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Muslim Woman
01-21-2007, 09:33 AM
I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)


&&&

How to ask Rabbi , Priest, Imam & others ?

----If u have online address or e-mail of Rabbi , Priest , Imams , then post it here , pl.So that , we can ask them & have scholarly answers :statisfie

here is one link but the problem is they are always busy & it's hard to submit question.


Discover Islam > Ask About Islam

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...lamCounselingE

Dear visitors, you may submit your questions at 15:00 GMT on Monday, January 22th, 2007. In the meantime, you can browse through our index or through our search engine You are also welcome to join our live dialogues. Thank you for your interest in Ask About Islam. We apologize for any inconveni
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azim
01-22-2007, 02:02 AM
Asalaamu alaykum.

Is it perhaps wise to post such email addresses? They can be abused or mishandled. Perhaps getting the consent of the people first would be better.

I'm just worrying about individuals breaking the trust of respect and politeness.
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Muslim Woman
01-22-2007, 02:11 AM
Originally Posted by azim
Asalaamu alaykum.

Is it perhaps wise to post such email addresses? They can be abused or mishandled. Perhaps getting the consent of the people first would be better.

I'm just worrying about individuals breaking the trust of respect and politeness.
Walaykum as Salaam;

don't worry ; it's easy to block sender :)
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Grace Seeker
01-22-2007, 09:43 AM
I'm a protestant pastor. If anyone has a question that you feel you can't post on the open forum, feel free to send me a PM.
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Malaikah
01-22-2007, 09:46 AM
^are you really? :eek: :uuh: You forgot to mention that before!

So what is a pastor exactly?
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Grace Seeker
01-22-2007, 10:00 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
^are you really? :eek: :uuh: You forgot to mention that before!
I've mentioned it. But I don't make a big deal about it, so you might not have noticed when I did.

So what is a pastor exactly?
Very similar to an Imam.

I am the chief administrator of a my church, with primary responsibilities to lead worship, preach, celebrate the sacraments, and give guidance to others in the church. I call on the sick, visit in hospitals and the shut-in, lead Bible studies, provide direction at planning meetings, develop ministries to help others grow in their own faith, share it with those interested, offer the services of the church to the poor and hurting in our community where we are able to make a difference, and otherwise ensure the smooth functioning of the congregation to accomplish the church's mission and ministry in our community and connect with others who are seeking to do so around the world.

Depending on the denomination or size of congregation, a pastor is usually an ordained clergy person, set apart for that as a specialized ministry within the church. Some however are lay persons. Most are paid employess of their church. A few are volunteers.

In my particular situation, we have a large enough congregation to have a few staff that assist me with some of this workload. In other communities i have lived in in past, I have been the staff person assisting the Senior pastor, or at churches so small that two or three of them came together to cooperatively be served by one pastor.

And all of that doesn't describe it exactly, as it varies from church to church, and even from pastor to pastor, depending on the church's needs and the pastor's personality and unique gifts for ministry. Some pastors even in serve in other locations that are not churches, such as a chaplain in the military, at a college or hospital settings.
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Malaikah
01-22-2007, 10:27 AM
Impressive! You know, you must be the only person on this whole forum who is actually an authority on any religion.

No wonder other Christians here are so impressed by you.

So know I know where to go when I have a question about Christianity, but that doesn't mean I still wouldn't rather call you imam Grace Seeker on day.:D (No offense intended)
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Grace Seeker
01-22-2007, 11:05 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
So know I know where to go when I have a question about Christianity, but that doesn't mean I still wouldn't rather call you imam Grace Seeker on day.:D (No offense intended)
I appreciate the sentiment in which I believe you intended it.:D


Most of my fellow Christians do as good of a job of answering as I do, often better. I'm just a little more wordy -- I'm not sure that is actually a good thing.
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Jayda
01-22-2007, 08:15 PM
hola,

i think this is a good idea... because i do not always know answers to your questions so i rely on a network of people to help... my family is very close to his Eminence Edward Michael Cardinal Egan and sometimes i ask him questions from some of your questions here... i also call a local monastary sometimes...

but i do not think they have time to actually take emails or join this internet webforum... they only person i can think of that might, and truthfully i do not know if he answers questions, would be his Eminence Seán Patrick Cardinal O'Malley has a blog on the internet and is very approachable...

that seems like something that he might do...

the senior members of the Catholic Church are completely dedicated toward Catholic knowedge since they guide the Church... sometimes they have backgrounds in other faiths or communicating with other faiths but as a general rule that is not the purpose they serve... maybe there is a priest that could serve such a function...

Dios te bendiga
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Jayda
01-22-2007, 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I'm a protestant pastor. If anyone has a question that you feel you can't post on the open forum, feel free to send me a PM.
hola Grace Seeker,

are you what is called an "evangelical" protestant? i do not know anything about this.. and i was curious... but i must go right now, my daughters have awoken

Dios te bendiga
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Muslim Woman
01-23-2007, 09:46 AM
Salaam/peace;

To see the answers online , u many visit the website : http://islamtomorrow.com/allah/moon_god.asp


[Do you have questions about Allah?]

Visit other pages on this subject:

IslamAlways.com/Allah

Or send us an email to: AskIslam@aol.com

And remember to include our link at the bottom of all your emails:

IslamAlways.com and Watchislam.com
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Grace Seeker
01-24-2007, 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by Jayda
hola Grace Seeker,

are you what is called an "evangelical" protestant? i do not know anything about this.. and i was curious... but i must go right now, my daughters have awoken

Dios te bendiga
Jayda,

I am "evangelical". But that word is used by so many people in so many different ways, that it has almost lost its meaning for communicating anything. My denomination is United Methodist. When I say that I am evangelical, what I mean is that I believe that communicating the "Good News" about Jesus Christ is the primary task of the Church universal, and thus as a Christian it is what I am called to along with everyone else in Christendom.

Some people mean other things by it. There are those that think of evangelical Christianity in a political sense, i.e. it was evangelical Christians that so strongly supported Bush to be President. (I probably fit that category too, but I would not think of myself as a Republican, and don't think I would vote for Bush again, even if it was possible.)

Others mean almost fundatmentalism by the term -- that there is a litmus test one must pass to be a Christian. And why I do think that there are certain givens within Christianity, I hate the concept of a litmus test -- probably mostly because I don't like the way I see other who categorize themselves in this way use it.

So, I don't think I did much for answering your larger question, but if you have specific details you would like addressed, I would be willing to try.

Benediciones para ti tbm.
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Muslim Woman
01-26-2007, 12:42 AM
Salaam/peace ;

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Jayda,

I am "evangelical".......

what's the main difference between Catholics , Protestants & other groups ?

I read somewhere that majority Christians are Catholics but non-Catholics are sending them to hell. Even ordinary Christians hear this from their Churches .................... how come ????

Priests can not marry but Pastors can , why ? Who decided all these ?

I heard the scandal about Catholic Churches ..... I have not heard anything much about other Churches...... do u think , as Catholics missionaries can not get married , that could be the reason behind those immoral
acts ?

Gay Bishops are allowed in all Churches ? Gay marriage, Gay parade .....what's the stand of ur Church about these issues ?

Sorry , i asked many questions. Take ur time :smile:
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Jayda
01-26-2007, 12:52 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/peace ;




what's the main difference between Catholics , Protestants & other groups ?

I read somewhere that majority Christians are Catholics but non-Catholics are sending them to hell. Even ordinary Christians hear this from their Churches .................... how come ????

Priests can not marry but Pastors can , why ? Who decided all these ?

I heard the scandal about Catholic Churches ..... I have not heard anything much about other Churches...... do u think , as Catholics missionaries can not get married , that could be the reason behind those immoral
acts ?

Gay Bishops are allowed in all Churches ? Gay marriage, Gay parade .....what's the stand of ur Church about these issues ?

Sorry , i asked many questions. Take ur time :smile:
hola Muslim Woman,

there are profound differences between Catholics and Protestants... i do not even know all of them but i know they are so big they cannot recieve sacraments from Catholic Churches...

but just in talking to them i think the biggest difference is that the apostolic Churchs (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox) which were founded by Jesus and his disciples, still believe in sacred tradition... Protestants do not...

this i think is very dangerous because there seems to be a no rules attitude about them... there doesnt seem to be anything about excommunication... meaning that a person is no longer Christian because of some extremely heretical idea or practice, and there does not seem to even be an idea of what is orthodox and what is heretical... it is very hard for me to exactly define what Protestantism is... i do not understand.

to understand the history of this maybe i could put this in islamic terms... it is like how you have an umma that was founded by mohammed and his friends and ruled by the ulema... and one day there start to be major differences in the ulema so certain factions say they disagree with each other and parted ways... but they are still part of the one umma...

this is how the roman catholic church and the other apostolic churchs parted ways... they are still the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church... some followed the other patriarchs (who are like our ulema, they have the highest authority granted by God on all christian matters) and others followed the roman patriarch...

but still we are all one big Catholic and Apostolic Church (soon ojala there will be no more rift)...

okay... some people followed certain ulema and others followed other ulema,then one day imagine that after this rift a group of normal people who are not ulema and have no authority from God and no education... they are just normal everyday muslims, decide to completely leave the entire umma... these are the Protestants...

the Protestants completely separated themselves from the Catholic and Apostolic Church... they have no patriarchs, and no apostolic successor bishops to guide them... they are just normal people who are leading themselves... so they stopped listening to the Patriarchs and follow their own guidance... which is why they believe so many different things...

it is extremely confusing for me... in the Roman Catholic Church and any apostolic Church we can say "this is heresy" "this is orthodoxy" if you believe heresy you must renounce it or be excommunicated, if you believe orthodoxy you are still on the straight path... but since protestants do not believe in excommunication and i think not heresy either i do not know how they could ever effectively combat it... which is why they believe so many heretical things...

like some actually do allow gay ministers, and marriages, and they do not believe the host is the body of Christ, and many many many other very strange things... because there is nobody to say that something is wrong... and if they do the ones who dont believe that will found a new denomination...

okay so as for the Church abuse scandal... i think celibacy is not the problem... because the things i heard were that they were men abusing boys... and if it were just a matter of sexual repression than they would have hurt girls...

i think the problem is that there were not enough review programs to make sure seminarians were mentally healthy people... child predators are difficult to pick out sometimes because they can be charming, or seem normal, which we did not understand in the 20th century... so i think it is important that happens...

abusing children is obviously a sin...

there are no gay bishops, priests or other things like this in the Catholic Church, chastity and sexual purity are requirements for vocation... and the Church condemns homosexual behavior.

Dios te bendiga
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kkawohl1
01-26-2007, 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Most of my fellow Christians do as good of a job of answering as I do, often better. I'm just a little more wordy -- I'm not sure that is actually a good thing.
Question: Many Christians claim to be born-again and thereby claim to have priority to heaven...why?...isn't this promoting prejudice?

Man is flesh with a spirit. Man can not claim to be “born again” because man is not spirit. God is spirit. Man’s spirit always has flaws attached to it so in order to “enter into the kingdom of God” it is cleansed by God; THE SPIRIT IS BORN AGAIN in order to be a part of a perfect unity. Upon the bonding with the spirit host, the spirit continues eternally. Those born-again spirits are the souls of ALL, ALL, All who have lived righteously, not just the Christians or the ones who "claim" to be born again. Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit.' "Having said this, He breathed His last. This is when the spirit of Jesus was "BORN AGAIN" and united with God.

Kurt
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kkawohl1
01-26-2007, 04:17 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/peace ;

Priests can not marry but Pastors can , why ? Who decided all these ?
Man sets the rules, not God. God is self-sufficient and needs nothing from mankind. God's only desire is for mankind to live righteously; this will insure the survival of his soul...not rituals, they are man-made.

Many religions have become the culmination of their own agenda and politics and often promote something other than true spirituality.

Kurt
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glo
01-26-2007, 04:27 PM
Originally Posted by kkawohl1@cox.ne
Question: Many Christians claim to be born-again and thereby claim to have priority to heaven...why?...isn't this promoting prejudice?

Man is flesh with a spirit. Man can not claim to be “born again” because man is not spirit. God is spirit. Man’s spirit always has flaws attached to it so in order to “enter into the kingdom of God” it is cleansed by God; THE SPIRIT IS BORN AGAIN in order to be a part of a perfect unity. Upon the bonding with the spirit host, the spirit continues eternally. Those born-again spirits are the souls of ALL, ALL, All who have lived righteously, not just the Christians or the ones who "claim" to be born again. Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit.' "Having said this, He breathed His last. This is when the spirit of Jesus was "BORN AGAIN" and united with God.

Kurt
Welcome to LI, Kurt. :)

I realise that you may be addressing that question specifically to Grace Seeker, so I hope it's alright for me to butt in .... :D
I found this article in wikipedia, which you may find useful:
To be born again in Christianity is synonymous with spiritual birth and, in some denominational traditions, salvation. The term is used somewhat differently in various Christian traditions.

The Christian use of the term is derived from the third chapter of the Gospel of John, where Nicodemus visits Jesus:
Now there was a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. He came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do apart from the presence of God."
Jesus answered him, "Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born again." Nicodemus said to him, "How can anyone be born after having grown old? Can one enter a second time into the mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."
-John 3:1-5 (New Revised Standard Version)
(Note that some translators consider "born from above" to be a better translation than "born again".)
Consequently, most Christian denominations hold that a person must be born again in some sense in order to be a Christian, and thus that all who are true Christians are in fact born again, whether they describe themselves as such or not.
[...]
The idea of being born again carries with it the theological idea that a Christian is a new creation, given a fresh start by the action of God, freed from a sinful past life and able to begin a new life in relationship with Christ via the Holy Spirit.
This certainly describes my personal perception of 'being born again'
Here is the full article.

Hope this helps.

peace
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kkawohl1
01-26-2007, 06:50 PM
Originally Posted by glo
Welcome to LI, Kurt. :)

The idea of being born again carries with it the theological idea that a Christian is a new creation, given a fresh start by the action of God, freed from a sinful past life and able to begin a new life in relationship with Christ via the Holy Spirit.

Hope this helps.

peace
If Christians follow the examples set by Jesus without promoting exclusivity and prejudice they will achieve their goal of having their soul united with God. My spiritual revelation showed that Jesus was a Messenger Of God and that he has been appropriately called the "Son of God" and "Prince of Peace". (see my website) We are often reminded of the teachings of peace and love from Jesus whose words have survived two millennia. His disciples and followers kept him alive in the memories of all who heard and believed his words. Those who believe that Jesus was a prophet and Messenger of God, rather than the only Son of God will share Heaven equally with all who have lived righteously. We are all children of God and as children of God, we are also sons and daughters of God; God shows no favoritism, He loves all of his children equally.
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Muslim Woman
01-27-2007, 02:10 AM
Salaam/peace ;


Originally Posted by kkawohl1@cox.ne
Man sets the rules, not God. God is self-sufficient and needs nothing from mankind.
----In Islam , we believe that God Almighty sets the rules & God created us ; so that we worship Him alone.


:okay:
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Muslim Woman
01-27-2007, 02:18 AM
Salaam/peace ;


thanks for ur reply.


Originally Posted by Jayda
they have the highest authority granted by God on all christian matters)

--pl.explain more . How do u know that God granted them the highest authority ?



they are just normal people who are leading themselves... so they stopped listening to the Patriarchs and follow their own guidance...

---but they have their Bible for the guidance , don't they ?
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kkawohl1
01-27-2007, 04:37 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/peace ;

----In Islam , we believe that God Almighty sets the rules & God created us ; so that we worship Him alone.


:okay:
We should worship only God. We worship God out of reverence and to further our closeness and spirituality with God. Our main life’s purpose is to gather experiences that will add to the glory of God.

Most monotheistic religious teachings were instituted when lords and kings were the rulers and therefore this concept was adopted within religions. God set the laws of nature which assert that truthfulness and rationality in religions are truths that can be substantiated by science or those that can not be proven to be incorrect. It is a doctrine and proclamation that spiritual transcendence and spiritual interaction, if one believes this to be an actuality, could only be possible between the spiritual existence and the spirit of man. Supernatural acts performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are not capable of existing or transpiring. (transcendology) If God were to interfere in the natural existence he would violate his own infallible laws of nature, which is an impossibility. God created man and the universe like a Master Planner, without interference.

See my website for the perfect structure of God and Heaven.

Kurt
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Jayda
01-27-2007, 01:24 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/peace ;


thanks for ur reply.
hola Muslim Woman,

de nada, it is my joy

--pl.explain more . How do u know that God granted them the highest authority ?
there are two reasons, the first is sacred scripture which promises that the Church cannot be conquered by evil (Matthew 16:18), that the binding and loosing power is given to St. Peter who is steward of the universal Church (Matthew 16:17-19), and finally that Jesus would be with the apostolic sees until the end of time (Matthew 28:20).

so basically what this amounts to is that the Church is Gods vehicle on earth, guided by Him, it is given moral and legal authority over us by Him, and it will never become a servant of evil...

the second reason is a matter of sacred tradition... which means that this kind of power has always been exercised by the Church. We first see it in the First Ecumenical Council, Jerusalem (mentioned in Acts 10) when the blessed St. Paul who was not one of the original apostles was called before the Council of Patriarchs (Bishop St. Peter of Rome, and of Antioch, Bishop St. James the Just, Desposyni, brother of Christ, of Jerusalem, Bishop St. Mark of Alexandria, Bishop St. Andrew of Constantinople) as well as the remaining living Nazrene Apostles.

the blessed St. Paul was preaching that because the new covenant was different from the old covenant, gentile converts did not need to obey kosher laws or become circumsized. St. Peter questioned this and so the Council was convened, the Holy Fathers decided that gentiles did not have to follow the Old Covenant laws, since that was not for gentiles, but did have to follow the Noahide laws.

they also put out something called the apostolic decree, which is the first Church constitution (only councils or synods of bishops may create these) it is commonly referred to as the "Didache," it is still valid today obviously and you can find copies of it online. it is basically a list of things that Christians must do in terms of practices...

and obviously the authority of the Holy Fathers to hold such a council and decide such things comes from their binding and loosing power given to them by Christ (personally, the account of their powers is found in Matthew 16:17-19)

that historic example continued, with bishops ruling the Church in lines of succession, and with Councils and synods using the binding and loosing power even into the present day... there have been many more councils and synods, synods in Rome, the Councils of Nicea, Carthage, and Constantinople so on so fourth into the present day. The most recent Council was the Vatican II Council in the 20th century.

i think it is very interesting how the first Council was held probably in a house under lock and key with only a few dozen men and with the fear of persecution, and perhaps maybe one or two lay people waiting outside the room to know what is decided most too afraid to even come... and almost 2000 years later this is what our Councils look like:



almost 2600 bishops, millions of lay pilgrims, in the most beautiful Cathedral on Earth with even the leaders of Countries anxious to know what is happening... it is amazing how far Christ has lead us.


---but they have their Bible for the guidance , don't they ?
yes... in a manner of speaking they do... the problem as you know is that without authority and guidance people can twist words to mean whatever is pleasing to them to justify anything they wish... this is why Catholics have such rigid definitions of Catholicism and protestants have many many denominations with conflicting views... the authority they follow is themselves...

i think maybe this is like what muslims call "hislam" when certain muslims choose to read the quran in whatever manner is pleasing to them so that they may justify their own desires... sometimes (and i feel this is the same with protestants) they will justify things that are contrary to the scriptures or to the true intended message of God. this is the danger of not having an authority (chosen by God) on matters of interpretation.

they are not totally without guidance... i think that protestants try very hard to understand the Bible as it was meant to be... but from an apostolic (Catholic and Orthodox) perspective even if you accomplish this it is not enough, we believe that sacred scripture and sacred tradition are together the fullness of Revelation from God... it is best you ask Protestants their opinions on this...

Dios te bendiga
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kkawohl1
01-27-2007, 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by Jayda
so basically what this amounts to is that the Church is Gods vehicle on earth, guided by Him, it is given moral and legal authority over us by Him, and it will never become a servant of evil... (incorrect)

The Crusades (1095 -1398) were a series of Christian military expeditions to reclaim the Holy Land from the Muslims. Muslims were considered infidels and a threat to Christianity in the East and the "peace of God" at home. Preachers of the crusade pleaded for all to participate in this holy cause, whether rich or poor, experienced in the military or not. With the cry "Deus Vult!" ("God wills it!") Christians slaughtered Muslims everywhere they went. The fighting was fierce, but the unsuspecting Muslims were no match for the bloodthirsty Crusaders, who killed not only fighting men, but also women and children.

...they are not totally without guidance... i think that protestants try very hard to understand the Bible as it was meant to be... but from an apostolic (Catholic and Orthodox) perspective even if you accomplish this it is not enough, we believe that sacred scripture and sacred tradition are together the fullness of Revelation from God... it is best you ask Protestants their opinions on this...
The Bible, Torah and Koran give us guidelines to live by, they should not be interpreted literally. All writings on earth were written by men...all men are fallible...spiritual interaction is possible only via the spiritual existence and our spirit; then it is translated by a conditioned, fallible mind, hence you have various religions....but, sadly, and to think that we are all just tiny energy bubbles within a larger energy bubble called Earth, which is a small bubble within the universe...and we, intellectual mankind, create our own problems and wars..and kill our own brothers over religious disputes.
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Muslim Woman
01-28-2007, 12:16 AM
salaam/peace;

Originally Posted by kkawohl1@cox.ne

With the cry "Deus Vult!" ("God wills it!") Christians slaughtered Muslims everywhere they went.

----- I did not read the whole Bible , but i m sure blessed Prophet Jesus (p) did not teach it .


Crusaders: Barbarians Who Trampled Their Own Religion


The true message of a religion or a system of belief can be at times distorted by its own pseudo-adherents.

The Crusaders, whose period constitutes a dark episode in Christian history, are an example of this type of distortion.


.....The Crusaders’ barbarism was so excessive that, during the Fourth Crusade, they plundered Constantinople (present-day Istanbul), a Christian city, and stole the golden objects from the churches.


..These masses, who knew almost nothing about their religion, who had probably never read or even seen the Bible once in their lifetime, and who were for the most part completely unaware of the moral values of the Bible, were led into barbarism under the conditioning of Crusaders’ slogans which presented this violence as “God’s Will”.



Employing this fraudulent method, many were encouraged to commit dreadful acts strictly forbidden by the religion.


By Harun Yahya
Translated by: Carl Rossini and Ron Evans
Edited by Aftab A. Malik

A Catalog Record of this book is available from the British Library
ISBN: 0-9540544-1-5
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Muslim Woman
01-28-2007, 12:23 AM
Salaam/peace ;

Jayda: Church cannot be conquered by evil (Matthew 16:18)


---- ok , i understand but how can we know that it's the RCC who fits here but not the other churches ?

Do u believe Pope is sinless ?
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Jayda
01-28-2007, 01:00 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/peace ;

Jayda: Church cannot be conquered by evil (Matthew 16:18)


---- ok , i understand but how can we know that it's the RCC who fits here but not the other churches ?

Do u believe Pope is sinless ?
hola Muslim Woman,

it is not the RCC exclusively... it is all the apostolic Churchs together, the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Oriental Orthodox Churchs form the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, which was the Church Jesus was forming... we know that this is the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church because that is the group of people Jesus was speaking to and promising to build his Church on...

it is not correct to believe the Pope is sinless... no man is sinless, we believe the Pope is "infallible" (is not mistaken in speech) when he makes a solemn declaration on a matter of faith or morality speaking through his office of Pope... this has happened only seven times in history.

we do not believe he is "impeccable" meaning without sin and right about everything "today is tuesday" when it is truly monday...

the Pope has a personal confessor to confess his sins to... a priest. the Patriarchs are chosen from among the best of men though, by the grace of God, and their character is not something a lay person should question.

Dios te bendiga
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Jayda
01-28-2007, 01:14 AM
Originally Posted by kkawohl1@cox.ne
The Bible, Torah and Koran give us guidelines to live by, they should not be interpreted literally. All writings on earth were written by men...all men are fallible...spiritual interaction is possible only via the spiritual existence and our spirit; then it is translated by a conditioned, fallible mind, hence you have various religions....but, sadly, and to think that we are all just tiny energy bubbles within a larger energy bubble called Earth, which is a small bubble within the universe...and we, intellectual mankind, create our own problems and wars..and kill our own brothers over religious disputes.
hola kkawohl1@cox.ne,

the middle ages were a very complicated time, warlords ruled europe and the muslims went through a very brief time 1-200 years of extreme religious intolerance greatly encouraged by a ruling lunatic.

the Pope authorized the Crusades to happen in response to the destruction and desecration of all the Churches in Jerusalem by the muslim ruler "Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah," and the ensuring decades of extreme persecution. this request was relaid to him by the Patriarch of Constantinople and the Emperor of the East.

even the Holy Sepulchre was not spared... pilgrims and Christians were mercilessly killed... the delicate balance of paying extortive taxes for the protection of Christians which was instituted after the arabs conquered Jerusalem 400 years prior was completely swept away... Christians could no longer trust the muslims to protect the Christians living in the Holy Land. these are the events HH Pope Urban II spoke of at Clermont.

but what happened was completely unexpected, instead of a handful of noblemen going to the aid of the Eastern empire in liberating the Holy Land from the muslims, there was a mass exodus of people attempting to escape the poverty and bad conditions of Europe which was a third world place. as with any collection of such people there were innocent but ignorant people mixed with horrible criminals...

these people used the Pope's words as a call to do as they pleased, and they committed horrible crimes in the name of God and the Church, crimes which the late Holy Father John Paul II, the Blessed, apologized for in 2000... not that the Pope was directly responsible for these excesses, but that it was done in his name.

but please if you wish to discuss this create a thread elsewhere...

Dios te bendiga
Reply

Muslim Woman
01-28-2007, 01:30 AM
Salaam/peace ;


Originally Posted by kkawohl1@cox.ne
The Bible, Torah and Koran give us guidelines to live by, they should not be interpreted literally. All writings on earth were written by men...all men are fallible....
A very important Christian missionary converted to Islam and became a major herald for Islam, he was a very active missionary and was very knowledgeable about the Bible.


This man likes mathematics so much, that's why he likes logic. One day, he decided to read the Qur'an to try to find any mistakes that he might take advantage of while inviting Muslims to convert to Christianity.


He expected the Qur'an to be an old book written 14 centuries ago, a book that talks about the desert and so on. He was amazed from what he found.

He discovered that this Book had what no other book in the world has.....he found a full "Sura" (chapter) in the Qur'an named "Mary" that contains a lot of respect to Mary (peace be upon her) which is not the case even in the books written by Christians nor in their Bibles.


He did not find a Sura named after "Fatimah"(the prophet's daughter) nor "Aishah" (the Prophet's wife), may Allah (God) be pleased with both of them.



He also found that the name of Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) was mentioned in the Qur'an 25 times while the name of "Muhammad" (Peace Be Upon Him) was mentioned only 4 times, so he became more confused.


He started reading the Qur'an more thoroughly hoping to find a mistake but he was shocked when he read a great verse which is verse number 82 in Surat Al-Nisa'a (Women) that says:

Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.

The Amazing Qur'an Dr. Miller's famous work.

Download 'The Amazing Qur'an'.

http://www.thetruecall.com/home/modu...p=getit&lid=26
Reply

Jayda
01-28-2007, 01:30 AM
one more thing i forgot to say,

when the Holy Father at Clermont said "Dieu le veut" (he spoke in french, not latin) he was not instituting a warcry... he was quoting the Bible, it is something Christians are supposed to say according to James 4:15 "say if the Lord wills it"

i do not know if you noticed but sometimes i say "ojala" in parenthesis when i express a wish or hope or something i am going to do later in the day... this is a short spanish word for "if God wants it"

but like many other things the worst among Crusaders themselves took the Popes words and turned them into their own desires...

Dios te bendiga
Reply

Jayda
01-28-2007, 01:33 AM
hola Muslim Woman,

if i may ask, Muslims speak of missionaries as though they are bad people... why is this? i was placed as a missionary for many years, i was fortunate to serve the Lord as a nurse in third world countries... the people i worked with always seemed greatful for our presence...

Dios te bendiga
Reply

Muslim Woman
01-28-2007, 09:33 AM
Salaam/peace;



Originally Posted by Jayda
hola Muslim Woman,

if i may ask, Muslims speak of missionaries as though they are bad people... why is this? i was placed as a missionary for many years, i was fortunate to serve the Lord as a nurse in third world countries... the people i worked with always seemed greatful for our presence...

Dios te bendiga


I m afraid , all missionaries are not as good as u were :D

Some or many of them use money , food , jobs , visa , medical facilities to convert others. Some of them even lie.


I met with a young Muslim long ago who became Christian because he was told , not a single Christian will get any punishment from God because of Jesus (p)…..i guess , it’s not the Truth , right ?



we believe the Pope is "infallible" (is not mistaken in speech)

---but I read in a revert story that Popes corrected other Popes rulilng/command . So , it means they are not infallible.



and their character is not something a lay person should question.


----if they do some horrible acts like child molestation , then will it be allowed for lay person to raise questions ? BTW , how so many immoral acts happened inside the Church if Satan can not win there ?



the Pope authorized the Crusades to happen in response to the destruction and desecration of all the Churches in Jerusalem by the muslim ruler

---are u sure , all the Churches were destroyed ? In Islam , it’s not allowed to destroy prayer places. Anyway , if a bad Muslim ruler destroyed some or all (?) Churches , it does not justify the extreme cruelty of the Crusaders.
Reply

Jayda
01-28-2007, 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/peace;







I m afraid , all missionaries are not as good as u were :D

Some or many of them use money , food , jobs , visa , medical facilities to convert others. Some of them even lie.
hola Muslim Woman,

this is very distressing... these missionaries are completely breaching ad gentest (which is a sin). Ad gentes is the Church constitution on missionary activity, it is unquestionable doctrine of faith, nobody can ignore it (anything produced from a Council is sinful to ignore... like Nicea or Constantinope or Vatican II).

first, every Catholic is called to spread the gospel... but not in the same ways. lay auxiliaries are not allowed to teach anything to anyone... our work is to serve in the manner of our particular calling, but make it generally known that we do this as part of a Christian mission... if somebody asks why i am helping them i must truthfully answer "this is what Christ taught and commanded us to do," if they express a desire to know more their questions are directed toward the particular priest that the Church has designated is responsible for actually teaching Christian fundamentals...

23. Although every disciple of Christ, as far in him lies, has the duty of spreading the Faith,(1) Christ the Lord always calls whomever He will from among the number of His disciples, to be with Him and to be sent by Him to preach to the nations (cf. Mark 3:13). Therefore, by the Holy Spirit, who distributes the charismata as He wills for the common good (1 Cor. 12:11), He inspires the missionary vocation in the hearts of individuals, and at the same time He raises up in the Church certain institutes(2) which take as their own special task the duty of preaching the Gospel, a duty belonging to the whole Church.

They are assigned with a special vocation who, being endowed with a suitable natural temperament, and being fit as regards talent and other qualities, have been trained to undertake mission work;(3) or be they autochthonous or be they foreigners: priests, Religious, or laymen. Sent by legitimate authority, they go out in faith and obedience to those who are far from Christ. They are set apart for the work for which they have been taken up (cf. Acts 13:2), as ministers of the Gospel, "that the offering up of the Gentiles may become acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Spirit" (Rom. 15:16).
all Catholics are called to spread the gospel, not all Catholics are called to do mission work, and even within this not all Catholics are called to specifically teach Christian doctrine and initiate catecumens... there are many levels of training and vocation to bring you to that point.

next under absolutely no circumstances is a mission allowed to use the good works associated with it (education, health care, food kitches et cetera) as a threat or allurement:

"The Church strictly forbids forcing anyone to embrace the Faith, or alluring or enticing people by worrisome wiles. By the same token, she also strongly insists on this right, that no one be frightened away from the Faith by unjust vexations on the part of others.(2)"
somebody who is truly interested in embracing Catholicism must go through examinations, classes and several months of seriously thought and prayer (and tests from the Church) to make sure that this is genuine (sometimes they do not even know) to make sure that it is not something that has been forced, or something that is the result of enticement... only then do they become Catecumens... this is not actually a full member of the Church yet, this is somebody who has expressed a desire to become Catholic, has been examined so that we know their reasons are true, and know what being Catholic means... at this phase they are being taught specifically how to be a Catholic in all ways, this is done through classes, the next step after that is to be a full fledged member of the Catholic Church

you do not become Catholic overnight

In accord with the Church's ancient custom, the convert's motives should be looked into, and if necessary, purified.

14. Those who, through the Church, have accepted from God a belief in Christ(3) are admitted to the catechumenate by liturgical rites. The catechumenate is not a mere expounding of doctrines and precepts, but a training period in the whole Christian life, and an apprenticeship duty drawn out, during which disciples are joined to Christ their Teacher. Therefore, catechumens should be properly instructed in the mystery of salvation and in the practice of Gospel morality, and by sacred rites which are to be held at successive intervals,(4) they should be introduced into the life of faith, of liturgy, and of love, which is led by the People of God.

Then, when the sacraments of Christian initiation have freed them from the power of darkness (cf. Col. 1:13),(5) having died with Christ been buried with Him and risen together with Him (cf. Rom. 6:4-11; Col. 2:12-13; 1 Peter 3:21-22; Mark 16:16), they receive the Spirit (cf. 1 Thess. 3:5-7; Acts 8:14-17) of adoption of sons and celebrate the remembrance of the Lord's death and resurrection together with the whole People of God.
futhermore Missionaries of all callings are periodically examined by the Church to be certain that their methods and motives are still pure... that for example lay witnesses are serving in the true capacity for which they were called (in my case as a nurse) and for the true reasons which they are meant to serve (to serve Christ in the manner he told us to, ministering to (in my case) the sick) and to demonstrate Christian behavior). missionaries continue to go through classes and training.

The heralds of the Gospel lest they neglect the grace which is in them, should be renewed day by day in the spirit of their mind (cf. 1 Tim. 4:14; Eph. 4:23; 2 Cor. 4:16). Their Ordinaries and superiors should gather the missionaries together from time to time, that they be strengthened in the hope of their calling and may be renewed in the apostolic ministry, even in houses expressly set up for this purpose.

25. For such an exalted task, the future missionary is to be prepared by a special spiritual and moral training.(5) For he must have the spirit of initiative in beginning, as well as that of constancy in carrying through what he has begun; he must be persevering in difficulties, patient and strong of heart in bearing with solitude, fatigue, and fruitless labor. He will encounter men with an open mind and a wide heart; he will gladly take up the duties which are entrusted to him; he will with a noble spirit adapt himself to the people's foreign way of doing things and to changing circumstances; while in the spirit of harmony and mutual charity, he will cooperate with his brethren and all who dedicate themselves to the same task, so that together with the faithful, they will be one heart and one soul (cf. Acts 2:42; 4:32)(7) in imitation of the apostolic community.

These habits of mind should be earnestly exercised already in his time of training; they should be cultivated, and should be uplifted and nourished by the spiritual life. Imbued with a living faith and a hope that never fails, the missionary should be a man of prayer. Let him have an ardent spirit of power and of love and of prudence (cf. 2 Tim. 1:7). Let him learn to be self - sufficing in whatever circumstances (Phil. 4:11); always bearing about in himself the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may work in those to whom he is sent (2 Cor. 4:10ff.), out of zeal of souls, let him gladly spend all and be spent himself for souls (cf. 2 Cor. 12:15ff.), so that "by the daily practice of his duty he may grow in the love of God and neighbor."(8) Thus obedient to the will of the Father together with Christ, he will continue His mission under the hierarchical authority of the Church
the Church also commands us to respect the culture we are in, and not turn our mission into cultural imperialism (bring the Word, not McDonalds)

Therefore, all missionaries - priests, Brothers, Sisters, and lay folk - each according to their own state, should be prepared and trained, lest they be found unequal to the demands of their future work.(9) From the very beginning, their doctrinal training should be so planned that it takes in both the universality of the Church and the diversity of the world's nations. This holds for all of their studies by which they are prepared for the exercise of the ministry, as also for the other studies which it would be useful for them to learn, that they may have a general knowledge of the peoples, cultures, and religions; not only a knowledge that looks to the past, but one that considers the present time. For anyone who is going to encounter another people should have a great esteem for their patrimony and their language and their customs. It is very necessary for the future missionary to devote himself to missiological studies: that is, to know the teachings and norms of the Church concerning missionary activity, to know along what roads the heralds of the Gospel have run in the course of the centuries, and also what is the present condition of the missions, and what methods are considered more effective at the present time.(8)
also, training and a thorough understanding of ad gentes (and the many other documents which control missionary activities) is not on the job or something done in a clandestine ad hoc basis... the Church commands that missionaries attend special schools, actual classes and genuine instruction before attending a mission.

Some should be more thoroughly prepared in missiological institutes or in other faculties or universities, so that they may be able to discharge special duties more effectively(12) and be a help, by their learning, to other missionaries in carrying on the mission work, which especially in our time presents so many difficulties and opportunities. It is moreover highly desirable that the regional episcopal conferences should have available an abundance of such experts, and that they should make fruitful use of their knowledge and experience in the necessities of their office. Nor should there be wanting some who are perfectly skilled in the use of practical instruments and the means of social communication, the importance of which should be highly appreciated by all.
there is much more to ad gentes, it is worth reading... (here is a link) if you meet with a Catholic missionary who is as you have said above it is very important to know that they are doing something very wrong and you must report this to the bishop or the local mission council immediately... especially with food and medical things... there are numerous organizations repsonsible for medical ethics specifically as it relates to medical Catholic missions... I answered to the Catholic Medical Missionary Board (CMMB), and they are very serious about medical ethics.

medical ethics are something unversal in all medical fields, but on top of this the added ethical responsibilities of ad gentes and a mission make this a very particular field...

I met with a young Muslim long ago who became Christian because he was told , not a single Christian will get any punishment from God because of Jesus (p)…..i guess , it’s not the Truth , right ?
yes this is completely untrue, the only punishment we are gauranteed freedom from punishment of is Original Sin. beyond this Jesus has enabled us to be free from Sin by making himself our "sin offering," as the Jews were commanded to make under the Old Covenant. but just like the Sin Offering in the OT was not the only thing they were required to do in atonement, Catholics must also: confess their sin to God (through the Church), apologise (Oh my God I am heartly sorry for having offended thee), the sacrifice has already been made (Jesus, lamb of God), perform a penance which is some kind of activity that we must do to right our wrong... (a fast, special prayers, charitable works, something like this), and finally repentence which means giving the sin up.

this five step process occurs in the act of confession, that is where Gods saving grace the Lamb of God works with us to bring us forgiveness. Anyone who dies without confessing their sins will go to in some cases purgatory, to be purged of their sins (usually if you have committed a venial sin, or have not complete penance for mortal sins, purgatory is your penance), or you will go to Hell to be punished for your unrepented Cardinal sins.

God is most gracious, most forgiving and most good... He has given His only son to be sacrificed on our behalf just as Abraham was asked to. but He did this only to enable us to once again have forgiveness (our sins were and are too great for a sacrificial goat or lamb, this is why Jesus was needed), we must actively play a role in our forgiveness through thought, heart and action with faith in God.

if we just thing of Jesus as a credit card who already paid the bill so we may now do whatever we want, we are blaspheming because we are abusing his sacrifice for us.

whoever told this person that was lying and leading them into a terrible misfortune... i hope his conscience will guide him back toward right belief, we must all answer for our sins either in this life or in the next. God is just.


---but I read in a revert story that Popes corrected other Popes rulilng/command . So , it means they are not infallible.
Papal infallibility is a specific thing that occurs in only certain circumstances... for example, the Popes have infallibly declared that Mary did not die, she rose into heaven, but the Popes have not infallibly declared that only men can be priests... all the same infallibly declared or not we must obey. Popes frequently perfect the standing doctrines they have inherited from other Popes and Councils, when the situation occurs that there is now greater knowledge or something like that...

I found the conditions for ex cathedra:

the conditions required for ex cathedra teaching are as follows:

1. "the Roman Pontiff"
2. "speaks ex cathedra" ("that is, when in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority….")
3. "he defines"
4. "that a doctrine concerning faith or morals"
5. "must be held by the whole Church" (Pastor Aeternus, chap. 4)
it is something that must be positively identified "i am now speaking infallibly through my office of Pope"

here are the only seven instances of Papal infallibility in the history of Christianity:

* "Tome to Flavian", Pope Leo I, 449, on the two natures in Christ, received by the Council of Chalcedon;
* Letter of Pope Agatho, 680, on the two wills of Christ, received by the Third Council of Constantinople;
* Benedictus Deus, Pope Benedict XII, 1336, on the beatific vision of the just prior to final judgment;
* Cum occasione, Pope Innocent X, 1653, condemning five propositions of Jansen as heretical;
* Auctorem fidei, Pope Pius VI, 1794, condemning seven Jansenist propositions of the Synod of Pistoia as heretical;
* Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX, 1854, defining the immaculate conception; and
* Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII, 1950, defining the assumption of Mary.
i do not think that the person who told you Popes have contradicted or corrected these seven instances was being completely accurate... as far as i know these are standing doctrine, and are considered closed topics by everybody including succeeding Popes... in fact in recent years the Holy Father has met with the Holy Father of Antioch and the Holy Father of Antioch declared an end to their heretical monophysitic beliefs... embracing the infallibly declared decree of 680...

----if they do some horrible acts like child molestation , then will it be allowed for lay person to raise questions ? BTW , how so many immoral acts happened inside the Church if Satan can not win there ?
a Pope would never do such a thing... but it has happened that priests and seminarians have done such things... priests are not infallible, they are servants of the Church, ministering on behalf of the Church to the lay. if they become disobedient to the Church the lay must report this to their bishop so that the bishop can go through the proper channels to punish them and or eject them from the Church (excommunication).

as for the second part of your question, Jesus did not say the Church cannot be struck by Satan, he said that Satan cannot prevail against the Church, so i think it is important to look at the long term... and also consider the circumstances of what has happened, because sometimes people acting in the name of the Church are doing things the Church strictly commands against.

this happened with the Crusades, when the Pope authorized noblemen to go to aid the byzantine empire in returning the Holy Land back to Christianity so that our Churches and pilgrims could be safe again. instead there was a mass exodus of warlords from europe that the Pope could not control, who ignored and sometimes pillaged the eastern empire they were meant to aid, then ravaged everyone in the Holy Land... these were not things that the Pope told them to do...

likewise if you look at the inquisition you see the Pope authorizing inquisitions to determine if heresy is spreading in spain, just like he had authorized in italy (asking people questions and teaching correct orthodoxy... not torture and imprisonment), but in Spain King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella requested that the inquisition simply be authorized by the Pope but not under his control... there was no oversight by the Holy See and it was staffed by secular men answering to the king... and so it became a vehicle of nationalism and revenge used by the royals to keep their country in control rather than to seek our heresy and teach orthodoxy...

in the history of inquisitions (there have been many well before the spanish) no inquisition was in the control of royal leaders or a nation... this was the first and last time ever... in fact inquisitions only have jurisdiction over baptised Catholics, for good reason why would anyone expect a Jewish person or Muslim to accept the authority of the Church or even know what orthodoxy is? the Pope had no idea that the royals intended to use the inquisition as a device of repression...

you can read about this on the wikipedia article...

there is also the selling of indulgences, which according to Protestants is when the Church was literally selling freedom from sin for money so that the Church could build a new Rome... but again it is not as simple as this. indulgences are official documents from the Church that grant you freedom from havig to do a penance, you still must confess and repent. usually they are given if a penance is required but the person is unable to perform it for health reasons (this is often the case near death)...

this is what was being sold... but even then it is complicated the actual selling of indulgences was something being done by a german friar named Johann Tetzel who said "As soon a coin in coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs." and then you would give him money and he would give you a piece of paper saying that you are obsolved of all sins and misdeeds...

this man was a maniac... Luther misunderstood and thought it was something the Pope required or requested so he had his reformation, in truth once Tetzel was found out about (and also his embezzelling and other crimes) he was ordered to not leave his monastary and was stripped of his responsibilites and facing an inquisition when he died of sickness.






---are u sure , all the Churches were destroyed ? In Islam , it’s not allowed to destroy prayer places. Anyway , if a bad Muslim ruler destroyed some or all (?) Churches , it does not justify the extreme cruelty of the Crusaders.
yes all Churches were destroyed... this man was not following islam, he was a lunatic, and the environment he created against christians that lasted for the following decades was not islam but lunacy, but the Pope had no way of knowing whether and he had to protect the pilgrims.

please look this person up Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah.

i think it is very important for me to clarify what my intention of saying this was... the Pope authorized a war in the Holy Land because of the oppression Christians faced beginning a few decades earlier with the intolerable destruction of all Churches including the most holy Sepulchre... the purpose was to aid the eastern empire in retaking the Holy Land so that it could be safe for Christians again since clearly the Muslims could not be trusted to do this anymore...

if you read the speech at clermont he talks about the destruction of the temple and abuses of the Muslim leader, he also calls nobles to aid the east... but instead what happened, something the Pope did not ask for and could not control, was that there was a mass exodus of tens of thousands of barbarian frankish warlords, a complete flood of third world ignorance, into the east... they destroyed and sacked constantinople, the killed everybody in the Holy Land muslims jews and christians and set up for themselves their own kingdom (it was meant to be ruled directly by the Pope, and the eastern empire)... these are not things the Pope wanted, they are unjustifiable crimes and disobedience against the Holy Church...

but communication was very bad in these days, the Pope nor anyone in the Church did not know that this muslim ruler was a lunatic (his advisor created a religion around him called druze), they thought all muslims were doing this and that they had finally decided to kill off all the Christians. and the Pope was not able to control the barbarians in Europe, so he was even less able to control the barbarians when they went to the Holy Land.

these crusaders were disobedient and criminal, nothing justifies their crime, but in the Popes good judgement limited and merciful military intervention was absolutely justified to protect the Christians from the muslims who we had just learned had destroyed the Sepulchre and all the Churchs and were killing all the pilgrims...

i am not defending the Crusades, i am trying to explain what the Churchs true role in the Crusades were, and that the real crimes of the crusades are the result of evil warlords who were doing the same things in Europe beforehand, that did not listen to the Pope then, and did not listen to the Pope when they went to the Holy Land...

Dios te bendiga
Reply

kkawohl1
01-28-2007, 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bible, Torah and Koran give us guidelines to live by, they should not be interpreted literally. All writings on earth were written by men...all men are fallible...spiritual interaction is possible only via the spiritual existence and our spirit; then it is translated by a conditioned, fallible mind, hence you have various religions....but, sadly, and to think that we are all just tiny energy bubbles within a larger energy bubble called Earth, which is a small bubble within the universe...and we, intellectual mankind, create our own problems and wars..and kill our own brothers over religious disputes.


Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/peace ;

He also found that the name of Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) was mentioned in the Qur'an 25 times while the name of "Muhammad" (Peace Be Upon Him) was mentioned only 4 times, so he became more confused.


He started reading the Qur'an more thoroughly hoping to find a mistake but he was shocked when he read a great verse which is verse number 82 in Surat Al-Nisa'a (Women) that says:

Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.

What will it take to build the bridges for religions to unite under the one umbrella of God?

All “Holy Books” were written by men whose spirit interacted has with God, yet each religion claims that their Holy Book is the only correct one.

Apparently one of the stumbling blocks leading to these bridges is Christianity bypassing the Ten Commandments of One God and claiming Jesus as their own Christian God.
1. How does one convince Christians to eliminate their practices of exclusivity and prejudice?

Jews claim that they are God’s chosen people.
1. How does one convince Jews that God does not indulge in favoritism?

Muslims claim that their Qur’an is the most correct because Muhammad was the last messenger of Allah/God.
1. How does one convince Muslims that all messengers had their spirit interact with God so their writings carry equal weight?
2. How does one convince Muslims that God’s love is limitless and God will continue to send his messengers to mankind for as long as the earth exists?

When man resolves these problems, only then can peace prosper amongst religions.

Namaste,
Kurt
Reply

Jayda
01-28-2007, 05:54 PM
namaste
if i may ask do you practice sanatana dharma, baha'i, or something else?

Dios te bendiga
Reply

kkawohl1
01-28-2007, 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by Jayda
namaste

if i may ask do you practice sanatana dharma, baha'i, or something else?

Dios te bendiga
I revere all religions equally that promote peace, justice and compassion for their fellow men. Please see my website.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
01-28-2007, 07:47 PM
G-d stopped sending messengers for a reason and sent many for a reason. Over 100 were sent over time. Now its up to people follow the correct path and obey G-ds Law. According to Islam of course.
Reply

snakelegs
01-28-2007, 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by kkawohl1@cox.ne
Quote:
Originally Posted by kkawohl1@cox.ne The Bible, Torah and Koran give us guidelines to live by, they should not be interpreted literally. All writings on earth were written by men...all men are fallible...spiritual interaction is possible only via the spiritual existence and our spirit; then it is translated by a conditioned, fallible mind, hence you have various religions....but, sadly, and to think that we are all just tiny energy bubbles within a larger energy bubble called Earth, which is a small bubble within the universe...and we, intellectual mankind, create our own problems and wars..and kill our own brothers over religious disputes.
namaste,
as an agnostic, i certainly agree that there is no such thing as The One
True Religion and that this causes tremendous problems.
i think your motives are good....but you are acting as one more preacher in the World Preaching Arena. your above paragraph is nothing more than yet one more religious assertion.
also, there are many many millions who are not jews, christians or muslims, as i'm sure you know.
(i think i'm a little cranky today. blame tania - it's all her fault for that hairless kitten!)
Reply

FollowingAlhuda
01-28-2007, 10:28 PM
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Reply

Muslim Woman
01-29-2007, 12:20 AM
Salaam/peace ;

Originally Posted by Jayda
hola Muslim Woman,

this is very distressing... these missionaries are completely breaching ad gentest (which is a sin)..........

thanks sis for ur patience & reply. I saved ur post & Insha Allah will read carefully later.

Bye.
Reply

Muslim Woman
01-29-2007, 12:56 AM
Salaam/peace ;


[QUOTE=kkawohl1@cox.ne;639432]Quote:
Originally Posted by kkawohl1@cox.ne

.....What will it take to build the bridges for religions to unite under the one umbrella of God?

-----Dr. Zakir Naik gave a good proposal while delivering lectures to his Hindu , Christian & Muslim audiences. That is all major holy books tell the followers to obey one God only. Let's come to an agreement first that we will follow one God.



About differences , we will come later when we will understand the similarities between the religions.

Jews claim that they are God’s chosen people.

1. How does one convince Jews that God does not indulge in favoritism?

---- regarding holy Quran & holy Taurat ( Torah ) , It is true that Jews were blessed in the past . When i read the verses regarding the blessings of God on Jews , i feel jealous .

But , Of Course , it does not mean that ALL Jews will go to heaven or no other persons/nations won't be blessed by the God Almighty.


U just can't dismiss a claim that is supported by 2 major holy books . What we can try to tell Jews that pl. learn from the past mistakes.

Jews were blessed & also were punished several times. It's a wonder , how Jews in the past repeatedly disobeyed God , got punishment & again God forgave & blessed them .


If u read Quran , u will find that when Jews told Muslims that no punishment will touch the Jews after death & they will surely enter paradise etc etc , then God sent revealtion to the last Prophet (p) & told him to ask Jews :


The Congregation

Say: O you who are Jews, if you think that you are the favorites of Allah to the exclusion of other people, then invoke death If you are truthful.

[62.6]


1. How does one convince Muslims that all messengers had their spirit interact with God so their writings carry equal weight?
---Muslimd do respect ALL the Prophets (p) & believe that many of them were blessed with holy Books. The difference is previous holy books were corrupted ; so we have to follow the final uncorrupted holy Book.

And they say: Be Jews or Christians, you will be on the right course. Say: Nay! (we follow) the religion of Ibrahim, the Hanif, and he was not one of the polytheists. [2.135]



And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion.

Say: Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper. 2.120

Sorry , we have no choice but to follow the Quran.
Insha Allah ( God Willing ) ; no one will be able to convince us :happy: :D against Quran.


2. How does one convince Muslims that God’s love is limitless and God will continue to send his messengers to mankind for as long as the earth exists?

--------what proof do u have ?

When man resolves these problems, only then can peace prosper amongst religions.
----Let us fear God . Before claiming anything , let's think that if we can justify our claims on the Last Day in front of God Almighty or not .

God Willing , we will be blessed in the life hereafter if somehow can't manage Peace here.
Reply

dougmusr
01-29-2007, 01:21 AM
Jews were blessed & also were punished several times. It's a wonder , how Jews in the past repeatedly disobeyed God , got punishment & again God forgave & blessed them .
I think it is important to ask a rhetorical question (this is for all of us, not just Muslim Woman). Have you sinned since you reverted/converted? Have you committed the same sin more than once and asked God's forgiveness for it since you reverted/converted? If the answer is yes, then don't be surprised with Israel's experience, rather be thankful for God's forgiveness.
Reply

rav
01-29-2007, 01:47 AM
---- regarding holy Quran & holy Taurat ( Torah ) , It is true that Jews were blessed in the past . When i read the verses regarding the blessings of God on Jews , i feel jealous .

But , Of Course , it does not mean that ALL Jews will go to heaven or no other persons/nations won't be blessed by the God Almighty.


U just can't dismiss a claim that is supported by 2 major holy books . What we can try to tell Jews that pl. learn from the past mistakes.

Jews were blessed & also were punished several times. It's a wonder , how Jews in the past repeatedly disobeyed God , got punishment & again God forgave & blessed them .


If u read Quran , u will find that when Jews told Muslims that no punishment will touch the Jews after death & they will surely enter paradise etc etc , then God sent revealtion to the last Prophet (p) & told him to ask Jews :


The Congregation

Say: O you who are Jews, if you think that you are the favorites of Allah to the exclusion of other people, then invoke death If you are truthful.

[62.6]
:giggling: :giggling: :giggling: ;D ;D :giggling: ;D :giggling:

Sigh.

You first assert that you cannot fathom how G-d could forgive someone for his sins. Then you make a claim and say it is truth because the Quran said it. The Quran says "O Jews" like it is refering to all people when G-d clearly says and the Jews clearly believe all Jews will not go to heaven.

All Israel has a share in the world to come. As it reads [Is. IX. 21]: "And thy people-they will all be righteous, for ever shall they possess the land, the sprout of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may glorify myself." The following have no share in the world to come: He who says that there is no allusion in the Torah concerning resurrection, and he who says that the Torah was not given by Heaven, and a follower of Epicurus R. Aqiba added, him who reads books of the Hizunim and him who mumbles over a wound, reciting the verse [Ex. xv. 26]: "I will put none of those diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians; for I the L-rd am thy physician." Abba Shaul said: Also he who speaks out the Holy Name with its vocals.
(Sanhedrin 90a)
Reply

kkawohl1
01-29-2007, 04:02 AM
[quote=kkawohl1@cox.ne;639432]Quote:
Originally Posted by kkawohl1@cox.ne

.....What will it take to build the bridges for religions to unite under the one umbrella of God?
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Let's come to an agreement first that we will follow one God.
Good answer.

Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
---Muslim do respect ALL the Prophets (p) & believe that many of them were blessed with holy Books. The difference is previous holy books were corrupted ; so we have to follow the final uncorrupted holy Book.
All Holy Books have inconsistencies…”Google” Quran inconsistencies. Only when one recognizes this, only then can the spirit be open for direct interaction with the spirit of God.

Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Insha Allah ( God Willing ) ; no one will be able to convince us against Quran. ---Muslimd do respect ALL the Prophets (p) & believe that many of them were blessed with holy Books. The difference is previous holy books were corrupted ; so we have to follow the final uncorrupted holy Book.
All Holy Books lead our spirit to God; none of their authors intended to corrupt the message from God. If one states, “Ours is the final uncorrupted holy Book”, one limits God and this is inconsistent.

Quote: kkawohl
2. How does one convince Muslims that God’s love is limitless and God will continue to send his messengers to mankind for as long as the earth exists?

Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
--------what proof do u have ?
My spirit has witnessed it and I am staking the survival of my soul on this…spiritual interaction is a private affair between the spirit of God and our spirit…anyone who places their mind in stasis and desires to have this spiritual interaction to the exclusion of life itself, can experience it.

Quote: kkawohl
When man resolves these problems, only then can peace prosper amongst religions.

Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
----Let us fear God . Before claiming anything , let's think that if we can justify our claims on the Last Day in front of God Almighty or not . God Willing , we will be blessed in the life hereafter if somehow can't manage Peace here.
God does not require fear from mankind, only love. God does not judge anyone. We are totally responsible for the survival of our soul. Righteous living insures the soul’s survival; evil anesthetizes the conscience and consistent evil kills the spirit/soul.

Namaste,
Kurt
Reply

kkawohl1
01-29-2007, 04:17 AM
Originally Posted by rav
"...all who hate me [G-d], love death."
(Proverbs 8:36)

Remind you of anyone?
Sure...God's intellect comared to man is like that of a father with his two year old son. The son will at times not listen and can say, "Father, I hate you" and the father will always love his son.
Reply

rav
01-29-2007, 04:40 AM
Originally Posted by kkawohl1@cox.ne
Sure...God's intellect comared to man is like that of a father with his two year old son. The son will at times not listen and can say, "Father, I hate you" and the father will always love his son.
Obviously you do not understand the analogy. I would love to point you towards Osama Bin ladens speech on how he "loves death", but it is against the forum rules.
Reply

kkawohl1
01-29-2007, 06:29 AM
Originally Posted by rav
Obviously you do not understand the analogy.
Oops:imsad In my haste I misread...and baste myself...like a turkey stuffed with paste...or whatever:hiding:
Reply

Muslim Woman
01-29-2007, 09:15 AM
Salaam/peace;


Originally Posted by Jayda
hola Muslim Woman,

this is very distressing... these missionaries are
.......................Dios te bendiga

I heard many more allegations against Christian missionaries….don’t know if these are true or rumour.

One is that NGO’s are funded by missionaries. In the school run by NGO’s , they tell Muslim kids to close eyes & ask chocolates from Allah. Then they say , look , did u get it ? Naturally , kids say ‘ no’ .

Then they again tell them to close eyes & this time put chocolates in front of them. Then they ask , now tell us who is more powerful , Allah or Jesus (p) ?



Another allegation is they appoint Muslim women , give them cycle or motor-cycle as office transport , tell them to wear Shirt & Pant (Normally Muslim women don’t wear this dress in a Muslim majority country) . Thus , they are trying to make women shameless .


In disaster time about 1 or 2 years back , I heard , in India , missionaries refused to give food when villagers did not want to convert etc , etc.



If these are false allegations, then I think , Church should try to clarify the matter by publishing Do’s & Dont’s of missionaries in the media ; so that non-Christians can get a clear idea. Also , they can know where to complain if missionaries lies or misuse the money .

the only punishment we are gauranteed freedom from punishment of is Original Sin

-----I read that many Christians believe if anybody dies before confirmation ( ??? or baptism …. forgot the correct word :embarrass ) , then s/he will go to hell.

So, even if a baby dies , then because of the original sin as s/he was born in sin , will be thrown in to hell.
Reply

Muslim Woman
01-29-2007, 03:44 PM
Salaam/peace;


kkawohl1@cox.ne: Jews claim that they are God’s chosen people.
1. How does one convince Jews that God does not indulge in favoritism?

Muslim Woman :.....regarding holy Quran & holy Taurat ( Torah ) , It is true that Jews were blessed in the past .................

Originally Posted by rav
:giggling: :giggling: :giggling: ;D ;D :giggling: ;D :giggling:

.........
Attn: non-Muslims.



Here is commentary of related Quranic verses on Jews . ( I m not writing this post to hurt anyone's feelings....just to make u
understand how Quran described about Jews in the past . )


Before complaining that Quran is harsh on Jews , pl. read Jewish holy Book & see what is there about Jews past sins.
U may visit this link


similarities between Muslims and Jewish holy books


In NT , Jesus (p) also scolded Jews. So , don’t think that only Quran criticised Jews.


Tafsir Ibn Kathir

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=62&tid=53775


Admonishing the Jews and challenging Them to wish for Death


Allah the Exalted admonishes the Jews who were entrusted with the Tawrah and were ordered to abide by it. However, they did not abide by it, and this is why Allah resembled them to the donkey that carries volumes of books.


Surely, when the donkey carries books, it will not understand what these books contain because it is only carrying these books using its strength.


This is the example of those who were entrusted with the Tawrah; they read its letter but did not understand its meanings nor abided by them. Rather, they even corrupted and changed the Tawrah.


Therefore, they are worse than the donkey, because the donkey cannot understand. They, on the other hand, could have understood using their minds, but their minds were of no benefit.

This is why Allah the Exalted said in another Ayah,


[أُوْلَـئِكَ كَالأَنْعَـمِ بَلْ هُمْ أَضَلُّ أُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْغَـفِلُونَ]


(They are like cattle, nay even more astray; those! They are the heedless.) (7:179), and said,

[بِئْسَ مَثَلُ الْقَوْمِ الَّذِينَ كَذَّبُواْ بِـَايَـتِ اللَّهِ وَاللَّهُ لاَ يَهْدِى الْقَوْمَ الظَّـلِمِينَ]


(How bad is the example of people who deny the Ayat of Allah. And Allah does not guide the people who are wrongdoers.) Allah the Exalted said,


Say: "O you Jews! If you pretend that you are friends of Allah, to the exclusion of other people, then long for death if you are truthful.'') meaning,


`if you claim that you are on the correct guidance and that Muhammad (p) and his Companions are being led astray, then invoke Allah to bring death to the misguided group among the two, if you are truthful in your claim.'



Allah said, (But they will never long for it, because of what their hands have sent before them!)

meaning because of the disbelief, injustice and sins that they commit, (And Allah knows well the wrongdoers.)


We mentioned this challenge to the Jews before in Surat Al-Baqarah, where Allah said,




(Say: "If the home of the Hereafter with Allah is indeed for you specially and not for others, of mankind, then long for death if you are truthful.''



But they will never long for it because of what their hands have sent forth before them. And Allah is Aware of the wrongdoers. And verily, you will find them the greediest of mankind for life and (even greedier) than those who ascribe partners to Allah.




One of them wishes that he could be given a life of a thousand years. But the grant of such life will not save him even a little from punishment.

And Allah is Seer of what they do.) (2:94-96)


We explained these meanings there, stating that the challenge was for the Jews to invoke Allah to destroy the misguided group, either they or their enemies…….
Reply

Jayda
01-29-2007, 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/peace;

I heard many more allegations against Christian missionaries….don’t know if these are true or rumour.

One is that NGO’s are funded by missionaries. In the school run by NGO’s , they tell Muslim kids to close eyes & ask chocolates from Allah. Then they say , look , did u get it ? Naturally , kids say ‘ no’ .

Then they again tell them to close eyes & this time put chocolates in front of them. Then they ask , now tell us who is more powerful , Allah or Jesus (p) ?



Another allegation is they appoint Muslim women , give them cycle or motor-cycle as office transport , tell them to wear Shirt & Pant (Normally Muslim women don’t wear this dress in a Muslim majority country) . Thus , they are trying to make women shameless .


In disaster time about 1 or 2 years back , I heard , in India , missionaries refused to give food when villagers did not want to convert etc , etc.



If these are false allegations, then I think , Church should try to clarify the matter by publishing Do’s & Dont’s of missionaries in the media ; so that non-Christians can get a clear idea. Also , they can know where to complain if missionaries lies or misuse the money .
i think maybe some of the problem is that not all missionaries are Catholic... most Catholic missions are decades or centuries old, they are established schools and hospitals in their communities or established charities. Catholic aid agencies usually handle things like natural disasters or wars, this is not the same as missionary activity since the purpose is not spreading the gospel but instead fulfilling the beatitudes (commandments given by Jesus at the sermon on the mount). they are just charities... rarely do people who benefit from them even find out that it is a Catholic organization, the organizations do not hire Catholics exclusively (but Catholics are greatly encouraged to participate), and there is no accompanying mission theological group.

the thing that really ties them to the Church is that the funding comes from the Church and they are sometimes founded or supported by a particular religious order...

so i am not even sure why a Catholic mission would even be operating in an indian disaster zone, missions are set up to become a long term integrated part of the community... the quick response "bandaids" are the charities but they are focused only on helping the people in that area... very often proselytizing is forbidden since the people running the Charities do not have any background, the governments allowing them in do not allow it, and the Church likes to have complete control over mission activities...

also, the things you are talking about are completely against Church doctrine... not just ad gentes... performing false magic tricks like making chocolate disappear is enticement which breaks ad gentes, and Catholics are not allowed to (seriously) claim to have magical powers (i know it sounds ridiculous to have to say such a thing)... magic is forbidden in the bible and by the Church.

skirts and pants have nothing to do with Catholicism... i am not sure why anybody would do something like that... the Church only says that we must dress modestly, especially on Sundays, and there is a dress code for meeting bishops or the Pope (black) but that is all... things like skirts and pants are cultural to the west but missionaries are commanded and taught to respect and become a part of the culture they are working in.

the rules regulating missionary activity are usually posted with the mission, the office of the legate in charge of international missionary activity, most catholic charities, any local Church and have been published numerous times since Vatican II (which was big international news)... i have worked in many places abroad and i do not think i have ever experienced or heard of the events you are describing... are you sure these are Catholic missions? it seem so shocking, the things they are doing are heretical and the things they are saying are even more heretical i could not even imagine what a horrible person you would have to be to say Christ died so you wont ever be punished for your sins... it is total heresy...

i am suspicious though, it sounds charismatic evangelical (who i do not trust), i have experienced in latin america pentacostals who are attempting to convert Latinos to what they are. they entice starving people with food and promises, and then invite them to their services where they perform magic tricks like public exorcisms and faith healing... which confuse many people who are already ignorant... i have never actually seen them use health care or food deprivation but from what i have seen it would not surprise me.

i have had a very negative opinion of protestants since i saw these things... i feel their charisma is fake, that they ignore christian responsibilities, worship wealth, and make a mockery of serious rites and rituals (like exorcism, which needs cardinal level approval and a very long inquiry before it is even performed, which is a clandestine secret ritual anyway... not a show, and takes much prayer and devotion).

only recently in talking to people like glo and my husband who are both different kinds of protestants has my opinion changed a little... i do not think they are all the same, but there is a very very wicked movement of people that is doing these, pentecostals especially i could never trust or take seriously...

but anyway are you able to find out if this is a Catholic mission doing these things (and if they are indeed not just rumor) i must report them to my bishop immediately so that the Church can open an investigation... i think maybe an email to the CDF (Holy Inquisition) about the things these people are teaching non Catholics would be required too... they might want to open an investigation... these things you are saying are heresy and cannot be taught by representatives of the Church, they must be stopped...


-----I read that many Christians believe if anybody dies before confirmation ( ??? or baptism …. forgot the correct word :embarrass ) , then s/he will go to hell.

So, even if a baby dies , then because of the original sin as s/he was born in sin , will be thrown in to hell.
baptism is when the original sin is washed away and you are given to God... it is like a mark that means you belong to God. confirmation is what you do when you come of age in the Church and go through a ceremony in which you as an adult elect to remain a member of the Church.

as for Children who die before they can have the opportunity to be baptised the Church teaches this:

As regards children who have died without baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God, who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children, which caused him to say, 'Let the children come to me, do not hinder them' [Mark 10:14, cf. 1 Tim. 2:4], allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy baptism.
we do not believe God creates life simply for it to be condemned to Hell, regardless of our Original sin and our personal sins throughout our lifetimes, God has always provided an alternative to sin for us to choose... without choices free will means nothing...

for those who for one circumstance or another never get to make this kind of choice we believe God will show them mercy. this also holds true for people who for no fault of their own have never heard the gospels, do not know about God or have never heard of Jesus... that is called invincible ignorance.
Reply

Muslim Woman
01-30-2007, 12:43 AM
Salaam/peace;


Originally Posted by rav
Sounds like Muhammad was in a rage of jealousy of the Jews when writing those verses.
&&


Ok , who “ was in a rage of jealousy of the Jews when writing the following verses”?



Listen to this Chapter in Hebrew


http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt35b09.htm



Nehemiah Chapter 9

… But they and our fathers dealt proudly, and hardened their neck, and hearkened not to Thy commandments……


Yea, when they had made them a molten calf, and said: 'This is thy God that brought thee up out of Egypt, and had wrought great provocations; …………………..

and slew Thy prophets
Reply

Muslim Woman
01-30-2007, 02:11 AM


Salaam/peace;

[QUOTE=kkawohl1@cox.ne;639842]
Originally Posted by kkawohl1@cox.ne
Quote:


All Holy Books have inconsistencies…”Google” Quran inconsistencies


----huh very funny :p



Do u know Catholic church appointed a Frenchman Dr. Maurice Buccaille a catholic to find faults with Quran & what was the result ?


If u don't know , visit this link.

Story Of Qur'anic Haman. A Curious Pope And His Confessor!



http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...confessor.html



PS. sorry sis Jayda , i have no intention to hurt ur
feelings :nervous:
Reply

rav
01-30-2007, 04:29 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/peace;




&&


Ok , who “ was in a rage of jealousy of the Jews when writing the following verses”?



Listen to this Chapter in Hebrew


http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt35b09.htm



Nehemiah Chapter 9

… But they and our fathers dealt proudly, and hardened their neck, and hearkened not to Thy commandments……


Yea, when they had made them a molten calf, and said: 'This is thy God that brought thee up out of Egypt, and had wrought great provocations; …………………..

and slew Thy prophets
What does that have to do with anything? That is a recollection of what occured. A proof the Tanakh is uncorrupted! The Jews who "corrupted" as you so naivly say, would have erased that part wouldn't they have? I mean, no empire told of its loses in wars, or failures. Yet Israel tells its own.

How about readin on! In chapter 10:

And yet for all this we make a sure covenant, and subscribe it;
(10:1)

Since your into Tanakh text how about reading these:

Jeremiah 3:12 Return, O backsliding Israel, says the L-rd. I will not let My anger rest upon you, for I am pious, says the L-rd; I will not bear a grudge forever.

Jeremiah 31:2 From long ago, the L-rd appeared to me; With everlasting love have I loved you; therefore have I drawn you to Me with loving-kindness. 3. Yet again will I rebuild you, then you shall be built, O virgin of Israel; yet again shall you be adorned with your tabrets, and you shall go out with the dances of those who make merry.

Jeremiah 31:9. Hear the word of the L-rd, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock.

Jeremiah 32:34. So said the L-rd, Who gives the sun to illuminate by day, the laws of the moon and the stars to illuminate at night, Who stirs up the sea and its waves roar, the L-rd of Hosts is His name. 35. If these laws depart from before Me, says the L-rd, so will the seed of Israel cease being a nation before Me for all time. 36. So said the L-rd: If the heavens above will be measured and the foundations of the earth below will be fathomed, I too will reject all the seed of Israel because of all they did, says the L-rd.

The last one is really good -- because Jeremiah clearly says that "if the laws of the moon and stars cease" He will reject Israel.

Have the moon and stars have ceased.

Have the heavens have been measured.

Have the foundations of earth have been fathomed.

If not then G-d has not rejected Israel.

______

Leviticus 26:44
Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the L-RD their G-d.

1 Samuel 12:22
For the sake of his great name the L-RD will not reject his people, because the L-RD was pleased to make you his own.

Psalm 94:14
For the L-RD will not reject his people; he will never forsake his inheritance.

Isaiah 41:8
8 "But you, O Israel, my servant,
Jacob, whom I have chosen,
you descendants of Abraham my friend,
9 I took you from the ends of the earth,
from its farthest corners I called you.
I said, 'You are my servant';
I have chosen you and have not rejected you.

Zechariah 10:6
6 "I will strengthen the house of Judah
and save the house of Joseph.
I will restore them
because I have compassion on them.
They will be as though
I had not rejected them,
for I am the L-RD their G-d
and I will answer them.


Deuteronomy 4:31 for the L-RD thy G-d is a merciful G-d; He will not fail thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which He swore unto them.


Oh wait, only like to quote some parts of the Tanakh? The Talmud tells us about your nature:

And even if he says that the whole Torah is by Heaven except such and such an explanation, such an a fortiori conclusion, such an analogy of expression, they are considered as despising the word of the L-rd.
Reply

Muslim Woman
01-30-2007, 10:03 AM


Salaam/peace;

Muslims all over the world are fasting today ( not compulsory ) & offering special prayer; because we believe on this day God forgave Adam (P) , Jesus (p) was saved from death & raised up , Moses (p) crossed the sea , Abraham (p) was saved from fire etc ,etc.

Karbala tragedy ( death of grandson of Prophet Muhammed pbuh ) is so tragic that other stories are ignored sometimes.

Anyway ,Jews & Christians participants , did u know about that ?
Reply

Jayda
01-30-2007, 05:22 PM
hola Muslim Woman,

it occurred to me that in talking about the crusades i neglected to show in what capacity the crusaders disobeyed the Church (other than by not doing the mission they were given, not protecting the eastern empire, establishing their own kingdom of Jerusalem rather than giving it to the pope and emperor, and not communicating with Rome that the official legate chosen by the Pope had died of disease)

specifically with regards to the worst things the crusaders did they violated the Church's doctrines and commandments. our war doctrine is called "Just War doctrine" and like all doctrine we must obey. it was first articulated by St. Augustine in the fourth century and is found in modern catechisms in section 2302 onward... the modern Just War doctrine has been adapted to include specific 20th century words like "genocide" or modern weapons like nuclear weapons or biological weapons.

the doctrine that Crusaders would have had to follow was the Augustinian doctrine that St. Aquinas commented on in summa theologica at the specified link i provided...

the four essential elements for a just war are:

The war is just in intent. There must be a high-minded reason to start the war.
The war is just in disposition. Hatred of the enemy is not an ingredient.
The war is just in auspices. A lawful authority has declared the war.
The war is just in its conduct. The means used are just and non-combatants are spared.
the Holy Father Urban II, the blessed, gave the authority to begin war in the Holy Land, because he was the lawful authority (item 2 in augustines doctrine), and he established the reasons as protecting the pilgrims, restoring the Churches and helping the eastern Christians (items 1, 2) and he established a legate (a messenger from the Pope, representing him abroad) to command the crusader forces. the legate a latere (which is the highest kind of messenger, a cardinal), was Adhemar of Le Puy, who was bishop of Puy en Velay and general of all crusader forces. he was ordered to begin the Crusades on the feast of the Assumption of Mary and would have been responsible for all military decisions and making sure everything was in line with Catholic doctrine, before he could begin a lunatic named Peter the Hermit took 100,000 peasants women and children on the Crusade six months before it was meant to be taken... almost all died of starvation, they never reached Jerusalem and those that were not killed, enslaved or forced to convert were sent back to Constantinople where they were not recieved.

when the crusades began it was still lead by Bishop Adhemar, who because of his title and authority was both spiritual and military leader of the Crusade. he was the leader during the time that the crusaders took back Antioch, the muslim governor who was aware they were coming, was a terrible man who imprisoned the Patriarch (Pope) of Antioch (one of the five most important men in Christianity) and exiled all of the Greeks and Armenian Christians...

there was a very large seige laid against antioch for a long time and the crusaders almost starved, during that time the Fatimids came (antioch was under the Turks) and were treated very well given gifts and not abused, like the crusaders did later in the crusades after adhemar died. nothing was worked out but the fatimids left in peace.

they finally took the city in a very large battle, the turkish garrison was killed by the crusaders and the citizens because the turks were so cruel, the crusaders entered the city and muslim citizens were spared, and their property left alone. acting for the Pope bishop Adhemar reinstated the Patriarch and they awaited a retaliatory strike from the larger army of muslim turks coming back to take the city.

they attacked, and lost and the crusaders kept Antioch but disease began and Adhemar died as a consequence... this is very important because the crusaders did not inform the Pope immediately that his legate had died, instead they kept control of the crusader armies and made Peter the Hermit (who was still alive from his failed crusade) their new leader... as i said before Peter was insane, he had visions of gradure and promised things he could not give, he even claimed that the crusade was his idea...

under his spritual guidance (a mere friar) and the military guidance of the warlords muslims immediately began to be killed by the crusaders, and they openly stole food from them to begin their assault on Jerusalem... by the time they reached Jerusalem they had no papal leadership to make sure they followed the doctrine of war and they attacked and massacred every muslim christian and jew living in the city, committed many atrocities and then elected for themselves a new Patriarch of Jerusalem (Arnulf) who would be their puppet bishop supporting their secular kingdom of Jerusalem rather than the planned theocracy.

when the Pope learned of these things he was incensed and sent a Papal appointed Patriarch Dagobert of Pisa, who came to instill a theocracy... upon coming to Jerusalem he quickly learned the knights were loyal to their king and no longer the Pope so he was mistreated and ignored, he was able to work out a deal with the king that they would turn the Holy Land back to the Pope after they conquered Egypt (where they could have their kingdom, except alexandria), but that never happened, Dagobert refused to crown a new king because the old died, and went back to Rome to report the mutiny but in his absense the crusaders established a new Patriarch who would be their puppet... the Pope and Patriarch Dagobert were furious and he was sent back, when he returned he reestablished his claim to his office but that was all... from then on out the Papal appointed Patriarchs and legates were ignored by the Crusaders, and the Crusaders did as they pleased...

the Just war doctrine and any other doctrine that did not please these warlords were ignored, and the messages from Rome were ignored... when the Pope called for more crusades to control the previous crusaders and try to reestablish byzantine control the situation became worse, the crusaders sacked Constantinople, destroyed the Holy Land and began banking in interest (which was illegal). it became so bad the Popes ended the crusades, disbanded the Templars and put the Hospitallers directly under vatican control, the French Knights were all sent back to France and commanded to remain there.

partly because of the french knights and crusaders disloyalty St. Thomas Aquinas revised St. Augustines just war doctrine to the following

The war is authorized by legitimate authority. That is, on the authority of the sovereign.
The cause must be just and the belligerents must have rightful intentions.
The war is declared as a last resort, after other means have failed.
The means used in the war are just.
There is a reasonable chance of success.
The good achieved in victory will outweigh the evil produced during the conflict.
adding that it must be a last resort and have a reasonable chance of success, so that in the future should a sacrum belli be called for there would not be such problems.

Dios te bendiga
Reply

Jayda
01-30-2007, 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

Salaam/peace;

Muslims all over the world are fasting today ( not compulsory ) & offering special prayer; because we believe on this day God forgave Adam (P) , Jesus (p) was saved from death & raised up , Moses (p) crossed the sea , Abraham (p) was saved from fire etc ,etc.

Karbala tragedy ( death of grandson of Prophet Muhammed pbuh ) is so tragic that other stories are ignored sometimes.

Anyway ,Jews & Christians participants , did u know about that ?
hola Muslim Woman,

gracias, this is very interesting... but if i may ask a question what was Adam forgiven for? i thought muslims believe he was a prophet and prophets were sinless...

Dios te bendiga
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
01-30-2007, 07:23 PM
When Adam and Eve(pbut) disobeyed G-d. They both repented and G-d forgave them. I'm guessing thats the only reason that existed.
Reply

Jayda
01-30-2007, 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
When Adam and Eve(pbut) disobeyed G-d. They both repented and G-d forgave them. I'm guessing thats the only reason that existed.
gracias Tayyaba,

so does this mean prophets in islam can commit sins (but they ask for forgiveness and repent)? or was this only Adam and Eve?

Dios te bendiga
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
01-30-2007, 07:35 PM
^^ Lol, I don't know really. I won't attempt to answer otherwise I might give out the wrong info...
Maybe someone else can answer for you :)

Peace
Reply

Jayda
01-30-2007, 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
^^ Lol, I don't know really. I won't attempt to answer otherwise I might give out the wrong info...
Maybe someone else can answer for you :)

Peace
i understand, muchos gracias :)
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
01-30-2007, 09:48 PM
^^de nada...:D
Reply

Muslim Woman
01-31-2007, 01:17 AM


Salaam/peace;


Originally Posted by Jayda
hola Muslim Woman,

gracias, this is very interesting... but if i may ask a question what was Adam forgiven for? i thought muslims believe he was a prophet and prophets were sinless...

Dios te bendiga

there is a difference between sin & mistake. Prophet Adam (p) '' forgot '' the command of God & he made a mistake . Later , as sis Tayyaba said , he asked for forgiveness & God accepted his true repentance.


We believe , Prophets (pbut ) did not commit any major sins like adultery & some other allegations OT make against the Prophets (p). But , sometimes they made mistakes & when they realised , they asked for forgiveness like Moses (p) accidently killed a man , Jonah (p) did not wait for God's command & took a major decision by his own etc.

If u want to know more about mistakes ( not sins ) , then i have to browse :okay:
Reply

Jayda
01-31-2007, 01:28 AM
hola Muslim Woman,

i do not mean to overburden you but could you tell us more about sins and mistakes? murder is against one of the ten commandments (which Moses brought) and against the noahide laws... i do not know how he could have forgotten such a thing...

and is murder not considered a major sin like adultery which you gave as an example? is it possible to accidentally commit adultery...

i am confused by this, what makes a sin a sin and a mistake a mistake in islam?

Dios te bendiga
Reply

Muslim Woman
01-31-2007, 01:36 AM
Originally Posted by Jayda
i think maybe some of the problem is that not all missionaries are Catholic... .....................




Salaam/peace;

I don’t know if all were Catholics ; normally news come as Christian missionaries did this & that.

Well , I never re-checked the stories ; but next time if I hear anything , then will try to collect more info & Insha Allah will let u know :okay:



About the chocolate story , well it was not a magic. Teachers just bought sweets , put those in bag or pockets . When Muslim kids prayed to Allah , they did not take it out. When they prayed to Jesus (p) , they kept those in front of them & then told them to open eyes to find sweets.


Do all Churches believe that newborn babies who die will go to heaven ? I read in a story that a woman stopped going to church when a church member or someone related to church told her baby will go to hell....she was very hurt.

Reply

Jayda
01-31-2007, 01:49 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

Salaam/peace;

I don’t know if all were Catholics ; normally news come as Christian missionaries did this & that.

Well , I never re-checked the stories ; but next time if I hear anything , then will try to collect more info & Insha Allah will let u know :okay:
muchos gracias! hopefully if this sort of thing happens again i have given you enough information that you could go to a bishop or the missionary board themself and be able to site which things they are breaking in ad gentes... this is an abomination... breaking doctrine to teach heresy, this is horrible...



Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
About the chocolate story , well it was not a magic. Teachers just bought sweets , put those in bag or pockets . When Muslim kids prayed to Allah , they did not take it out. When they prayed to Jesus (p) , they kept those in front of them & then told them to open eyes to find sweets.
si... this is considered feigning "magic" according to Catholic doctrine... they are trying to "awe" the children with tricks claiming to have magic powers (even if they say it is given by God). they are telling the children to have faith in an act of God which is truly an act of man. this is blasphemous.

reducing prayer to a pretend activity and not teaching the true purpose of prayer. this is shameful and sinful... i hope someday these people come back to the true path... i just wish i knew where these kinds of activities were occuring, i know who to report this kind of thing to...


Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Do all Churches believe that newborn babies who die will go to heaven ? I read in a story that a woman stopped going to church when a church member or someone related to church told her baby will go to hell....she was very hurt.
all Catholic Churches believe in the doctrine i quoted before, that they are entrusted into the mercy of God and we do not believe he would create babies to condemn them to hell with no choice. God is most merciful.

all Catholics must believe this... if they say otherwise they are speaking heresy... it would be like a muslim disagreeing with mohammed or saying something in the quran is wrong... this is what it means to disobey the Holy Church, we must obey.

according to Catechism 892 and Catholic Doctrine we must adhere to religious assent... assent to everything the Church teaches officially... if a catholic woman said such a horrible thing as above she is speaking heresy and commiting sin...

i do not know about protestants... they do not follow the Holy Catholic Church, i do not understand them

Dios te bendiga

oh!! I am having my babies baptize next sunday :) i am so happy, we were able to have a baptism in veracruz in my family's town there it is so beautiful, and our good friend the cardinal will perform it for us my whole family will be there and i have asked my BEST friend in the entire world to be my babies god parents, she is very pious and will be so important in our girls lives :) this is the best day! i am looking forward to it so much!

itis so funny because we are talking about this just now :)
Reply

Muslim Woman
01-31-2007, 01:52 AM
Originally Posted by Jayda
hola Muslim Woman,

i do not mean to overburden you but could you tell us more about sins and mistakes? murder is against one of the ten commandments (which Moses brought) and against the noahide laws... i do not know how he could have forgotten such a thing...

and is murder not considered a major sin like adultery which you gave as an example? is it possible to accidentally commit adultery...

i am confused by this, what makes a sin a sin and a mistake a mistake in islam?

Dios te bendiga



Salaam/peace;


It’s a pleasure to answer but I m just afraid that sometimes short answers specially written in a hurry may confuse anybody.

Moses (p) did not want to kill anybody ;
he saw 2 men were quarriling or fighting . One was from his tribe . So ,he wanted to help him & hit the other man ( no intention to kill him ....just to make his fellow man a winner :D ) . Accidently , that man died...........as Moses (p) repented & asked for forgiveness , God forgave him.


is it possible to accidentally commit adultery...
-----i don't think so . Quran orders us to avoid those acts which can lead to adultery ; such as free mixing .

Hijab does not mean only to put a scarf on head ..........there is more to do to avoid the devil's temptation like Men must lower his gaze ( Quran , chapter 24 , sura light ).


when u forgot about something & do it without any intention to disobey God , it's not a sin. When u do something intentionally that is prohibited , then it's a sin.

Bible tells us that David (p) intentionally committed adultery with a married woman , killed her husband etc , etc ......these we can not accept as adultery , intentionally killing an innocent person are major sins.


U r most welcome ask more :happy:
Reply

Jayda
01-31-2007, 02:00 AM
muchos gracias Muslim Woman!

this explains what i wanted to know very well, now that you told me the circumstances of Moses in this story i now understand what you mean by mistake, this is very interesting

Dios te bendiga
Reply

Muslim Woman
02-01-2007, 01:58 AM
Salaam/peace;


Originally Posted by Jayda
..... i just wish i knew where these kinds of activities were occuring, i know who to report this kind of thing to...
---Bangladesh ; source : a news daily.

that young man who was told that no Christian will be punished was from Dhaka, Bangladesh....it's long ago......I met him in the year .......1994 or 95 or 96 ??? yak.





oh!! I am having my babies baptize next sunday :)


--Best wishes for ur little angels . can u describe the whole process when u have time ?

........... be my babies god parents, she is very pious and will be so important in our girls lives :)
--what is a god parent ? what's his/her role ?
Reply

Muslim Woman
02-01-2007, 09:30 AM
Originally Posted by rav
What does that have to do with anything? That is a recollection of what occured. A proof the Tanakh is uncorrupted! ...


Salaam/peace;



Nehemiah Chapter 9

rav: What does that have to do with anything? That is a recollection of what occurred . A proof the Tanakh is uncorrupted!

--- Tanakh described how Jews sinned in the past including slaying Prophets of the God Almighty & u think “ A proof the Tanakh is uncorrupted! ” ;

but when holy Quran described what Jews did in the past , ur arrogant remark is “ Sounds like Muhammad was in a rage of jealousy of the Jews when writing those verses. ” Why ?




rav: The Jews who "corrupted" as you so naivly say, would have erased that part wouldn't they have?

----may be , some Jews thought they can use it as a certificate that God always forgave their sins & will do in future , too.

They wanted to show people , hey look , does not matter how serious crime u/ we do , we will be forgiven.


May be , they used verses to fulfill their interest in the earth.

It seems to me that few or many Jews take it as for granted that God will always forgive their sins even if they don’t repent sincerely .
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-01-2007, 07:39 PM
I was not aware that there are so many Rabbis, Priests, and Imams on this board, but from the multiplicity of responses it appears that nearly everyone on this board seems to fit one of those categories.




Originally Posted by kkawohl1@cox.ne
Question: Many Christians claim to be born-again and thereby claim to have priority to heaven...why?...isn't this promoting prejudice?

Man is flesh with a spirit. Man can not claim to be “born again” because man is not spirit. God is spirit. Man’s spirit always has flaws attached to it so in order to “enter into the kingdom of God” it is cleansed by God; THE SPIRIT IS BORN AGAIN in order to be a part of a perfect unity. Upon the bonding with the spirit host, the spirit continues eternally. Those born-again spirits are the souls of ALL, ALL, All who have lived righteously, not just the Christians or the ones who "claim" to be born again. Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit.' "Having said this, He breathed His last. This is when the spirit of Jesus was "BORN AGAIN" and united with God.

Kurt

Kurt, since you quoted me, I'm guessing that you would like for me to respond. I think others have probably done so admirably in my absence. But thank you for asking the question and allowing me a chance to address it as well as I think that this is an area of confusion for many who might have been raised outside of the certain segment within Christianity which uses this sort of language.

First, I ask everyone to realize that language is always connected to culture. This is true not only between different languages, but even when people share a common language, if they have different cultures they may misunderstand what is meant by even a simple phrase. The term "born again" is one of those culturally laden phrases.

Second, one has to accept at face value what is recorded in the Bible if one is going to discuss the way that Christians use the term today. I know that there are many on this board who do not accept the authority of the Bible, and that is fine, I am not here to try to argue that point. But if one wants to understand those who do use this term, one must walk in their shoes, and that means (at least for the purpose of trying to understand how they use this term) that one must accept the authority of the Bible.

The term, "born again", is taken from a passage of scripture, John 3:3, in which Jesus declares: "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." I see from your post that you are familiar with the passage. However, I also see from your inference to Jesus' spirit being born again that your understanding of it is very different from that of the vast majority of Christians. Rather than debate the differences with you -- I don't see much point in saying "I'm right and you're wrong."; we could go round in claims and counter-claims ad nauseum -- in some things we may have similar understandings and in others none, so allow me to attempt to articulate the Christian understanding of the passage and subsequently the phrase.

Let me be clear, I am not looking for agreement, just a honest hearing from those who are truly seeking to understand where others are coming from.

The predominant Christian understanding of being "born again" is in the context of this discussion that Jesus is having with Nicodemus. In response to a question from Nicodemus about the source of Jesus' authority, Jesus turns the conversation on its ear and starts talking about entrance into the kingdom of God. Now this is sometimes thought of as merely a refernce to heaven by many today, but of course Jesus was referring to that and much more. For Jesus the kingdom of God was the totality of one's being belonging to God. Anyone for whom that would be a true statement would of course find themselves residing with God in heaven at the end of their earthly life, and this is the slant most Christians take on it today.

How does one become a part of this kingdom of God? Jesus says that it requires a new birth. That Nicodemus thinks Jesus is referring to physical birth can be seen from his question, "How can this be?" But Jesus is referring to a spiritual birth: ""I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." Today some Christians think that water in Jesus' answer refers to baptism, others think it refers to the amneutic fluids of birth, but all agree that the "new birth" refers to a spiritual rebirth.

Now the concept of rebirth implies that there was a previous birth. Certainly we are all born physically. In contrast with other religions, Christians understand that simply being a good person is not enough to guarantee entry to heaven. We think there needs to be a new birth, that our spirits need something from outside us that is not already present within us to connect us with God. Even adhering to all the teachings of the prophets, even the keeping of 600+ points of the Torah would not be sufficient unless the Spirit of God is in us also. That is not something we can accomplish on our own, anymore than we can accomplish our physical birth on our own. It is something that God conceives and nurtures in us, but we cannot control it. As Jesus said, "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.", so it is with how the Spirit of God moves in human lives. God determines it. The best we can do is be receptive and being willing to submit to it. If we do not harden our hearts and turn to our own worthiness, but we rely on God's worthiness and his grace, then God can and will work with and within us to shape our lives in accordance with his will.

I don't know, kkawohl1, if you view what I have stated about the connection the Spirit of God to be in harmony with what you spoke of your understanding of being "born again" in your post or not. I see some similar words, but I really think we have two different concepts in mind. Christians understand that one remains a unique individual, not simply bonded to a "spirit host" as you worded it. We, our very unique selves, continue for eternity with God in his presence, but not absorbed into him.

As to the issue of priority....we don't really understand this new birth as giving us a priority - i.e we don't come first before others. We understand it as granting entry which is not possible outside of the new birth. Yet, this passage does not anyplace say that God cannot grant that same new birth to others who are not Christians. As to the issue of prejuidice....Yes, we are prejuidiced to the extent that we don't generally think of non-Christians being born again. But, based on the text alone, and leaving my personal prejuidices aside, I would not exclude the possibility of anyone being saved, for the wind (and hence God's Spirit) can blow wherever God wills for it to blow and all who then are born again through the intervention of God coming into their lives would likewise be born again as well.
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-01-2007, 08:42 PM
I know that some prefer to have one post to answer all questions. I, however, find that some of the questions are so different as to be addressing completely different themes. Thus, though it means posting two times consecutively, it seems this is to be preferred in order to provide better clarity and focus in my answers and to make it easier for people who might be looking for my response to their posts. If this is against LI policy, I hope I can be forgiven.


Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
what's the main difference between Catholics , Protestants & other groups ?

I read somewhere that majority Christians are Catholics but non-Catholics are sending them to hell. Even ordinary Christians hear this from their Churches .................... how come ????

Priests can not marry but Pastors can , why ? Who decided all these ?

I heard the scandal about Catholic Churches ..... I have not heard anything much about other Churches...... do u think , as Catholics missionaries can not get married , that could be the reason behind those immoral
acts ?

Gay Bishops are allowed in all Churches ? Gay marriage, Gay parade .....what's the stand of ur Church about these issues ?

Sorry , i asked many questions. Take ur time :smile:
Speaking as a Protestant, and not a Catholic -- Jayda has given you a very good response from the Catholic perspective I believe on page 2 of this thread -- I think the biggest difference between protestants and Catholics is in our recognition of authority.

The protestant Reformation began as a protest by some Roman Catholic priests to what was seen as the Pope overreaching his authority in the life of the Roman Catholic Christians. Now such a terse description hardly does justice to the issues that dominated the discussions in the western church in the 1500s, and if this was a Christian forum, I would suggest starting a new thread to discuss it in depth. But suffice it to say that there was internal conflict regarding authority and the boundaries of that authority on the one hand, and insubordination and respect for authority on the other. No doubt both parties were in the right on some issues and in the wrong on others. But neither was willing to give an inch and a split occurred within the church that still exists till this day. In truth, both groups have softened their stance on positions adopted 500 year ago, but enough time has passed that there is no going back. So, today you have the Roman Catholic Church representing the largest single block within Christendom. As Jayda explained there are other groups beside Protestant and Catholic; I think her description is sufficient unless you have more particular questions about them.

Protestants are groups that split off from Roman Catholics within western Christendom. There are many protestant groups, because once the splitting process began each group would have their own complaint regarding Roman Catholicism and thus seperate themselves off. Each thought that the Roman Catholic Church had gotten away from what it was supposed to be, the way God had intended, and each group thought that they were going back to the way it was supposed to be. That's why it was called the Reformation, they were all trying to reform the Roman Catholic Church. But in the end all they really did was to make themselves separated from it. And sometimes those groups that split-off from the Roman Catholic Church couldn't agree among themselves and they would split again later.This is not the prettiest part of Church history, but it is true, so I will not try to pretend it is something it is not.

Now, regarding non-Catholics sending Catholics to hell.... Well, such people are few and far between. But every group has those within it who think that they are the only ones who are right and everyone else is wrong. That is what this is all about. And for reasons that I don't think are worth talking about, some of these people tend to be particularly against Catholics. In both my personal and my profession opinion as a United Methodist (a protestant church) pastor, I think such people are misguided.

As to who can marry and who cannot, and who decides..... Such questions go back to the question of authority. Most protestant churches recognize the Bible and the guidance of the Holy Spirit in interpreting the Bible as the primary sources of authority. In my denomination we recognize the Bible as the primary authority, and then we also recognize the place of tradition, experience, and reason to help us arrive at decisions under the guidance of God's Spirit. We see that there is a reference in scripture to Peter having a wife -- "When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever." (Matthew 8:14) -- and we know that for many years of even Roman Catholic Church history that priests were married, plus even today there are some exceptions where a Catholic priest can be married, so give all of this Protestant churches see no order against marraige. Thus we leave it to each individual to determine what God's will is in that individual's life as to whether God wills for the person to be married or single. But within the Roman Catholic Church, there is another authority that must be respected, and that is the Church herself. It is the Roman Catholic Church, not the Pope, who has said that its clergy should not marry.

Really it is the same within protestantism. By that, I mean that the authority rests in the church and the respect its members have for the church to make decisions. In my denomination we have said that practicing homosexuals should not be admitted to the role of pastor of a church, nor can a pastor conduct a marriage ceremony for a gay couple. Now there are some people who are homosexuals that would like to be pastors in our churches, but our church has made a decision on it. That decision continues to be discussed and debated, but for the present at least, that is the decision of the church, and those who respect the church's authority to make a decision keep it. And I suppose that those who do not respect the church's authority on this matter, go and find some other church or break the rule and then if later found out face church discipline.

Now someone who was from a different protestant denomination may or may not agree with the decision of my church, but it really doesn't matter to them one way or another. What matters to them is the decision of the authority they submit to. We would all like to say that we submit to God's authority. But reality is that we also depend on others to help us interpret and articulate what it is that God is saying. Thus they become authorities for us --just like you, Muslim Woman, have referenced interpreters of Islam for us in others of these threads, because you respect their authority. In recognizing some to be in positions of official authority over us, we then say that others, perhaps equally desiring to follow Christ, are not in the same position of authority over us. We do not say they are less Christian in any way, but they have less authority in terms of providing governance to our life. In my opinion, this is the primary difference between the Roman Catholic Church and protestant churches today -- who we look to for authority in terms of governing the church.
Reply

Muslim Woman
02-02-2007, 12:10 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I was not aware that there are so many Rabbis, Priests, and Imams on this board, but from the multiplicity of responses it appears that nearly everyone on this board seems to fit one of those categories........


salaam/peace;


hehe :giggling:

i was thinking about this & as mod did not object , i came to this conclusion that may be we ordinary people are '' qualified '' :p under others option :hiding:
Reply

Muslim Woman
02-02-2007, 12:28 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
.....


salaam/peace;

thanks for reply. Insha Allah , i will read it again when i go off-line.

what do u think of Gay Bishops? To my knowledge , there is a harsh punishment( i forgot now .....may be stoning?? ) prescribed in Bible for homo people.

So , how come , gays are not punished but honoured by some Churches ? I found it Very confusing.
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-02-2007, 12:49 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
So , how come , gays are not punished but honoured by some Churches ? I found it Very confusing.
I don't desire to punish anyone; I try to leave judgments for God. But I too find the "honoring" that appears to happen in some churches confusing. Sorry, I can't really answer any better than I already have.
Reply

Muslim Woman
02-02-2007, 01:09 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I don't desire to punish anyone; I try to leave judgments for God. But I too find the "honoring" that appears to happen in some churches confusing. Sorry, I can't really answer any better than I already have.
salaam/peace;

Is it up to individuals to think/decide who should be punished or not ? When ur holy books prescribes specific punishments for specific sins , then are Christians allowed to take decision like that " leave judgments for God ?



If Bible is from God , then God already gave His decisions to punish the sinners if they don't repent....is not it ?



what about punishing a serial killer or child rapist ? How many family members of the victims ( murdered persons/raped victims ) will leave the matter for the last day only ? Normally , they go to police to punish the culprits .

So, why , when it's come to the matters like gay people , adultery , many Christians hesitate to punish the sinners ?

Hope , i m not offending u . I want to know , besides homosexaulity & adultery , which more sins are allowed to do in this world without any punishment ?
Reply

IzakHalevas
02-02-2007, 01:40 AM
If Bible is from God , then God already gave His decisions to punish the sinners if they don't repent....is not it ?
Can you give us an example?
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-02-2007, 03:10 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
salaam/peace;

Is it up to individuals to think/decide who should be punished or not ? When ur holy books prescribes specific punishments for specific sins , then are Christians allowed to take decision like that " leave judgments for God ?



If Bible is from God , then God already gave His decisions to punish the sinners if they don't repent....is not it ?



what about punishing a serial killer or child rapist ? How many family members of the victims ( murdered persons/raped victims ) will leave the matter for the last day only ? Normally , they go to police to punish the culprits .

So, why , when it's come to the matters like gay people , adultery , many Christians hesitate to punish the sinners ?

Hope , i m not offending u . I want to know , besides homosexaulity & adultery , which more sins are allowed to do in this world without any punishment ?

You're not offending me at all. I think your questions are an honest, sincere effort to understand something that is outside of your own experience. But I think I am having some trouble understanding what you are driving at.

What do you mean by "punish"?

Christians don't understand that we have any legal power over people to punish anyone: not a homosexual, not a thief, not a rapist, not a murder, not an adulterer, not a blasphemer, not any sinner. The civil government might exercise power in regard to some of these things, and Christians are suppose to submit to governmental authorities (and also try to influence the government to make righteous decisions) but we are not invested with that type of authority ourselves. Christians can only discipline within the context of the church.

Different churches have exercised this church discipline in different ways. Sometimes a member of a church is kicked out of the church. Sometimes they remain within the church and are shunned, or lose the right to hold a certain office, or are simply admonished and then upon repentence are restored to fellowship.

Not presently, but in the past (like the 1600s), in some communities that were seen as entirely Christian communities, they would mix the authority of the civil and church governement and impose other punishments like confinement in the stocks, whipping, and even execution as they sought to impose church doctrine on all the inhabitants of a community, but that practice is no longer understood to be in harmony with scripture to judge non-Christians by Christian standards.
Reply

Muhammad
02-02-2007, 09:24 PM
Greetings and :sl: ,

I feel that this thread has gone beyond its original purpose and that questions about Christianity can be asked in the thread that is dedicated to that purpose.

:threadclo
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