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IzakHalevas
02-11-2007, 03:56 PM
My question is, can a women be an Imam, if not, why, is it in the Quran?
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Woodrow
02-11-2007, 05:26 PM
Right or wrong, it is being done in Morocco.

http://www.lailalalami.com/blog/archives/004188.html
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zaki.aumeerudy
02-11-2007, 07:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
My question is, can a women be an Imam, if not, why, is it in the Quran?
this has never existed during the lifetime of the propeht ,the sahabah,the tabein ,the tabe tabein ,neither heard in mazhab abu hanifa ,imam maalik ,imam shafei ,imam ibn hanbal, ibn taimiyyah ,ibn qayyim .it has no source in the quran or sunnah
the word imam is itself singular and is applied two only two prophets in the quran
who should direct the community a man or a woman
in the quran for various witnesses one man may be a witness if not two women not one ,woman are weak by nature and the quran saya that men has a great resposibilty over woman .
since then if man are resposible for woman than it shows clearly that man should lead
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YusufNoor
02-11-2007, 07:30 PM
A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Assalamu 'alaykum,

a woman can lead women in prayers but a woman can't/shouldn't be an imam or imamma, if you like. if a woman was an imamma, then everyone would know when her period is because she would be absent for that. not the kind of thing you want the whole ummah to know about...

:w:
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Umar001
02-11-2007, 07:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by zaki.aumeerudy
in the quran for various witnesses one man may be a witness if not two women not one
What are you speaking of? The witness accounts have nothing to do with this. Because there are areas where a woman's witness is the same as a mans!!
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chacha_jalebi
02-11-2007, 07:42 PM
salaam

a woman can lead the womens in salaah, but she cant lead the men, theres a hadiths in ibn majah .....

"A woman may not lead a man in Prayer, nor may a Bedouin lead a believer of the Muhajirun or a corrupt person lead a committed Muslim in Prayer."



also another hadiths in muslim, is .. " the best rows for the men in salah are the 1st ones and worst ones are the last, and the best rows for the women are the last and worst are teh first"

theres a reason for not lettin women lead the salah and manz is gona jus copy good old uncle zakir naiks :p opinions :D he said that men wouldnt concentrate on the salah and dey wud concentrate more on the woman, who leads the salah :p and that is most probably true, so its allowed for them to lead women but not men, and this is for their own protection:D
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ella
02-11-2007, 08:22 PM
Firstly what do you think an imam’s basic job is?
From what I know the imam leads the community in prayers, and gives talks (khtabs)

You would like proof from the Quran or sunnah…………..well in Quran I cannot find anything but I certainly can provide you evidence form the sunnah.


The ijma is that women are not allowed to lead men in prayer and if she does then the prayer is nullified. Have there been any reports that women lead men at the time of the Mohamed? No, there has not. Your prophet never said to a woman or chose a woman to lead Prayers in the mosque during the whole 16 years between the prescription of Prayer in Makkah and his death in Madinah.

The best of the men's prayer-rows is the first and the worst the last, while the best of the women's prayer-rows is the last and the worst is the first."

“No nation shall succeed that is led by a woman." Al-Bukhari and Muslim from Abu Bakrah

Hmmm an imam guides the community, from this hadith it’s clear woman in Islam are not to be in charge of men!………..so can they be leading men in prayer? Also you simply asked why woman cannot be imams, what do you mean by this? You have to be specific, a woman can be a scholar and an imam………………but she is to only lead woman in prayers!

A small number of scholars allow women to lead men who are her maharam, if she is the most learned amongst them and in the confines of her home as Umm Waraqah was ordered to do so and so was Aisha. Umm Waraqah lead only the members of her household in Prayer, she was not given an order to lead the Prayer in the mosque.

It is clearly not allowed from the Sunnah for a Woman to lead mixed prayer, As for women leading women, imam shaf'i, imam hanafi and imam hanbal allow a woman to be imam to other women.

Now a recent controversy over this, you may have heard of it or not.

Amina Wadud
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Amina Wadud is an Associate Professor of Islamic Studies at Virginia Commonwealth University (VCU) in Richmond, Virginia, having joined that university after a stint as Assistant Professor at the International Islamic University in Malaysia, a post she had held since 1989. Wadud's reseach specialities include Gender and Qur'anic Studies. She wrote a landmark book on the subject, Qur'an and Woman: Rereading the Sacred Text from a Woman's Perspective. The first edition of the book, published by Sisters in Islam in Malaysia continues to be used all over the world as a basic text for activists and academics alike. She received her Ph.D. from the University of Michigan, and, during graduate school, she studied Arabic in Egypt at the American University in Cairo, Cairo University, and Al-Azhar University. After publishing her first book, she spoke at universities and various other gatherings throughout the United States and abroad, for example, in Jordan, South and Southern Africa, Nigeria, Kenya, Pakistan, Indonesia, Canada, Norway, Netherlands, Sarajevo, Spain, and Malaysia.


Friday Prayer
Wadud was the cause of controversy in March 2005 when she led a Friday prayer for a group of Muslims in New York City, a job usually reserved for men. Wadud was the subject of much debate and Muslim juristic discourse after leading a Friday prayer congregation of over 100 men and women in the Episcopal cathedral of St. John the Divine in New York on March 18, 2005, breaking with the tradition of having only male imams. Three mosques had refused to host the service, while an art gallery was persuaded through a bomb threat to refuse the service as well. (The event was not the first time in the history of Islam that a woman had led the Friday prayer. See Women as imams for a discussion of the issue.)

In August 1994, Wadud delivered a Friday khutbah (sermon) on "Islam as Engaged Surrender" at the Claremont Main Road Mosque in Cape Town, South Africa. At the time, this too was largely unheard of in the Muslim world. As a result, there were attempts in Virginia by some Muslims to have her removed from her position at Virginia Commonwealth University.

There has been much objection and some support from Muslims around the world to Wadud's imamate. She has also reportedly been threatened by some conservative Muslims. In spite of the criticism, Wadud has continued her speaking engagements, and has continued to lead mixed-gender Friday prayer services. On October 28, 2005, following her talk at the International Congress on Islamic Feminism in Barcelona, Spain, she was invited to lead a congregation of about thirty people.

Media appearance
She appeared on WNYC radio on July 14, 2006; there she discussed the issue of her activities of bringing women into a gender-mixed Friday prayer service.
Muslims response:

In Saudi Arabia, Grand Mufti Abdul-Aziz qal-Sheik spoke out against it in Friday prayers at a Riyadh mosque.
"Those who defended this issue are violating God's law," he said. "Enemies of Islam are using women's issues to corrupt the community."
Soad Saleh, who heads the Islamic department of the women's college at Al-Azhar University considered the act apostacy, which is punishable by death in Islam.
"It is categorically forbidden for women to lead prayers [if they include men worshippers] and intentionally violates the basics of Islam," she said. She said women should not lead prayers because "the woman's body, even if it is veiled, stirs desire."
Abdul-Moti Bayoumi, of the Islamic Research Center at Al-Azhar, said Wadud had carried out "a bad and deviant innovation" that contradicted the Prophet Mohammed's sayings and deeds
Regards,
Ella
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snakelegs
02-11-2007, 09:07 PM
izak,
i think the answer would be similar to the question can a woman serve as a rabbi or khazan (speaking about orthodox jews here).
men are so weak, and so unable to control themselves that they would not be able to focus on god.
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Umar001
02-11-2007, 09:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
men are so weak, and so unable to control themselves that they would not be able to focus on god.
I wonder if thats a real reason or a speculative reason.
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snakelegs
02-11-2007, 09:22 PM
speculative. what else could it be?
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Umar001
02-11-2007, 09:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
speculative. what else could it be?

Well there are reasons which would be real, i.e. if Allah or the Prophet said 'you cant do this because this and that'

so this and that would be a real reason.

Whilst specualtive is when Allah or the Prophet said 'You cant do this' then scholars or so say 'this is I think becuse of this and that'

Thats my own kind of understanding.
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ella
02-11-2007, 09:37 PM
Because woman are so highly charged sexually they will attempt to molest the men praying?
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Umar001
02-11-2007, 09:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ella
Because woman are so highly charged sexually they will attempt to molest the men praying?

I beg your pardon. :uuh:
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snakelegs
02-11-2007, 09:41 PM
well, this is just my angle on it. i certainly don't know the real reasons - just my interpretation.
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Malaikah
02-12-2007, 10:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
men are so weak, and so unable to control themselves that they would not be able to focus on god.
Are they really that easily distracted? :?

Anyway, to the original poster, what did you mean by Imam? The person who leads people in prayer or something else?
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Emperor
02-14-2007, 11:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Right or wrong, it is being done in Morocco.
And in China. In that country there are separate mosques for women with women imams.
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Al_Imaan
02-14-2007, 11:54 PM
^^cool....i just hope a further step is not taken in which women start leading men in prayer....:rollseyes
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snakelegs
02-15-2007, 02:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
Are they really that easily distracted? :?
apparently.
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zaki.aumeerudy
02-15-2007, 11:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
What are you speaking of? The witness accounts have nothing to do with this. Because there are areas where a woman's witness is the same as a mans!!

i did not say all verses of the quran
the prophet also said if it was permitted to do sijdah for someone else except Allahu azza wa jall he would have asked the wife to make sijdah for his husband
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zaki.aumeerudy
02-15-2007, 11:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Right or wrong, it is being done in Morocco.

http://www.lailalalami.com/blog/archives/004188.html
Morroco is not an islamic country .It is the country of sorcery
u have open markets where all u want to practice occult/black magic/sorcery are sold in open air with the approval of the state
Reply

mizan_aliashraf
02-15-2007, 11:42 AM
Simple answer: No
Reply

Emperor
02-15-2007, 06:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Assalamu 'alaykum,

a woman can lead women in prayers but a woman can't/shouldn't be an imam or imamma, if you like. if a woman was an imamma, then everyone would know when her period is because she would be absent for that. not the kind of thing you want the whole ummah to know about...

:w:
Thats true, but
this problem does not occur if women imams lead prayers in women-only mosques as is done in China.
Reply

Umm Yoosuf
02-16-2007, 06:07 AM
Because woman are so highly charged sexually they will attempt to molest the men praying?
men are so weak, and so unable to control themselves that they would not be able to focus on god.
Lets leave the above saying to a side, it is as simple as its not part of the sunnah.



format_quote Originally Posted by ella

A small number of scholars allow women to lead men who are her maharam, if she is the most learned amongst them and in the confines of her home as Umm Waraqah was ordered to do so and so was Aisha. Umm Waraqah lead only the members of her household in Prayer, she was not given an order to lead the Prayer in the mosque.

Regards,
Ella

Hi

I do not know where you the explanation from. If you gathered this from your own understanding know that it is wrong. It is not part of the sunnah for women to lead men in prayer!

Men and women are not the SAME, each have a different role in certain aspects of Islam on saying that that does not mean they are unequal. She may not even lead her own father!

The Prophet pbuh asked Umm Waraqah and ‘Aa’ishah (ra) to read WOMEN in prayer not men don't misunderstand the hadiths.


If women gather together in one house in accordance with the conditions mentioned above, it is permissible for them to pray in congregation. The one who is leading them in prayer should stand in the middle of the (first) row, not out in front, and she should not lead men in prayer even if they are her mahrams. She should recite our loud just as men do in the prayers where reciting out loud is required, so long as no men except her mahrams can hear her voice.

It was narrated that Umm Waraqah bint ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Nawfal al-Ansaariyyah asked the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) for permission to appoint a muezzin in her house who would call her to prayer, and he told her to lead the people of her household in prayer.

Narrated by Abu Dawood, 591; classed as hasan by Shaykh al-Albaani in Irwa’ al-Ghaleel, 493.

And it was narrated from ‘Aa’ishah that she would give the call to prayer and lead other women in prayer, standing in the middle of the row.

And ‘Aa’ishah led women in obligatory prayers, standing in the midst of them.

And it was narrated that Hujayrah bint Haseen said: Umm Salamaah led us in prayer standing in the midst of the women.

And it was narrated from Umm al-Hasan that she saw Umm Salamah, the wife of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), leading women in prayer, standing with them in their row.

Shaykh al-Albaani (may Allaah have mercy on him) said, after narrating these reports:

In conclusion, these reports are sound and may be acted upon, especially since they confirm the general meaning of the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Women are the twin halves of men…”

Sifat Salaat al-Nabi (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), p. 153-155.

Ibn Qudaamah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

She should recite out loud in prayers where it is required to recite out loud, but if there are any men present, she should not recite out loud, unless they are her mahrams, in which case she may do so.

Al-Mughni, 2/17

http://www.islam-qa.com/special/inde...site=14&ln=eng
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zaki.aumeerudy
02-16-2007, 08:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Emperor
Thats true, but
this problem does not occur if women imams lead prayers in women-only mosques as is done in China.
what are the conditions associated with that
Reply

Emperor
02-16-2007, 07:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by zaki.aumeerudy
what are the conditions associated with that
As I understand it, there Muslim men and women in China attend separate mosques. There are men-only mosques and women-only mosques. The latter are led by female imams.
Reply

zaki.aumeerudy
02-16-2007, 08:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Emperor
As I understand it, there Muslim men and women in China attend separate mosques. There are men-only mosques and women-only mosques. The latter are led by female imams.
i would need a website refernce for that if possible
Reply

Emperor
02-16-2007, 08:18 PM
I have one:shade:
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Emperor
02-16-2007, 08:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by zaki.aumeerudy
i would need a website refernce for that if possible
Here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3656180.stm

Reply

zaki.aumeerudy
02-17-2007, 06:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Emperor
thanks i would check it out
Reply

Muslim Knight
02-17-2007, 12:32 PM
Here's what one of our Muslim scholars in Malaysia has to say about women leading prayer;


Text of the response from Shaykh Muhammad Afifi:

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate and Merciful.

Alhamdulillah al-muwaffiq li-s-sawab!
  • Masha'allah; indeed we are living in interesting times! Aren't we taught to shy away from the position of Imam and that Imamship is a burden as the Imam acts as the guarantor for his or her followers? Who would want such a responsibility!
  • It would be best for us not to dignify those who wish to go against the general consensus [ijma' al-'amma] of the Muslims (may Allah forgive them!) in this mas'ala [legal case] by responding with a discussion of the scriptural evidences [ta'arrud al-adilla], primary and otherwise, of why in Islam women simply do not lead men in the formal prayer [Salat]just as Catholics think it inconceivable or some Protestants find it damagingly schismatic for a woman to lead the formal liturgical services), but not so in offering other prayers [Du'a], conducting a class, or - subject to the differences of opinions, rahmatan [out of mercy], among the jurists of our ummah - in becoming the judge of a courtroom or even, executing the affairs of a nation.
  • Instead, a student of fiqh and a jurist can only do what must be done in this case, that is to inform the Muslim public, and to remind ourselves our knowledge of Fard 'Ayn in this matter that our daughters and sons should know even before they reach the age of baligh [pubescent], the legal ruling and the status of the prayer of a woman who has led a mixed congregation made up among women, men also.
  • As a Shafi'i, I can only relate what our own Mujtahid Imam himself have said in the motherbook of our books [Kitab al-Umm by Imam al-Shafi`i rady Allahu `anh] about the status of those taking part in that congregation (and of course, this ruling applies only to those men whose knowledge of this was before the event and were conscious of what they were doing):
  • "If a woman leads men, women and male children, the Salat of the women [the woman Imam including the women Ma'muns] are valid whereas the Salat of the men and the male children are invalid. This is because Allah (Glory and Exalted is He!) has made men supporters of women and has discouraged them from becoming protectors and so forth. It would not be permissible for a woman to be an Imam of a man in any prayer at any time whatsoever. Likewise, were a disputed hermaphrodite [khuntha mushkil; i.e., his male characteristics being more dominant over his female ones]to be among those following the woman in Salat, his Salat in her company would not have been valid." [Umm, 1:292]
  • So, alhamdulillah, if it was a case of leading one of the five daily Salats, the lady and her women followers are absolved from any misconduct and they would have in this case fulfilled their minimum religious duty and that only the men who had followed them in this are sadly the only losers from this affair and will have to make up their prayers [qada'] again.
  • If, however, it was a case of leading the Friday Prayer, then, according to our [Shafi`i] school, even the Salat of the womenfolk in this case will be insufficient [ghayr mujzi'ah] and unfortunately invalid in which case everyone there must later make up their Zuhr prayers.
  • If it was the case of the Friday Prayer, then I for one, find it humorous why those who are not obligated to perform the Jumu'ah and have been given dispensation from not doing so would go heads over heels to attend and moreover lead it. Surely, it will be a hardship for the umma, especially today, if our women are expected to also perform the Friday duty. (The original fiqh ruling [asl] for them to attend is only Mandub and not Wajib.) I am sure that even the "Progressive Muslim" women of Malaysia will not welcome the thought of relinquishing the *rest* they enjoy that day? Didn't Allah the Most High say: wa-mA ja'ala 'alaykum fI d-dIni min Harajin [He did not impose hardship on you in religion](al-Hajj, 78)? And as in the Hadith of Tariq b. Shihab (may Allah be well pleased with him!) makes clear, our beloved Messenger (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him!) said: "al-jumu'atu Haqqun wAjibun 'alA kulli muslimin fI jamA'atin illA arba'atan mamlUkun wa-mra'atun wa-Sabiyyun wa-marIdun" [The Friday [prayer] is something obligatory upon every Muslim in congregation except for four [people]: a slave, a woman, a child, and a sick person.] (Related by Abu Dawud, al-Hakim and al-Bayhaqi.)

++Fa'ida++ [Benefit]
  • Unlike the Friday Prayer, a woman may even become an Imam for the 'Id Prayer for her same-sex congregation. She could do all of this except for the formal sermon [khutba] which has to be delivered by a man since this is among the condition [shart] of the khutba. However, if the women wanted, (but the hukm is khilaf awla [=status of contrary to best]) they could even do without the man and his formal khutba and have in his place, a woman. This is permissible and valid in our school-except that that on a point of technicality, her talk is not called a khutba but a maw'iza. This is made clearly by Imam al-Bujayrimi (may Allah be pleased with him!) among others in the Hashiya of the Iqna': "Likewise [to have the khutba after the two rak'as of the 'Id Prayer, even if it is directed to a congregation made up of only] for women. However, only a man can deliver the formal sermon. On the other hand, if a woman were to stand and deliver a talk to them without a formal sermon, there is no harm in doing so." [Bujayrimi, Iqna', 2:447].
  • It is not a surprise therefore that armed with this precedent, for example, we find today in Indonesia of mosques that offer exclusive 'Id Prayers for women only led by women scholars. Aren't these the progressive and efficient ones who work within the framework of our laws and our processes?

[gfh: And among the Hui women of Central China also with their women-only schools and mosques cf. www.smh.com.au]
  • One hikma arising from this American event is that it will ironically be something of a bad press for the "Progressive Muslim" women in a country like Malaysia where the issue of a woman leading a man in Salat is simply a non-issue nay even a turn off. There, the general audience, whether men and women will be able to preview the package of 'progressive' light waiting at the end of this tunnel and indeed scare people away from it. Equally, the other hikma should be a warning for us men who have transgressed and have been unjust [zulm =>wad' al-shay' fi ghayri mahallihi] by abusing his position of authority and trust; let this episode be a wakeup call for the Muslim communities everywhere especially if we have denied the rightful rights of our mothers and our sisters to drink from the founts of knowledge and share our fontes sapientiae. Nothing happens without a reason and students of theology know only too well that it is but natural (for it is from Sunnatullah) that all forms of imbalances and injustices will inevitably undergo divine correction [ta'dil] even if in the process the temporary solutions turn out to be extremely perverted. The lesson for our men is to be aware that the original grievances and questions leading to these distorted answers are often right and legitimate. May Allah open our eyes and make us understand that which we know not!

  • Those who are blessed with knowledge and use their common sense will in the end come to realize that despite the deviations by certain sectarian groups such as the Khawarij and the irregularities of at most one or two jurists, the Umma has never practiced nor accepted nor witnessed a precedent in any of our communities since the earliest times until today the practice of a woman leading a man in Salat. This indeed is a genuine case of a misguided innovation [bid'a dalala], a type of khilaf that is not from rahma but of fitna, and a munkar that deserves to be censured and kept well away from our children. Wouldn't it be more beneficial for a "progressive" women group to come down from these lofty issues and fight instead the bread and butter ones and address the real problems faced on the ground by our sisters today such as their physical welfare and education?


~~Hikaya~~ [A Story]
  • Perhaps, in this group's overzealous calls towards equality and freedom on behalf of our women, they had overlooked two separate legal issue: the case of a woman leadership vs. Imamship. For this, we may derive benefit from the following true story that happened in Malaysia during the recent general election for a parliamentary seat contested by two candidates: an Imam of a famous mosque vs. a Muslim woman (note: the presence of Muslim women MPs in this country is a normal sight).
  • During the election campaign, in his attempt to curry favour with his constituency, the Imam questioned the suitability of the woman for the office arguing that religiously, she could not even lead the Salat. She responded famously by saying: "That's OK, let him remain an Imam in the mosque but give her his parliamentary seat!" In the end, this cost him his seat. fi-ha kifaya li-ahli l-'ilm! [A sufficient lesson for the knowledgeable]
  • Subhanallah: how true are the words of one of our great predecessors, Imam Abu Zakariyya al-Razi (may Allah sanctify his secrets!) for both the woman and the man respectively in this congregation: "I am amazed at someone who seeks something extra while abandoning a duty!"
  • And masha'allah: this episode shows how appropriate were the words of our great Imam, Abu Bakr al-Warraq (may Allah sanctify his soul!)who remarked that most of what is spent in our time are 4 x 4: "(1) the extras over the obligatory; (2) the outer form over the inner state;(3)other people over oneself; and (4) speaking over action".
  • I end with a du'a and a reminder for myself mostly: allAhumma innA na'Udhubika min 'ilmin lA yanfa'u wa-min 'ilmin yaSiru Hujjatan 'alaynAfI yawmi l-qiyAma [O Allah, protect us from knowledge which are useless and from knowledge that will become a proof against us in the Next world!]

Muhammad Afifi al-Akiti
1st Safar 1426
12 III 2005

Select Bibliography:

al-Bujayrimi. al-Bujayrimi 'ala al-Khatib wa-huwa Hashiyat
al-Bujayrimi
al-Musammat Tuhfat al-Habib 'ala Sharh al-Khatib al-Ma'ruf bi l-Iqna'
fi Hall Alfaz Abi Shuja'. 5 vols. Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-'Ilmiyya, 1996.
al-Shafi'i. al-Umm. Edited by Mahmud Matraji. 9 vols. Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-'Ilmiyya, 1993.

End of the response from Shaykh Muhammad Afifi, Allah reward him!

Reply

Emperor
02-18-2007, 04:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by zaki.aumeerudy
Morroco is not an islamic country .It is the country of sorcery
u have open markets where all u want to practice occult/black magic/sorcery are sold in open air with the approval of the state
Are there any countries in existence that can be said to be truly Islamic?
What are your thoughts on this?
Reply

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