Can God be 100% man + 100% divine?

[Malaikah]

EDIT- I have noticed most people have missed the point of this thread. I started is as a discussion of whether or not Jesus can be God with respect to the attributes of God. This thread is not about 1+1+1=3 or bible V quran, bible is not true word of God... please stick to the topic and only draw on irrelevant point if is supoorts your points. :)

Another thread for the chrisians. :D

I have noticed three of the christians on this forum brought up a certain point, I think this qoute by Glo sums it up best, though she isnt the only one who has raised this point:

Why is it as difficult to accept that God can do these things?
As Muslims you too believe that with God all things are possible.
The reason you reject the idea of Jesus' divinity, is that it doesn't fit into your religious teachings. That's fair enough.
But for Muslim to say 'How can God do this? and 'Why would God do that?', seems rather odd.
God knows best, and God is all-powerful ... we both believe this!

Instead of taking other threads off topic we can deal with this here I guess... My reply was:

Actually it only seems that way at a superficial glance but if you consider the matter a little more deeply you realise that the implications of God presenting himself to humans as a man are against the nature of God.

It does not represent an ability for him to do so, rather it represents a disablity because God would have had to reduce himself to a state in which he was no longer all knowing, all seeing, all hearing, all powerful, all mighty! And thats only touching the surface (God has 99 atrtributes in Islam, most of which He would have had to give up if He is to be human)!

Tell me, how is it that the all powerful can be overcome by His creations? He is no longer all powerful when He is crucified by man... He no longer all wise and all knowing when He cries out to God (to himself?) "Why have you forsaken me"! By making that cry He has sinned because He has questioned Gods will rather than remain patient- surely the all-knowing would have known already that this was the whole point of his becoming human? To sacrifice Himself? Why then did He seem to forget it here?:?

Thats just touching the surface of why this doesnt make sense to Muslims. I hope this did not come across as an attack on your faith, I was only intending to reply to your statement.

Discuss. :)

[Keltoi]

Glo gave a link in the other thread that covers this question. Do we really have to repeat the same things over and over again?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Omg sis, cant believe u started a new one lol. We have a thread and ur quite frequent in it. And some other threads have bits n pieces of it.

[Skillganon]

I think no one has anticipated a curious mind as sister Malaikah.

Just post the link here she might have forgot or wait till Glo comes back.

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[Malaikah]

Erm yes I prefer if we keep this thread becuase there are three other questions being discussed by me and Grace Seeker in that thread lol and it isnt focused on this one issue only and also the discussion was pretty limited to the two of us and I want other people to be involved as well. :)

lol @ you tayyaba:p

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Well im just as boggled about what sis cheese is questioning, but i havent gotten a solid answer....ur so at it sis :D

[Keltoi]

Not that I mind discussing Jesus Christ, far from it, but the answers you would get for this thread would be the same as the answers given in numerous other threads.

[glo]

Cheese, I tried to catch you in the previous thread you posted in ... but I was too late.

I suggest you read through this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...0%25+human+God

I briefly scanned it.
Grace Seeker's post #22 may be particularly helpful ...

This issue is coming up in so many threads, and it is getting confusing for all.

Peace

[Malaikah]

Thanks Glo, I replied to that already though:

Erm yes I prefer if we keep this thread becuase there are three other questions being discussed by me and Grace Seeker in that thread lol and it isnt focused on this one issue only and also the discussion was pretty limited to the two of us and I want other people to be involved as well. :)

[glo]

Thanks Glo, I replied to that already though:

I guess the question is whether other people are willing and interested to discuss the same topics over and over again - when there are several threads already doing so. :?
I, for one, am not. (And it is getting late here ... :uhwhat )

The mods are usually quite keen on avoiding duplications ...

Peace

[Woodrow]

There are at least 3 threads running with basicaly the same topics. At the moment I am trying to decide which are the two I am going to delete.

I am inclined to leave this one alone as it appears to be directed towards one specific topic.

[Malaikah]

I'm am pretty sure the other threads are discussing different topics...:?

imsad

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


I think the reason why all the threads discuss this issue is due to the fact that this is the pinnacle point between islam and christianity. We believe Jesus to be a blessed messenger of God, whereas christians claim him to be God.

That's the reason why it keeps repeating itself. And Allaah Almighty knows best.

[Skillganon]

Can God be 100% man + 100% divine?

The question is unfair, Whether they try or not I do not expect my christian freind to able to answer that.

[DAWUD_adnan]

in Islam God is Unique has no equal and cannot be compared to anything for anything else is but His creation the All powerful God without equal, when men say he has a son (istagfirullah) it is sad for to have a son means to give birth. and animals give birth, but God is above all of that, Glory be to Him when He issues something He only say Be and it is. He cannot be compared to anything.
God has no equal NO COMPARISON. they might say if He wills can he not have a son? yes He can but does God oppress you? .. the answer is NO He only does what suites is Majesty and His Uniqueness. He is the Creator And creates, creation is a product of His Will. And HE is above ALL!

See how beautyful that is?
He is ONE the First and Most Important commandment!
while everything can be compared He has no equal for He is The Creator, The Truth, the First. The Last, the Ever-Living, Eternal, The One,The Greatest, Most Mercifull, Most Gracious, All-Knowing, All Hearing, All Seeing

'And He is well aquanted with what ye do'
Glory and Praise are only for the One and Only True GOD, ALLAH!

PEACE be Upon you
Asalamu(PEACE, SAFTEY AND SUBMISSION) aleykum

[Malaikah]

The question is unfair, Whether they try or not I do not expect my christian freind to able to answer that.

:sl:

Why not? That was not my wording, the christians on this forum are the ones who claimed he was 100% man and 100% God at the same time so it is only logical that they should be able to answer!

They seem not to be interested anyway.imsad

[Keltoi]

:sl:

Why not? That was not my wording, the christians on this forum are the ones who claimed he was 100% man and 100% God at the same time so it is only logical that they should be able to answer!

They seem not to be interested anyway.imsad

Well, this isn't really a question of percentages. The main issue is the way in which Muslims understand God, and the way in which Christians understand God. To a Christian, nothing is impossible with God. The concept of God being both man and the Almighty isn't that radical of an idea, or that hard to understand. So at the heart of the matter it is our different ways of understanding God. We could continue with a circular argument of quoting scripture and questioning translations, etc. However, I personally believe that the problem lies in the very different perceptions of God and how God manifests His will on Earth.

[Skillganon]

Come one the statement is illogical. I seriousely would not think our christian freind to go out of their way to endorse it. It will be a waste of time.

The thread should be closed off.

[SirDemonic]

Come on god 100% man and 100% god?

I think you been watching to many greek gods movies such as Jason and the argonaughts etc....

Maybe your talking about Zeus :happy:

If god came to earth like human then trust me the bible, the qu'ran all the holy books will be flawed,

Why should he come down as a human? his got messengers, Angels, everything, he is almighty :D

[Malaikah]

Well, this isn't really a question of percentages. The main issue is the way in which Muslims understand God, and the way in which Christians understand God. To a Christian, nothing is impossible with God. The concept of God being both man and the Almighty isn't that radical of an idea, or that hard to understand. So at the heart of the matter it is our different ways of understanding God. We could continue with a circular argument of quoting scripture and questioning translations, etc. However, I personally believe that the problem lies in the very different perceptions of God and how God manifests His will on Earth.

Yes, exaclty, which leads us back to the argument I made about whether is is possibel for God to still be God in His 'human' form where he had to give up His attributes...

Come one the statement is illogical. I seriousely would not think our christian freind to go out of their way to endorse it. It will be a waste of time.

:sl:

I know it is illogical, thats why we are Muslims. But the Christians believe it! Please dont force me to go and actually quote where they have said that.

Either way, if you read my first post you will realise the issue is deeper than that.

[Keltoi]

Yes, exaclty, which leads us back to the argument I made about whether is is possibel for God to still be God in His 'human' form where he had to give up His attributes...



:sl:

I know it is illogical, thats why we are Muslims. But the Christians believe it! Please dont force me to go and actually quote where they have said that.

Either way, if you read my first post you will realise the issue is deeper than that.

Again, this is still going back to one's perception of God. It also depends upon what one means by "human". Was Jesus Christ only "human?" Obviously not, but Christ experienced all the weakness and temptations that humans do. This is a neverending argument. I also find it a bit surprising that some Muslims seem to think they know what God can, can't or won't do. That being said, it is a matter of faith. We as Christians can explain what our beliefs are, and Muslims can disagree. Just as I disagree with many beliefs of Muslims.

[- Qatada -]

Hi Keltoi. :)


If Jesus felt what a human feels, experienced everything that a human feels, and performed miracles - whats the difference between him being a god or a prophet?

Why would the people at his time believe him to be god, when in the bible - there's no statement by Jesus (peace be upon him) to clearly/explicitly state that he is God?

Statements such as 'no-one comes to the father except through me' can also relate to a prophet/messenger, and that's true - nobody can reach God except through a guidance which God has sent down to His messenger or prophet.

I also find it a bit surprising that some Muslims seem to think they know what God can, can't or won't do.

We actually go to the opposite of what you said and say that God only does what befits His Majesty. So God is not in need of having a son, or walking on the earth to be persecuted by His own creation. He is perfectly capable of forgiving those who turn to Him in sincere repentance.



God doesn't make faith hard and makes it believable. Proof comes along with faith, and God knows that its hard for mankind to believe unless they have proof. This is why we have both in islaam, and this is why we submit to God.



Allaah Almighty knows best.



Peace.

[Keltoi]

and around we go again.....

To fully understand this one must understand the Trinity. Since many Muslims like to talk about this as worshipping more than one God I don't see that happening on this thread. I suppose the reality is that the "proof" provided by Muslims in the Quran is no more convincing to me than the "proof" Christians provide via the Bible to you, so the circular argument over what my Holy Book says and what your Holy Book says is pointless.

One can talk about God "humiliating" Himself until blue in the face, Christians do not see it that way. That is why I believe it is pointless to continue this circular argument. My last contribution to this thread will be this: As Christians our perception of God is much different than that of Muslims it would seem. As Christians, in general, we think of Christ as being one with God, as a part of God. God is all things, so the person of Jesus Christ was and is not "all" of God. A Biblical scholar could probably describe the relationship in more suitable language, but that is how I percieve the relationship. In other words, do Christians believe that the entirety that is the Almighty came down to Earth in human form?, I would say no we do not. Even the idea is difficult to comprehend. The power of God is so great that there is no concievable way that we as His creations could fathom the implications of that. Christ, as being One with and a part of God, is probably the best way to describe the majority of Christian thought on the subject.

[duskiness]

Keltois feathers have been ruffled???
sorry :D I simply could not resist...

[Keltoi]

Keltois feathers have been ruffled???
sorry :D I simply could not resist...

:) My feathers are okay, I just feel like I've been attempting to explain this issue one too many times. Feel free to jump in!

[- Qatada -]

Oh ok, so Jesus was placed on the cross to die for the sins of mankind. And he was chosen because God preferred him over the rest of mankind? Even though according to christians, everyone is Gods child?


I think i understand, and please tell me if i'm wrong.


That's got me thinking though, if God's within the creation - then how come God punishes people for their sins, even if their Gods 'children' or if they sinless [due to the 'sacrifice?]



Regards. :)

[Woodrow]

I have hesitated to poke my nose in here. I finaly realised why. The question itself is flawed. It is not even a question as to if God(swt) can be 100% man and 100% Divine.

The question should be "Did God (swt) become 100% human + 100% Divine"

Let us stop and think about that. A human is not divine. If a human were divine he would no longer be human. Now if God(swt) decided he wanted to become Human and to become human that would mean he would have to give up his divinity. If that were to happen. God(swt) would no longer exist.

Now another option is suppose he assumed Human form for the purpose of dieing. The problem is that in Human form he would still be God(swt) and not a Human. Being God(swt) he would be immortal and death for our sins would be a very moot point as it is not a concievable attribute of God(swt)

It does seem that some Early Christian scholars read a few too many books on Greek Mythology and redesigned Jesus(as) to meet the attributes of the Pagan gods. It does not seem to be mere coincidence that the earliest writings of the divine nature of Jesus(as) would just happen to be written in Classical Greek.

[Chuck]

What about if God splits himself in two parts? Then he would be 50% God and 50% human, but the God part would be 100% God and human part would be 100% human. But I see few problem with this, and there are more that I can't put my finger on.

1. Even with this logic God can't be 100% God and 100% human. He is split 50/50.
2. How would the death on one half of God would affect the other half.
3. This doesn't go well with the logic so one would expect God to explain and state it clearly. In Greek mythologies things like this have been stated by gods clearly, however, in Bible there is no clear-cut statement form Jesus (pbuh) about this. He never said he was God in human form on earth, not even to his disciples.
4. Why would God need to turn himself to human, and die to forgive in the first place? Not to mention all sins are not forgiving in the first place according to Bible, because a disbeliever in Christ would go to hell anyway. If God wants to forgive sin this way then why not forgive all sins including disbelief?

[Skillganon]

Sometime it is best to leave it to the answer given, and not pursue it to much even if one don't understand it. If one don't undertsand it than don't accept it.

Its people choice.

[Malaikah]

:sl:

Could I please remind people of the main focus of the thread:

It does not represent an ability for him to do so, rather it represents a disablity because God would have had to reduce himself to a state in which he was no longer all knowing, all seeing, all hearing, all powerful, all mighty! And thats only touching the surface (God has 99 atrtributes in Islam, most of which He would have had to give up if He is to be human)!

Tell me, how is it that the all powerful can be overcome by His creations? He is no longer all powerful when He is crucified by man... He no longer all wise and all knowing when He cries out to God (to himself?) "Why have you forsaken me"! By making that cry He has sinned because He has questioned Gods will rather than remain patient- surely the all-knowing would have known already that this was the whole point of his becoming human? To sacrifice Himself? Why then did He seem to forget it here?

The point, what happens to God attributes when he is in a human form? And what implications does this have.

[Umar001]

Assalamu Aleykum Wa Rhametulahi Wa Berekatu,

Cheese, look sister, no person is going to offer you a logical reason with evidence telling you how and why a person/god can be 100% God and 100% Human, trust me!!

The fact that it is not logical is not, for some, any reason to question it. 'God can do anything' is what you will hear.

Noone has explained it properly and noone will. The closest you'll get is stuff like 'Jesus poured himself out' or 'Jesus gave up his powers and became humble' and so forth.

The fact that the proofs for the divinity are in of themselves based on hardly reliable evidence and verse which can be interpreted in different ways will indicate to you that this is not a straight up subject.

Some will believe what they want to believe and some will refuse to believe what others believe. But thats the beauty of free choice and the reward/punishment of the afterlife :)


Eesa

[Malaikah]

:sl:

^Thats the point of discussion...:rollseyes

Looks like no one cares enough to discuss. Oh well.

Next time though, if I bring this topic up in another thread in response to someone elses post, dont anyone ask me why I keep bringing it up in so many threads. It is an absolutely central point to any discussion relating to God in christianity, and if it needs to be mentioned then I am going to mention it. :rollseyes

Someone might as well close this thread.

[Keltoi]

Assalamu Aleykum Wa Rhametulahi Wa Berekatu,

Cheese, look sister, no person is going to offer you a logical reason with evidence telling you how and why a person/god can be 100% God and 100% Human, trust me!!

The fact that it is not logical is not, for some, any reason to question it. 'God can do anything' is what you will hear.

Noone has explained it properly and noone will. The closest you'll get is stuff like 'Jesus poured himself out' or 'Jesus gave up his powers and became humble' and so forth.

The fact that the proofs for the divinity are in of themselves based on hardly reliable evidence and verse which can be interpreted in different ways will indicate to you that this is not a straight up subject.

Some will believe what they want to believe and some will refuse to believe what others believe. But thats the beauty of free choice and the reward/punishment of the afterlife :)


Eesa

Actually people have given you explanations that you are unwilling to accept. That is fine, I don't have a problem with you believing my religion is "illogical" or whatever adjective you choose to use. If you can't accept the answer then don't ask the question, that would be my advice. In any case, I agree this thread should be closed.

[Malaikah]

^Really? 2 and a half pages later no one has explained anything... I havent noticed any answer to my question... How can I reject an answer that was never given?:?

[Keltoi]

^Really? 2 and a half pages later no one has explained anything... I havent noticed any answer to my question... How can I reject an answer that was never given?:?

Your question is flawed to begin with. The question should be can Jesus be 100% man and 100% divine. The answer to that question is yes. Yes, we consider Jesus Christ to be as One with God, but Christ is not the entirety of God. As I explained earlier. It is a question of will. In Christ, God willed as a man, but he also had the will of God, which was not of man. When Christ asked the Father "If it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will." (Matthew 26:39), Christ is demonstrating his human will, not his divine will. So in essence, it is a matter of God's will as a man vs. his divine will beyond the incarnation of Jesus Christ.

Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, "you shall not tempt the Lord your God" in reference to Himself

John 6:38 - Jesus says, "For I have come down from heaven."

John 12:45 - Jesus says, "He who sees Me sees Him who sent Me."

Isaiah 9:6 - the child to be born shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace

Those are just a few of the examples of Christ speaking of his own divinity and one description of him from Isaiah, just so the statement that the Bible doesn't support his divinity is brought up again.

[Malaikah]

Hi, thanks for replying but I think you missed the point of my question. I editted the 1st post a few hours ago to explain what i meant:

EDIT- I have noticed most people have missed the point of this thread. I started is as a discussion of whether or not Jesus can be God with respect to the attributes of God. This thread is not about 1+1+1=3 or bible V quran, bible is not true word of God... please stick to the topic and only draw on irrelevant point if is supoorts your points.

[Keltoi]

Hi, thanks for replying but I think you missed the point of my question. I editted the 1st post a few hours ago to explain what i meant:

I think you missed the point of my last post. You can't separate the concept of the Trinity or scripture from your question. The Trinity is fundamental to understanding the Christian view of Jesus Christ. The "attributes" of God and the attributes of man were incarnate in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ demonstrated He was human by His will, but also demonstrated His divinity through miracles and the Word of God. The basis of your question would lead one to believe that if God manifested His will as a human being He is no longer God, as if by the incarnation of Jesus Christ there was suddenly no longer a God. That is simply not the way Christians view the relationship between Christ and the Almighty. As I mentioned in my previous post, Jesus prayed and spoke to God. Jesus spoke to God because of his human will and nature. As convenient as it might be to break up the Trinity for the purposes of dissecting one particular aspect of Christ's divinity, it can't be done. If you can't accept the Trinity, then you will never be able to accept any answer given to this question.

[Umar001]

Actually people have given you explanations that you are unwilling to accept. That is fine, I don't have a problem with you believing my religion is "illogical" or whatever adjective you choose to use. If you can't accept the answer then don't ask the question, that would be my advice. In any case, I agree this thread should be closed.

If there have been explanations given then show me them, please, someone says something then I asked something about it. I dont think Christianity as such is Illogical, if you hold a view that I feel myself is illogical then thats it, but I dont think Christianity is totally illogical.

I agree, if someone does not want to accept an answer they should not ask.

Eesa