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silat
02-10-2007, 08:11 AM
Hello all,

I currently belong to a small group of friends. We discuss many issues within our group.
We have been discussing Islam. I do not wish to offend I truely want to learn.
One of the people in our group has posted the following during our long running discussion:

>>>The threat to us is a specific ideology that is inimical to the Western Enlightenment and that has three elements:

Rejection of modernity and the separation of Mosque and state.
An all encompassing scope that makes it MORE than a religion. Besides being a religion, it is a culture and a political philosophy.
It has never had its own Enlightenment, which means it rejects tolerance of any other religion, culture, and/or political philosophy.


There are no practicing Moslems who do not accept Islam as a religion, a culture (Arabic), and a political philosophy (religious fascism). NONE! If you knew any Moslems to ask about this, they would tell you this personally.>>>>

Could you please respond to this.

Thanks for your time.
Reply

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Woodrow
02-10-2007, 09:22 AM
For beginers I am a Texas Cowboy with a Yankee background. I doubt very much if anyone would think I am part of the Arbic culture. In fact over 85% of the worlds Muslims are not Arabic.

Political philosophy? Well on my voter registration card I'm listed as an Independant. I usualy vote Democrat. We have no problem living in any country, as long as the laws do not intefer with the practise of Islam. Yes, a Muslim would prefer to live under Shariah law. But, there is not a single country in the world that has true Shariah law at this time.

As far as rejecting modernity. I am a retired psychologist. I probably have rejected modernity, but because I am an old fogey, not because I am Muslim.

If you read these threads You will see that many of the members are College Students with very high aspirations.
Reply

snakelegs
02-10-2007, 09:41 AM
[MOUSE]welcome to the forum![/MOUSE]
Reply

silat
02-10-2007, 09:42 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
For beginers I am a Texas Cowboy with a Yankee background. I doubt very much if anyone would think I am part of the Arbic culture. In fact over 85% of the worlds Muslims are not Arabic.

Political philosophy? Well on my voter registration card I'm listed as an Independant. I usualy vote Democrat. We have no problem living in any country, as long as the laws do not intefer with the practise of Islam. Yes, a Muslim would prefer to live under Shariah law. But, there is not a single country in the world that has true Shariah law at this time.

As far as rejecting modernity. I am a retired psychologist. I probably have rejected modernity, but because I am an old fogey, not because I am Muslim.

If you read these threads You will see that many of the members are College Students with very high aspirations.

Thanks for the reply but I wanted much more. Do Muslims want this country to be under Sharia law?
If so how does that work with our (USA) brand of law?

We currently have a choice that is not dictated by Sharia Law but you may follow Sharia in your personal life.
Do Muslims want to change that? Do Muslims want religious police as in SA on the streets of the USA?
I think my first post is pretty explicit in the answers I need.

Are there middle eastern Muslims on this forum?
Reply

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Woodrow
02-10-2007, 09:56 AM
Thanks for the reply but I wanted much more.
Do Muslims want this country to be under Sharia law?
Yes, that would be our preference. But, also when we are in a none Sharia country we are obligated to either follow the laws of the land or leave it. It it is that we can not practice Islam we are to leave if at all possible.
If so how does that work with our (USA) brand of law?
I would say that for the 10 million Muslims currently living in the USA we have not had any major problems

We currently have a choice that is not dictated by Sharia Law but you may follow Sharia in your personal life.
That is true, and that is why we do not feel forced to leave.


Do Muslims want to change that? Do Muslims want religious police as in SA on the streets of the USA?
That would never be a possibility unless the country were predominatly Muslim. We would like to see that happen. But, only if it is the result of free choice and not from force.
I think my first post is pretty explicit in the answers I need.
Are there middle eastern Muslims on this forum?
Very few, It is rare you will find a Muslim from the Mid-east. The majority of the Members are life long Muslims who were born Muslim and have always practiced Islam. But, there are only a few from the mideast. As I said Earlier. That is a misconception, over 85% of the world's Muslims are not Arabic. The Majority would be classified as oriental as the country with the Largest Muslim Population is Indonesia.
Reply

Woodrow
02-10-2007, 10:05 AM
I should have added Saudi Arabia is not under Sharia Law. It is essentialy a kingdom and is predominatly under the law of men.

In my personal opinion the Country that is coming closest to Sharia Law is Malaysia.
Reply

Zulkiflim
02-10-2007, 10:06 AM
Originally Posted by silat
Hello all,

I currently belong to a small group of friends. We discuss many issues within our group.
We have been discussing Islam. I do not wish to offend I truely want to learn.
One of the people in our group has posted the following during our long running discussion:

>>>The threat to us is a specific ideology that is inimical to the Western Enlightenment and that has three elements:

Rejection of modernity

[PIE]You did know that most Middle east coutnries are very IT orientated?
And muslim are commanded to seek knowledge and learn...[/PIE]

and the separation of Mosque and state.

[PIE]Nope,If you are in a Islmic country then there is no seperation,The Propeht Muhammad saw was the leader of the Islmaic world as well as the ruler.
[/PIE]

An all encompassing scope that makes it MORE than a religion.

[PIE]Islam is life,it has law for every facet and level of life.[/PIE]

Besides being a religion, it is a culture and a political philosophy.

[PIE]My culture is not arabic,i am a mix,my mother is chinese,my fahter is malay/indian,i follow my own culture no arabic.
I wonder would you call eating MCDONALDS/Steak/ a culture?LOLOL
Then i am a westerner too..

Political Philosphy??
simple..Islma is peace,aggresion is allowed only in defence but even then forgiveness is better if you fear Allah.
But we are allowed to fight as they fight you.



[/PIE]
It has never had its own Enlightenment, which means it rejects tolerance of any other religion, culture, and/or political philosophy.

[PIE]Actually no,Islam does not reject it,i suppose it may surprise you but in the time of the Propeht,there were Judaist and Chrisitan and pagan all around him...

[/PIE]


There are no practicing Moslems who do not accept Islam as a religion[PIE]slam is a religion..LOL[/PIE], a culture (Arabic)[PIE]**** do i have to be an arab to be a muslim,,,can anyone tell me how to learn the arabic culture,ride a camel,and so on..LOL[/PIE], and a political philosophy (religious fascism). NONE! If you knew any Moslems to ask about this, they would tell you this personally.>>>>

Could you please respond to this.

Thanks for your time.

salaam

read my reply in the pie..
Reply

silat
02-10-2007, 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Yes, that would be our preference. But, also when we are in a none Sharia country we are obligated to either follow the laws of the land or leave it. It it is that we can not practice Islam we are to leave if at all possible.


I would say that for the 10 million Muslims currently living in the USA we have not had any major problems



That is true, and that is why we do not feel forced to leave.




That would never be a possibility unless the country were predominatly Muslim. We would like to see that happen. But, only if it is the result of free choice and not from force.



Very few, It is rare you will find a Muslim from the Mid-east. The majority of the Members are life long Muslims who were born Muslim and have always practiced Islam. But, there are only a few from the mideast. As I said Earlier. That is a misconception, over 85% of the world's Muslims are not Arabic. The Majority would be classified as oriental as the country with the Largest Muslim Population is Indonesia.


You say that you would like to see the US under Sharia law.
Does this mean that you dont agree with the seperation of church and state? If this is true then does it mean you would throw out the constitution as it is currently written? Is this the way of the true Muslim?

Peace
Reply

Woodrow
02-10-2007, 10:14 PM
Originally Posted by silat
You say that you would like to see the US under Sharia law.
Does this mean that you dont agree with the seperation of church and state? If this is true then does it mean you would throw out the constitution as it is currently written? Is this the way of the true Muslim?

Peace
I am saying yes if we were a Muslim Majority and this was a Muslim country. But, we are not a Muslim Country. Sharia law can not be implemented fully unless every inhabitant of the country is a good practicing Muslim. In that event there would be absolutly no opposistion to sharia law.

You can not implement Sharia law in a Non-Islamic country.

That is a very moot question, as I do not foresee every resident in the USA embracing Islam during my life time. So, for here in the USA as the population stands the US constitution is the only workable government.
Reply

Woodrow
02-10-2007, 10:33 PM
To put it in perspective if you were living in a Sharia Country, would you not desire for the country to be Democratic, would you not be advocating for democracy?


Does that mean you would use illegal or violent means to achieve Democracy? Does that mean you are a radical? Would that make you a danger to the people around you?
Reply

silat
02-11-2007, 12:01 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
To put it in perspective if you were living in a Sharia Country, would you not desire for the country to be Democratic, would you not be advocating for democracy?


Does that mean you would use illegal or violent means to achieve Democracy? Does that mean you are a radical? Would that make you a danger to the people around you?
I personally dont advocate violence. But I asked you first:)
Do you agree with the seperation of Church and state?
Reply

silat
02-11-2007, 12:08 AM
Originally Posted by silat
I personally dont advocate violence. But I asked you first:)
Do you agree with the seperation of Church and state?
I need to add that I see a complete difference in ones personal faith and a free society.
Reply

Woodrow
02-11-2007, 12:29 AM
For the US it is a necessity. I would not be able to practice as a Muslim if there was not seperation of Church and State.

Keep in mind that for a true shariah state to exist all of the people in it would be Muslim, so there would be no reason for seperation of Church and State.
Reply

silat
02-11-2007, 09:23 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
For the US it is a necessity. I would not be able to practice as a Muslim if there was not seperation of Church and State.

Keep in mind that for a true shariah state to exist all of the people in it would be Muslim, so there would be no reason for seperation of Church and State.

So Islam has no intention of having seperation of church and state? This is a simple yes or no. Islam wants religion to rule.That is their ultimate aim?

Are there muslims who do want seperation of Church and State?
Reply

Malaikah
02-11-2007, 10:51 AM
There can be no separate of 'Church' and state in Islam, because Islam itself already has a government system which was created by God himself, it is a perfect and complete way of life.

Why should we reject the perfect laws of God and create our own cheap laws?

Also, non-Muslims do have their rights under Islamic law, so it isn't as if you will be discriminated against.
Reply

Muslim Knight
02-11-2007, 11:26 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
In my personal opinion the Country that is coming closest to Sharia Law is Malaysia.
By virtue (or lack thereof) of the Malaysian Federal Constitution inspired by the British & Indian constitutions, Shariah laws have been reduced to legal issues pertaining to Muslim family inheritance, marriage and divorce, and Muslim child custody. Hudud laws (jinayat i.e. pertaining to criminal laws) are not fully implemented; cases like zina (fornication) or hirabah (armed robbery) are not dealt with punishments as prescribed in the Quran & Sunnah. Khalwat (close proximity between unmarried couples) convictions are only penalized with monetary fines.

Even as Saudi Arabia is a kingdom and not a full Islamic state, it still punishes convicted thieves with hadd punishment.
Reply

root
02-12-2007, 06:48 PM
Interesting to note that this world does not include a single country that is an islamic state.....

I wonder why? :okay:
Reply

Woodrow
02-12-2007, 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by root
Interesting to note that this world does not include a single country that is an islamic state.....

I wonder why? :okay:
This was foretold, it is nothing we did not know would happen. Off hand I can not think of the specific hadith, but there are a few hadith that do make mention of the coming of this time.

It is all in accordance with the plans of Allah(swt) and Allah(swt) is the best of planners.
Reply

Uther Pendragon
02-12-2007, 11:33 PM
Hello:

First, allow me to introduce myself. My screen name is Uther Pendragon. I am the man who asked Mr. Silat the questions some of which he has posed to you. The discussion in our own email discussion group began with my somewhat hyperbolic assertion that there is no such thing as "moderate" Islam. This, of course, necessitated rather lengthy discussions back and forth about what we meant by "moderate", is Islam more than a religion, how tolerant is Islam toward the ideas and concepts of the European Enlightenment, etc. We have been at this issue for many months now, sometimes with the discussion becoming very heated.

Almost all of us in the email discussion group are liberals with a philosophy of live and let live. However, some of us are fairly knowledgeable about philosphy, comparitive religion, and consider outselves to be highly critical thinkers.

My assertion to our email group is that, basically for inate philosophical reasons, American democracy and Islam as it is practiced by most Moslems in the world are fairly incompatible and are likely to remain so. The primary reason for this is the American Constitutional requirement for separation of mosque or church and state. You see, the ancestors of the American Founding Fathers were European. And for over 900 years Europe saw one murderous religious war after another. Different philosphers of liberty, men whom we revere, like John Locke, the Baron de Montesquieu (the originator of the idea of checks and balances and tri-partitie government) suggested that it might be worthwhile and avoid the bloody religious warfare if we simply separated church and government. During the 18th century the U.S. went through a rather lengthy period of disestablishment of our privileged church institutions. No religious body could identify itself as the favored of the state because of the power of the state. Each man was to be governed by the lights of his own inspiration. For us this has worked. As hard as we fight each other as Republicans and Democrats and third parties, we have managed to avoid the extreme sectarian violence that we now see happening in Iraq. The irony is that the sectarian violence now happening in Iraq is happening between the two major factions of ONE RELIGION.

So, suffice it to say that, while many of us American Enlightenment buffs believe that our "system of government" is not perfect as Islam claims to be, it does work for us and it does keep the various contending factions from resorting to bloodshed. It would seem to us from what we see now happening in Iraq and other areas of the Middle East, that Islam is somewhat imperfect in that it does not seem to have yet discovered how to avoid the bloody sectarian violence that we whose ancestors were European once fell victim to.

It does seem to many of us that all too many Moslems, even those who live here in our country, simply do not know our history, and do not understand our reason for embracing the genius of the Enlightenment American Founding Fathers as we do.

We believe in freedom and democracy. We believe that for democracy to survive its citizens must be educated about how the Enlightenment came about and what it means for our form of government. The more liberal among us resist the temptation to lecture others about what form of government they have or wish to implement. And we do realize that our form of Jeffersonian democracy is not for everyone.

But, if you live here and benefit from the Pax Americana, we expect you to understand and practice our Enlightenment Ideals even if you do not believe in them. It is how we keep from killing one another.

P.S. According to recent magazine articles that I've read, Malaysia maintains a dual system of justice: one set of Sharia courts for Moslems, one set for non-Moslems. The best that we can figure, this pleases neither Moslems nor non-Moslems. To paraphrase a Confucian proverb, "Man who have two watches never really know what time it is." A country with two separate systems of justice, one for the established religion and one for everyone else, does not really practice justice at all.

P.S. By the way, according to this Islamic website http://www.islam101.com/history/population2_usa.html the number of Moslems in the U.S. is just over 5 million, not the 10 million stated by someone else here. Various articles on Wikipedia place the estimate of the number of Moslems in the U.S. at around 3 million.

-Uther Pendragon
Reply

Goku
02-13-2007, 12:08 AM
Originally Posted by Uther Pendragon
Hello:

First, allow me to introduce myself. My screen name is Uther Pendragon. I am the man who asked Mr. Silat the questions some of which he has posed to you. The discussion in our own email discussion group began with my somewhat hyperbolic assertion that there is no such thing as "moderate" Islam. This, of course, necessitated rather lengthy discussions back and forth about what we meant by "moderate", is Islam more than a religion, how tolerant is Islam toward the ideas and concepts of the European Enlightenment, etc. We have been at this issue for many months now, sometimes with the discussion becoming very heated.

Almost all of us in the email discussion group are liberals with a philosophy of live and let live. However, some of us are fairly knowledgeable about philosphy, comparitive religion, and consider outselves to be highly critical thinkers.

My assertion to our email group is that, basically for inate philosophical reasons, American democracy and Islam as it is practiced by most Moslems in the world are fairly incompatible and are likely to remain so. The primary reason for this is the American Constitutional requirement for separation of mosque or church and state. You see, the ancestors of the American Founding Fathers were European. And for over 900 years Europe saw one murderous religious war after another. Different philosphers of liberty, men whom we revere, like John Locke, the Baron de Montesquieu (the originator of the idea of checks and balances and tri-partitie government) suggested that it might be worthwhile and avoid the bloody religious warfare if we simply separated church and government. During the 18th century the U.S. went through a rather lengthy period of disestablishment of our privileged church institutions. No religious body could identify itself as the favored of the state because of the power of the state. Each man was to be governed by the lights of his own inspiration. For us this has worked. As hard as we fight each other as Republicans and Democrats and third parties, we have managed to avoid the extreme sectarian violence that we now see happening in Iraq. The irony is that the sectarian violence now happening in Iraq is happening between the two major factions of ONE RELIGION.

So, suffice it to say that, while many of us American Enlightenment buffs believe that our "system of government" is not perfect as Islam claims to be, it does work for us and it does keep the various contending factions from resorting to bloodshed. It would seem to us from what we see now happening in Iraq and other areas of the Middle East, that Islam is somewhat imperfect in that it does not seem to have yet discovered how to avoid the bloody sectarian violence that we whose ancestors were European once fell victim to.

It does seem to many of us that all too many Moslems, even those who live here in our country, simply do not know our history, and do not understand our reason for embracing the genius of the Enlightenment American Founding Fathers as we do.

We believe in freedom and democracy. We believe that for democracy to survive its citizens must be educated about how the Enlightenment came about and what it means for our form of government. The more liberal among us resist the temptation to lecture others about what form of government they have or wish to implement. And we do realize that our form of Jeffersonian democracy is not for everyone.

But, if you live here and benefit from the Pax Americana, we expect you to understand and practice our Enlightenment Ideals even if you do not believe in them. It is how we keep from killing one another.

P.S. According to recent magazine articles that I've read, Malaysia maintains a dual system of justice: one set of Sharia courts for Moslems, one set for non-Moslems. The best that we can figure, this pleases neither Moslems nor non-Moslems. To paraphrase a Confucian proverb, "Man who have two watches never really know what time it is." A country with two separate systems of justice, one for the established religion and one for everyone else, does not really practice justice at all.

P.S. By the way, according to this Islamic website http://www.islam101.com/history/population2_usa.html the number of Moslems in the U.S. is just over 5 million, not the 10 million stated by someone else here. Various articles on Wikipedia place the estimate of the number of Moslems in the U.S. at around 3 million.

-Uther Pendragon
Hello Uther Pendragon, welcome to the forum.

Thank you for your lengthy post. Muslims do understand democracy, however some believe the Islamic system of government is better suited, but if the country is majority Muslim and if its voted in by majority. We do believe that Islamic Shariah may not work for the US, and we are obliged under Islam to respect the host country's laws and abide by them if they do not hinder our religion. In that sense, we dont have a problem with Western democrasy.

The Iraq issue cannot be reflected of Islam because Islam strictly forbids the killings of innocents. Islam prohibits the killing of fellow Muslims and discourages creating sects. Whats happening in Iraq is UnIslamic. We as humans are imperfect, as you already mentioned, Europe went through its phase of bloody civil wars, this is not a Muslim issue.

Yourself and your friend Silat, feel free to continue participating in discussions, learning can only help. Regards.
Reply

Uther Pendragon
02-13-2007, 02:16 AM
Goku:

Thank you for that warm welcome. Although there are only myself and Brother Silat posting right now, there are several more "lurkers" watching the discussion from our email discussion group. After several months of arguing these issues we decided that it might be best if we talked to Moslems directly. I had a couple of professors and friends who were Moslem during my graduate work in education. But our email group as a whole has no Moslem members and therefore no one who could speak authoritatively and authentically to our questions. I had asked many of these questions to several of my Moslem acquaintences and I was shocked and dismayed by some of the answers that I received. I was especially dismayed by how seemingly readily native born American Moslems were to give up American style Jeffersonian Democracy for Sharia dispite the fact that America is a melting pot that welcomes all religions asking only respect for others and their statements of faith.

I have two immediate questions (somewhat stemming from what has come before in the discussion).

1. Do YOU read the Quran in Arabic? I've just spent several days following a discussion on Beliefnet.com wherein several Moslems insisted that, for one to understand the Quran accurately and properly, one must read it in Arabic. Apparently many people in many Islamic countries believe this to be true because the teaching of Arabic in non-Arab countries appears to be a booming business, if for no other reason than to prepare disciples for the Hajj.

2. Certainly you don't mean to say that Iraq is not a "Moslem" country? You say that the Quran discourages the creation of sects, but Mohammed had not been long departed from the earth before a schism had broken out within Islam over the lineage of Islamic leaders. Are the Sunni and Shiite of Iraq not Moslems? Who within Islam speaks with the authority to say "You are Moslem" and "You are NOT Moslem"?

As an aside, I have long maintained that American Moslems are a different type of animal altogether from their Moslem brethren in predominantly Moslem countries. American Moslems, especially those born here, often take the Pax Americana for granted, having never lived where that same peace was not necessarily guaranteed.
Reply

Malaikah
02-13-2007, 02:25 AM
Originally Posted by Uther Pendragon
1. Do YOU read the Quran in Arabic? I've just spent several days following a discussion on Beliefnet.com wherein several Moslems insisted that, for one to understand the Quran accurately and properly, one must read it in Arabic. Apparently many people in many Islamic countries believe this to be true because the teaching of Arabic in non-Arab countries appears to be a booming business, if for no other reason than to prepare disciples for the Hajj.
Hi.

The Quran itself is not the Quran if it is not in Arabic. Any translation is not the Quran, it is just a translation of the Quran.

There is nothing wrong with reading the Quran in another language, but what you need to realise is that a translation can only translate the meaning of the Quran, not the Quran itself.

This is because the Quran was the miracle given to Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), and part of it's miracle is in it's meaning, other parts is in the sentence structure. But you can't translate a sentence structure can you? It is something unique to the the language. And that structure actually adds to the meaning. Similarly, there are many thing other things that can not be translated, such as the rhyme, which actually adds to the meaning of the text.

For example, imagine a really top class poem written in English. It's excellence would come from things such as style, rhythm, etc. If you translate it, you will automatically lose things like the alliteration, assonance, rhythm, all of which contribute to making the piece special. Well the same concept can be applied to the Quran.

Hope that explains a bit. :)
Reply

Uther Pendragon
02-13-2007, 02:46 AM
My Dear Friend Malaikah:

You will excuse me for I am not a big advocate of deconstruction nor of Derrida, its principle advocate. For most of us in the Western world, for any "text", there is only its meaning. A text can only be its meaning; neither more nor less. We learn the Preamble to our country's Constitution in reverence to it. But, our Constitution is only what our Supreme Court at any point in time says that the words and the phrases of our Constitution mean.

To say that a translation can never import the precise meaning of a text is to deprive those who do not read the language of the text of the authority of the author of the original text, wouldn't you say?

Would you say that it is impossible for Westerners unschooled in Arabic to understand the Quran accurately? (You have to understand that most of us were brought up on a book originally written in Hebrew and Aramaic or Greek and then translated into 14th century Elizabethan English.)
Reply

Um_ahmad
02-13-2007, 03:35 AM
I am a muslim who is middle eastern........ :).
Reply

north_malaysian
02-13-2007, 03:45 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
In my personal opinion the Country that is coming closest to Sharia Law is Malaysia.
Not really, I think countries like Pakistan and Sudan are closer to Sharia Law than Malaysia...
Reply

north_malaysian
02-13-2007, 03:57 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
By virtue (or lack thereof) of the Malaysian Federal Constitution inspired by the British & Indian constitutions, Shariah laws have been reduced to legal issues pertaining to Muslim family inheritance, marriage and divorce, and Muslim child custody. Hudud laws (jinayat i.e. pertaining to criminal laws) are not fully implemented; cases like zina (fornication) or hirabah (armed robbery) are not dealt with punishments as prescribed in the Quran & Sunnah. Khalwat (close proximity between unmarried couples) convictions are only penalized with monetary fines.
A very good answer...

Actually, it's stated in the Malaysia's Federal Constitution that the Federal Constitution is the highest law of the land.

And our Federal Constitution was drafted by the Reid Commission consisted of:

1) Lord William Reid (Chairman - UK)
2) Sir Ivor Jennings (UK)
3) Sir William McKell (Australia)
4) Justice B. Malik (India)
5) Justice Abdul Hamid (Pakistan)

then this draft was scrutinised by "Working Committee" consisted of:

1) Malay royal ruler - 4 representatives
2) Alliance government (UMNO*, MCA*, MIC*) - 4 representatives
3) British High Commissioner
4) Chief Secretary
5) Attorney General

* UMNO - United Malays National Organisation
* MCA - Malaysian Chinese Association
* MIC - Malaysian Indian Congress

The Federal Legislative Council passed the Constitution on 15.08.1957 and Malaya gained independence on 31.08.1957.


* We gained independence peacefully from the British because our Anglophile leaders have good relationship with them. No wonder, the Indonesians accused us of being British proxy in the region :)
Reply

Uther Pendragon
02-13-2007, 04:07 AM
Originally Posted by Um_ahmad
I am a muslim who is middle eastern........ :).
Hello Um-ahmad and welcome:

I am an atheist who participates in an email discussion group. For the past several weeks we've been discussing whether Islam is incompatible with the Enlightenment ideals on which the United States is founded, specifically concepts such as the separation of mosque/church and state, the fact that Islam is a form of government as well as a culture and a philosophy, etc. We decided that we needed to talk with some actual Moslems rather than just reading encyclopedia entries. Since you are the first Middle Eastern Moslem to comment, would you like to weigh in on our questions, comments, and propositions up to this point. I only have three posts. The first was rather lengthy, explaining why we were here; the second had two specific questions; and this is the third. We would welcome what you have to say. Just as an aside, what part of the Middle East are you from? And, if you don't mind us asking, where (in what country) do you reside now?

Thank you and peace!
Reply

syilla
02-13-2007, 06:06 AM
MashaAllah nice discussion.

Unfortunately most of it have already been discussed...

Feel free to explore in LI. I think you'll be interested more in the Sharia Law. Just do the searching.

Good luck!!
Reply

Um_ahmad
02-13-2007, 02:45 PM
Well I'm going to be honust with you, I would rather not comment on this. Because I dont really have anything to say :). But i am from lebanon, and i was born and raised in the usa. I live in michigan.
Reply

Uther Pendragon
02-13-2007, 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I am saying yes if we were a Muslim Majority and this was a Muslim country. But, we are not a Muslim Country. Sharia law can not be implemented fully unless every inhabitant of the country is a good practicing Muslim. In that event there would be absolutly no opposistion to sharia law.

You can not implement Sharia law in a Non-Islamic country.

That is a very moot question, as I do not foresee every resident in the USA embracing Islam during my life time. So, for here in the USA as the population stands the US constitution is the only workable government.
So, let me ask this. What makes an Islamic Country Islamic? Does the government have to be an Islamic theocracy? Is it that a simple majority (50% + 1) are Moslem? A majority of the residents have imposed Sharia law on the minority? A minority of the residents have imposed Sharia law on the majority? Where do I go...whom do I consult to determine is a country is a "Moslem" country?

For most of us are we not usually identified with the religion of the family and the culture into which we were born? Christians (I am not a Christian) define themselves as being "born again", thereby acknowledging that no one is a "born" (first time) as a Christian. It must be an intellectual and spiritual choice. What does it mean to be "born Moslem"?
Reply

Uther Pendragon
02-13-2007, 08:21 PM
Well, let me express my deepest appreciation to those who have taken the time to attempt to answer my most ignorant questions. I am learning a great deal about the differences between American Moslems and Moslems in the rest of the world. And, there does seem to be a fairly wide divide, at least if I am to judge from the beliefs expressed.

I am also learning from the profound silence to some of my questions. This is especially true about my questions regarding the sectarian strife in Iraq as we speak. Someone told me that the behavior of the people of Iraq is very un-Islamic. But, my question was, are the Sunni and Shia of Iraq still considered by American Moslems to be be Moslem?

What about the *******st Moslems of Saudi Arabia? Do American Moslems consider them to be Moslems also?

As an aside - using the search engine of this discussion board, I am finding out many interesting things. I spent the morning reading a thread on whether the scientific theory of evolution conflicts with Islamic teaching. My opinion, thus far, is that Moslems seem to have as much difficulty with Darwin's theory of natural selection as American Christian fundamentalists do. But, I'm still reading.http://www.islamicboard.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
:smile:
Reply

Woodrow
02-13-2007, 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by Uther Pendragon
So, let me ask this. What makes an Islamic Country Islamic? Does the government have to be an Islamic theocracy? Is it that a simple majority (50% + 1) are Moslem? A majority of the residents have imposed Sharia law on the minority? A minority of the residents have imposed Sharia law on the majority? Where do I go...whom do I consult to determine is a country is a "Moslem" country?

For most of us are we not usually identified with the religion of the family and the culture into which we were born? Christians (I am not a Christian) define themselves as being "born again", thereby acknowledging that no one is a "born" (first time) as a Christian. It must be an intellectual and spiritual choice. What does it mean to be "born Moslem"?
I'll have to seperate between sharia and Muslim here. For a country to be considered Islamic the majority of the people would be people. The government would be what ever it is. The government is usually chosen by the people. the Islamic countries have vast differences, Malaysia is different than Indonesia, Indonesia is much different than Turkey, All of them are way different than Chechnya. But, they are all Islamic countries.

Sharia law, which is what is often thought of when people hear the word Islamic. Can only be applied to Muslims. There are no Sharia countries at the present time. The next time that a Sharia country can exist is when the Kalifate is established. That will be in the final days when Christ(as) returns. (My explanation is not fully complete, but I want to keep it understandable)

We believe that all people are born Muslim. It is only through life circumstances that some people are not Muslim. A person does not convert to Islam, we revert back to what we truly are. I was 65 years old before I reverted.
Reply

Woodrow
02-13-2007, 08:32 PM
For many reasons we do not permit sectarian discussions on the forum. However I understand that they do have you confused.

I am also learning from the profound silence to some of my questions. This is especially true about my questions regarding the sectarian strife in Iraq as we speak. Someone told me that the behavior of the people of Iraq is very un-Islamic. But, my question was, are the Sunni and Shia of Iraq still considered by American Moslems to be be Moslem?
There is only one Islam. None of us are Sunni or Shi'a or anything else. We are all Muslim. we do not label ourselves as anything except Muslim.

Down at the bottom to the forum pages you will find a section called sects and divisions. It is a closed section for reference only and can not be posted on. Some of your questions may be answered there.
Reply

Uther Pendragon
02-13-2007, 09:15 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I'll have to seperate between sharia and Muslim here. For a country to be considered Islamic the majority of the people would be people. The government would be what ever it is. The government is usually chosen by the people. the Islamic countries have vast differences, Malaysia is different than Indonesia, Indonesia is much different than Turkey, All of them are way different than Chechnya. But, they are all Islamic countries.

Sharia law, which is what is often thought of when people hear the word Islamic. Can only be applied to Muslims. There are no Sharia countries at the present time. The next time that a Sharia country can exist is when the Kalifate is established. That will be in the final days when Christ(as) returns. (My explanation is not fully complete, but I want to keep it understandable)

We believe that all people are born Muslim. It is only through life circumstances that some people are not Muslim. A person does not convert to Islam, we revert back to what we truly are. I was 65 years old before I reverted.
Thank you Woodrow. Your answers are a great help. Just a couple of quick questions if I man. (I'm really learning a great deal.)

1. Can you tell me more about the coming Kaliphate? Where will it be? Is it to include all of the countries of the world? Is it to be a physical place or will it be a spiritual ideal? What conditions or events are to herald the creation of THE Kaliphate? Etc.

2. What were people born before about 570 AD? (the estimated birth date of Mohammed)?

Thanks in advance.
Reply

Woodrow
02-13-2007, 09:27 PM
Originally Posted by Uther Pendragon
Thank you Woodrow. Your answers are a great help. Just a couple of quick questions if I man. (I'm really learning a great deal.)

1. Can you tell me more about the coming Kaliphate? Where will it be? Is it to include all of the countries of the world? Is it to be a physical place or will it be a spiritual ideal? What conditions or events are to herald the creation of THE Kaliphate? Etc.

2. What were people born before about 570 AD? (the estimated birth date of Mohammed)?

Thanks in advance.
I will just answer question 2 at the moment. I want to find some specific quotes before I answer question 1.

2. What were people born before about 570 AD? (the estimated birth date of Mohammed)?
Would you believe they were people? (excuse my odd humor)

We believe Adam was the first Muslim and all people after him were Muslim. we believe that the same message given to Adam(pbuh) was the same message given to all of the prophets.

The only thing that distinguishes Muhammad(PBUH) from the earlier prophets is he is the final Prophet(PBUH). What was revealed to him was what was revealed to Isa(Jesus), Moses, Abraham, all of the prophets Peace Be Upon All of Them. This is our last chance to get it right.
Reply

Woodrow
02-13-2007, 09:54 PM
I will do my best to answer the first Please excuse me if I am not clear. I have only reverted to Islam 2 years ago. My understaning is that the last Kaliphate will be established by the Mahdi, and that is who we are now waiting on.

Imam Mahdi (Descendent of Prophet Muhammad PBUH)
by Mufti A.H. Elias and Mohammad Ali ibn Zubair Ali

Who Is Imam Mahdi?

Note: Please do not confuse Imam Mahdi with Hadhrat Isa (Jesus) Alayhis Salaam. They are two different persons, and both will come during the last days. According to Hadeeth, Imam Mahdi will appear first, and Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) will appear during Imam Mahdi's lifetime. Furthermore, only Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) will be able to kill Dajjal (the "anti-Christ").

The term "MAHDI" is a title meaning "The Guided one".

Hadhrat Abdullah bin Mas'ood (R.A.) says that Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) said, "This world will not come to an end until one person from my progeny does not rule over the Arabs, and his name will be the same as my name." (Tirmidhi)

Hadhrat Ali (R.A.) narrates that Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) said, "Even if only a day remains for Qiyamah to come, yet Allah will surely send a man from my family who will fill this world with such justice and fairness, just as it initally was filled with oppression." (Abu Dawood)

His Features

Hadhrat Abu Saeed Khudri (R.A.) relates that Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) said, "Al Mahdi will be from my progeny. His forehead will be broad and his nose will be high. He will fill the world with justice and fairness at a time when the world will be filled with oppression. He will rule for seven years."

Other ahadeeth inform us that:

* He will be tall
* He will be fair complexioned
* His facial features will be similar to those of Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam)
* His character will be exactly like that of Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam)
* His father's name will be Abdullah
* His mother's name will be Aamina
* He will speak with a slight stutter and occasionally this stutter will frustrate him causing him to hit his hand upon his thigh.
* His age at the time of his emergence will be forty years
* He will receive Knowledge from Allah.

We have been given minor and major signs of the final days. The minor signs have already past.

The Minor Signs of the Last Day
by Mohammed Ali Ibn Zubair Ali

Qiyamah will come when...

Hadhrat Abu Musa Ash'ari (R.A.) narrates that Rasulallah (Sallallahu Alayhii Wassallam) said, "Qiyamah will come...

* When it will be regarded as a shame to act on Quranic injunctions.
* When untrustworthy people will be regarded as trustworthy and the trustworthy will be regarded as untrustworthy.
* When it will be hot in winter (and vice versa).
* When the length of days is stretched, i.e. a journey of a few days is covered in a matter of hours.
* When orators and lecturers lie openly.
* When people dispute over petty issues.
* When women with children come displeased on account of them bearing offspring, and barren women remain happy on account of having no responsibility of offspring.
* When oppression, jealousy, and greed become the order of the day.
* When people blatantly follow their passions and whims.
* When lies prevail over the truth.
* When violence, bloodshed and anarchy become common.
* When immorality overtakes shamelessness and is perpetrated publicly.
* When legislation matters pertaining to Deen is handed over to the worst elements of the Ummat, and if people accept them and are satisfied with their findings, then such persons will not smell the fragrance of Jannat.
* When the offspring become a cause of grief and anger (for their parents).

the major signs seem to be emerging now.


Introduction
The Mahdi

Signs that will precede him

A General Sign
The Battle in Mina
The Euphrates Will Disclose Mountain of Gold
Emergence of the Suffyani
The Emergence of Haris-Al-Harrath and Mansur
A Star
A Voice
The Emergence
The Earth
An Army

The Signs of Imaam Mahdi
His Emergence and the people's Bayat
The First Battle
The Great War
Conquest of Constantinople
Blessing at the time of Imaam Mahdi
His Reign as Caliph

Dajjal

Tamim Dari and Dajjal
Signs that will precede him

The coming of Imaam Mahdi
The Great Famine
Dajjal's parents
General signs that will precede Dajjal

Signs in the Dajjal
Physical description
Dajjal's emergence
Dajjal's Turmoil

Dajjal's Deception
Believers in Allah will face hardship
The Earth will disclose treasure at his command
Dajjal faces Opposition
Dajjal's Trickery
Dajjal's Greed
Dajjal's Lures the Women

Safe Haven of Makkah and Madinah
Death
Protection from Dajjal

Reciting of Surah - Kahf
Seeking refuge in Allah
Staying miles apart
Safe Haven of Makkah and Madinah
Knowledge of Allah's Attributes

Return of Prophet Isa (Jesus)Peace be upon him

Brief History of Prophet Isa (Jesus) Peace be upon him
Prophet Isa's (Jesus) Peace be upon him Task
Prophet Jesus' (as) descent and the killing of Dajjal
The Hikma (wisdom) in the Descension of Prophet JesusPeace be upon him
The Prophet Jesus Peace be upon him and the Ya'juj Ma'juj
Prophet Jesus Peace be upon him as the ruler
Blessings at the time of Prophet Jesus Peace be upon him
Marriage and death
Was Mirza Ghulam the Promised Messiah?

Ya'juj Ma'juj (Gog and Magog)

Ya'juj Ma'juj and Zulqarnain
The Wall of Zulqarnain
Trying to break free
Myths
Physical appearance of Ya'juj and Ma'juj
Emergence of Ya'juj and Ma'juj before Qiyamah

Landslides

The Smoke
Ibn Masood's opinion

Rising of the sun from the west

Where the sun goes
Worshippers during the night will remain
Everyone will bring faith in seeing the sign
Door of repentance closed

The Beast

Task
Place of emergence
Nature of the Beast
Camel
Extraordinary animal
Snake

The Fire
For an in depth study of the major signs check here:

http://www.inter-islam.org/faith/Majorsigns.html
Reply

Woodrow
02-13-2007, 10:19 PM
For more information one of the Administartors Brother Ansar Al"adl is much more knowledgable then I am. On his posts he lists a series of very helpful links for those wishing to learn more about Islam. Here is a link to one of his post. You may find his links helpful.

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post649951


If you have not done so you may want to check out our discover Islam section.

We are always pleased to answer questions. People who are willing to listen and discuss peacefully are always welcome even if we do not agree.
Reply

north_malaysian
02-14-2007, 04:36 AM
while all of us Muslims do believe the second coming of Jesus and the Mahdi... it should be known that "Waiting for these two figures" is not a pillar of Islam. It's not a duty for us to wait for Mahdi, we have a larger duty.. to serve God as his faithful servants...
Reply

Woodrow
02-14-2007, 05:26 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
while all of us Muslims do believe the second coming of Jesus and the Mahdi... it should be known that "Waiting for these two figures" is not a pillar of Islam. It's not a duty for us to wait for Mahdi, we have a larger duty.. to serve God as his faithful servants...
That is very true. We do not know if any of us will be alive at the time of the final days, but we do know that one day we are going to die and we know we will live to that event and will not escape it. Our heart beat at this very moment, could be our last heart beat. We do not have the luxury of waiting for a specific event before we decide to serve Allah(swt)
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