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جوري
02-23-2007, 11:28 PM
I wanted to know everyone's opinion on what they feel were the causes of the fall of the Muslim empire...

Also the mistakes made by Muslims today that weren't committed during the rise of the Muslim empire... what is it that today's youths are lacking as opposed to their counterparts centuries ago?

My personal opinion I felt the Mongol invasion was one... Don't think things were quite the same from then onward...

thanks
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strider
02-23-2007, 11:36 PM
Corrupted leaders who let go of the teachings of Islam in an attempt to satisfy their worldly desires.
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جوري
02-23-2007, 11:49 PM
There were pretty bad ones back then too... like Al Hajaj and mo3awya... somehow people then managed to overcome that... but now we aren't able to... why? what is different now?
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strider
02-24-2007, 12:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
There were pretty bad ones back then too... like Al Hajaj and mo3awya... somehow people then managed to overcome that... but now we aren't able to... why? what is different now?
Lack of unity?
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- Qatada -
02-24-2007, 12:05 AM
:salamext:


Sister PurestAmbrosia, lets not say nothing bad about Mu'awiya (radhiAllaahu anhu.) Remember that he was a companion of the Messenger of Allaah (sal Allaahu alayhi waSalam.)

Once Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal was asked who was better, Umar ibn Abdul Aziz or Mu'awiya, and he said how can you compare a companion of the Messenger of Allaah to a student of the companions? That's why its better to speak a good word or remain silent insha'Allaah. Jazaak Allaahu khayrun.
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جوري
02-24-2007, 12:54 AM
Thank you and advise well taken:
But be that as it may... people have had their share of unjust rulers, and still managed to come out on top... I really would like to get to the root of what is wrong now as opposed to then. I haven't bad mouthed Mo3awaya in the sense you describe or wishing to avoid, however, all history books at least what I was tought when I lived in Saudi Arabia is that his methods were less conventional than the rest of the sahaba or the khalifs at the time.

after that whole age even... there were several invasions and there were the crusades yet Muslims managed to come out on top... now they aren't... and I would just like to analyze the events that led to this point to see how it can be changed or what can be changed? Why are we so different from them?
Thank you
Jazaka Allah Khyran
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Skillganon
02-24-2007, 01:02 AM
I personally think is because the Muslims became negligence of their deen.
All the things the prophet said about muslims.

Also foreign interference, they are always their plotting.
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
02-24-2007, 01:05 AM
:sl:

Love of this life:
On the authority of Thawbaan , the Prophet said:

“The People will soon summon one another to attack you as people when eating invite others to share their food.” Someone asked, “Will that be because of our small numbers at that time?” He replied, “No, you will be numerous at that time: but you will be froth and scum like that carried down by a torrent (of water), and Allah will take the fear of you from the breasts (hearts) of your enemy and cast al-wahn into your hearts.” Someone asked, “O Messenger of Allah, what is al-wahn?” He replied, “Love of the world and dislike of death.”
[An authentic hadith recorded by Abu Dawud and Ahmad]
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جوري
02-24-2007, 01:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al Madani
:sl:

Love of this life:
On the authority of Thawbaan , the Prophet said:

“The People will soon summon one another to attack you as people when eating invite others to share their food.” Someone asked, “Will that be because of our small numbers at that time?” He replied, “No, you will be numerous at that time: but you will be froth and scum like that carried down by a torrent (of water), and Allah will take the fear of you from the breasts (hearts) of your enemy and cast al-wahn into your hearts.” Someone asked, “O Messenger of Allah, what is al-wahn?” He replied, “Love of the world and dislike of death.”
[An authentic hadith recorded by Abu Dawud and Ahmad]
I read this hadith several times and it really makes me very sad... that is exactly where we are now... Wish we can collectively change but I don't know how change will come? Though so many people tell me they feel a spirit of change already stirring... I don't know if I believe it imsad
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NoName55
02-24-2007, 03:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
There were pretty bad ones back then too... like Al Hajaj and mo3awya... somehow people then managed to overcome that... but now we aren't able to... why? what is different now?
Kindly *Explain* the statement (That I marked in bold text) with evidence
:w:
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جوري
02-24-2007, 04:42 AM
well... I'll exclude mo3aya as per request... But Alhajjaj was a very austere ruler of Iraq... who tortured Muslims.... http://www.princeton.edu/~batke/itl/denise/hajjaj.htm

I don't know how truthful everything is on the website I provided as I just did a quick search... I can't find a decent link as I read this story so long ago and in Arabic part of my school curriculum ...I remember the story of one Muslim in particular who outwitted him even as Al hajjaj was torturing him to death... if anyone has a more credible source on him feel free to share it
thanks
wasalaam
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- Qatada -
02-24-2007, 02:15 PM
:salamext:


I think i once read that Hasan Al-Basri said that Al Hajjaaj was a trial of Allaah sent to the people because i think people had become excessive and stuff.. like if you look at the life of the sahabah compared to the time of the Umayya dynasty - you'll see a huge difference, because so much wealth has come into the ummah.


Here's a good lecture on the life of the Khulafah Rashidoon, and the Ummaya dynasty:

http://www.pleasantviewschool.com/media/

Click on Islamic History.



Mu'awiya (radhiAllaahu anhu) introduced the hereditary concept - yes. But he still worked hard to apply the islamic law. Even though there were controversial things that did occur within his lifetime. That's why the martyrdom of Ali was the end of the Khalifah Raashida [guided successors] until Umar ibn Abdul Aziz who came from the Ummaya and he was the 5th Khalifah Al-Raashid according to Sufyan Al-Thawri [recorded in Abi Dawud.]
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- Qatada -
02-24-2007, 02:20 PM
:salamext:


I've also noticed this, that since after the Prophethood and till the end of the Guided Khalifah, as time has progressed.. the muslims gradually have followed the way of the jews and christians by gradually giving up their way of life and imitating the christians and jews instead.


Look what the Messenger of Allaah himself said:

Abu Sa'id al-Khudri reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You would tread the same path as was trodden by those before you inch by inch and step by step so much so that if they had entered into the hole of the lizard, you would follow them in this also.

We said: Allah's Messenger, do you mean Jews and Christians (by your words) "those before you"?

He said: Who else (than those two religious groups)?
-Sahih Muslim, Hadith 6448

Just compare our islamic history and the closer you come to our time - the more we have become like them [i.e. giving up our islaam for worldly pleasures and imitating the ways of the people before us.] We seek refuge in Allaah.


Here's a hadith which cheered me up though alhamdulillah:


The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said:
"The Prophethood will last among you for as long as Allah (God) wills, then Allah would take it away. Then it will be (followed by) a Khilafah [caliphate] Rashida (rightly guided) according to the ways of the Prophethood. It will remain for as long as Allah wills, then Allah would take it away. Afterwards there will be a hereditary leadership which will remain for as long as Allah wills, then He will lift it if He wishes. Afterwards, there will be biting oppression, and it will last for as long as Allah wishes, then He will lift it if He wishes. Then there will be a Khilafah Rashida according to the ways of the Prophethood," then he kept silent.

[recorded in Musnad Imam Ahmad (v/273)]


We're under the underlined stage, and all the events before it have occured in our islamic history. Inshaa'Allaah the rest of the prophecy will soon come into effect.


According to the hadith, the prophet (pbuh) will be followed by rightly guided caliphs and after those caliphs (Abu Baker, Omar, Uthman and Ali) will come hereditary leadership (all other Caliphs) and after that will come tyrannical rule (today) and after that will come a rightly guided caliphs yet again inshaa'Allaah.
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Muslim Knight
02-24-2007, 02:23 PM
There's pattern here. If we study the history of Islamic empires we tend to notice the decline whenever there's a sovereign who is always indulging in worldly pleasures (drinking, womanizing) and engaging in useless debates (such as whether the Quran was created or the word of God).

Reflects much in our ummah today where many of our youths are engaging in much TV and excessive entertainment.
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Keltoi
02-24-2007, 03:24 PM
The decline of the Muslim empires, like the Ottomans and Safavids, obviously didn't happen overnight. In the case of the Safavids, it started with a series of bad rulers and finished with the rebellion of persecuted religious groups. By that I mean Sunnis. I think it was in the 1700's when the Sunnis captured Afghanistan and then took the Safavid capital of Isfahan. Spelling the end of that empire.

We all know what happened to the Ottomans. They were in decline before WWI, but they chose the wrong side during that war and paid dearly for it. What damaged them even more was the European dominance of the sea trade.
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Akil
02-27-2007, 12:16 PM
Very generally I believe Muslim civilization began to decline when they began to reject all types of knowledge of activities not considered essentially Muslim including science, mathematics, philosophy etc. Salat is good and respectable but does not drive social or economic development.
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Keltoi
02-27-2007, 01:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Akil
Very generally I believe Muslim civilization began to decline when they began to reject all types of knowledge of activities not considered essentially Muslim including science, mathematics, philosophy etc. Salat is good and respectable but does not drive social or economic development.
That's true, but the primary cause of the decline of the Ottomans and the Safavids was political, not really ideological. Any great civilization must be nurtured, that is true, and in so far as intellectual creativity was stifled that didn't help. However, inner strife between princes, the growing power of the European nations, and their lack of sea trade spelled the end of them. The Ottomans could have survived if they hadn't backed Germany in WWI.
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Erundur
02-27-2007, 01:53 PM
:salamext:

1. Allah (swt)
2. corrupted leaders who cared more about expanding then internal issues.
3. Internal strife/ Arab and Non-Arab/ various ideals etc.
4. Arrogance, the feeling of superiority without realizing that Europe was increasing its knowledge.

and repeat over and over and over again.

:sl:
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جوري
02-27-2007, 02:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Akil
Very generally I believe Muslim civilization began to decline when they began to reject all types of knowledge of activities not considered essentially Muslim including science, mathematics, philosophy etc. Salat is good and respectable but does not drive social or economic development.
lol......... I am not sure how to even begin commenting on that....
you can begin by reading this http://www.netmuslims.com/info/contributions.html
Then come tell me how Science and Math are essentially Unislamic........
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Talha777
02-27-2007, 02:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
That's true, but the primary cause of the decline of the Ottomans and the Safavids was political, not really ideological. Any great civilization must be nurtured, that is true, and in so far as intellectual creativity was stifled that didn't help. However, inner strife between princes, the growing power of the European nations, and their lack of sea trade spelled the end of them. The Ottomans could have survived if they hadn't backed Germany in WWI.
Mr. Keltoi, I respectfully beg to differ. The primary cause of the fall of any civilization is their unrighteousness and wickedness. Allah Tala has mentioned in the Holy Quran how He liquidated so many civilizations which considered themselves as "superpowers". Look how Allah humiliated Pharoah of Egypt because he rejected Hazrat Nabi Musa (alaihi salam). Look how Allah destroyed the people who rejected Hazrat Nabi Nuh (alaihi salam), and the destruction of Sadum (Sodom) is definitely an object lesson for all. The destruction and fall of all of these societies is because they became sinful, and Allah withdrew His favor from them and caused them to shatter. This is an imminent lesson and warning for the superpower civilizations of today. No matter how high they are on the ladder of economic and military power, if it is the will of Allah for them to fall, they will come crashing down at the most unexpected moment.

أَلَمْ يَرَوْاْ كَمْ أَهْلَكْنَا مِن قَبْلِهِم مِّن قَرْنٍ مَّكَّنَّاهُمْ فِي الأَرْضِ مَا لَمْ نُمَكِّن لَّكُمْ وَأَرْسَلْنَا السَّمَاء عَلَيْهِم مِّدْرَارًا وَجَعَلْنَا الأَنْهَارَ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهِمْ فَأَهْلَكْنَاهُم بِذُنُوبِهِمْ وَأَنْشَأْنَا مِن بَعْدِهِمْ قَرْنًا آخَرِينَ

See they not how many of those before them We did destroy?- generations We had established on the earth, in strength such as We have not given to you - for whom We poured out rain from the skies in abundance, and gave (fertile) streams flowing beneath their (feet): yet for their sins We destroyed them, and raised in their wake fresh generations (to succeed them).
[Al-Anam 6:6]
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Erundur
02-27-2007, 02:41 PM
I'd also like to add Europe's quest to the Americas and how its trade industry switched mainly from the East to the Americas. All that gold that they found started to devalue the Turkish currency.

There are numerous reasons for the decline of the Ottoman Empire. The dominating reason, is that neighbour powers had grown stronger over the centuries. They had built stronger institutions, introduced modern arms, infrastructure and administration.

On the Ottoman side, however, many things had frozen in old structures, development on Ottoman territories was limited.

More than that, Ottoman institutions were often not working as smoothly as they used to.

But there were more things not working as they should have: The sultans since Süleyman had often been less apt to their role; more and more power had moved into the hands of the kapikulli class; the trade routes running through the empire was no longer as important for Europe, and hence yielded less income; the population had grown big and had become less controllable; cities had become weaker. By the time of the 19th century, the European mock name of the empire was correct: The sick man of Europe.

The Ottoman Empire tried to correct all the weaknesses, but it proved to be too late. It was during the times of the reform process, Tanzimat, that the empire lost the most of its territory.
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Akil
02-27-2007, 03:06 PM
Then come tell me how Science and Math are essentially Unislamic........
When Islamic society crested was during a period when they were rejecting many academic and creative pursuits as western or un-Islamic. My point is that aside from politics, I believe it was during this intellectual stifling that Muslim society began to decline.
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جوري
02-27-2007, 03:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Erundur
I'd also like to add Europe's quest to the Americas and how its trade industry switched mainly from the East to the Americas. All that gold that they found started to devalue the Turkish currency.
Found? YOu mean stole....... British empire just by itself if nothing else stole the wealth of nations... From Hong Kong to china to India to Africa... they would give people things like Opium... in fact force it on them. They benefited from the Suez Canal In Egypt Where Egyptians were coming at a net loss of 18% and they murdered any one who protested and you can have the last of the Turks to Thank for that.... Basically they have come invaded, divided... STOLE.... and have the audacity to come tell people who backwards they are, in fact till do...... If anything the Muslim empire and the rest of the places where the birth of civilization started; it is being too trusting... too open door for outsiders who bit the hand that let them in!

Yes! Anyone with basic grade school education would know anything scientific or Mathematical had its basis in the Muslims Empire or in Empires that proceeded. How quick are we to forget the (Dark Ages) where Europe dwelled in ignorance and superstition. How quick we forget the roots of words like Algebra, Cipher , Alchemy and the very numbers we write with and pass of as English, when in fact they are Arabic.

http://www.1001inventions.com/index....tSectionID=309









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جوري
02-27-2007, 03:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Akil
When Islamic society crested was during a period when they were rejecting many academic and creative pursuits as western or un-Islamic. My point is that aside from politics, I believe it was during this intellectual stifling that Muslim society began to decline.
You can say they rejected such and such ideas.... societies go into cyclical changes! Happened to the best from the Not so holy Roman Empire to the so-called Empire where the sun never sets!.... but don't pass off Math and Science as against Islam or as Un-Islamic.... that is just simply unacceptable!
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Erundur
02-27-2007, 03:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Found? YOu mean stole....... British empire just by itself if nothing else stole the wealth of nations... From Hong Kong to china to India to Africa... they would give people things like Opium... in fact force it on them. They benefited from the Suez Canal In Egypt Where Egyptians were coming at a net loss of 18% and they murdered any one who protested and you can have the last of the Turks to Thank for that.... Basically they have come invaded, divided... STOLE..If anything the Muslim empire and the rest of the places where the birth of civilization started; it is being too trusting... too open door for outsiders who bit the hand that let them in!

please Give an Educated opinion Next time!
The Islamic Empire nurtured the past teachings of the Egyptians, Romans,
Greeks and various nations they had conquered and not only expanded its ideas but they too contributed. Where did I specifically stated that it was Britain? both Spain and Portugal had profited with the Muslims of Western Africa this led to the downfall of economic goods of Africa and the fall African nations and the sudden rise of the need of African Slaves to work at the plantations of the Americas.

1798: Napoleon Bonaparte launches an Egyptian expedition and brings Egypt under French rule.

1820: Britain signs treaty with Gulf shaikhs to protect its shipping.

1881:France occupies Tunisia.

1882: British forces occupy Egypt; by 1898, Britain also controls Sudan.

Its not a matter of being to trusting but a matter of making some extra pocket change.

With the advancements of the Europeans towards the latter century its no surprising that they were able to have the affect that they had as you see above. They were quite smart really, and the Muslims took it hook line and sinker. The Islamic Empire was at a decline and the rulers did not care instead interacting on a educational level we wanted to make more and more money.

Each nation had there achievements.

Ijtihad and science

By K H Masud


For three hundred years, the doors of the tavern have been closed — Iqbal

Why is it that for the last three hundred years, the Muslim world has been so deficient in producing scientists and philosophers? Why is it that even now when the Muslim world commands such immense resources, we lag so far behind the West in science and technology?

The answer is clear: for three hundred years, the door of ijtihad (creative thinking) has been closed. Almost one-ninth of the verses of the Qur’an stress upon “tafakkur” and “tadabbur”, yet, by and large, the Muslim world pays no heed to them. They turn their backs on critical and creative thinking.

Instead, we are fond of platitudes. We love clichés. We bask in the glory of the past. We dread the new, the original, the novel. We are good at repeating moth-eaten, time-worn thoughts. We revel in interpretations, but we flinch from creativity. Using Toynbee’s terminology, we are in the stranglehold of the “nemesis of mimesis”. Intellectual stagnation and spiritual degeneration are our dismal lot.

It is ingrained in our psychology that correct already exists. Teachers dispense truth, parents are always right. Leaders are omniscient. They act like philosopher-kings, often uttering banalities which cannot be challenged.

Following the iconoclastic spirit of the Quran, it is time to think in a new way and to tread on untrodden path.

Scholars may differ about problems concerning science, but they are unanimous as regards the need for a particular weltanschauung (world-view) for the birth, growth and blossoming of science.

Science cannot develop in an atmosphere vitiated by obscurantism, dogmatism, fanaticism, irrationalism and intolerance. Science needs an intellectual environment whose keynote is enlightenment with rationalism, pluralism, and humanism as the driving force.

...

The Greek science withered away because it wholly and solely depended on deduction. Though the Greek scaled the sublimest heights of speculative thought, their aversion to experimentation and manual work closed the door for further scientific advancement.

Induction was a great gift of Islam to humanity. “Neither Roger Bacon nor his later namesake has any title to be credited for having introduced the experimental method,” says Briffault in his book “The Making of Humanity.”

According to Iqbal, “For purposes of knowledge, the Muslim culture fixes its gaze on the concrete and the finite.” When Iqbal emphasized the concrete and the finite, he exalted the scientific spirit at the expense of speculative flights into meta-physics.

By giving examples of Ibn-i-Khaldun’s view of history, Ibn-i-Maskwaih’s theory of life as evolutionary movement and Musa al-Khwarizmi’s shift from arithmetic to algebra, Iqbal concludes: “All lines of Muslim thought converge on a dynamic concept of the universe.”

Thus Islam rejects a static view of the universe and regards it as always changing and evolving. According to the Qur’an, change is one of the greatest signs of God, and is explicitly implied in the verse: “Every day has its own glory.”

The Islamic principle to keep pace with the changing world and an evolving universe is ijtihad i.e. exertion to form an independent opinion. Creativity is the essence of ijtihad. The driving spirit of the scientific technological revolution is creativity, devolving new ideas and sailing in uncharted seas.

Science must precede technology, because science is the tree and technology is the fruit. Today, as never before, the political stability of a country depends on its economic prowess, which is determined by the scientific technological revolution, depending on ijtihad ie, creative thinking.

In order to usher in scientific technological revolution, we have to take the following steps:

Firstly, our educational system must be geared to strengthen mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology and computer science.

Secondly, our method of teaching and examination must change, emphasising the intelligent grasp of the subjects rather than memorising formulas and theories.

Thirdly, our mass media must be mobilised to popularise science and scientific thinking.

http://www.irfi.org/articles/article...nd_science.htm

now when you have people who like...

Polio Vaccine is a US plot.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/pakistan/S...013369,00.html
I got one word to say about this:NUTS!
no wonder the Islamic world is so weak,we(in this case Pakstan) got the biggest bunch of illiterates in the world.No reach of government law,nothing.
really strange.
Its not all that surprising now is it?

Saudi expressed so much on Islam (which isn't a bad thing mind you) that they forgot advancements in other fields in mathematics, science, history etc... that they now have to send its students to western institutions.

Our greatest scholars of the time were not only religious scholars but they were philosiphers, Educators, Businessmen and so forth...now its either one or the other.
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جوري
02-27-2007, 03:45 PM
My previous comments weren't directed all toward your post Dear Bro.
I am just a little vexed over how someone can sum or rather erase entire contributions in one dismissive sentence. When even the most basic of history books taught in Middle school would attest to the Muslims Empire's contributions to Math and the sciences. I will not deny that things aren't horrendous now, else I wouldn't have even elected to start this post. It is one thing for people to have a lagging phase where they simply don't advance as much but to pass it off as AGAINST the teachings of Islam to do so is a bit detestable.
I am concluding that it isn't one force that has led to the demise of the Muslims Empire rather several forces from outside and within that left us where we are today!
Peace!
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Erundur
02-27-2007, 03:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
My previous comments weren't directed all toward your post Dear Bro.
I am just a little vexed over how someone can sum or rather erase entire contributions in one dismissive sentence. When even the most basic of history books taught in Middle school would attest to the Muslims Empire's contributions to Math and the sciences. I will not deny that things aren't horrendous now, else I wouldn't have even elected to start this post. It is one thing for people to have a lagging phase where they simply don't advance as much but to pass it off as AGAINST the teachings of Islam to do so is a bit detestable.
I am concluding that it isn't one force that has led to the demise of the Muslims Empire rather several forces from outside and within that left us where we are today!
Peace!
:salamext:

My apologies I thought you were referring to me. The Winners write History its always been like that. Having been taught in such places they're have been some mentions of the advancements. But again education is taught at a secular level.

:sl:
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Akil
02-27-2007, 03:52 PM
I didn't dismiss anything. This thread is about the end of the Muslim Empire. I was commenting specifically and solely about the end.
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Muslim Knight
02-27-2007, 04:24 PM
The Muslim Empire was at its height during the various discovery in sciences and mathematics by Muslim scientists. The fall of the Ottoman empire resulted from irresponsible Caliph who borrowed money from Europe, later accumulating interest and mowing down the economy. This was further aggravated by siding with the Germans in the World War.
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al-fateh
02-27-2007, 04:30 PM
lack of faith
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