Question about Muhammad

[westcoast]

I recently gained interest in Islam because many of my friends are Muslim, and I began reading the Qu'ran a while ago
I believe that Jews, Christians and Muslims alike all believe that the prophets that came before Jesus and Muhammad had a personal relationship with God, i.e they all received revelations and a message from God himself, meaning God spoke directly to Moses, and God spoke directly to Noah etc.
This being said, how is it that in Islam, Muhammad is the final (and consequently the most important) messenger/prophet God has had on earth, because he was chosen to deliver the final message/word to the people.. and surprisingly, breaking with tradition of the former prophets of God, Muhammad did not speak with God directly, did not receive his word from God or any revelation from him. Muhammad received the message from the Archangel Gabriel, and told the people it was the word of God.

i'm not interested in becoming muslim, i'm just reading up on it to gain knowledge and not be ignorant to the topic. But if i was interested, i would ask myself this, and question the validity of Muhammad's claim that he indeed was a prophet from God, for the simple fact that all other prophets (who are considered less important than Muhammad) actually spoke directly to God, whereas Muhammad spoke to an angel.
Do you follow how/why skepticism would arise regarding this topic?

[Umar001]

I recently gained interest in Islam because many of my friends are Muslim, and I began reading the Qu'ran a while ago
I believe that Jews, Christians and Muslims alike all believe that the prophets that came before Jesus and Muhammad had a personal relationship with God, i.e they all received revelations and a message from God himself, meaning God spoke directly to Moses, and God spoke directly to Noah etc.

What is the evidence for this belief of yours? Why do you believe that Jews Christians and Muslims believe that God spoke directly to Prophets?

Please cite the sources then maybe I can understand the foundations for that belief.

Eesa.

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Welcome to the forum and thank you for your interest in Islam :).

i would ask myself this, and question the validity of Muhammad's claim that he indeed was a prophet from God, for the simple fact that all other prophets (who are considered less important than Muhammad) actually spoke directly to God, whereas Muhammad spoke to an angel.

All the other Prophets other than Muhammad (peace be upon him) did not speak directly to God; this only occurred with some of them. Therefore no previous 'tradition' as such is being broken. Also, there was an occasion when God did actually speak directly to Muhammad (peace be upon him), which was on an occasion known as the Night Journey, although the Qur'an was not revealed like this.

In Islam, we respect all Prophets, and it is true that the final Prophet (peace be upon him) does have a very high status. The fact that the revelation given to Muhammad (peace be upon him) was gradual and hence unique with respect to the previous scriptures, and the superiority that the Qur'an has over the previous scriptures are indications towards the higher status of Muhammad (peace be upon him). There are many other aspects of Muhammad (peace be upon him) that illustrate how he has been honoured more than other Prophets. This concept has been discussed in greater depth elsewhere on the forum, such as here: http://www.islamicboard.com/458175-post5.html

did not receive his word from God or any revelation from him. Muhammad received the message from the Archangel Gabriel, and told the people it was the word of God.

There are different ways that God inspired Prophets, and one of these was with an intermediary, where God sent an angel to inspire the Prophet. So we see that the role of the angel is simply to convey the message; not make it up himself, and thus the Qur'an is still the Word of God. Inspiration also came to the Messenger (peace be upon him) without an angel, therefore whether or not an angel came to inspire him is irrelevant.

I hope this has helped to clarify the issue, and Allaah knows best.

Peace.

[westcoast]

What is the evidence for this belief of yours? Why do you believe that Jews Christians and Muslims believe that God spoke directly to Prophets?

Please cite the sources then maybe I can understand the foundations for that belief.

Eesa.

judeo-christian theology believes this, a quote from Exodus:
11:1 God said to Moses, 'There is one more plague that I will send..."
again
Exodus 33:11- The LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, as one man speaks to another.

and there are other passages which illustrate this, i'll quote more if u'd like
peace

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[westcoast]

Greetings,

Welcome to the forum and thank you for your interest in Islam :).

All the other Prophets other than Muhammad (peace be upon him) did not speak directly to God; this only occurred with some of them. Therefore no previous 'tradition' as such is being broken. Also, there was an occasion when God did actually speak directly to Muhammad (peace be upon him), which was on an occasion known as the Night Journey, although the Qur'an was not revealed like this.

In Islam, we respect all Prophets, and it is true that the final Prophet (peace be upon him) does have a very high status. The fact that the revelation given to Muhammad (peace be upon him) was gradual and hence unique with respect to the previous scriptures, and the superiority that the Qur'an has over the previous scriptures are indications towards the higher status of Muhammad (peace be upon him). There are many other aspects of Muhammad (peace be upon him) that illustrate how he has been honoured more than other Prophets. This concept has been discussed in greater depth elsewhere on the forum, such as here: http://www.islamicboard.com/458175-post5.html

There are different ways that God inspired Prophets, and one of these was with an intermediary, where God sent an angel to inspire the Prophet. So we see that the role of the angel is simply to convey the message; not make it up himself, and thus the Qur'an is still the Word of God. Inspiration also came to the Messenger (peace be upon him) without an angel, therefore whether or not an angel came to inspire him is irrelevant.

I hope this has helped to clarify the issue, and Allaah knows best.

Peace.

which prophets prior to muhammad "didnt" speak to God directly?
secondly, doesnt direct dialogue indicate a more personal relationship, regardless of who's involved? the fact that Muslims say that Mohamad is so highly revered in Islam, that he is the one God chose to deliver his message through, yet most (if not all) of the revelation came via Gabriel the archangel.. it just doesnt sit well. strictly speaking as an observer i mean... God spoke directly to Moses, who isnt as "important" as Mohamad..
it doesnt make sense to me

[- Qatada -]

Hey westcoast.


Maybe you could post other quotes which support other prophets [besides Moses] talking directly to God?


We know that the Qur'an was revealed over a period of 23years in different situations throughout the lifetime of the Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him.)

We also know that when Moses spoke to God, he had to go to the valley of Tuwa when he spoke to God.


The Qur'an was revealed throughout different situations and due to that - it had to be revealed at different locations. Which means the Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him) didn't go to the valley like Moses always did. Rather the message was given to him straightaway from the arch angel Gabriel.

Angels can never disobey God, because they are created that way. Therefore Angel Gabriel couldn't have lied, and if someone claims it was a devil, well thats just dumb because if we see the message revealed to Muhammad (peace be upon him) - they'll see that it was the same message as all the previous prophets:

Those who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists were not to be parted [from misbelief] until there came to them clear evidence -

A Messenger from Allah , reciting purified scriptures

Containing correct and straight laws from Allah.

Nor did those who were given the Scripture become divided until after there had come to them clear evidence.

And they were not commanded except to worship Allah , [being] sincere to Him in religion, inclining to truth, and to establish prayer and to give zakah. (charity) And that is the correct religion.


Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.

Indeed, they who have believed and done righteous deeds - those are the best of creatures.

Their reward with Allah will be gardens of perpetual residence beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever, Allah being pleased with them and they with Him. That is for whoever has feared his Lord.


[Qur'an 98 Al-Bayyina [the Clear Proof]

We also know that Muhammad (peace be upon him) did talk to Allaah directly in the night of Israa' wal Mi'raaj [the Night of Descent] - when he went above the seven heavens and spoke directly to God. The command given by God was to establish the prayer, the same message given to Moses and his people. This showed the importance of prayer in the sight of God.


God conveyed His message to His prophets in a way which He knows best, and out of His eternal wisdom. Now that we know that this is the case - we turn to the actual message itself to see whether it is the truth or not.

The message which God revealed to His servant and Messenger is a healing for the believers, yet a source of regret for the oppressors. It is a book which confirms what came before it, a light and a guidance. Whoever follows it will be successful in this world and the next, and he who places it behind his back wanders in the darkness, lost, forever.

[Umar001]

judeo-christian theology believes this, a quote from Exodus:
11:1 God said to Moses, 'There is one more plague that I will send..."
again
Exodus 33:11- The LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, as one man speaks to another.

and there are other passages which illustrate this, i'll quote more if u'd like
peace

Keep them coming, my comments on the above shall proceed altogether with the rest.

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

which prophets prior to muhammad "didnt" speak to God directly?

I think we should ask which of them did, seeing as the Qur'an and hadeeth mention quite clearly which Prophets Allaah (swt) spoke to, namely, Moses and Muhammad, peace be upon them both.

secondly, doesnt direct dialogue indicate a more personal relationship, regardless of who's involved? the fact that Muslims say that Mohamad is so highly revered in Islam, that he is the one God chose to deliver his message through, yet most (if not all) of the revelation came via Gabriel the archangel.. it just doesnt sit well. strictly speaking as an observer i mean... God spoke directly to Moses, who isnt as "important" as Mohamad..
it doesnt make sense to me

Allaah (swt) went further than direct dialogue in the case of Muhammad (peace be upon him), because He actually caused him to ascend the seven heavens during the occasion known as the Night Journey, which is a great miracle that occured in his life. During this Night, he led the other Prophets in prayer in the mosque at Jerusalem and saw many things that others had not.

There are many other narrations from the Prophet (peace be upon him) which show how and why he is so highly honoured. I would recommend reading the link I gave you to gain a better understanding.

And as I mentioned above, just because the Angel Gabriel was involved in delivering the revelation, this does not lessen the importance of Muhammad (peace be upon him) in any way. This same angel has also been sent to other Prophets as you will note in the verse below.

Those Messengers! We preferred some to others; to some of them Allâh spoke (directly); others He raised to degrees (of honour); and to 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), We gave clear proofs and evidences, and supported him with Rûh-ul-Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel)]. If Allâh had willed, succeeding generations would not have fought against each other, after clear Verses of Allâh had come to them, but they differed - some of them believed and others disbelieved. If Allâh had willed, they would not have fought against one another, but Allâh does what He likes. [2:253]

The revelation of the Qur'an was different to that of the previous scriptures, which were all revealed at once. It was revealed gradually over a period of 23 years and this uniqueness is a sign of the honour given to Muhammad (peace be upon him). This, together with many other aspects, demonstrate how Muhammad (peace be upon him) has been preferred above others.

Peace.

[westcoast]

here's another passagge.. i cant keep up with this thread and the ridiculous amounts of replies people are sending me in another thread

"33:23. And the word of the Lord came to Jeremias, saying:
Et factum est verbum Domini ad Hieremiam dicens

33:24. Hast thou not seen what this people hath spoken, saying: "


Now, lets say God ONLY spoke directly to 1 prophet, lets say that only prophet was Jeremiah for argument's sake, and to the rest he revealed his message through visions and what not. The final word according to Muslims is the Qu'ran, and Muhammad is the highly revered messenger of this word. Clearly, in terms of importance, this final message is vastly more important than other prophecies/messages of the other prophets. How is it that the utmost important word of GOD is to be dictated to Muhammad, if not completely, but the majority of it, through an Angel??
I'd be weary of anybody claiming they got the word of the living God through an Angel and not God himself.
peace

[Umar001]

Lol the word of God came to Jeremiah that means Jewmiah spoke face to face with God?

Erm, great work! lol.

[- Qatada -]

Okay, so from there we can say that you agree that it was Prophet Moses who spoke to God in the valley of Tuwa on Mount Sinai? Now if that's the case - then we agree that there were other prophets who are also loved and of a high class in the sight of God. So the example of Prophet Abraham, Jesus son of mary, Noah etc.

Now did these prophets have a similar encounter with God the same way Moses did? If they never, God did it out of His eternal wisdom.


I mentioned that the final Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him) did talk to God directly in the journey of Israa' wal Mi'raaj [the Night of Descent.] This is recorded in Sahih Muslim and is authentic without a doubt, due to the sciences of hadith.

Now from this we see that when Allaah's Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) talks to God, he speaks to Him directly, with no barrier in the way - no flame (Prophet Moses had this barrier), which shows that he is a great prophet of Allaah, yet so are the other prophets (peace be upon them all.)


This actually raises his rank, and again - Allaah did it out of His eternal wisdom that He would send an angel, the leader of the angels - the Ark Angel, who would convey the message without any error to God's final Messenger (peace be upon him.) If you are in doubt whether an angel does convey the full truth, then that means you doubt God since angels and prophets do not falter when conveying the message of God.



Regards.

[westcoast]

so now Muhammad received the revelation for the Qu'ran through God and not Gabriel?
and what "sciences of hadith" are these you speak of? as far as i know, hadiths are nothing more than hearsay, explain why they should be taken into consideration seeing as how they're just recollections of muhammad's life through his followers? they arent the word of God, as Muslims claim the Qu'ran is...
in fact, i am lost as to finding the verse or passage in the Qu'ran that specifically states that Muslims need to pray exactly 5 times a day, perhaps you can find it for me...

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Now, lets say God ONLY spoke directly to 1 prophet, lets say that only prophet was Jeremiah for argument's sake, and to the rest he revealed his message through visions and what not. The final word according to Muslims is the Qu'ran, and Muhammad is the highly revered messenger of this word. Clearly, in terms of importance, this final message is vastly more important than other prophecies/messages of the other prophets. How is it that the utmost important word of GOD is to be dictated to Muhammad, if not completely, but the majority of it, through an Angel??
I'd be weary of anybody claiming they got the word of the living God through an Angel and not God himself.

You are looking at one aspect of a big picture and ignoring all the rest. You ignore the gradual and unique revelation, the protection from corruption, the miraculous nature and many other aspects of the Qur'an that clearly illustrate its superiority, and dwelling on the fact that an angel was involved in its revelation. Though it should be noted that it wasn't any angel, it was, as you said, the Archangel Gabriel:

And truly, this (the Qur'ân) is a revelation from the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists),

Which the trustworthy Rûh [Jibrael (Gabriel)] has brought down;

Upon your heart (O Muhammad

) that you may be (one) of the warners... [26: 192-194]


You forget that Moses was given his scripture all at once, whereas Muhammad (peace be upon him) was given his scripture over 23 years. Are you saying that Muhammad (peace be upon him) should have spoken to God thousands of times over 23 years to receive the whole of the Qur'an? Already we can see that the way that Allaah has chosen was the most befitting, and it is pointless to argue otherwise. Whichever way that Allaah has preferred His prophets above others, we simply accept them and do not question why, in recognition of our limited capacity to understand.

in fact, i am lost as to finding the verse or passage in the Qu'ran that specifically states that Muslims need to pray exactly 5 times a day, perhaps you can find it for me...

Sure, there is an in-depth article on it here:

http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...orious%20Quran

[eace.

[westcoast]

Greetings,

You are looking at one aspect of a big picture and ignoring all the rest. You ignore the gradual and unique revelation, the protection from corruption, the miraculous nature and many other aspects of the Qur'an that clearly illustrate its superiority, and dwelling on the fact that an angel was involved in its revelation. Though it should be noted that it wasn't any angel, it was, as you said, the Archangel Gabriel:

And truly, this (the Qur'ân) is a revelation from the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists),

Which the trustworthy Rûh [Jibrael (Gabriel)] has brought down;

Upon your heart (O Muhammad

) that you may be (one) of the warners... [26: 192-194]


You forget that Moses was given his scripture all at once, whereas Muhammad (peace be upon him) was given his scripture over 23 years. Are you saying that Muhammad (peace be upon him) should have spoken to God thousands of times over 23 years to receive the whole of the Qur'an? Already we can see that the way that Allaah has chosen was the most befitting, and it is pointless to argue otherwise. Whichever way that Allaah has preferred His prophets above others, we simply accept them and do not question why, in recognition of our limited capacity to understand.

Sure, there is an in-depth article on it here:

http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...orious%20Quran

[eace.

Muhamad thanks for ur reply. ps: why do i keep getting private messages from you?
Moving on;
I read that article, thanks for the link.. however, i've seen that the Qu'ran only mentions 3 prayers by name [Salat Al-Fajr (Dawn Prayer)24:58, Salat Al-Esha (Night Prayer)24:58,Al-Salat Al-Wusta (The Middle Prayer) 2:238.]
It makes sense to have 3, one in the morning, one in midday and one at night.
These are the only 3 prayers found in the Qu'ran given in detail and by name. The Qu'ran is said to be complete and missing nothing
"when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." surah 6:114
Why then, are there 5 prayers now rather than the 3 explicitly detailed in the Qu'ran?
The only recollection of this "5" a day i found is in the hadith, the account of muhamad going to the heaven where God tells him that his people must pray 50 times a day, or once every 28 minutes. It is then that muhammad negotiates with God (??) into reducing the number from 50 to 5. This is very specific, but in the Hadith, NOT the Qu'ran.

[NoName55]

problem is some people never read the reply given

Fajr Salat is mentioned in Surah Ta-Ha, Dahr, Hud, Qaf, Rum and Nur.
Zuhr Salat is mentioned in Surah Dahr, Qaf, Ta-Ha, Bani Israel or Isra and Rum.
Asr Salat is mentioned in Surah Baqaraah, Dahr, Hud, Ta-Ha, Qaf and Rum.
MaghribSalat is mentioned in Surah Hud, Ta-Ha, Rum, and Qaf.
Isha Salat is mentioned in Surah Muzzammil, Tur, Dahr, Ta-Ha, Hud, Rum, Qaf, and Nur.
Beside the above all the Salats have been implicitly mentioned in Surah Al-Baqaraah, Isra, Ta-ha.

http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...orious%20Quran

[- Qatada -]

So true ^ seems like westcoast wants to take a pick and mix from our posts, and reject the rest. Even though it answers their question.

[Malaikah]

Westcoast,

I don't understand why you think it makes such a huge difference that the Quran was taught to Muhammad pbuh through an angel rather than by God himself?

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

ps: why do i keep getting private messages from you?

It's probably when your posts are either edited or deleted.

I read that article, thanks for the link.. however, i've seen that the Qu'ran only mentions 3 prayers by name [Salat Al-Fajr (Dawn Prayer)24:58, Salat Al-Esha (Night Prayer)24:58,Al-Salat Al-Wusta (The Middle Prayer) 2:238.]
It makes sense to have 3, one in the morning, one in midday and one at night.

It seems that you didn't read the article properly, because it explains that there are various terms that are used to mention the different prayers. Even Salatul Wustaa is not the actual name of the middle prayer - the actual name is the 'Asr prayer.

The Qu'ran is said to be complete and missing nothing
"when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." surah 6:114
Why then, are there 5 prayers now rather than the 3 explicitly detailed in the Qu'ran?
The only recollection of this "5" a day i found is in the hadith, the account of muhamad going to the heaven where God tells him that his people must pray 50 times a day, or once every 28 minutes. It is then that muhammad negotiates with God (??) into reducing the number from 50 to 5. This is very specific, but in the Hadith, NOT the Qu'ran.

The reason for your misunderstanding is because you are assuming that the Qur'an is the only source of Islam, however, the hadeeth are also a source and they help to explain the Qur'an. This is why something does not have to be mentioned by name, or all the rulings pertaining to a matter may not be mentioned, as the hadeeth provide the necessary explanation and provide further information to enhance our understanding of the Qur'an. The Qur'an itself mentions the role of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) in explaining the Qur'an. This issue has been discussed in-depth in the following threads should you wish to learn more:

http://www.islamicboard.com/sects-di...nah-islam.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...nah-islam.html

Thank you for your questions.

[westcoast]

Greetings,

It's probably when your posts are either edited or deleted.

It seems that you didn't read the article properly, because it explains that there are various terms that are used to mention the different prayers. Even Salatul Wustaa is not the actual name of the middle prayer - the actual name is the 'Asr prayer.

The reason for your misunderstanding is because you are assuming that the Qur'an is the only source of Islam, however, the hadeeth are also a source and they help to explain the Qur'an. This is why something does not have to be mentioned by name, or all the rulings pertaining to a matter may not be mentioned, as the hadeeth provide the necessary explanation and provide further information to enhance our understanding of the Qur'an. The Qur'an itself mentions the role of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) in explaining the Qur'an. This issue has been discussed in-depth in the following threads should you wish to learn more:

http://www.islamicboard.com/sects-di...nah-islam.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...nah-islam.html

Thank you for your questions.

The Qu'ran is complete, perfect, without flaw and easy to understand (all claims made regarding the Qu'ran) yet the Hadiths, books recollecting the life of Muhammad are "necessary" for one to understand it?
Thanks.

[YusufNoor]

The Qu'ran is complete, perfect, without flaw and easy to understand (all claims made regarding the Qu'ran) yet the Hadiths, books recollecting the life of Muhammad are "necessary" for one to understand it?
Thanks.

Greetings of Peace West Coast!

the Seerah: life of the Prophet(pbuh) is absolutely neccessary to understand the Qur'an and Islam. Brother Fi-Si has a great link to one study group, maybe, Insha' Allah, he'll post it, if not i will, Insha' Allah.

as you wrote in another post:

The Qu'ran is said to be complete and missing nothing
"when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." surah 6:114

it was the Prophet of Allah(pbuh) who did the explaining! reading an English Translation of the Qur'an w/o said "explanations" can be quite bewildering, and almost nonsensical. and Seerah gives a much better scope of the "how and why's" of some Ayat/Surah.

it was the Rasulullah(pbuh) who put revelation into effect. from his(pbuh) example as well as of the Companions of the Prophet(ra), is the way for us to learn and understand our din.

regarding an earlier post, yes, a course in Arabic is extremely useful and the full granduer and scope of the Qur'an becomes alot more apparent in it's original tongue. being a relatively new Muslim, i began a study group in Arabic a few weeks ago.

in case some Brothers and Sister tend to forget, the Prophet of Allah(pbuh) came to perfect good manners and to enjoin good and forbid evil. so if we sometimes seem to be a tad[or more] on the rude side of the things, please forgive us. we mean well and seem to get frustrated easily[somehow fogetting Sabr!].

what part of the west coast do you reside in?

May you gain an understanding of Islam that is beneficial and fruitful!

:w:

Yusuf

[westcoast]

Greetings of Peace West Coast!

the Seerah: life of the Prophet(pbuh) is absolutely neccessary to understand the Qur'an and Islam. Brother Fi-Si has a great link to one study group, maybe, Insha' Allah, he'll post it, if not i will, Insha' Allah.

as you wrote in another post:


it was the Prophet of Allah(pbuh) who did the explaining! reading an English Translation of the Qur'an w/o said "explanations" can be quite bewildering, and almost nonsensical. and Seerah gives a much better scope of the "how and why's" of some Ayat/Surah.

it was the Rasulullah(pbuh) who put revelation into effect. from his(pbuh) example as well as of the Companions of the Prophet(ra), is the way for us to learn and understand our din.

regarding an earlier post, yes, a course in Arabic is extremely useful and the full granduer and scope of the Qur'an becomes alot more apparent in it's original tongue. being a relatively new Muslim, i began a study group in Arabic a few weeks ago.

in case some Brothers and Sister tend to forget, the Prophet of Allah(pbuh) came to perfect good manners and to enjoin good and forbid evil. so if we sometimes seem to be a tad[or more] on the rude side of the things, please forgive us. we mean well and seem to get frustrated easily[somehow fogetting Sabr!].

what part of the west coast do you reside in?

May you gain an understanding of Islam that is beneficial and fruitful!

:w:

Yusuf

yea do provide that link you speak of, because up to now i have no understanding as to why the hadiths are even needed. my belief is that the qu'ran alone should be enough, given that it is the word of Alllah, and if it is in fact his word would he not make it understandable for those who wish to read it?
and i live in Northern California.
peace

[- Qatada -]

Hi westcoast.


The Qur'an is a book of guidance for mankind from God, and the Messenger of God, Muhammad (peace be upon him) implemented the Qur'an within his life, and because he was the messenger, we follow his example and the way of his rightly guided companions.

Therefore we need ahadith [which are recordings of what they did] and this is also a source of law for us due to the fact that we follow the Prophetic example.


It's like saying we need to follow the example of Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) - how can that be proven if one doesn't even have his way of life authentically documented?

The Qur'an is a book of guidance, and if you're confused - know that the name Muhammad is only mentioned around 4 times in the Qur'an, whereas the names of Moses and Jesus and the other prophets are mentioned over and over again, continouslly throughout the Qur'an.

The Authentic Ahadith are the narratives of the companions of the Messenger of God, and the sayings of the Messenger of God himself. Why do we need these? To know how they implemented the Qur'an so we may have an solid example to follow.

[westcoast]

Hi westcoast.


The Qur'an is a book of guidance for mankind from God, and the Messenger of God, Muhammad (peace be upon him) implemented the Qur'an within his life, and because he was the messenger, we follow his example and the way of his rightly guided companions.

Therefore we need ahadith [which are recordings of what they did] and this is also a source of law for us due to the fact that we follow the Prophetic example.


It's like saying we need to follow the example of Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) - how can that be proven if one doesn't even have his way of life authentically documented?

The Qur'an is a book of guidance, and if you're confused - know that the name Muhammad is only mentioned around 4 times in the Qur'an, whereas the names of Moses and Jesus and the other prophets are mentioned over and over again, continouslly throughout the Qur'an.

The Authentic Ahadith are the narratives of the companions of the Messenger of God, and the sayings of the Messenger of God himself. Why do we need these? To know how they implemented the Qur'an so we may have an solid example to follow.

whats up.
I understand what the hadiths are and how they are related to the Qu'ran (they are stories/accounts of Muhammad's life, yes?). I can also see how a muslim can take examples of how to live their life if they read stories of their prophet. I am with you up to that point.
However, i see that you place a very high importance to the way muhammad lived, where i believe you should look to the Qu'ran for guidance, as you claim it is a book of Guidance among other things. To me, or at least to my understanding hadiths are like a biography of Muhammads life and a chronicle of his activities, something to be studied but not to be regarded as close to the Qu'ran as it appears to be.
What i've found in many hadiths are some very unappealing events involving Muhammad, that i'm sure you're aware of hence mine and others weariness of believing as him as a perfect example for people to live their lives by.

[- Qatada -]

whats up.
I understand what the hadiths are and how they are related to the Qu'ran (they are stories/accounts of Muhammad's life, yes?). I can also see how a muslim can take examples of how to live their life if they read stories of their prophet. I am with you up to that point.

The Qur'an was revealed over 23yrs as stated many times throughout the forum, it was revealed in certain situations and the stories of the previous prophets were related from God to His Messenger in order to strengthen the believers. So anything that was revealed from Qur'an was revealed for a specific situation.

However, i see that you place a very high importance to the way muhammad lived, where i believe you should look to the Qu'ran for guidance, as you claim it is a book of Guidance among other things. To me, or at least to my understanding hadiths are like a biography of Muhammads life and a chronicle of his activities, something to be studied but not to be regarded as close to the Qu'ran as it appears to be.

The ahadith are sayings and actions of God's Messenger, peace be upon him. What he ordered, forbade, his example etc. Aisha (may God be pleased with her) stated that his character was of the Qur'an.


God Almighty says:

And thou [O Muhammad] (standest) on an exalted standard of character. [Qur'an 68:4]

What i've found in many hadiths are some very unappealing events involving Muhammad, that i'm sure you're aware of hence mine and others weariness of believing as him as a perfect example for people to live their lives by.

That's because whenever we give you the links to the refutations, you choose to ignore it and to rush onto another topic. So maybe by reading the refutation you'll get a better understanding. Instead of just hearing it from biased sources. :)

[westcoast]

The Qur'an was revealed over 23yrs as stated many times throughout the forum, it was revealed in certain situations and the stories of the previous prophets were related from God to His Messenger in order to strengthen the believers. So anything that was revealed from Qur'an was revealed for a specific situation.




The ahadith are sayings and actions of God's Messenger, peace be upon him. What he ordered, forbade, his example etc. Aisha (may God be pleased with her) stated that his character was of the Qur'an.


God Almighty says:

And thou [O Muhammad] (standest) on an exalted standard of character. [Qur'an 68:4]





That's because whenever we give you the links to the refutations, you choose to ignore it and to rush onto another topic. So maybe by reading the refutation you'll get a better understanding. Instead of just hearing it from biased sources. :)

^what refutation can you give? Is not the Sahih Bukhari collection of events not pretty much the most accepted and trusted? I believe that the example Jesus gave to humanity is far greater than Muhammads (no offense) and this is clear whether you get it from the Bible or the Qu'ran, as they both declare that he was sinless


however, Muhammad did some things that today would be considered just plain awful, such as the maiming of said persons in the Sahih Bukhari verse i have quoted. Jesus's example has withstood the test of time.

[- Qatada -]

^what refutation can you give? Is not the Sahih Bukhari collection of events not pretty much the most accepted and trusted? I believe that the example Jesus gave to humanity is far greater than Muhammads (no offense) and this is clear whether you get it from the Bible or the Qu'ran, as they both declare that he was sinless
however, Muhammad did some things that today would be considered just plain awful, such as the maiming of said persons in the Sahih Bukhari verse i have quoted. Jesus's example has withstood the test of time.

The refutations to their evil claims. :)


By the way, Muhammad peace be upon him was also sinless since Allaah forgave his past and future sins = sinless.

Michael Hart in 'The 100, A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons In History,' New York, 1978.

My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world’s most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the secular and religious level. ...It is probable that the relative influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity. ...It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history.

http://www.islamicboard.com/prophet-...uhammad-s.html

Again, question who you get your morals off. Kinda ironic since a non muslim placed Muhammad peace be upon him as number 1. And if you never had your scripture, and the Qur'an wasn't the criterion - i guess you could never prove Jesus son of Mary existed right? :) Whereas we have proof and also faith.

[westcoast]

The refutations to their evil claims. :)


By the way, Muhammad peace be upon him was also sinless since Allaah forgave his past and future sins = sinless.

Michael Hart in 'The 100, A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons In History,' New York, 1978.

My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world’s most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the secular and religious level. ...It is probable that the relative influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity. ...It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history.

http://www.islamicboard.com/prophet-...uhammad-s.html

Again, question who you get your morals off. Kinda ironic since a non muslim placed Muhammad peace be upon him as number 1. And if you never had your scripture, and the Qur'an wasn't the criterion - i guess you could never prove Jesus son of Mary existed right? :) Whereas we have proof and also faith.

by sinless i meant lived without sin, as in there wasnt a need to ask for forgiveness... come on you should know that. secondly, what is that list about? why does it even pertain to what we're discussing? clearly, upon reading the Hadiths which you've already claimed as valid and necessary in islam, you see Muhammad committing murder and other questionable acts, but this is accepted why? Jesus did no such thing, nothing even close, for his message was of peace and Harmony.

[- Qatada -]

by sinless i meant lived without sin, as in there wasnt a need to ask for forgiveness... come on you should know that. secondly, what is that list about? why does it even pertain to what we're discussing? clearly, upon reading the Hadiths which you've already claimed as valid and necessary in islam, you see Muhammad committing murder and other questionable acts, but this is accepted why? Jesus did no such thing, nothing even close, for his message was of peace and Harmony.

He fought back against those who fought him, because God knows that wars occur. And therefore if an enemy attacks the believer, no matter what timeframe in history - the believer has the right to fight back. If you don't believe me, refer back to the life of Moses when he told his people to fight the people in the promised land, and even David when he fought Goliath. :)


Regards.

[westcoast]

He fought back against those who fought him, because God knows that wars occur. And therefore if an enemy attacks the believer, no matter what timeframe in history - the believer has the right to fight back. If you don't believe me, refer back to the life of Moses when he told his people to fight the people in the promised land, and even David when he fought Goliath. :)


Regards.

So if Jesus was "attacked" you believe he would have killed his attackers, all the while proclaiming the virtues of love and forgiveness???
And interesting you say that you're justified in fighting back if provoked or attacked first
Volume 7, Book 71, Number 589:
But when they became healthy, they killed the shepherd of the Prophet and drove away his camels. The Prophet sent some people in their pursuit. Then he got their hands and feet cut and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron. I saw one of them licking the earth with his tongue till he died.

^Muhammad had them maimed and tortured for stealing his camels...
(If i'm reading this wrong, correct me and it will be appreciated)

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 280:

When the tribe of Bani Quraiza was ready to accept Sad's judgment, Allah's Apostle sent for Sad who was near to him. Sad came, riding a donkey and when he came near, Allah's Apostle said (to the Ansar), "Stand up for your leader." Then Sad came and sat beside Allah's Apostle who said to him. "These people are ready to accept your judgment(verdict)." Sad said. "I give the judgment that their warriors should be killed and their children and women should be taken as prisoners."

There is no mercy or compassion illustrated in these passages.. Muhammad had overtaken these people, meaning captured them and they were awaiting their fate. He ordered all the men to be killed and women and children to be imprisoned.
?????

[- Qatada -]

So if Jesus was "attacked" you believe he would have killed his attackers, all the while proclaiming the virtues of love and forgiveness???
And interesting you say that you're justified in fighting back if provoked or attacked first

And you havn't studied the 13years of the Makkan era when the muslims were tortured yet they bore it patiently?

They fought back for the first time in Badr, guess when? When the enemy of Quraysh came on their way to attack the muslims in Medina. Kinda ironic since all you like doing is reading from anti islamic sites and putting it in your own words. But we'll handle that inshaa Allaah [God willing.]

Volume 7, Book 71, Number 589:
But when they became healthy, they killed the shepherd of the Prophet and drove away his camels. The Prophet sent some people in their pursuit. Then he got their hands and feet cut and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron. I saw one of them licking the earth with his tongue till he died.

^Muhammad had them maimed and tortured for stealing his camels...
(If i'm reading this wrong, correct me and it will be appreciated)

If you like getting info from anti islamic sites, i'll keep pasting refutations. Okay? :)

Bukhari: Some people from `Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them, so Allah's Apostle (pbuh) allowed them to go to the herd of camels (given as Zakat) and they drank their milk and urine (as medicine) but they killed the shepherd and drove away all the camels. So Allah's Apostle sent (men) in their pursuit to catch them, and they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut, and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron and they were left in the Harra (a stony place at Medina) biting the stones. (Volume 2, Book 24, Number 577)

This narration is often quoted in order to present the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as someone who delivered exceedingly cruel and barbaric punishments.
Let us examine the narration more closely along with other narrations of the same event. The narration states the following:

-Some people from Urayna (or Ukil) tribe came to Madinah after accepting Islam

-They acquired an illness due to the climate, for which the Arabs used to drink milk and urine of camels as medicine
-The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) allowed them to go to the herds of camels for their medicine
-After recovering from their illness, they killed the sheperd and drove away the camels
-The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) ordered their hands and feet cut off, their eyes branded with heated pieces of iron, and they were left in the desert

It is clear that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) prescribed the hands and feet to be cut off in accordance with the Islamic laws concerning hiraabah (armed robbery). What doesn't appear in this narration is the reason for branding their eyes with heated pieces of iron. This is explained in other narrations where it states that this was the punishment because they had done the same thing to the sheperd whom they killed. As Shaykh Abdul Khaliq Hasan Ash-Shareef states about this narration:

It should be made clear that those people who came to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) were Muslims and they were sick. The Prophet advised them to go to the herd of camels and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). When they became healthy, they killed the herder of the Prophet and drove away all the camels that were allocated for sadaqah (charity). When the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) came to know about this, he applied the punishment for Hirabah on them. Hiraba means killing people, robbing their money or raping women by an armed group of people. The punishment for Hirabah is mentioned in the Qur’an. Allah says:

“The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His Messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom” (Al-Ma’idah: 33).

As for branding their eyes, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) branded the eyes of the people of `Ukl or `Uraina with iron because they killed the herder and branded his eyes with iron. Imam Ibn Hajar stated the differences of opinions among scholars and he said, “The killing that took place (that is, in reference to the above hadith) was in retaliation and Allah Almighty says,

‘And one who attacketh you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you’ (Al-Baqarah: 194).”

All in all, using this story as evidence in favor of the permissibility of torturing people in Islam is refuted by the fact that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) applied the punishment for Hirabah on them and that he did not do so for personal vengeance. (SOURCE, emphasis added)

Likwise, Moiz Amjad writes:

There is only one part of the referred narrative, which raises a question-mark in one's mind. It apparently seems strange that after having implemented the punishment prescribed in the Qur'an for crimes committed against the society, in general, why did the Prophet (pbuh) ordered their eyes to be branded. Most of the narratives do not provide an answer to this question. However, in one of the narratives reported in Ibn Al-Jarood's Al-Muntaqaa, Anas (ra) is reported to have explained the reason for this punishment as well. The companion of the Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said:

The Prophet (pbuh) branded their eyes because they had branded the eyes of the herdsmen. (volume 1, Pg. 216)

This explanation adequately clarifies the fact that the Prophet (pbuh) ordered the branding the eyes of the culprits, in compliance with the Qur'anic directive of Qisaas (Al-Baqarah 2: 178, Al-Maaidah 5: 45) for the punishment of murder and inflicting physical injury on someone. In view of the foregoing explanation, I find no reason to consider the incident narrated in the referred narrative to be unauthentic. (SOURCE)

Shaykh Muhammad al-Qannâs, a Professor at Al-Imam University (Riyadh, Saudi Arabia), places the narration in perspective by presenting the views of the various Muslim scholars:

The above mentioned hadîth is narrated in Sahîh al-Bukhârî (6802) and Sahîh Muslim (1671). It reads:
Some people belonging (to the tribe) of `Uraynah came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) at Madînah, but they found its climate uncongenial. So the Prophet (peace be upon him) said to them: If you so like, you may go to the camels that are part of the charity and drink their milk and urine. They did so and were all right. They then fell upon the shepherds and killed them and turned apostates from Islam and drove off the camels of the Prophet (peace be upon him). This news reached Allah’s Apostle (peace be upon him) and he sent (people) on their track and they were (brought) and handed over to him. He got their hands cut off, and their feet, and put out their eyes, and threw them on the stony ground until they died.

The scholars disagree among themselves on this punishment:

1. Some said: This punishment was in retaliation for their act and the Prophet (peace be upon him) punished them in the same way that they killed the shepherds. It is mentioned in Sahîh Muslim


“The Prophet (peace be upon him) put out their eyes because they put out the eyes of the shepherds”.

The people concerned in studying the Prophet’s (peace be upon him) military career said: They dismembered the shipyards. Ibn al-Qayyim said: “It is extracted from the story of al-`Arâniyîn tribe that the criminal will be subject to the same act similar to the one he perpetrated, when they put out the shepherd’s eyes, he put out their eyes.” [Zâd al-Mâ`âd: (3/286)]

2. Other scholars said what is mentioned in the hadîth is abrogated, according to the prohibition of mutilation.

Accordingly, what took place in this hadîth was abrogated. This was adopted by al-Bukhârî. He narrated from Qatâdah that: “It is been narrated to us from the Prophet (peace be upon him) after that the Prophet (peace be upon him) encouraged charity and prohibited mutilation.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî (4192)].

It was narrated by Qatâdah through Muhammad b. Sîrîn that this took place before the revelation on the ruling of punishments. [Sahîh al-Bukhârî (5686)]

Al-Hâzimî said: “This hadîth was abrogated” and he set a chapter “Mutilation and its abrogation”. He said: “A group of people adopted the opinion that these ruling were fixed in the beginning and then were abrogated when Allah sent: “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger…” [Sûrah al-Mâ’dah: 33]

[Al-I`tibâr fi al-Nâsikh wa al-Mansûkh, page 196].

It could be that this severe punishment was at the beginning because the Prophet (peace be upon him) knew that some of the tough and hardened Bedouins who live around Madînah would not refrain from attacking others unless they heard of some of these severe punishments. The desert Bedouins living in the surrounding wilderness were warlike tribes used to toughness and to causing harassment. Allah says: “The dwellers of the desert are very hard in unbelief and hypocrisy, and more disposed not to know the limits of what Allah has revealed to His Messenger; and Allah is Knowing, Wise” [Sûrah al-Tawbah: 97] (IslamToday fatwa service)


Therefore, the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) did not punish them any more than the harm they inflicted upon the sheperd and the Muslim community. He also sent a strong message to other desert tribes who were accustomed to raiding and attacking nearby villages and tribes. This punishment was done for the security of the Muslim community, living in a very dangerous time with no formal legal system governing the arabian tribes. The situation is incomparable to modern times where governments have strong control over their territories - in arabia there existed a tribalistic anarchy.
As Shaykh Muhammad 'Ata Al Sid Sid Ahmad writes:

When the criminals of 'Urainah betrayed the community of Madinah which had met them with all love and respect -- by torturing and killing the herder of their camels and escaping with the Muslim's camels as their booty -- the Prophet quickly marshalled all his powers, arrested and dealt with them in the severest manner as the law allowed him. (Al-Sid, Islamic Criminal Law: The Hudud; Malaysia, Eagle Trading Sdn. Bhd., 1995, p. 132)

It should also be noted that many critics of the punishments in Islam are themselves believers in an afterlife in which people will be punished for their crimes, often with eternal torment in Hell. Eternal torment is far more servere than any temporary punishment delivered in this life. The punishments prescribed in Islam are intended to purify the offender of their sin in order that they may be saved from a far greater punishment in the next life. It seems that when one defers a punishment to the afterlife, there is a subconcious belief that such a punishment is not as "real" and consequently it is not as bothering to sentence someone to eternal torture in Hell as it is to prescribe a painful punishment here and now. Such thinking is inherently flawed.

Some writers have also claimed that the punishment delivered to the Ukil/Urayna tribe was prescribed for their apostasy. This is clearly rejected by the text of the hadith as well as the consensus of all Muslim jurists. Shaykh Muhammad S. Al-Awa explains this as well:

On the other hand, the prevalent view among Muslim jurists is that the case of this group of 'Ukal and 'Urayna was a case of hiraba (armed robbery) and it was for this crime that they were punished (fn. See Tabari, Tafsir, vol. VI, pp. 132-146; Ibn al-Qayyim, Zad al-Ma'ad, vol. III, p. 78; Ibn Hajar, Fath Al-Bari, where he criticises Bukhari's view). The text itself demonstrates this very clearly. (El-Awa, Punishment in Islamic Law; US American Trust Publications, 1993, p. 51)

To conclude, this narration refers to an event of Hiraabah (armed robbery), where the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) implemented the law of Qisas (retribution), and the offendors were punished exactly as they had punished the sheperd. The Prophet did not exceed this limit at all in his prescribed punishment, but rather purified the offenders so that the punishment in the next life would be averted.


http://www.islamicboard.com/364582-post22.html

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 280:

When the tribe of Bani Quraiza was ready to accept Sad's judgment, Allah's Apostle sent for Sad who was near to him. Sad came, riding a donkey and when he came near, Allah's Apostle said (to the Ansar), "Stand up for your leader." Then Sad came and sat beside Allah's Apostle who said to him. "These people are ready to accept your judgment(verdict)." Sad said. "I give the judgment that their warriors should be killed and their children and women should be taken as prisoners."

There is no mercy or compassion illustrated in these passages.. Muhammad had overtaken these people, meaning captured them and they were awaiting their fate. He ordered all the men to be killed and women and children to be imprisoned.
?????

The reason why Banu Quraydha was executed was because they commited treason, when 10,000 strong [From Quraysh, Ghattafaan etc.] were fighting the muslims (who ere about 3000 in number), the Banu Quraydha who had a treaty with the muslims in Medina broke it off at that moment in time, and were supplying the enemy while planning on killing the muslim women, children and elders while the muslim men defended their city, while even defending the jews who lived there! male and female.


By the will of Allaah, Allaah provided a way out for the muslims by sending a strong wind which lead to the tribes of Quraysh and Ghattafaan to leave the siege which they had started themselves around Medina. It lasted for about a month. Then who was left? It was the tribe of Banu Quraydha themselves, as they lived in Medina. They had commited treason, hence the punishment should be equal to the crime.


What happens next?

The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) asks Sa'ad ibn Mu'aadh to give judgement to the Banu Quraydha [who used to be former allies with Sa'ad ibn Mu'aadh when islaam hadn't entered Medina] - the Jews of Banu Quraydah agreed that Sa'ad could be the one to make the ruling because they felt he would be flexible with them due to the fact that they were allies in the past. However, Sa'ad ibn Mu'aadh ordered that their men be executed and their women and children be enslaved. Why? Because that was the same intention of the Banu Quraydha themselves. So the punishment is equal to the crime.

Reading the context of the hadith is important, and that won't be found on anti islamic sites i assure you. :)

[- Qatada -]

Totally agree ^


The reason why the punishments were applied are already stated in the article, but again - they'll probably ignore this.

It could be that this severe punishment was at the beginning because the Prophet (peace be upon him) knew that some of the tough and hardened Bedouins who live around Madînah would not refrain from attacking others unless they heard of some of these severe punishments. The desert Bedouins living in the surrounding wilderness were warlike tribes used to toughness and to causing harassment. Allah says: “The dwellers of the desert are very hard in unbelief and hypocrisy, and more disposed not to know the limits of what Allah has revealed to His Messenger; and Allah is Knowing, Wise” [Sûrah al-Tawbah: 97] (IslamToday fatwa service)

We know many situations when the Messenger of Allaah forgave, and was kind to the people:


Anas said,

"I served the Messenger of Allah for ten years, and he never said a word of displeasure to me (Uff), nor did he ever say to me concerning something I had done: `Why did you do that' And he never said to me concerning something I had not done: `Why didn't you do this' He had the best character, and I never touched any silk or anything else that was softer than the palm of the Messenger of Allah . And I never smelled any musk or perfume that had a better fragrance than the sweat of the Messenger of Allah.'' Imam Al-Bukhari recorded that Al-Bara' said, "The Messenger of Allah had the most handsome face of all the people, and he had the best behavior of all of the people. And he was not tall, nor was he short.''



So we'll wait for westcoast to answer our questions first. :)

[Keltoi]

Obviously, as a Christian I find Jesus Christ to be the ultimate role model for man and woman. Christ's message is one of love and forgiveness, which in my opinion is what all men and women should strive to bring into their lives. I don't know enough about Muhammed to judge his morality, but I do know that Jesus Christ never killed anyone or ordered any to be killed.

[westcoast]

So is this disput about which is worse, Muhammad or Moses?
Guess I just don't understand. I will go back to my corner and just watch.

This is very simple
To Christians, Jesus is the most revered personage in their religion
To Muslims, Muhammad is the most revered prophet
etc

Christians follow the examples put forth by Jesus.
Muslims " " by Muhammad.

Instead of focusing on those 2 facts, this out of control kid sami goes and quotes things from the book of deutoronomy to try and negate what i say ( a book they will again use to for their own cause in trying to prove that it prophesied muhammad)
Hadiths, as they claim, are the acts of the prophet Muhammad. Read what is in them and you see his actions. How simple is that to follow?
There are stories of killing and what not, as they are defending above. Your most revered prophet killed people, no matter how u look at it.
Jesus didn't.

That is all that i am saying.

[Muhammad]

Greetings and :sl: ,

I am sorry but posts were deleted due to the fact that they were going off topic and insults were being used. There is no need for any of this to occur - please read the forum rules if you are unsure as to what is acceptable and what isn't.

The Qu'ran is complete, perfect, without flaw and easy to understand (all claims made regarding the Qu'ran) yet the Hadiths, books recollecting the life of Muhammad are "necessary" for one to understand it?

First of all, the hadeeth are not simply restricted to being "stories" as some like to call them. They also contain rulings and explanations that the Prophet (peace be upon him) gave. It is important to note that these were also inspired by Allaah (swt), yet the wording is from the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), thus making them different from the Qur'an. This is why it is important to take from both the Qur'an and the hadeeth, as they explain each other and go hand-in-hand.

Secondly, you are quite right that the Qur'an is easy to understand, perfect, without flaw and complete. Anyone who approaches it with a pure heart, seeking guidance, shall find it by the will of Allaah. However, someone who studies the knowledge of the Qur'an and the hadeeth explaining the Qur'an will benefit to a much greater degree and will be in a position to derive rulings from the Qur'an, in contrast to the layman who is not. This is because there are many aspects of the Qur'an that the layman will not know of, such as the events or references for which each verse was revealed and explaining what is meant by words that have multiple meanings. Since Allaah (swt) uses the most clear, eloquent and concise language, the meaning of the Qur'an is clear to those who are well-grounded in the Arabic language, but not so clear to those that are not, hence another reason why further study is required to better grasp the intended meanings. There are so many other things with regards to the Qur'an, that there is a whole science dedicated to its interpretation.

What i've found in many hadiths are some very unappealing events involving Muhammad, that i'm sure you're aware of hence mine and others weariness of believing as him as a perfect example for people to live their lives by.

There are many misquoted narrations that people like to use to defame Islam. Many of these have already been addressed on the forum, as well as on the sister site I gave you earlier:

http://www.load-islam.com/wel_islam.php?topic_id=2

Muhammad (peace be upon him) was indeed the perfect example for people to follow: there are countless accounts of his life and character that demonstrate this. More information can be found here and here. Judging by a few misquoted narrations, however, is not a proper way to gain an understanding.

I would advise that if you have any questions, you ask them in the appropriate thread if they have not already been answered, and that you avoid reading and pasting material from anti-Islamic sites as this will be removed.

Thank you.

[YusufNoor]

yea do provide that link you speak of, because up to now i have no understanding as to why the hadiths are even needed. my belief is that the qu'ran alone should be enough, given that it is the word of Alllah, and if it is in fact his word would he not make it understandable for those who wish to read it?
and i live in Northern California.
peace

:sl:

greetings of Peace westcoast,

here's the link:

http://www.pleasantviewschool.com/me...t%20%28pbuh%29

i understand what you mean, but let me refer you to an hadith by A' isha(ra) wife of the Messenger(pbuh) and daughter of Abu Bakr As Saddiq(ra); when asked to describe the Prophet(pbuh), A'isha said: one word, the living Qur'an that's not verbatum, one of the smarter brothers or sisters here may be able to give you the source [it's in the Seerah, though]

actually, the Seerah and reasons for revelation are, imho, absolutely fantastic. there's another online Seerah, Shayk Hamzah Yusuf did a two week course on Martin Ling's book Muhammad His Life Based on the Earliest Sources. i actually bought the cd's before i read the book, but have now read the book as well. both are recommended.

i also stumbled upon Mufti Ismail Menk's Reasons of Revelation of Verses of the Noble Qur'an, based upon Asbabun Nuzool by Allamah Waahidi. the Mufti is now my favorite scholar and i pick up everything by him that i can.

combining the works of Mufti Menk and Seerah have been a near full time endeavor with countless rewards. the Qur'an really starts to come alive and make perfect sense and also answers alot of questions.

forgive me for not reading the rest of the thread, as it's about time to get ready for Asr.

:w:

Yusuf

[westcoast]

Greetings and :sl: ,

I am sorry but posts were deleted due to the fact that they were going off topic and insults were being used. There is no need for any of this to occur - please read the forum rules if you are unsure as to what is acceptable and what isn't.

First of all, the hadeeth are not simply restricted to being "stories" as some like to call them. They also contain rulings and explanations that the Prophet (peace be upon him) gave. It is important to note that these were also inspired by Allaah (swt), yet the wording is from the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), thus making them different from the Qur'an. This is why it is important to take from both the Qur'an and the hadeeth, as they explain each other and go hand-in-hand.

Secondly, you are quite right that the Qur'an is easy to understand, perfect, without flaw and complete. Anyone who approaches it with a pure heart, seeking guidance, shall find it by the will of Allaah. However, someone who studies the knowledge of the Qur'an and the hadeeth explaining the Qur'an will benefit to a much greater degree and will be in a position to derive rulings from the Qur'an, in contrast to the layman who is not. This is because there are many aspects of the Qur'an that the layman will not know of, such as the events or references for which each verse was revealed and explaining what is meant by words that have multiple meanings. Since Allaah (swt) uses the most clear, eloquent and concise language, the meaning of the Qur'an is clear to those who are well-grounded in the Arabic language, but not so clear to those that are not, hence another reason why further study is required to better grasp the intended meanings. There are so many other things with regards to the Qur'an, that there is a whole science dedicated to its interpretation.

There are many misquoted narrations that people like to use to defame Islam. Many of these have already been addressed on the forum, as well as on the sister site I gave you earlier:

http://www.load-islam.com/wel_islam.php?topic_id=2

Muhammad (peace be upon him) was indeed the perfect example for people to follow: there are countless accounts of his life and character that demonstrate this. More information can be found here and here. Judging by a few misquoted narrations, however, is not a proper way to gain an understanding.

I would advise that if you have any questions, you ask them in the appropriate thread if they have not already been answered, and that you avoid reading and pasting material from anti-Islamic sites as this will be removed.

Thank you.

calling the hadiths stories doesnt necessarily carry negative connotations. but if u took that from my post then i apologize.
secondly, im not "copy and pasting" things from anti-islamic sites, in fact as i stated before the first mention of not accepting the hadiths came from my friend and his family, after which i searched online and found a muslim man who has written and researched extensively on the topic and there are many muslims who now only refer to the Qu'ran, consequently referring themselves as "Qu'ran-only Muslims" proclaiming that the Qu'ran, the word of Allah alone is enough and not dependent of any additional literature.
Also, if you wish, i will provide a link or the name of this guy so you can see for yourself where i am getting my information; but there is a warning on his website that some of the material might be harmful or offensive etc so this is why i dont post it now.
And i know that im probably beating a dead horse with this question, but would you say that Muhammad's example to humanity was greater than Jesus' example?

peace

[YusufNoor]

calling the hadiths stories doesnt necessarily carry negative connotations. but if u took that from my post then i apologize.
secondly, im not "copy and pasting" things from anti-islamic sites, in fact as i stated before the first mention of not accepting the hadiths came from my friend and his family, after which i searched online and found a muslim man who has written and researched extensively on the topic and there are many muslims who now only refer to the Qu'ran, consequently referring themselves as "Qu'ran-only Muslims" proclaiming that the Qu'ran, the word of Allah alone is enough and not dependent of any additional literature.
Also, if you wish, i will provide a link or the name of this guy so you can see for yourself where i am getting my information; but there is a warning on his website that some of the material might be harmful or offensive etc so this is why i dont post it now.
And i know that im probably beating a dead horse with this question, but would you say that Muhammad's example to humanity was greater than Jesus' example?

peace

:sl:

Peace West Coast,

i would answer yes. Isa/Jesus(as)'s term of Prophethood, according to the NT was much shorter than Muhammad(pbuh)'s, by 20 years.

in the life of Jesus, there' no real info on how to run a country or fight a war. in fact, if you lived by the words of Jesus you'ld probably be dead![which, btw, is a plausable reason for lack of source documentation]

IF, however, you choose to listen to the Seearah, my experience was one of "finally finding evidence of one who lived as Jesus taught"!!

granted, after Hijra and permission to fight was granted. things got different, but the Rasulullah's personal life and leadership strikes me a pinpoint "Christianity". in fact, if you combine Moses(as), Abraham(as) & Jesus(as) you get Muhammad(SAWS)!

you should listen!

:w:

[Muslim Woman]

I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

&&

.... "Qu'ran-only Muslims" proclaiming that the Qu'ran, the word of Allah alone is enough and not dependent of any additional literature.

-----In Quran , God told us to worship One God & listen to the Prophet of God who informed us about the Almighty & showed us how to offer worship.



In Quran , some matters are not described in details ; so we need to look in Hadith to know more about it. Few examples: Muslims are ordered to offer daily prayers but the number 5 is not mentioned in Quran. As the holy Prophet (p) made 5 times compulsory prayers & explained it , we need to follow that.

How to offer prayer ? We need to read hadith.


God commanded to give zakat/charity but amount is not mentioned. So , we have to depend on hadith.

... would you say that Muhammad's example to humanity was greater than Jesus' example?

---In Quran , God forbade us -Muslims- to compare Prophets (pbut) , we MUST respect them ALL.

It's the God Almighty who gave much honour to one than the other , but we ---ordinary Muslims must not say anything that degrades any Prophet . I will Insha Allah try to find that specific verse for u :)


here it is :p


We have made some of these apostles to excel the others among them are they to whom Allah spoke, and some of them He exalted by (many degrees of) rank........chapter 2. verse 253


To those who believe in Allah and His Messengers and make no distinction between any of the Messengers, We shall soon give their due rewards (An-Nisaa’ 4:152)

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

calling the hadiths stories doesnt necessarily carry negative connotations. but if u took that from my post then i apologize.

Thank you for clarifying that. You are correct that some hadeeth are much like stories, and I wanted to further point out that they have a purpose and are not merely for entertainment.

secondly, im not "copy and pasting" things from anti-islamic sites, in fact as i stated before the first mention of not accepting the hadiths came from my friend and his family, after which i searched online and found a muslim man who has written and researched extensively on the topic

Firstly, it is good that you decided to do your own research to verify what your friend has said, but you must very cautious about what you find on the internet as it is sometimes very difficult to distinguish authentic information from false. Many may claim to have "researched extensively" on a topic, but that does not mean we are obliged to take their word for it, especially when there is extensive evidence to prove they are wrong. Rather we should read the works of people whom we trust and are well-known for their study of the religion.

and there are many muslims who now only refer to the Qu'ran, consequently referring themselves as "Qu'ran-only Muslims" proclaiming that the Qu'ran, the word of Allah alone is enough and not dependent of any additional literature.

Unfortunately, there are indeed such Muslims who have little understanding on this issue. Please refer to the threads I linked you to earlier, and the following link, which explain why such a view is clearly wrong: http://www.islamicboard.com/sects-di...quranites.html

You may also be interested to browse through this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ct-hadith.html

Also, if you wish, i will provide a link or the name of this guy

There is no need to post it, so you were right not to do so.

And i know that im probably beating a dead horse with this question, but would you say that Muhammad's example to humanity was greater than Jesus' example?

It is not a question of which was greater, as we respect both of them as being Prophets of Allaah and possessing great qualities in character. Jesus was sent to his people of that time, yet the Prophet sent to our people until the Day of Resurrection is Muhammad (peace be upon him). Therefore we are obliged to follow his example and the law that he came with, and this has been explained in great detail and preserved in the Qur'an and the Sunnah, unlike the example of Jesus which is not preserved in as great detail.

Peace :).

[westcoast]

i got some links to read and research, thanks for your responses. i'll be back in a week cuz im goin to vacation for spring break

peace.-

[- Qatada -]

Have a good holiday! :) take care God willing.


Peace.