Did the Prophet(saw) say this..?

[youngsister]

:sl: "If I were to order anyone to prostrate oneself to anyone else, I would order a wife to prostrate herself to her husband." :w:

[Malaikah]

:sl:

Yes sis, but only as a way to highlight the seriousness of the duties that the wife has towards her husbands, and the rights of the husband over the wife. :)

It in no way is saying that women should prostrate, it is purely metaphoric.

[vpb]

Don't take hadiths as u see it, that's why we need scholars so they analyse what's the meaning of it.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

The entire Hadith is this:

‘Abdullah ibn Abee Awfaa (ra) said : "When Mu’aadh came from Shaam he prostrated before the Prophet (sallallaahu ‘alaihi wasallam) so he said: What is this O Mu’aadh? He replied : I came to Shaam and found them prostrating to their bishops and patriarchs, so I wished to do that before you. So Allah’s Messenger (sallallaahu ‘alaihi wasallam) said : If I were to order anyone to prostrate to anyone other than Allah I would have ordered the woman to prostrate to her husband. By the One in Whose Hand is the soul of Muhammad, a woman does not fulfil the rights of her Lord until she fulfils the rights of her husband - even if he were to ask her for herself whilst she were upon the saddle of a camel she should not prevent him."
SAHEEH : Ibn Maajah (1853), Ibn Hibbaan (1390)

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[Dhulqarnaeen]

:sl: "If I were to order anyone to prostrate oneself to anyone else, I would order a wife to prostrate herself to her husband." :w:

:sl:
Thats explaining the first priority in a wifes life is her husband, cause he is her jannah and taking care his family is jihad for you

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

Here are some Ahadith which will perhaps raise the morale of the sisters:

"If a woman prays regularly five times a day, fasts the month (of Ramadan), guards her chastity and obeys her husband, it will be said to her: Enter Paradise from whichever gate you wish."
(Ibn Hibban)

The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said: "The best among you is the one who is best to his wife" (Related by Ibn Hibban) in another version it is the one who is most kind to his wife.

It is reported that a man came to 'Umar ibn Al-Khattab raa to complain about his wife's ill-temper. While he was waiting for 'Umar to come out of his house, he heard 'Umar's wife scolding him and 'Umar quietly listening to her, and not answering her back. The man turned around and started walking away, muttering to himself: "If that is the case with 'Umar, the leader of the believers, who is famous for his uprighteness and toughness, then what about poor me?!" At that moment, 'Umar came out of his house and saw the man walking away. He called him and said, "What is it you want of me, O man?" The man replied: "O leader of the believers, I came to complain to you about my wife's bad-temper and how she nags me. Then I heard your wife doing the same to you, so I turned around, muttering to myself, 'If that is the situation of the leader of the believers, then what about me?'" 'Umar replied, "O my brother, I bear with her because of her rights over me. She cooks my food, bakes my bread, washes my clothes, breast-feeds my child...and yet none of these are her duty;* and then she is a comfort to my heart and keeps me away from forbidden deeds. Consequently, I bear with her." The man said, "It is the same with me, O leader of the believers." 'Umar said: "Then, O my brother, be patient with her, indeed this life is short. (Adh-Dhahabi, Al-Kabâ'ir 194)

Also see,
http://www.islamicboard.com/510170-post4.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/428746-post12.html

[Chuck]

:sl:

The entire Hadith is this:

‘Abdullah ibn Abee Awfaa (ra) said : "When Mu’aadh came from Shaam he prostrated before the Prophet (sallallaahu ‘alaihi wasallam) so he said: What is this O Mu’aadh? He replied : I came to Shaam and found them prostrating to their bishops and patriarchs, so I wished to do that before you. So Allah’s Messenger (sallallaahu ‘alaihi wasallam) said : If I were to order anyone to prostrate to anyone other than Allah I would have ordered the woman to prostrate to her husband. By the One in Whose Hand is the soul of Muhammad, a woman does not fulfil the rights of her Lord until she fulfils the rights of her husband - even if he were to ask her for herself whilst she were upon the saddle of a camel she should not prevent him."
SAHEEH : Ibn Maajah (1853), Ibn Hibbaan (1390)

Something doesn't seem right with that hadith. A guy did something like similar to the biggest and the only reply prophet (pbuh) made was a comment about husband. I can't imagine prophet (pbuh) face not going red over this person's actions, so I've doubts over this hadith. This hadith is similar to a hadith stated by Shiites about Ali (ra) successor-ship. The story in these hadiths doesn't fit prophet's (pbuh) character.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

Something doesn't seem right with that hadith.

What does'nt seem right with it? It is Sahih so there is no doubt whatsoever in it's authencity.

A guy did something like similar to the biggest and the only reply prophet (pbuh) made was a comment about husband. I can't imagine prophet (pbuh) face not going red over this person's actions, so I've doubts over this hadith. This hadith is similar to a hadith stated by Shiites about Ali (ra) successor-ship. The story in these hadiths doesn't fit prophet's (pbuh) character.

The doubts are only inside of you. The Hadith is sahih so there remains no reason to doubt it. The Messenger did not say, continue. He stopped him and said "If I were to order...." That was the way of the Prophet, he would always tell people more than what they asked, and that is among the qualities of Da'ee. Therefore, even if the issue here was not Husband/Wife relations, he went on to inform people of what it is. And this hadith fits in perfectly with the Prophet's character. There is no mention of what his facial expressions were, so there is no need to even contemplate it.

[Chuck]

What does'nt seem right with it?

It takes the issue of worshiping a person too lightly.

For example:

It is related that 'Abdullah was said to say, "The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, made a distribution and a man said, 'By Allah, this a distribution by which the face of Allah is not desired.' I went to inform the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace!' He became angry so that I could see the anger in his face. Then he said, 'May Allah have mercy on Musa! He was abused more than this and he was patient.'"
(Sahih Bukhari 3224)

Ok the prophet (pbuh) got angry over the abuse to moses (pbuh) but he didn't get angry over borderline idolatry?

The Hadith is sahih so there remains no reason to doubt it.

There are many sahih hadiths that are doubtful - Allah never promised to protect sunnah or hadith. Here is an example, excerpt of hadith #3223 from sahih bukhari:

....One day he retired alone and placed his garment on a stone and then bathed. When he finished, he went to his clothes to take them, and the stone ran off with it. Musa took a stick and went after the stone, 'My clothes, O stone! My clothes, O stone!' until he reached a group of the tribe of Israel and they saw him naked and the best of what Allah has created and He cleared him of what they were saying. The stone stopped and he took his clothes and put them on and began to hit the stone with his stick. By Allah, the stone still has three, four or five marks from the beating....

I doubt it the above hadith is entirely true.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

It takes the issue of worshiping a person too lightly.

For example:

It is related that 'Abdullah was said to say, "The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, made a distribution and a man said, 'By Allah, this a distribution by which the face of Allah is not desired.' I went to inform the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace!' He became angry so that I could see the anger in his face. Then he said, 'May Allah have mercy on Musa! He was abused more than this and he was patient.'"
(Sahih Bukhari 3224)

Ok the prophet (pbuh) got angry over the abuse to moses (pbuh) but he didn't get angry over borderline idolatry?

There are different times the Prophet was different. He knew his companions (Muadh ibn Jabal) was not doing it in a wasy of shirk. We know there are two different types of Sajdah, one of Worship (only to Allah) and Respect (forbidden for us, but permissible for Ummahs before us, Story of Surah Yusuf). The one that Saad did was obviously of respect, that is why the Prophet did not get 'red' and go angry. To say that the Companion did a Sajdah of Worship is to say the Companion disbelieved and the Prophet allowed that to happen.! Audhubillah.

There are many sahih hadiths that are doubtful - Allah never promised to protect sunnah or hadith. Here is an example, excerpt of hadith #3223 from sahih bukhari:

....One day he retired alone and placed his garment on a stone and then bathed. When he finished, he went to his clothes to take them, and the stone ran off with it. Musa took a stick and went after the stone, 'My clothes, O stone! My clothes, O stone!' until he reached a group of the tribe of Israel and they saw him naked and the best of what Allah has created and He cleared him of what they were saying. The stone stopped and he took his clothes and put them on and began to hit the stone with his stick. By Allah, the stone still has three, four or five marks from the beating....

I doubt it the above hadith is entirely true.

This is your own desires that are causing you to doubt. When you know that the Prophet's performed Miricales, and these miricales happened in different ways, then there is no need that one doubt something when one sees something he does not understand. And this particular incident is referred to in the Quran in Surah Ahzab:

69. O you who believe! Be not like those who annoyed Mûsa (Moses), but Allâh cleared him of that which they alleged, and he was honourable before Allâh.

Ibn Kathir says about this verse:

Al-Bukhari recorded in the Book of Hadiths about the Prophets, that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said:

...

Musa, peace be upon him, was a shy and modest man who would never show anything of his skin because of his shyness. Some of the Children of Israel annoyed him by saying: "He only keeps himself covered because of some defect in his skin, either leprosy or scrotal hernia or some other defect.'' Allah, may He be glorified, wanted to clear Musa, peace be upon him, of what they were saying. One day Musa was alone, so he took off his garment and put it on a rock, then he took a bath. When he had finished, he turned back to pick up his garment, but the rock moved away, taking his garment with it. Musa picked up his stick and chased the rock, saying, "My garment, O rock! My garment, O rock!'' Until he reached a group of the Children of Israel, who saw him naked and found that he was the best of those whom Allah had created. Thus he was cleared of what they had said about him. Then the rock stood still, so he took his garment and put it on. He started hitting the rock with his stick, and by Allah, the marks of that beating were left on the rock, three or four or five. This is what is referred to in the Ayah: (O you who believe! Be not like those who annoyed Musa, but Allah cleared him of that which they alleged, and he was honorable before Allah.))

I suggest you read that thread through and remove this hadith doubting mentality for indeed Allah has preserved what he sent down to the Prophet and the Prophet was sent a revelation other than the Quran.

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ct-hadith.html

:w:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
Br. Ahmed gave the correct explanation - this was the same type of prostration of respect that we saw in the time of Yusuf (as). A noble companion like Mu'aadh ibn Jabal would never commit shirk after being one of the torchbearers of the call to Tawheed!

In our sharî'ah, both prostration of worship and prostration of respect have been declared harâm, even though only the first is shirk.

As for the hadith, it is in no way against sisters. Look at the following fatwâ from Shaykh Sâmî Al-Mâjid, a professor at Al-Imâm University [Riyadh, KSA]:

Question: I have a question about the status of men as protectors and maintainers. I earn more money than my husband, so I provide the majority of the financial support for the family and for him. Yet, he says that he still gets the final word and because of the hadith the prophet said that he would have commanded women to bow to men, he says that I have to serve him almost as much as one serves God.

You do not have to serve this husband. He has failed to support you and your children. Allah says: "And they have rights similar to those against them in a just manner." [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 228]

The saying that you have to serve him like a slave is false. Allah and His Messenger (peace be upon him) never requested that. The saying of the Prophet (peace be upon him): "If I was ordering someone to prostrate to someone..." is only to show the great rights that the husband has with respect to his wife.

A wife's attendance to her husband and his well being at home is to be met with the husband's spending on his wife. The wife is not obligated to spend anything of her own money on the household.

If the wife spends on her household and her husband out of her generosity and good spirit, then how can her husband meet such good will with little regard, or worse denial, and mistreatment?

The rank given to the husband of being the protector and maintainer of women does not mean that he can take actions without consulting his wife in the issues that concern her.

Allah says: "Who (conduct) their affairs by mutual consultation" [Sûrah al-Shûrâ: 38]

He says: "And consult them in affairs." [Sûrah Âl-`Imrân: 159]

In fact, we should follow and emulate what the Prophet (peace be upon him) taught us.

Yes, he is the one who said: "Were I to order someone to prostrate to someone else, then I would ask the woman to prostate to her husband so that she may appreciate his right with respect to her."

He is also the one who said: "The best among you are the best to their families. And I am the best of you to his family." [Sunan al-Tirmidhî (3895)] and: "I bequeath upon you to treat women well." [Sunan al-Tirmidhî (1163)]

And Allah knows best.

[MuSe]

Dawud :: Book 11 : Hadith 2135
Narrated Qays ibn Sa'd:

I went to al-Hirah and saw them (the people) prostrating themselves before a satrap of theirs, so I said: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) has most right to have prostration made before him. When I came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him), I said: I went to al-Hirah and saw them prostrating themselves before a satrap of theirs, but you have most right, Apostle of Allah, to have (people) prostrating themselves before you. He said: Tell me , if you were to pass my grave, would you prostrate yourself before it? I said: No. He then said: Do not do so. If I were to command anyone to make prostration before another I would command women to prostrate themselves before their husbands, because of the special right over them given to husbands by Allah.

[atha]

Assalam-u-Alaikum sister

The prophet did say this. Where the brothers/imams never forget to mention this hadith to specify the rights a husband has over his wife, they always forget to mention the following hadith to specify the importance of a wife to a husband and hence they might come out as biased towards ladies to begin with. I heard this hadith from Imam Yusuf Esteves during one of his lectures on Status of Women on Islam. According to Imam Yusuf, there is another hadith which says that in the hereafter, the man will prostrate to his wife who has been good to him in this life. When she will ask him why he prostrated, he would say that I found you so beautiful that I mistook you for God. Anyways. The point is from a girl's perspective it might feel a bit offensive to hear someone say oh prophet said something like if i were to ask a person to bow to another person, then it will be a woman bowing to her husband. i mean even if its a metaphore, at first hearing it sounds offensive. But as a muslim, we must try to look at the bigger picture here. Allah granted men more rights over their wives because he gave them more responsibility. Some guys like to boast that they have greater rights over their women and that shows that they are better. That's not the right way to look at it. Its a double cutting sword. See the man has more responsibility and its by the virtue of these responsibilities he has more rights. If he doesn't fulfill these responsibilities properly, then of course he will sin and perhaps not deserve these rights. I know that a good woman will always try to fulfill the rights of a bad husband as well and leave the justice in Allah's hands but that doesn't mean doing the wrong thing on the husband's commands. Allah knows well.

Oh another way to look at it this men have more right over women is this way. The reason this is so is because of women's capabilities. So women out there, know your strenghts. Women are usually underestimated by men just b/c we don't possess the physical strenght to match that of a man. I know several patriarchal societies use this notion to strenghthen the idea of the superiority of a man over a woman. But its not the case. I take Taikwando classes and from what I have learned, women tend to more ferocious than men b/c of their stronger instincts to protect their loved ones. Men tend to be physically stronger than women for sure but that doesn't mean that they are more powerful. Power is made up of more than physical strength. It combines technique, stamina, speed and strength. Seriously, I have seen very strong guys throwing weak kicks b/c they don't know the technique or didn't have enough speed. So basically, don't let patriarchial people/socieities brain wash you into believing any of the junk that women are weaker than men. Sure women are weaker but only in certain aspects and conversely men are weaker in certain aspects as well. For instance, most women tend to get emotional and might make a wrong decision based on emotions. This doesn't include women like judges etc. who are trained to be rational and logical. In contrast, a man may hold his emotions back and make the right decision. And he doesn't need any training for that. :-) The communications skills of men are lower than that of the women. I think the sexes are opposites to each other not to emphasize the superiority of one sex or the inferiority of another but to show that they are complementary. Yin and Yang. Light and Dark. For a husband and wife, I see them as two pieces of a broken amulet that fit together perfectly. So, husband and wife can learn a lot from each other. And with the rights thing, its Allah's will so let it be and not worry about it too much. Its there b/c its the right thing given the constitution of males and females. Remember to look at the bigger picture here. :-)

I hope this made sense b/c I tried hard to make it easy to comprehend.


Take care
Assalam-u-Alaikum

[Chuck]

:sl:

:sl:

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ct-hadith.html

:w:

I don't completely reject hadith, I just more careful with the hadiths even if they are classified as sahih.
:w:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
On the subject of Muslim women in Islam:
http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...lim-women.html

I heard this hadith from Imam Yusuf Esteves during one of his lectures on Status of Women on Islam. According to Imam Yusuf, there is another hadith which says that in the hereafter, the man will prostrate to his wife who has been good to him in this life. When she will ask him why he prostrated, he would say that I found you so beautiful that I mistook you for God.

Can you give the reference for this hadith or at least the link to the talk in which Yusuf Estes mentions it? I've never heard of this and the last part sounds like a blatant fabrication, but I'll give you the opportunity to post a reference if you have it, inshaa'Allah.

Here are some authentic hadith on the position of women in paradise:
http://www.islamicboard.com/595288-post63.html

:w:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:


I don't completely reject hadith, I just more careful with the hadiths even if they are classified as sahih.
:w:

:sl: brother,
The careful one is not the one who recklessly assumes that he has enough knowledge to overturn the intensive ingestigations of over a millenia of Islamic scholars of hadith, and just declare sahih hadith fabricated if they don't make sense to him. The careful one is rather the one who reads the hadith and then has the humility to refrain from passing a judgement and to consult the scholars to understand the explanation and the interpretation and the context of the hadith.

If you just reject things haphazardly on a superficial reading, then your methods would have caused you to reject many ayaat of the Qur'an! But just like the Qur'an when you don't understand an issue you investigate the matter deeper and consult the people of knowledge, you have to do the same with the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).

:w:

[Dhulqarnaeen]

:sl:


I don't completely reject hadith, I just more careful with the hadiths even if they are classified as sahih.
:w:

:sl:
Yaa akhee, tawadhu, who are we saying we can do research about this hadith or that hadith doubtfull or not :uuh: Masha Allah, do U feel qualified enough to doubt hadith which included sahih by ulama ahli hadith? Wallahu yahdik. Its not that easy to say this hadith doubtful or that hadith 50% doubtfull, where do U know? Do U have the capability to do this? Do U have the knowledge? Have you learned mustalah Al Hadith? Do U know siwak / the typical sign of words from Rasulullah which its been said that Rasulullah always say short words but full of meaning.
Do U know Arabic language that good till you can doubt a hadith? Do U feel wise enough that you can doubt the truth in hadith Rasulullah? We are nothing akhee, and we leave one bussiness to the expert, especially when we talk about Islam, then we may not talk if we have no prove form Quran and hadith. And also our explanation may not contradict the explanation of our whole ulama salaf. You gotta learn how to be waro'....I think we all have to learn more.

[ashara]

:sl: brother,
The careful one is not the one who recklessly assumes that he has enough knowledge to overturn the intensive ingestigations of over a millenia of Islamic scholars of hadith, and just declare sahih hadith fabricated if they don't make sense to him. The careful one is rather the one who reads the hadith and then has the humility to refrain from passing a judgement and to consult the scholars to understand the explanation and the interpretation and the context of the hadith.

If you just reject things haphazardly on a superficial reading, then your methods would have caused you to reject many ayaat of the Qur'an! But just like the Qur'an when you don't understand an issue you investigate the matter deeper and consult the people of knowledge, you have to do the same with the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).

:w:

i agree that it's dangerous to reject haphazardly on superficial reading. but i do not think all those who are " just more careful with the hadiths even if they are classified as sahih" quoting bro Chuck, does that. i absolutely agree that our predecessors tafsir and knowledge is important. but hadith 'sahih' as we see now is a "compilation" made long after the Prohet s.a.w has passed away. and human falliability is a factor that cannot be swept aside - whether by misquoting the Prophet s.a.w or making up things. i just think it's just as "safe" to question it's authenticity (and trying to find an answer) as it is to justify a particular hadith with various understanding and interpretations as can be seen in this thread. i guess all i'm saying is that Quran is perfect. hadith is not. we cannot brush aside it's authenticity based on it's acceptance by knowledgeable men (who we know are fellow bros/sis who do not have 'perfect' knowledge). i am sure u can agree with me that there is no fault in one group trying to understand the context of a hadith on the assumption it's an absolutely accurate account, while another group tries to study whether the assumption itself is acceptable for that particular hadith. i do not know enough to question the assumption, but is it wrong to voice it out, hoping that someone can provide an answer?

[Snowflake]

Here's another version of the same hadith..

Narrated Aisha
Once when Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) was with a number of the Emigrants and Helpers a camel came and prostrated itself before him. Thereupon his companions said, "Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) beasts and TREES prostrate themselves before you, but we have the greatest right to do so." He replied, "Worship your Lord and honour your brother. If I were to order anyone to prostrate himself before another, I should order a woman to prostrate herself before her husband. If he were to order her to convey stones from a yellow mountain to a black one, or from a black mountain to a white one, it would be incumbent on her to do so." Ahmad transmitted it. (Hadith of al-Tirmidhi, Number 963– ALIM CD-ROM Version)

If the saying about prostating before a husband is a metaphor, what about the wife's obedience on carrying the stones from one mountain to another if the husband orders? Metaphors can be taken in any sense. Wouldn't something like this encourage men to abuse their authority? According to the Quran men and women are equal, except the husband has an advantage of authority as the maintainer. Isn't this hadith giving the message that a wife can on no account disobey her husband, not even in non-religious matters?

According to Imam Yusuf, there is another hadith which says that in the hereafter, the man will prostrate to his wife who has been good to him in this life. When she will ask him why he prostrated, he would say that I found you so beautiful that I mistook you for God.

Na udhu billah!! That's totally rediculous to even think that people of Jannah will commit shirk. :heated:

I was going to ask this in the 'Why do some people completely reject hadith' thread, but it's been closed. Is this classed as an authentic hadith? Na udhu Billah!!!

Bukhari (97/36) also wrote:

To prove His identity, God opened His legs and showed the prophet His thigh.

[youngsister]

:sl: Subxannallah, How can people of Jannah commit shirk?!!!!
I truly dont believe that at all!
Anyways thanks for the replies brothers and sisters!:)
:w:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

i agree that it's dangerous to reject haphazardly on superficial reading. but i do not think all those who are " just more careful with the hadiths even if they are classified as sahih" quoting bro Chuck, does that. i absolutely agree that our predecessors tafsir and knowledge is important. but hadith 'sahih' as we see now is a "compilation" made long after the Prohet s.a.w has passed away. and human falliability is a factor that cannot be swept aside - whether by misquoting the Prophet s.a.w or making up things. i just think it's just as "safe" to question it's authenticity (and trying to find an answer) as it is to justify a particular hadith with various understanding and interpretations as can be seen in this thread. i guess all i'm saying is that Quran is perfect. hadith is not. we cannot brush aside it's authenticity based on it's acceptance by knowledgeable men (who we know are fellow bros/sis who do not have 'perfect' knowledge)

:sl:
All of these are myths and misconceptions which were debunked here:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...ection=Hadeeth
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...tml#post331417

Wouldn't something like this encourage men to abuse their authority?

Not if it is taken with all the other teachings of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh; read what I posted earlier.

Is this classed as an authentic hadith? Na udhu Billah!!!

No. This is not found anywhere in Bukhari, nor any of the authentic books of hadith. This is another lie concocted by the hadith-rejectors who audaciously attribute it to Bukhari.

:w:

[Umar001]

It takes the issue of worshiping a person too lightly.

For example:

It is related that 'Abdullah was said to say, "The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, made a distribution and a man said, 'By Allah, this a distribution by which the face of Allah is not desired.' I went to inform the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace!' He became angry so that I could see the anger in his face. Then he said, 'May Allah have mercy on Musa! He was abused more than this and he was patient.'"
(Sahih Bukhari 3224)

Ok the prophet (pbuh) got angry over the abuse to moses (pbuh) but he didn't get angry over borderline idolatry?

Where does this say that the Prophet, peace be upon him, got angry over the abuse of Musa??

Read it properly!

..a man said, 'By Allah, this a distribution by which the face of Allah is not desired.'

This is why he was angry, because someone accused him of not doing it for the sake of Allah!!

[Snowflake]

Ansar Al-'Adl;595627]:sl:
Not if it is taken with all the other teachings of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh; read what I posted earlier.

:sl: , SubhanAllah that's true. But not all men read other teachings. They just pick and choose what suits them. If only the Quran was read as much as Bukhari, at least even then men would be aware of women's rights.

No. This is not found anywhere in Bukhari, nor any of the authentic books of hadith. This is another lie concocted by the hadith-rejectors who audaciously attribute it to Bukhari.

I've got hold of a copy of sahih al-bukhari. So will be cross-checking everything in the future. From what I've read in it so far, there's nothing that worries me.

:w:

[Umar001]

:sl: , SubhanAllah that's true. But not all men read other teachings. They just pick and choose what suits them. If only the Quran was read as much as Bukhari, at least even then men would be aware of women's rights.

You know sister, to be honest with you, any decent man would know not to upset or bully or put hardships on anyone, I wasn't muslim but I have always wanted to treat my wife in a good way, I mean its a normal decent thing, someone who is in your care, your wife, someone who wants to be cared about, how could anyone mistreat such a person, I mean even with wife beating and all the other stuff, in alot of cases men don't need the Qu'ran to know that they shouldn't beat their wifes because she didn't cook dinner or any stupid stuff like that, men know that their wife is a human and feels humiliated and ashamed if they are bullied, any decent guy would know that, but alot of guys who do treat women bad, they would turn a blind eye to prohibitions in alot of cases even if they read it again and again.

[Snowflake]

You know sister, to be honest with you, any decent man would know not to upset or bully or put hardships on anyone, I wasn't muslim but I have always wanted to treat my wife in a good way, I mean its a normal decent thing, someone who is in your care, your wife, someone who wants to be cared about, how could anyone mistreat such a person, I mean even with wife beating and all the other stuff, in alot of cases men don't need the Qu'ran to know that they shouldn't beat their wifes because she didn't cook dinner or any stupid stuff like that, men know that their wife is a human and feels humiliated and ashamed if they are bullied, any decent guy would know that, but alot of guys who do treat women bad, they would turn a blind eye to prohibitions in alot of cases even if they read it again and again.

Alhumdulillah, there are men who are decent enough to know how to treat their wives and not just because religion says so. But I'll explain what I mean.

Even decent men can abuse their wives rights. Not because they don't know that religion disallows it, but because their culture allows it. A decent man might not beat his wife for not cooking dinner but he will still regard her as an unfit wife. But he will feel insulted that his wife hadn't shown him enough respect by making his dinner when she knew he'd be home to eat it. He may be decent in many ways but he won't refrain from giving her slap in the face if she raised her voice to him.


I speak of the cultural beliefs of a large number of people in Pakistan. Men's right are stressed over and over and passed on from generation to generation by elders. Even by women themselves. because that is what they have been taught.

And as our relgious leaders are men, they pick out the hadith and verses that confirm men's rights, but conceal women's rights. You know why? Because giving women their rights would clash with their culture. A culture in which they like to keep women oppressed. These hadith are never questioned -people follow blindly. The majority of people don't even know about woman's right to inheritance, or the right's of a wife e.g. maintenance etc..

That's what I mean that instead of following hadith, (which many have not even read themselves, but heard through others) if people were to read and understand the Quran, there'd learn the whole truth. And not just what has been picked for them to hear.

When it comes to rights of inheritance and authority over a wife, even the most decent men will abuse a woman's rights. There are people who think the son is the sole inheritor of wealth - again because hadith of women's rights are concealed or not given enough importance and because it fits in with their culture. To give a daughter a share means her in-laws will get it. So that right is denied for cultural reasons.

By reading the Quran themselves, men won't fall into any misconception. There's no danger of hearing only what others have wanted them to hear. Cultural beliefs will be questioned and I doubt any man will beat his wife or abuse her rights, if understands the Quran.

As a new muslim, probably raised in the west, I don't expect you to have much knowledge of muslims who've mixed culture with religion. But the truth is bro that in places like that most men are only decent as long as they hold all the power. And in their own words, imaams are the most corrupt people in society. :-\

:w:

[Chuck]

:sl:,

The careful one is not the one who recklessly assumes that he has enough knowledge to overturn the intensive ingestigations of over a millenia of Islamic scholars of hadith, and just declare sahih hadith fabricated if they don't make sense to him. The careful one is rather the one who reads the hadith and then has the humility to refrain from passing a judgement and to consult the scholars to understand the explanation and the interpretation and the context of the hadith.

Be careful is not a matter of assuming more knowledge than scholars or passing judgments. It is a matter of being careful from potential risks.

If you just reject things haphazardly on a superficial reading, then your methods would have caused you to reject many ayaat of the Qur'an! But just like the Qur'an when you don't understand an issue you investigate the matter deeper and consult the people of knowledge, you have to do the same with the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).

Having doubts and being careful doesn't equal rejection. Comparison with Quran is not correct because, Quran is transmitted, compiled, and protected by infallible and al powerful God and through infallible channel; on the other hand, hadiths, in general, were transmitted and collected by fallible channels and people.

Yaa akhee, tawadhu, who are we saying we can do research about this hadith or that hadith doubtfull or not Masha Allah, do U feel qualified enough to doubt hadith which included sahih by ulama ahli hadith? Wallahu yahdik. Its not that easy to say this hadith doubtful or that hadith 50% doubtfull, where do U know? Do U have the capability to do this? Do U have the knowledge? Have you learned mustalah Al Hadith? Do U know siwak / the typical sign of words from Rasulullah which its been said that Rasulullah always say short words but full of meaning.
Do U know Arabic language that good till you can doubt a hadith? Do U feel wise enough that you can doubt the truth in hadith Rasulullah? We are nothing akhee, and we leave one bussiness to the expert, especially when we talk about Islam, then we may not talk if we have no prove form Quran and hadith. And also our explanation may not contradict the explanation of our whole ulama salaf. You gotta learn how to be waro'....I think we all have to learn more.

I don't feel qualified enough, but a layman has to assess at some point if he/she has to make decision or follow works of scholars. Allah has given me intelligence and if was the person to take things on face value than I had not been muslim today.

Where does this say that the Prophet, peace be upon him, got angry over the abuse of Musa??

Read it properly!

..a man said, 'By Allah, this a distribution by which the face of Allah is not desired.'
This is why he was angry, because someone accused him of not doing it for the sake of Allah!!

I stand corrected.

:w:

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

Having doubts and being careful doesn't equal rejection. Comparison with Quran is not correct because, Quran is transmitted, compiled, and protected by infallible and al powerful God and through infallible channel; on the other hand, hadiths, in general, were transmitted and collected by fallible channels and people.

And what was Allah's method in preserving His Book?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:

Be careful is not a matter of assuming more knowledge than scholars or passing judgments. It is a matter of being careful from potential risks.

How can you properly assess any risks when you jump to questioning the authenticity of the hadith every time it doesn't make sense to you? What you should be doing instead is consulting the books of scholars and you would be amazed to see how the explanations reconcile the contradictions you imagined in the hadith. To see a classic example of this, read the explanation I provided for the hadith of the she-monkey which is often raised as a so-called case of absurdity in hadith literature:
http://www.islamicboard.com/217237-post84.html

Brother, believe me, I have already seen ALL of the hadiths raised by anti-islamists and hadith-rejectors to throw doubt on the authenticity of the hadith compilations and confuse new muslim reverts into adopting this rejectionist mentality, but alhamdulilah, through consulting with scholarly sources I have seen that not a single one of these allegations is unanswered. Every single one has been effectively debunked and all doubts quashed. I know that the knee-jerk reaction of new muslims and uneducated muslims alike is to immediately fall back to questioning the hadith's authenticity when they are presented with an allegation, because that is the most convenient argument and the mind wants a fast and easy way to resolve doubt. The mind does not like to be in a troubled state, so rather than waiting for a scholarly explanation, it jumps to rejecting the matter altogether, which is the wrong decision. As Imam Ibn Taymiyyah said when you are presented with allegations you should not allow all these doubts to penetrate your heart, but instead you should examine them as though there is some glass barrier between you and them, protecting you from their harm and providing you the opportunity to take an objective perspective.

Having doubts and being careful doesn't equal rejection.

What you are doing does equal rejecting in many cases, and it is a rejection that is unfounded and unnecessary, and I know since I have spent an enormous amont of time debating anti-islamists from all different backgrounds and refuting allegations based on certain ahadith.

Comparison with Quran is not correct because, Quran is transmitted, compiled, and protected by infallible and al powerful God and through infallible channel; on the other hand, hadiths, in general, were transmitted and collected by fallible channels and people.

Brother, we have answered all these statements and more in the thread linked earlier on hadith rejection. The very same people who preserved the Qur'an preserved the hadith. The very same people who compiled the Qur'an, compiled the hadith. The very same people who transmitted the Qur'an, transmitted the hadith. The fact that the Qur'an can only be fully implemented and understood with recourse to the Sunnah, necessitates that Allah's promise of protection extends to the Sunnah as well.

Since we are just repeating things already mentioned in the hadith-rejection thread, if you intend to post on this subject again, you must first read through the thread because virtually every claim has already been answered:
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...tml#post331417
:w:

[Umar001]

Alhumdulillah, there are men who are decent enough to know how to treat their wives and not just because religion says so. But I'll explain what I mean.

Even decent men can abuse their wives rights. Not because they don't know that religion disallows it, but because their culture allows it. A decent man might not beat his wife for not cooking dinner but he will still regard her as an unfit wife. But he will feel insulted that his wife hadn't shown him enough respect by making his dinner when she knew he'd be home to eat it. He may be decent in many ways but he won't refrain from giving her slap in the face if she raised her voice to him.


I speak of the cultural beliefs of a large number of people in Pakistan. Men's right are stressed over and over and passed on from generation to generation by elders. Even by women themselves. because that is what they have been taught.

And as our relgious leaders are men, they pick out the hadith and verses that confirm men's rights, but conceal women's rights. You know why? Because giving women their rights would clash with their culture. A culture in which they like to keep women oppressed. These hadith are never questioned -people follow blindly. The majority of people don't even know about woman's right to inheritance, or the right's of a wife e.g. maintenance etc..

That's what I mean that instead of following hadith, (which many have not even read themselves, but heard through others) if people were to read and understand the Quran, there'd learn the whole truth. And not just what has been picked for them to hear.

When it comes to rights of inheritance and authority over a wife, even the most decent men will abuse a woman's rights. There are people who think the son is the sole inheritor of wealth - again because hadith of women's rights are concealed or not given enough importance and because it fits in with their culture. To give a daughter a share means her in-laws will get it. So that right is denied for cultural reasons.

By reading the Quran themselves, men won't fall into any misconception. There's no danger of hearing only what others have wanted them to hear. Cultural beliefs will be questioned and I doubt any man will beat his wife or abuse her rights, if understands the Quran.

As a new muslim, probably raised in the west, I don't expect you to have much knowledge of muslims who've mixed culture with religion. But the truth is bro that in places like that most men are only decent as long as they hold all the power. And in their own words, imaams are the most corrupt people in society. :-\

:w:

Oh, well I wasn't including cultural muslim withing the 'decent men' bracket, personally if a person choses culture over islam I dont see how he or she can be decent. But this whole cooking and inheritance thing, I dont know, I mean most people, I know, non-Muslims, would be more ok with things like this, this is what I meant by decent men, the people you have described sound terrible, and yes I have come across stories like those. I don't know, I need to be more patient, but it does make my blood boil.