The Debt that the West owes to Islam.

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Idris

Idris

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"When we study Europe's Middle Ages, we seldom include Spain (at least not until after the "reconquest"). Our libraries abound with books on the Middle Ages, but try to find in any of them a single word about daily life and customs in Spain. It is as if later historians, in order to justify a uniquely "European history", ignored the fact that a vibrant and brilliant civilization created by "Others"—by Arabs, by Muslims, by Jews—by brown and black people—not only existed in Europe, but without whose contributions the region could not have become what it did. When we talk about "Europe's" Renassiance, we never think of its beginnings in Spain several centuries before it reached Italy. It's as if we lopped off a good 1000 years of history—or at least amputated it from Europe. Nothing could be farther from the truth."
From the introduction to A Medieval Banquet in the Alhambra Palace, Audrey Shabbas, editor, AWAIR, 1991.
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I suppose the debt that the West owes to Islam in the realm of science would be something which the present generation should be made aware of, because science is so central to life in Western society. And if people are aware of the roots of science, and the evolution of science, the scientific method, for instance, which is so central to scientific inquiry, if people become aware of this, then I think the attitude towards Islam would also change.

Your views

:w:
 
The roots of the scientific method go back to ancient Greece, but the Age of Enlightenment and the writings of Francis Bacon and Rene Descarte truly had the most impact on starting the Scientific Revolution. I'm not sure what "debt" you are referring to exactly, and it isn't specified in your post.
 
:salamext:


Akhi, we don't do any work to please anyone besides Allaah. So the reward is with Him, the All Rich, insha'Allaah. :)
 
The roots of the scientific method go back to ancient Greece, but the Age of Enlightenment and the writings of Francis Bacon and Rene Descarte truly had the most impact on starting the Scientific Revolution. I'm not sure what "debt" you are referring to exactly, and it isn't specified in your post.
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Then I say debt I don't mean money... I am sure if you read the quote at the top you will understand what I mean by "Debt". As for Francis Bacon and Rene Descarte their age was not called the Age of Enlightenment but called the age of Renaissance and if you read this quote maybe you will realize were they got their Enlightenment from.

When we talk about "Europe's" Renassiance, we never think of its beginnings in Spain several centuries before it reached Italy.
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Idris said:
Then I say debt I don't mean money... I am sure if you read the quote at the top you will understand what I mean by "Debt". As for Francis Bacon and Rene Descarte their age was not called the Age of Enlightenment but called the age of Renaissance and if you read this quote maybe you will realize were they got their Enlightenment from.
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You are correct, the Enlightenment was John Locke and Thomas Hobbes, among others. I mislabled that era.

As for your quote, I'm not sure how that backs up anything. It doesn't specify what was supposedly happening in Spain. Could you find some way to elaborate on what contribution from Spain we are all supposedly overlooking?
 
A claim that some muslims occassionally make that is rubbish. The claim suggests that major sciences and maths came from muslims. This has been picked apart many times. Yes, there have been major contributions by scholars that were muslims, but no more than greeks, indians, romans, etc. Much came out of Babylon and Persia, like other regions.
I don't say this to disrespect islam, only to say that 'let's keep it honest'.
Muslim scholars played their part just like others, but the west owes islam nothing.
 
Muslim Spain gathered and preserved the intellectual content of ancient Greek and Roman civilization, it also interpreted and expanded upon that civilization, and made a vital contribution of its own in so many fields of human endeavour. Muslims do not deny contributions of other civilizations.
 
The only "debt" I think the West owes Islam is the preservation of Greek and Roman writings. That was indeed a good thing, and without that alot of ancient philosophy and worldview would have been lost forever.
 
Tayyaba said:
Muslim Spain gathered and preserved the intellectual content of ancient Greek and Roman civilization, it also interpreted and expanded upon that civilization, and made a vital contribution of its own in so many fields of human endeavour.
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Very true.

Muslims do not deny contributions of other civilizations.
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Some do. Some claim that muslims contributed a majority of this content. Simply not true. A large amount yes, but certainly not anything like a majority.
 
Keltoi said:
The only "debt" I think the West owes Islam is the preservation of Greek and Roman writings. That was indeed a good thing, and without that alot of ancient philosophy and worldview would have been lost forever.
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That "only" debt isn't just a small one either. It opened ways for many things. And some people who got credit for things, Muslims had done so many years before.


Many works of Muslims were translated into other languages. Many Muslim names were latinized as well. Ever heard of Avicenna, Achernar, Acrab?
Do you know where Algebra is derived from? From Al Jabr. There are many things that people fail to see. As much as people think nothing is owed, that is truly rubbish. We are taught that in the 17th century, the pendulum was developed by Galileo during his teenage years. He noticed a chandelier swaying as it was being blown by the wind. As a result, he went home and invented the pendulum. The pendulum was discovered by Ibn Yunus al-Masri during the 10th century, who was the first to study and document its oscillatory motion. Its value for use in clocks was introduced by Muslim physicists during the 15th century.

I don't want to start an argument. But before anyones decides to criticise without proper research, it's better not to say anything.


Peace :)
 
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I think the biggest debt the west owes Islam is Muslims immigrating there and spreading Islam, spreading the world of Allah SWT is far better for mankind than to be caught up in scientific ideals with no limits and the fundamental belief of Darwin's theory on the origin of life.
 
Tayyaba said:
Do you know where Algebra is derived from? From Al Jabr.
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It is true that the word 'algebra' comes from arabic 'al jabr', but muslims did not invent algebra. Algebra is a collection of thoughts contributed to by many.
Algebra was contributed greatly to by the egyptians, and the babylonians. Both have algebraic roots going back as far as 1800 BC. Note that niether followed islam this early as it had not yet been founded. They were still worshipping pagan gods (moon, sun, etc.).
The egyptians did not use symbols, it was all verbal. The greatest improvements and advancements were by the hindus starting in about 800 BC.
Centuries later, in the time of Mohummad, the muslims invaded India. During this time they improved on the Hindu algebra. Interestingly enough though, they took a step backwards, and rejected negative numbers in spite of having learned of them from the Hindus.
 
NobleMuslimUK said:
I think the biggest debt the west owes Islam is Muslims immigrating there and spreading Islam, spreading the world of Allah SWT is far better for mankind than to be caught up in scientific ideals with no limits and the fundamental belief of Darwin's theory on the origin of life.
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It's a nice opinion, but no thanks.:thankyou:
 
Idris said:
:sl:



I suppose the debt that the West owes to Islam in the realm of science would be something which the present generation should be made aware of, because science is so central to life in Western society. And if people are aware of the roots of science, and the evolution of science, the scientific method, for instance, which is so central to scientific inquiry, if people become aware of this, then I think the attitude towards Islam would also change.

Your views

:w:
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in fact you are right but this recognition would have made islaam more powerful and that is something not wanted though now
 
NobleMuslimUK said:
I think the biggest debt the west owes Islam is Muslims immigrating there and spreading Islam, spreading the world of Allah SWT is far better for mankind than to be caught up in scientific ideals with no limits and the fundamental belief of Darwin's theory on the origin of life.
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That would be too much of a debt. No thanks.
 
Silent Observer and the other nonMuslim poster,

If i'm not mistaken most scholars are in agreement that Muslim ruled Spain provided the spark that eventually led to the enlightenment. One can deduce from this that if Muslims had never conquered Spain then Europe would have lingered in the dark ages for quite a bit longer. If this had not happened, ofcourse your living standards today would be very different and probably far worse than it is now. So you can say that you do owe Muslim civilization a debt of gratitude.

And for our nonMuslim brothers that enjoy the Classics, you would have been ignorant of Plato, Aristotle, and Socrates had it not been for the great acheivements of Muslim scholars. Again i would say gratitude is in order.

peace be to you
 
Jibril said:
Silent Observer and the other nonMuslim poster,

If i'm not mistaken most scholars are in agreement that Muslim ruled Spain provided the spark that eventually led to the enlightenment. One can deduce from this that if Muslims had never conquered Spain then Europe would have lingered in the dark ages for quite a bit longer. If this had not happened, ofcourse your living standards today would be very different and probably far worse than it is now. So you can say that you do owe Muslim civilization a debt of gratitude.

And for our nonMuslim brothers that enjoy the Classics, you would have been ignorant of Plato, Aristotle, and Socrates had it not been for the great acheivements of Muslim scholars. Again i would say gratitude is in order.

peace be to you
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I agree about the ancient writings being preserved. However, I do not belive that the "West" would have stayed in the Dark Ages if not for some supposed "spark" in Spain. What changed in the West was the intellectual approach to classic philosophy and classical knowledge. During the Dark and Middle Ages, Western thinkers always looked to Aristotle and Plato as the end all of knowledge, always looking backwards for enlightenment. This changed as intellectuals began to think forward and concentrated on finding a new way of thinking. This had little to nothing to do with Spain, and more on the scientific progress found with Sir Isaac Newton and similar figures.

Not saying Muslims didn't contribute, but twisting history to make it seem the West owes Muslims for its accomplishments is naive, and bordering on ludicrous IMO.
 
Its not twisting though because it is true. You yourself admitted it. The Greeks were more theoretical in a lot of the things they did. Not saying they didn't contribute. Alot of civilizations did. I mean we all have a mind of our own. But you can never deny what's true.

Peace:)
 

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