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New_Muslim
01-23-2007, 06:46 AM
Please feel free to refute any of the points I will make in this thread. God can not be completely disproven, though prehaps to a reasonable point. Allow me to play devil's advocate.

1. If god is all-powerful and can do anything, can he build a boulder he can't lift or a universe can't control? Either way there is something he is unable to do and thus not all-powerful.

2. If everything needs a creator, than who created the creator? If you say no one because everything must have a start(and god is at the start), than logically no one had to create the universe, because it was the start of everything. Nothing before it, including a God.

3. Moses is an important prophet in Islam and is discussed in both the Qur'an and the Bible. New edvince suggests he did not exist, and thus was not a prophet. Making both the Bible and the Qur'an null and void.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/features...,1475491.story

4. what was god doing before he created the universe?

5.In a vacuum, particles(matter) do appear from nothing and thus would not require a creator. Also at the start of the universe, laws of this universe such as nothing be appear from nothing don't apply. So it is entirely possible that matter formed before it was able to be created or destroyed.

6. Homosexuality is not a choice yet Islam calls for people to be put to death for it. why would Allah say people should die for something they can not choose?
http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html

7. evolution has been proven and the human is an evolved species of animal known as homo sapien, a primate. A cousin to homo erectus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_man

To sum up; The universe was formed when particles appeared outside of the laws of this universe some 13.4 billion years ago. This led to the big bang, starting the formation of what we know today as the earth and the sun. through billion of years, earth's environment became suitable for life. Life began to form through organic interactions.That life evolved and the earth changed until we arrive at modern day where the homo sapien is the dominate animal as the dinosaurs were years ago.
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akulion
01-23-2007, 06:56 AM
here are a few answers...

There is a very popular question which many athiests believe to be the 'benchmark' for disproving that God is All-Powerful.

Based on the limited understanding of human beings, these questions are being asked as a showoff of 'intellect'. However in this article we will adress the questions and give their answers.

The question has popped up in various forms in different places, some of them are listed below:

------------------------------------------------

- Can God create a rock bigger than himself?

- Can God create a God more power than himself?

------------------------------------------------

At first the above questions may boggle the mind of the reader - in some cases people may even think these questions are impossible to answer. But infact they are not.

To answer, we first must take into account WHO is being asked, or rather WHICH RELIGION is being addresses (since each religion has its definition of God and his powers)

I would like to present the Muslim prespective on this.

Let us begin by understanding a few basic concepts regarding Allah in Islam.

------------------------------------------------

1. Allah has no beginning and has no end. [Surah Al Ikhlas - Al Quran]
Allah has no size, no shape, no form, no beginning, no end. Thus Allah is infinite.

So how can something be bigger than infinity?

Infinity = Infinity+1 = Infinity x 1000

The above statement is mathematically correct since, when taking infinity into account there is no limit.

Therefore,
Question: Can Allah create a Rock bigger than himself?
Answer: The question cannot apply to a being which has no size, no limit, no end or no beginning, since there is nothing bigger than infinity or smaller than it.

Conclusion: The question is logically flawed since it assumes that God has a size to begin with.

-----------------------------------------

2. Allah is 'One':[Surah Ikhlas - Al Quran]
This means that there is nothing except Allah, all that exists, simply exists because Allah created it.

Question: Can Allah create a God more power than himself?
Answer: The question cannot apply to Allah since he is the creator and so whatever Allah may create will always be inferior to Allah since Allah is the CREATOR and the other being is the CREATED.

Conclusion: The question is logically flawed, since it seeks to compare 2 being which cannot be compared. One will always be superior to the other in the aspect of Creator vs. Created.

-------------------------------------------------------

Insha'allah hopefully that will help people answer such questions in the future which are 'seemingly very difficult' but are actually logically flawed.

Bro Aku
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akulion
01-23-2007, 06:59 AM
Some other points to refute the concept 'where did Allah come from?'

Where did anything come from?
The universe?
The gases which created the universe?

Where did they come from?

So the answer is from the scientists that 'it always existed'

Well thats the answer for them too... Allah has ne beginning and no end.
Everything is from Allah.

So really its a circular argument which is just ridiclous.
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akulion
01-23-2007, 07:08 AM
4. what was god doing before he created the universe?
In al quran Allah swt states:
I do as I will and there is none to question me for I am god.

Simple as that really

----------------
3. Moses is an important prophet in Islam and is discussed in both the Qur'an and the Bible. New edvince suggests he did not exist, and thus was not a prophet. Making both the Bible and the Qur'an null and void.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/features...,1475491.story
Link dosent work so dunno what that was about

--------------------
5.In a vacuum, particles(matter) do appear from nothing and thus would not require a creator. Also at the start of the universe, laws of this universe such as nothing be appear from nothing don't apply. So it is entirely possible that matter formed before it was able to be created or destroyed.
And which genious decided that the theory which is widely accepted "matter or energy can neither be created nor be destroyed' with this simple statement? some sources please..cos if trees started appearing out of no where i need to go see a shrink

--------------
6. Homosexuality is not a choice yet Islam calls for people to be put to death for it. why would Allah say people should die for something they can not choose?
http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html
the theory of homosexual 'gene' was disproved in 1994 and so no one is 'born gay'

The "genetic and unchangeable" theory has been actively promoted by gay activists and the popular media. Is homosexuality really an inborn and normal variant of human nature?

No. There is no evidence that shows that homosexuality is simply "genetic." And none of the research claims there is. Only the press and certain researchers do, when speaking in sound bites to the public.

Source: http://www.narth.com/docs/istheregene.html

7. evolution has been proven and the human is an evolved species of animal known as homo sapien, a primate. A cousin to homo erectus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_man
evolution is not FACT it is a theory
scientists draw links between 2 types of skeletons
but even darwin himself could not explain why birds have intricate paterns on their feathers. So really it reamins a theory - one of the major ones of course...but all the same a theory and not fact
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lolwatever
01-23-2007, 07:15 AM
Originally Posted by New_Muslim
Please feel free to refute any of the points I will make in this thread. God can not be completely disproven, though prehaps to a reasonable point. Allow me to play devil's advocate.

1. If god is all-powerful and can do anything, can he build a boulder he can't lift or a universe can't control? Either way there is something he is unable to do and thus not all-powerful.
Salams bro :)

It's easy to answer these questiosn if we take a careful look at the question.

All powerful = "able to exert a lot of influence and control over people and events" and "with unbeatable sterngth" (Microsoft Dictionary)

Knowing that, to say that an all powerful being can be beaten or out-done is a contradictory statement. So the question itself is invalid.

2. If everything needs a creator, than who created the creator? If you say no one because everything must have a start(and god is at the start), than logically no one had to create the universe, because it was the start of everything. Nothing before it, including a God.
I gave a detailed answer here, similar thing to the above:

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post618098

3. Moses is an important prophet in Islam and is discussed in both the Qur'an and the Bible. New edvince suggests he did not exist, and thus was not a prophet. Making both the Bible and the Qur'an null and void.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/features...,1475491.story
Can you give us the link? Also i think the fact that different books which emerged in different areas spoke about him and gave deatiled narrations of his life is an indication enough of his existance.

On what ground is this evidence based on:?

4. what was god doing before he created the universe?
All we are told is that "god was there". The question seems to imply that god is time dependent (i.e. he exists within some time domain)... which is wrong since Allah, by definition is spacetime independent. (he is the creator of time)

5.In a vacuum, particles(matter) do appear from nothing and thus would not require a creator. Also at the start of the universe, laws of this universe such as nothing be appear from nothing don't apply. So it is entirely possible that matter formed before it was able to be created or destroyed.
:lol: who said that, that's sooo highly misleading!! They're talking about virtual particles in aquantum vaccuum... here's how it works:

The particles don't come out of nothing, lkiterally nothing, we call them 'virtual particles. The energy stored in vaccuum alterantes almost instantanously that get converted into temporary particles that return back to the vaccuum.

I think he's talking about the quantum vaccuum, i strongly encourage you to read about it... they dont come out of nothing, its just energy spontaneoulsy getting converted to 'temporary' particles that vanish back into vaccuum.

Hence that argument falls apart.

lol i loveeee it when they use quantum theory to try prove things like this... i actually laugh with excitement.. they sooo twist it like no tomorrow lol.

as for prior to universe, there was no space/time..so they cant use the quantum vaccuum thing, read up towards the end of this i'll explain.

6. Homosexuality is not a choice yet Islam calls for people to be put to death for it. why would Allah say people should die for something they can not choose?
http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html
Even in the case that one is tempted (which i believe is not the natural inclination), it's no different to illegal heterosexual behaviour. It is considered illegal behaviour which is punished just like zina after marriage.

It's the only way to prevent unnatural behaviour from society, i'm sure there exists alot of papers that probably explaint aht it is a choice and not as 'natural' as some people would like to think it is.

7. evolution has been proven and the human is an evolved species of animal known as homo sapien, a primate. A cousin to homo erectus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_man

serious? where's the proof? Why do they still call it the 'theory of evolution'?

Islam is neutral to the theory with regards to creation in general, it doesn't affirm or negate it. But we knwo from the quran that the creation of man is a miracle which was done over a period fo 40 years i think (on a heavenly time-scale).


To sum up; The universe was formed when particles appeared outside of the laws of this universe some 13.4 billion years ago. This led to the big bang, starting the formation of what we know today as the earth and the sun. through billion of years, earth's environment became suitable for life. Life began to form through organic interactions.That life evolved and the earth changed until we arrive at modern day where the homo sapien is the dominate animal as the dinosaurs were years ago.
as i said, there's no proof for theory of evolution. i still have yet to see any of that.

as for the firstpart, that actually acts as evdience for existance of Allah, the fact that the universe was the result of the instanton (a 'particle' that came out of nothing (i.e. there was no spacetime ), without any physical prior event), is perfect indication of a creator, since Allah is spacetime independent and is by definition the creator.

also, the creation of the universe was an unpredictable event (as well as an unphysically caused one), and that also befits Allah's description, since he creates at free will and out of nothing :)

Check this for more info to backup my claim abotu it being without any physical priori http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/gr/public/qg_qc.html


tc all the best :)
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aamirsaab
01-23-2007, 11:10 AM
:sl:
Originally Posted by New_Muslim
Please feel free to refute any of the points I will make in this thread. God can not be completely disproven, though prehaps to a reasonable point. Allow me to play devil's advocate.
I'll have a go.

1. If god is all-powerful and can do anything, can he build a boulder he can't lift or a universe can't control? Either way there is something he is unable to do and thus not all-powerful.
That question assumes God has similar abilities as man, which is really very far from the truth.

2. If everything needs a creator, than who created the creator? If you say no one because everything must have a start(and god is at the start), than logically no one had to create the universe, because it was the start of everything. Nothing before it, including a God.
Again, this assumes that God has abilities of mankind. What some people fail to realise is that when we say God's creation we are defining creation on an entirely different level to when we would say "mankind created such and such".

3. Moses is an important prophet in Islam and is discussed in both the Qur'an and the Bible. New edvince suggests he did not exist, and thus was not a prophet. Making both the Bible and the Qur'an null and void.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/features...,1475491.story
I do not have sufficient knowledge to provide an answer.

4. what was god doing before he created the universe?
I'll ask Him when I see Him.

5.In a vacuum, particles(matter) do appear from nothing and thus would not require a creator. Also at the start of the universe, laws of this universe such as nothing be appear from nothing don't apply. So it is entirely possible that matter formed before it was able to be created or destroyed.
Again, the definition of creation is different when we apply it to God.

6. Homosexuality is not a choice yet Islam calls for people to be put to death for it. why would Allah say people should die for something they can not choose?
http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html
Who says it is a choice? Some can be decieved into it, some may do it out of peer pressure. There is a variety of different reasons for Homosexuality. Islam's stance on it is that the action is wrong.

7. evolution has been proven and the human is an evolved species of animal known as homo sapien, a primate. A cousin to homo erectus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_man
lol wikipedia. The thing with evolution is that it relies heavily on several things; chance/probability and survival are just two of them. I have myself read up on some evolutionary theories, intriguing yes. To me though, it's too much of a leap to believe in since there are evo-theorists who themselves are unsure as to whether or not mankind can evolve further.

To sum up; The universe was formed when particles appeared outside of the laws of this universe some 13.4 billion years ago.
What was the cause of these particles?

This led to the big bang, starting the formation of what we know today as the earth and the sun. through billion of years, earth's environment became suitable for life. Life began to form through organic interactions.That life evolved and the earth changed until we arrive at modern day where the homo sapien is the dominate animal as the dinosaurs were years ago.
The thing is, the big bang theory cannot be scientifically proven since it is a theory. I'm sure a counter argument will be along the lines of 'the same can be said for religion XYZ'. Indeed this is true (in some respect), in which case it all boils down to a matter of faith. It could be stated that, from an unbiased view point, evo theories are as credible as any religious creation theory.
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Umar001
01-23-2007, 01:52 PM
Originally Posted by New_Muslim

2. If everything needs a creator, than who created the creator? If you say no one because everything must have a start(and god is at the start), than logically no one had to create the universe, because it was the start of everything. Nothing before it, including a God.

Every created thing needs a creator, that was the first mistake.

Also the universe is not the start of everything, becuase if you agree that G-d was there before then he was before the start of the universe.


Originally Posted by New_Muslim
3. Moses is an important prophet in Islam and is discussed in both the Qur'an and the Bible. New edvince suggests he did not exist, and thus was not a prophet. Making both the Bible and the Qur'an null and void.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/features...,1475491.story

The link is not working, but I doubt it has any evidence that moses, peace be upon him, didnt exist. Maybe what you mean is that, it shows that according to the Biblical Timescale there are no historical records for Moses.

Well the Qu'ran is not restricted by that time scale.

And an arguement of silence is hardly proof.


Originally Posted by New_Muslim
4. what was god doing before he created the universe?
I do not know, I am sure you do understand the concept of humans not knowing anything except what God teaches, for example, a very lose one,

Lets say there was only ONE family, i.e. Mum Dad and kids. There are no other people or historical records from before the birth of the kids, now imagine, a younger child asks his older brother, 'before you were born what did Mum and Dad do?' The elder child will not know, unless the information is diclosed by the Parents to him.

Similarly, we only know of God what he reveals to us.


Originally Posted by New_Muslim
6. Homosexuality is not a choice yet Islam calls for people to be put to death for it. why would Allah say people should die for something they can not choose?
http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html
You've made a mistake, your claiming that Islam asks death if someone is homosexually orientated. Rather Islam asks for death of those who publically display homosexual acts.

Even your link says:


Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed.

Some people have other tendecies, some people are into 'wife swapping' others have other fetishes, and outside the sexual realm, there are many things that others want or desire, i.e. alcholics, crack heads, and so forth. We will not be punished because we had a bad thought about sleeping with another man, or something, we will be punished for what WE HAVE control over.


I've left the rest since they take more time.

Eesa
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IbnAbdulHakim
01-23-2007, 02:03 PM
Originally Posted by New_Muslim

1. If god is all-powerful and can do anything, can he build a boulder he can't lift or a universe can't control? Either way there is something he is unable to do and thus not all-powerful.
that would take away his godlike qualities and he would cease to be God. God does that which befits his majesty.


2. If everything needs a creator, than who created the creator? If you say no one because everything must have a start(and god is at the start), than logically no one had to create the universe, because it was the start of everything. Nothing before it, including a God.
Nothing was before God and nothing will come after God.

3. Moses is an important prophet in Islam and is discussed in both the Qur'an and the Bible. New edvince suggests he did not exist, and thus was not a prophet. Making both the Bible and the Qur'an null and void.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/features...,1475491.story
i refuse to answer until you provide a valid link :p


4. what was god doing before he created the universe?
we'll ask him when we get to heaven (inshaAllaah) :D

5.In a vacuum, particles(matter) do appear from nothing and thus would not require a creator. Also at the start of the universe, laws of this universe such as nothing be appear from nothing don't apply. So it is entirely possible that matter formed before it was able to be created or destroyed.
whats the proof that particles appear from nothing?

6. Homosexuality is not a choice yet Islam calls for people to be put to death for it. why would Allah say people should die for something they can not choose?
http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html
islam restrains all unlawful acts, people can say they desire adultery, doesnt make it allright.

7. evolution has been proven and the human is an evolved species of animal known as homo sapien, a primate. A cousin to homo erectus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_man
funny that they still call it a theory eh ;D
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Muhammad
01-23-2007, 02:25 PM
:sl:

Some of these have already been addressed on the forum:

1. If god is all-powerful and can do anything, can he build a boulder he can't lift or a universe can't control? Either way there is something he is unable to do and thus not all-powerful.
http://www.islamicboard.com/65497-post7.html

2. If everything needs a creator, than who created the creator? If you say no one because everything must have a start(and god is at the start), than logically no one had to create the universe, because it was the start of everything. Nothing before it, including a God.
God, by definition, cannot be created, or else He wouldn't be God, right? God doesn't need to come from anywhere.

4. what was god doing before he created the universe?
What does that have to do with anything?

6. Homosexuality is not a choice yet Islam calls for people to be put to death for it. why would Allah say people should die for something they can not choose?
Does Islam punish homosexual inclinations?
http://www.islamicboard.com/556617-post29.html

7. evolution has been proven and the human is an evolved species of animal known as homo sapien, a primate. A cousin to homo erectus.
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...rspective.html
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