South America: Toward an Alternative Future

[Skillganon]

South America: Toward an Alternative Future
Noam Chomsky

International Herald Tribune, January 5, 2007
Last month a coincidence of birth and death signaled a transition for South America and indeed for the world.
The former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet died even as leaders of South American nations concluded a two-day summit meeting in Cochabamba, Bolivia, hosted by President Evo Morales, at which the participants and the agenda represented the antithesis of Pinochet and his era.

In the Cochabamba Declaration, the presidents and envoys of 12 countries agreed to study the idea of forming a continent-wide community similar to the European Union.

The declaration marks another stage toward regional integration in South America, 500 years after the European conquests. The subcontinent, from Venezuela to Argentina, may yet present an example to the world on how to create an alternative future from a legacy of empire and terror.

The United States has long dominated the region by two major methods: violence and economic strangulation. Quite generally, international affairs have more than a slight resemblance to the Mafia. The Godfather does not take it lightly when he is crossed, even by a small storekeeper.

Previous attempts at independence have been crushed, partly because of a lack of regional cooperation. Without it, threats can be handled one by one. (Central America, unfortunately, has yet to shake the fear and destruction left over from decades of U.S.-backed terror, especially during the 1980s.)

To the United States, the real enemy has always been independent nationalism, particularly when it threatens to become a "contagious example," to borrow Henry Kissinger's characterization of democratic socialism in Chile.

On Sept. 11, 1973,

Pinochet's forces attacked the Chilean presidential palace. Salvador Allende, the democratically elected president, died in the palace, apparently by his own hand, because he was unwilling to surrender to the assault that demolished Latin America's oldest, most vibrant democracy and established a regime of torture and repression.

The official death toll for the coup is 3,200; the actual toll is commonly estimated at double that figure. An official inquiry 30 years after the coup found evidence of approximately 30,000 cases of torture during the Pinochet regime. Among the leaders at Cochabamba was the Chilean president, Michelle Bachelet. Like Allende, she is a socialist and a physician. She also is a former exile and political prisoner. Her father was a general who died in prison after being tortured.

At Cochabamba, Morales and President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela celebrated a new joint venture, a gas separation project in Bolivia. Such cooperation strengthens the region's role as a major player in global energy.

Venezuela is already the only Latin American member of OPEC, with by far the largest proven oil reserves outside the Middle East. Chávez envisions Petroamerica, an integrated energy system of the kind that China is trying to initiate in Asia.

The new Ecuadorian president, Rafael Correa, proposed a land-and-river trade link from the Brazilian Amazon rain forest to Ecuador's Pacific Coast — a South American equivalent of the Panama Canal.

Other promising developments include Telesur, a new pan-Latin American TV channel based in Venezuela and an effort to break the Western media monopoly.

The Brazilian president, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, called on fellow leaders to overcome historical differences and unite the continent, however difficult the task.

Integration is a prerequisite for genuine independence. The colonial history — Spain, Britain, other European powers, the United States — not only divided countries from one another but also left a sharp internal division within the countries, between a wealthy small elite and a mass of impoverished people.

The main economic controls in recent years have come from the International Monetary Fund, which is virtually a branch of the U.S. Treasury Department. But Argentina, Brazil and now Bolivia have moved to free themselves of IMF strictures.

Because of the new developments in South America, the United States has been forced to adjust policy. The governments that now have U.S. support — like Brazil under Lula — might well have been overthrown in the past, as was President João Goulart of Brazil in a U.S.-backed coup in 1964.

To maintain Washington's party line, though, it's necessary to finesse some of the facts. For example, when Lula was re- elected in October, one of his first acts was to fly to Caracas to support Chávez's electoral campaign. Also, Lula dedicated a Brazilian project in Venezuela, a bridge over the Orinoco River, and discussed other joint ventures.

The tempo is picking up. Also last month, Mercosur, the South American trading bloc, continued the dialogue on South American unity at its semiannual meeting in Brazil, where Lula inaugurated the Mercosur Parliament — another promising sign of deliverance from the demons of the past.

ref: http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20070105.htm

[Keltoi]

The question is whether South America will be willing to unite under a socialist banner. Perhaps, perhaps not. Depends, in a large part, on what happens in Venezuela. If the poor in that country continue to believe Chavez's policies are helping them, perhaps that will lead to more socialist governments elsewhere.

[Dawud_uk]

The question is whether South America will be willing to unite under a socialist banner. Perhaps, perhaps not. Depends, in a large part, on what happens in Venezuela. If the poor in that country continue to believe Chavez's policies are helping them, perhaps that will lead to more socialist governments elsewhere.

would be hard for them not to believe now they have access to decent healthcare and other services for the first time.

also, chavez although a socialist is also a committed christian i understand

Abu Abdullah

[Keltoi]

would be hard for them not to believe now they have access to decent healthcare and other services for the first time.

also, chavez although a socialist is also a committed christian i understand

Abu Abdullah

In the long term these policies will win Chavez support from the poor, who make up the majority of Venezuala. However, like other experiments in socialism in Latin America, that support will also be dependent on how many of the poor can get out of poverty in a socialist system.

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[Dawud_uk]

In the long term these policies will win Chavez support from the poor, who make up the majority of Venezuala. However, like other experiments in socialism in Latin America, that support will also be dependent on how many of the poor can get out of poverty in a socialist system.

i personally think such help programs, a hand up rather than a hand out as it were are closer to the christian and muslim traditions of charity than a pure welfare system and obviously much better than the supposed drip down effect of capitialism.

Abu Abdullah

[Skywalker]

South America should be a concentration point for a lot of da3wah IMO, because I think there's a good possibility of spreading Islam in a place where like that, where America doesn't have much influence.

Any idea whether there are actual Islamic campaigns in South America at this time?

[Keltoi]

South America should be a concentration point for a lot of da3wah IMO, because I think there's a good possibility of spreading Islam in a place where like that, where America doesn't have much influence.

Any idea whether there are actual Islamic campaigns in South America at this time?

The Catholic Church holds sway in South America, and has since 1500. The people down there are very devoted Catholics.

[Dawud_uk]

South America should be a concentration point for a lot of da3wah IMO, because I think there's a good possibility of spreading Islam in a place where like that, where America doesn't have much influence.

Any idea whether there are actual Islamic campaigns in South America at this time?

assalaamu alaykum,

the murabitun sufi movement has several compounds in south america, mexico and spain. they have some wacked out ideas on a few matters like music and seem a bit relaxed on issues like mixing but still they're trying where others havent even thought of making an effort yet.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

[Skywalker]

The Catholic Church holds sway in South America, and has since 1500. The people down there are very devoted Catholics.

The way I see it, if people can be steered towards Christianity, they could just as easily be steered towards Islam, if not easier since Islam has a lot less "strange ideas" than Christianity. I think having a mutual enemy, the government of America in this case, is a good starting point for creating ties with the people of South America. Someone should really use this opportunity.

assalaamu alaykum,

the murabitun sufi movement has several compounds in south america, mexico and spain. they have some wacked out ideas on a few matters like music and seem a bit relaxed on issues like mixing but still they're trying where others havent even thought of making an effort yet.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

Wa 3aleikum elsalaam brother. Yeah it's good that someone's doing something, but I think a lot more could and should be done over there.

[Keltoi]

The way I see it, if people can be steered towards Christianity, they could just as easily be steered towards Islam, if not easier since Islam has a lot less "strange ideas" than Christianity. I think having a mutual enemy, the government of America in this case, is a good starting point for creating ties with the people of South America. Someone should really use this opportunity.


Wa 3aleikum elsalaam brother. Yeah it's good that someone's doing something, but I think a lot more could and should be done over there.

Christianity doesn't have "weird ideas" to the people of South America. I'm sure a majority of them would find Islam to have "weird" ideas. As far as the "mutual enemy", I'm not sure what you are talking about. Most South American countries have good relations with the United States, not to mention that having problems with the United States in no way would make them doubt their religious faith.

[Woodrow]

I won't say much about what I know of South America. However, it is much more Westernized than North America (Canada, USA, Mexico) are in terms of what many people consider the faults of Western Civilization. Islam has been in South America for Hundreds of years as there were many Mid-eastern Immigrants, but it seems to be confined to the Mideastern districts of the large cities and reverts seem to be uncommon. Nearly all of the South American countries have been established longer than the USA or Canada and the people are very much like Europeans except for the Language.

Try a Google search of these cities. Caracas probably has the largest Muslim population in South America, I believe there is only one Masjid (Masjid Ibrahim) and it is a very old Masjid.



Caracas
Rio de Janiero
La Paz
Sao Paulo

Those cities pretty much typify what I have seen throughout South America

[Skywalker]

Christianity doesn't have "weird ideas" to the people of South America. I'm sure a majority of them would find Islam to have "weird" ideas.

Yes, Islam might seem strange to some, but it tends to attract people with its logic, which Christianity fails to do to some people. "Because that's what God wants" tends to be the answer to a lot of questions in Christianity, and a lot of people are surprised that Islam has actual practical answers to similar questions. I'm not saying that we don't have people that say the same thing when put on the spot, but the real knowledgable and thinking Muslims tend to have answers to almost all questions presented to them. That's one of the reasons people, especially Christians, are intrigued by Islam and like to study it further.

As far as the "mutual enemy", I'm not sure what you are talking about. Most South American countries have good relations with the United States

Well, the Venezuelans aren't very fond of America now are they? In fact, I don't think any of the SA countries on any especially good terms with America, but I could be wrong.

not to mention that having problems with the United States in no way would make them doubt their religious faith.

It's not about doubting religious faith, it's about opening friendly channels for communication. A common enemy usually lets people put aside their differences and start to work together. This gives a good chance for people to know more about Islam, which they probably have no idea about now. Not only that, but interaction with Muslims lets others see the true qualities of pious Muslims; politeness, honesty, trust, and that in itself is enough to encourage people to want to learn more about Islam without you even having to go to them. How do you think Islam spread in the far east?

But none of this can happen if there aren't any Muslims there and that all communication channels are closed.

[Woodrow]

Well, the Venezuelans aren't very fond of America now are they? In fact, I don't think any of the SA countries on any especially good terms with America, but I could be wrong.

#

Free Venezuelan oil finally reaching Alaska villages, 11,000 homes eligible Alaska villages are finally receiving a much-criticized donation of heating fuel from Venezuelan oil company Citgo. More than 11,000 homes in rural Alaska are eligible for 100 gallons each as part of Houston-based Citgo’s pledge to donate 1 million gallons of heating fuel to poor Americans. More tha....

Source: http://www.petroleumnews.com/cgi-bin...=76.211.186.37

Although CITGO is headquartered here in the USA it is the State owned Petroleum company of Venezuela.

[MTAFFI]

Yes, Islam might seem strange to some, but it tends to attract people with its logic, which Christianity fails to do to some people. "Because that's what God wants" tends to be the answer to a lot of questions in Christianity, and a lot of people are surprised that Islam has actual practical answers to similar questions. I'm not saying that we don't have people that say the same thing when put on the spot, but the real knowledgable and thinking Muslims tend to have answers to almost all questions presented to them. That's one of the reasons people, especially Christians, are intrigued by Islam and like to study it further.


Well, the Venezuelans aren't very fond of America now are they? In fact, I don't think any of the SA countries on any especially good terms with America, but I could be wrong.


It's not about doubting religious faith, it's about opening friendly channels for communication. A common enemy usually lets people put aside their differences and start to work together. This gives a good chance for people to know more about Islam, which they probably have no idea about now. Not only that, but interaction with Muslims lets others see the true qualities of pious Muslims; politeness, honesty, trust, and that in itself is enough to encourage people to want to learn more about Islam without you even having to go to them. How do you think Islam spread in the far east?

But none of this can happen if there aren't any Muslims there and that all communication channels are closed.

Islam is very strange to some people, more so than Christianity, you do realize that the majority of the world is Christian so it must not be that strange. Islam isnt really even a close second when you think of it in terms of how many people there are in the world (i think they are about 15% less than Christians)
Also to your point about a "common" enemy, are you saying that the US is an enemy to Muslims? If you are, perhaps we should start a poll to see if other share your view, and if they do perhaps America should start a true war against Islam if they are, in fact, our enemy. I would hope this isnt case

[Trumble]

The question is whether South America will be willing to unite under a socialist banner. Perhaps, perhaps not. Depends, in a large part, on what happens in Venezuela. If the poor in that country continue to believe Chavez's policies are helping them, perhaps that will lead to more socialist governments elsewhere.

Socialism is great. If it works. Unfortunately, in ninety years or so of trying to put it into practice nobody has yet succesfully demonstrated that it can.

As you say, if Chavez does succeed other countries may follow. I'm not holding my breath.

[Jayda]

The question is whether South America will be willing to unite under a socialist banner. Perhaps, perhaps not. Depends, in a large part, on what happens in Venezuela. If the poor in that country continue to believe Chavez's policies are helping them, perhaps that will lead to more socialist governments elsewhere.

hola Keltoi,

i think americans associate socialism with communism and attach the bad things that happened in some communist countries to socialism... also i think maybe many americans do not understand that laissez faires free market economics are cultural to the english speaking world especially britain and american... but it is culturally more natural to share resources in other parts of the world like south america and other places...

socialism is a very good thing fundamentally... and it is a more natural economic perspective for south americans than other western alternatives i think...

Dios te bendiga

[Jayda]

I won't say much about what I know of South America. However, it is much more Westernized than North America (Canada, USA, Mexico) are in terms of what many people consider the faults of Western Civilization. Islam has been in South America for Hundreds of years as there were many Mid-eastern Immigrants, but it seems to be confined to the Mideastern districts of the large cities and reverts seem to be uncommon. Nearly all of the South American countries have been established longer than the USA or Canada and the people are very much like Europeans except for the Language.

Try a Google search of these cities. Caracas probably has the largest Muslim population in South America, I believe there is only one Masjid (Masjid Ibrahim) and it is a very old Masjid.



Caracas
Rio de Janiero
La Paz
Sao Paulo

Those cities pretty much typify what I have seen throughout South America

hola Woodrow,

there is an islamic presence in south america... it is a very large place... but please do not misinterpret this... it is and will always be a minority... Roman Catholicism is our culture...

Dios te bendiga

[MTAFFI]

Socialism is great. If it works. Unfortunately, in ninety years or so of trying to put it into practice nobody has yet succesfully demonstrated that it can.

As you say, if Chavez does succeed other countries may follow. I'm not holding my breath.

personally I believe 100% in democracy, but everyone has their own choice

[Woodrow]

personally I believe 100% in democracy, but everyone has their own choice

Our American Democracy is much closer to socialism than Communism ever was and the UK Monarchy is even much closer. Our version of Democracy is basicaly limited socialism.

[Skywalker]

Islam is very strange to some people, more so than Christianity, you do realize that the majority of the world is Christian so it must not be that strange. Islam isnt really even a close second when you think of it in terms of how many people there are in the world (i think they are about 15% less than Christians)

I don't disagree, a lot of the Christians I spoke to that converted to Islam, including a couple of priests, mentioned that Islam made a lot more sense to them than Christianity. Anyways, I don't want this to go into a discussion about which religion is better or whatnot, but let's just say that there's a better possiblity of people converting to Islam if they actually know what Islam is and saw firsthand the kind of people pious Muslims are. The fact that there are very few of them in SA makes this rather difficult.

Also to your point about a "common" enemy, are you saying that the US is an enemy to Muslims? If you are, perhaps we should start a poll to see if other share your view, and if they do perhaps America should start a true war against Islam if they are, in fact, our enemy. I would hope this isnt case

I think I was rather specific when I mentioned what "the enemy" was, and no it was not the US itself, but its government. I think many people around the world are starting to realize that the US government's intentions aren't as pure as they might make them seem, otherwise they wouldn't have to lie to their own people in order to achieve political agendas. I have no problem with the people of the US, in fact some of my closest friends are Americans, but it's the ideaologies and policies of the government that I don't approve of, and neither do a lot of people.

[Skywalker]

there is an islamic presence in south america... it is a very large place... but please do not misinterpret this... it is and will always be a minority... Roman Catholicism is our culture...

Hola Jayda :D
Can you tell me where this Islamic presence is concentrated the most?...or is it scattered all over?

Do you think that it's best that people in SA not know about Islam, or that they know about it and choose Christianity? I think the second option is better because it would make them stronger Christians while at the same time the Muslims would have done their duty and delivered the message of Islam.

I'm all for freedom of belief, because I think that only through investigating alternatives and finally settling on a religion based on conviction is the only way to actually be a true part of it. That's why I think that nobody should be denied knowledge of other religions, and everyone should be given the equal right to present their beliefs.

[Trumble]

personally I believe 100% in democracy, but everyone has their own choice

Socialism and democracy are not necessarily incompatible, although that does depend on which models, and definitions, of democracy and socialism you are talking about. I would hold though that there is rather more of a void between socialism and social democracy than Woodrow suggests.

Exactly how democratic the most commonly seen versions of 'democracy' actually are is, of course, another question.

[Jayda]

Hola Jayda :D
Can you tell me where this Islamic presence is concentrated the most?...or is it scattered all over?

hola Skywalker,

in general muslims live everywhere in central and south america... within each country the muslims are sometimes concentrated... for example in mexico there are many muslims in guadalajara, in Brazil i know there are many in sao paolo. i know many arabs live in columbia mostly christians but there are muslims.

Do you think that it's best that people in SA not know about Islam, or that they know about it and choose Christianity? I think the second option is better because it would make them stronger Christians while at the same time the Muslims would have done their duty and delivered the message of Islam.

i believe it is always best that they remain Catholic... so that they will have Salvation with Jesus and his Church. i think that is of primary importance... it is important that all Catholics know the dangerous heresies (such as Christ not being divine, which muslims believe) so that they can flock to orthodoxy, and i believe it is important that all Catholics know the good and wonderful things that non Christians believe that are shared beliefs with Catholicism... like belief in One God...

so i think it is good that Catholics are aware of other religious beliefs, but from a proper perspective... this means from what the Church teaches and not for example muslim missionaries... concretely Catholics should learn from the Church not dr zakir naik... that way they know what other people believe, are strengthened in their faith because they understand it better from a comparative standpoint, know what heresies to stay away from... but still know that there are different people in the world who must be respected and treated politely and as Catholics are meant to treat their neighbors...

I'm all for freedom of belief, because I think that only through investigating alternatives and finally settling on a religion based on conviction is the only way to actually be a true part of it. That's why I think that nobody should be denied knowledge of other religions, and everyone should be given the equal right to present their beliefs.

i think it is a good thing that we understand there are different religions and beliefs in the world, but it is the best thing that the different religions and beliefs are told to Catholics properly... muslim missionaries or people who are muslim would try to convert Catholics by telling them improper things... the Church is the best guide in all things and would teach properly the different beliefs of others without leading young Catholics astray... the Church is to guide toward God, the kind of freedom of belief you are talking about is a modern idea that does not have a place in the Churchs purpose... it is too easily a vehicle for misdirection...

all of this said, people in south and central america are not sheltered from other religions... and do not choose the Church over Islam because of ignorance... we know a lot about other religions. there is a muslim presence in south american and central america that teaches what it is about... i do not think that such a situation is best... as i said it is better the Church teaches about other religions than the people who walk those directions themselves since there is a serious threat of misguidance (intentionally, or merely blindly with good intentions)...

Dios te bendiga

[Khattab]

Argentina has its fair share of muslims also and the muslim owned Habibs fast food joints in Brasil are very famous too!

Interestingly I know brother who went to Venezuala and one guy he met could trace his lineage back to one of the companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him).

Im planning to go to Argentina next year and possibly also Peru, Brasil and Mexico along the way.

South Americans are very much family orientated like the muslims and also have the same mentality of helping one another out.

[Woodrow]

I have found the majority of South Americans to be very friendly and helpful. I used to go into Mexico very often and even vivir circa Reynosa por quatro Anos. (Lived in the Reynosa Area for four years).

Technicaly Mexico is in North America, but the culture is more South American. Well actually it is very unique.

The Mexican people are among the friendliest people I have ever met. I usualy prefered the smaller towns. My favorite is LaPesca a little fishing village. But, I only visited there a few times.

[Dawud_uk]

Socialism is great. If it works. Unfortunately, in ninety years or so of trying to put it into practice nobody has yet succesfully demonstrated that it can.

As you say, if Chavez does succeed other countries may follow. I'm not holding my breath.

i agree it doesnt work, but then neither does capitalism.

man made idiologies will inevitably have flaws.

Abu Abdullah

[Jayda]

I have found the majority of South Americans to be very friendly and helpful. I used to go into Mexico very often and even vivir circa Reynosa por quatro Anos. (Lived in the Reynosa Area for four years).

Technicaly Mexico is in North America, but the culture is more South American. Well actually it is very unique.

The Mexican people are among the friendliest people I have ever met. I usualy prefered the smaller towns. My favorite is LaPesca a little fishing village. But, I only visited there a few times.

hola Woodrow,

you are very interesting... i know most texans do not like mexicans very much...

have you ever been to Veracruz?

Dios te bendiga

[Woodrow]

hola Woodrow,

you are very interesting... i know most texans do not like mexicans very much...

have you ever been to Veracruz?

Dios te bendiga

I'm a transplant. This is the longest I have been in Texas. I originaly started life in Connecticut. But, after I left the Seminary I immediatly went into the AF for the next 7 years, got injured and ended my AF career. I eventualy got a legitimate Job and was able to retire when I was 50 and was in Louisiana at the time. Thought I'd settle in Mexico.I liked San Miguel Allende, but ended up just on the outskirts of Reynosa. Stayed there for almost 4 years, then crossed back to Texas and lived in the Valley. Most of the time in McAllen. So, I came to Texas from Mexico LOL Came out of retirement a few times and worked for the State of Texas. But, my health finaly gave out and I was no longer able to work. Now, I live with my daughter and her family. I met my second wife in Mexico, she was a Cherokee Indian originaly from North Carolina. How, she was in Mexico is another story.

No I never got to Veracruz. I kept intending to but never made it,

[Dawud_uk]

I'm a transplant. This is the longest I have been in Texas. I originaly started life in Connecticut. But, after I left the Seminary I immediatly went into the AF for the next 7 years, got injured and ended my AF career. I eventualy got a legitimate Job and was able to retire when I was 50 and was in Louisiana at the time. Thought I'd settle in Mexico.I liked San Miguel Allende, but ended up just on the outskirts of Reynosa. Stayed there for almost 4 years, then crossed back to Texas and lived in the Valley. Most of the time in McAllen. So, I came to Texas from Mexico LOL Came out of retirement a few times and worked for the State of Texas. But, my health finaly gave out and I was no longer able to work. Now, I live with my daughter and her family. I met my second wife in Mexico, she was a Cherokee Indian originaly from North Carolina. How, she was in Mexico is another story.

No I never got to Veracruz. I kept intending to but never made it,

woodrow is an illegal! he came over the border from mexico. lol

[Woodrow]

woodrow is an illegal! he came over the border from mexico. lol

Don't tell INS.

[Skywalker]

Don't tell INS.

Too late >:D hehehe

in general muslims live everywhere in central and south america... within each country the muslims are sometimes concentrated... for example in mexico there are many muslims in guadalajara, in Brazil i know there are many in sao paolo. i know many arabs live in columbia mostly christians but there are muslims.

Thanks for the info! I thought that Muslims were pretty much non-existant in SA. Interesting to know that there are some there too.

i believe it is always best that they remain Catholic... so that they will have Salvation with Jesus and his Church. i think that is of primary importance... it is important that all Catholics know the dangerous heresies (such as Christ not being divine, which muslims believe) so that they can flock to orthodoxy

Well any religion will tell you that they think it's best that all people be of that religion, but I think that people should be given all perspectives on different religions so that they can make up their own minds, and not follow blindly the conclusions of other. To be guided by them, yes, but not follow them without a second thought.

and i believe it is important that all Catholics know the good and wonderful things that non Christians believe that are shared beliefs with Catholicism... like belief in One God...

That's a very positive thing to do to promote inter-faith tolerance and peace with your neighbour and all that, but it's not very effective when searching for "the truth" to only look at similarities. I think the best way it to go and see what the other side has to say while at the same time see what your religion says about their arguments. I don't believe in a one-sided presentation for achieving conviction; all angles should be examined if you really want to find what works for you.

so i think it is good that Catholics are aware of other religious beliefs, but from a proper perspective... this means from what the Church teaches and not for example muslim missionaries...

Muslim missionaries...I didn't know such a thing existed...? Anyways, I'd have to disagree with that becuase no matter what, the perspective of the Church in this case would be biased. If a religion is the truth and they're confident it's the truth, they would not be afraid of letting their people explore other faiths and examine the similarities and differences on their own, but with proper guidance. You have to hear both sides of the argument to judge the truth for yourself.

concretely Catholics should learn from the Church not dr zakir naik... that way they know what other people believe, are strengthened in their faith because they understand it better from a comparative standpoint, know what heresies to stay away from... but still know that there are different people in the world who must be respected and treated politely and as Catholics are meant to treat their neighbors...

Agreed, but still, the Church would never say to someone "Islam is the truth because...", only Islam will say that, just as only Christianity can say that about itself, and the same applies for all religions. So when you learn about WHY each religion calls itself the truth and understand the reasoning and logic of each of its beliefs, along with finding out what your own religion says about these claims, only then are you qualified to make up your mind without a doubt, and be considered a true believer or whatever religion you choose.

the kind of freedom of belief you are talking about is a modern idea that does not have a place in the Churchs purpose... it is too easily a vehicle for misdirection...

It's a modern idea because the facilities to do this are only available now. But it's something that Islam has practiced since the beginning, with the limited facilites it had. People were allowed to believe what they wanted, and they were also presented with Islam as one of their options. They chose it out of their own free will, and a Muslim is only truly a Muslim if he's convinced of what he says he believes.

the Church is the best guide in all things and would teach properly the different beliefs of others without leading young Catholics astray

Again, all religions say this about themselves, but nevertheless, people should be left to explore the world and achieve their own conviction, but guidance from the Church or mosque or whatever you believe is always a plus.

[MTAFFI]

Too late >:D hehehe


Thanks for the info! I thought that Muslims were pretty much non-existant in SA. Interesting to know that there are some there too.


Well any religion will tell you that they think it's best that all people be of that religion, but I think that people should be given all perspectives on different religions so that they can make up their own minds, and not follow blindly the conclusions of other. To be guided by them, yes, but not follow them without a second thought.


That's a very positive thing to do to promote inter-faith tolerance and peace with your neighbour and all that, but it's not very effective when searching for "the truth" to only look at similarities. I think the best way it to go and see what the other side has to say while at the same time see what your religion says about their arguments. I don't believe in a one-sided presentation for achieving conviction; all angles should be examined if you really want to find what works for you.


Muslim missionaries...I didn't know such a thing existed...? Anyways, I'd have to disagree with that becuase no matter what, the perspective of the Church in this case would be biased. If a religion is the truth and they're confident it's the truth, they would not be afraid of letting their people explore other faiths and examine the similarities and differences on their own, but with proper guidance. You have to hear both sides of the argument to judge the truth for yourself.


Agreed, but still, the Church would never say to someone "Islam is the truth because...", only Islam will say that, just as only Christianity can say that about itself, and the same applies for all religions. So when you learn about WHY each religion calls itself the truth and understand the reasoning and logic of each of its beliefs, along with finding out what your own religion says about these claims, only then are you qualified to make up your mind without a doubt, and be considered a true believer or whatever religion you choose.


It's a modern idea because the facilities to do this are only available now. But it's something that Islam has practiced since the beginning, with the limited facilites it had. People were allowed to believe what they wanted, and they were also presented with Islam as one of their options. They chose it out of their own free will, and a Muslim is only truly a Muslim if he's convinced of what he says he believes.


Again, all religions say this about themselves, but nevertheless, people should be left to explore the world and achieve their own conviction, but guidance from the Church or mosque or whatever you believe is always a plus.

skywalker

I find it intriguing that you as a Muslim think that this should be done, since as far as I know Muslims are not to try to convert people but only tell them about Islam if asked. I also find it odd because if you convert from Islam it is punishable by death according to Islamic Law, so why would you think it is OK to go around attempting to convert Catholics? Islam is for people that need answers, or at least this is how I see it, as a Catholic I honestly dont need answers, I know what is right and wrong and I know there is a God and I know I worship him.. What is so wrong with a country like SA being Catholic, the middle east is Muslim and no one goes there trying to convert people. I am not trying to be offensive, but I just think if Islamic countries can make it a law that no one can try to convert the Muslims of their countries why should Muslims be allowed to come and try to convert people of other countries, I guess it just seems like a double standard to me

[Jayda]

Too late >:D hehehe


Thanks for the info! I thought that Muslims were pretty much non-existant in SA. Interesting to know that there are some there too.

hola Skywalker (may the force be with you :) )

de nada, in central and south america there is an idea of "mestizo" which is a race but really more of an idea... basically it is like the north american melting pot idea... many people coming together to become one people with different backgrounds... there are people from everywhere in south america :)

Well any religion will tell you that they think it's best that all people be of that religion, but I think that people should be given all perspectives on different religions so that they can make up their own minds, and not follow blindly the conclusions of other. To be guided by them, yes, but not follow them without a second thought.

i think maybe we do not understand each other... the Church is the pilgrim of God, it is meant to guide people to God and guide them away from things that are not God... there is no question regarding which religion is the right one, it is already known that Catholicism is right... the Church does encourage people to think and make decisions for themselves, but they must make decisions themselves with the best possible guidance from the Church, which means the full truth and not presenting all religions as being on equal footing or all possibly right...

That's a very positive thing to do to promote inter-faith tolerance and peace with your neighbour and all that, but it's not very effective when searching for "the truth" to only look at similarities. I think the best way it to go and see what the other side has to say while at the same time see what your religion says about their arguments. I don't believe in a one-sided presentation for achieving conviction; all angles should be examined if you really want to find what works for you.

well... i understand what you are saying but i think you misunderstand the position of the Church... the Church is bringing the Truth to people... not perpetuating their confusion with ambiguous messages about other possible "paths" or telling them to search all other paths that lead to nowhere first before they come back to the truth... things like other angles are illusions to try and trick people away from the truth, the Church stands as a bedrock against this...

but this should not be an excuse to be ignorant of the things other people believe, or to be hateful toward them... it is a good thing we know about other people, just as long as we do not become them or follow their misguided ways in the process... and i do not think that it is necessary to become somebody else in order to understand them at least enough that you can respect them as a neighbor...

Muslim missionaries...I didn't know such a thing existed...? Anyways, I'd have to disagree with that becuase no matter what, the perspective of the Church in this case would be biased. If a religion is the truth and they're confident it's the truth, they would not be afraid of letting their people explore other faiths and examine the similarities and differences on their own, but with proper guidance. You have to hear both sides of the argument to judge the truth for yourself.

i think maybe you are understanding what i am saying... the Church is the vehicle of God to bring the Truth, obviously the Church derives great confidence from this important mission and connection to God... and does invite people to examine all aspects of the faith for the purpose of better understanding it, which aids in their acceptance of the Truth. Not for the purpose of rejecting the Truth, this would be bad.

also the Church encourages us to know about other peoples ways of life... which includes the things they believe religiously, so that we may better understand them as people and neighbors... not so that we can follow their misguided ways or become tempted with these things.

because there are good things derived from questioning the Church and good things derived from examining other religions, the Church must find a way to show us how to achieve these benefits without being corrupted by the negative temptations that are associated with such examinations... this is exactly why the Church gives as you say "proper guidance" concerning these other religions... information in which temptation is filtered from it... it is best that it is done this way because as the Bible says the gates of hell can never prevail against the Church.

Agreed, but still, the Church would never say to someone "Islam is the truth because...", only Islam will say that, just as only Christianity can say that about itself, and the same applies for all religions. So when you learn about WHY each religion calls itself the truth and understand the reasoning and logic of each of its beliefs, along with finding out what your own religion says about these claims, only then are you qualified to make up your mind without a doubt, and be considered a true believer or whatever religion you choose.

this is correct... the Church would never say to somebody "X religion is the truth, not Catholicism" because the Churchs responsibility is to guide people toward truth... not misguide them toward deception. but invariably people who are misguided will say "follow x religion, and not the Church" either because they delight in deception or i think more often is the case they have convinced themselves that their misguidance is not misguidance... all the same it is untruth and temptation, and good Christians should flee from deception and enjoin the things God has given us that are unquestionable sources of Truth.

you are a true believer if in full knowledge of the Truth, which does not mean knowing about every possible variation of untruth and rejecting them, and they choose to enjoin it... to do otherwise is mortal sin.

It's a modern idea because the facilities to do this are only available now. But it's something that Islam has practiced since the beginning, with the limited facilites it had. People were allowed to believe what they wanted, and they were also presented with Islam as one of their options. They chose it out of their own free will, and a Muslim is only truly a Muslim if he's convinced of what he says he believes.

i think this makes sense in terms of islam because islam really thinks of itself as a "religion" that came from God to compete against other man made "religions" ... Catholicism is called a religion because that is convenient in lingua franca, but it is not how the Church concieves of this... Christianity is a mission and a ministry continuing from Jesus time on Earth, it is a call to an entire way of life and way of thinking and it is the only true path. the Holy Church was created to protect the people of the ministry and to continue guideing them... we are following Jesus, not entering into a "religion" (like entering a club or joining a team) as the common term is used...

there is only the path Jesus gave us, and being lost... the Church guides us down Jesus narrow path, the only other choice is fending for yourself in the wild...

so why would a good guide say "walk down that path for a little while, see if you find anything," simply to proove that staying on the main road is a better idea such a guide would be useless... the Church could never encourage that kind of teaching... instead the Church is the steady guide, just as Jesus is the steady guide, and teaches you to be aware that there is a big wide world around you, and that there is a little tiny narrow path that is difficult to see, and the Church guides you down the path and when you think to look into the wild to make your own way the Church sternly warns you of the dangers that are out there...

the choice is still yours... you could choose to ignore the Churchs good guidance and enter into the woods... but the guide try everything to protect you from making such a mistake, and if you make it the guide will wait for you to return.

the guide will never tell you to explore so that you should believe him.

islam as you are explaining considers itself a religion competing with other religions and so you must explore the other religions so that comparatively islam can be comparatively more true...

i think this kind of thinking is very close to self deception... because you are exploring a confusing world of false promises in a setting of moral relativity to sort out what is comparatively best... why seek God in such a place? God is the antithesis of moral relativeness and falsehood...

Again, all religions say this about themselves, but nevertheless, people should be left to explore the world and achieve their own conviction, but guidance from the Church or mosque or whatever you believe is always a plus.

i think maybe i explained myself better toward the end of my post than the beginning because this is very close to what i have meant... we are Gods children, and children can easily become lost in this big scary world when they wish to explore it... this is why parents hold their hands and show them things themselves...

muchos gracias
Dios te bendiga

and may the force be with you!

my name is annette btw, i think you are new but i have not seen your greetings thread... it is very delightful talking to you.

adios

[Dawud_uk]

skywalker

I find it intriguing that you as a Muslim think that this should be done, since as far as I know Muslims are not to try to convert people but only tell them about Islam if asked. I also find it odd because if you convert from Islam it is punishable by death according to Islamic Law, so why would you think it is OK to go around attempting to convert Catholics? Islam is for people that need answers, or at least this is how I see it, as a Catholic I honestly dont need answers, I know what is right and wrong and I know there is a God and I know I worship him.. What is so wrong with a country like SA being Catholic, the middle east is Muslim and no one goes there trying to convert people. I am not trying to be offensive, but I just think if Islamic countries can make it a law that no one can try to convert the Muslims of their countries why should Muslims be allowed to come and try to convert people of other countries, I guess it just seems like a double standard to me

actually christian missionaries get caught and thrown out of the middle east all the time, in some countries they positively encourage them to come as they see it as encouraging a western mindset so is in line with the govt's agenda there.

as for islam, we dont wait to be aasked. we can tell people and this is a duty, the difference is we do not go into the window salesman tactics of bombarding them with info, and if they dont accept fine we walk away it is between them and God.

as for you own statements, well do you truly worship God alone? christians dont. they worship God, and Jesus and the holy Ghost. this is blasphemy to a muslim and is associating a partner and although we respect our rights to differ it is still a wrong belief and we would want to help as many people out of that belief as possible including yourself.

Abu Abdullah

[MTAFFI]

as for islam, we dont wait to be aasked. we can tell people and this is a duty, the difference is we do not go into the window salesman tactics of bombarding them with info, and if they dont accept fine we walk away it is between them and God.

I did not know that, thanks for the info

as for you own statements, well do you truly worship God alone? christians dont. they worship God, and Jesus and the holy Ghost. this is blasphemy to a muslim and is associating a partner and although we respect our rights to differ it is still a wrong belief and we would want to help as many people out of that belief as possible including yourself.

Abu Abdullah

I am a Christian and I do only worship one God, this is definitely a discussion for another thread, however I feel compelled to tell you that me as a person, and I am not speaking for all Christians, believe that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all the same entity. I do not worship Jesus or the Holy Spirit, however I do believe that God works through these two, and therefore I incorporate them into my religion as a sign of respect for them. I would also like to say that I think it is wrong of you to say that it is "a wrong belief" because to you it may be but to me, this is my way of life and there is nothing wrong with it. There are things about the Muslim faith I could say are "wrong" but I wont because really I think all faiths have a certain something that might make them more or less accurate than another.

peace

[Dawud_uk]

I did not know that, thanks for the info



I am a Christian and I do only worship one God, this is definitely a discussion for another thread, however I feel compelled to tell you that me as a person, and I am not speaking for all Christians, believe that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all the same entity. I do not worship Jesus or the Holy Spirit, however I do believe that God works through these two, and therefore I incorporate them into my religion as a sign of respect for them. I would also like to say that I think it is wrong of you to say that it is "a wrong belief" because to you it may be but to me, this is my way of life and there is nothing wrong with it. There are things about the Muslim faith I could say are "wrong" but I wont because really I think all faiths have a certain something that might make them more or less accurate than another.

peace

i did not mean to disrespect you, only that i have a duty to call towards the truth, to speak out and tell you the truth. it is your choice what you do with it.

i would say God works through all beings and all things, God is the ultimate provider and determiner of everything so therefore whatever is done is truly done by the will of God as it couldnt happen without God.

as muslims we love and respect Jesus Christ, peace be upon him as one of the prophets and messengers of God.

the spirit of God as christians say who delivers the message to different prophets is obviously to us likely to be an angel if such accounts are truthful.

do you know that practically every christian i know would call you a disbeliever for what you have said?

peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,
Abu Abdullah

[MTAFFI]

do you know that practically every christian i know would call you a disbeliever for what you have said?

peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,
Abu Abdullah

funny you should say that, as it has been said to me before, however I dont really care what anyone thinks as far as my faith goes, usually I will respond to these people with the Apostles Creed which has a line in it that specifically says "I believe in one God the father the almighty, the maker of Heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen". I believe in God and I have read his word, and the way I interpret it may be different from others, but it is what I believe is right.

Not only that, and I know this might spawn some controversy, but I do not really have much faith in religions. I love going to Catholic church because I like the service and the readings and homilies but as far as the "catholic" or "protestant" or "islam" or whatever goes I dont really care. We all believe in God and there is the same basic rules that we should live by, so what difference does it make if you pray in a church or mosque, or in a field for that matter. As long as you believe in God that is all that matters.

[Jayda]

hola everyone,

we do not believe in a major god and two minor ones, or three separate equal gods, or that God is one of three individuals with two other partners in a Trinity...

we believe in the One (singular) True God.

Dios te bendiga

[MTAFFI]

hola everyone,

we do not believe in a major god and two minor ones, or three separate equal gods, or that God is one of three individuals with two other partners in a Trinity...

we believe in the One (singular) True God.

Dios te bendiga

I do not agree with this, however everyone is entitled to their own ideas. I believe the holy spirit is God talking to man, and i believe the father is another name for God, but I do not believe Jesus was God. I believe Jesus was the son of God and a Prophet who died for our sins, and is now in Heaven with God.

[Jayda]

I do not agree with this, however everyone is entitled to their own ideas. I believe the holy spirit is God talking to man, and i believe the father is another name for God, but I do not believe Jesus was God. I believe Jesus was the son of God and a Prophet who died for our sins, and is now in Heaven with God.

hola MTAFFI,

i do not mean to sound mean but if you are not agreeing with the scutum fidei you are not agreeing with the Trinity... which is a very serious problem... have you talked to your priest about the Holy Trinity... ?

Dios te bendiga...

[Dawud_uk]

funny you should say that, as it has been said to me before, however I dont really care what anyone thinks as far as my faith goes, usually I will respond to these people with the Apostles Creed which has a line in it that specifically says "I believe in one God the father the almighty, the maker of Heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen". I believe in God and I have read his word, and the way I interpret it may be different from others, but it is what I believe is right.

Not only that, and I know this might spawn some controversy, but I do not really have much faith in religions. I love going to Catholic church because I like the service and the readings and homilies but as far as the "catholic" or "protestant" or "islam" or whatever goes I dont really care. We all believe in God and there is the same basic rules that we should live by, so what difference does it make if you pray in a church or mosque, or in a field for that matter. As long as you believe in God that is all that matters.

surely it should be what God wants that matters?

hence the disagreements over religion, but would you not agree it is not what you or me think that matters but what God wants for us?

hence why we have to look to scripture. are you happy with the christian scripture as a true guide to God's will?

peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,
Abu Abdullah

[MTAFFI]

hola MTAFFI,

i do not mean to sound mean but if you are not agreeing with the scutum fidei you are not agreeing with the Trinity... which is a very serious problem... have you talked to your priest about the Holy Trinity... ?

Dios te bendiga...

yes i have, however it is just no amount of explaining is going to convince me that Jesus was God, I mean it says in the bible he is his son, which I do believe, but I do not believe that God is the same as Jesus. Preists always tell me to pray and they will pray for me, but really I have talked to one about it in a long time because we couldnt come to any medium. He wanted me to believe one thing and from what I have read in the bible and other books I dont think Jesus was supposed to be God on Earth.

[MTAFFI]

surely it should be what God wants that matters?

of course it is

hence the disagreements over religion, but would you not agree it is not what you or me think that matters but what God wants for us?

right

hence why we have to look to scripture. are you happy with the christian scripture as a true guide to God's will?

I dont just read the bible, I have read much of the Quran and I have read into Thaoism along with a few others, and I take what strikes me as what God meant from each of these books and apply it to my own life, or as much as any man can.

peace be with you

[Skywalker]

Hey, looks like we're going off-topic here a bit...and I don't want this to turn into an inter-faith discussion because they can get messy if not controlled properly. Anyways, I'll try to minimize inter-faith talk in my reply...if I can...

skywalker

I find it intriguing that you as a Muslim think that this should be done, since as far as I know Muslims are not to try to convert people but only tell them about Islam if asked. I also find it odd because if you convert from Islam it is punishable by death according to Islamic Law, so why would you think it is OK to go around attempting to convert Catholics? Islam is for people that need answers, or at least this is how I see it, as a Catholic I honestly dont need answers, I know what is right and wrong and I know there is a God and I know I worship him.. What is so wrong with a country like SA being Catholic, the middle east is Muslim and no one goes there trying to convert people. I am not trying to be offensive, but I just think if Islamic countries can make it a law that no one can try to convert the Muslims of their countries why should Muslims be allowed to come and try to convert people of other countries, I guess it just seems like a double standard to me

Interestingly enough, there a LOT of Christian missionaries in places like Egypt, who usually target areas with low levels of education, where most people don't know jack about Islam, like the south of Egypt for example, and they build schools and churches all over the place. It doesn't seem like they're playing fair, but oh well, God knows all that they do. Islam does not work through missions or anything like that at all. We don't go door to door or anything like that, we just provide facilities for those who are interested in learning about it. We do try to reach as many people as possible with the message of Islam, but only to deliver the message. If they wish to pursue further knowledge on their own free will, we try to facilitate that as well. A lot of people these days are taking an interest in Islam because of its financial policies, and now banks all over the US and Europe are starting to incorporate Islamic Shariah in their policies. That's one way that Islam spreads, people get attracted to the logic, the justice, and the wisdom that Islam provides, and then go on to learn more about it.

"I believe in one God the father the almighty, the maker of Heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen"

Wow, take out the word father and you're a Muslim bro! :D

hola Skywalker (may the force be with you )

Hola amiga, may the Force be with you too :P

the Church is bringing the Truth to people... not perpetuating their confusion with ambiguous messages about other possible "paths" or telling them to search all other paths that lead to nowhere first before they come back to the truth... things like other angles are illusions to try and trick people away from the truth, the Church stands as a bedrock against this...

Well Islam doesn't tell everyone to go out and do heavy exploration either, but each person should do as much exploration as they need to reach a state of conviction. For example, you could have a person who only needs to read the Qur'an to be conviced that it's the truth, while someone else would like to read the Qur'an, the Bible, the Torah, and any other religious book to be convinced that Islam is the truth. It depends on the nature of the person, but nobody should be denied the right to explore other religions, especially if a person is born into a religion that they don't feel like they belong in.

and i do not think that it is necessary to become somebody else in order to understand them at least enough that you can respect them as a neighbor...

Well I never said that you need to become someone else, but it's good to see things from several points of view instead of just one. We're in the 21st century, we have the facilites, why not make use of them?

because there are good things derived from questioning the Church and good things derived from examining other religions, the Church must find a way to show us how to achieve these benefits without being corrupted by the negative temptations that are associated with such examinations... this is exactly why the Church gives as you say "proper guidance" concerning these other religions... information in which temptation is filtered from it...

In other words...only their version of the truth is allowed to reach the ears of their followers, and anything else would be a sin? That's a little twisted, don't you think? Islam also gives "proper guidance" with filtered information and all that, but it also tells people to read, the educate themselves, because only though education and knowledge can a person really appreciate God's beautiful creations and only through knowing other religions can a person be truly grateful that God has guided them to Islam.

i think this makes sense in terms of islam because islam really thinks of itself as a "religion" that came from God to compete against other man made "religions" ... Catholicism is called a religion because that is convenient in lingua franca, but it is not how the Church concieves of this... Christianity is a mission and a ministry continuing from Jesus time on Earth, it is a call to an entire way of life and way of thinking and it is the only true path. the Holy Church was created to protect the people of the ministry and to continue guideing them... we are following Jesus, not entering into a "religion" (like entering a club or joining a team) as the common term is used...

This is the main point that I wanted to clear up, because I don't think you have the proper understanding of what Islam is. It's not just a religion, it's a complete way of life, from etiquette, to economy, to politics, to how many gulps of water to take when drinking...there is no set of rules for life more complete or more encompassing than Islam.

islam as you are explaining considers itself a religion competing with other religions and so you must explore the other religions so that comparatively islam can be comparatively more true...

Not at all, as I said before, you're not required to examine all religions to be convinced, but if you must for your own reasons, then so be it. Therefore Islam is not competing with any other religion, it doesn't need to compete, it's just one of the choices that a free-minded individual can consider when he asks himself the question, "Who am I?"

i think this kind of thinking is very close to self deception... because you are exploring a confusing world of false promises in a setting of moral relativity to sort out what is comparatively best... why seek God in such a place?

Where you see self-deception I see self-enlightenment. I agree with you that going out onto the sea by yourself is dangerous, that's why I completely support guidance from your religion, but not pure indoctrination. Sometimes a person needs to see things for himself to be convinced of the truth, but as I said, different people need different levels of knowledge to achieve conviction.

As for the trinity pic...can anybody explain that to me, because logically or mathematically it makes no sense at all...

my name is annette btw, i think you are new but i have not seen your greetings thread... it is very delightful talking to you.

Very nice meeting you Annette, and yeah you can check out my greeting thread in the intros forum.

If I could just mention something; you might want rephrase some of your statements like "the Church is the truth" to something along the lines of "we believe that the Church is the truth", because we are after all in an inter-faith forum, and some people might take offence. I myself have no problem with it, but it's better to be politically correct cuz you don't know how some individuals might respond to different comments. Anyways, sorry if I said anything out of line.

Adios amiga!

If I keep writing long posts like this, I'm gonna be a limited member for a very long time....grrrrr

[Skywalker]

I dont just read the bible, I have read much of the Quran and I have read into Thaoism along with a few others, and I take what strikes me as what God meant from each of these books and apply it to my own life, or as much as any man can.

Nice...I like that. Go with what makes sense to you. God punishes those who know the truth and turn away from it, but for someone who tries hard to find the truth, and goes to the limit of his mental capabilities but still can't find it, I think God will forgive him, because he tried.

My advice is: don't go with what's easier, go with what makes more sense.






Yippee, I'm one step closer to getting my 50 posts!

[Jayda]

hola Skywalker,

i think it is the underlying concept of the unity of the three and not the existence of the three that confuses you...

this is a trefoil clover leaf:

the left leaflet is not the top leaflet
which is yet still not the right leaflet
which in turn is not the left leaflet

but they are one leaf... not three leaves.

Dios te bendiga

[Skywalker]

So in other words, the arrows pointing from the entities of "Father", "Son", and "Holy Spirit" to the word "GOD" should not have the word "IS" on them, but rather "Is part of"? Is that what you mean?

The Islamic idea of God is a lot more simple, and to me personally, it makes more sense. Here's a representation of God in Islam:

[Jayda]

So in other words, the arrows pointing from the entities of "Father", "Son", and "Holy Spirit" to the word "GOD" should not have the word "IS" on them, but rather "Is part of"? Is that what you mean?

hola Skywalker,

not precisely, i used the clover to demonstrate how three independent things can be one organ... in reality anything that is part of God, is God... there is no such thing as seeing "a little bit of God" making it only "partially worth of worship."

God can be everywhere, even at once. since his is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient and has no restrictions (including time and space). so just like when you feel Gods presence in your life (a big promotion, a kind word, a good moral decision), even though you know he is somewhere else in the world and in heaven, you do not say "this is God, but it is merely a part of Him because I know he is also elsewhere right now." you still believe this to be the full divine diety, you are just seeing him from a certain perspective... so he is fully worthy of your praises.

likewise when we see a particular personae of the Holy Trinity, we believe that to be God... not a part of God, still recognizing that there is more of God we are not directly seeing at that time.

The Islamic idea of God is a lot more simple, and to me personally, it makes more sense. Here's a representation of God in Islam:

i think we are not talking about the same thing... issues of Gods singularity "there is one God," "there are no other gods" "there are no associations" unity "God is one" and dominion "God is over all" are not about the nature of God... Holy Trinity is about what God "looks like," what His nature is, how he is comprised.

i look at your diagram and do not disagree (except for Jinn which i do not believe exist), except when I see the big circle for God i realize that God does have a nature, does look like something and that is where my Trinity beliefs become manifested.

muchos gracias
Dios te bendiga

[Skywalker]

not precisely, i used the clover to demonstrate how three independent things can be one organ... in reality anything that is part of God, is God...

Hola Jayda!

I don't know if I'm convinced of that logic; I mean how can a part of something BE that something? It's like saying that the leg of the chair I'm sitting on IS the chair. Of course that's not true, because if I wanted, I could cut that leg off and it would't be a part of the chair anymore, but the chair would still be a chair...but an incomplete chair. Same with the clover, if you take out one leaf, the clover is still a clover, but a leaf on it's own is just a leaf.

God can be everywhere, even at once. since his is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient and has no restrictions (including time and space).

I don't know what the Islamic view on this is, so if anybody else knows more about this, I'd be glad to hear it. For me though, I don't think that God occupies all time and space at the same time. If that were the case, we would also be part of God since we are part of that space, and by your logic, anything that is part of God is God...and obviously none of us is God. I think God has the ability to occupy any and every part of space and time if and when He desires, but He doesn't because He doesn't need to. We know from the Qur'an that He has a Throne on which He sits, that is above the heavens and the earth, from which He can see every little thing that happens among His creations.

i look at your diagram and do not disagree (except for Jinn which i do not believe exist), except when I see the big circle for God i realize that God does have a nature, does look like something and that is where my Trinity beliefs become manifested

The only difference is that we as Muslims see Jesus (pbuh) as one of God's prophets, hence only His creation, and the Holy Spirit as (I think, please correct me if I'm wrong) Gabriel the messenger angel, and again one of His creations. God Himself is only one part, perfect in every way. Perfection is defined by independance, so if God needs 3 parts in order to be whole, He is therefore dependant, and thus, imperfect.

By the way, are the powers of the 3 "parts of God" in your religion equal, or do some parties have more power than the rest? For example, why did "the Son" ask "the Father" to save him from the humans that were hurting him if he could've just pulled himself out of that mess?

(except for Jinn which i do not believe exist)

I was always curious as to the Christian explanation of how the devil reaches so many minds at the same time if he doesn't have minions? Can you provide some info on that?

Take care amiga!

[Jayda]

Hola Jayda!

I don't know if I'm convinced of that logic; I mean how can a part of something BE that something? It's like saying that the leg of the chair I'm sitting on IS the chair. Of course that's not true, because if I wanted, I could cut that leg off and it would't be a part of the chair anymore, but the chair would still be a chair...but an incomplete chair. Same with the clover, if you take out one leaf, the clover is still a clover, but a leaf on it's own is just a leaf.

hola Skywalker,

i think it is important to remember that the clover was used to demonstrate how three can be one (as sacred scripture and tradition says God is comprised of a Father, Son and Holy Spirit)...

after that point we must be careful in how we use allegories or allusions in describing the nature of God. we must remember that the reason for the allegory is to explain a revelation or group of revelations concerning the nature of God that is difficult to understand. the rule is look to the bible and sacred tradition for the truth or the raw information, then use allegories or demonstrations to help explain these things or better understand them.

sacred Scripture and Tradition also tell us that God is eternal, which of course means he cannot be destroyed or come to an end, the very idea of this is impossible. therefore discussing the ability to destroy a clover by separating a trefoil from it, or a chair by cutting off a leg cannot possibly still be describing God since we know he cannot be destroyed.

so it is best to remember that allegories are not meant to elaborate lessons upon basic already revealed truths... we cannot turn these allegories into the truths themselves.

I don't know what the Islamic view on this is, so if anybody else knows more about this, I'd be glad to hear it. For me though, I don't think that God occupies all time and space at the same time. If that were the case, we would also be part of God since we are part of that space, and by your logic, anything that is part of God is God...and obviously none of us is God. I think God has the ability to occupy any and every part of space and time if and when He desires, but He doesn't because He doesn't need to. We know from the Qur'an that He has a Throne on which He sits, that is above the heavens and the earth, from which He can see every little thing that happens among His creations.

in Christianity God is supreme, has the ability to transcend time and space and in certain situations which have been directly revealed to us, he does just this.

the image of a Zeus-like deity literally sitting upon a throne as an image of power just as humans do, commanding his soldiers against the anti-god Satan who likewise sits upon a throne and commands his soldiers against God goes against what we have been taught from God about God. i hear these things and cannot help but see that this is God made in Man's image...

He is active in the affairs of people, chooses to dwell in our hearts to guide us (through the Holy Spirit), chooses to incarnate Himself to (among other things) show us how we are meant to follow Him, and chooses to be in heaven, and all at the same time should he choose to (and the sacred tradition and scriptures tell us that he does this).

a muslim told me that muslims believe God is in Heaven, christians believe God is everywhere, and hindus believe God is everything... i think i agree...

The only difference is that we as Muslims see Jesus (pbuh) as one of God's prophets, hence only His creation, and the Holy Spirit as (I think, please correct me if I'm wrong) Gabriel the messenger angel, and again one of His creations. God Himself is only one part, perfect in every way. Perfection is defined by independance, so if God needs 3 parts in order to be whole, He is therefore dependant, and thus, imperfect.

God does not need to be triune... God is triune... questions concerning why He decided to be as He is are not things we can answer because they are not revealed to us... the nature of God is only given to us in shades directly through revelation.

i think from what you said muslims do not have a difficulty with God being triune, rather their difficulty is that we identify Jesus, whom you consider to be a mere man, and the Holy Spirit, which you misidentify as an angel, to be part of God yes?

but you must recognize that it is not our belief that Jesus was a mere man or the angel Gabriel is the Holy Spirit. we believe Jesus had two natures, man and divine and that the Holy Spirit is also a divine person of the Trinity. we believe this because scripture and tradition revealed these things to us.

By the way, are the powers of the 3 "parts of God" in your religion equal, or do some parties have more power than the rest? For example, why did "the Son" ask "the Father" to save him from the humans that were hurting him if he could've just pulled himself out of that mess?

I was always curious as to the Christian explanation of how the devil reaches so many minds at the same time if he doesn't have minions? Can you provide some info on that?

Take care amiga!

we do believe Diablo has servants, who are fellow fallen angels as he is. however we do believe he is a pure spirit and therefore is more powerful than we are, so he is responsible for tempting us and trying to draw us into sin. we do not know why God allows this, we know that He does allow Diablo to continue to exist, will punish Diablo and the other fallen angels on judgment day, and that He has reasons for this.

we do not believe in Jinn. Jinn according to the muslims i have talked to are creatures created from smoke that have entire civilizations here on earth, and we cannot see them, and just like humans they have freewill and follow prophets and God and will have a judgment day...

this does not exist in Christianity, i do not think i have heard of this in anything other than arabic religions... genies and things like this...

in Christianity God created angels to serve Him, and Man to serve Him on Earth, but Man was made differently and is special Man can choose God or Evil... then there are the cursed ones who are angels, but have rebelled and therefore no longer can be called angelos (messenger), but are of the same substance as angels (pure spirit) and of the same origin... they have sinfully chosen to rebel against God.

if you have any questions i think it is best to look at the Roman Catholic Catechism.

this explains in extreme depth everything we must believe, in the form of the apostles creed ("i believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth...") broken down into sections which is very helpful...

Dios te bendiga

[Skywalker]

Hola hola!

i think it is important to remember that the clover was used to demonstrate how three can be one

Actually it demonstrates that three can be a part of one, not that they can be one.

we must remember that the reason for the allegory is to explain a revelation or group of revelations concerning the nature of God that is difficult to understand. the rule is look to the bible and sacred tradition for the truth or the raw information, then use allegories or demonstrations to help explain these things or better understand them

Can you give us any scriptural referrences that describe the nature of God in your religion, and how this "trinity" plays a part of His nature?

therefore discussing the ability to destroy a clover by separating a trefoil from it, or a chair by cutting off a leg cannot possibly still be describing God since we know he cannot be destroyed.

God cannot be destroyed, but if the "three parts of Him" were to separate, hypothetically like when Jesus (pbuh) came to earth, would this mean that there was no God at that time?

He is active in the affairs of people, chooses to dwell in our hearts to guide us (through the Holy Spirit), chooses to incarnate Himself to (among other things) show us how we are meant to follow Him, and chooses to be in heaven, and all at the same time should he choose to (and the sacred tradition and scriptures tell us that he does this).

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but why would God personally come to Earth to tell His tiny little creations how to worship Him? What if He has created many other civilizations like our own throughout the universe? Would He personally have to visit each one? Why would God make Himself vulnerable to the ignorant attacks of His own creations if He has the power the make them not exist in an instant? Why not just communicate to one from among them to relay His divine message?

i think from what you said muslims do not have a difficulty with God being triune, rather their difficulty is that we identify Jesus, whom you consider to be a mere man, and the Holy Spirit, which you misidentify as an angel, to be part of God yes?

Actually we don't look at Jesus (pbuh) as a mere man, but one of the holy prophets of God. To believe that a person or an angel as being divine or having any power that God hasn't given them is the biggest and the only unforgivable sin in Islam. God is one and only, with no partners, none that share His power, none that compare to Him in power.

I'm interested in your response to this question from my last post:

By the way, are the powers of the 3 "parts of God" in your religion equal, or do some parties have more power than the rest? For example, why did "the Son" ask "the Father" to save him from the humans that were hurting him if he could've just pulled himself out of that mess?

in Christianity God created angels to serve Him, and Man to serve Him on Earth, but Man was made differently and is special Man can choose God or Evil... then there are the cursed ones who are angels, but have rebelled and therefore no longer can be called angelos (messenger), but are of the same substance as angels (pure spirit) and of the same origin... they have sinfully chosen to rebel against God.

I talked with a Christian about the existance of jinn and he told me that there is nothing in Christian scripture that denies their existance, and that it does mention "the demonic" or similar words to describe the minions of Satan, which he told me could possibly mean something like the jinn. Is this true?

Lastly, about the apostle's creed...

i believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth

Doesn't this seem to mean that it's actually the "Father" that is God, and that He is the Creator of the heavens and the Earth? It doesn't mention the Son or Holy Ghost, what's that about?

Adios!

[Fishman]

hola Skywalker,

i think it is the underlying concept of the unity of the three and not the existence of the three that confuses you...

this is a trefoil clover leaf:

the left leaflet is not the top leaflet
which is yet still not the right leaflet
which in turn is not the left leaflet

but they are one leaf... not three leaves.

Dios te bendiga

:sl:
They are three leaves. They are separate from each other right where they join the stem.
:w:

[Jayda]

:sl:
They are three leaves. They are separate from each other right where they join the stem.
:w:

hola Fishman,

this is not so... botanically this is one leaf, in order to avoid confusion they call the protrusions "leaflets" so that it is understood they are distinct... but it is one leaf.

See the wikipedia article...

The scientific name derives from the Latin tres, "three", and folium, "leaf", so called from the characteristic form of the leaf, which has three leaflets (trifoliate); hence the popular name trefoil. Clovers are used as food plants by the larvae of some Lepidoptera species; see list of Lepidoptera which feed on Clovers.

Dios te bendiga

[Fishman]

hola Fishman,

this is not so... botanically this is one leaf, in order to avoid confusion they call the protrusions "leaflets" so that it is understood they are distinct... but it is one leaf.

See the wikipedia article...



Dios te bendiga

:sl:
It's still three separate leaves though! :D

Anyway, according to that analogy, Jesus (sulallaahu aleyhi wasalam), God and the holy spirit wouldn't be God, they would be 'Godlets', smaller and less powerful than God, because it is logically impossible for God to be all-seeing, all-knowing and all-powerful and at the same time have something more powerful than Him.
:w:

[Jayda]

Hola hola!

:) hola...

im sorry if i am annoying you... it just feels impolite to not have a salutation and valediction when i am speaking with somebody... i will stop..

Actually it demonstrates that three can be a part of one, not that they can be one.

but according to the explanation of the trefoil three things are forming one thing... so that was all i was attempting to explain with that...

however as i said before we must be careful that the allegory is not confused for the thing itself... God is God no matter what "part" you experience of Him... I do not debate that he has parts like me or you or a tree or a shamrock, but I do say that we must be careful to not make the mistake of believing the parts can be separated or that they do not represent God in His fullness...

like we cannot say "oh but this is only God's Word, it is not all of God so ignore it" because as the Bible says Gods word is God, even as a part of Him it still Him and must be treated as Him... or even worse making the mistake of saying "If this is Gods Word and the rest of Him is somewhere else than He is destroyed!" because God is eternal.

Can you give us any scriptural referrences that describe the nature of God in your religion, and how this "trinity" plays a part of His nature?

si,

All of John 1,

1 John 5:20: "We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life."

Matthew 28:19: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

Luke 1:35: "The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God."

John 10:38: "But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

Phillipians 2:5-6: "Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God,"

Revelation 1:17-18: "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades." (Isaiah 44:6: "This is what the LORD says - Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.")

John 10:30: "I and the Father are one."

Hebrews 1:8 recalls a prophecy from Psalms demonstrating a conversation between the Father and Son attesting to their divinity (the Father calling the Son God, the Son calling the Father God).

8 But of the Son He says,
"YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

9 "YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."

finally there is the comma johannum

1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

but i am curious why you are only asking about the bible? Catholics believe in the bible and tradition which are both revelation guarded by God... sacred tradition holds trinitarian beliefs back to the beginning... the declaration of the apostles in 70ad quotes our trinitarian baptismal formula.

God cannot be destroyed, but if the "three parts of Him" were to separate, hypothetically like when Jesus (pbuh) came to earth, would this mean that there was no God at that time?

the persons of God have never been separated... such a thing is impossible. Jesus on Earth said to us that the Father and he were one, and that He was in the Father and the Father was in Him...

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but why would God personally come to Earth to tell His tiny little creations how to worship Him? What if He has created many other civilizations like our own throughout the universe? Would He personally have to visit each one? Why would God make Himself vulnerable to the ignorant attacks of His own creations if He has the power the make them not exist in an instant? Why not just communicate to one from among them to relay His divine message?

God loves us and wished to teach us Himself... as the Catechism explains: The Word became flesh to be our model of holiness: "Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me." "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me."74 On the mountain of the Transfiguration, the Father commands: "Listen to him!"75 Jesus is the model for the Beatitudes and the norm of the new law: "Love one another as I have loved you."76 This love implies an effective offering of oneself, after his example.77

but please remember that Jesus came to do much more than be a model of Holiness...

Actually we don't look at Jesus (pbuh) as a mere man, but one of the holy prophets of God. To believe that a person or an angel as being divine or having any power that God hasn't given them is the biggest and the only unforgivable sin in Islam. God is one and only, with no partners, none that share His power, none that compare to Him in power.

but we do not believe God has partners, shares power or is comparable to anyone...

I'm interested in your response to this question from my last post:

all the persons of God have equal power, judgment and authority... but not necessarily the same purpose at any given time... the Father remained in Heaven, Jesus fulfilled his purpose on Earth and then the Holy Spirit came to be with us all... Jesus says many times in the Bible that His authority is that of the Fathers...

I talked with a Christian about the existance of jinn and he told me that there is nothing in Christian scripture that denies their existance, and that it does mention "the demonic" or similar words to describe the minions of Satan, which he told me could possibly mean something like the jinn. Is this true?

according to the Catholic faith there are no other creations besides the angels (fallen and not), the animals of the world and God's unique creation Man... there is also no other creation that is given free will... so that necessarily precludes Jinn. the minions of Satan are fellow fallen angels, not jinn... tradition and scripture uphold this, they are pure spirits, not smoke.

Lastly, about the apostle's creed...

Doesn't this seem to mean that it's actually the "Father" that is God, and that He is the Creator of the heavens and the Earth? It doesn't mention the Son or Holy Ghost, what's that about?

Adios!

i'm sorry i used an elipses thinking you were familiar with our apostles creed... there is much much more... in fact the first three lines are about the Trinity...

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.

He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit
and born of the Virgin Mary.

He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again.

He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,

the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,

the forgiveness of sins,

the resurrection of the body,

and the life everlasting.
Amen.

Dios te bendiga!

[Jayda]

:sl:
It's still three separate leaves though! :D

hola Fishman,

i do not mean to sound redundant or something... but no... they are biologically one leaf... please read the wikipedia article for a better explanation than the one i gave you... i think i am confusing you

Anyway, according to that analogy, Jesus (sulallaahu aleyhi wasalam), God and the holy spirit wouldn't be God, they would be 'Godlets', smaller and less powerful than God, because it is logically impossible for God to be all-seeing, all-knowing and all-powerful and at the same time have something more powerful than Him.
:w:

well... this is what i am trying to explain to skywalker, i was only illustrating how three things can be one... i am not saying that we believe God is a shamrock...

we believe that anything that is part of God is God... we do not say "this is merely the hand of God, a smaller portion and thereby less powerful and less worthy of worship."

i think it is important to say again that the scripture and tradition say that Gods nature is triune, three that are one, and that he is eternal and all powerful... based upon this axiomatic description (since it comes from revelation itself) we must ask questions like this "the bible says God is unified of three... how is this so, since we know of nothing that can be 3 as one?" that is why we say "look at this shamrock" because it helps to explain how this principle can be so...

but we must not confuse the shamrock for the axiom...

Dios te bendiga

[Jayda]

hola again...

for muslims, in islam, if it is so that you believe God can be everywhere (in time and place) at once, how do you believe it is possible if he is so monolithically human in conception? if i am here and in another place... clearly there are two of me, i cannot be unified with something a great distance away...

how do muslims explain this? what does God look like in islam...

Dios te bendiga

[Fishman]

hola again...

for muslims, in islam, if it is so that you believe God can be everywhere (in time and place) at once, how do you believe it is possible if he is so monolithically human in conception? if i am here and in another place... clearly there are two of me, i cannot be unified with something a great distance away...

how do muslims explain this? what does God look like in islam...

Dios te bendiga

:sl:
Muslims believe God is above his creation, in the Heaven (not literally in space or the sky, but you get the idea), and do not believe that God is omnipresent.
As for your last question, Muslims do not believe that God looks like anything that he has created.
:w: