39:5

[ArnoldLayne]

Hi everyone, I am new here. I have a question. Someone told me that quran 39:5 says that the earth is round but I can't see any indication of that. Can anybody explain this for me? Thanks and peace be upon you.

[Trumble]

Hi everyone, I am new here. I have a question. Someone told me that quran 39:5 says that the earth is round but I can't see any indication of that. Can anybody explain this for me? Thanks and peace be upon you.

I know

"He coils the night onto the day and coils the day onto the night"

has been interpreted as referring to the earth spinning on it's axis.

79:30

"and the Earth, after that, He made it like a deheya" (a dehaya being an egg apparently) is interpreted as saying it is egg-shaped.

As to roundness of some sort, it's hardly an issue. Despite the popular myth that people thought the world was flat right up until Columbus by the Middle Ages more or less everybody accepted the world was round - the only debate by then was how big it was. The idea that the world was round rather than flat had been around since the Greeks. Eratosthenes even figured out a way to measure it and got surprising close to the actual circumference (he was only about 10% out).

[- Qatada -]

Hey Arnold. :)



THE SPHERICAL SHAPE OF THE EARTH



In early times, people believed that the earth is flat. For centuries, men were afraid to venture out too far, lest they should fall off the edge. Sir Francis Drake was the first person who proved that the earth is spherical when he sailed around it in 1597. Consider the following Qur’aanic verse regarding the alternation of day and night: “Seest thou not that Allah merges Night into Day And He merges Day into Night?” [Al-Qur’aan 31:29]



Merging here means that the night slowly and gradually changes to day and vice versa. This phenomenon can only take place if the earth is spherical. If the earth was flat, there would have been a sudden change from night to day and from day to night.



The following verse also alludes to the spherical shape of the earth: “He created the heavens And the earth In true (proportions):

He makes the Night Overlap the Day, and the Day Overlap the Night.” [Al-Qur’aan 39:5]



The Arabic word used here is Kawwara meaning ‘to overlap’ or ‘to coil’– the way a turban is wound around the head. The overlapping or coiling of the day and night can only take place if the earth is spherical. The earth is not exactly round like a ball, but geo-spherical i.e. it is flattened at the poles. The following verse contains a description of the earth’s shape:



The Qur’aan and Modern Science: Compatible or Incompatible?
11 Distributed by AHYA Multi-Media http://www.ahya.org


“And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped.” 2 [Al-Qur’aan 79:30]




The Arabic word for egg here is dahaha, which means an ostrich-egg. The shape of an ostrich-egg resembles the geo-spherical shape of the earth. Thus the Qur’aan correctly describes the shape of the earth, though the prevalent notion when the Qur’aan was revealed was that the earth is flat.



Ostrich Egg:

If you need more info. please don't hesitate to ask. You can download the whole book from here:

http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf



You need adobe reader to view it, which you can download from here insha'Allah (God willing):

http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html



Or you can watch the authors vids:

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...&search=Search

http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?q=zakir+naik




Peace.

[Trumble]

For centuries, men were afraid to venture out too far, lest they should fall off the edge. Sir Francis Drake was the first person who proved that the earth is spherical when he sailed around it in 1597.

As I said, that's just a schoolboy myth. It was widely (if far from universally)accepted that the earth was round by Mohammed's time, certainly by those with any exposure to Greek thought (and not too hung up on the Bible!) As to the exact shape, name a common household object at that time that was exactly spherical? As usual, far much is read into it. Round? Yes. The actual shape of the earth? No. And clearly the egg isn't.. even Jupiter isn't that oval.

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[- Qatada -]

Even if that's the case, the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) hardly ever left Makkah within the beginning of his prophethood, and this surah/chapter (39 - Surah Zumar) is a Makkan surah. There was no influence of the greeks there either.

Also, the fact that its described as the shape of an ostrich egg is more specific and this strengthens it's reality even more.



Regards.

[ArnoldLayne]

I know

"He coils the night onto the day and coils the day onto the night"

has been interpreted as referring to the earth spinning on it's axis.

How does day and night coiling around the earth translate into the earth spinning? I don't get it. When something coils around another thing, it is the thing that's coiling that is moving, not the object it is coiling around. So this doesn't make any sense to me.

79:30

"and the Earth, after that, He made it like a deheya" (a dehaya being an egg apparently) is interpreted as saying it is egg-shaped.

Somebody who knopw arabic very well told me that deheya is actually speaking about the ostich spreading the dirt out in order to lay it's egg. This matches up quite well with 91.6

091.006
YUSUFALI: By the Earth and its (wide) expanse:
PICKTHAL: And the earth and Him Who spread it,
SHAKIR: And the earth and Him Who extended it,

This is all getting very confusing to me

As to roundness of some sort, it's hardly an issue. Despite the popular myth that people thought the world was flat right up until Columbus by the Middle Ages more or less everybody accepted the world was round - the only debate by then was how big it was. The idea that the world was round rather than flat had been around since the Greeks. Eratosthenes even figured out a way to measure it and got surprising close to the actual circumference (he was only about 10% out).[/QUOTE]

Actually, I heard it was the Sumarians that first figured this out. They noted when a ship sails away from them, the last thing they see is the top of the mast and they put two and teo together andf posulated a round earth. That's at least what I heard. I could be wrong.

[ArnoldLayne]

Hey Arnold. :)



THE SPHERICAL SHAPE OF THE EARTH



In early times, people believed that the earth is flat. For centuries, men were afraid to venture out too far, lest they should fall off the edge. Sir Francis Drake was the first person who proved that the earth is spherical when he sailed around it in 1597.

He was the first person to prove it, but apparently, from what I've been told, the Sumerians postulated a round earth long before Drake. This posulate strangely dissappeared for a while, probably because of the Catholic church.

Consider the following Qur’aanic verse regarding the alternation of day and night: “Seest thou not that Allah merges Night into Day And He merges Day into Night?” [Al-Qur’aan 31:29]

Merging here means that the night slowly and gradually changes to day and vice versa.

That is completely observable to the naked eye. Any caveman will tell you that. No9thing special yet

This phenomenon can only take place if the earth is spherical. If the earth was flat, there would have been a sudden change from night to day and from day to night.

That is not true at all. In both cases, there will be a observable, gradual dissappearance of the sun. A flat earth has a dividing point between visible and not visible, and a horizon on a round planet has a dividing point between visible and not visible. Visualize it. As far as the naked eye is concerned, the effect is the same in both cases

The following verse also alludes to the spherical shape of the earth: “He created the heavens And the earth In true (proportions):

He makes the Night Overlap the Day, and the Day Overlap the Night.” [Al-Qur’aan 39:5]

That doesn't sound like it's describing a round earth at all. In fact, how could the day overlap the night and vice versa unless each were blankets of some sort. This doesn't make any sense to me. I'm trying, but I don't see it yet. How could the night "overlap" the day? It's odd because somewhere else, I forget the verse, it says the night veils over top of the day. No it doesn't. So this is still very very odd to me.

The Arabic word used here is Kawwara meaning ‘to overlap’ or ‘to coil’– the way a turban is wound around the head. The overlapping or coiling of the day and night can only take place if the earth is spherical.

That isn't neccesarily true, but let's say it is for the sake of argument. Also, again, when something coils or wraps around something else, which object is doing the moving? I would say it's the coiling object not the object being coiled. When you wrap a turban around the head, is the head spinning or is the cloth moving around the head? Obviously, the cloth moves around the still head. So this would be a verty poor example. Why was the Quran misleading like this?

The earth is not exactly round like a ball, but geo-spherical i.e. it is flattened at the poles. The following verse contains a description of the earth’s shape:



The Qur’aan and Modern Science: Compatible or Incompatible?
11 Distributed by AHYA Multi-Media http://www.ahya.org


“And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped.” 2 [Al-Qur’aan 79:30]




The Arabic word for egg here is dahaha, which means an ostrich-egg. The shape of an ostrich-egg resembles the geo-spherical shape of the earth.

Someone who knows arabic very well told me that it actually is talking about how an ostrich spreads out the dirt to lay it's eggs. I don't know if that's true, but it certainly matches up well with 91:6

091.006
YUSUFALI: By the Earth and its (wide) expanse:
PICKTHAL: And the earth and Him Who spread it,
SHAKIR: And the earth and Him Who extended it,

Spread it and extended it doesn't sound lioke a ball, it sounds more like a carpet, and this matches what the guy told me that that word really is refering to.

Ostrich Egg:

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/7...richeggmm3.jpg






If you need more info. please don't hesitate to ask. You can download the whole book from here:

http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf



You need adobe reader to view it, which you can download from here insha'Allah (God willing):

http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html



Or you can watch the authors vids:

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...&search=Search

http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?q=zakir+naik




Peace.

[/QUOTE]


"Spreading out" would not be something that I would use to descibe a ball. Why does the Quran say "spreading out"?

[Trumble]

Somebody who knopw arabic very well told me that deheya is actually speaking about the ostich spreading the dirt out in order to lay it's egg.

I couldn't comment on the Arabic, knowing very little. There are several Qur'anic Arabic experts here who could no doubt clear it up.

This matches up quite well with 91.6

091.006
YUSUFALI: By the Earth and its (wide) expanse:
PICKTHAL: And the earth and Him Who spread it,
SHAKIR: And the earth and Him Who extended it,

This is all getting very confusing to me

'Quite', yes, although I find that just as ambiguous and vague as the previous verses. Although Qur'anic verses that seem to suggest the world is flat tend to be less popular than those that suggest it is round, for some reason! ;)

As you'll find out if you hang around here a while it all comes down to interpretations, and which one is favoured. What is undeniable 'proof' to some is, at best, ambiguous and tenuous to others. It just depends on what perspective people start from - generally (although not exclusively) whether that is an Islamic one or not. It is, after all, a comparative religion forum on an Islamic board so that is to be expected.

[Skillganon]

Hi everyone, I am new here. I have a question. Someone told me that quran 39:5 says that the earth is round but I can't see any indication of that. Can anybody explain this for me? Thanks and peace be upon you.

Your quite right the Word daha is use for the flatten depression where the ostrich lay's it's egg.

I will post the article:

Answered by the Scientific Research Committee - IslamToday.net

The word in question is the verb (dahâ) comes from the triliteral root d-h-w and it appears in the Qur’ân in relation to the Earth in the following verse: “And the Earth, after that, He spread out (dahâhâ).” [Sûrah al-Nâzi`ât: 30]

This word conveys one concept in the Arabic language: that of “spreading, leveling, flattening, and smoothing out”. Allah mentions this to us in the verse to show us something of his providence to us. He explains what he means by stretching the Earth out and smoothing it out in the following verses: “He brought forth from it its water and its pasturage, and He made the mountains firmly fixed.” [Sûrah al-Nâzi`ât : 31-32]

Therefore, Allah smoothed out the Earth for us by making it a stable and suitable place for habitation, providing its inhabitants with water, pasture, and keeping its mountains firmly-fixed.

With respect to this word’s association with eggs, it is as follows:

Due to the fact that the word conveys the meaning of “spreading, leveling, flattening, and smoothing out”, the Arabs named the place where an ostrich incubates and hatches its egg udhiyy. This is a hollow pit in the ground around 30 to 60 centimeters deep. The Arabic word for this shallow depression is derived from the triliteral root d-h-w. The reason for this is that the ostrich spreads out and flattens this area with its legs before laying its egg in it. The ostrich uses neither a nest nor a burrow for its eggs.

From this, we must understand that the word is not used for the egg itself but rather for the flattened depresion where the ostrich deposits its egg.

Whoever uses the word to refer to the egg or to the shape of the egg is being inexact in his linguistic usage. However, without doubt we can say that such an error does not detract from the person’s reputation or scholarship as a whole, and it does not warrant a harsh repremand.

In any case, verse 30 of Sûrah al-Nâzi`ât – that mentions the verb dahâ in reference to the Earth – is not discussing the shape of the Earth at all. It cannot be used as proof that the Earth is flat or round or egg-shaped. The verse is silent on the matter. And Allah knows best.

The exact shape of the Earth is best known from empirical observations, and not from seeking to deduce its exact shape from the Qur’ân.

The Earth is practically a perfect sphere, though due to its rotation, it bulges ever so slightly at the equator. Because of this, it is referred to as an oblate speroid. We must keep in mind that this equatorial bulge is extremely slight. The Earth’s equatorial diameter is only 43 kilometers greater than its polar diameter.

To get an idea of how insignificant this difference is, we can compare the spericity to the Earth to that of a billiard ball. A billiard ball must be very spherical. The tolerance allowed for a billiard ball is only 0.22%. (Tolerance, in engineering, refers to the permissible limit of variation in a dimension of a manufactured object.) The Earth, by comparison, has a tolerance of about one part in 584, or 0.17%. This means the Earth is more perfectly spherical than what is allowed for a billiard ball.

And Allah knows best.

ref: http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_se...main_cat_id=31

[ArnoldLayne]

Your quite right the Word daha is use for the flatten depression where the ostrich lay's it's egg.

I will post the article:

Answered by the Scientific Research Committee - IslamToday.net

The word in question is the verb (dahâ) comes from the triliteral root d-h-w and it appears in the Qur’ân in relation to the Earth in the following verse: “And the Earth, after that, He spread out (dahâhâ).” [Sûrah al-Nâzi`ât: 30]


This word conveys one concept in the Arabic language: that of “spreading, leveling, flattening, and smoothing out”.

That matches 91:6 perfectly

Allah mentions this to us in the verse to show us something of his providence to us. He explains what he means by stretching the Earth out and smoothing it out in the following verses: “He brought forth from it its water and its pasturage, and He made the mountains firmly fixed.” [Sûrah al-Nâzi`ât : 31-32]

Therefore, Allah smoothed out the Earth for us by making it a stable and suitable place for habitation, providing its inhabitants with water, pasture, and keeping its mountains firmly-fixed.

With respect to this word’s association with eggs, it is as follows:

Due to the fact that the word conveys the meaning of “spreading, leveling, flattening, and smoothing out”, the Arabs named the place where an ostrich incubates and hatches its egg udhiyy. This is a hollow pit in the ground around 30 to 60 centimeters deep. The Arabic word for this shallow depression is derived from the triliteral root d-h-w. The reason for this is that the ostrich spreads out and flattens this area with its legs before laying its egg in it. The ostrich uses neither a nest nor a burrow for its eggs.

From this, we must understand that the word is not used for the egg itself but rather for the flattened depresion where the ostrich deposits its egg.

Whoever uses the word to refer to the egg or to the shape of the egg is being inexact in his linguistic usage. However, without doubt we can say that such an error does not detract from the person’s reputation or scholarship as a whole, and it does not warrant a harsh repremand.

In any case, verse 30 of Sûrah al-Nâzi`ât – that mentions the verb dahâ in reference to the Earth – is not discussing the shape of the Earth at all. It cannot be used as proof that the Earth is flat or round or egg-shaped. The verse is silent on the matter. And Allah knows best.

The exact shape of the Earth is best known from empirical observations, and not from seeking to deduce its exact shape from the Qur’ân.

The Earth is practically a perfect sphere, though due to its rotation, it bulges ever so slightly at the equator. Because of this, it is referred to as an oblate speroid. We must keep in mind that this equatorial bulge is extremely slight. The Earth’s equatorial diameter is only 43 kilometers greater than its polar diameter.

To get an idea of how insignificant this difference is, we can compare the spericity to the Earth to that of a billiard ball. A billiard ball must be very spherical. The tolerance allowed for a billiard ball is only 0.22%. (Tolerance, in engineering, refers to the permissible limit of variation in a dimension of a manufactured object.) The Earth, by comparison, has a tolerance of about one part in 584, or 0.17%. This means the Earth is more perfectly spherical than what is allowed for a billiard ball.

And Allah knows best.

ref: http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_se...main_cat_id=31[/QUOTE]

WOW !!!

[Skillganon]

WOW !!!

No problem Arnold.

People make errors. :) Not everyone is proficient in arabic.

[ArnoldLayne]

I don't think it's people making errors. I think it's propagandists that don't mind twisting things on purpose in order to give a miraculous aura to the Quran. God, it's getting to the point where in order to talk to a Muislim about Islam, I have to bring a professional translator, because if you don't know arabic, they can tell you anything they want or twist it any way they want. Very discouraging.

[Skillganon]

I don't think it's people making errors. I think it's propagandists that don't mind twisting things on purpose in order to give a miraculous aura to the Quran. God, it's getting to the point where in order to talk to a Muislim about Islam, I have to bring a professional translator, because if you don't know arabic, they can tell you anything they want or twist it any way they want. Very discouraging.

It was a mistake by a person, a mistake that has been reported. A mistake that can be carried forth by anyone, especially in this day and age of internet.
I really do not think one need's to go to far as calling people of twisting things on purpose. A person who has post it has not blame for the error someone else made. If I did not searched for the proper meaning concerning that I probably would have thought that the word "Dahaha" refering to an ostrich egg. Now it has been shown it does not mean that in it's strictest sense.

So please do not make assumption that everyone is trying to twist it anyway they wan't. I have provided you with the answer that came to me and it is important that when correction come's one corrects the error. That is being honest.

If you wan't to know about Islam in general we can provide you with the information, and not stuff like wheter the earth is round or not.

So forgive the error's of individuals and their shortcomings, and don't hold it against us. Likewise one will expect other's to do to you in return.

[ArnoldLayne]

I didn't mean everybody who claims this at all. I meant the people who started the false interpretation. These people probably understand arabic as much as you do, and then, the rest of the people are victims of false propaganda. Anywway, all this stuff about the Quran being a scientific miracle is a very bad idea. People who do this will end up getting snagged. People should stick to the philosophical spirituality. Once you get into science, you are walking a very precarious line.

[Skillganon]

I didn't mean everybody who claims this at all. I meant the people who started the false interpretation. These people probably understand arabic as much as you do, and then, the rest of the people are victims of false propaganda. Anywway, all this stuff about the Quran being a scientific miracle is a very bad idea. People who do this will end up getting snagged. People should stick to the philosophical spirituality. Once you get into science, you are walking a very precarious line.

One has to understand that Quran may have statement that when one look's at it it correlate's with certain scientific knowledge. I don't mean as in detail as one will expect in a science book. Importantly this statement has to be clear. As above some are not clear and people may inadverantly or dileberately make statement of a scientific miracle in the unclear matter's where their maybe no such, their is a danger in that.

The Quran give's warning about that. As a general rule, in all matter's.

مِنْهُ آيَـتٌ مُّحْكَمَـتٌ

فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فى قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ

فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَـبَهَ مِنْهُ

ابْتِغَآءَ الْفِتْنَةِ

وَابْتِغَآءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ

(In it are verses that are entirely clear)
(So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation)
(they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof)
(seeking Al-Fitnah)
(And seeking for its Ta'wil,)

It maybe so someone is doing it for fame or diliberately to lead people away.
I even heard people make Mathematical claim's (i.e. 19'ers) and speed of light claims. They are obviousely false. Some are dileberately put their by people for the un-suspecting victim. It very well be more so for to lead the Muslim away than one will expect to bring a non-muslim into the faith. The lay muslim carries it forth everywhere claiming about those so called miracle's and baaam! Someone with knowede come's and prove's what an idiot he is thus shaking his belief and making him look like an idiot. The person may very well be lead away from the true path even more or possibly abandon it.

As for the above case with the dahaha I do not think it was any more diliberate/intentional than it being a possible error. A plausible error by no mean unique in any person.

I agree with you that relying heavily on science come's with it's added danger. This is a book of guidance to mankind a sign to mankind rather than a science book, and people should ponder over it.

[ArnoldLayne]

Well, the book of guidance also says the night "veils" over top of the day. The sky is held up without pillars, as though the sky would need pillars because it's an object. The moon and the sun each float in it's orbit. Some people try to say that this means the sun is orbiting around the galaxy. Is it? Let's refer to the hadiths for further clarification

Sahîh Muslim (159,205). Its text, as related by Abû Dharr al-Ghifârî, is as follows:

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said one day: “Do you know where the Sun goes when it sets?”

They said: “Allah and His Messenger know best.”

He said: “It goes until it arrives at its place of settlement beneath the Throne. Then it falls down in prostration and remains like that until it is said to it: ‘Arise! Go back from whence you came.’ Then it goes back and rises from its place of rising. Then it goes until it arrives at its place of settlement beneath the Throne. Then it falls down in prostration and remains like that until it is said to it: ‘Arise! Go back from whence you came.’ Then it goes back and rises from its place of rising. Then it goes without people finding anything wrong with it until it arrives at that place of settlement it has beneath the throne. Then it will be told: ‘Arise! Enter upon the morning rising from your setting place’.”

Then Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said: “Do you know when that will be? It will be when ‘its faith will not avail a soul which had not believed before or earned some good from its faith. [Sûrah al-An`âm: 157]’.”

The hadîth is also found in Sahîh al-Bukhârî in a highly abridged form (4803, 7433). Its text reads:

I asked the Prophet (peace be upon him) about Allah’s statement: “And the Sun runs on to its place of settlement... [Sûrah YâSîn: 38]”.

He said: “Its place of settlement is beneath the throne (of Allah Almighty).”

Ibn Hajar al-`Asqalânî, in Fath al-Bârî, his commentary on Sahîh al-Bukhârî, writes:

[Skillganon]

Hello Arnold.

The other's you can bring later or post it in the refutation section, with the clear text:

I will deal with this. Excerpt from Islamtoday.

The moon and the sun each float in it's orbit. Some people try to say that this means the sun is orbiting around the galaxy.

First:

"What we know scientifically about the Sun is that it is indeed in motion. It is traveling around the center of the galaxy at roughly 220 km/s in an orbit that takes about 230 million years to complete.

It may be interesting to take note of the fact that the Qur’ân mentions an orbital motion for the Sun. Allah says: “It is not for the Sun to overtake the Moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.” [Sûrah YâSîn: 40] However, the verse says nothing about the nature or placement of the Sun’s orbit. It states only that the Sun has one."

Is it? Let's refer to the hadiths for further clarification

Sahîh Muslim (159,205). Its text, as related by Abû Dharr al-Ghifârî, is as follows:

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said one day: “Do you know where the Sun goes when it sets?”

They said: “Allah and His Messenger know best.”

He said: “It goes until it arrives at its place of settlement beneath the Throne. Then it falls down in prostration and remains like that until it is said to it: ‘Arise! Go back from whence you came.’ Then it goes back and rises from its place of rising. Then it goes until it arrives at its place of settlement beneath the Throne. Then it falls down in prostration and remains like that until it is said to it: ‘Arise! Go back from whence you came.’ Then it goes back and rises from its place of rising. Then it goes without people finding anything wrong with it until it arrives at that place of settlement it has beneath the throne. Then it will be told: ‘Arise! Enter upon the morning rising from your setting place’.”

Then Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said: “Do you know when that will be? It will be when ‘its faith will not avail a soul which had not believed before or earned some good from its faith. [Sûrah al-An`âm: 157]’.”

The hadîth is also found in Sahîh al-Bukhârî in a highly abridged form (4803, 7433). Its text reads:

I asked the Prophet (peace be upon him) about Allah’s statement: “And the Sun runs on to its place of settlement... [Sûrah YâSîn: 38]”.

He said: “Its place of settlement is beneath the throne (of Allah Almighty).”

Ibn Hajar al-`Asqalânî, in Fath al-Bârî, his commentary on Sahîh al-Bukhârî, writes:

"As for the Sun’s relationship to the Throne, which is what the hadîth is discussing, this is something that we cannot speculate about. The Throne is part of the Unseen and we know nothing about it except what Allah and His Messenger tell us about it. It follows that the Sun’s behavior in relationship to the throne, both spatially and temporally, is also a matter of the Unseen. We must believe whatever Allah and His Messenger inform us about it and not speculate any further on the subject.

We can, therefore, safely conclude that these texts are not proof that the Sun orbits the Earth."

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
These issues have already been answered on the forum:
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...html#post65059

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...round-sun.html

:w:

:threadclo: