/* */

PDA

View Full Version : Why would G-d create pain?



rebelishaulman
03-13-2007, 10:45 AM
G-d created pain as the way to teach us these lessons because whether we learn these lessons or not is OUR CHOICE - not G-d's decision - it is a Bechirah decision whether we learn and improve. And G-d looked at the world and He saw that of all the infinite possible ways to create the opportunity to learn, people will respond positively and improve best if the lesson is taught through the medium of pain.

In other words, G-d said, "OK, people, your job is to learn lessons. Its your choice if you want to learn them or not, and I will teach them in the way that you will choose to learn them the most."

Then G-d looks into the world and sees what will happen if he teaches lessons in every conceivable way. He sees that people are going to ignore the lessons the LEAST if they are taught through the medium of pain.

So G-d says, "OK, you want it this way, that’s what you will get." Because not leaning the lesson, not doing teshuva, not getting a kapara, is worse than the pain. And if we would be on the level to respond to our sins without feeling pain, then we would not need it - but the reality is that people chose the method of G-d's running the world, since they do not reach high levels without being prodded by the pain.

Pain is also a punishment for wrongdoing. And there HAS to be pain as punishment because otherwise there would be no justice if people would just get away with doing bad - PLUS there would be no motivation for people to do good. SO pain is also a deterrent - and it is needed because people choose not to be deterred if there is no pain awaiting their bad choices.

If a person does a sin, the pain he receives is like a slap on the wrist compared to what he would have gotten in Olam Habah. When we get to Olam Habah and we see how many sins were erased because of pain we suffered in this world, the only question we are going to have is why didn’t Hashem give us more pain to erase more aveiros??

There is a Gemora Yerushalmi where Rabi Akiva meets Nachum Ish Gam Zu. Nachum is suffering and Rabi Akiva says "Woe to me that I see you like this." Nachum answers "Woe is to me that I do NOT see you like this!"

Rabi Akiva asks "Why are you cursing me?"

Nochum answers "And why are you rejecting suffering?"
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
IceQueen~
03-13-2007, 10:50 AM
Allah created pain so that we can appreciate comfort...inshaAllah

and Allah knows best
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
03-13-2007, 10:52 AM
Allah created pain because this lifes a test, we suppose to turn to him in moments of pain etc, wait for heaven if u dnt like pain.
Reply

Asyur an-Nagi
03-13-2007, 11:22 AM
in my world, Allah creates pain as the BIGGEST part of my job:p (i would be straightforward jobless if pain doesn't exist)
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
lyesh
03-13-2007, 11:23 AM
:sl:
think logic! without pain how'd we know if a part of our body is affected? :? how'd we know the inside of our body got a problem..? if it wasnt for pain... im sure we'd be lazy to show the doctor's! and all of a sudden our body would be suffering. its all for our good! and the above two posts shows good reasons. :)
Reply

Hashim_507
03-13-2007, 11:48 AM
This earth life is trial and test for mankind. Pain and suffering is part of the trial in worldy life. Allah created pain and suffering for reason in this world.
Reply

Joe98
03-13-2007, 12:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hashim
Allah created pain and suffering for a reason in this world.
When you receive pain you should rejoice in the gift from god.

You can my pain too if you want - I am having a sale today :D
Reply

Zulkiflim
03-13-2007, 12:28 PM
Salaam,

Pain....it is something that is common in humanity..

It teaches us that no matter what we think,,we are not beyong death or suffering..
Reply

lolwatever
03-13-2007, 12:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
When you receive pain you should rejoice in the gift from god.

You can my pain too if you want - I am having a sale today :D
For people who have a wider and more comprehensive field of view, pain in this life means less punishment in the hereafter if it is handled with patience and asking Allah for his mercy.

It's also something that encourages us to thank Allah for his numerous blessings and bounties when we are painless.

There's alot of wisdom behind these things that are easy to understand, and very easy to overlook.
Reply

rebelishaulman
03-13-2007, 08:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lyesh
:sl:
think logic! without pain how'd we know if a part of our body is affected? :? how'd we know the inside of our body got a problem..? if it wasnt for pain... im sure we'd be lazy to show the doctor's! and all of a sudden our body would be suffering. its all for our good! and the above two posts shows good reasons. :)
Logic? Pain can be more than from a physical blow.
Reply

don532
03-13-2007, 08:40 PM
Interesting post. Thank you all. Just wanted to share how I view pain and life's trials. Lots of people try to use the tired old argument about how God cannot love his creation because he allows pain and suffering.

Pain can be a direct result of our action, though not always immediate. We ask for it by our actions sometimes.
We also suffer as a direct result of the fall. We are a fallen creation as shown in the book of Genesis.
Suffering can be the learning of a lesson, though we may not always like the path to the lesson that needs to be learned.
We may also suffer due to Heavenly battles as shown in the book of Job.

The existence of these sources of pain does not mean God loves us any less or doesn't love us at all. I discipline my children for their own good.

Peace.
Reply

جوري
03-14-2007, 04:48 PM
It is the suffering that humanizes the soul... without it we would see images of others, starving children, or homeless and cold, jobless and poor and not feel anything... How could we if we don't have an emotion or an experience that would allow us to relate? Suffering is a part of the human condition... that should enable us to appreciate what it means to be human!
Reply

habibti4allah7
03-14-2007, 04:56 PM
allah created pain in order for us to appreciate happeniess. also he tests us to ee how strong we are.
Reply

- Qatada -
03-14-2007, 04:57 PM
:salamext:


This life has a mixture of both good emotions [i.e. joy] and sad emotions [i.e. pain.]

By having these experiences, we realise that we shouldn't be arrogant and disobedient to God, because it causes harm to ourselves and others. This pain is a taster to the reality of the hereafter.

When we taste happiness/joy in this world - we can reflect and imagine the eternal happiness of paradise.

When we taste pain/sadness/regret etc. we can reflect and imagine the sadness/pain/regret of the hellfire.
If we never had these tasters, we wouldn't strive to avoid to disobey God and His punishment, nor would we strive to gain His Mercy in order to enter His Paradise, which He has kept in store for His obedient servants.


If anyone questions, how can there be eternal joy in a paradise, or eternal sadness/regret etc in the hellfire - then we simply can say that if God can create a world with a mixture of the two in this world, then it is easy for Him to create the two extremes in the hereafter.

And Allaah Almighty knows best.
Reply

zaria
03-14-2007, 04:59 PM
Salaams,

I think its a test of faith, You can't by yourself relieve the pain but giving Allah (swt) the glory and praise and asking him to help relieve the pain will be a test of your faith in him. Allahu'Alim
Reply

paarsurrey
03-15-2007, 04:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by rebelishaulman
Pain is also a punishment for wrongdoing.
Hi
To me, pain is a forewarning for a bigger loss that would come to us if we do not take precautions.
Thanks

Reply

Grace Seeker
03-17-2007, 04:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lyesh
:sl:
think logic! without pain how'd we know if a part of our body is affected? :? how'd we know the inside of our body got a problem..? if it wasnt for pain... im sure we'd be lazy to show the doctor's! and all of a sudden our body would be suffering. its all for our good! and the above two posts shows good reasons. :)

format_quote Originally Posted by rebelishaulman
Logic? Pain can be more than from a physical blow.

I concure with Lyesh, I just don't think she went far enough with her logic. And most of the rest of the answers here don't even come close to addressing why, in his great wisdom, G-d would create pain. For instance, while it is true that having once experienced pain we may have a greater appreciation for joy and happiness; but it does not follow from that truth that it is therefore true that G-d created pain in order that we might enjoy happiness more. And pain may indeed be used as a punishment, but again it does not follow from that reality that it is therefore the reason that pain exists so that we may utilize it for the purpose of punishment.

Pain is a blessing to us from G-d. G-d created us in order to enjoy him, enjoy life, and enjoy fellowship with one another. We can only do that at its fullest if we are healthy. Unfortunately we now live in a fallen world and as such the world itself is sometimes unhealthy and this impacts us as well. We get sick. We injure ourselves. And pain tells us that this is going on.

I have a woman in my church who has lost the sense of feeling in her left foot. She must now be careful to observe with her eyes if she has cut it, bruised it, if it has an infection. She cannot feel pain and thus it is easy for her to let her foot become injured and unhealthy and continue right along with it getting worse because she has no pain. Before that, if she did something to injure it, the pain would right away tell her to stop whatever it was that was injuring her foot.

Now we experience pain in places other than our feet. We experience it in our hands, in our stomach, and in our emotions. Pain in our emotions tells us that perhaps there is something injuring a relationship. It could be a relationship with another person or our relationship with G-d himself. Whatever it is, once again pain tells us that we need to pay attention to what is hurt and correct it, rather than just moving on continuing to do damage to ourselves, our relationship, our very souls.

At whatever level we find it, pain is a warning that something is not right. We can ignore the pain, try to live with the pain, or listen to the pain. I suggest that we listen to our pain. It is G-d's gift to us so that we might be aware of things that are not as G-d intended them to be. By gifting us with pain, G-d has gifted us with the opportunity to not continue forever blithely down unhealthy paths of life that injure us, but to seek that which is right for both our body and our souls.
Reply

Keltoi
03-17-2007, 05:18 PM
The simplest answer for me is that pain tells a human being that something is wrong, whether through disease or illness, or emotionally and spiritually.
Reply

Trumble
03-17-2007, 05:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
The simplest answer for me is that pain tells a human being that something is wrong, whether through disease or illness, or emotionally and spiritually.
So why is pain sometimes far greater than is necessary for that purpose? Why is it sometimes so great that those with particular illnesses, such as some forms of cancer, long for death just so the unbearable pain will end? Why is mental pain so strong it will drive some to suicide? And where does deliberate infliction of pain fit in, such as torture? I don't see where the 'blessing' is in those cases

An omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent God would not have come up with pain and suffering as it can be in reality. As I find the thought of a malevolent God too horrible to contemplate, the only alternative is obvious.
Reply

Keltoi
03-17-2007, 05:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
So why is pain sometimes far greater than is necessary for that purpose? Why is it sometimes so great that those with particular illnesses, such as some forms of cancer, long for death just so the unbearable pain will end? Why is mental pain so strong it will drive some to suicide? And where does deliberate infliction of pain fit in, such as torture? I don't see where the 'blessing' is in those cases

An omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent God would not have come up with pain and suffering as it can be in reality. As I find the thought of a malevolent God too horrible to contemplate, the only alternative is obvious.
I usually don't attempt to explain what an omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent God would "come up with". To be human is to die....why would God create us to eventually die? Why is there cold weather? Why is there hot weather? Why do we have to drink water? It can go on forever. Pain is something human beings have to deal with.
Reply

vpb
03-17-2007, 05:51 PM
So why is pain sometimes far greater than is necessary for that purpose? Why is it sometimes so great that those with particular illnesses, such as some forms of cancer, long for death just so the unbearable pain will end? Why is mental pain so strong it will drive some to suicide? And where does deliberate infliction of pain fit in, such as torture? I don't see where the 'blessing' is in those cases

An omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent God would not have come up with pain and suffering as it can be in reality. As I find the thought of a malevolent God too horrible to contemplate, the only alternative is obvious.
do you think you have a perfect wisdom to know why God has created pain? there are things that our brains cannot percept , so we have no knowledge at all to ask "why god created this, and why that , and why that.." maybe for us it does not make sense or looks horrible but there could be a very smart reason for that.

in Islam there are "Why-s" ,but with logic, not for everything there is "why", bc a 'why' leads to another 'why' and that 'why' to another 'why' and you end up with the 'why' of Stero Spaces commiting suicide.
Reply

Trumble
03-17-2007, 06:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I usually don't attempt to explain what an omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent God would "come up with".
We come back to faith again, don't we?

To be human is to die....why would God create us to eventually die?
That I would have thought both Christians and muslims had an answer for. How could there be an after-life if life didn't end?

Pain is something human beings have to deal with.
Of course it is. There is the Buddhist path to escape it, of course, but that would take us woefully of topic!


format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
do you think you have a perfect wisdom to know why God has created pain?
Of course I don't. I don't believe there is a God and therefore that He created anything.

there are things that our brains cannot percept , so we have no knowledge at all to ask "why god created this, and why that , and why that.." maybe for us it does not make sense or looks horrible but there could be a very smart reason for that.
There may well be, but as an argument that carries no weight at all unless someone can suggest what that reason might actually be. Anything else, as I said, is 'just' faith. Or less kindly, in this particular instance, just avoiding the question because the obvious answer is inconvenient.
Reply

جوري
03-17-2007, 06:20 PM
^^^^^^ I'd love to hear of that Buddhist path to escape pain....Sounds intriguing

on a seperate note--- What is wrong with faith? or hope or dreams or anything non-visceral-- you make it sound like an abomination!
Reply

zoro
03-17-2007, 06:43 PM
Don't you mean "visceral"?
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-17-2007, 06:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
So why is pain sometimes far greater than is necessary for that purpose? Why is it sometimes so great that those with particular illnesses, such as some forms of cancer, long for death just so the unbearable pain will end? Why is mental pain so strong it will drive some to suicide? And where does deliberate infliction of pain fit in, such as torture? I don't see where the 'blessing' is in those cases

An omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent God would not have come up with pain and suffering as it can be in reality. As I find the thought of a malevolent God too horrible to contemplate, the only alternative is obvious.
Why do you say that the pain is far greater than is necessary? That is an assumption you have made which I am not so sure is actually true. Indeed it may be that the increased pain is a symptom of just how extremely out of kilter that one has become from what God intended for us.

But, even if we accept your premise, I'm not sure how that disproves anything with regard to G-d, which appears to be what you attempted to do with the statement. In a fallen world, why would we be surprised that even things that are meant by G-d to bless us are not also impacted by the fall.
Reply

vpb
03-17-2007, 06:45 PM
Trumble,
why would I want to spend time explaining you about such a thing , when you don't believe in God? it's just waste of time.

It's like me teaching kids about half-angle identities, when they have not learned yet about the basics of pythagorean theory.

When you understand the power and the wisdom of Allah swt, you will know what's going on.
Reply

جوري
03-17-2007, 06:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by zoro
Don't you mean "visceral"?
I mean (non)-----Viscera in medicine refers to an organism's internal organs. Non-Visceral as in non- organ related-- something you can grab with your hands... I am sure other meanings exist but that is the one I meant

peace!
Reply

Woodrow
03-17-2007, 07:00 PM
:sl:

As we grow older we make an amazing discovery about pain. It is not a curse and it is not an evil.

Pain is one of the best gifts Allah(swt) has granted us. It is an ideal teacher and protector. Strangely there is no physical thing called pain. It is a perception of an event. We could have been created without it and function quite well. There are many creatures that apparently do not experience pain. They do just fine.

However, because we do have the gift of pain we learn to avoid that which displeases AllaH(SWT) or that which can cause us harm. It is a prodding that guides us and helps us stay on the straight path. we do not understand how great of a gift it is until we reach the point of reduced ability to experience it.
Reply

Trumble
03-17-2007, 07:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
^^^^^^ I'd love to hear of that Buddhist path to escape pain....Sounds intriguing
That path, the Four Noble Truths, is what Buddhism is all about. You'll find the basics in my "Questions about Buddhism" thread, but you can just as easily find them (and rather better explained, maybe) via an internet search. It's a long-term process, though, not an analgesic! Pain and suffering is inevitable, although the right life and attitudes can reduce it, until we escape the realm of birth and rebirth.


on a seperate note--- What is wrong with faith? or hope or dreams or anything non-visceral-- you make it sound like an abomination!
Nothing at all; Buddhism relies on faith as much as any other religion. I had not intended my remarks to across like that, and apologise if they did. The point I was trying to make is that, there not being a satisfactory logical answer, a faith-based one was necessary to preserve belief in God as Christians and muslims perceive Him to be.


format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
why would I want to spend time explaining you about such a thing , when you don't believe in God? it's just waste of time.
How you spend your time is up to you, of course. I would say, though, that my disbelief in God is at least partially founded in that nobody can come up with (what I consider remotely) satisfactory answers to this question, or indeed the 'problem of evil' in general. If they could, I am sufficiently open minded to re-consider.


format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

But, even if we accept your premise, I'm not sure how that disproves anything with regard to G-d, which appears to be what you attempted to do with the statement. In a fallen world, why would we be surprised that even things that are meant by G-d to bless us are not also impacted by the fall.
'Disproves'? No, nothing either proves or disproves the existence of God; if it did we wouldn't be having this discussion. As to a "fallen world" that dips rather into areas of Christian theology I don't know enough about to comment sensibly on.
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-17-2007, 07:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
:sl:

As we grow older we make an amazing discovery about pain. It is not a curse and it is not an evil.

Pain is one of the best gifts Allah(swt) has granted us. It is an ideal teacher and protector. Strangely there is no physical thing called pain. It is a perception of an event. We could have been created without it and function quite well. There are many creatures that apparently do not experience pain. They do just fine.

However, because we do have the gift of pain we learn to avoid that which displeases AllaH(SWT) or that which can cause us harm. It is a prodding that guides us and helps us stay on the straight path. we do not understand how great of a gift it is until we reach the point of reduced ability to experience it.

Nice to see someone who is smart enough to agree with me. :D
Reply

جوري
03-17-2007, 07:19 PM
I think when it comes down to it --much of what we believe is theoretical and subjective! hence the term belief! ... whether Atheists, Buddhists, Sikhs, Jews or Muslims...Everyone will philosophize at some point-- I don't see a superiority conceptually of what some deem logical over let's say the so-called illogical explanations that are extracted from the Noble books! It is all subjective and Death is the final truth --the decider! We'll all know one way or the other then, either by being nothing or by being accountable!

Peace
Reply

vpb
03-17-2007, 07:21 PM
elhamdulilah Woodrow, fisebililah etc etc gave really good logical explanations.
Trumble, isn't it sufficient to you for all these logical answers that you got from them?

as I said, no matter how much people explain to you and bring explanations, you're not going to accept it, bc the problem is at the "belief in God". How can you accept something that God has created, when you don't accept God at all?

:) cheers.
Reply

Trumble
03-17-2007, 07:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
elhamdulilah Woodrow, fisebililah etc etc gave really good logical explanations. Trumble, isn't it sufficient to you for all these logical answers that you got from them?
No, because I don't consider the arguments convincing. That is no criticism of the posters involved, I have a huge respect for Woodrow in particular but I doubt even he would consider the points raised to be valid, sound, logical arguments. The issues have been considered for two millennia, if not longer, by people far brighter than any of us and they have never been able to come up with such an argument.

as I said, no matter how much people explain to you and bring explanations, you're not going to accept it, bc the problem is at the "belief in God". How can you accept something that God has created, when you don't accept God at all?
I'm not quite sure what you mean. I 'accept' pain and suffering, of course, they exist. To Buddhists, indeed, that existence fundamentally defines our own. If you are saying that a belief in God is necessary to understand why He (as a hypothetical entity) might have created anything I would disagree, although I don't see any route to argue either for or against that contention logically. It would be an interesting one for Ansar should he happen to drop by.
Reply

Hemoo
03-17-2007, 08:22 PM
well i want to say

who dares to ask Almighty Allah ? who dares to say to his creator why did you make so ??

i do not agree with that question

this is not bieng well-mannered with your creator and sustainer
Reply

snakelegs
03-17-2007, 08:51 PM
are there really answers to questions like this?
how to explain a baby screaming in pain because he has some horrible disease? a child in agony banging his head against the wall or rocking and crying in pain?
there are no explanations for this, why try?
Reply

zoro
03-17-2007, 10:22 PM
Purestambrosia: Your question and statement

What is wrong with faith? or hope or dreams or anything non-visceral – you make it sound like an abomination!
caused me to have a “double take”, because the common meaning for ‘visceral’ is

relating to deep inward feelings rather than to the intellect.
Thereby, I read your question as:

“What is wrong with faith or hope or dreams or anything [intellectual]?
which is not what I expected you meant -- and apparently not what you meant.

My response to the question that you addressed to Trumble (although Trumble obviously needs no help from me, but by responding, I can address a question that, in another thread, you asked me but I chose to deflect) would include the following points.

1. All animals (including humans) make visceral decisions (e.g., to duck when a projectile is coming at their heads).

2. Humans surpass the rest of the animals (as far as we know) in our intellectual abilities; therefore, for our continued survival, it would seem to be wise to use our intellectual capabilities to their fullest extent.

3. As a part of our intellectual capabilities, we generate faith, hopes, and dreams (or maybe better than ‘dreams’, ‘goals’, since I’m quite sure that my German shepherd also dreams!). In addition, though (and importantly), we can use our intellectual capabilities to evaluate our faiths, hopes, and goals, e.g., to see if they’re logical, to estimate probabilities that our hopes and goals can be achieved, to evaluate the evidence supporting our faiths to determine if confidence in them is justified, and so on.

Thus, I agree with Trumble that there’s nothing “wrong” with faith, hopes, goals, or anything visceral [usual meaning, including “emotions”], but I would argue that we should then apply our non-visceral [intellectual] capabilities to evaluate them.

As per usual, Bertrand Russell said it better, in response to question similar to yours but emphasizing what we would normally call “blind faith”:

We may define ‘faith’ as the firm belief in something for which there is no evidence. Where there is evidence, no one speaks of ‘faith.’ We do not speak of faith that two and two are four or that the earth is round. We only speak of faith when we wish to substitute emotion for evidence. The substitution of emotion for evidence is apt to lead to strife, since different groups, substitute different emotions.
In particular, history shows that reliance on (visceral) emotion to “justify” faith (the “proof-by-pleasure fallacy”) has been especially damaging to the possibility of peace between people of different “faiths”, whether the people are within a single family or within different tribes or nations. And thus the singularly prophetic nature of the remark attributed to Jesus: “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.”

And I would add (even though it may stir emotions) that my impression (derived from limited data) is that women and male homosexuals may be particularly vulnerable to the “proof-by-pleasure fallacy”, since they seem to have particularly sensitive emotions.
Reply

جوري
03-17-2007, 11:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by zoro
Purestambrosia: Your question and statement



caused me to have a “double take”, because the common meaning for ‘visceral’ is



Thereby, I read your question as:



which is not what I expected you meant -- and apparently not what you meant.

My response to the question that you addressed to Trumble (although Trumble obviously needs no help from me, but by responding, I can address a question that, in another thread, you asked me but I chose to deflect) would include the following points.

1. All animals (including humans) make visceral decisions (e.g., to duck when a projectile is coming at their heads).

2. Humans surpass the rest of the animals (as far as we know) in our intellectual abilities; therefore, for our continued survival, it would seem to be wise to use our intellectual capabilities to their fullest extent.

3. As a part of our intellectual capabilities, we generate faith, hopes, and dreams (or maybe better than ‘dreams’, ‘goals’, since I’m quite sure that my German shepherd also dreams!). In addition, though (and importantly), we can use our intellectual capabilities to evaluate our faiths, hopes, and goals, e.g., to see if they’re logical, to estimate probabilities that our hopes and goals can be achieved, to evaluate the evidence supporting our faiths to determine if confidence in them is justified, and so on.

Thus, I agree with Trumble that there’s nothing “wrong” with faith, hopes, goals, or anything visceral [usual meaning, including “emotions”], but I would argue that we should then apply our non-visceral [intellectual] capabilities to evaluate them.

As per usual, Bertrand Russell said it better, in response to question similar to yours but emphasizing what we would normally call “blind faith”:



In particular, history shows that reliance on (visceral) emotion to “justify” faith (the “proof-by-pleasure fallacy”) has been especially damaging to the possibility of peace between people of different “faiths”, whether the people are within a single family or within different tribes or nations. And thus the singularly prophetic nature of the remark attributed to Jesus: “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.”

And I would add (even though it may stir emotions) that my impression (derived from limited data) is that women and male homosexuals may be particularly vulnerable to the “proof-by-pleasure fallacy”, since they seem to have particularly sensitive emotions.
You are a fascinating character and you have much to offer... Makes me wonder why on such a beautiful Sunday you'd rather spend your time arguing semantics on a forum rather than enjoying the sun with your family?...

To me it seems you have a bit of chip on your shoulders from current events or previous events? I don't think "Good" makes the news or history for that matter!.. History speaks of Opium wars and 15 million peasants dying under Mao Xedong-- unparalleled losses --and no religion to blame as culprit. Strange!
.. it is the nature of man--- but man as a part of humanity which is much like an ocean comes in a full spectrum and I like to believe that most of that spectrum is good! ..you are drunk ominous events. it is unfortunate! and that seems to dictate your views of the world around you...Even dictates your view of a (G-D) that sadly you'd pass up the opportunity of knowing through his creation in favor of science fiction!

I am a Muslim and not a Christian and can tell you for a fact that when Jesus (PBUH) stated (I didn't come to bring peace but a sword) he meant something utterly different than the horrors you ascribe to him!--- what a horrible error it is to take a sentence out of context and apply it where it doesn't fit!

Lastly: My religion makes me feel empowered not vulnerable-- I am not subjected to laws that disable me from getting a divorce when battered--- that inhibit me from seeking knowledge if I am capable of reaching it... that disables me from having my own business and financial freedom.. that denies me my inheritance -- that would dictate that I give up my salary to a man should he seek alimony on the account that I make more than him! My rights are reserved by religious laws... which I affirm is radically post modern especially in a society that not 70 yrs ago was asking a woman to move to the back of the bus for the color of her skin, or even subjects me to lesser pay for doing the same type of job as my male counterpart-- or reduces me to working as a street worker because I am unable to provide for myself otherwise.... Your man made laws I can argue easily were pitiful and still continue to be --- religious laws uplift one from falling into the desires of the lower self! now, I am going to be honest with you-- I am not keen on quoting dead philosophers and their subjective views.... It is a nice casual read on a day like this--- but I wouldn't let it influence my perception!....... Opium is the opium of the masses not Religion!
Peace!
Reply

zoro
03-17-2007, 11:25 PM
Qed
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-17-2007, 11:28 PM
Well, for those who object to the "faith' ideas that have been presented, let us talk about pain in terms of those that are not believers, and now I don't mean humans, I mean animals. (At least they are not believers in the sense we mean it when people talk about believing, so let's leave any other philosophical questions about their ability to have faith for another thread.)

Evolutionary theory would say the sense of sound developed so that a creature could better search for food and avoid predators. Sight enables us to do these things and also to notice if we are about to fall into a pit or off a ledge. Taste encourages us to eat a healthier diet. Smell can warn us of the toxicity of some items; of the presence of food, friend or foe; and helps us bond with one another. Now think of pain.

What benefit is there to pain from an evolutionary perspective? Just like several of us have now already said, it warns us. It warns of injury. It warns of disease. It warns the creature that something is wrong and thus spurs it to take action to modify its behavior in such a way that gives it the best chance to survive. Not all creatures pain receptors are as well developed as others. Thus that are more well developed appear to be at an evlotionary advantage over those that are not as developed. So, that would make pain a gift.

Now follow that line of reasoning. If we have developed yet an even higher order of pain perception beyond mere physical pain, to experience pain at the emotional level, it must be because we are also emotional beings. We need each other, we are social creatures and depend on the bonds we have with one another in society to be emotionally healthy. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that we are not whole individuals unless connected with other people in emotionally healthy and satisfying relationships.

How about spiritual pain? Is there such a thing as a spiritual level of pain? Have you ever felt pain in your soul? If you find that experience to be true, what does that tell you about yourself that you might not have ever considered before?
Reply

zoro
03-17-2007, 11:56 PM
I agree with Grace Seeker's first point -- plus most of the rest that he wrote. Spinoza (1632 - 1677), commonly called the “father of psychology”, wrote

…pleasure and pain… are states or passions whereby every man’s power or endeavor to persist in his being is increased or diminished, helped or hindered.
It appears, however, that possibly because he had no family, Spinoza didn't extend his idea about pleasure and pain to include our similar feelings for "family" members -- with each person deciding the "extent" of his or her family, out to an including the view held by some Buddhists (and even some Christians) to include all living things in "the family of life".
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 12
    Last Post: 10-09-2017, 01:02 PM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-15-2013, 10:51 PM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-23-2010, 06:10 PM
  4. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 05-12-2008, 09:35 PM
  5. Replies: 38
    Last Post: 01-16-2007, 10:10 AM
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Holiday in the Maldives

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!