to relay, resulting in a distorted picture.

Lets not blame the media for these hostilities between many Muslims and many Westerners. There are real and serious issues which are causing this rift.
That is true. And the media (along with a host of other issues, including some Muslims and some racist skinheads) are one of them.
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- Qatada -
11-21-2006, 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by KAding
Because thats what these non-Muslims think is important.

So you mean that it's more important for the public to realise that there are homosexual muslims living in the uk, or the fact that islaam doesn't promote these terrorism acts?


Complete nonsense in my opinion :). Why do you think journalists would be any different from the rest of the people? Journalists are just as much a product of the society in which they are born as the rest of the people. They write and talk about the issues that shock them and interest them, not on what interests Muslims.

Muslims are the public too, somehow their media doesn't seem to come up on tv. There are muslim journalists too. :)


Unfortunately for you, many aspects of Islam scare them, because the UK is highly secular. I can assure you that many people who do bother to have a detailed look into Islam are not always pleased with what they see. You can see the same with many non-Muslims on this forum, not many are being convinced IMHO.

Knowing that there is one God who should be worshipped is scary? How come that's not scary for the christians? There are alot of christians within the uk, and alot of people [no matter what faith they belong to] who actually believe in a God or 'Higher authority.'


Most of these people hate islaam because they don't see it's true side, why? Because the media portrays that and even members of the government (i.e. Jack straw) do a good job of it. If you ask any guy walking in the street if they know about what islaam is, they won't know that its to worship the Creator, Allaah, but instead, they'll just think its a religion of terror, why? Because of the media. The media won't allow that stuff to show up because they want to portray it as an evil religion, and their succeeding in that.

They'll use anything (even if its something as harmless as a piece of cloth) to attack islaam.





Peace.
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KAding
11-21-2006, 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
That is true. And the media (along with a host of other issues, including some Muslims and some racist skinheads) are one of them.
Agreed. Just like these people:



Both sides have their extremists who are causing this rift. But again, these extremists are just symptomps of real underlying issues. Issues concerning international conflict, terrorism, crime and religion vs. secularism.
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chris4336
11-21-2006, 08:12 PM
In my opinion it comes down to money. A newspaper will sell more copies with the headline "Muslim women barred from Masjid" than "Muslims unite peacefully to worship one God." I don't think the media really cares about much else.

I think the problem is not just for Muslilms. Headlines like "US gives X dollars to improvished country" are not as catchy "US troops brutally murder X Iraqis" and therefore not as common or talked about.
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Nisrin
11-21-2006, 08:37 PM
Originally Posted by chris4336
In my opinion it comes down to money. A newspaper will sell more copies with the headline "Muslim women barred from Masjid" than "Muslims unite peacefully to worship one God." I don't think the media really cares about much else.

I think the problem is not just for Muslilms. Headlines like "US gives X dollars to improvished country" are not as catchy "US troops brutally murder X Iraqis" and therefore not as common or talked about.
You've got a real good point in this, but it isn't only the money...
People are also scared for Islam...
And so on...
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Keltoi
11-21-2006, 08:50 PM
Did the media create the 7/7 bombings in London? Yes, the media puts out more sensationalist stories rather than warm cuddly ones, but the current climate that exists in the West between Muslims and non-Muslims didn't happen because of the media. There is distrust amongst many non-Muslims towards their Muslim neighbors. This creates distrust amongst Muslims towards their non-Muslim neighbors. To a certain extent, the media does play on these factors for ratings, but it isn't a phenomena they created.
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- Qatada -
11-21-2006, 08:54 PM
The muslims condemn the acts, simple as. They should show that atleast. Homosexuality isn't part of these attacks, their still promoting that.

Muslims are encouraged to be good to their neighbours, even if their non muslim, that isn't shown. If you think they never show real life documentaries, realise that one of the most popular themes today is the lives of average citizens living in the uk. That involves the public, it also involves average middle class citizens etc.



Peace.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
11-21-2006, 09:03 PM
Here's something I posted in another thread:

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Hi Lavikor,

Don't forget that anti-semitic cartoons were the prelude to the holocaust:
A major tool of the Nazis' propaganda assault was the weekly Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer (The Attacker). At the bottom of the front page of each issue, in bold letters, the paper proclaimed, "The Jews are our misfortune!" Der Stürmer also regularly featured cartoons of Jews in which they were caricatured as hooked-nosed and ape*like. The influence of the newspaper was far-reaching: by 1938 about a half million copies were distributed weekly. [SOURCE]
Hmmm...cartoons demonising a religious minority in europe? Sound familiar?

We are in the early stages again. The level of anti-islamic propaganda is mounting everywhere and the hatred towards Islam and Muslims is increasing. I would think that the Jews would be the last people to forget the process by which a religious group is maligned and eventually, massacred.

Peace.
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Keltoi
11-21-2006, 09:06 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
The muslims condemn the acts, simple as. They should show that atleast. Homosexuality isn't part of these attacks, their still promoting that.

Muslims are encouraged to be good to their neighbours, even if their non muslim, that isn't shown. If you think they never show real life documentaries, realise that one of the most popular themes today is the lives of average citizens living in the uk. That involves the public, it also involves average middle class citizens etc.



Peace.
As I'm sure you realize, there is theory and reality. From your perspective, the fact that the majority of Muslims condemn acts of terrorism should be enough to convince non-Muslims that there is no danger from one's Muslim neighbors. A non-Muslim reads the paper and finds out that the terrorists who blew up the trains appeared normal in every way. One was a teacher. So many non-Muslims are living with a certain element of distrust for their fellow Muslims citizens. That doesn't mean these non-Muslims think Islam itself is evil or promotes terrorism, it is simply a basic reality.

As for the homosexual element, I'm afraid I don't understand that since I'm not British. The homosexual component hasn't made its way to the U.S., and I doubt it will. Although after watching the O'Reilly Factor last night, Laura Ingram was sitting in for Bill, I can definately understand why some Muslims feel the media paints a twisted view of Islam. That interview was far and away the most biased and anti-Muslim segment I've yet seen on American television. For those of you who didn't see that interview I would recommend skipping it.
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chris4336
11-21-2006, 09:43 PM
I don't think there are statistics on this, but I am pretty sure a Non-muslim in the west is far more likely to be killed by a Non-Muslim than a Muslim. Even if you take into account that Muslims make up a smaller portion of the population. But there is still a really extreme fear of Muslims in the west.

I think people love having a scapegoat. In the US it was Japanese, then the Russians, now the Muslims. Its simple and trust me American News wants simple. Us=Good, Muslims=Bad, then its very easy to fill up a news hour with clips of Muslims shouting in the street and out of context Quranic verses. People love it - a clear enemy has been identified, so why bother looking at any of our own problems?
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Keltoi
11-21-2006, 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by chris4336
I don't think there are statistics on this, but I am pretty sure a Non-muslim in the west is far more likely to be killed by a Non-Muslim than a Muslim. Even if you take into account that Muslims make up a smaller portion of the population. But there is still a really extreme fear of Muslims in the west.

I think people love having a scapegoat. In the US it was Japanese, then the Russians, now the Muslims. Its simple and trust me American News wants simple. Us=Good, Muslims=Bad, then its very easy to fill up a news hour with clips of Muslims shouting in the street and out of context Quranic verses. People love it - a clear enemy has been identified, so why bother looking at any of our own problems?
You are correct to a certain extent, but that is a fairly sweeping generalization about an issue that is far more complicated.
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Muezzin
11-21-2006, 11:32 PM
Okay, I'll just clarify my standing on this issue: The media does not create these problems, but it can and does fan the flames of conflict by distorting issues, quite deliberately in the case of certain outlets.

One of the reasons why people are so terrified of being attacked by 'Islamic terrorists' is because they read about it in the paper every day. I mean, for crying out loud, you're more likely to be killed by a drunk driver than a terrorist attack. But there's nothing to sell newspapers like a good moral panic. Just ask a paedophile.
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Keltoi
11-22-2006, 02:55 AM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
Okay, I'll just clarify my standing on this issue: The media does not create these problems, but it can and does fan the flames of conflict by distorting issues, quite deliberately in the case of certain outlets.

One of the reasons why people are so terrified of being attacked by 'Islamic terrorists' is because they read about it in the paper every day. I mean, for crying out loud, you're more likely to be killed by a drunk driver than a terrorist attack. But there's nothing to sell newspapers like a good moral panic. Just ask a paedophile.
Ask a pedophile? I'm afraid I didn't catch that analogy, but I'm rather sleepy so maybe I'm missing the obvious. Yes, you are more likely to be killed by a drunk driver than a terrorist. This goes beyond one's personal fear of being killed in a terrorist attack. It is the knowledge that the U.S. and the U.K, and probably every Western nation, have enemies within. These enemies make a point of connecting their actions to Islam, so obviously Islam is going to be the target of media attention.
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Bittersteel
11-22-2006, 04:55 AM
Besides, I think kaffirophobia is a much bigger threat
to you.and to me Islamophobia is a greater threat.to each to his own.
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SirZubair
11-22-2006, 05:20 AM
Originally Posted by KAding
I disagree. The media are just the messenger in this. Lets not blame the media for these hostilities between many Muslims and many Westerners. There are real and serious issues which are causing this rift.

Yes, half-agreed. there are real and serious issues which are causing this rift, and it needs to be sorted.

But at the end of the day, you've got to be kidding to say that the media is 'just' the messenger in this.

For example, the Shaykh Taj dilemma.. Did the media act responsibly?

They (from the beginning to the end) printed their OPINIONS, not a SINGLE newspaper printed Shaykh Taj's Offical Press Statement. IF the media had reported the news AS IT HAPPENED, the 'uncovered meat' story would have Stopped where it had Started. But in reality, that was not the case. The man was harrassed so much by the Media, he got admitted to Hospital because he suffered from a Mild heartattack. Subhan'allah.

So, tell kAding,.. what is the responsibility of the media? To report the news or to spread rumors/lies/cover the truth?

But like i've always said,.. Don't hate the Media, become the media.
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Abu Zakariya
11-22-2006, 02:07 PM
Questioning whether it is appropriate for Muslim women to wear full veils in public is comparable to the plight of the Jews in the 19th century? Is this a joke?
This is one example of the anti-Semitic propaganda in the Ukraine:

"Judaism Without Embellishments" by Trofim Kichko, published by the Academy of Sciences of the Ukrainian SSR in 1963: "It is in the teachings of Judaism, in the Old Testament, and in the Talmud, that the Israeli militarists find inspiration for their inhuman deeds, racist theories, and expansionist designs..."

Here you can find an anti-Semitic caricature:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Antisemiticroths.jpg

If you compare this to what is being said about the teachings of Islam being the source of terrorism and fascism, and the infamous caricatures from Denmark depicting Muslims as suicide bombers, there are clear parallels.
But today, if Judaism and Jews are portrayed as racists that want to take over the world, this is (rightly so) condemned as anti-Semitism, but if Islam and Muslims are portrayed as terrorists that want to take over the world, this is called standing up for democratic values.

And compare this to the banning of niqab, it's about the banning of kosher slaughter:
The former chief rabbi of Norway, Michael Melchior, argues that antisemitism is a motive for the bans: "I won't say this is the only motivation, but it's certainly no coincidence that one of the first things Nazi Germany forbade was kosher slaughter. I also know that during the original debate on this issue in Norway, where shechitah has been banned since 1930, one of the parliamentarians said straight out, 'If they don't like it, let them go live somewhere else.'"

I'm not saying that the situation is exactly the same, that would be downplaying what the Jews had to go through. But there are clear similarities. Only ten years ago there was a genocide of the Muslims in Europe, the worst case of genocide in Europe since WW2 occured in Srebrenica (Bosnia) where some 8,000 Muslims were slaughtered. Do you know what the general responsible for this massacre said to the Dutch in charge of keeping Srebrenica a safe area? He said that they would do the same thing to the Muslims in Holland ten years from then. And the president of the Serb Republic Radovan Karadzic even threatened to annihilate the Muslims of Bosnia.

So I would say no, it's not a joke.
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KAding
11-22-2006, 02:19 PM
Originally Posted by SirZubair
Yes, half-agreed. there are real and serious issues which are causing this rift, and it needs to be sorted.

But at the end of the day, you've got to be kidding to say that the media is 'just' the messenger in this.
The thing is that all sides think the 'media' is against them. Trust me, hang around on some right-wing forums and you'll be bored to death with claims about media-bias. They believe the media is controlled by left-wing cultural relativists that believe strongly in multiculturalism and want to brainwash the people into believing the same. These people think the media is way too soft on Islam and always supports the left.

Another example if Iraq. Those against this war think the media are weak and simply towing the Bush-administration line. Those who think this war is worth fighting believe the media is deliberately undermining the war effort. People attack 'the media' non-stop, on both sides. They can't both be right IMHO. Then again, 'the media' is so broad one can 'prove' anything one wants to 'prove' about media bias.

Besides, there is no way anyone is going to be able to dictate how the media is going to report anyway. So complaining about the media is pretty much the least productive approach possible. There simply is no alternative to the current set up, unless we want to have state controlled media. And even then we can't really control the 'bias'.

For example, the Shaykh Taj dilemma.. Did the media act responsibly?

They (from the beginning to the end) printed their OPINIONS, not a SINGLE newspaper printed Shaykh Taj's Offical Press Statement. IF the media had reported the news AS IT HAPPENED, the 'uncovered meat' story would have Stopped where it had Started. But in reality, that was not the case. The man was harrassed so much by the Media, he got admitted to Hospital because he suffered from a Mild heartattack. Subhan'allah.

So, tell kAding,.. what is the responsibility of the media? To report the news or to spread rumors/lies/cover the truth?
I am not familiar with the case I must say, so I cannot really comment on it.

Sure we everyone wants the media to be 'responsible'. Yet, what is being 'responsible'? This is a matter of opinion, and quite frankly, politics. Besides, the media is more than just reporting news. They have every right to talk about rumors and give opportunities for opinion pieces and commentary.

But like i've always said,.. Don't hate the Media, become the media.
Agreed.
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SirZubair
11-23-2006, 08:23 AM
Originally Posted by KAding
Sure we everyone wants the media to be 'responsible'. Yet, what is being 'responsible'? This is a matter of opinion, and quite frankly, politics. Besides, the media is more than just reporting news. They have every right to talk about rumors and give opportunities for opinion pieces and commentary.
I really must be stupid. For a minute i thought the medias purpose was to report news ... factual news.

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Keltoi
11-23-2006, 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by SirZubair
I really must be stupid. For a minute i thought the medias purpose was to report news ... factual news.

Sometimes facts don't always back up our opinions, and that is why people scream media bias. Yes, there are media outlets who have a particular perspective on an issue, particularly the print media. However, as another poster has already mentioned, the fact that both sides seem to think the media is out to get them is a good indication of a fairly unbiased approach.
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SirZubair
11-24-2006, 08:08 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Sometimes facts don't always back up our opinions, and that is why people scream media bias. Yes, there are media outlets who have a particular perspective on an issue, particularly the print media. However, as another poster has already mentioned, the fact that both sides seem to think the media is out to get them is a good indication of a fairly unbiased approach.
I don't think the media is out to get me.

I support the media where they do right, i condemn the media where they do wrong.

Over the past few years, they've done more wrong than right.

In the 21st century, The media is nothing more than a propoganda spreading tool.
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