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AvarAllahNoor
11-23-2006, 12:16 AM
It is recorded Kitab-ul- Ib’dah [Book containing maliki Fiqh] To shave the beard is haraam and to trim it Shaving the beard is prohibited, as is cutting it if it causes a (clear) mutilation- Why is this?
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Umar001
11-23-2006, 12:20 AM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
It is recorded Kitab-ul- Ib’dah [Book containing maliki Fiqh] To shave the beard is haraam and to trim it Shaving the beard is prohibited, as is cutting it if it causes a (clear) mutilation- Why is this?
Why is it prohibited to shave the beard?
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AvarAllahNoor
11-23-2006, 12:28 AM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Why is it prohibited to shave the beard?
Why?
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subzero
11-23-2006, 12:51 AM
of the subject - did you know that the first person to sahve his beard was gay?
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
11-23-2006, 12:57 AM
:sl:

Ruling on shaving the beard

Question:
What is the ruling on shaving the beard or removing part of it?

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

Shaving the beard is haraam because of the saheeh ahaadeeth that clearly state this, and because of the general application of texts that forbid resembling the kuffaar. One of these reports is the hadeeth of Ibn ‘Umar who said that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Be different from the mushrikeen: let your beards grow and trim your moustaches.” According to another report: “Trim your moustaches and let your beards grow.” There are other hadeeth which convey the same meaning, which is to leave the beard as it is and let it grow long, without shaving, plucking or cutting any part of it. Ibn Hazm reported that there was scholarly consensus that it is an obligation (fard) to trim the moustache and let the beard grow. He quoted a number of ahaadeeth as evidence, including the hadeeth of Ibn ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) quoted above, and the hadeeth of Zayd ibn Arqam in which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever does not remove any of his moustache is not one of us.” (Classed as saheeh by al-Tirmidhi). Ibn Hazm said in al-Furoo’: “This is the way of our colleagues [i.e., the Hanbalis].”

Is it haraam (to shave it)? Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “The Qur’aan, Sunnah and ijmaa’ (scholarly consensus) all indicate that we must differ from the kuffaar in all aspects and not imitate them, because imitating them on the outside will make us imitate them in their bad deeds and habits, and even in beliefs, which will result in befriending them in our hearts, just as loving them in our hearts will lead to imitating them on the outside. Al-Tirmidhi reported that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “He is not one of us who imitates people other than us. Do not imitate the Jews and Christians.” According to another version: “Whoever imitates a people is one of them.” (Reported by Imaam Ahmad) ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab rejected the testimony of the person who plucked his beard. Imaam Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr said in al-Tamheed: “It is forbidden to shave the beard, and no one does this except men who are effeminate” i.e., those who imitate women. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had a thick beard (reported by Muslim from Jaabir). It is not permitted to remove any part of the beard because of the general meaning of the texts which forbid doing so.


Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 5/133

http://islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=11...having%20beard

Also see:
Is there any recommended length of the beard?

Shaving one's beard in fear of persecution

:w:
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Umar001
11-23-2006, 01:10 AM
If your asking why then simple, because the Prophet peace be upon him said not to.
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AvarAllahNoor
11-23-2006, 11:34 PM
I ask because a few of my Sikh brothers ahve been mocked by so called muslims about having beards. Whne they are told Islam forbids you from cutting facial hair, they laugh and say it's a lie.
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Umar001
11-23-2006, 11:37 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
I ask because a few of my Sikh brothers ahve been mocked by so called muslims about having beards. Whne they are told Islam forbids you from cutting facial hair, they laugh and say it's a lie.
May Allah guide me and them

Just ask them if they believe inthe Hadeeth of the prophet, peace be upon him.
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Abu Ibraheem
11-23-2006, 11:59 PM
Salam

The Prophet saaws said oppose the mushrikuwn, trim the mostache and grow the beard. If a brother denys that then i feel sorry for him, because firstly he has opposed the Prophet and not the mushrikuwn and secondly he has agreed with the mushrikuwn.

This brother needs to decide whos sunnah he wants to follow, Prophet Muhammads or George Bushs.
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Grace Seeker
11-24-2006, 02:02 AM
When one says, "trim the moustache" is it necessary to shave it completely off, of is it enough to simply keep it trimmed?

In growing the beard, must it cover the full face, or is it enough to simply have a short beard that covers the chin?
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Islamicboy
11-24-2006, 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
I ask because a few of my Sikh brothers ahve been mocked by so called muslims about having beards. Whne they are told Islam forbids you from cutting facial hair, they laugh and say it's a lie.
They are secular muslims. They have little to no knowledge of islam these same people say music is allowed.
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Abu Ibraheem
11-24-2006, 02:59 PM
Salaam

Trimming means trimming it closly and not having the mostache going over the top lip, and the trimming of the beard has the limit of four fingers according to your fingers (palm length) wasalams
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Hijrah
11-24-2006, 03:02 PM
if you are a sikh, what are you doing with a book on maliki fiqh, shouldn't u be lookinmg at something more basic, isn't keeping a beard a must in sikhism
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Umar001
11-24-2006, 03:07 PM
Originally Posted by Abu Ibraheem
Salaam

Trimming means trimming it closly and not having the mostache going over the top lip, and the trimming of the beard has the limit of four fingers according to your fingers (palm length) wasalams
Actually I dont think thats the strong view, some say that trimming it is mukhrooh, disliked.

There is no recommended or specified length of the beard, because nothing to that effect has been narrated from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). What has been reported is that the beard should be left as it is.

Muslim (2344) reported that Jaabir ibn Samurah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to have a very hairy beard.”

An-Nisaa’ (5232) reported from al-Baraa’ that he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had a thick beard; according to another report, he had a bushy beard; according to another report, he had a wide beard.

Some scholars permit cutting the hair of the beard that exceeds the amount that may be grasped in the fist, because Ibn ‘Umar did this; but most of the scholars regard this as makrooh, which is more apparent because of the reports referred to above.
Source If you had read the link brother Ahmed posted on the reccomended length that is what it says :p

Grace,
The beard, some consider to be the hair on the chin, jaw bone and cheeks.

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah preserve him) said: The definition of the beard as stated by the scholars of (Arabic) language is: the hair of the face, jawbone and cheeks, in the sense that all the hair on the cheeks, jawbone and chin is part of the beard and removing any of it is counted as a sin, because the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Let your beards grow,” “Leave your beards alone,” “Let your beards increase,” “Let your beards be full.” This indicates that it is not permissible to remove anything from the beard. But the sin may vary in degree – shaving the beard is worse than shortening it, because it is a more obvious contradiction of the Sunnah.
THis is also from the same above source

Peace
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Abu Ibraheem
11-24-2006, 03:26 PM
Its a fiqh issue in which there is ikhtilaaf, therefore i am not going to dispute. I cant say Ibn Umar was wrong and did something that Allah disliked, neither can i say the scholars who said that trimming the beard to the fistfull are wrong, i may not know all the evidences but encourage that the beard be grown down to where the heart lays within the chest. Thats where we should grow the beard from and not just from the face.
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AvarAllahNoor
11-24-2006, 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by Hijrah
if you are a sikh, what are you doing with a book on maliki fiqh, shouldn't u be lookinmg at something more basic, isn't keeping a beard a must in sikhism
I like to learn about other religions

Yes it is essential in Sikhism to retain the hair. Just as Jesus, Mohammed, Krishna and Buddha and all other great Prophets did during their time.
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Grace Seeker
11-25-2006, 01:40 AM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
I like to learn about other religions

Yes it is essential in Sikhism to retain the hair. Just as Jesus, Mohammed, Krishna and Buddha and all other great Prophets did during their time.

But is that a cultural issue of a religious issue?

None of them wore pants, or used zippers, or traveled by airplane.

Just because they could have done something but didn't, how does that make it prohibitted for everyone else?
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Hijrah
11-25-2006, 01:43 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
But is that a cultural issue of a religious issue?

None of them wore pants, or used zippers, or traveled by airplane.

Just because they could have done something but didn't, how does that make it prohibitted for everyone else?
Muhammad (May Allah's Peace and Blessings be Upon Him) specifically prescribed the beard so it is a completely different matter and the Qur'aan speaks of obeisance to the him just so you know.
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AvarAllahNoor
11-28-2006, 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
But is that a cultural issue of a religious issue?

None of them wore pants, or used zippers, or traveled by airplane.

Just because they could have done something but didn't, how does that make it prohibitted for everyone else?
You use the word prohibited and the defintion for it is forbid, where am i saying it should be forbidden?
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Grace Seeker
11-29-2006, 12:23 AM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
You use the word prohibited and the defintion for it is forbid, where am i saying it should be forbidden?
So, help me to be sure I understand.

You are saying that it SHOULD be forbidden. Not that it presently actually IS forbidden.

Do I understand you correctly?
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Grace Seeker
11-29-2006, 12:30 AM
Originally Posted by Hijrah
Muhammad (May Allah's Peace and Blessings be Upon Him) specifically prescribed the beard so it is a completely different matter and the Qur'aan speaks of obeisance to the him just so you know.
And yet today, I watch on TV as Turkey’s top Islamic cleric, Religious Affairs Director Ali Bardakoglu, greeted the Pope. Bardakoglu wore only a full mustache, no beard. In fact I saw only one person out of hundreds of faces that had a beard, and this man was a member of the Pope's Vatican staff.
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Hijrah
11-29-2006, 12:33 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
And yet today, I watch on TV as Turkey’s top Islamic cleric, Religious Affairs Director Ali Bardakoglu, greeted the Pope. Bardakoglu wore only a full mustache, no beard. In fact I saw only one person out of hundreds of faces that had a beard, and this man was a member of the Pope's Vatican staff.
I'm just telling you the facts, what people do with their own facial hair is good or bad for themselves...matter of fact Muhammad (Peace and Blessings of Allah be Upon Him) said to also trim the mustache and let the beard grow..
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Grace Seeker
11-29-2006, 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by Hijrah
I'm just telling you the facts, what people do with their own facial hair is good or bad for themselves...matter of fact Muhammad (Peace and Blessings of Allah be Upon Him) said to also trim the mustache and let the beard grow..
Yes, I understand that those are the facts as you best understand them. Surely, I do not think you are either lying or making this up.

What I don't understand is how someone who I would assume to be both an authority on Islam and a pious Muslim would then in such a publical behave in a way that contradicts what you say to be the facts. Thus far, the only way I can reconcile these inherent contradictions is to conclude:

1) That Bardakoglu may be the chief Muslim cleric of Turkey, he may be the Religous Affairs Director, but in reality he is NOT a good Muslim, because he doesn't practice true Islam, but picks and chooses those area where he will be obedient to the Qur'an, and those area where he prefers to not obey.

2) That Bardakoglu may hold all of these high offices in Islam and be a respected religious leader of his country (which is 99% Muslim), but he really doesn't know Islam or he wouldn't do such a haraam thing as to shave his beard.

3) Despite the clear refutations given on this board, I have misunderstood, and Islam doesn't really care if you shave your beard or not.

4) Despite the evidence that has been cited here, it is not a uniform interpretation within the Ummah, and others who are just a pious as the brothers represented here understand these injunctions regarding shaving one's beard differently than has been presented thus far.

Thus are the options I can come up with. I have a hard time being so jaded or cynical as to believe that either options #1 or #2 are true. I might tend to think that #3 is what is happening, except that those who speak about NOT shaving the beard have written in clear and unambigous English, and the point has been reiterated by more than one poster. Thus leaving me with only option #4 as seeming to be plausible at the moment. However, perhaps you have another way to resolve this apparent contradiction? If so, I would interested in learning it.
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syilla
11-29-2006, 12:50 AM
they are person who is genetically can't produce any beard or moustache
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josein
11-29-2006, 12:54 AM
Salamaleikum so we should the beard grow. Right

Im just confused because my parents tell me to shave and I didn't feel right to shave. I didn't have a beard but I wanted to have a beard. My parents are Muslims and they don't believe that it is haraam to shave.
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AvarAllahNoor
11-29-2006, 01:55 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
So, help me to be sure I understand.

You are saying that it SHOULD be forbidden. Not that it presently actually IS forbidden.

Do I understand you correctly?
Shorning of the hair should be forbidden yes. It is in Sikhism, i was just wondering where the muslims stoood on the cutting of the beard in Islam - All seem to be in favour as instructed by Mohammed! :)
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Grace Seeker
11-29-2006, 06:07 AM
Originally Posted by syilla
they are person who is genetically can't produce any beard or moustache

So, I need to add a #5.

#5. The person does not shave, but still never grows a beard.


Thanks, I had missed that one. However, I hardly doubt that is the case with Barakoglu. He has a thick mustache, plus I thought I saw "5 o'clock shadow". Or is this a condition that happens to be true of all Turks?
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Malaikah
11-29-2006, 06:20 AM
^We cant tell you why this guy in specific shaves.

But we can tell you that many, many Muslims are ignorant on this topic and that they all think beards are only recommended and not obligatory (if it can be grown that is), whereas the reality of the situation is that it is haram to shave.
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Umar001
11-29-2006, 10:12 AM
Dear Grace Seeker,

The fact of the matter is that some Muslims take it upon themselves to say that growing the beard is not a command, as you have seen we have Muslims who even don't accept Ahadeeth, sayings of our Prophet, peace be upon him, why? Because they tend to, and this is a rule of thumb, find something they disagree with and reject it, similarly with the beard, alot of Muslims seem to read one or two Ahadeeth and say "Ah, its not mandatory!"

For example, over at a Muslim website a brother has posted this and made his 'personal' views very clear.

Prophet Muhammad ordered Muslims to grow beards. But why?

Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him ordered Muslims to grow beards, because he didn't want them to look like the Pagans. It was important back then for Muslims to look different than the Pagans for both security and cultural reasons. By making it easier for Muslims to distinguish each others easily, it would certainly enforce safety and security among them. Also, by making Muslims be different than everyone else, it would certainly help them to give up their old Pagan traditions that they were raised with, especially when they're different than everyone else.

And the thing goes on and on, but I do have to say taht this brother, I do believe is neither an thorough student of knowlege nor a scholar. So this is what happens, people take a couple of hadeeth and then make up their own mind.

Am sure you are aware that in Islam we tend to look upto scholars, not blind follow them, but since they spend their life on studying our religion, it is likely that they will have a wider picture, and unlikely that they would produce a ruling based on a small part of the picture by mistakes as me or you would do from only having seen a couple of statements.

The fact that the Prophet, peace be upon him, orders us, if I am not mistaken makes it compulsry, unless someone can provide a solid reason for it not being compulsry, this is touched upon by Student of Knowledge Yasir Qadhi, in Sciences of Fiqh, I think it is.

Personally if someone told me this, then I would just tell them that the Qu'ran says, if I am not mistaken, "Fast that you may attain taqwa" so would that mean that someone can say 'I don't have to fast today, I've got enough taqwa' or the Qu'ran says, again if I'm not mistaken, "Salah prevents wrong doing" or something like that, so is it again ok for someone to say 'Don't pray salah its only there to prevent you from wrong doing, if you don't do any other wrong then you can avoid praying it'

(someone tell me if I got the quotes wrong, cos Im quoting partially from memory)

I hope this kinda makes sense.

Eesa.
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Grace Seeker
11-30-2006, 01:17 AM
Eesa, It makes a great deal of sense. Certainly we have similar issues in Christianity. There are those who read everything literally and as divine command for all people at all times, those who read everything figuratively and as if only intended for the one specific audience who first read the letter or received the prophecy, and then all sorts of people inbetween trying to figure out which verses are meant to be applied universally to all situations and which verses are meant to be applied to particularl situations.

But, as you said, you have scholars who study this. And you have an Ummah where the community is supposed to think in one accord. This man, is the chief cleric of a country of millions of Muslims. Assuming he is both studied and pious, and I have no reason to think otherwise, give his position. Surely, he would know and keep these things if they were as true as everyone says they are here.

To me it seems that according to what you are saying, this leader of the nation of Turkey's Muslims citizenry, is doing the equivalent of eating ham for a noon meal in the middle of Ramadan. That just doesn't make sense.
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snakelegs
11-30-2006, 06:06 AM
eesa,
good post.
challenge is to find a balance between respecting and consulting scholars and following blindly.
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Grace Seeker
11-30-2006, 08:25 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
eesa,
good post.
challenge is to find a balance between respecting and consulting scholars and following blindly.
Yeah, Eesa, I'm not criticizing you for telling me what you are. I'm just trying to figure out that if what you say is true, how it is that this man could have the position that he does? And if he has the position that he does and behaves so openly as he does, how another point of view as to how he should behave could be so strongly held within what I thought was a fairly cohesive Ummah?

What you are saying, and the verses that others have shown me are so clear that there seems to be no doubt. Yet what he is doing is also just as obvious. If he was just an ordinary Turk with no influence I would just ignore it as a personal decision not reflective of Islam. But this is Turkey's chief cleric. And I only know 1 Turkish man who has any sort of beard, and that a very short and trimmed one. Is Turkey a whole nation of apostate Muslims? Perhaps this is why there is a whole thread devoted to criticizing Mustafa Kemal Ataturk?

I don't know. I am still trying to figure this out.
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Umar001
11-30-2006, 01:13 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
But, as you said, you have scholars who study this. And you have an Ummah where the community is supposed to think in one accord. This man, is the chief cleric of a country of millions of Muslims. Assuming he is both studied and pious, and I have no reason to think otherwise, give his position. Surely, he would know and keep these things if they were as true as everyone says they are here.

To me it seems that according to what you are saying, this leader of the nation of Turkey's Muslims citizenry, is doing the equivalent of eating ham for a noon meal in the middle of Ramadan. That just doesn't make sense.
Yes, at the same time you have different callibre of scholars. I don't know if you lived in the Uk, but there was a scholar and chairman of the Council of Mosques, who stated that, in my words rough interpretations, removal of the viel (hijab) is justified. Now I have yet to see any other scholars agree with this and many have spoken out agains this statement. Yet he is someone who is well known and holds high position.

With regards to the Turkish Brother, I have to admit to be honest when I saw him shaking hands with the pope, I thought that was the Orthodox Minister guy, I didn't think it was a Muslim guy. I don't know his position on the beard and I dont have any of his statements and so forth. So I don't really want to comment on him or his position in particular.


I'l try to read more on the brother and get back to you.


This is the brother right?

benoit xvi bardakoglu -

The pope is the one on the left for those who don't know.
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Umar001
11-30-2006, 01:16 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
eesa,
good post.
challenge is to find a balance between respecting and consulting scholars and following blindly.
I could not agree more, I don't know if your familier with the Madhabs in Islam, there are 4 famous ones, and some people just follow what the rulings are in one madhab no matter what!! Ubelieveable.
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AvarAllahNoor
11-30-2006, 01:33 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Eesa, It makes a great deal of sense. Certainly we have similar issues in Christianity. There are those who read everything literally and as divine command for all people at all times, those who read everything figuratively and as if only intended for the one specific audience who first read the letter or received the prophecy, and then all sorts of people inbetween trying to figure out which verses are meant to be applied universally to all situations and which verses are meant to be applied to particularl situations.

But, as you said, you have scholars who study this. And you have an Ummah where the community is supposed to think in one accord. This man, is the chief cleric of a country of millions of Muslims. Assuming he is both studied and pious, and I have no reason to think otherwise, give his position. Surely, he would know and keep these things if they were as true as everyone says they are here.

To me it seems that according to what you are saying, this leader of the nation of Turkey's Muslims citizenry, is doing the equivalent of eating ham for a noon meal in the middle of Ramadan. That just doesn't make sense.
Do you recall the story of Samson and Delilah Grace Seeker? :happy:
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Umar001
11-30-2006, 01:40 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Yeah, Eesa, I'm not criticizing you for telling me what you are. I'm just trying to figure out that if what you say is true, how it is that this man could have the position that he does? And if he has the position that he does and behaves so openly as he does, how another point of view as to how he should behave could be so strongly held within what I thought was a fairly cohesive Ummah?

What you are saying, and the verses that others have shown me are so clear that there seems to be no doubt. Yet what he is doing is also just as obvious. If he was just an ordinary Turk with no influence I would just ignore it as a personal decision not reflective of Islam. But this is Turkey's chief cleric. And I only know 1 Turkish man who has any sort of beard, and that a very short and trimmed one. Is Turkey a whole nation of apostate Muslims? Perhaps this is why there is a whole thread devoted to criticizing Mustafa Kemal Ataturk?

I don't know. I am still trying to figure this out.
The the second paragraph, No, although I do know alot of turkish people who eat pork during ramadan lol, not all of turkey is apostate.

I've digged up some other fatwa's which should show you a more 'linient' verdict, from Islamonline.net

Question: As-Salam `Alaykum Brothers, kindly tell me the fatwa on keeping beard. People tell me it is Haram, and others tell me it is a Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings upon him) and the keeper of the beard will get a reward for keeping it. Is it required to have a lengthy beard or can one take something from its width and length? Please help. Jazakum Allah khayran.

Answer: Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear brother in Islam, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake.

First of all, we would like to stress the fact that Islam calls upon all Muslims to be handsome and beautiful. It goes without saying that a Muslim should always be pure in clothes and body. This purity and cleanliness extends to one’s morals and manners. In their words and deeds, Muslims are to be pure and clean avoiding any form of vulgarity or foul speech. Commanding the purity and the cleanliness of the appearance, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, says: “Verily, Allah is Beautiful and loves beauty.”

Growing beard is a great Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). On growing a beard, it’s important for the Muslim to maintain his physical appearance. Beard should not be let grow in a way that makes a person look disgusting to people. In other words, the Muslim should make sure that his beard adds to his good looking and smartness.

Shedding more details on this issue, we’d like to cite for you the following Fatwa issued by the eminent Muslim scholar Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi:

“Ibn `Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, quoted the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) as saying: “Be distinguished from disbelievers, grow your beards, and shave your mustaches.” In the Hadith, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) related the reason for growing a beard to the necessity of distinguishing Muslims from non-Muslims. The non-Muslims referred to here are the Persians –fire worshipers - who used to shave their beards. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) wanted to teach Muslims how to be distinguished in their appearance, and their behavior.

Besides, shaving beard is an act of revolting against the nature of man, and imitating women. Thus, beard is a sign of maturity and manhood. However, growing a beard does not mean letting it stretch to an unreasonable width or length; rather, it adds to one’s handsomeness when it’s trimmed a bit or shaped from edges. This was the practice of the Salaf (righteous ancestors).

Most of our contemporary Muslims shave their beards, but this represents an act of imitating the enemies of their religion as well as ignoring the guidance of their Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) who said: “Whoever imitates a people, he is one of them.”

Many scholars made it prohibited Haram to shave beard, and they based it on the Prophet’s reasoning. To them, it is mandatory to grow the beard. It was not narrated ever about the righteous companions, and the Salaf (Successors) ignored this matter.

However, some contemporary scholars made it lawful to shave the beard under the pressure of current conditions. They further stated that growing a beard by the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was a normal action but not a ritual one.

In reality, the Prophet’s insistence on growing a beard is not a matter of tradition but his deliberate insistence on the signs of distinction between Muslims and non-Muslims. Ibn Taimiyah stated that being different from non-believers was what the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) meant as imitating them would lead to companionship, loyalty, and internal love which, on its turn, would lead to external love, and this has been proven right nowadays.

Imam Ibn Taimiyah proceeded to say that, in many places in the Qur’an and the Sunnah, the importance of being distinctive from non-believers is reiterated given the fact that imitating them would also lead to behavioral imitation, a matter that is prohibited Islamically.

Based on the above mentioned, we see that there are three views on shaving the beard. First, shaving beard is prohibited. This is the view of Ibn Taimyiah. Second: it is Makruh (reprehensible), that is `Iyad’s view. The Third view is that there is no problem in shaving the beard. This view is held by many contemporary scholars.

It seems to me that the closest of these three views is the one that deems shaving beard as Makruh. As the stated reason for growing the beard is to be different from the non-believers, it is similar to the matter of dyeing gray hair in order to be distinct from the Jews and Christians; it is known that some of the Companions of the Prophet did not dye their gray hair, signifying that it was commendable rather than obligatory. Similarly, growing the beard may be regarded as commendable but not obligatory, and, accordingly, shaving it would be classified as Makruh rather than Haram. It is true that none of the Companions was known to have shaved his beard. Perhaps there was no need to shave, and perhaps growing the beard was a custom among them."

That can be found here

Also,

Question: Dear scholars, As-Salamu `alaykum. What is Islam’s view on growing a beard? Jazakum Allah khayran.

Answer: Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear brother in Islam, we commend your keenness on getting your self well-acquainted with Islam and its teachings, which is the way Allah has chosen for the welfare of His servants.

As for your question, we’d like to state that growing beard is a great Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). However, Muslims differed regarding its ruling some of them state that it is mandatory and shaving it is forbidden while others view that it is an optional Sunnah and hence there is no harm in shaving it. What to be stressed here is that beard in Islam does not have the same religious significance as that of the other prescribed rituals. Thus it is important for us to recognize that we are not allowed to ostracize men who do not have beards nor are we to question their basic faith.

Elaborating on this we’d like to cite for you the following Fatwa on the ruling of growing beard issued by Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and an Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, who states:

"Growing a beard is considered a great Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). It is also one of the great legacies inherited from all of the previous prophets and messengers of Allah. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) ordered us: “Grow your beards and trim or clip the moustaches.” In light of such precedents, most of the past scholars and Imams go as far as declaring that growing a beard is obligatory on males.

What we stated above makes it clear that no Muslim should take the issue of the beard lightly. At the same time, we must also state categorically that one should not conclude from what has been said earlier that growing a beard in Islam has the same religious significance as that of the other prescribed rituals. This is definitely not the case. Thus it is important for us to recognize that we are not allowed to ostracize men who do not have beards nor are we to question their basic faith.

Since beard is undoubtedly a great Sunnah, every Muslim male should try to practice this Sunnah according to the best of his ability. Allah does not take us to task for what is beyond our power or ability. We are told to fear Allah as best as we can."

Excerpted, with slight modifications, from: www.muslims.ca

And this can be found here


I hope that kinda helps you to see that some people say it's sunnah, I don;t know why they say that, since it's a commandment, it would be nice to know what their view for saying 'its sunnah' is, there are parts of the fatwas which I don't know where they derive things from. Pretty upsetting.

Eesa
Reply

Grace Seeker
11-30-2006, 02:14 PM
Eesa

Thank-you for your hard work and research. I see now that I was wrong in thinking that there was uniformity in everything within the Ummah. You have your differences in interpretations just like us Christians do. That doesn't bother me, I can respect that when people are sincerely looking for the truth, not simply to justify their personal opinions. It appears that the issue of the beard might be one of these things. Given all the different looks you will see among Christians, this is really a minor thing.

As regard this part of what your found out:
In reality, the Prophet’s insistence on growing a beard is not a matter of tradition but his deliberate insistence on the signs of distinction between Muslims and non-Muslims. Ibn Taimiyah stated that being different from non-believers was what the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) meant as imitating them would lead to companionship, loyalty, and internal love which, on its turn, would lead to external love, and this has been proven right nowadays.
It might interest you to know that there is a joke among Christian pastors that all youth ministers must have a beard and play the guitar. It's not true that they do, of course (I never learned to play the guitar), but it is amazing how often you will find that to be the case. So, look out, in growing beards, you may still end up looking like us non-believers, and worse, not just the laity, but like the clergy. hahahaha


btw, I didn't really think that Turkey was an apostate country. I know enough Turks to know better. That part was a bit of an exaggeration.
Reply

schoolmaster54
11-30-2006, 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Yes, at the same time you have different callibre of scholars. I don't know if you lived in the Uk, but there was a scholar and chairman of the Council of Mosques, who stated that, in my words rough interpretations, removal of the viel (hijab) is justified. Now I have yet to see any other scholars agree with this and many have spoken out agains this statement. Yet he is someone who is well known and holds high position.

With regards to the Turkish Brother, I have to admit to be honest when I saw him shaking hands with the pope, I thought that was the Orthodox Minister guy, I didn't think it was a Muslim guy. I don't know his position on the beard and I dont have any of his statements and so forth. So I don't really want to comment on him or his position in particular.


I'l try to read more on the brother and get back to you.


This is the brother right?

wwwislamicboardcom -

The pope is the one on the left for those who don't know.

Dear brother,
He is the Head of Religious Fairs in Turkey. Yes, people in Turkey are 99% are muslims but we don't have an Islamic State. That brothet can't speak or behave as a muslim represantative freely. He is an officer of our non-Islamic state. Do you understand me? Try to understand Turkish people. He is a sincere muslim scholar. He was an academician on Islam at a university in Turkey. He's really a sincere muslim.
Reply

Grace Seeker
11-30-2006, 06:39 PM
Merhaba Schoolmaster, are you from Turkey?

Selam.
Reply

Umar001
11-30-2006, 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by schoolmaster54
Dear brother,
He is the Head of Religious Fairs in Turkey. Yes, people in Turkey are 99% are muslims but we don't have an Islamic State. That brothet can't speak or behave as a muslim represantative freely. He is an officer of our non-Islamic state. Do you understand me? Try to understand Turkish people. He is a sincere muslim scholar. He was an academician on Islam at a university in Turkey. He's really a sincere muslim.
Assalamu Aleykum Akhi,

First I want you to know I love you for the sake of Allah, and I am very happy that you have been patient with me. May Allah reward you with Jannah!!

I don't know what is happening in Turkey, I have had turkish friends who claimed to be muslims but I don't know, but I still love them, this brother, I love him for the sake of Allah and I'd do anything for him Insha'Allah. That was why I said I wouldnt say anything since I don't know him.

Just wondering, can you tell me his name so I can read about him, and his views of Islam?

Eesa. :)
Reply

Hijrah
11-30-2006, 07:57 PM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Dear Grace Seeker,

The fact of the matter is that some Muslims take it upon themselves to say that growing the beard is not a command, as you have seen we have Muslims who even don't accept Ahadeeth, sayings of our Prophet, peace be upon him, why? Because they tend to, and this is a rule of thumb, find something they disagree with and reject it, similarly with the beard, alot of Muslims seem to read one or two Ahadeeth and say "Ah, its not mandatory!"

For example, over at a Muslim website a brother has posted this and made his 'personal' views very clear.

Prophet Muhammad ordered Muslims to grow beards. But why?

Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him ordered Muslims to grow beards, because he didn't want them to look like the Pagans. It was important back then for Muslims to look different than the Pagans for both security and cultural reasons. By making it easier for Muslims to distinguish each others easily, it would certainly enforce safety and security among them. Also, by making Muslims be different than everyone else, it would certainly help them to give up their old Pagan traditions that they were raised with, especially when they're different than everyone else.

And the thing goes on and on, but I do have to say taht this brother, I do believe is neither an thorough student of knowlege nor a scholar. So this is what happens, people take a couple of hadeeth and then make up their own mind.

Am sure you are aware that in Islam we tend to look upto scholars, not blind follow them, but since they spend their life on studying our religion, it is likely that they will have a wider picture, and unlikely that they would produce a ruling based on a small part of the picture by mistakes as me or you would do from only having seen a couple of statements.

The fact that the Prophet, peace be upon him, orders us, if I am not mistaken makes it compulsry, unless someone can provide a solid reason for it not being compulsry, this is touched upon by Student of Knowledge Yasir Qadhi, in Sciences of Fiqh, I think it is.

Personally if someone told me this, then I would just tell them that the Qu'ran says, if I am not mistaken, "Fast that you may attain taqwa" so would that mean that someone can say 'I don't have to fast today, I've got enough taqwa' or the Qu'ran says, again if I'm not mistaken, "Salah prevents wrong doing" or something like that, so is it again ok for someone to say 'Don't pray salah its only there to prevent you from wrong doing, if you don't do any other wrong then you can avoid praying it'

(someone tell me if I got the quotes wrong, cos Im quoting partially from memory)

I hope this kinda makes sense.

Eesa.
It also had to do with differentiating from women, the last Prophet himself said that shaving it all was for effeminate men
Reply

schoolmaster54
11-30-2006, 10:32 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Merhaba Schoolmaster, are you from Turkey?

Selam.

Yes, I am. I live in Ankara. What about you, bro?
Reply

schoolmaster54
11-30-2006, 10:38 PM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Assalamu Aleykum Akhi,

First I want you to know I love you for the sake of Allah, and I am very happy that you have been patient with me. May Allah reward you with Jannah!!

I don't know what is happening in Turkey, I have had turkish friends who claimed to be muslims but I don't know, but I still love them, this brother, I love him for the sake of Allah and I'd do anything for him Insha'Allah. That was why I said I wouldnt say anything since I don't know him.

Just wondering, can you tell me his name so I can read about him, and his views of Islam?

Eesa. :)
NATIONAL12.01.2006 Friday - ISTANBUL 00:35
Papal Visit won't Heal Wounds
By Reuters, Cihan News Agency, Rome
Thursday, November 16, 2006
zaman.com


bardakoglu b - An upcoming visit to Turkey by Pope XVI Benedict will not stop Muslims from feeling wounded by his remarks on Islam, said Ali Bardakoglu, the top religious authority in Turkey, in an interview with Italian daily La Stampa.
Bardakoglu will meet with the pope during his visit to Turkey from Nov. 28 to Dec. 1.

Bardakoglu rebutted rumors of possible flaws in security for the Pope, but admitted the psychological effect of recent protests.


“This visit will not solve all problems but it will be a good step toward further dialogue,” said Bardakoglu. “Peace is possible to destroy in a second but it takes years and years to reestablish.”

Muslim reaction against the pope’s remarks on Sept. 12 forced him to apologize, but he never put his regret in exact terms.


Although Bardakoglu expressed his approval of the pope’s regret, he reiterated that the remarks were “unacceptable.”


“It makes no difference whether deplorable remarks about Islam came from someone who is not a cleric, or from someone religious, of from someone important. What matters is to make up for such remarks…. But all this is in the past now. We’re looking ahead,” said Bardakoglu.


Afterwards the pope tried to improve his image by saying that he meant his words to be an explanation for a link between religion and reason, not between religion and violence.

Bardakoglu responded to the papal statements saying that they could lead to academic misinterpretation of the situation: “Islam does not disregard reason. There is evidence in the Quran that God takes into account the role of reason.”


Ali Bardakoğlu

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Jump to: navigation, search
Ali Bardakoğlu is the current president of Religious Affairs of Turkey, also known as Diyanet Isleri in Turkish. The president of this institution is the highest Islamic authority in Turkey.

[edit] Background

Ali Bardakoğlu was born in 1952 in Tosyar in the province of Kastamonu. He has been the President of Diyanet Isleri since May 2003. In 1975 he completed his studies of law at the Istanbul Marmara University and gained Bachelor title at this faculty. Later he became assistant for Islamic law at the High Islamic Institute in Kayseri. In 1982, he earned his PhD in Islamic studies at the Atatürk University and taught as Assistant professor at the theology faculty of the Erciyes University. From 1991 to 1992 he lived in the United Kingdom and in 1994 he visited the United States for the first time.
He is well known in Turkey and Europe as a moderate Islamic leader. He announced, in 2005, two women from Diyanet Isleri as vice muftis (i.e. professional jurists who interpret Islamic law and counselor who help local Muslims on religious issues) for the mosques of the Turkish cities of Kayseri and Istanbul. In February 2006 he participated as an honored guest in the opening ceremony of a Protestant church in Alanya.
He met with Pope Benedict XVI in November 28th 2006 to help ease the tension between the Pope and radical Muslims in Turkey.
He speaks Turkish, Arabic and English. He is married and has three children.

[edit] External links

30pxAllahgreensvg 2 - This biographical article about a person notable in connection with Islam is a stub. You can help Wikipedia by expanding it.
30pxFlag of Turkeysvg 2 - This Turkish biographical article is a stub. You can help Wikipedia by expanding it.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Bardako%C4%9Flu"
Reply

Umar001
11-30-2006, 11:31 PM
Assalamu Aleykum Brother,

If you ever come across, the brothers' reasons for not wearing a beard do tell me them.

Eesa.


EDIT:
Also I've just come across:

‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab rejected the testimony of the person who plucked his beard.

Islam Q and A http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=1189&ln=eng
Reply

Grace Seeker
12-01-2006, 02:15 AM
Originally Posted by schoolmaster54
Yes, I am. I live in Ankara. What about you, bro?
I live in USA. My daughter is from a little town near Duzce, and attends university in Istanbul.
Reply

- Qatada -
12-01-2006, 12:11 PM
Hi Grace Seeker. :)


Realise that islaams fiqh issues (issues of understanding) are open to differences of opinions, so long as it doesn't contradict the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him.) We know that even the companions of the Messenger of Allaah would differ on some aspects, for instance we know that once the Messenger of Allaah said to the muslims that they have to pray the 'asr [when the sun is declining] prayer when they reach Quraydha; some companions understood this to be that they have to pray when they reach that location even if they got late, some felt that if they reached their late - they may miss the prayer so they prayed in between the journey before reaching the location.



From there you can already see that the companions had a difference of fiqh (understanding) of what the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said. They used their understanding from what they had heard from the Messenger of Allaah to derive their own opinion [because they were knowledgable enough to derive this opinion. - i.e. scholars.]



Once they reached the place, they asked the Messenger of Allaah who was correct from among them, the Messenger of Allaah never disapproved none of them because they used their proof from the Messenger of Allaah and their best understanding of it.


From here you see how they have a difference of opinion, with their evidences [from the Qur'an and Authentic sayings of the Prophet.]





We also know that there will be different understandings of the texts in different situations. I.e. A person living in a dry desert is more likely to perform tayammum (dry ablution) compared to a person who lives in a rainforest. So the Authentic ahadith are open to interpretation. This could depend on the environment/location, or even the time - i.e. comparing todays issues to 1400years ago in matters of technology etc.


Therefore we can have a difference of opinion on fiqh so long as we have strong evidences, but we should choose the one with the most evidence [from the Qur'an and Authentic Sunnah] by asking a knowledgable scholar.


However, we should have a firm belief in matters of aqeedah (faith/belief etc.)



Allaah Almighty knows best.



Peace.
Reply

Isaac
12-01-2006, 03:15 PM
Salam brother. Slightly off topic, but i see in your post you have a link fro harlow masjid. I heard they were raising funds for the masjid, but did not know it was complete. How long has it been, and do you live in harlow?
Reply

Grace Seeker
12-01-2006, 08:30 PM
Fi_Sabilillah,

Thank-you. That was a helpful response.

Your illustration from the lives of the Companions is very instructive. I will try to remember that.
Reply

Abu Ibraheem
12-01-2006, 08:32 PM
a brother told me today that in the Malaki madhab you are allowed to trim the beard right down to the chin of your chinny chin chin. Does anybody know what the :vomit: he is talking about?
Reply

- Qatada -
12-02-2006, 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by Isaac
Salam brother. Slightly off topic, but i see in your post you have a link fro harlow masjid. I heard they were raising funds for the masjid, but did not know it was complete. How long has it been, and do you live in harlow?

:wasalamex


I'm not sure akhi :) its just a link to lectures, thats all i know.. Allaahu a'lam.



:salamext:
Reply

schoolmaster54
12-03-2006, 07:11 AM
Dear brothers and sisters,
shaving beard is haram but in this world, it is obligatory to get a job to shave beard especially to be an officer in Turkey. Indeed, I don't like shaving. A man looks more natural with beard. He is some womanish without beard. It is like wearing a woman's dress for a man. When I'm off and on holidays, I never shave. Try it, you will look more mannish with beard and mustache. The mustache is a symbol for a man in Turkey. Turkish muslim soldiers (Yeniçeri: New Chery) during the Ottoman Empire. They looked magnificient and macabre for Islam enemies. It is necessary for a man, I think. (!!!!!!????????)

What do you think about it?

next? to have mustache???????????????????????
Reply

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