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New_Muslim
12-10-2006, 08:58 PM
:sl:

On another forum I go on occasionally a Christian on there stated that the Qur'an does not say the bible has been corrupted, and thus no reason for Islam. Can some one give me information as to where it is stated the Bible has been corrupted. Thank you

:w:
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Skillganon
12-10-2006, 09:07 PM
Assalamu alaikum.

First you must learn when to debate and when to call it off. You have to be careful when debating or discussing and choose your word carefully.

Here is an excerpt from Islamonline: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1123996016232

Check the link for other useful links on bottom of the page.


Thank you for your important question.

The answer is simple, but unfortunately widely unrecognized by Christians and - more so - by Muslims. Let us first ask:

“Is the current Christian Bible really the word of God?”

The Bible is a huge collection of “human” writings, 38 (+9 disputed) books comprising the Old Testament and 20 (+7 disputed) books of the New Testament. The Old Testament assortment includes books of history, proverbs, myths, legislation …etc, representing the popular literature of the Israelites. They were composed by many scribes, several centuries after the Prophet Moses, peace be upon him.

Similarly, the New Testament embodies the Gospels, four different biographies of the Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him, written by Matthews, Mark, Luke and John, whose identities are widely disputed. In addition, the New Testament contains the epistles of Paul, Peter and John. This is as well as the Acts - also due to Paul or Luke - and the Visions of John.

So, none of the Bible books can be claimed to be the word of God. It was the Nicea Council in the fourth century after Christ, who selectively sanctified these books to be “holy”, from among hundreds of other writings of the earlier Christians. While admitting the human authorship of these books, the churches claim and teach - without proof - that these human writings were “inspired” by God.

However, neither of the Bible authors themselves claimed, or probably even imagined that their books would ever be “holy”. Read for example:

“Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things …, Even as they delivered them unto us …; It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus ...” (Luke 1:1-4)

“The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.” (Matthews 1:1)

“The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach.” (Acts 1:1)

“These be the words which Moses spake unto all Israel on this side Jordan in the wilderness …” (Deuteronomy1:1)

“Now after the death of Moses, the servant of the Lord, it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Joshua the son of Nun …” (Joshua 1:1)

“Now after the death of Joshua it came to pass, that the children of Israel …” (1 Judges 1:1)

“Now it came to pass in the days when the judges ruled …” (Ruth 1:1)

“Now it came to pass after the death of Saul, when David …” (2 Samuel 1:1)

“Now king David was old and stricken in years ...” (1 Kings 1:1)

“Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia …” (Ezra 1:1)

“Now it came to pass in the days of Ahasuerus …” (Esther 1:1)

“Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year …” (Ezkiel 1:1)

Could any of these books be words of God, or rather typical human anecdotes and historical accounts?

Add to these facts the countless contradictions and obvious mistakes in the Bible text. As few examples, compare the following pairs:

“And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.” (2 Samuel:24:1V)

Please compare with:

“And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. (1Chr 21:1)

Also read:

“Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.” (2 Samuel 6:23)

Please compare with:

“But the king took …; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for …” (2 Samuel 21:8)

Then read:

“These be the names of the mighty men whom David had: … he lift up his spear against eight hundred, whom he slew at one time.” (2 Samuel 23:8)

Compare with:

“And this is the number of the mighty men whom David had: … he lifted up his spear against three hundred slain by him at one time. (1 Chronicles 11:11)

Also read:

“But the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew of the Syrians seven thousand men which fought in chariots, and forty thousand footmen, and killed Shophach the captain of the host.” (1 Chronicles 19:18)

Compare with:

“And the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew the men of seven hundred chariots of the Syrians, and forty thousand horsemen, and Samuelote Shobach the captain of their host, who died there. (2 Samuel 10:18)

Further, no rational mind could accept the false charges and shameless references to the great prophets, peace and blessings be upon them all, such as:

Noah: getting drunk and naked in front of his sons. See Genesis 9: 20-24.

Aaron: making a golden calf to worship. See Exodus 32: 3-4.

Solomon: worshiping false gods, to please his large harem. See 1 Kings 11: 9-10.

David: committing adultery. See 2 Samuel 11: 4-5.

Lot: committing incest with his two daughters. See Genesis 19: 31-36.
Could such texts be inspired by God!

It can thus be concluded that the available Bible has nothing to do with the original Injeel of Jesus or Torah of Moses, both of which have disappeared, except in as much as traces of their texts might be part of the few sayings attributed to Moses and Jesus in the Bible. Still, it is difficult to decide which of these sayings are divine revelations and which are the teachings of the respective prophet.

Hence, it is an over-simplification to say that the available Bible is the word of God, corrupted by Man. Rather, it is almost A-Z a human text. Why then should not God allow the corruption of what His creatures invented?

Allah says in the Qur’an what means:
*{So woe to [the ones] who write the Book with their hands; thereafter they say, “This is from [the providence of] Allah.” That they may trade it for a little price; So, woe to those for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they have earned.}* (Al-Baqarah 2: 79)

*{And who is more unjust than he who has fabricated against Allah a lie, or has said: “to me it has been revealed” and nothing has been revealed to him. And who has said: “I will send down the like of what Allah has sent down.”}*(Al-An`am 6: 93)

I hope my answer is satisfactory. Thank you again for your question and please keep in touch.
Reply

Umar001
12-11-2006, 12:53 AM
Tell us what he says, better yet, invite him here. :)
Reply

Abu Ibraheem
12-11-2006, 01:01 AM
..........Both the Bible and the Qur’aan claim to be the word of G-d. However both “revelations” contradict each other at nearly every point. For example the Bible teaches that G-d consists of three different personalities whilst the Qur’aan maintains that G-d is one.
The Bible teaches that Jesus was crucified whilst the Qur’aan teaches Jesus never died not was he killed. One of these two books is lying, but which? How can we find out which one is false and which one is truth?

..........If we had two books, book number one and book number two and book number one said that “Satan is an evil person and he must be rejected,” then, on the other hand book number two which said “Satan is a good, truthful being.” We already know that Satan is an enemy of G-d, so which one would be more logical to believe. Book number one that says Satan is an evil reject, or book number two which says Satan is a truthful blessed soul. This is where the science of logical reason comes into play.

Firstly let us examine the Qur’aan. The Qur’aan says in Sura an-Nahl (The Bee) verse 98:


“When you recite the Qur’aan, seek refuge in G-d from the rejected Satan, indeed he has no power over those who believe…”


..........It is clear from this verse in the Qur’aan that the Muslims are commanded to seek refuge in G-d from Satan before any commencement of reading the Qur’aan. I should imagine that Satan loves to be praised, if the Qur’aan was indeed a scripture from Satan, no such command would appear.

..........The Qur’aan goes further to even say that Satan is the greatest enemy to man (Qur'aan S.7:22 and S.12:5 and S.43:62) Therefore, given the facts, it is impossible for the Qur’aan to be from Satan and can be from no other than G-d Himself.

..........Secondly let us now analyse the Bible. We are told in the New Testament, Titus 1:2, that G-d can not lie, however, we find in 2 Thessalonians 2:11 That G-d deludes to people to believe deceit. Even Prophet Jeremiah complains of being deceived (Jeremiah 20:7).

..........Furthermore, according to the Bible G-d lies to Adam by telling him that he will die the very day he eats the fruit, however, when Adam ate from the tree he did not day in that day. In fact Adam died much later having lived nine hundred and thirty years according to Genesis 5:5.

..........Moreover, according to the Bible, Satan tells the truth when he told Eve “you shall surely not die… but you will be as gods, knowing good and evil.” (Genesis 3:4-5). According to the Qur’aan Satan is portrayed as the ultimate deceiver (Qur’aan S.4:120; S.14:22; 17:64) whilst Allaah, the true universal G-d is upheld as the truthful one (Qur’aan S.4:122).

..........It is apparent from the evidence that the Bible and the Qur’aan contradict each other. Should we believe in a G-d that lies and a truthful Satan or a truthful G-d that rejects Satan as a outright liar? Should we follow a book that claims Satan is the G-d of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4) or Allaah the true universal G-d, Lord of the universe? (Qur’aan S.1:1).
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Grace Seeker
12-13-2006, 11:03 AM
Originally Posted by New_Muslim
:sl:

On another forum I go on occasionally a Christian on there stated that the Qur'an does not say the bible has been corrupted, and thus no reason for Islam. Can some one give me information as to where it is stated the Bible has been corrupted. Thank you

:w:
While I disagree with some of the assertions by those before me in this thread, and though I think they are major errors regarding a proper understanding of the Bible, as to your question those differences really are irrelvant.

The Bible does differ dramatically from the Qu'ran, so that as a point of faith it is not possible to accept them both as the word of God, for they contradict each other on several significant occassions. Thus, if one accepts that the Qu'ran is indeed the inspired word of God revealed to Muhammed (pbuh), then one cannot hold that the Bible is without corruption. It must be. For if the Bible is uncorrupted and is in fact entirely true, then the Qu'ran must certainly be false at those places where it disagrees with the Bible.

This is a situation where it is either one or the other, it cannot be both that are the word of God. Now, if some of our athiest friends get on this thread, they might suggest that neither is true. But no one can logically hold that both are true. So, the Qu'ran does not have to actually say that the Bible is corrupted. It is a corrollary of accepting the incorruptible nature of the Qu'ran that all books that disagree with it must be in error.

Of course, I hold that the premise of the divine nature of the Qu'ran is false to begin with. I thinkit is probably just as human of a book as it has been suggested that the Bible is. I am not saying that Mohammed was not necessarily a prophet. But I suspect there was a lot more human agency involved than would be acceptable to believe within the Islamic community.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
12-13-2006, 11:43 AM
:salamext:

a religion in which the priests are worshipped and these priests are the ones who make that which is unlawful lawful such as pigs. How are they worshipped? because they are given that authority by the christian people to change the commandments of God, thus making them a partner to God. Only Allaah swt has the right to deem halal and haram !

in this same manner the priests changed the bible and many people confess that much of it is not Gods or even Jesus's words rather it is the saints and priests words !

if im incorrect please forgive me !
Reply

Iwant2no2
12-13-2006, 11:26 PM
Originally Posted by New_Muslim
:sl:

On another forum I go on occasionally a Christian on there stated that the Qur'an does not say the bible has been corrupted, and thus no reason for Islam. Can some one give me information as to where it is stated the Bible has been corrupted. Thank you

:w:
I think if everyone should read a book called "Myths and Secrets" by Barbara G. Walker. It's a encyclopedia of ancient religious history. This book was written back in 1983, meaning long before Internet was around to try an twist the minds of people like ourselves.

The book was awesomely researched for 20 years before published. It's a scholar's goldmine of history of the Church, and Bible. Reseaching religous history will really surprise you....

Take care... :peace:
Reply

Ismile
12-13-2006, 11:38 PM
The bible had been edited many times hard to know.
Reply

Umar001
12-14-2006, 03:51 AM
Oh I just realised, the Qu'ran says it in Surah 2:79 there are articles on this on the refutation page!
Reply

Muslim Woman
12-14-2006, 02:31 PM
I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

Listen to the holy Quran---the Final Testament
Recitation by Shiekh Saad Al-Ghamdhi of Saudi Arabia
http://www.islamworld.net/fathiha.au

whole Quran recitation: http://quran.jalisi.com

&&&

Learn about Bible & Quran from our 2 revert brothers ( ex-Christian missionaries ) :happy: :)




http://www.islamtomorrow.com/bible


"Who Wrote the Bible" - (excerpts from book by the same title)
Jewish Scholar of Old Testament - Richard E. Friedman



Click "Bible Contradictions?" - Are There Contradictions - Why? Jim Meritt
Click Secret Gospel of Mark(?) Unbelieveable? - But it's true - Bible Scholars Confirm it!


Click Muhammad(?) in the Bible? Old Testament says "makhmaddim" & New Testament says "paravklhto" (comforter) Check it out for yourself" [still in progress -more coming]



Click "Beginnings" (How Did the Bible Come About?) [still in progress -more coming, God Willing]
Click "How Did 1 God - Become 3?" Arianism Vs. Council of Nicaea (Church History)


By Brother John Raymond, (A Catholic Priest)


Click "Council of Nicaea - Trinity Accepted in 325 AD"
- From Catholic Church website
Reply

Grace Seeker
12-14-2006, 07:52 PM
Muslim Woman, thank you for the listing above. In reading it I find it much easier to see where many of the objections of some on this board come from. It was very useful for helping me to understand how others are thinking.
Reply

Muslim Woman
12-17-2006, 01:34 AM
Salaam/peace to u & all


Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Muslim Woman, thank you for the listing above. In reading it I find it much easier to see where many of the objections of some on this board come from. It was very useful for helping me to understand how others are thinking.

u may read this book....interesting :p

THE TRUE MESSAGE OF JESUS CHRIST

BY

DR. BILAL PHILIPS

(St. David’s College, University of Wales,U.K.)



http://www.al-sunnah.com/true_message_of_jesus.htm

Shock survey

Of Anglican bishops



LONDON: More than half of England’s Anglican bishops say Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was God, according to a survey published today.

The poll of 31 of England’s 39 bishops shows that many of them think that Christ’s miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible.


Only 11 of the bishops insisted that Christians must regard Christ as both God and man, while 19 said it was sufficient to regard Jesus as “God’s supreme agent”. One declined to give a definite opinion.

The poll was carried out by London Weekend Television’s weekly religion show, Credo.



“DAILY NEWS” 25/6/84

&&&&
Reply

Muslim Woman
12-17-2006, 01:49 AM
Originally Posted by New_Muslim
:sl:

On another forum I go on occasionally a Christian on there stated that the Qur'an does not say the bible has been corrupted, ........:w:




I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)


&&&
pl. visit links to read the full answers.


Has the Bible Been Tampered With?

related link:

Q. Why Do Muslims Quote from the Bible although It Is Corrupted?




........ Bible contains two main sections: the Old Testament and the New Testament. The Old Testament is recognized by Jews and Christians both.


Jews calls it the Hebrew Bible or TANAK. But their Bible has 24 books and some books have two parts thus a total of 39 books. Protestants also have 39 books but in a different order.




The same Old Testament of Catholics has 46 books, while Eastern Orthodox Christians have 51 books in their Old Testament. Jewish version of the Bible is based on the Hebrew Masoretic text while Christians generally use the Greek (Septuagint) and Latin (Vulgate) versions as the basis of their Old Testaments. Each group also has variations in the texts of their books as well as in the number of verses.

The New Testament is accepted by Christians only.




It has 27 books: four Gospels and then other books and letters of various writers known as apostles. But Catholics add some verses in the Gospels that are not accepted by the Protestants. The Catholics as well as the Eastern Orthodox Christians accept some books that are not accepted by the Protestants.

As far as the ancient manuscripts of the Bible are concerned, it is known to the Biblical scholars that most of the manuscripts came from the fourth century CE down.



The manuscripts that are discovered are mostly partial and their texts differ from each other considerably.


M. M. Parvis in the Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible (vol. 4, pp. 594-595) says, "The New Testament is now known, in whole or in part, in nearly five thousand Greek manuscripts alone.

Every one of these handwritten copies differ from the other one… It has been estimated that these manuscripts and quotations differ among themselves between 150,000 and 250,000 times. The actual figure is, perhaps, much higher.




A study of 150 Greek manuscripts of the Gospel of Luke has revealed more than 30,000 different readings… It is safe to say that there is not one sentence in the New Testament in which the manuscripts' tradition is wholly uniform."



You can also read:

Why Muslims Believe in the Bible

Why Do Muslims Quote from the Bible although It Is Corrupted?

Is the Bible the Word of God?

What Islam says about the Bible

&&&&&
Reply

IzakHalevas
12-17-2006, 04:43 AM
I would answer all these misquoted, mistranslated, taken out of context lies, that many readers who have no knowledge on their hands about Judaism or anything pertaining to the Torah/Tanakh think are facts. But in reality we both know that it would not change anything.

If you want to believe that the Torah is corrupted, me proving your utterly wrong, will not tamper with your faith. No amount of proof will convince anyone of you, so why wate around 2 to 3 hours of my time?
Reply

Umar001
12-17-2006, 04:57 AM
Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
I would answer all these misquoted, mistranslated, taken out of context lies, that many readers who have no knowledge on their hands about Judaism or anything pertaining to the Torah/Tanakh think are facts. But in reality we both know that it would not change anything.

If you want to believe that the Torah is corrupted, me proving your utterly wrong, will not tamper with your faith. No amount of proof will convince anyone of you, so why wate around 2 to 3 hours of my time?
It would be interesting to see your view.

But its upto you. ;)
Reply

Muslim Woman
12-17-2006, 01:34 PM
Salaam/peace;

Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
......
If you want to believe that the Torah is corrupted, me proving your utterly wrong, will not tamper with your faith. No amount of proof will convince anyone of you, so why wate around 2 to 3 hours of my time?
It's not that i will change my faith...Insha Allah no , never but i want to know about other holy books. So, pl. don't think that it will waste ur time.....i m sure it will be interesting to discuss about talmud. So, shall we ask ?
Reply

Grace Seeker
12-17-2006, 01:46 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
IQ. Why Do Muslims Quote from the Bible although It Is Corrupted?
Your post only gave reasons you think the Bible is corruptued, it did not at all address WHY Muslims quote from it.

Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
If you want to believe that the Torah is corrupted, me proving your utterly wrong, will not tamper with your faith. No amount of proof will convince anyone of you, so why wate around 2 to 3 hours of my time?
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
It would be interesting to see your view.

But its upto you. ;)
I agree it would be interesting to see Izak's view. However, I respect his right to decide what is and is not worthy of his time. I do have a question regarding the concept of corruption?



Which is the corruption?

1) To tell the story of Abraham's willingness to sacrifce his son Isaac, but to have a few of the texts which tell this story "disagree" with each other regarding the vowel points or the whether when you translate it into English a word should carry the article "a" vs. the article "the". Is that corruption?

or

2) To tell basically the same story, have every existing copy of that story identical to each other, but tell the story as if it were Ishmael that Abraham was to sacrifice? Is that the corruption?


I think the change from truth to fiction is the bigger corruption.
Obviously we disagree as to which is truth and which is fiction.
Reply

Muslim Woman
12-17-2006, 01:55 PM
Salaam/peace;


Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/peace;



It's not that i will change my faith...Insha Allah no , never but i want to know about other holy books. So, pl. don't think that it will waste ur time.....i m sure it will be interesting to discuss about talmud. So, shall we ask ?


Ok, let me start asking questions....is that ok ? :p

I hope, it won't take u many hours to reply.



1. Duet 13:13-17 Certain men....saying , Let us go and serve other gods.....shalt surely smite the inhabitansts of the city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly......and the cattle ''

---regarding Duet , do Jews & Christians need to kill all citizens including kids ? Why kill cattle ?????


2. Can Jews marry 3 years old girl ?


3. Ismail (p) was First born son of Prophet Abraham (p). So, Why Jews believe Palestine is only for them & Muslims have no right ?
Reply

Muslim Woman
12-17-2006, 02:00 PM
Salaam;

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Your post only gave reasons you think the Bible is corruptued, it did not at all address WHY Muslims quote from it.



I agree it would be interesting to see Izak's view. However, I respect his right to decide what is and is not worthy of his time. I do have a question regarding the concept of corruption?



Which is the corruption?

1) To tell the story of Abraham's willingness to sacrifce his son Isaac, but to have a few of the texts which tell this story "disagree" with each other regarding the vowel points or the whether when you translate it into English a word should carry the article "a" vs. the article "the". Is that corruption?

or

2) To tell basically the same story, have every existing copy of that story identical to each other, but tell the story as if it were Ishmael that Abraham was to sacrifice? Is that the corruption?


I think the change from truth to fiction is the bigger corruption.
Obviously we disagree as to which is truth and which is fiction.

I m not sure what u mean by change from truth to fiction. What is the Truth ?

If really Isaac (p) was the son of sacrifice , then why Jews & Christians don't celebrate /remember the holy occasion ? It's only the Muslims who all around the world remember the incident.
Reply

IzakHalevas
12-17-2006, 02:53 PM
m sure it will be interesting to discuss about talmud.
The great Talmud has been slandered so much to be thought of as a rascist book which it is not.

Go to this site to see every refutation to against the people who say the Talmud is rascist.

http://t.trafficmp.com/b.t/i18723/94735808/
Reply

Skillganon
12-17-2006, 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
Go to this site to see every refutation to against the people who say the Talmud is rascist.

http://t.trafficmp.com/b.t/i18723/94735808/
Hey just to notify you the Link provided is an advertisement.
Reply

Muslim Woman
12-18-2006, 12:19 AM
Salaam/peace;
Originally Posted by Skillganon
Hey just to notify you the Link provided is an advertisement.

yap , only one ad came :giggling:
Reply

Muslim Woman
12-18-2006, 01:33 AM
Salaam/peace;

Grace Seeker: Your post only gave reasons you think the Bible is corrupted, it did not at all address WHY Muslims quote from it.


Why Do Muslims Quote from the Bible although It Is Corrupted?



pl. visit link to read the full answer.


.... In the Jewish and Christian or any other scripture, there are some parts that talk about moral behavior and wisdom, or call people to work for perfection and cooperation with others.


Such passages we accept and benefit from and share with others as a common heritage and a source of comfort and solace.



Islam commands Muslims to make use of anything that helps them attain a better life and not to feel hesitant to accept wisdom from other people.



When Muslim scholars quote or refer to the Jewish or Christian scriptures, they are trying to find similarities or common grounds between nations in order to find ways of cooperation and coexistence."



You can also read:

Domains of Muslim-Christian Cooperation

Why Muslims Believe in the Bible

Has the Bible Been Tampered With?

Is the Bible the Word of God?



&&

Did mankind tamper with the Old Testament

http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/l...say/ch2.3.html

"How can you say we (the Jews) are wise and the law of the Lord is with us, when in fact the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie?"

Jeremiah 8:8 (Revised Standard Version)


"And because of their (the Jews) breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts. They change words from their places and have abandoned a good part of the message that was sent to them. And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of them.


But forgive them and overlook (their misdeed). Verily! Allah loves the kindly."

The noble Qur'an, Al-Maidah(5):13.

Is the Jewish Bible or Qur'an anti-Semitic ?

http://jews-for-allah.org/the-Jewish...ti-semitic.htm
Reply

Umar001
12-18-2006, 01:26 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I agree it would be interesting to see Izak's view. However, I respect his right to decide what is and is not worthy of his time. I do have a question regarding the concept of corruption?
I agree, it is upto the individual to choose, though I havent seen any other 'article' or 'post' as such, so I mean I wouldnt mind a link noone has to waste hours and hours.


Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Which is the corruption?

1) To tell the story of Abraham's willingness to sacrifce his son Isaac, but to have a few of the texts which tell this story "disagree" with each other regarding the vowel points or the whether when you translate it into English a word should carry the article "a" vs. the article "the". Is that corruption?

or

2) To tell basically the same story, have every existing copy of that story identical to each other, but tell the story as if it were Ishmael that Abraham was to sacrifice? Is that the corruption?


I think the change from truth to fiction is the bigger corruption.
Obviously we disagree as to which is truth and which is fiction.

Yes, there is a difference in types of corruption, but even the small corruption which can be significant.
Reply

FollowingAlhuda
12-18-2006, 01:42 PM
Tanks for the information!
Reply

Muslim Woman
12-19-2006, 01:27 AM
Salaam/peace;

Any Rabbi here to confirm the following verses ?

A JEW SPEAKS OUT!


http://www.scripturesforamerica.org/html2/jm0072.htm



(Here Dr. Freedman makes numerous quotes from the TALMUD. I will only give a few and I ask you to pardon the language used. It is not mine, but comes directly from this Jewish book.


It is from this veritable "sewer of filth" that so-called Jews are taught and which their leaders have "brainwashed" Christians into believing that the teachings of Christianity come - ED.)


In the Volume SANHEDRIN, 55b - "A maiden three years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coitus (sexual intercourse) and if her deceased husband's brother cohabits with her, she becomes his.


The penalty of adultery may be incurred through her; if she defiles him with whom she has connection, so that he in turn defiles that upon which he lies. As a garment which has been laid upon by a person afflicted with gonorrhea."



ZOHAR (II, Mb) - "Christian birth rate must be diminished materially."
Reply

Umar001
12-19-2006, 01:40 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/peace;

Any Rabbi here to confirm the following verses ?

A JEW SPEAKS OUT!


http://www.scripturesforamerica.org/html2/jm0072.htm



(Here Dr. Freedman makes numerous quotes from the TALMUD. I will only give a few and I ask you to pardon the language used. It is not mine, but comes directly from this Jewish book.


It is from this veritable "sewer of filth" that so-called Jews are taught and which their leaders have "brainwashed" Christians into believing that the teachings of Christianity come - ED.)


In the Volume SANHEDRIN, 55b - "A maiden three years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coitus (sexual intercourse) and if her deceased husband's brother cohabits with her, she becomes his.


The penalty of adultery may be incurred through her; if she defiles him with whom she has connection, so that he in turn defiles that upon which he lies. As a garment which has been laid upon by a person afflicted with gonorrhea."



ZOHAR (II, Mb) - "Christian birth rate must be diminished materially."

Sister please please do not go off topic, what has the above got to do with if the Bible is curropted? Ask questions about Judaism in in the Judaism thread in the comperative religion section please :)
Reply

Muslim Woman
12-19-2006, 01:49 AM
Salaam;
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

Sister please please do not go off topic, what has the above got to do with if the Bible is curropted? Ask questions about Judaism in in the Judaism thread in the comperative religion section please :)
yap , this thought came in to my mind, too. As Christians believe in Old Testament & respect Jews as Chosen people & believe that it's their religious duty to serve Jews , so i decided it might not be off-topic :giggling:

but still it is , ok , Insha Allah i will start a new thread on Jewish holy books.
Reply

IzakHalevas
12-19-2006, 01:51 AM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
Hey just to notify you the Link provided is an advertisement.
I'm sorry. This is it:

http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/
Reply

IzakHalevas
12-19-2006, 01:55 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/peace

1. Duet 13:13-17 Certain men....saying , Let us go and serve other gods.....shalt surely smite the inhabitansts of the city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly......and the cattle ''

---regarding Duet , do Jews & Christians need to kill all citizens including kids ? Why kill cattle ?????


Again it was G-d's will that people who commited such sins and descrations of his name were killed. Shall I brin up instances where the evils of people made it so your prophet Mohammod killed?

2. Can Jews marry 3 years old girl ?
http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/three.html


3. Ismail was First born son of Prophet Abraham (p). So, Why Jews believe Palestine is only for them & Muslims have no right
That was not G-d's plan for him. It was G-d's will that he was sent away to inhabbit another land, which is why Muslims in my belief are from the Arabian area.

Jews have no right to Mecca, Arabia or any part of Ishmael's land, On the other hand Isaac had his land as well.
Reply

Muslim Woman
12-19-2006, 02:08 AM
Salaam;

Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
Again it was G-d's will that people who commited such sins and descrations of his name were killed. Shall I brin up instances where the evils of people made it so your prophet Mohammod killed?



http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/three.html



That was not G-d's plan for him. It was G-d's will that he was sent away to inhabbit another land, which is why Muslims in my belief are from the Arabian area.

Jews have no right to Mecca, Arabia or any part of Ishmael's land, On the other hand Isaac had his land as well.

U offered us to answer about ur holy books , now u r angry when i asked few questions ...... why ?

I wanted to know if Jews & Christians need to kill kids , too ? And why kill cattles ? Why u found it so upsetting ? Why not just explain what does the verse mean ? Ask us to explain Quranic verses , we would love to do that :happy:

God blessed ' seeds' of Abraham (p) ......pl.tell me , who is the First born son of Abraham (p) ?
Reply

Umar001
12-19-2006, 02:11 AM
Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
Again it was G-d's will that people who commited such sins and descrations of his name were killed. Shall I brin up instances where the evils of people made it so your prophet Mohammod killed?

Would be interesting to see where Muhammad, peace be upon him, said to kill children and animals, utterly destroy a place, kill anything breathing, kill boys who were captive, show no mercy and so forth.

Eesa,
Reply

Grace Seeker
12-19-2006, 02:23 AM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

Would be interesting to see where Muhammad, peace be upon him, said to kill children and animals, utterly destroy a place, kill anything breathing, kill boys who were captive, show no mercy and so forth.

Eesa,
Muhammad didn't say it. Jesus didn't say it. Moses didn't say it. Yahweh said it.

Who among the first three actually had more people killed?
Reply

Grace Seeker
12-19-2006, 02:27 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
I wanted to know if Jews & Christians need to kill kids , too ?
Though Christian history would not seem to bear out that Christians have always paid attention, Jesus encouraged his followers not to live by the sword.



God blessed ' seeds' of Abraham (p) ......pl.tell me , who is the First born son of Abraham (p) ?
Ishmael. So, what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
Reply

rav
12-19-2006, 02:28 AM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
Would be interesting to see where Muhammad, peace be upon him, said to kill children and animals, utterly destroy a place, kill anything breathing, kill boys who were captive, show no mercy and so forth.

Eesa,
The Banu Qurayza (Arabic بنو قريظة; alternate spellings include Quraiza, Qurayzah, Quraytha, and the archaic Koreiza) were a Jewish tribe who lived in northern Arabia during the 7th century, at the oasis of Yathrib (now known as Medina). Nearly all of the tribe's men, apart from a few who converted to Islam, were taken prisoner and then killed at Muhammad's command in 627 CE, following a siege mounted by Muslim inhabitants of Medina. The Muslims alleged that the Banu Qurayza had agreed to aid their Meccan enemies in their attack on Medina, which the Muslims had just repulsed in the Battle of the Trench.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza

But then again was this not Hashems will?
Reply

IzakHalevas
12-19-2006, 02:45 AM
U offered us to answer about ur holy books , now u r angry when i asked few questions ...... why ?

I wanted to know if Jews & Christians need to kill kids , too ? And why kill cattles ? Why u found it so upsetting ? Why not just explain what does the verse mean ? Ask us to explain Quranic verses , we would love to do that
I think your confused. When G-d wills for something to happen we follow his command.

Maybe you should read ravs post. Was it nessesary to kill everyone including children who did not convert because the tribe helped an enemy? That is what Mohammod ordered.

When G-d says, he is tired of the rape, killing and lawlessness on his earth and wants to rid this terrible civilization he gets his way, who are humsn to argue? After all, he flooded the earth when it was lawless to.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
12-19-2006, 02:48 AM
Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
I think your confused. When G-d wills for something to happen we follow his command.

Maybe you should read ravs post. Was it nessesary to kill everyone including children who did not convert because the tribe helped an enemy? That is what Mohammod ordered.
When G-d says, he is tired of the rape, killing and lawlessness on his earth and wants to rid this terrible civilization he gets his way, who are humsn to argue? After all, he flooded the earth when it was lawless to.
Excuse me? Muhammad(saw) did not order killing of innocents, let alone children.
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IzakHalevas
12-19-2006, 03:04 AM
What happend to the Banu Qurayza then? Did an earthquake swallow them up? The only source from the time says they were guilty of breaking the truce, and they were massacred, by... of course, I will not mention.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
12-19-2006, 03:59 AM
Im talking about INNOCENTS, which where u included children. From what source did u bark that up from?
Reply

YusufNoor
12-19-2006, 04:19 AM
Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
I think your confused. When G-d wills for something to happen we follow his command.

Maybe you should read ravs post. Was it nessesary to kill everyone including children who did not convert because the tribe helped an enemy? That is what Mohammod ordered.

When G-d says, he is tired of the rape, killing and lawlessness on his earth and wants to rid this terrible civilization he gets his way, who are humsn to argue? After all, he flooded the earth when it was lawless to.

Shalom Izak

maybe we should all relax a bit here...

anyway, regading ravs post:

The Banu Qurayza (Arabic بنو قريظة; alternate spellings include Quraiza, Qurayzah, Quraytha, and the archaic Koreiza) were a Jewish tribe who lived in northern Arabia during the 7th century, at the oasis of Yathrib (now known as Medina). Nearly all of the tribe's men, apart from a few who converted to Islam, were taken prisoner and then killed at Muhammad's command in 627 CE, following a siege mounted by Muslim inhabitants of Medina. The Muslims alleged that the Banu Qurayza had agreed to aid their Meccan enemies in their attack on Medina, which the Muslims had just repulsed in the Battle of the Trench.
i've answered this before. even though that tribe abandoned their pact with the Muslims at a crucial time and were really hoping that the follower's of the Messnger of Allah(pbuh) would be annihilated, the Prophet(pbuh) let the Jews pick one OF THEIR OWN ALLIES to decide their fate. it wans't a multiple choice question, THEY picked he guy! they felt he would judge them by their own laws. the Messenger of Allah(pbuh) simply carries out SOMEONE ELSE'S VERDICT! then just the men and 1 woman who killed one of the Muslims.

in Arabia at the time, your word was your bond. you kept your word. THAT tribe of Jews didn't.

i hope this clarifies things abit.

maybe we should start a new thread if there's gonna be a "rumble"! :hiding:

Peace,
:w:

Yusuf
Reply

SilentObserver
12-19-2006, 08:05 AM
Many muslims often say that the Bible is corrupted, this forum is no exception with many people saying that. But it is the same thing that christians in christian sites claim about the quran. Some go into great detail explaining flaws in the quran.
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Muslim Woman
12-19-2006, 08:50 AM
Salaam;
Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
What happend to the Banu Qurayza then? Did an earthquake swallow them up? The only source from the time says they were guilty of breaking the truce, and they were massacred, by... of course, I will not mention.

I m writing from memory......i read about it long ago. Some Jews were war criminals & broke the treaty ........they demanded that they should be judged by Taurat/ Jewish law. Then the last
Prophet (p) granted them this facility & appointed a Jew ( most probably , he was the best learned person among the Jew at that time ). When he recited the verse from Jewish holy book ( i repeat , verdict was annouced from their own holy book ), it was like that men should be killed , women will become captives etc. I don't know about killing of any innocent kids.....if u have any proof that Quran tells us to kill children or the Last Prophet (p) killed any innocent person......show us the proof.


Strange.....i only asked u to explain a verse from ur own holy book and u r mad out of anger.......why ?

If u think, God ordered u to destroy a city because commiting shirk/worship other dieties besides one God is a great sin & sinners need to be punished ,why don't u just explain this calmly ?
Reply

Muslim Woman
12-19-2006, 08:57 AM
Salaam;

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Though Christian history would not seem to bear out that Christians have always paid attention, Jesus encouraged his followers not to live by the sword.

---- I read Bible few years ago. I remember a verse like that , bring sword & use it who don't want to obey me or accept me ( not the exact words ) . So, why Jesus (p) oredered his disciples to bring sword ?

There is another verse like that , i came as fire or sword ( 2 different versions have 2 different words ). So, why Jesus (P) told these ?


Ishmael. So, what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
----hehe , nothing but it has to do something with Palestine. Jews & Christians deny that Muslims have any right over Palestine when ur own holy books clearly states that the First born son deserves double portion .
Reply

Umar001
12-19-2006, 02:03 PM
Originally Posted by rav
The Banu Qurayza (Arabic بنو قريظة; alternate spellings include Quraiza, Qurayzah, Quraytha, and the archaic Koreiza) were a Jewish tribe who lived in northern Arabia during the 7th century, at the oasis of Yathrib (now known as Medina). Nearly all of the tribe's men, apart from a few who converted to Islam, were taken prisoner and then killed at Muhammad's command in 627 CE, following a siege mounted by Muslim inhabitants of Medina. The Muslims alleged that the Banu Qurayza had agreed to aid their Meccan enemies in their attack on Medina, which the Muslims had just repulsed in the Battle of the Trench.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza

But then again was this not Hashems will?
Would be more interesting if you quoted from direct source, since in fact the link you gave had a BIG FAT SIGN:

The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed.
Please see the relevant discussion on the talk page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza

So please, if an event of such magnitude did happen then please please show us from proper sources, not from sources which the 'factual accuracy of' is disputed.

I made a mistake of carrying on this thread, whilst this should be solely on the topic of Is the Bible curropted.

Eesa.
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Umar001
12-19-2006, 02:06 PM
Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Many muslims often say that the Bible is corrupted, this forum is no exception with many people saying that. But it is the same thing that christians in christian sites claim about the quran. Some go into great detail explaining flaws in the quran.
Yes, but the fact that the bible book itself tells us that bits are not found before certain eras and so forth is clear signs, you don't have to go to a Muslim or Athiest Scholar to tell you that the Bible is curropted, but you do have to go to a Christian or Athiest Scholar to tell you the Qu'ran is, although some scholars outside of religion think the Quran is not curropted.
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IzakHalevas
12-19-2006, 04:15 PM
then just the men and 1 woman who killed one of the Muslims.
Really? Can you provide a source for that statement?

you don't have to go to a Muslim or Athiest Scholar to tell you that the Bible is curropted, but you do have to go to a Christian or Athiest Scholar to tell you the Qu'ran is, although some scholars outside of religion think the Quran is not curropted.
Really? What do you mean "corrupted"? I don't believe the Quran is corrupted, because to imply that it was corrupted means that you are implying that it was uncorrupt at one stage, or was a "truth" at one stage. Jews believe the Gospel, and Quran both to not be the word of G-d, and never have at any point. Therefore, they were never "corrupted" because they never were the word of G-d.
Reply

YusufNoor
12-20-2006, 12:10 AM
Assalamu 'alaykum,

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Shalom Izak,


IzakHalevas
Quote:
then just the men and 1 woman who killed one of the Muslims.

Really? Can you provide a source for that statement?
well, for starters: rav's post! Nearly all of the tribe's men, apart from a few who converted to Islam. i highlighted it like 3 or 4 times on my response! :giggling:

Astaghfirullah, sorry i couldn't resist the temptation! the source is actually EVERY SINGLE SEERAH i've heard! from Mufti Ismail Menk to Shayk Hamza Yusuf. check any biography of the Messenger of Allah(pbuh), look for the Battle of the Trench, sometimes it's called the Battle of the Confederates. it's on pp 1392-1394 of The Noble Life of The Prophet (pbuh) Vol 3 by Dr 'Ali Muhammad As-Sallaabee, translated by Faisal Shafeeq. THAT's actually the source where i read about the woman. Shayk Yusuf taught a course on Martin Ling's book and used a few other sources as well.

i would definitely encourage you to read more about the life of the Prophet Muhammed(pbuh)! you WON'T find a single thing that he(pbuh) ever did that is a misjustice or out of place.

Jews believe the Gospel, and Quran both to not be the word of G-d, and never have at any point
i would have to disagree with that as well. EVERY SINGLE JEW that has EVER reverted KNOWS the Qur'an to be the revealed Word of G-d(SWT)!!!

and, Insha' Allah, that's the last time i go off topic in this thread! :rollseyes

Peace

:w:

Yusuf

ps: if you have more questions about Islam, why don't you get a thread going! it's NOT too late! there's still a chance for you!

pps: if you EVER need a Qur'an, i help see that you get one!
Reply

IzakHalevas
12-20-2006, 12:35 AM
well, for starters: rav's post! Nearly all of the tribe's men,
Your right my bad. The women and children were all sold as slaves instead of killed.

apart from a few who converted to Islam.
Islam or death... hmmmm...

i would have to disagree with that as well. EVERY SINGLE JEW that has EVER reverted KNOWS the Qur'an to be the revealed Word of G-d(SWT)!!!
Of course they do, because they converted to Islam. And every convert to Judaism from Islam utterly rejects this claim.

ps: if you have more questions about Islam, why don't you get a thread going! it's NOT too late! there's still a chance for you!
Thank you but I am fine.

pps: if you EVER need a Qur'an, i help see that you get one!
I have one and I have read it.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
12-20-2006, 12:37 AM
LOL! im gunna say this again, where u barking up this info from, ur imagination? How can u say that, when we cant sell people PERIOD! Dont bring in lies...k thnx.
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Muslim Woman
12-20-2006, 12:44 AM
Salaam;

Your right my bad. The women and children were all sold as slaves instead of killed.
U r avoiding a major point that the verdict was given regarding the Jewish
holy book , NOT by Quran.

So, pl. tell us, what ur holy books tell u about war captive , war criminals . What Moses (p) ordered his soldiers etc. As Jewsih holy books are part of Chrsitians Bible , it won't be off-topic.
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Umar001
12-20-2006, 12:46 AM
Hi IzakHalevas,

Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
Really? What do you mean "corrupted"? I don't believe the Quran is corrupted, because to imply that it was corrupted means that you are implying that it was uncorrupt at one stage, or was a "truth" at one stage. Jews believe the Gospel, and Quran both to not be the word of G-d, and never have at any point. Therefore, they were never "corrupted" because they never were the word of G-d.

To imply that a book is curropted does not neccesitate that the book is from God, for example, if you told me the Qu'ran is curropted, it could mean that from the time of Muhammad, peace be upon him, until now there have been some changes made, thus, the Qu'ran is not the same, this is regardless of whether it is the word of G-d. When a person says something is not curropt, i.e. it is in it's true form, this does not mean that it is the word of God, someone can say 'The Qu'ran is not curropted, i.e. it has not changed from what it was first given by Muhammad' and this person could still say 'And what Muhammad gave was NOT the word of God' So what your telling me above is not right :)

With regards to the Bible, the Bible itself testifies to the corruption, footnotes indicate changes that have taken place, whether this effects or is accepted by Jews, I don't know. That was why I asked for your view since you'd be able to give me an insight into it, but I understand that you have other more important things to do.

Eesa


Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
As Jewsih holy books are part of Chrsitians Bible , it won't be off-topic.
Well the discussion is about the curroption of the Bible, how is the war fare involved inside it 'on topic'
Reply

IzakHalevas
12-20-2006, 12:47 AM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
LOL! im gunna say this again, where u barking up this info from, ur imagination? How can u say that, when we cant sell people PERIOD! Dont bring in lies...k thnx.
"And He brought those of the People of the Scripture who supported them down from their strongholds, and cast panic into their hearts. Some ye slew, and ye made captive some."


The verse 33:26 confirms that actually Muhammad did slew some of the Bani Quraiza.
But the verse does not talk about the details of that slaughter. The details of this event can be found in the hadith such as these:

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 448:



Narrated 'Aisha:
When the Prophet returned from the (battle) of Al-Khandaq (i.e. Trench) and laid down his arms and took a bath Gabriel came to him while he (i.e. Gabriel) was shaking the dust off his head, and said, "You have laid down the arms?" By Allah, I have not laid them down. Go out to them (to attack them)." The Prophet said, "Where?" Gabriel pointed towards Bani Quraiza. So Allah's Apostle went to them (i.e. Banu Quraiza) (i.e. besieged them). They then surrendered to the Prophet's judgment but he directed them to Sad to give his verdict concerning them. Sad said, "I give my judgment that their warriors should be killed, their women and children should be taken as captives, and their properties distributed."
Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4390
Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi:

I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubes) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair.
The children who were not killed became slaves.
With regards to the Bible, the Bible itself testifies to the corruption,
Please show me where in the Torah anything was changed. I'd like to see the footnotes as well.
Reply

Umar001
12-20-2006, 12:50 AM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
Astaghfirullah, sorry i couldn't resist the temptation! the source is actually EVERY SINGLE SEERAH i've heard! from Mufti Ismail Menk to Shayk Hamza Yusuf. check any biography of the Messenger of Allah(pbuh), look for the Battle of the Trench, sometimes it's called the Battle of the Confederates. it's on pp 1392-1394 of The Noble Life of The Prophet (pbuh) Vol 3 by Dr 'Ali Muhammad As-Sallaabee, translated by Faisal Shafeeq. THAT's actually the source where i read about the woman. Shayk Yusuf taught a course on Martin Ling's book and used a few other sources as well.

Wa Aleykum Salam wa Rhametulah,

And what authority does the Seerah hold, do you know the level of authenticity it has?

Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
Please show me where in the Torah anything was changed. I'd like to see the footnotes as well.

Did I say the Torah? You even quoted me saying the Bible.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
12-20-2006, 12:51 AM
So you took that and said the Prophet(saw) sold them? your like makin a fool out of urself right in ur own face and u dont even realize, well thats sad.
You went from captives to children?
Pathetic..
As for the captives, we have a thread on this and its been refuted. I would tell you right here, right now, but its not part of the topic. Please check it out, thanx.

noowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, back to topic.
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IzakHalevas
12-20-2006, 12:53 AM
So you took that and said the Prophet(saw) sold them?
I have read that some were sold to rich people. What do you think he did with all of his new "captives"?

But we are going way off topic.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
12-20-2006, 12:55 AM
Ok wheres that somewhere? The only time u were allowed to have captives at all was during war, and they were treated fairly. they were not harmed.
I dunno where ur gettin this from...
Like I said, we do have a thread on this. I dunno where though.
Check it out if u want :)
Yea it is off topic :hiding:
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IzakHalevas
12-20-2006, 12:57 AM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Ok wheres that somewhere? The only time u were allowed to have captives at all was during war, and they were treated fairly. they were not harmed.
I dunno where ur gettin this from...
Like I said, uf ud like ot know more, we do have a thread on this. I dunno where though.
Check it out if u want :)
So to be clear you are claiming that the Jews who did not have pubic heair yet as the Hadiith described were released?
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
12-20-2006, 12:59 AM
Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
So to be clear you are claiming that the Jews who did not have pubic heair yet as the Hadiith described were released?
I duno anything about this particular topic, so i cant comment on it. All i know is they broke the treaty and one of the mods explained this already to u i believe. But im talking to u about captives and children in general during a war, since i figured u were referring to that as well.

Anyways i dont wana get yelled at, back to topic? :)
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Hijrah
12-20-2006, 01:26 AM
Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4390
Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi:

I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubes) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair.
I never heard of this one, is this hadith really authentic? In another sahih hadith it is said that all the combatants were actually killed, so I figured that all the men must have been combatants. If this is the case, why were ALL the men killed, including non-combatants?!
Reply

Muslim Woman
12-20-2006, 01:40 AM
Salaam;

Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
...........Well the discussion is about the curroption of the Bible, how is the war fare involved inside it 'on topic'[/B]


hehe :giggling: ok , can we start a topic like this ( i saw this thread in another forum ) : Why Are The Jews Not Attacked
, There rules are extremely discriminatory against everyone . We can edit the title as attack may create confusion.

Title can be '' Why media condemn Holy Quran when other holy books have extremely discriminatory against
everyone'' ?
Reply

Hijrah
12-20-2006, 01:43 AM
just some more to take note is...the decision was made by sa'd bin muadh who the jews themselves chose to make the decision (they were even given the decision!):

The Siege of Bani-Kureizha

Now came the affair of the Bani- Kureizha. The victory in the opinion of the Muslims was hardly achieved as long as the Bani-Kureizha remained so near, and in such dangerous proximity to Medina. They had proved themselves traitors in spite of their sworn alliance, and had at one time almost surprised medina from their side, an even which, if successful, would have involved the general massacre of the Muslims. The Jews were therefore besieged and compelled to surrender in discretion.

The condition for Surrender put forward by Bani-Kureizha

The Jews made only one condition, that their punishment should be left to the judgment of the Ausite (Of the tribe of Aus) chief, Sa'd Ibn Muaz. This man, a fierce soldier who had been wounded in the attack, and indeed died from his wounds the next day, infuriated by their treacherous conduct, gave the sentence that the "fighting men" should be put to death, and that the women and children should become the slaves of the Muslims ; and this sentence was carried into execution.

"It was a harsh, bloody sentence, " says Lane-Poole, "worthy of the Episcopal generals of the army against the Albigenses, or of the deeds of the Augustan age of Puritanism ; but it must be remembered that the crime of these men was high treason against the State during a time of siege ; and those who have read how Wellington's march could be traced by bodies of deserters and pillagers hanging from the trees , need not be surprised at the summary execution of a traitorous clan."

These traitorous Jews brought their fate upon themselves. If they had been put to death, even without the judgment of Sa'd, it would have been in consonance with the principles which then prevailed. But they themselves had chosen Sa'd as the sole arbiter and judge of their fate ; they knew that his judgment was not at all contrary to the received notions and accordingly never murdered. They knew that if they had succeeded they would have massacred their enemies without compunction.

People judge the massacres of King David according to the "lights of his time". Even the fearful slaughters committed by the Christians in primitive times are judge according to the certain "lights". Why should not the defensive wars of the early Muslims be looked at from the same standpoint? But whatever the point of view, an unprejudiced mind will perceive that no blame can possibly attach to the Prophet in the execution of the Bani-Kureizha.
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Skillganon
12-20-2006, 04:55 AM
Well, as a superficial level one can just read the OT, and decide what part of it possibly sound it is from mens own word and what was possibly revealed by God.

I am really not upto digging up the OT.

The thread is entitled to the Bible, which includes some books in the Torah.

Whatever the original torah was it is unknown. What you may have is remnants of the torah in the scriptures with other stuff that is not.

Just do an internal and external criticism of the torah.
Reply

Grace Seeker
12-20-2006, 03:36 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam;




---- I read Bible few years ago. I remember a verse like that , bring sword & use it who don't want to obey me or accept me ( not the exact words ) . So, why Jesus (p) oredered his disciples to bring sword ?
One verse in the entire NT where Jesus' disciples have a sword in hand, the passage has nothing to do with people obeying or accepting Jesus but is on the occassion of his arrest. So, they bring it but Jesus does NOT tell Peter to use it. Peter does use it on his own and Jesus tells Peter to put the sword away. Jesus then heals the man who was injured by the sword. And Jesus final words on the subject are that one who lives by the sword will die by the sword.

There is another verse like that , i came as fire or sword ( 2 different versions have 2 different words ). So, why Jesus (P) told these ?
These references are metaphors. It is not a call to pick up a sword. It has to do with the division that Jesus causes in the world as people make choices regarding him, it does in some instances bring division within families. We see that very clearly today when a Jew or a Muslim becomes a Christian, or when a Christian becomes a Muslim or a Jew. What you do with Jesus can bring division when others view him differently.




----hehe , nothing but it has to do something with Palestine. Jews & Christians deny that Muslims have any right over Palestine when ur own holy books clearly states that the First born son deserves double portion .[/QUOTE]

That Ishamael was the first born, does not necessarily entitle him to the double portion. Esau was the first born, but the inheritance went to Jacob. Further, God had decreed that he would send a son to Abraham and Sarah who would be the one to receive Abraham's inheritance. Ishmael was born to Hagar, not Sarah. So, Ishmael is not the son of the promise. Personally I think the Palestinians are getting a raw deal today, but you can't make a case from the stories of Abarham, Isaac, and Ishmael for them.
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Muhammad
12-20-2006, 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by New_Muslim
:sl:

On another forum I go on occasionally a Christian on there stated that the Qur'an does not say the bible has been corrupted, and thus no reason for Islam. Can some one give me information as to where it is stated the Bible has been corrupted. Thank you

:w:
Wa Alaykum Assalaam,

The Qur'an does mention that the followers of the previous books changed them:

And mix not truth with falsehood, nor conceal the truth [i.e. Muhammad Peace be upon him is Allâh's Messenger and his qualities are written in your Scriptures, the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] while you know (the truth). [2:42]

Know they (Jews) not that Allâh knows what they conceal and what they reveal?

And there are among them (Jews) unlettered people, who know not the Book, but they trust upon false desires and they but guess.

Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allâh," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby. [2:77-79]

And verily, among them is a party who distort the Book with their tongues (as they read), so that you may think it is from the Book, but it is not from the Book, and they say: "This is from Allâh," but it is not from Allâh; and they speak a lie against Allâh while they know it. [3:78]


And from those who call themselves Christians, We took their covenant, but they have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. So We planted amongst them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection (when they discarded Allâh's Book, disobeyed Allâh's Messengers and His Orders and transgressed beyond bounds in Allâh's disobedience), and Allâh will inform them of what they used to do.

O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Now has come to you Our Messenger (Muhammad wwwislamicboardcom - ) explaining to you much of that which you used to hide from the Scripture and passing over (i.e. leaving out without explaining) much. Indeed, there has come to you from Allâh a light (Prophet Muhammad wwwislamicboardcom - ) and a plain Book (this Qur'ân).

Wherewith Allâh guides all those who seek His Good Pleasure to ways of peace, and He brings them out of darkness by His Will unto light and guides them to a Straight Way (Islâmic Monotheism). [5:14-16]


:w:
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Muhammad
12-20-2006, 03:41 PM
:sl: and Greetings,

Regarding the story of Banu Qurayza that has been brought up, there was a thread about it here, which contains other relevant links:

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...u-quraiza.html

And it has also been mentioned here: http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...ws-medina.html


Seeing as this thread was going in different directions, I have decided to split the discussion about the accuracy of the Torah into the following thread:

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ted-torah.html


I think it is best to close the thread, since the original question has been answered and there are other threads which are open on the topic of whether the Bible is corrupted, such as:

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...corrupted.html

:threadclo
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