Is god above the laws he creates? Paradox

[Kyubi]

Ibliss is the Jinn who disobeyed Allah's command to prostrate to Adam (as), and was consequently expelled from Heaven. Allah had promised him eternal Hell, but he had asked Allah to give him time before going to Hell to win over Adam's descendants as their followers. Allah had granted him time, and Ibliss has worked towards the destruction of mankind ever since...

And so ends reason and the logic of faith. To clarify, Allah the omnipotent the benevolent being that he is or is said to be has allowed the Shiyatan who has become a mortal enemy of mankind (who for the only course being malice towards us is because Allah created man and effectively brushed off the jinn as a failed race) to **** and cause strife and torment upon us on the whims of a request..

This saddens me, is this the result of our creation fleeting ****ation both the heavens and hell competing to bring man into a burning abode.

[Umar001]

Ibliss is the Jinn who disobeyed Allah's command to prostrate to Adam (as), and was consequently expelled from Heaven. Allah had promised him eternal Hell, but he had asked Allah to give him time before going to Hell to win over Adam's descendants as their followers. Allah had granted him time, and Ibliss has worked towards the destruction of mankind ever since...

And so ends reason and the logic of faith. To clarify, Allah the omnipotent the benevolent being that he is or is said to be has allowed the Shiyatan who has become a mortal enemy of mankind (who for the only course being malice towards us is because Allah created man and effectively brushed off the jinn as a failed race) to **** and cause strife and torment upon us on the whims of a request..

This saddens me, is this the result of our creation fleeting ****ation both the heavens and hell competing to bring man into a burning abode.

From what I understand of your post your saying that Allah has allowed shaytan to cause strige and torment upon us on the whims of a request.
You call such happening the end of reason and logic of faith, rather, maybe your logic ended but sound logic remains.

If I place a test, and throw some red herrings in a test does that mean that the person taking the test is to be doomed? No, rather if he tries and studies, if he asks me for help then I will help him to revise and thus he can know the red herrings in the test. Thus he is not doomed, rather it is upto his choice to ask for help and to study, if he does this then all is well. If he is too arrogant to ask then he will fail.

And to Allah is the best of examples.

[NoName55]

:sl:^^:bravo:

[Woodrow]

Ibliss is the Jinn who disobeyed Allah's command to prostrate to Adam (as), and was consequently expelled from Heaven. Allah had promised him eternal Hell, but he had asked Allah to give him time before going to Hell to win over Adam's descendants as their followers. Allah had granted him time, and Ibliss has worked towards the destruction of mankind ever since...

Interesting thought. I believe that some of us have had that same thought at one time. I know I have had. I can only speak for myself in answering. First to do so I realized I only have very little knowledge of the nature of Allah(swt) But some of what I know is the He is all Powerful and all Just. I also know he is all merciful and all fair to all of His Creation. I also know that there are matters in this universe that really are not of my concern and I have no power over. My final conclusion was "Why should I even have any concern over this?"

And so ends reason and the logic of faith. To clarify, Allah the omnipotent the benevolent being that he is or is said to be has allowed the Shiyatan who has become a mortal enemy of mankind (who for the only course being malice towards us is because Allah created man and effectively brushed off the jinn as a failed race) to **** and cause strife and torment upon us on the whims of a request..

You know Allah(swt) has also made one of my favorite fruits, Prickly pear cactus. They are delicious and I can not get enough or them. Yet, He covered this delicious fruit with some very vicious spines. I also ge myself pretty well stuck when I gather it. But, you know what I do not curse the spines I give thanks for the fruit. I also used to be a bee hunter and gather wild honey in the woods. I always got stung. But, that honey was well worth the stings. Life is life. There are thorns and stings, they are not pleasant. But, the overall picture needs to be looked at not just any single aspect. i do not see where Allah(swt) created these things to torment us, I see them as a challenge to what are the real values in this world. What is the real fruit we need to find? I look at the joy of freedom of choice and because of the ever presence of shaytan, I know what other choices I have, I know what I can choose and pleasures and my way of life. I know I am not a blind robot that has no option to obey. Because of shaytan, I know that my love for AllaH(SWT) has to be genuine, because I know I have other paths I could follow if I so desired.

This saddens me, is this the result of our creation fleeting ****ation both the heavens and hell competing to bring man into a burning abode.

Odd. I look at it as Allah(swt) showing us love and giving us all of the tools we need to keep it from being a competition, but rather giving us absolute freedom to know what is available, understand the consequences and make our own choices. It is as if he has given us a raod map of the universe and we are free to travel upon it. Since it is a map we are the travelers and while the map will show us the location of all the destinations, it is up to us to select the destination we want and then stay on the best path to get to our desired destination.

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[AbuAbdallah]

And so ends reason and the logic of faith. To clarify, Allah the omnipotent the benevolent being that he is or is said to be has allowed the Shiyatan who has become a mortal enemy of mankind (who for the only course being malice towards us is because Allah created man and effectively brushed off the jinn as a failed race) to **** and cause strife and torment upon us on the whims of a request..

What is the purpose of life? "And I have not created the jinns and humans except that they worship me"
The purpose is to worship God all of our lives, the test is when we face trials and when the Shaytan tries to take us off of the straight path.

brushed off the jinn as a failed race

This statement is incorrect, there are kaafir jin and muslim jin.

[Kyubi]

If I place a test, and throw some red herrings in a test does that mean that the person taking the test is to be doomed? No, rather if he tries and studies, if he asks me for help then I will help him to revise and thus he can know the red herrings in the test. Thus he is not doomed, rather it is upto his choice to ask for help and to study, if he does this then all is well. If he is too arrogant to ask then he will fail.

Except this isn't some test where all you have to lose is a bad score and a flunking grade this is life this is existence. If someone can just "throw red herrings" in the way of people's very life's as if there existence is a contrived and insignificant, meaningless other then to suffer and please some higher being in knowledge that he succeeded in creating a race in his own image. It doesn't make sense how people can throw away each other's value, the value of there life the value of there own brothers and sisters there mother and father the people they cherish into a fire for some zeal or doctrine that may or may not be true. And please don't answer with "only through god can we find value" perplexing questions isn't the same as answering them.

With all do respect that creeps me out and in no way am I insulting anything it is the very truth of the matter its why I have to some degree lost my faith in Islam and in religion in general. How the creator can just treat us mankind or Jinn as if were sheep insignificant like meaningless insects. If a creator is that devoid of love and compassion for to ever see something from our point of view from our circumstance what our choices are and how we feel is beyond him.

Interesting thought. I believe that some of us have had that same thought at one time. I know I have had. I can only speak for myself in answering. First to do so I realized I only have very little knowledge of the nature of Allah(swt) But some of what I know is the He is all Powerful and all Just. I also know he is all merciful and all fair to all of His Creation. I also know that there are matters in this universe that really are not of my concern and I have no power over. My final conclusion was "Why should I even have any concern over this?"

Why shouldn't we? If the Jinn can be so easily brushed aside by a creator who claims to be all loving to all his creations and not considering how the Jinn might feel about becoming a byproduct of man then we to can easily one day be brushed away and find out that all of our sacrifices were meaningless. Consider why would Shaytan "rebel" against Allah was he that stupid? Did he throw away everything he had achieved just because of his pride, I don’t think that’s it, I think he realized just how pointless it was to continue devoid worship without love. See it from his perspective he and his race just suffered divine retribution, granted it was due to there own misdeeds much like us but to make things worse he and his race now were brushed aside by the creator they did so rever who now considers them nothing but a failure and if that wasn't enough now he's forced to bow and prostrate himself and devalue the very meaning of his existence. His reaction must have been more emotional when shaytan said he was better maybe he way trying to desperately hold on to what value was left in him. It could be he was heartbroken in the fire of the situation. Can a Jinn be heartbroken? I know what you would say why should we care but at the least it means something to me.

The simple question if god had ordered you to behead your own son or brother or mother the people you love and cherish like he did so command Abraham? This is an important question for me as its why I lost my faith and the answer for me is a dead No!

[Umar001]

Kyubi, english is not my mother tongue, please try and construct your points clearly for me.

Except this isn't some test where all you have to lose is a bad score and a flunking grade this is life this is existence. If someone can just "throw red herrings" in the way of people's very life's as if there existence is a contrived and insignificant, meaningless other then to suffer and please some higher being in knowledge that he succeeded in creating a race in his own image.

This is where your seemingly confused. I don't even know where to beging.

It doesn't seem like you make a point to be answered or a point which entails discussion, 'as if there existance is a contrived and insignificant, meaningless other then to suffer and please some higher being..' It seems that you have yourself come to this conclusion. So I don't see where the discussion can go.

I will say that, there are tests, and that there is help to pass those tests, and it is simple, you don't seem to take the teachings of the Qu'ran. You have a presumption that is not established.

We want to discuss this God, well let us see what He is like,

We know that

Allah bears no burden more than it can bare.

We also know that if a person keeps patient then Allah will make ways for him out of places he didnt even think of.

We know that Allah guides those who want to be guided,

That He responds to prayers,

That He multiplies the right answers/good deeds of the people and gives them good deeds if they were gonna do something bad but didnt.

Furthermore, your logic is not that great, let us think of it this way, God gives us tools, then he lets us use them and then gives us rewards for what good we do. So we are being paid while in reality we had no right to be paid. That is Mercy.

It doesn't make sense how people can throw away each other's value, the value of there life the value of there own brothers and sisters there mother and father the people they cherish into a fire for some zeal or doctrine that may or may not be true. And please don't answer with "only through god can we find value" perplexing questions isn't the same as answering them.

Let me ask you then, what is value, how can we define value, the value of something?

With all do respect that creeps me out and in no way am I insulting anything it is the very truth of the matter its why I have to some degree lost my faith in Islam and in religion in general. How the creator can just treat us mankind or Jinn as if were sheep insignificant like meaningless insects. If a creator is that devoid of love and compassion for to ever see something from our point of view from our circumstance what our choices are and how we feel is beyond him.

The above like most this seems like its in codes. I don't know what logic your using but it is shameballs. We have a Creator, He gives us our memory and then rewards us for memorising Qu'ran, He gives us money and then rewards us for giving charity, He gives us our minds and then rewards us for using it, He gives us our families and the rewards us for being kind to them and respecting them. And that is not Mercy? He rejoices at our repentance and listens to our prayers, being closer to us then our veins, yet this is not the care of someone?

The list could go on and on. If you have problems with the description of God in other places then thats that, but if you specifically want to discuss the description of God in Islam and say He is unfair then I will have to disagree.

Regards,

Eesa.

[Talha777]

Ibliss is the Jinn who disobeyed Allah's command to prostrate to Adam (as), and was consequently expelled from Heaven. Allah had promised him eternal Hell, but he had asked Allah to give him time before going to Hell to win over Adam's descendants as their followers. Allah had granted him time, and Ibliss has worked towards the destruction of mankind ever since...

And so ends reason and the logic of faith. To clarify, Allah the omnipotent the benevolent being that he is or is said to be has allowed the Shiyatan who has become a mortal enemy of mankind (who for the only course being malice towards us is because Allah created man and effectively brushed off the jinn as a failed race) to **** and cause strife and torment upon us on the whims of a request..

This saddens me, is this the result of our creation fleeting ****ation both the heavens and hell competing to bring man into a burning abode.

Good evening, Mr. Kyubi,

I will humbly attempt to answer your question.

First of all, Allah Tala is All-Knowing, He knows our actions and even the thoughts within our mind. He knows what has happened in the past and what will happen in the future. Allah Tala created Iblis knowing full well he will try to lead mankind astray. In fact, all of this is the plan of Allah. You should read the Holy Quran and understand the theme and message of Islam. This following verse is very important:

وَلاَ يَحْسَبَنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ أَنَّمَا نُمْلِي لَهُمْ خَيْرٌ لِّأَنفُسِهِمْ إِنَّمَا نُمْلِي لَهُمْ لِيَزْدَادُواْ إِثْمًا وَلَهْمُ عَذَابٌ مُّهِينٌ

Let not the Unbelievers think that our respite to them is good for themselves: We grant them respite that they may grow in their iniquity: But they will have a shameful punishment. [Quran 3:178]

So the granting of respite to the disbelievers, including Satan, is part of the plan of Allah. This is so that when Allah descends His wrath upon the disbelievers, it has a great inspiration effect for the Believers who can take an important object lesson and also be assured that no matter how high man can go in life, ultimately, Allah can shatter all of our accomplishment and utterly destroy us. This is to show us that we should never be proud of ourselves in what we have accomplished. We should constantly be grateful to Allah and be humble before Him. We should attribute all of our blessings to Allah alone, He alone is our King, and He alone is worthy of our worship.

We human beings are not Angels. Unlike them, we have free will. This means that we have the freedom to obey or disobey Allah. So if we obey Him, than we are definitely deserving of a reward and higher rank than Angels (Which is why Allah commanded them to prostrate before Adam (alaihi salam)). Similarly, if we disobey Allah, it is because Satan has tempted us (not compelled us), and therefore we are deserving of punishment.

The simple question if god had ordered you to behead your own son or brother or mother the people you love and cherish like he did so command Abraham? This is an important question for me as its why I lost my faith and the answer for me is a dead No!

A true Believer is willing to sacrifice the lives of his children and other loved ones, including his own life, for the sake of Allah. Allah Tala commanded Hazrat Nabi Ibrahim (alaihi salam) to sacrifice his first son for the sake for Allah. Hazrat Nabi Ibrahim (alaihi salam) was a man of exceptional piety and possessed an exalted status among mankind. Being a man of firm faith and conviction in Allah, he put his trust in the Almighty and did not even question his Master. He unhesitatingly was willing to sacrifice his only son. This is an object lesson to all. We should all strive to have the faith of Hazrat Nabi Ibrahim (alaihi salam) and be willing to sacrifice anything and everything, including our very own lives, for His sake and His cause.

[Alexius]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is a Jinn? I've been studying Islam for a longtime, but I still don't know what a Jinn is...

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:-[

[Kyubi]

It doesn't seem like you make a point to be answered or a point which entails discussion, 'as if there existance is a contrived and insignificant, meaningless other then to suffer and please some higher being..' It seems that you have yourself come to this conclusion. So I don't see where the discussion can go.

Religion is very much the same way. Its impossible to have discussion with Zeal or Doctrine.

We know that

Allah bears no burden more than it can bare.

We also know that if a person keeps patient then Allah will make ways for him out of places he didnt even think of.

We know that Allah guides those who want to be guided,

That He responds to prayers,

That He multiplies the right answers/good deeds of the people and gives them good deeds if they were gonna do something bad but didnt.

You know? Or you believe. It seems here you already have a set belief of god I however have come to realize and question the character of God in his persona; Christianity, Islam, Jewduism.

Let me ask you then, what is value, how can we define value, the value of something?

Value to me is the people I cherish the people who I love and hold dear, thats value. Its seeing the smiles of my brothers there laughter there happiness, its the friendship that I share with others. The connection we have knowing that togther we would go through whatever struggle comes our way. That is what value is and its these people that I would sacrifice my very life to protect.

The above like most this seems like its in codes.

Is it? The bible, the quran the testiment they all seem to be in codes as well

We have a Creator, He gives us our memory and then rewards us for memorising Qu'ran, He gives us money and then rewards us etc etc

And to that we hold him as a creator, I did not say he is false, he's very much true. True to himself and to his ambition, but to us? Ive given you the account of what happened and to your religion its held true to the facts and history so what is there then that should contend, its sound judgment. God created Jinn, God Discards Jinn, God creates Man, God breaks his law of worshiping only Allah and commands Shaytan to prostrate to the father of man,God casts out Jinn; Man and Jinn are left to bear the brunt of Gods tantrum.

[Kyubi]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is a Jinn?

It’s a discarded being. A creation left Roth and snuffed of whatever value they possessed. In essence they are Devils but not in the way they are in Christianity. In Islam these "Devils" are an outcast race of creatures made of fire and other elements.

[Zone Maker]

It’s a discarded being. A creation left Roth and snuffed of whatever value they possessed. In essence they are Devils but not in the way they are in Christianity. In Islam these "Devils" are an outcast race of creatures made of fire and other elements.

Shows how little you know about Islam

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...6455-jinn.html

:w:

[Kyubi]

Shows how little you know about Islam

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...6455-jinn.html

What a good refuter you are for pointing that out, especially since the thread you linked to us pretty much reflects what I have described thus far:

And the Jinn He did create of a smokeless flame of fire
There is no doubt that the Jinn were created before mankind
This verse clearly states that the Jinn were created before mankind
If one is mentioning the evil ones that antagonise humans they are called Shaitan etc etc...

Alexius would you like more information in detail? Whatever the case always remember draw your own conclusion believe in god but most of all believe in yourself

[AbuAbdallah]

"It’s a discarded being. A creation left Roth and snuffed of whatever value they possessed. In essence they are Devils but not in the way they are in Christianity. In Islam these "Devils" are an outcast race of creatures made of fire and other elements."

Jinns are beings made from fire. They are unseen to humans. Some are Muslim while others are kaafirs. They speak different languages. Some will go to heaven some will go to hell.

[Kyubi]

Jinns are beings made from fire. They are unseen to humans. Some are Muslim while others are kaafirs. They speak different languages. Some will go to heaven some will go to hell.

pretty much reflects what I have described thus far

But of course I can understand that you would miss the point, its not hard for you to just label them in what is a constrained doctrine. Jinn are more then just the monsters or demons religion tends to paint them as. So its sad because Jinn are either "evil demons" or creatures to "marry" to most deluded people.

[snakelegs]

And so ends reason and the logic of faith.

faith requires no logic.

[Kyubi]

No not even faith can escape logic,

Everything needs logic, its fundamental. If something is to be then its logic is to be. Faith isn't completely blind.

[shible]

No not even faith can escape logic,

Everything needs logic, its fundamental. If something is to be then its logic is to be. Faith isn't completely blind.

yes i agree the part that everything needs a logic.

but have you ever had any idea where this sense of reasoning came to you.

do u have a logic to explain your sense of reasoning.

do u think that those who did great research in Islam not even had a slightest idea or not even had a thought like what you had. if there were just one or two people then i would claim you are right for some extent.

But you know for about 1000 years there where many researchers who tried to prove the thought that what Islam say's is incorrect

But do you know what happened indeed they all realized that they were only experiencing the Darkness in this world and also submitted that Islam is the Light and the Only cure.

Haven't you noticed it.

If the question was to discover Islam then i am sure that your heart and Brain can realize the true answers.

If the question was just to Provoke or Drag Islam then i am sorry My friend not even the Best evidence in the world can clear your Doubts

But instead it would be the wish of our Creator to decide your Fate

It's not like that but instead they

[AbuAbdallah]

But of course I can understand that you would miss the point, its not hard for you to just label them in what is a constrained doctrine. Jinn are more then just the monsters or demons religion tends to paint them as. So its sad because Jinn are either "evil demons" or creatures to "marry" to most deluded people.

What is your point? Are you upset that Allah created some jinn as evil beings?

[Kyubi]

do u have a logic to explain your sense of reasoning.

I already have in ABC fashion look at what ive said thus far and then contemplate, already then you would be using reason.

do u think that those who did great research in Islam not even had a slightest idea or not even had a thought like what you had. if there were just one or two people then i would claim you are right for some extent.

But you know for about 1000 years there where many researchers who tried to prove the thought that what Islam say's is incorrect

Your getting out of context, is your question; Can man go through a thousand years of blindness?

But do you know what happened indeed they all realized that they were only experiencing the Darkness in this world and also submitted that Islam is the Light and the Only cure.

Must you drag me in this debate :)

Are you talking about conversion? I acknowledge it is a natural phenomenon of religion. Any one can see the "light" that’s the purpose of doctrine.

What is your point? Are you upset that Allah created some jinn as evil beings?

Maybe you should instead look at the first page it will elaborate on the discussion.

But instead it would be the wish of our Creator to decide your Fate

I am indeed frightened. And that was not sarcasm but more reason to logic. You can’t force love or submission through fear only drive it away and bring loath instead.

[snakelegs]

No not even faith can escape logic,

Everything needs logic, its fundamental. If something is to be then its logic is to be. Faith isn't completely blind.

belief requires no logic - it's belief and it is a completely different system than logic.

[shible]

I am sorry for not responding at the earliest.

well I was a bit rude on my previous words.

yet i can help anyone who would wish to have an answer for a question at Primary level.

In case if it goes in depth then i am not the right guy since i am still exploring Islam.

You may contact the Appropriate master's in this or you could also browse through a few Lectures and debates of Dr. Zakir Naik or Sheikh Ahmed Hussein Deedat.

since they have discussed many issues in Public before thousands of people.

I am sure you will get your answers

[Zone Maker]

What a good refuter you are for pointing that out, especially since the thread you linked to us pretty much reflects what I have described thus far:

Show an evidence to back up your claim that jinns are an outcast race.

PS: Stop generalizing when we talk about bad jinns.

:w:

[Muezzin]

Kinda just sounds like angsty whining to me, to be honest. Like: 'Wah wah, there is evil and it makes my life hard'.

As Rocky Balboa said 'It ain't about how hard you hit, it's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward'

'ADRIAN!'

[AbuAbdallah]

Maybe you should instead look at the first page it will elaborate on the discussion.

Why shouldn't we? If the Jinn can be so easily brushed aside by a creator who claims to be all loving to all his creations and not considering how the Jinn might feel about becoming a byproduct of man then we to can easily one day be brushed away and find out that all of our sacrifices were meaningless

Your complaint was that Jinn were brushed aside, and you were already proved wrong...so what are you trying to prove here exactly???

[Umar001]

Religion is very much the same way. Its impossible to have discussion with Zeal or Doctrine.

Well whatever else is the same does not matter, if you cannot discuss then thats cool, no matter if every other guy is the same as that.

You know? Or you believe. It seems here you already have a set belief of god I however have come to realize and question the character of God in his persona; Christianity, Islam, Jewduism.

Your confused again, I was presenting the concept of God in Islam, so according to Islamic belief, we know the above Characteristics. Whether the Islamic belief is true is a different matter. So please try to keep up, similarly, according to the Christian belief we know that God has a Son.

Did I say the belief is true? No. Rather let me repeat myself for you:

If you have problems with the description of God in other places then thats that, but if you specifically want to discuss the description of God in Islam and say He is unfair then I will have to disagree.

Regards,

Eesa.

Value to me is the people I cherish the people who I love and hold dear, thats value. Its seeing the smiles of my brothers there laughter there happiness, its the friendship that I share with others. The connection we have knowing that togther we would go through whatever struggle comes our way. That is what value is and its these people that I would sacrifice my very life to protect.

Why do you cherish and hold those people dear?

Is it? The bible, the quran the testiment they all seem to be in codes as well

Well if you feel they are in codes then how could you understand them or what they claim G-d to be, or do you just not. If you'd like an help decoding them please ask :)

And to that we hold him as a creator, I did not say he is false, he's very much true. True to himself and to his ambition, but to us? Ive given you the account of what happened and to your religion its held true to the facts and history so what is there then that should contend, its sound judgment. God created Jinn, God Discards Jinn, God creates Man, God breaks his law of worshiping only Allah and commands Shaytan to prostrate to the father of man,God casts out Jinn; Man and Jinn are left to bear the brunt of Gods tantrum.

Well your mistaken. For example, you claim God discards Jinn. Provide evidence, the Qu'ran speaks differently,

72:01
SHAKIR: Say: It has been revealed to me that a party of the jinn listened, and they said: Surely we have heard a wonderful Quran,
72:02
SHAKIR: Guiding to the right way, so we believe in it, and we will not set up any one with our Lord:

And

72:13
SHAKIR: And that when we heard the guidance, we believed in it; so whoever believes in his Lord, he should neither fear loss nor being overtaken (by disgrace):
72:14
SHAKIR: And that some of us are those who submit, and some of us are the deviators; so whoever submits, these aim at the right way:

With regards to G-d breaking His law, then you certainly have no knowledge, you see, postration as a sign of respect was allowed.

Furthermore, it is upto mankind to follow the guidance, if they do that then they will have peace in this world and peace in the hereafter. Many feel much more joy in this world than pain, and furthermore the people that feel pain are going to have such joy that they will not regard the pain as anything!!

{The most miserable man in the world of those meant for Paradise will be dipped once in Paradise. Then he will be asked, “Son of Adam, did you ever face any misery? Did you ever experience any hardship?” So he will say, “No, by God, O Lord! I never faced any misery, and I never experienced any hardship.”} Narrated in Saheeh Muslim, #2807

Anyhow the topic is more than amazing, seems like you have a personal grudge and want to take it out on God.

[NoName55]

belief requires no logic - it's belief and it is a completely different system than logic.

:sl:
If you mean in matters pertaining to Islaam, then I beg to differ. Without logic it will be blind faith that would lead to blind taqleed, and taqleedy I can never be!

:w:

[snakelegs]

:sl:
If you mean in matters pertaining to Islaam, then I beg to differ. Without logic it will be blind faith that would lead to blind taqleed, and taqleedy I can never be!

:w:

i understand what you are saying, but as a person of no religion, i view all religions as belief systems which may or may not be true.
once you adopt the islamic beliefs, (which are true for you), then it is quite possible to use your intellect and logic in the pursuit of better and deeper understanding the religion - and here is where taqleed would be frowned upon. one of the things i like about islam, is that it encourages learning.

[Allah-creation]

you say you cherish your family and friends, yet you are not greatful to god for creating them.

[Kyubi]

First lets get all the flame baiting out of the way;

Kinda just sounds like angsty whining to me, to blah blah etc etc...

There's no need to throw around insults, I can just as easily as yourself bicker and say "All of you muslims sound like 15 year old high school girls going through there period, calm down! Gosh!" But that would do nothing but make me look like an idiot I just hope you would follow suit if your going to take in this discussion.

Now on to more reputable members.

Show an evidence to back up your claim that jinns are an outcast race.

The knowledge of jinns is orthodox, as they are mentioned several times in the Quran.

Iam sorry I thought you were a Muslim. Well In any case you can look in the Quran find out for yourself or ask around everyone here knows the fundamental story of Jinn and their contrived place in the universe.
The knowledge of jinn’s is orthodox, they are mentioned several times in the Quran.

In Surah Al-Araf: it has been expressly stated that man was created out of clay and jinn out of fire.

In Surah Al Hijr: 27, it has been said that the jinn had been created before man. The same thing is testified by the story of Adam and Iblis, which has been told at seven different places in the Qur'an, and at every place it confirms that Iblis was already there at the creation of man. Moreover, in surah Al-Kahf: 50, it has been stated that Iblis belonged to the jinn.

Al-Baqarah: 50 show that Allah has entrusted man with the vicegerency (spelling?) of the earth and that God has decreed man was superior to the jinn. Although the jinn also have been given certain extraordinary powers and abilities an example of which is found in An-Naml 39, yet the animals likewise have been given some powers greater than man.


From these details, it becomes abundantly clear that the jinn have their own objective existence and are a concealed creation of an entirely different species from man. And because of their mysterious qualities, ignorant people have formed exaggerated notions and concepts about them. Such as possession. So no iam afraid man's insanity is his own.

Your confused again, I was presenting the concept of God in Islam, so according to Islamic belief, we know the above Characteristics. Whether the Islamic belief is true is a different matter. So please try to keep up, similarly, according to the Christian belief we know that God has a Son.

Did I say the belief is true? No. Rather let me repeat myself for you:

Sorry but I think your confused, I said God's persona, not what his context is in each religion. And again no you don't know, you believe. Whether islam is true or not is irralavent in this case. Its a question of faith, what is faith. Figure out what your talking about and Contemplate that.

Why do you cherish and hold those people dear?

While its understandable that such things are beyond you people, I have hope. Read again

Well if you feel they are in codes then how could you understand them or what they claim G-d to be, or do you just not. If you'd like an help decoding them please ask

Iam quiet fine, thank you though.:)

Many feel much more joy in this world than pain, and furthermore the people that feel pain are going to have such joy that they will not regard the pain as anything!!

Everyone feels pain and everyone suffers one loss or onther. We are all stricken with a grief that pierces our hearts like an infliction. Its this world that was created for us, its our punishment for such a petty crime as taking a fruit. God may not have wanted us to remain in paradise as was said God is Omniscience and placed the forbidden fruit not to tempt us but to convict us of the so called crime he knew would happen. But in this life at least there are family and friends those people you love, try as we like we can never be free of the pain but the people you cherish can sometimes take some of that anguish away.

With regards to G-d breaking His law, then you certainly have no knowledge, you see, postration as a sign of respect was allowed.

By whose creed? Yours. Don't be foolish; excuses can be made for just about everything especially religion. That’s why this stigma is held on long as it has. Every time there's a challenge religion will simply opt for the thousand different possible answers there are. Example; how can it be Monotheism if you believe Jesus was the Son of God? The answer: "Because Jesus is God2!" :mmokay:

So then now Shaitan is forced to show respect, you cant force respect even if he did neel it will be nothing more then a mummers farse. God should have known that.

Anyhow the topic is more than amazing, seems like you have a personal grudge and want to take it out on God.

Iam not going to even answer that.

you say you cherish your family and friends, yet you are not greatful to god for creating them.

Who said I wasn't grateful.

[Allah-creation]

Hatered and disapprovel of god's actions is your way of being greatful. You seem to feel sorrow for jinns, than you must know that the muslims among jinn will enter paradise.

[Umar001]

The knowledge of jinns is orthodox, as they are mentioned several times in the Quran.

So Jinns are another creation who have also the ability to believe in God and be good or bad and have been craeted to worship God just like humans, according to Islam.

Sorry but I think your confused, I said God's persona, not what his context is in each religion. And again no you don't know, you believe. Whether islam is true or not is irralavent in this case. Its a question of faith, what is faith. Figure out what your talking about and Contemplate that.

Lets look at this, we are discussing God's persona, different religions say God is different in some ways. So I said let us look at the Islamic view of God, so then I said we know in islamic belief God is such and such.. whether God is really like that is not the dicussion but rather we are just using the Islamic view of God.

While its understandable that such things are beyond you people, I have hope. Read again

Break it down to me! since it is understandable that such a thing is beyond my people then I dont think its worth reading again, just explain it to me. :)

By whose creed? Yours. Don't be foolish; excuses can be made for just about everything especially religion. That’s why this stigma is held on long as it has. Every time there's a challenge religion will simply opt for the thousand different possible answers there are. Example; how can it be Monotheism if you believe Jesus was the Son of God? The answer: "Because Jesus is God2!" :mmokay:

Your not being logical, you see, how do I derive at the opinion that postrating is not an act of worship, why dont you ask me that instead of just saying it is my creed?

You can throw a smokescreen by saying 'Everytime there's a challange religion will simply opt for the thousand different..' or you can be objective and see for yourself if such a view is possible to be held.

If a christian told me Jesus is God i'd say show me that in the Bible. I hope that's not an ability you lack.

[Zone Maker]

The knowledge of jinns is orthodox, as they are mentioned several times in the Quran.

Iam sorry I thought you were a Muslim. Well In any case you can look in the Quran find out for yourself or ask around everyone here knows the fundamental story of Jinn and their contrived place in the universe.
The knowledge of jinn’s is orthodox, they are mentioned several times in the Quran.

In Surah Al-Araf: it has been expressly stated that man was created out of clay and jinn out of fire.

In Surah Al Hijr: 27, it has been said that the jinn had been created before man. The same thing is testified by the story of Adam and Iblis, which has been told at seven different places in the Qur'an, and at every place it confirms that Iblis was already there at the creation of man. Moreover, in surah Al-Kahf: 50, it has been stated that Iblis belonged to the jinn.

Believe it or not I am a Muslim.

It seems you are the one who is confused.
The jinn were created before man so what????????????
Did you know that Hitler belonged to the human race?When Iblis is a sinner and an outcast you made the whole jinn race the same thing what kind of logic are you using here.
Why don’t you use the same logic on human stories mentioned on Quran.

Al-Baqarah: 50 show that Allah has entrusted man with the vicegerency (spelling?) of the earth and that God has decreed man was superior to the jinn. Although the jinn also have been given certain extraordinary powers and abilities an example of which is found in An-Naml 39, yet the animals likewise have been given some powers greater than man.

The first is superior which makes the others automatically an outcast. Why don’t you have some pity on angels too?
So you see things only in black and white.

From these details, it becomes abundantly clear that the jinn have their own objective existence and are a concealed creation of an entirely different species from man. And because of their mysterious qualities, ignorant people have formed exaggerated notions and concepts about them. Such as possession. So no iam afraid man's insanity is his own.

So let's see the conclusion is: being different from humans, having special powers and because one bad jinn of the whole race disobeyed Allah the race is now an outcast.
Oh boy it seems I have to study formal logic again.
Do you really think you have proved your point?
And please try to answer the verses mentioned by Al-Habeshi.

:w:

[Kyubi]

Hatered and disapprovel of god's actions is your way of being greatful. You seem to feel sorrow for jinns, than you must know that the muslims among jinn will enter paradise.

What Hatred? Disapproval maybe. Grateful for this world for the pain the strife the misery we will have to endure for the enjoyment of the heavens, yes Iam certainty grateful. But I wish for more, I know there is better then this.

Realize whether he (God) set out to create the universe as a "testing" ground for who will enter heaven or not has become irrelevant. This world has become more then that, we have become more then what we were from initial creation. We have a free will- and if you use static logic you will realize that with free will comes Change. When we developed the love and compassion for the ones we cherish is when we broke free of the shell that bound us to his (god) purpose. We are the arbiters of our own destiny and this is now our world and our lives, the reins of fate belong to us.

The fact that there are people like me who would leave the flock of sheep in search of there own purpose is a testament to mans superior free will and why we deserve to be a free race and why we do not belong bound to the heavens.

So Jinns are another creation who have also the ability to believe in God and be good or bad and have been craeted to worship God just like humans, according to Islam.

And like the few I to believe in Allah and worshiped God. We worship god because we fear him, and the sad fact is the only reason any man worships Allah is because we fear him or fear worse.

Lets look at this, we are discussing God's persona, different religions say God is different in some ways. So I said let us look at the Islamic view of God, so then I said we know in islamic belief God is such and such.. whether God is really like that is not the dicussion but rather we are just using the Islamic view of God.

And which is irrelevant again to the point in case I was simply mentioning to you that you believed not knew.

Your not being logical, you see, how do I derive at the opinion that postrating is not an act of worship, why dont you ask me that instead of just saying it is my creed?

I did, and I can do without the "your confused, you not being logical, your a homosapian etc etc" :)

You can throw a smokescreen by saying 'Everytime there's a challange religion will simply opt for the thousand different..' or you can be objective and see for yourself if such a view is possible to be held.

It wasn't a smokescreen but in fact the "Objective" point in the case. Was your answer that "prostrating is a sign of respect" a "smokescreen"? Do you know this for certain have you learned or read somewhere where I can see this for myself?

a christian told me Jesus is God i'd say show me that in the Bible. I hope that's not an ability you lack.

I have plenty of times, but the question is often dodged for what I have already mentioned the thousand different possible answers or excuses.

The fact of the matter is the question in the first post is yet unanswered.

[Allah-creation]

Kyubi, you remind me of Iblis. You believe there is no god but Allah, but you disapprove his action. God's action are sometiems beyond our reasoning, those who challenge it are among the ignorant, like Iblis. Yes, there are hardship in this world, but can you live without air, food, water. I believe the blessing exceeds the hardships.

[Kyubi]

Because I disapprove of Allah's action I am like Azazeel, nonsense if it was I in Iblis's position I would have just simply Kneeled to Adam and pleased god rather then be righteous and not commit to sin. Because that’s what’s more important isn't it, pleasing god.

[Kyubi]

Because I disapprove of Allah's action I am like Azazeel, nonsense if it was I in Iblis's position I would have just simply kneeled to Adam and pleased god rather then be righteous and not commit to sin. Because that’s what’s more important isn't it, pleasing god.

[Muezzin]

First lets get all the flame baiting out of the way;

There's no need to throw around insults, I can just as easily as yourself bicker and say "All of you muslims sound like 15 year old high school girls going through there period, calm down! Gosh!" But that would do nothing but make me look like an idiot I just hope you would follow suit if your going to take in this discussion.

Now on to more reputable members.

Easy, tiger. Sorry if that offended you.

And you mean "their" not "there". And "you're", not "your". And you probably need an "and" or a period/full stop after "idiot". Happens to the best of us, mate.

I do think you're getting a bit ad hominem though. The point I was ironically trying to make is that there is no use in simply complaining about hardship, which is how I interpreted your post. You just have to move on and roll with the punches as it were. Of course, I could have just misinterpreted your post.

[Muslim Knight]

Because I disapprove of Allah's action I am like Azazeel, nonsense if it was I in Iblis's position I would have just simply kneeled to Adam and pleased god rather then be righteous and not commit to sin. Because that’s what’s more important isn't it, pleasing god.

God created us and gave us sense of being, the feeling of being alive and many things more. He even created the air molecules so that we can breathe in that sweet oxygen. How else can we ever repay those debts? He didn't even ask for our money, but rather it is He who provided us with our lot.

For the Muslims, obeying & pleasing God is the only natural way of showing our gratitude to our Creator.

[Allah-creation]

The real sin is disobeying Allah, it is Allah who decide what is sin or good deed. Don't forget that it was Allah who made the law that prostrating to anyother being except Allah is a sin. Therefor, it is only Allah who can change that law.

[Kyubi]

Easy, tiger. Sorry if that offended you.

And you mean "their" not "there". And "you're", not "your". And you probably need an "and" or a period/full stop after "idiot". Happens to the best of us, mate.

I do think you're getting a bit ad hominem though. The point I was ironically trying to make is that there is no use in simply complaining about hardship, which is how I interpreted your post. You just have to move on and roll with the punches as it were. Of course, I could have just misinterpreted your post.

You didn't offend me by all means you simply made a mockery of yourself and I opted to correct it before it led to flaming in my thread.

Oh and Iam sorry if my grammar isn't as divine as yours. Not all of us have the energy to copy and paste into Microsoft word like a few here. Oh and its spelled "homonym" :)

no use in simply complaining about hardship

That’s your opinion and you have the freedom of will to be entitled to it.

He didn't even ask for our money

I should like to hope not

For the Muslims, obeying & pleasing God is the only natural way of showing our gratitude to our Creator.

It is isn't it. Well what a wonderful truth, however its not the natural course its what were bound to. Try as we like we will never be released of that debt just as we may never breath life without "his" air we will never be free.

The real sin is disobeying Allah, it is Allah who decide what is sin or good deed.

Ah, yes. Again the "One thousand possible answers" has reared itself. Its as I said religion and god will always contradict themselves whenever they find it convenient to do so. It’s the sign of a being that is in great conflict with himself. Opt for the truth and find courage in your heart to reject what you know deep down is wrong.

[Muslim Knight]

It is isn't it. Well what a wonderful truth, however its not the natural course its what were bound to. Try as we like we will never be released of that debt just as we may never breath life without "his" air we will never be free.

Hey I have mentioned in my earlier post so don't take out of context and out of convenience. We are not asked to repay anything, it is beyond our ability to repay the Supreme Being, and He knows this. All that is being asked is the obedience to do certain good things and to abandon certain evil things. How hard can that be?

Some of us may have been bad but then again we are given chance to repent and have been told numerous times that the One who is Full of Loving Kindness, can and will accept our sincere repentance and forgive us.

Christians always mention about God's love towards us, His creations. What about this? God loves us so much that He created us out opf nothing, gives us that sense of self, not asking us to repay that debt, but instead tells us to be good and remember Him and do not do evil unto our own selves and others. Simple math!! No debt!

If all else fails and we purposely want to do evil and destruction unto others, what rights do we have but evil and destruction also which Hell is the most fitting end for such individuals?

[Muslim Knight]

Here's a challenge to you Kyubi, if you think God needs or not of your approval. In the Quran, there's a challenge for the non-believer to create a single fly out of nothing. If you think you can answer that challenge, please disapprove or approve God. I'm sure He's listening.

Don't use any of other fly which God created in order to achieve this task. Don't use any fly DNA extracted from any fly. Moreover, don't use molecules created by Him to create fly DNA. You must create your own molecules out of nothing. Give those molecules your own names if you wish, but you may not use names which have already been taken. Otherwise, you'd be accused of plagiarising things which God created.

You must cause the molecules to form the essential amino acids to provide the helix for the DNA structure and cause it to form cells which can later transform into the fly. You must not use implements or laboratories which are built using materials created by God. Do it yourself by your own sheer force of will.

If you can do this, you are god.

Oh, also, you must not use the universe which He created. Use your own. Create your own universe. Also, when doing so, please return that physical body and soul, they belong to God. Create your own body & soul.

If you can.

[Muezzin]

You didn't offend me by all means you simply made a mockery of yourself and I opted to correct it before it led to flaming in my thread.

Are you flirting with me?

But seriously, if you look at my other posts in the forum, you'll see I mock just about everything and don't really care how I look in the process.

Oh and Iam sorry if my grammar isn't as divine as yours. Not all of us have the energy to copy and paste into Microsoft word like a few here. Oh and its spelled "homonym" :)

I think you'll find the logical fallacy I was referring to was ad hominem. A homonym is a word form that has two distinct meanings. I know that's pedantic, but what the heck, it's educational and kind of funny.

And one doesn't need Microsoft Word to spell correctly...

That’s your opinion and you have the freedom of will to be entitled to it.

Thank you for being polite.

[Allah-creation]

Kyubi, your willing to go to hell just for one event ( Iblis prostrating to Adam) that you dont understand. Are you willing to leave Islam despite all the signs and blessing you know that Allah greated. Your selfish, you refuse to pray to god out of arrogance. All the sudden you put aside all the blessing and concluded god is unjust because of one event.

[Kyubi]

Kyubi, your willing to go to hell just for one event ( Iblis prostrating to Adam) that you dont understand. Are you willing to leave Islam despite all the signs and blessing you know that Allah greated. Your selfish, you refuse to pray to god out of arrogance. All the sudden you put aside all the blessing and concluded god is unjust because of one event.

I understand the event well and I know full well what could become of me. The Jinn to were rebellious and would not reform, although prophets were sent to reclaim them; they were eventually driven from the Earth and some taken prisoner others took refuge in the outer planes.

One of the Jinn named Azazeel (afterward mocked as the Iblees) was carried off as a prisoner by angels. He grew up among them and became their respected friend even though Azazeel should have realized such pitiful creatures were blind and without will unable to create from nothing what we call friendship, but when he refused to prostrate himself before Adam he was degraded to the condition of a sheytân (devil), cast out of heaven along with man he was forced to share paradise with adam and eve. Eventually he took his anger out on man by convincing eve to eat a forbidden fruit planted by Allah for the purpose of punishing us.

I can see just well here that Azazeel was a righteous being worthy of respect but because of Gods selfish self-purpose he was forced to commit sin and worse yet having realized Gods feelings for the Jinn he made the only choice that was left to him. I do not blame him nor attribute mans sins and madness to him or his race.

The "Whispers" that most people hear is not that of the Jinn but there selves it is there subconscious screaming what is concealed in man heart. A fear of God, contempt for his ignorant attitude towards us. But man will always bury and hide their desires for what they desire as truth. It’s not too difficult to let Azazeel bear our weight and sins it’s the nature of man.

You said one event? So then why has god condemned us for one single meaningless "event". To eat of the fruit is a sin and we did it out of ignorance yet Allah is too selfish to accept that his law is not absolute. God we ate the fruit because you created us with free will should you not be pleased that we do indeed have the will and conscience to decide for ourselves what is right and what is wrong. You bound that law on the fruit for no other purpose then to cast us into this earth, why.

Here's a challenge to you Kyubi, if you think God needs or not of your approval. In the Quran, there's a challenge for the non-believer to create a single fly out of nothing. If you think you can answer that challenge, please disapprove or approve God. I'm sure He's listening.

Don't use any of other fly which God created in order to achieve this task. Don't use any fly DNA extracted from any fly. Moreover, don't use molecules created by Him to create fly DNA. You must create your own molecules out of nothing. Give those molecules your own names if you wish, but you may not use names which have already been taken. Otherwise, you'd be accused of plagiarising things which God created.

You must cause the molecules to form the essential amino acids to provide the helix for the DNA structure and cause it to form cells which can later transform into the fly. You must not use implements or laboratories which are built using materials created by God. Do it yourself by your own sheer force of will.

If you can do this, you are god.

Ah to be god if an impossible opportunity presented itself I would take it. Unfortunately we are man, with haste we move through two short lives. Driven by base desires, bound and enslaved to the heavens.

Why must I become god? Is it necessary to create life to have life. We at the least have something God nor his angels will never have and that’s the love and friendship the bond we create from nothing with our fellow species. God could never befriend man only drive him into fear or worship. Tell me would any of you sacrifice your mother-father-siblings and friends for god? Would you forsake your humanity.

God loves us so much that He created us out opf nothing, gives us that sense of self, not asking us to repay that debt

Our debt is unpaid to God and for that we will continue to suffer. And what of Gods debt to us, how much blood has been spilled on this earth how many people have lost the breath of the air he created. When will these debts be paid, judgment day? We should like to hope so lest god should change his mind or force us into the position of the Jinn.

I fear God and I also love him I can't help it. But I also feel contempt for our grief and our sorrow that God will never understand. I wish God could love us back and understand us.

I do not love nor care for shaitan or his kin I just don't want to end up like them.

[Allah-creation]

the problem is you don't understand god's wisdom. You think you can judge everything with human limited mind. God cares and love us, everything he does, even if we don't understand it, we msut respect and believe in it.

[iqbal_soofi]

Ibliss is the Jinn who disobeyed Allah's command to prostrate to Adam (as), and was consequently expelled from Heaven. Allah had promised him eternal Hell, but he had asked Allah to give him time before going to Hell to win over Adam's descendants as their followers. Allah had granted him time, and Ibliss has worked towards the destruction of mankind ever since...

And so ends reason and the logic of faith. To clarify, Allah the omnipotent the benevolent being that he is or is said to be has allowed the Shiyatan who has become a mortal enemy of mankind (who for the only course being malice towards us is because Allah created man and effectively brushed off the jinn as a failed race) to **** and cause strife and torment upon us on the whims of a request..

This saddens me, is this the result of our creation fleeting ****ation both the heavens and hell competing to bring man into a burning abode.

Basically Iblees was created to worship Allah. He disobeyed Allah and refused to bow to the best creation of Allah on the plea that there's a defect in the creation of man. The man is prone to make mistakes (which Allah designed on purpose because man always learns from his mistakes). The second argument of Iblees was that no creation of Allah could be superior to that which worships Allah more. Therefore, Iblees according to himself was superior to man according to his argument. A superior shoouldn't bow to an iferrior. Therefore, he disobeyed Allah and pledged to misguide the human race for the entire life. Allah was sure that his best creation wouldn't be misled by the Iblees, so He let him loose. Iblees changed his appearance and mixed up in the human race. He's one who makes humans believe in his theory that those who do nothing but only worship Allah are the best people. All those who propagate theory and make themselves as worship leaders are not liked by wise human beings. Therore, no wise human want to make their children become the worship leaders. These leaders create nothing but fitnas and fasaad on earth, which is ultimate goal of Iblees.

[shible]

Basically Iblees was created to worship Allah. He disobeyed Allah and refused to bow to the best creation of Allah on the plea that there's a defect in the creation of man. The man is prone to make mistakes (which Allah designed on purpose because man always learns from his mistakes). The second argument of Iblees was that no creation of Allah could be superior to that which worships Allah more. Therefore, Iblees according to himself was superior to man according to his argument. A superior shoouldn't bow to an iferrior. Therefore, he disobeyed Allah and pledged to misguide the human race for the entire life. Allah was sure that his best creation wouldn't be misled by the Iblees, so He let him loose. Iblees changed his appearance and mixed up in the human race. He's one who makes humans believe in his theory that those who do nothing but only worship Allah are the best people. All those who propagate theory and make themselves as worship leaders are not liked by wise human beings. Therore, no wise human want to make their children become the worship leaders. These leaders create nothing but fitnas and fasaad on earth, which is ultimate goal of Iblees.

but the primary reason that Iblees refused was that he was created from Fire and man was created from Sand. That's why he refused.

I have heard this in Islamic lectures.

[Kyubi]

but the primary reason that Iblees refused was that he was created from Fire and man was created from Sand. That's why he refused.

That is a farse, but go ahead and lead yourself to believe it. Its as I said before "he and his race now were brushed aside by the creator they did so rever who now considers them nothing but a failure and if that wasn't enough now he's forced to bow and prostrate himself and devalue the very meaning of his existence. His reaction must have been more emotional when shaytan said he was better maybe he way trying to desperately hold on to what value was left in him. It could be he was heartbroken in the fire of the situation. Can a Jinn be heartbroken? I know what you would say why should we care but at the least it means something to me." Azaazel was not a fool nor was he some villain you would like to paint him as.

But I have no hope in opening your eyes so long as your heart is shut filled with ignorance."But man will always bury and hide their desires for what they desire as truth."

[Allah-creation]

kyubi, i am getting sick and tired of your arrogance. Whatever your trying to accomplish forget about it, go mislead yourself to hell for all i care.

[Umm Yoosuf]

:sl:

Since this discussion is not going anywhere

:threadclo