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IzakHalevas
01-10-2007, 06:59 PM
Police are investigating an alleged attack on two ultra-Orthodox teenagers, including one who was already on crutches, which may have been motivated by antisemitism or anti-Israel sentiment.

The boys, aged 16 and dressed in traditional black-and-white Orthodox garb, were waiting for a tram in Melbourne’s Chapel Street on Tuesday night when a car pulled up and one of its passengers allegedly shouted, “You killed our cousins in Lebanon”, in what is believed to be a reference to Israel’s war against Hezbollah last July.

One of the boys, who already had a broken leg in plaster, was then attacked with one of his crutches. The other boy received minor facial injuries. Both boys were taken to The Alfred hospital, where they were treated and released a short time later.

A member of Police Victoria told the AJN that because the boys could not provide a registration number for the vehicle, identifying the suspects would be extremely difficult.

Gavin Queit, director of the Jewish Community Council of Victoria’s (JCCV’s) Community Security Group stressed the need for attack victims or witnesses to note car registrations. “It’s the key piece of information in an investigation,” he said.

A spokesperson from Stonnington City Council said that in late 2004, security cameras were installed in the area as part of a trial involving the State Government and Telstra, as well as private industry. However, the cameras have since been removed and not replaced, reportedly due to budget cuts.

Last October, another Orthodox man, Menachem Vorchheimer, was assaulted by a group of footballers as he walked to shul on Simchat Torah. As yet, no charges have been laid over the incident.

http://crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=4430
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netprince
01-10-2007, 07:58 PM
Bet they felt like "real" men having beaten up a couple of children!!

Sad state of affairs when children are targeted for no other crime than the crime of colour or creed.....
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rav
01-11-2007, 03:22 AM
Disgusting.
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north_malaysian
01-11-2007, 04:57 AM
crazy people...
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
01-11-2007, 05:01 AM
What a bunch of tarts....sigh.
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SilentObserver
01-11-2007, 06:25 AM
I know some aussies that are real happy about immigration.
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Malaikah
01-11-2007, 06:53 AM
^What is that meant to mean?
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rav
01-11-2007, 11:08 AM
I think he might be suggesting that it is due to immigration, but I would like to remind him, that most of the Orthodox Jewish populations from Eastern Europe, the majority went to Australia, and the USA.

Many of these Orthodox Jews are second or third generation Aussies, and therefore, could be compared to the amount of time some of the Muslims have been there.
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Malaikah
01-11-2007, 11:28 AM
I wouldn't make sense that he was referring to the Jewish boys because they were the victims... rather it seems that he was referring to the Lebanese boys.

As if the only criminals in Australia are immigrants...:rollseyes

(By the way rav, no need to mention Muslims because those boys could have easily been Christians)
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rav
01-11-2007, 11:39 AM
As if the only criminals in Australia are immigrants...



(By the way rav, no need to mention Muslims because those boys could have easily been Christians)
First off, yes I was thinkin he was refering to immigrants as criminals, but what I was trying to say is that the boys are second or third generation immigrants as well, who are Orthodox and refuse to assimilate into secular society.

Second, this is very true. The majority of Arab Lebanese in the USA today are Christian which is why the Christians are not a majority in Lebanon anymore, because many left.
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seeker_of_ilm
01-11-2007, 12:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
I know some aussies that are real happy about immigration.
Yes, and I know some Aussies that love immigration.

What does that prove?
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SilentObserver
01-12-2007, 03:36 AM
Crime is disproportionately high among immigrants.
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Woodrow
01-12-2007, 04:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Crime is disproportionately high among immigrants.
It would be more exact to say, Crime conviction is disproportianatly high among immigrants.



An immigrant is not likely to have any effective support group to help him evade capture.

An immigrant is more readily identified when attempting to escape

An immigrant most likely will not have the money to afford adequate defense if accused of a crime.

The rate of convictions does not necessarily indicate the predisposistion for commiting crimes


A truer indicator of any crime growth would be to find crime statistics in an area before and after a significant number of immigrants populate the area.
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rav
01-12-2007, 04:07 AM
An immigrant most likely will not have the money to afford adequate defense if accused of a crime.
That is the key point.
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SilentObserver
01-12-2007, 06:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
It would be more exact to say, Crime conviction is disproportianatly high among immigrants.



An immigrant is not likely to have any effective support group to help him evade capture.

An immigrant is more readily identified when attempting to escape

An immigrant most likely will not have the money to afford adequate defense if accused of a crime.

The rate of convictions does not necessarily indicate the predisposistion for commiting crimes


A truer indicator of any crime growth would be to find crime statistics in an area before and after a significant number of immigrants populate the area.
Perhaps in your country. In my community, where I live, my earlier post stands. 15 years ago, a certain ethnic community did not exist here. Today, this new community is established, and growing. Certain criminal activity, and problems did not exist before. Now these problems are huge in my community. And there is one common factor to a number of new problems.

We see who is creating these problems. We see them doing things that we would never have done.
The behavior is that of people in a third world country, only we are not in a third world country. I have heard people say, "well they can't help it, that is the way it is in their home country". Well I say, so why does that become our problem? We should let them destroy our community because they came from a messed up place?
It is like saying, "I am going to help those lepers by allowing them to infect me with leprosy." It makes no sense. If we are going to help them, help them in their own country, don't bring them to mine. We can help them without destroying our home.
I fault my government for this. But sadly, I don't think it will get better.

You can understand that my opinion when it comes to crime and immigrants is this; if an immigrant is convicted of a crime in my country, get him on the next plane home.
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Zulkiflim
01-12-2007, 03:17 PM
Salaam,

well in this time i would not say i am abhorred by the news.

Muslim are victimized and targeted indiscriminately just for being muslim.

They were attacked for what israel did to lebanon,these jewish children did not deserve the beating,,,but did the lebanese deserve the bombimng and cluster bomb by israel?

So i wuld say,anger is and will spill over,is it right..no..
Is it human,,yes..

So i would say,we shuld expect more news of jews to be targeted or killed just like muslim worldwide are targeted and killed indiscriminatley..
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Muezzin
01-12-2007, 03:21 PM
It doesn't matter if a reaction is 'human'. If people are going around beating up innocent Jewish teens, or Muslim teens, or anyone else, they should be punished as the law allows.
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Bittersteel
01-12-2007, 03:26 PM
I don't totally disagree with Silent Observer.some of the young Muslims when they immigrate to a modern and liberal country like Aus or UK or US tend to do a lot of things.I have seen them.they get out of control.
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Zulkiflim
01-12-2007, 06:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
It doesn't matter if a reaction is 'human'. If people are going around beating up innocent Jewish teens, or Muslim teens, or anyone else, they should be punished as the law allows.

Salaam,

Yes ia gree that the law must the decisive factor,but when the law sides with one side due to race/religion then the law is not for all.

I just wish to point out that once in South Africa the LAW was that no blacks can enter a white premises...is it right?
No..
Is it lawful..yes..

But does that mean that the blacks in south africa need not fight for their right...casue then they would break the law?

It is the same,here we condemn the harm done to 2 civillians,but where is the condemnation and punishment due to the aggresors in palesitne or lebanon or any where else?

that is why if trully the world is ruled BY LAW,we would have no such human reaction..
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rav
01-12-2007, 07:49 PM
They were attacked for what israel did to lebanon,these jewish children did not deserve the beating,,,but did the lebanese deserve the bombimng and cluster bomb by israel?
Right, so after a suicide bombing kids a bus full of kids should I go beat some Muslims?

Your logic makes no sense, and it reveals a disgusting thought process.

So i would say,we shuld expect more news of jews to be targeted or killed just like muslim worldwide are targeted and killed indiscriminatley..
I guess that shows Islams or at least this Muslims true thought process.
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Muezzin
01-12-2007, 07:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

Yes ia gree that the law must the decisive factor,but when the law sides with one side due to race/religion then the law is not for all.
What? Laws prohibiting violence in Australia do not discriminate on grounds of race or religion.

I just wish to point out that once in South Africa the LAW was that no blacks can enter a white premises...is it right?
No..
Is it lawful..yes..

But does that mean that the blacks in south africa need not fight for their right...casue then they would break the law?
What does that have to do with punishing people who go and beat up innocent teenagers for no good reason? The apartheid laws were unjust and immoral. A law punishing people for attacking other people in a racist haze is not unjust or immoral.

It is the same,here we condemn the harm done to 2 civillians,but where is the condemnation and punishment due to the aggresors in palesitne or lebanon or any where else?
There's plenty of condemnation. There's no 'punishment' because that's the way the world works. Certain nations can go to war with each other, killing thousands of civilians on either side in the process, but the only ones who are punished in war are the losers, even if the victors are truly guilty as well.

that is why if trully the world is ruled BY LAW,we would have no such human reaction..
That's life. There's no excuse for such violence.

format_quote Originally Posted by rav
I guess that shows Islams or at least this Muslims true thought process.
It's the latter.
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Malaikah
01-13-2007, 01:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by rav
Right, so after a suicide bombing kids a bus full of kids should I go beat some Muslims?

Your logic makes no sense, and it reveals a disgusting thought process.
Maybe you should re-read his post.

He did not say it was justified, he said it was EXPECTED. Huge difference.

You might have missed these parts:

these jewish children did not deserve the beating
So i wuld say,anger is and will spill over,is it right..no..
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Zulkiflim
01-13-2007, 02:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
What? Laws prohibiting violence in Australia do not discriminate on grounds of race or religion.


What does that have to do with punishing people who go and beat up innocent teenagers for no good reason? The apartheid laws were unjust and immoral. A law punishing people for attacking other people in a racist haze is not unjust or immoral.


There's plenty of condemnation. There's no 'punishment' because that's the way the world works. Certain nations can go to war with each other, killing thousands of civilians on either side in the process, but the only ones who are punished in war are the losers, even if the victors are truly guilty as well.


That's life. There's no excuse for such violence.


It's the latter.
Salaam,

as always laws there are the literal law and the spirit of the law,upon which it is upon the judge to decide. or a jury,,thus it becomes a human affair plagued with self motivation.

I just highlighted the south african laws,and we both agree that it was immoral,,but it was the LAW..as set by mena dn judged by men..
Was it right for all races?..NO
And there are now laws that prevent justice from being carried out espeially if you are an US citizen or an Isreali,,is it right?

How then is justice enforced?.



And becasue of such thining where one coutnry can do ill while antoher cannot even when the circumstances are the same,it thus renders to the human factor.
Judgement..based on human decision not by Justice.

If we trully have a world based on justice,we would see the wrongdoers of any skin or reliogn or natinalities punished.

But we dont see that now,and that lead to many to take the laws into their own hands.

Laws are made by men and can be broken by men.

Hopefully in time we will all realise that there ar eno boundaries and one law is applicable to all of mankind.
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Zulkiflim
01-13-2007, 02:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rav
Right, so after a suicide bombing kids a bus full of kids should I go beat some Muslims?

Your logic makes no sense, and it reveals a disgusting thought process.



I guess that shows Islams or at least this Muslims true thought process.
Salaam,

May i ask what did the Isrealis goverment do after every sucide bombing,attack kill and oppreseed those who have no link to the action.
The Isreal goverment rationale was that the entire population was wrong..

Houses are demolished and children a re murdered..

what did the palesitnian do...revenge.

was it wrong.
in what way is it right for Isrelais to exact revenge but wrong for Palestinian to do like wise?

Do you say that a isrelais know love but a palesitnian would not feel the loss of their loved ones?

Hyprocrisy..

It extend to all jew worldwide,by race they are a target ,,they may be innocent,but so are every muslim,,but did that thinking stop the rampage of isrealis from murering palestianin with wmd?
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rav
01-14-2007, 01:18 AM
It extend to all jew worldwide,by race they are a target ,,they may be innocent,but so are every muslim,,but did that thinking stop the rampage of isrealis from murering palestianin with wmd?
Right, you claim every single person every Muslim and Palestinian is innocent. All of them. :rollseyes

The Jews had plenty of sympathy for Arabs until your extremists began blowing up our buses and pre-schools. And starting riots 30 years before the creation of Israel!!!!

Or maybe because of the old Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, ever heard of him?

Hint: Mohammad Amin al-Husayni
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Abu Zakariya
01-14-2007, 01:31 AM
The Jews had plenty of sympathy for Arabs until your extremists began blowing up our buses and pre-schools.
Isn't this an example of the same thought process you just condemned?
I mean, with this kind of reasoning a Muslim could say: Muslims had plenty of sympathy for Jews until your extremists occupied Arab land and began opening fire in mosques?

Or maybe because of the old Sephardic Chief Rabbi of Israel, ever heard of him? Hint: It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and ****able
The Lord shall return the Arabs' deeds on their own heads, waste their seed and exterminate them, devastate them and vanish them from this world. His quotes.
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rav
01-14-2007, 01:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Zakariya
Isn't this an example of the same thought process you just condemned?
I mean, with this kind of reasoning a Muslim could say: Muslims had plenty of sympathy for Jews until your extremists occupied Arab land and began opening fire in mosques?
No, because we are talking about sympathy. The Jews in general had a lot of sympathy for the Muslims, but when attacks began against Jews, the Jewish world in general began stanidn up less for Muslims and became more wary on relations because a huge conflict was arising, regardless of the origins.

Or maybe because of the old Sephardic Chief Rabbi of Israel, ever heard of him? Hint: It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and ****able
The Lord shall return the Arabs' deeds on their own heads, waste their seed and exterminate them, devastate them and vanish them from this world. His quotes.
Really? Can you provide a link? I wonder where you are getting this from, since there have been so many made up quotes that Jewish leaders have nver said and have been used as propaganda.
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Abu Zakariya
01-14-2007, 01:55 AM
No, because we are talking about sympathy. The Jews in general had a lot of sympathy for the Muslims, but when attacks began against Jews, the Jewish world in general began stanidn up less for Muslims and became more wary on relations because a huge conflict was arising, regardless of the origins.
My point was that Muslims could say the same. Both sides could argue "if it werent for this or that you did to us, we would have more sympathy for you"

Really? Can you provide a link? I wonder where you are getting this from, since there have been so many made up quotes that Jewish leaders have nver said and have been used as propaganda.
This isn't made up. It's from a BBC News article: Rabbi calls for annihilation of Arabs
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IzakHalevas
01-14-2007, 02:43 AM
From the link:
And he added: "I suggest that we not learn from the ways of the Palestinians and speak in verbal blows like these."

Of course his speech is completly disusting and does not represent the majority or even a sizable minorities view on the situation.

It is also written elsewhere: However his second comment was in fact a slightly modified quote from Obadiah 1:18, referring to the descendants of Esau. A Shas spokesman defended Rabbi Yosef, saying the speech had been in reference to "Arab murderers and terrorists", not all Arabs, and that the Rabbi had been saying that the state of Israel should pursue its enemies mercilessly, as G-d had commanded the ancient Israelites to fight against their own adversaries.

I think the guy is crazy to tell you the truth, and he certainly needs to shut up, but let me tell you, he always tells people to stick to "Verbal Blows" one of his main singature phrases.

But then again, he is still crazy:

He has said things about the Holocaust and why it happend that have outraged millions including me.

In other words: He is nuts, but would never encourage anyone to beat up a few kids because of a terrorist attack, but certainly has rage problems in his sermons.

But then again, I have been in a mosque before, and felt scared because I thought people may find out I was Jewish after the sermon.

The crazist thing is he is an Iraqi Jew, whose family fled after riots against the Jews there, I have heard.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
01-14-2007, 02:50 AM
Yea..people like that only make it worse for us :X
It's a pain isnt it? =|
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Abu Zakariya
01-14-2007, 02:57 AM
IzakHalevas

Again, my point was that if a Jew says "the Grand Mufti said this" a Muslim could point out "the Chief Rabbi said that". So, it's pointless to go back and forth like this.
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IzakHalevas
01-14-2007, 03:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Zakariya
IzakHalevas

Again, my point was that if a Jew says "the Grand Mufti said this" a Muslim could point out "the Chief Rabbi said that". So, it's pointless to go back and forth like this.
Well the Grand Mufti he was refering to actually visited Berlin often, had his picture taken with Hitler, and recuited young Muslims to join the SS (Nazi secret police, that some units were involved in the genocide of the Holocaust.) I am not sure if any of those units were the Muslim ones however, I doubt it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:H...egram_1943.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:AlHusayniHitler.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:G...s-recruits.jpg

A bit different then just words, but there is no point in bringing up a senseless debate, which will only lead to more fighting that I really do not want to get involved in.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
01-14-2007, 03:02 AM
Why do ppl use wikipedia is their truthful source? Some are and some are not.
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IzakHalevas
01-14-2007, 03:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Why do ppl use wikipedia is their truthful source? Some are and some are not.
Those are pictures of the Grand Mufti and Hitler, Grand Mufti and SS, and a letter by Nazi to Grand Mufti. They are posted on wikipedia but were taken and developed years before wikipedia or the internet for that matter came into existance.

How are they untruthful?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
01-14-2007, 03:17 AM
o0o ok...my bad then :D
well a lot of it is...cuz anyone can put stuff up.
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IzakHalevas
01-14-2007, 03:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba
o0o ok...my bad then :D
well a lot of it is...cuz anyone can put stuff up.
Yeah that is why I generally do not use it as a source for text, unless they cite the info they have at the bottom of the page. :D
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
01-14-2007, 03:29 AM
^^ lol yea.
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Abu Zakariya
01-14-2007, 03:30 AM
IzakHalevas

I'm familiar with al-Husayni. Since you brought all of that up, it seems that you missed the point. You can mention what this guy did, which was supporting Nazis that wanted to annihilate Jews, and we can on the other hand point out that the Chief Rabbi called for the annihilation of Arabs. Both, it can be claimed, wanted the other side to be annihilated. Now, you point out that some have argued that the Rabbi only meant some Arabs, but al-Husayni has also said that he was only against some Jews (the Jews of Palestine). I don't think that what either of these two men said should be defended. But again, the point is to show you how both sides can point the finger at the other. You can point to the fact that there have been suicide bombings where innocent Jews have been slaughtered, and we can on the other hand point to the shooting in the mosque in Palestine where innocent Muslims were slaughtered. That's why I objected to rav's earlier post.
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IzakHalevas
01-14-2007, 03:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Zakariya
IzakHalevas

I'm familiar with al-Husayni. Since you brought all of that up, it seems that you missed the point. You can mention what this guy did, which was supporting Nazis that wanted to annihilate Jews, and we can on the other hand point out that the Chief Rabbi called for the annihilation of Arabs. Both, it can be claimed, wanted the other side to be annihilated. Now, you point out that some have argued that the Rabbi only meant some Arabs, but al-Husayni has also said that he was only against some Jews (the Jews of Palestine). I don't think that what either of these two men said should be defended. But again, the point is to show you how both sides can point the finger at the other. You can point to the fact that there have been suicide bombings where innocent Jews have been slaughtered, and we can on the other hand point to the shooting in the mosque in Palestine where innocent Muslims were slaughtered. That's why I objected to rav's earlier post.
Good point. I clearly stated that I think that Rabbi is a nut, as many Jews do.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
01-14-2007, 03:41 AM
And we have peaceful closure, yay lol.
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Muezzin
01-14-2007, 02:09 PM
To the topic, Robin.
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