Refuting Quranists

[sartajc]

I was debating a Quranist and the debate came down to this and i need some help. he asked 4 questions and i answered them thorougly but i really do not understand his logic. can someone help me out? Here is his last post directed to me-

---------------------------------------

Salaam Simba:

You have said:

This debate comes down to your 4 questions:
(1) We are suppose to follow hadiyth?
We are supposed to follow the SUNNAH of Muhammad as seen in these Quranic Verses I stated earlier"

Those verses did not prove that at all. Simba are you aware that Allah has used the Arabic word "Sunna" right inside the Qur'aan? If you are aware of that then why don't you quote those verses to prove your statement here? Remember those verses did not mention "sunna" period but Allah did not shy away from using the Arabic word "sunna" in the Qur'aan. I bet you if you investigated that you will find out that it does not have anything to do with books fabricated by Bukhari, Tirmidhi, Muslim around 250 years after the death of Muhammad.

"(2) We will get guidance from hadiyth?
Where did we learn how to pray? How are we supposed to pray? How do we do hajj? How do we do all the things that the Quran doesn't specify on?"

Why do you answer this question with a question???? Why can't you do something simple as quote a verse in the Qur'aan where Allah says that we will get guidance from hadiyth???? Simba who is fooling who???? This is what Allah, not I but again Allah says about your fabricated hadiyths:

You cannot win a debate by arguing and proving points with just mere questions, so when are you going to go inside the Qur'aan and prove where Allah says that we will get guidance from hadiyth? Again Allah used the Arabic word hadiyth, so why are you lacking to prove your position in Al Qur'aan? Statements/Opinions/Assumptions and also arguing with question rather then facts from the Qur'aan does not cut it. You can't fool a Muslim now these days. (smile).

"(3) We are suppose to believe in hadiyth?
Do you think that the guidance of Muhammad (pbuh) would be wrong and a lie? You can't be calling Muhammad (pbuh) a lier."

Your confusion is this, you think Bukhari, Tirmidhi, Muslim hadiyths are Muhammads words, remember in Qur'aan 6:19, Allah said that He revealed the Qur'aan not hadiyth. Those hadiyths you are talking about are not Muhammad's words, speech, etc., NO, they were fabricated and falsely attributed to him around 250 years AFTER his death. Where is your proof at in Qur'aan where Allah says those hadiyth books are guidance? Insha Allah I will prove to you later how those so-called ahadiyth contradicts them selves, which proves that Allah did not preserve them because He never sent them as guidance.

(4) Hadiyth was revealed or sent down (nazala) to Muhammad?
The Sunnah of Muhammad was CREATED by him, not sent down to him. The Quran was sent down to him and made by Allah. The Sunnah is made by Muhammad."

This is a way out argument here and definitely illogical; I never heard of that one before. Can you prove in the Qur'aan this????? We are all waiting. All I have been getting are EMTPY STATEMENTS but can you prove this in the Qur'aan? Remember Allah said that His Book is complete, perfect, fully detailed, and that it explains all things, so produce a verse that says Muhammad created hadiyth????? I know of a hadiyth that says allegedly that Muhammad said not to write down any hadiyth and write down only the Qur'aan. If you saw that hadiyth would you accept it because if that is true that means Bukhari and all the hadiyth writers are false from their own source (hadiyth)????

Salaam

--------------------------------

Here is his last post in this thread where he said his conclusion
-------------------------------------
In conclusion:

-Allah never told us to believe in nor follow "hadiyth or sunnah" written by (Bukhari, Tirmidhi, Muslim, Abu Daoud, Ibn Majah, Anas, An Nasa'I, A. Darimi, Al Kulini), just to name a few.

-Allah never told us that we will get guidance from hadiyth.

-Allah never told us that the hadiyth books written by (Bukhari, Tirmidhi, Muslim, Abu Daoud, Ibn Majah, Anas, An Nasa'I, A. Darimi, Al Kulini) is the sunnah of Muhammad.

-Allah has mentioned the Prophets by name (i.e. Abraham, Moses, Isa) and mentioned their scriptures by name (i.e. Suhuf, Torah, Injiyl) in the Qur'aan. Allah told us that their scriptures were nazala (revealed or sent down) by Him but Allah never once mentioned any of the hadiyth writers by name in the Qur'aan nor their hadiyth books they fabricated by name in the Qur'aan. Allah never said their hadiyth or sunnah books written by (Bukhari, Tirmidhi, Muslim, Abu Daoud, Ibn Majah, Anas, An Nasa'I, A. Darimi, Al Kulini) were nazala (revealed or sent down) to Prophet Muhammad by Him (Allah).

The Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims along with the rest of the traditionalist Muslims have no evidence, foundation in Al Qur'aan to prove their hadiyth books they follow from men such as (Bukhari, Tirmidhi, Muslim, Abu Daoud, Ibn Majah, Anas, An Nasa'I, A. Darimi, Al Kulini), just to name a few. It's a sad case to see that at the core of their belief and teachings of Islaam, they have no Qur'aanic evidence or facts to prove their belief system in Islaam or their sectarian school of thought which only proves that they have innovated bida or words of men in Islaam, which has nothing to do with the religion of Islaam. A true Muslim will always strive to seek True Islaam, Pure Islaam.
Alhamdulillah!!!!

----------------------------------

Can someone help me out?
Here is the entire thread for those of you who want to go through it:
http://www.muslimonline.org/index.php?showtopic=772

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

Check this thread Insha'Allah:

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...t-hadith.html?

All the hadith rejectors ran away and all their arguements were shattered. Read the posts by Br. Ansar Al-'Adl Insha'Allah for the best refutations.

And see this as well:

http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...ection=Hadeeth


:w:

[Umar001]

This person has a problem with the authenticity of Hadeth mainly, he is using the authenticity and combining it with the command of following hadeeth. For example he tells us,

Your confusion is this, you think Bukhari, Tirmidhi, Muslim hadiyths are Muhammads words, remember in Qur'aan 6:19, Allah said that He revealed the Qur'aan not hadiyth. Those hadiyths you are talking about are not Muhammad's words, speech, etc., NO, they were fabricated and falsely attributed to him around 250 years AFTER his death.

Within that passage we see him shifting from stating that hadeeths are false to saying Allah didnt tell us to follow hadith anyway.
You'd need to takle both points seperatly, first you should establish with him the linguistic and technical meaning of Hadeeth and Sunnah, then you can go on and show that the Prophet, peace be upon him, didn't lie, and that the Prophet, peace be upon him, is the best example and show him that if we have problems we should refer it back to the Prophet, I am sure he would agree. Then after this, then you tackle the authenticity of Hadeeth, first you will need to clear up his misconception, i.e. this,

foundation in Al Qur'aan to prove their hadiyth books they follow from men such as (Bukhari, Tirmidhi, Muslim, Abu Daoud, Ibn Majah, Anas, An Nasa'I, A. Darimi, Al Kulini), just to name a few.

this is a misconception because nowhere do you find any Muslims saying that we should follow Bukhari or Tirmidhi or Muslim just because they are those people, rather, the science of hadeeth establishes the accounts so in reality we don't follow hadeeth of Bukhari because Bukhari compiled them, thats a misconception if Bukhari complies a weak Hadeeth we would not follow it, this is something that we see, with much critisism amongst Muslims with hadeeth books such as Ibn Majah.

Once he has understood that point, i.e. that we do not follow men blindly, then you can give him an insight to the science of hadeeth, also ask him how he knows logically that the Qu'ran has come down to us from Muhammad without change, peace be upon him. Meaning not based on faith alone, but how he can truly say the Qu'ran has not change, how does he know this? And in a sort of similar way as the Qu'ran has been preserved we know the Sunnah has also been.

Sorry for any mistakes.

[Skillganon]

Assalamu alaikum bro

That was really good brother habeshi.

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[adamtaufique]

Assalaamu Alaykum

I would recommend listening to Yasir Qadhi's Usool ul-Hadeeth lectures. All he deals with the first part is proving from the Qur'an ONLY that hadeeth should be recorded and followed.

[Abu Zakariya]

The Sunnah of the Prophet sall Allahu 'aleyhi wa sallam is a part of revelation. It wasn't created by him.

[Skillganon]

Assalaamu Alaykum

I would recommend listening to Yasir Qadhi's Usool ul-Hadeeth lectures. All he deals with the first part is proving from the Qur'an ONLY that hadeeth should be recorded and followed.

Walaikum assalam.

Any links to those lectures will be appreciated.

[E'jaazi]

Allah and His Messenger (Salallahu Alayhe wa Sallam) have spoken on the matter and therefore, the case is closed!


Assalaamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatu


And whoever contradicts and opposes the Messenger
(Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم ) after the right path has been shown clearly to him, and follows other than the believers' way (i.e. the Prophet and his companions) We shall keep him in the path he has chosen, and burn him in Hell - what an evil destination. (An-Nisa 4:115)


And the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) said, "Hold firmly to my Sunnah and the Sunnah of the Rightly-Guided Caliphs after me. Hold o*nto it with your molar teeth. And beware of newly invented affairs, since every newly invented affair is an innovation, and every innovation is misguidance and every innovation is in the Fire." [Ahmad (4/126), at-Tirmidhee (no. 2676), al-Haakim (1/96) and by al-Baghawee in Sharhus-Sunnah (1/105)]

[Akil]

Firstly to destroy their argument all you have to do is ask them is how do you pray? How much do you give for Zakat? How do you go about the great pilgrimage? Salat, Zakat and Hajj are three of the five Islamic fundamentals if I am not mistaken.

I think the biggest question is proving to them that the Science of hadith is really a science. For starters how is the Isnad evaluated? I have heard the characters of the narrators are evaluated, I have heard they are evaluated for whether there is a break in the chain and whether or not two links in the chain could have actually been connected.

So how is all this evaluated? 10th century Islam didn’t have the internet, I’m sure of that lol How was all this chronicled about the narrators and how safe is the contents of those chronicles from manipulation?

Then of course how is the Matn eventuated? (ie how can the Quran call for whipping as an appropriate punishment for homosexuality while the supposed Sunnah call for stoning?)

I believe you have to get into the meat of the argument, the mechanics and technical aspects of it. That is how you will defeat their claims. Just saying that hadith are protected by the science of scholarship is as hollow as a Christian telling someone just have faith.

[Malaikah]

Wow, impressive Akil. You seem to really know your stuff... for an agnostic!

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


This is also proof that revelation comes in many forms, sometimes other than Qur'an.

[Qur'an Al-Baqarah 2:144]

Verily! We have seen the turning of your (Muhammad's SAW) face towards the heaven. Surely, We shall turn you to a Qiblah (prayer direction) that shall please you, so turn your face in the direction of Al-Masjid- al-Haram (at Makkah). And wheresoever you people are, turn your faces (in prayer) in that direction.

Certainly, the people who were given the Scriptures (i.e. Jews and the Christians) know well that, that (your turning towards the direction of the Ka'bah at Makkah in prayers) is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do.

So we see from there that Allaah orders the Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him) to turn towards Masjid-al-Haram.

Yet does it say anywhere in the Qur'an, ordering the Muslims to pray towards the direction of Jerusalem before that?


Someone please correct me if i'm wrong or made any mistake.

[Akil]

Wow, impressive Akil. You seem to really know your stuff... for an agnostic!

Thanks :P This is of topic but I think it’s important for some non-Muslims to have an understanding of Islam. Not just the surfacy stuff but the nuts and bolts of Islamic theology and jurisprudence.

As the world grows smaller and those weird people from another country become our neighbors and coworkers tolerance becomes not enough. When society becomes so intertwined that each city becomes a microcosm of the world, a real understanding has to be obtained.

[Umar001]

Assalamu alaikum bro

That was really good brother habeshi.

Wa Aleykum Slama Wa Rhametulah,

That's what happens when you read a whole thread of why not to reject hadeeth. Alhamdulilah that I remembered it.

May Allah Make me a Muhaddith. AMeeeeen

[Malaikah]

Any links to those lectures will be appreciated.

:sl:

They can be found here:
http://www.audioislam.com/?subcategory=Hadith

[Skillganon]

Jazak Allah Khair sis.

[Skillganon]

Here's is something I found interesting in the tafsir of Ibn Khatir:

The Command to obey Allah and His Messenger


Allah commands His believing servants to obey Him and His Messenger and warns them against defying him and imitating the disbelievers who reject him. Allah said,


[وَلاَ تَوَلَّوْاْ عَنْهُ]


(and turn not away from him...), neither refrain from obeying him or following his commands nor indulge in what he forbade,


[وَأَنتُمْ تَسْمَعُونَ]


(while you are hearing.) after you gained knowledge of his Message,


[وَلاَ تَكُونُواْ كَالَّذِينَ قَالُواْ سَمِعْنَا وَهُمْ لاَ يَسْمَعُونَ ]


(And be not like those who say: "We have heard,'' but they hear not.)


Ibn Ishaq said that this Ayah refers to the hypocrites, who pretend to hear and obey, while in fact they do neither. Allah declares that these are the most wicked creatures among the Children of Adam,


[إِنَّ شَرَّ الدَّوَابِّ عِندَ اللَّهِ الصُّمُّ]


(Verily, the worst of living creatures with Allah are the deaf) who do not hear the truth,


[الْبُكْمُ]


(and the dumb) who cannot comprehend it,


[الَّذِينَ لاَ يَعْقِلُونَ]


(who understand not. ) These indeed are the most wicked creatures, for every creature except them abide by the way that Allah created in them. These people were created to worship Allah, but instead disbelieved. This is why Allah equated them to animals, when He said,


[وَمَثَلُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ كَمَثَلِ الَّذِى يَنْعِقُ بِمَا لاَ يَسْمَعُ إِلاَّ دُعَآءً وَنِدَآءً]


(And the example of those who disbelieve is as that of him who shouts to those that hear nothing but calls and cries.) [2:171], and,


[أُوْلَـئِكَ كَالأَنْعَـمِ بَلْ هُمْ أَضَلُّ أُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْغَـفِلُونَ]


(They are like cattle, nay even more astray; those! They are the heedless ones.) [7:179]


It was also said that the Ayah (8:22) refers to some of the pagans of Quraysh from the tribe of Bani `Abd Ad-Dar, according to Ibn `Abbas, Mujahid and Ibn Jarir. Muhammad bin Ishaq said that this Ayah refers to hypocrites, as we stated. There is no contradiction here, because both disbelievers and hypocrites are devoid of sound comprehension, in addition to having lost the intention to do good. Allah states here that such are those who neither have sound understanding nor good intentions, even if they have some type of reason,


[وَلَوْ عَلِمَ اللَّهُ فِيهِمْ خَيْرًا لأَسْمَعَهُمْ]


(Had Allah known of any good in them, He would indeed have made them listen.)


He would have helped them understand. However, this did not happen because there is no goodness in such people, for Allah knows that,


[وَلَوْ أَسْمَعَهُمْ]


(even if He had made them listen...) and allowed them to understand,


[لَتَوَلَّواْ]


(they would but have turned...), intentionally and out of stubbornness, even after they comprehend,


[وَهُم مُّعْرِضُونَ]


(with aversion.), to the truth.


[يأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ اسْتَجِيبُواْ لِلَّهِ وَلِلرَّسُولِ إِذَا دَعَاكُمْ لِمَا يُحْيِيكُمْ وَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّ اللَّهَ يَحُولُ بَيْنَ الْمَرْءِ وَقَلْبِهِ وَأَنَّهُ إِلَيْهِ تُحْشَرُونَ ]


(24. O you who believe! Answer Allah and (His) Messenger when he (the Messenger) calls you to that which will give you life, and know that Allah comes between a person and his heart. And verily to Him you shall (all) be gathered.)

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=8&tid=19849

[adamtaufique]

Assalaamu Alaykum

Here are some of the notes from Yasir Qadhi's session on the sciences of Hadeeth:

1. Prophets are Infallible:

O Messenger, announce that which has been revealed to you from your Lord, and if you do not, then you have not conveyed His message. And Allah will protect you from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the disbelieving people.
[al-Ma'idah (5):67]

And if Muْammad had made up about Us some [false] sayings,
We would have seized him by the right hand;
Then We would have cut from him the aorta.
[al-Haaqah (69):44-46]

2. The intent of sending the messengers was for mankind to follow them

And We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed by permission of Allah. And if, when they wronged themselves, they had come to you, [O Muْammad], and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Accepting of repentance and Merciful.
[an-Nisa (4):64]

3. Actions of the Sahabah: If they obeyed, Allah was quiet, but if they disobeyed, Allah revealed something:

a) Allah was quiet:

Abu Sa'eed reported that once the prophet removed his shoes during prayer. The companions did the same. Afterwards, the prophet turned around and asked his companions why they did so. The companions replied that they saw the prophet doing so and they did the same. The prophet then replied, "Jibreel came to me during salaah and informed me of some najis substance that was on my shoes, thus I removed them..."
Narrated in Ahmad, Abu Dawood, Hakim, ibn Hibban and ibn Khuzaymah

b) Allah revealed something:

Disobedience during the battle of Uhud:

And Allah had certainly fulfilled His promise to you when you were killing the enemy by His permission until [the time] when you lost courage and fell to disputing about the order [given by the Prophet] and disobeyed after He had shown you that which you love. Among you are some who desire this world, and among you are some who desire the Hereafter. Then he turned you back from them [defeated] that He might test you. And He has already forgiven you, and Allah is the possessor of bounty for the believers.
[Remember] when you [fled and] climbed [the mountain] without looking aside at anyone while the Messenger was calling you from behind. So Allah repaid you with distress upon distress so you would not grieve for that which had escaped you [of victory and spoils of war] or [for] that which had befallen you [of injury and death]. And Allah is [fully] Acquainted with what you do.\
[ali-Imraan (3):152-153

4. Verses in the Qur'an that order us to follow the sunnah:

a) Belief in the prophet

Say, [O Muْammad], "O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, [from Him] to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death." So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered prophet, who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him that you may be guided.
[al-A'raaf (7):158]

b) Prophet is the explainer of the Qur'an:

[We sent them] with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.
[an-Nahl (16):44]

c) Allah revealed something other than the Qur'an:

And when you divorce women and they have [nearly] fulfilled their term, either retain them according to acceptable terms or release them according to acceptable terms, and do not keep them, intending harm, to transgress [against them]. And whoever does that has certainly wronged himself. And do not take the verses of Allah in jest. And remember the favor of Allah upon you and what has been revealed to you of the Book and wisdom by which He instructs you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is Knowing of all things.
[al-Baqarah (2):231]

d) Explicitly stated:

He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah ; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian.
[an-Nisa (4):80]

e) Obedience to the prophet is a sign of loving Allah:

Say, [O Muْammad], "If you should love Allah , then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."
[ali-Imraan (3):31]

These are most of the proofs he went over, and he mentioned that these are just a few of thousands of proofs you can use from the Qur'an.

And Allah knows best.

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Oh yeah, heres yasir qadhi's lecture:

• Legal Status of Sunnah - Part 01
• Legal Status of Sunnah - Part 02

http://kalamullah.com/yasir-qadhi.html